next on "meet the press," another summertime showdown between the white house and congress. house speaker john boehner accusing the president of overstepping his authority and says he'll sue. >> they are going to sue me for doing my job. >> with me this morning, the chair of the republican party, reince priebus. plus, my newsmaking interview with former president, bill clinton. his strong defense of hillary clinton and harsh words for dick cheney about iraq. and what does one of president obama's closest advisers think about the prospect of hillary clinton running for president? unique insights as our cynthia mcfadden gets rare, behind the scenes access at the white house. from nbc news in washington,

this is "meet the press" with david gregory. good sunday morning, we want to begin now with this increasingly bitter divide here in washington. will speaker boehner's planned lawsuit over executive power end any hope of action during the remainder of president obama's term? our congressional correspondent, kelly o'donnell, brings us up to date. >> reporter: a fractured relationship that once displayed at least fleeting moments of public friendship, from their one-time-only golf outing to warm praise for family roots. >> how the son of a barkeep is speaker of the house. >> reporter: and soon, chief litigant? a new fissure broke open over the constitutional boundaries of the president's job description. >> today in america -- >> reporter: but in january the president made clear he wasn't going to let congress get in the way of what he called his year of action. >> wherever and whenever i can take steps without legislation to expand opportunity for more american families, that's what i'm going to do. >> morning, everyone. >> reporter: speaker john

boehner says some of the president's executive orders and regulatory moves cross the line. >> the constitution makes it clear that a president's job is to faithfully execute the laws. in my view, the president has not faithfully executed the laws. >> reporter: the house is expected to vote to authorize a lawsuit next month. aides cite the president's changes to various fixed deadlines written into the health care law as an example of overreach, but one branch of government suing another is rare. >> so, there's a high bar for boehner to meet, but we don't know yet what he is going to be suing over and whether he has found some legal, technical point on which he can succeed. >> reporter: attempting to dismiss the case himself, the president used a tv interview -- >> the suit is a stunt. >> reporter: -- and a road trip to push back. >> they've decided they're going to sue me for doing my job. >> reporter: congress already headed home for the july 4th break and with just 16 legislative days left until a

five-week august recess, there is little time left in this election year to repair the damage of discord. for "meet the press," kelly o'donnell, nbc news, washington. >> with me now in her first television appearance since stepping down from her role as the president's lawyer, i'm joined now by former white house council, kathy ruemmler. good to have you here. >> thank you. >> does the speaker have a point or is this just politics? >> well, david, look, obviously, this is just for show. the -- there is a concept in litigation called standing, which i've heard some people talk about in connection with this proposed lawsuit. and what basically that means is you have to show some kind of concrete injury. and you know, speaker boehner i think knows that as well as anybody. i don't think the congress can show any injury here. congress has a lot of tools available to it to challenge the president if, you know, it disagrees with things that he is doing, most importantly the power of the purse, but, you know, a lawsuit is -- to say it's frivolous i think is an understatement.

>> do you think they side step this and actually pursue impeachment? >> well, i think that's -- that's -- would be extreme. and obviously, completely unwarranted. the president has said that he is going to act where he can and the emphasis on where he can. and you know, the first thing that the president would ask and would instruct his lawyers, including myself and the lawyers at the justice department, is do i have the legal authority to take this action? and he takes that responsibility very seriously. >> but if you look at some of the executive action that is are cited here, we'll put them up on the screen, kelly o'donnell mentioned the affordable care act and extending the employer mandate, illegal immigrants who came here as children to stay in the u.s., increasing the minimum wage for federal contractors, having thee pa set carbon limits for new power plants. here the supreme court hands down a decision saying the president overstepped his authority with fegeffect to rec appointments, why does the house speaker take some solace and say

the president overstepped his bounds. >> well, first of all, the speaker hasn't actually said what he intends to sue the president over. i think that's pretty telling. to come out with guns blazing and say i'm going to sue you, but i haven't figured out why yet is a little bit odd to say the least. and i think is pretty suggestive that this is just for show when it's opportunistic in an election year. >> so much going on legally. this weekend, abu khattala, ahmed abu khattala, arrested in connection with the bombing, arraigned this weekend, an nushl unusual move in washington, d.c. you have heard the criticism, why not put him before a military commission, why not put him in guantanamo bay, rather in a civilian proceeding? >> david, the federal courts have many, many, many, many years of history, including dealing with terrorist suspects. the federal courts do these cases well. the prosecutors know how to bring them. it's a tried and true system. it works. it's been shown to work over and

over again in this administration and in prior administrations. >> but is he a real ringleader or a lower level guy we are spending a lot of attention on instead of getting somebody bigger in these attacks? >> i think we will have to wait and see what the justice department's case reveals as it proceeds through the system. but i can tell you if the justice department has indicted him and arraigned him, they believe they can prove his guilt beyond a reasonable doubt and i expect that's what they will do. >> more from you on our round table in a couple minutes. thanks very much. hillary clinton isn't even a presidential candidate yet, but she is already playing defense about the her wealth. in a minute you will see my exclusive interview with her husband, the former president, bill clinton. but first, here's our political director, chuck todd, with more on how this issue is playing with americans. >> reporter: hillary clinton crisscrossing the country, testing out themes for a white house run, but also trying to sell books. >> sign some books. >> reporter: she reportedly drew a multimillion dollar advance and has been commanding over $200,000 per appearance on the speaking circuit. >> hard choices were made. >> reporter: the clintons have

accumulated enormous wealth, estimated at over $100 million. it's hard to believe they were once technically in the poor house. >> we came out of the white house not only dead broke but in debt. >> it is factually true that we were several million dollars in debt. >> reporter: criticized for how she described her own wealth, mrs. clinton tried to walk back the dead broke comment. >> my inartful use of those few words doesn't change who i am, what i've stood for my entire life, what i stand for today. >> reporter: but her struggles to answer the money question exposed a potential vulnerability for her 2016 bid. >> any time you're able to define your opponent as out of touch, it's potentially lethal in american politics. we certainly did that very effectively to john kerry in the bush campaign. it was done effectively to al gore. it was done effectively to mitt romney. >> reporter: the near-term concern for some clinton supporters is making sure she doesn't look out of touch with her own party, especially over the issue of income inequality. >> americans don't mind wealthy people.

what they do mind are wealthy people who they think are gaming the system or are taking advantage of things they don't have access for. >> reporter: back in 2007, candidate barack obama effectively portrayed hillary clinton as out of touch, making this point about the struggles he and michelle had. >> it wasn't that long ago that we were living in a small condo and it was getting too small for our kids, that they were trying to figure out how to save money for our children's college education, paying off student loans. >> and that was barack obama saying why he would never run for president in 2016 had he lost in 2008. david, we have a new nbc news/"wall street journal"/annenberg poll, asked whether the way hillary clinton has been in a bubble with secret service protection, her wealth, whether that means she can connect with average americans. 55% say despite all of that, they believe she is in touch with average americans, that's a pretty good number for her. >> time for her to work through all of this before -- and if she does become a candidate, chuck, thank you so much.

now, go to my exclusive interview with president clinton this week in denver at the annual meeting of the clinton global initiative america. we first talked about income inequality and the challenges facing the american economy. then i asked him about secretary clinton's handling of all these questions about their wealth. you understand some people have been critical of mrs. clinton, secretary clinton, who initially had to explain talking about being dead broke coming out of the white house or said it in an interview that you -- >> i might understand it differently than you do. [ laughter ] look, you're in politics. one of the things that's challenge for us is that somebody's always trying to change the subject. and the subject is how can we get this economy going? how can it work? and one of the things that we forget is -- she was joking about it the other day, half the time somebody asking her a question couldn't even vote when we were -- when i was president.

and so you have to live in the moment, not with memory. it is factually true that we were several million dollars in debt. everybody now assumes that what happened in the intervening years was automatic. i'm shocked that it's happened. i'm shocked that people still want me to come give talks. and so i'm grateful. >> but when you say you paid ordinary taxes, secretary clinton did, unlike other people who are really well off, paid taxes, maybe just off capital gains, can you understand as a political matter that could strike people as being out of touch? >> yeah, but she's not out of touch and she advocated and worked as a senator for things that were good for ordinary people and before that, all her life, and the people asking her questions should put this into some sort of context. i remember when we were in law school. she was out trying to get legal assistance for poor people. i remember she was working on

trying to -- believing in paid leave for pregnant mothers in the 1970s. it's -- so, i think if you don't give the most adept answer to a question because you immediately remember what you felt like the day we left as opposed to what it looks like to everybody else now who is having trouble, you can say, okay, i got to clean that up, which she did. >> the reaction, bottom line, before i move on, the reaction to this you think has been unfair? >> no, i don't want to -- you get to decide what's fair. you get to decide what -- we have the first amendment. what i'm saying is the debate's the wrong debate. you need to be able to show by their policies and their statements about current conditions how candidates of both parties across the spectrum feel about the central challenge of our time, which is the demise of the american dream and the loss of our leadership as the most successful middle-class

country in the world and the idea that now, after -- i think i had the lowest net worth of any american president in the 20th century when i took office. but i still could have been tone deaf. and you know, now i don't, and we have got a good life and i'm grateful for it. but i still -- we go to our local grocery store on the weekend. we talk to people in our town. we know what's going on. the real issue is if you've been fortunate enough to be successful, are you now out of touch and insensitive to the agonizing struggles other people are facing? that's the real issue. >> the real issue you talk about as well is some of this pain people feeling in the middle class, a sense that the american dream is slipping away. 3.4 million americans out of work for six months-plus, you have over 7 million who by their

own admission are stuck in lower paying jobs, part-time jobs. how can a democratic candidate for president -- what challenges would a democratic candidate for president face running on the obama economy? >> well, first of all, that's not what anybody should do. you should run on making it better. but he didn't cause the meltdown. the actions that his administration took kept it from being worse. and there had been a concerted effort to stop implementing his economic plan in the second term so none of you have any idea whether it would have worked or not. >> but you don't lay this at speaker boehner, at the republicans uniquely, do you? do you really think it's their opposition to the president that has forced him to have such impediments to get the economy growing again?

>> no. we do have -- keep in mind, the average crash takes ten years to get over, has always. we got the jobs back in about six years. we now got to get the incomes up. i believe -- let me just put it this way, i believe if the two branches had been working smoothly together and taking advantage of this time when interest rates were lower than inflation to cut long-term spending liabilities, but invest now in modern infrastructure, we would be in a lot better shape. i think median wages would be going up. i think poverty would be going down. that is not what the republicans believe. the republicans believe government would -- always mess up a two-car parade unless it's something they want to spend money on, in washington i'm talking about, and they just wanted to cut everything and not invest any money in the things that at least i believe are important. we need to try to get back to

working together again. no, i'm not blaming them entirely. i mean, i -- you tell me, mr. mccarthy from california, i like him, the fellow that was just elected to -- >> kevin mccarthy. >> i like him. i had a great visit with him at the inauguration. so what's the first thing he does after he becomes the number two guy in the house leadership? what is the very first thing he does? he changes his position on whether we're going to fund the export/import bank because the conservative populists say, oh, that's just a wall street crony capitalism deal. that's not a wall street crony capitalism device. that's a financing device that aloys us aallows us to compete with the 60 other countries in the world who are trying to save jobs in

their countries and they help finance exports. >> i want to ask you about global leadership in the world. iraq is back, unfortunately, a terror threat from this group known as isis is back and perhaps poses a -- the biggest threat we have seen to the west and to the united states since al qaeda in afghanistan. the former vice president, dick cheney, said president obama in an op-ed, that claims that alexander is decimated is clearly not true, that, in fact, al qaeda is in the march, is on the march. the argument that america's less safe under president obama. do you believe dick chain nay is a credible critic on these matters? [ laughter ] >> i believe if they hadn't gone to war in iraq, none of this would be happening. [ applause ] so i think -- >> wouldn't be happening in syria, there wouldn't be terrorist actors? >> it might be happening in syria, but what happened in syria wouldn't have happened in iraq. iraq would not have been, in effect, drastically altered, as it has been, but mr. cheney has been incredibly adroit for the last six years or so, attacking

the administration for not doing an adequate job of cleaning up the mess that he made. [ laughter ] and i think it's unseemly. i give president bush a lot of credit for trying to stay out of this debate and letting other people work through it. >> one of the issues about america's role in the world is if we pursue a lighter footprint going into places, intervening that which we leave behind can become chaotic, it becomes a question of what responsibility does the united states have to be part of that future of a country? this goes to iraq. i've always believed that is as the larger question about benghazi. you understand the political question about benghazi, in many ways, some tried to make it about secretary clinton and her tenure. rand paul, on the program, i may run for president in 2016, called it disqualifying for secretary clinton. you have a response for that? >> well, let's go back to the first question, because it's serious. that's not a serious comment, it's sort of a serious question.

rand paul -- when ten different instances occurred when president bush was in office where american diplomatic personnel were killed around the world, how many outraged republican members of congress were there? zero. >> most formidable republican who could run for president, in your judgment? >> if i knew, i wouldn't say. why would i encourage him? [ laughter ] unless -- >> you're so good at handicapping that side though. >> unless i thought it would cause that person to lose the nomination, i would announce it in a heartbeat. >> you're just a bit player as to whether secretary clinton runs? >> that's exactly what i am. i'm a foot soldier in an army. i will do what i am instructed to do. [ laughter ] and -- no, look, you know, it's funny. you reach our age, you just look at it differently. we have had wonderful lives.

we have been incredibly blessed. and we're looking forward to being grandparents. and i'm -- i'm for -- you know i've said, i said in 2008, i have said it every chance anybody has given me, of all the people i've ever worked with, i think she's got -- i think the most gifted public servant i have ever worked with, even if we are married. that's what i believe. and i believed it when we were going out together. and i believed it when i asked her to marry me and she said no. nothing's changed my opinion in more than 40 years. but it has to be her decision. and i agree with what she said, the most important thing is not do you want the job or can you win. the most important thing is why do you want the job and what do you propose to do if you get it and how are you going to communicate that to the american people? that's the only thing that really matters. >> we are in denver, i got to

ask this last question. back in the '60s there that was saying "give peace a chance." i'm wondering if you think now it is time to give pot a chance. would it actually help government raise revenue and deal with some of the things you're dealing with here in cgi? >> rocky mountain high? [ laughter ] i -- look, the -- i think there's a lot of evidence to argue for the medical marijuana thing. i think there are a lot of unresolved questions. but i think we should leave it to the states. this really is a time when there should be laboratories of democracy because nobody really knows where this is going. are there adequate quality controls? there's pot and there's pot. what's in it? what's going to happen? there are all these questions, and i think that i like where it is now. if the state wants to try it, they can. and then they will be able to see what happens. >> mr. president, thank you very

much. >> thank you. [ applause ] thank you. >> we will show you more of my interview with president clinton and a special panel i moderated discussing the economic challenges facing the country later in the program. i'm joined by reince priebus, chairman of the republican national committee. mr. chairman, welcome back to the program. >> good morning, david. >> a lot to get to how on politics, for you to respond to, the former president. let's talk about this wealth issue. is this an issue, is this an impediment for hillary clinton's candidacy? >> i think it's an impediment because of, number one, how they earned their money, how they talk about their money. obviously, i don't think there's a problem with people being rich in this country. >> mitt romney didn't lose because he was wealthy, did he? >> no, but i think when you are perceived as being out of touch with people that are struggling, with people that are out there working hard, i don't think flying on private jets and collecting $250,000 for a speech is considered to be hard work. and so, people respect folks that earn their money and work

hard and they become rich, but when you talk about being dead broke and when you try to make believe that you understand how average people live but you made $105 million giving speeches, i think people are tired of this show, quite frankly. i heard the interview. i think there's -- >> the show meaning what, the clintons? >> hillary fatigue already out there, it's setting in. people are tired of this story and i just happen to believe that this early run for the white house is going to come back and bite them and it already is. people are tired of it. >> you sound a little bit like barbara bush. would you have that same message for jeb bush? >> i don't think jeb and the bushes are being as obnoxious about all of this. you have bill clinton chastising dick cheney for speaking opinion while bill clinton is out there speaking about his opinions on every subject there is under the sun. these guys are hypocrites. >> i'm not going to ask you to

relitigate the benghazi debate, but i do ask whether there is an emerging republican foreign policy you think is distinct from how democrats pursue foreign policy. >> well, i mean, listen, as party chairman, you know i don't get into foreign policy that much, obviously, not into those rooms. >> always a first time. >> i understand that i think maybe the difference has been that the republicans have been far more willing to be proactive earlier in avoiding some of these conflicts from occurring where it seems like the president has been hesitant, procrastinating, putting red lines on the map. >> some might say that's more prudent than running into conflict without asking the hard questions. >> right. in the case of the president, he projected a red line. the red line was crossed, he didn't do anything about it now he's going back and starting to try to do things. >> all the chemical weapons were removed from syria. >> maybe two or three years earlier. >> but all the chemical weapons were removed from syria. was that not an end game. >> we don't know that. you don't know that.

i don't know that nobody really knows that. my point is that this president and i think here's where we would differ, maybe not you and i but me and democrats, is that this president needs to lead on this subject, whether it be russia, whether it be syria, whether it be benghazi, all of these areas. i mean, something has to go right. everything can't go wrong. you know, sort of like a multiple choice test. it's hard to get all the questions right, but it's also pretty hard to get them all wrong. but the president seems able to get all the answers wrong. >> why shouldn't americans look at this threat of a house speaker lawsuit, as the president said, as a political stunt. there's no real legal standing on behalf of an institution. the kourts are loath to get involved in two branches fighting with one another. it would take several years to resolve. isn't this just to gin up the base in some terms? >> what i see is a supreme court that 12 times over the last three years have struck down the president's overreach and growth in government, 9-0. the court just said this past week that the president overstepped his bounds which includes the president's own

appointments to the supreme court. i actually think it's exactly where we need to be. the constitution vebss power in we, the people. article one gives that power to the congress. the speaker is in charge of the house. i think he has standing. if he's helping pass laws and the president comes in and says this is the part of the law i'm going to follow, this is the part i'm not going to follow, this is where i'm going to expand government, he is overreaching and overtaking a part of the constitution he doesn't have an authority to take. >> let me ask -- >> he doesn't respect the constitution, david. >> let me ask you quickly, you have said recent that your party, the republican party, is not divided at all. i only can view that as sugar coating given eric cantor's loss, the narrow victory by thad cochran in mississippi. you have a grassroots that is really at mods r odds with the mainstream of the party and you have here in thad cochran somebody who had to rely on a republican primary, on democratic voters to prevail. how do you reconcile that? >> first of all, i think you're speaking of two races and you're

taking that and extrapolating that and placing it upon the entire republican party across the country. i come from wisconsin, totally unified. it doesn't matter who or what type of republican voter you're talking about. there is unity. you have two races that are going to be republican regardless of the outcome that are going to remain republican. you know, primaries are pretty common. i'm in favor of primaries. in the end though, david, what will happen this year is the republicans are going to add seats to the house and most people out there think that we're going to win the united states senate. so we add seats to the house. we win the u.s. senate. are we still going to be talking about the health of the republican party? >> we'll see because there's a primary fight to come in 2016 but more to come on that preponderance preince priebus. thank you. >> more on this conversation. is washington only getting worse if that's possible? republicans threatening to sue the president, anger over this ongoing irs scandal on capitol hill. the president isn't holding back his contempt for the gop.

the round table will be here to debate it all coming up next. >> they're fabricated issues, they're phony scandals that are generated. >> this administration makes the wrong decisions, then won't give the american people the straight answers. >> "meet the press" is brought to you by boeing, where the drive to build something better inspires us every day. [ laughter ] smoke? nah, i'm good. [ male announcer ] celebrate every win with nicoderm cq, the unique patch with time release smartcontrol technology

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we are back, the round table is here. a lot to get to. kathy ruemmler, white house counsel, sean duffy of wisconsin, a lot of cheese heads on the program this morning. i didn't check this in advance. nia-malika henderson, the "washington post" and andrea mitchell, chief foreign affairs correspondent. welcome to all of you. i got to start with reince priebus and hillary fatigue he

is talking about, that they are being obnoxious. the political rhetoric being ratcheted up. and the nastiness at a pretty high level when she's not even a candidate yet. >> she's not a candidate but the book tour has looked like a political campaign. i think it is a little bit that she was rusty and a little bit of lack of self-awareness when she talks about being dead broke and then tried to fix it. but still, not getting the language, you know, politically correct, if you will, to really understand that she is a little bit out of touch, despite all of her work and all of her connection to hard-working people in the middle class, she doesn't quite realize as ruth marcus wrote in the "washington post," she should stop giving paid speeches, should stop asking colleges to pay out of a foundation. she's got enough money. let it go at this stage. >> part of the idea is the politics have changed. for any establishment politician, you can be thad cochran, be hillary clinton the view of how you connect to people is changing. >> that's right. we have seen a real wave of populism.

if you look at that cantor race in virginia, a brat was seen as a populist, someone that will throw the bums out. you look at somebody like elizabeth warren, she talks about the system being rigged against the average person and that's language that hillary clinton can't tap into. hillary clinton in her book talks about words constituting the work of diplomacy and that's something i think she forgot in this instance. she keeps going out there and talking about this. i do think this is a mini campaign. it's sort of a trial balloon. she is going to be able to see what works, where the -- >> she has got time. >> exactly. she has a lot of time. >> congressman, let me ask you, kathy ruemmler is here. she worked for the president, tries not to get in all the partisan fights, as the lawyer said, look this potential suit that the house speaker is pursuing has no standing, should be seen as beyond frivolous. what do you think? >> first of all, we have to look at what the president's doing. he is taking historic action,

never been done before, where he is waving -- waiving and suspending laws and then passing or implementing regulation that undermines the control of congress. and so if we don't step in and push back with this historic action, i think it undermines the constitutional balance. >> let's des that. how about immigration itself. you have an answer for that, right, a bill in the senate that had been passed and the house didn't move forward on immigration reform so the president is trying to move a piece of it. >> that's absolutely right. and look, the president has a a lot of discretion with a finite set of resources and to employ those resources in the way he thinks makes the most sense and, you know, i think in the immigration space, that is what he's going to continue to do. >> what if a president were president and were implementing health care and delaying certain parts of it. the hue and cry, i think, among supporters of health care law would be pretty big. >> david, i'm not sure about that. what i can say is throughout history, there have been complaints on either side of a president overreaching here and there.

this president has issued fewer executive orders than his predecessors. >> david, i think it's important to note when the president steps into a space that he hasn't gone in before, whether it is obamacare, whether it is immigration, he may not like there has not been congressional action, but he doesn't have the constitutional authority to do it on his own. he has waived the work requirements from welfare reform from 1996. if we don't again push back, you have a president who can waive laws, suspend them do this with regard with immigration, what says he can't suspend rules with regard -- >> you don't have to appropriate -- >> cut the purse strings. you could just stop the funding. that is the checks and balances. >> can he waive certain parts of the tax code if he doesn't like it? what can't he suspend or waive within the tax code or with regard to any -- >> the politics of this are such that this is not going to be resolved for several years, a lot of conservatives out there who really dislike the

president, government overreach is a great story line in the midterm races. >> it is, a great storyline for both parties, talked to democrats about this, folks in the white house as well, they see this as something that can gin up their base as well, this idea that a democratic president is embattled, his presidency is possibly in peril, something that i think you will see gin up support among that obama coalition that hasn't routinely shown up in a lot of midterm races. i think it cuts both ways. >> john boehner and barack obama theoretically could have called each other and said, here is the deal, i'll sue you and you'll begin up your base and i'll gin up my base. everybody gets political gain. >> and in politics i think it is better for obama because he needs a ginned up base. our base is already ginned up. >> fired up. >> it is the institutional argument that the speaker is making but the politics favor the president. >> kathy, can i ask you about this ongoing anger on capitol hill about the irs, missing

e-mails, lost servers, and targeting political groups. this to a lot of people is the arrogance of the irs and the incompetence of government. you were in the center of this as to white house counsel as to whether there was any wrongdoing. you are clear in saying there was none. >> david, look, there have been -- this investigation has been going on now for 13 months. there have been, you know, innumerable congressional hearings, witnesses have been intrveed, hundreds of thousands of documents have been produced, and i think the republicans on the hill have not been able to show anything to suggest that there was anything other than sort of political tone deaf psness, if you will, in terms of creating categories within the irs. it didn't go beyond that, and so, you know, the idea i think that the strategy is if you just say it enough times it will become true, that somehow this massive conspiracy of political targeting of groups, and that's just completely belied by the evidence. >> you're shaking your head.

>> first of all, the irs is targeting americans because of their political beliefs and we don't know who authorized it. >> but are they doing that or trying to prevent groups that shouldn't get tax exempt status on the left or right from getting it. >> but they targeted the left. lois lerner has thread the fifth. miraculously in the age of then sa when they have our phone records, miraculously her e-mails are gone. america has a right to know what happened with the e-mails and who is responsible for it. does it go to the administration or somewhere else, but we have to know what happened and we don't know right now. >> i think with both the va and the irs i wouldn't underestimate the incompetence -- >> yeah. >> the lack of computer 2k3w5gue and regulations -- >> a rare case -- no, no, please, it's just incompetence. >> but i would not rule out any kind of criminal issue as well. i think it is truly outrageous. they should have been able to deal with it and the fact that the white house in both cases has not is really --

>> but i think we need a special prosecutor. >> do you really want to go there? >> i think we do. if we don't figure out what happened here with the targeting, how do we prevent it in the future? this is a powerful -- >> the president is not going to go for that. >> maybe. >> david, again, we've been investigating this thing for 13 months. i have investigated a lot of matters and i can tell you that if you haven't found one piece of evidence, not an e-mail, every irs person who has been interviewed, this is according to the inspector general who is an independent inspector general at the irs, every person interviewed said this was internal to the irs. >> let me do this, a minute left. i want to get everybody on this other story from the supreme court. a lot of interesting rulings, including about our privacy which says that police don't have the right to take your cell phone from you or your smartphone and look at the contents here. i'm just wondering whether part of this is the edward snowden effect and all this attention that made the supreme court say the country is moving on this.

>> absolutely. it's also the fact that justices have smartphones which tells you something about that. but the next question is going to be if the court ruled in this way, what is the impact on the nsa down the line. very big issue. >> what does it mean for the nsa? what does it mean for cloud computing? and one of the interesting things about that judgment here was how they essentially said cell phones are our lives. they sort of constitute who we are and -- i think that was a really amazing reading there. >> we're going to leave it there for now. thanks to all of you. coming up as president obama watched the big game against germany this week on air force one, who is that watching with him? our cynthia mcfadden has rare access behind the scenes at the white house with one of the most powerful women in washington. coming up. white house with one of the >> announcer: "meet the press" is brought to you by the morgan stanley institute for sustainable investing. spokesperson: the volkswagen passat is heads above the competition,

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you may have noticed the country came to a standstill thursday as we watched u.s. soccer team's world cup game against germany. president obama was watching as well aboard air force one. on the left of your screen there, that's valerie jarrett, a long-time friend and one of obama's closest white house advisers. our cynthia mcfadden was granted unique access and spent a day behind the scenes with valerie jarrett at the white house. >> reporter: it's just after dawn at the white house and president obama's senior adviser and long-time friend, valerie jarrett, is arriving for work. so the president came into office with an astounding approval rating, and it's now down to 41%. what happened? >> look, we're going through some tough times now but i will tell you something i learned very early in the first campaign is that you just can't look at the daily polls. my goodness, if we listened to the polls, he would have abandoned the race in the middle of the primary session. >> is he losing the people? >> i don't think so.

>> reporter: today rare access inside the west wing where jerritt's office is prime real estate. >> before i was here, carl rove, and before karl rove, hillary clinton. every morning the president's briefing book is on my assistant's desk so i pick that up. >> reporter: she's known first couple since 1991 when she offered michelle robinson a job in chicago's city hall and met her then-fiance. >> start with the front page. >> reporter: on this morning she's eager to read coverage of the white house coverage of summit of working families. a rally for paid parental leave and hiking the minimum wage. >> these are common sense issues. >> reporter: one of the questions that both "the washington post" and "the new york times" raised this morning, why not back legislation then? if the administration believes this, put your money where your mouth is? >> i think we shouldn't shoot from the hip. i think what the president said is, look, let's start with the premise that every american should have paid leave and then let's have a conversation about how to get there.

>> reporter: difficult with an uncooperative congress and the president's own pledge not to raise taxes. >> our meeting starts promptly at 7:45, so i'm going to -- >> reporter: her first meeting is with the president's chief of staff. >> we'll be back soon. >> reporter: she's outlasted four other chiefs of staff, rahm emanuel, pete rouse, bill daily, and jack lew. >> it has been said that karl rove was george bush's brain and you're barack obama's spine. >> well, i think the president has a pretty sturdy spine all on his own. >> reporter: he doesn't need you for that. >> he does not need me for that one bit. >> reporter: at 8:45 she sits down with her own senior team. 36 white house staffers work for her. they discuss getting programs out, going around congress straight to the nation's mayors. then it's off to the roosevelt room. >> good morning, good morning. >> reporter: and a meeting with small business owners on how to make the workplace more family-friendly.

2:45 p.m., the first of the day's meetings with the president himself. >> good job yesterday. >> thank you. >> reporter: i want to read you some things that have been said about you. >> sure. >> you're the most powerful woman in washington and that you're like nancy reagan but with more power. what do you think of that? >> well, you know what? i think people say all kind of things about me. those are some of the more flattering things. it's all hyperbole. of course it is. we have a process by which decisions are made as a team here, and it wouldn't serve the president well if i went around that process. >> reporter: i want to talk to you about the future. is michelle obama going to run for office? >> no. >> reporter: you said that very definitively. >> i'm absolutely 100% positive that that will never happen. >> reporter: how about valerie jarrett? will you ever run for office? >> unlikely. >> reporter: but maybe. >> not as definitive as the first lady but highly unlikely.

>> reporter: the first lady said yesterday we should have a female president as soon as possible. >> absolutely, absolutely. >> there's no question that the person who is poised at this moment to break that ultimate glass ceiling is hillary clinton. >> since she hasn't even announced her candidacy i think it's premature. >> reporter: for now she's focused on building alliances with business leaders and others on a wide range of issues. even you and rupert murdoch are now breaking bread together. >> can you believe that? if anyone told me 3 5 1/2 years ago i would be having dinner with rupert murdoch and this is the second time, everybody only knows about the last time, but he's committed to immigration reform. >> reporter: despite the polls, the congress, and the ticking clock, she says there is still much that can be accomplished. >> as long as the president will have me, i will be here and i hope it's turning off the lights. >> reporter: cynthia mcfadden is with me now. it's such an interesting relationship, cynthia, that valerie jarrett has with the president, friend and confidant

and she's kind of a key voice in connecting him to the outside world beyond the white house. >> absolutely right, david. of course, one of her -- part of her portfolio is to be a bridge, to be -- to create broad alliances with the business community and state and local governments. she says shea takes that very seriously. she's working hard to bring diverse voices in the white house. one of the meetings i attended was with local business leaders from around the world who are trying to become more family-friendly. one of the business leaders said that they give every employee $3,000 every year and force them to take a family vacation with it. interesting. >> good idea. cynthia, thanks so much. and coming up here, our special panel discussion with bill clinton that you won't see anywhere else, and a fast food faux pas. how president clinton says he never gets caught in possible government overreach like president obama did. >> always successfully avoided

being photographed. no, i used to go get -- i would go get the fries right out. out of the -- >> announcer: "meet the press" is brought to you by ge. we imagine a better world, then make it real. this is interest. it says here that a woman's sex drive increases at the age of 80. helps reduce the risk of heart disease. it seems that 80 is the new 18. grannies, bless your heart, you are bringing sexy back! eat up. keep heart-healthy. live long. for a healthy heart, eat the 100% natural whole grain goodness of post shredded wheat.

time for cnbc's executive edge week ahead. brought to you by comcast business. built for business.

>> i'm andrew ross sorkin with your week ahead. on monday, we are going to find out how much general motors is going to be paying the victims of crashes linked to its faulty ignition switches. on tuesday some college costs are going up, again. that's when interest rates of federal student loans are going to be rising almost 1%. rates were set to double last year until congress reached a compromise. and then on thursday, we are going to find out how many jobs were created in the economy in june. that's your cnbc executive edge. get all your latest business news on cnbc and cnbc.com.

you saw my one-on-one interview with former president clinton from his clinton global initiative america conference in denver with 1,000 leaders from business, nonprofits, and government came together to discuss solutions for the country's economic challenges. the 42nd president joined a special panel discussion i moderated on the future of america's economy. we tackled many of the top economic challenges facing the economy, including income inequality, the minimum wage debate, and the role of government in it all. these are some of the

highlights. >> i wanted to start, we came across this picture which i think might be a startling example of government overreach. this is at chipotle -- >> it's an outrage. >> i mean, by all accounts, that's a foul, is it not? >> it's outrageous. we can't accept that. >> my boys would not do that. mr. president, way back, now you're like a model, but way back in the day when you used to go to mcdonald's, you were never gilley of an egregious act like that, were you? >> i was trying to think if i always successfully avoided being photographed committing -- no, i used to go -- i violated all the health department rules. i'd get the fries right out of the -- >> you know, where the minimum wage is is important but i don't think it's as important as what you do when someone comes into the business. the question is, is the goal of

whoever hires them, the business, to keep them at that wage or is the idea that you're going to take that person and empower that person to take advantage of opportunities so that they can rise up and have positions of leadership? >> i think there's no question that if you're making minimum wage, you think you want to make more. on the other hand, the sad truth is that raising the minimum wage will hurt those who are looking for entry level jobs. >> so i think it should be raised because i don't think that -- and i think all consumers should be prepared to pay for it because i think if somebody works full time and they have kids, they ought to be able to raise their kids without being in poverty. >> i think we have to change the frame to say, how can we be meaningful independent because that's the only way that we're going to see an economy that's sustainable. >> well, i think we're dancing around the core issue in this country, and that is growing inequality. the very idea of inequality is so problematic for public discourse in this country, but

at the core of the american dream, our narrative is the idea of social mobility. >> i don't think government can do this alone because it's a private economy, and the one thing i think that conservatives are often right about halfway is that -- i'll tell you what i mean -- is that culture really matters. >> by the way, culture matters in government, too, and it's a big unaccountable bureaucracy. >> and who had the smallest government workforce since eisenhower? me. >> that's right you declared the era of big government over. >> yeah, but not -- i didn't declare the era of weak government that had nobody at home at the s.e.c. before the financial crisis. >> i agree with that, too. i agree with that, too. >> bottom line, one thing we need to do to take a positive step toward dealing with this kind of income inequality that's really affecting workers. >> understand how talented the group of people is in the united states who don't have education and who don't have much

experience and also the immigrant population. understand how talented they are and that they have characteristics that you can't train, but they have these fundamental characteristics that will allow them to be incredibly powerful future workers in our community if we only empower them. >> i think we have to realize the era of big work is over and that people are going to be working project to project, job to job, and that is inherently nimble, but we have to imagine this in the context of the future where the question that we ask ourselves is, is this enabling people to be meaningfully independent. >> ronald reagan reminded us that the best investment we could make is in infrastructure. we desperately need a massive investment in infrastructure in this country. it creates good jobs, sustainable jobs, and it provides hope, which is at the core of the american narrative. we need hope and optimism. >> encourage main street entrepreneurialism. it has always been the hope of this country. it is still the hope of this

country. and everything that goes on in washington, complicated tax codes, complicated regulatory structures, they help big business, but they crush little business. >> we should help self-employed people and small businesses to develop creative options. there's almost no creative thinking going on here at the national level about how we instead -- the government can't regulate all this. you can't make people do the right thing, but if somebody is doing something that's really empowering people, we should think about how it can be rewarded and incentivized. >> a note, you can see the extended panel session from cgi america in denver today at 3:00 p.m. that's on msnbc. we want to continue this morning's conversation throughout the week. this week's big question is the wealth issue for hillary clinton. is it a sign of a bigger connection problem for hillary clinton as a potential candidate? weigh in @facebook.com/meetthepress. that's all for today.

we'll be back nebs wext week. have a great fourth of july holiday. if it's sunday, it's "meet the press." jishs . this is a special edition of "meet the press extra." welcome to "meet the press extra." i'm david gregory. earlier this week we traveled to denver for a meeting of the clinton global initiative america that focused on the future of the economy, including economic challenges in the country. as part of the event, i moderated a special panel discussion with the former president and national business leaders including monty moran, president of the ford foundation, darren walker, former ceo of hewlett-packard, now a global ambassador of opportunity international, carly fiorina, and also founder