let's close. introducing at&t mobile share value plans... ...with our best-ever pricing for business. no holiday this weekend when it comes to big news will poin politics. good morning. thanks for getting up with us. if you live on or near the east coast, there is a good chance you saw the fire works on thursday night, july 3, instead of the usual july 4th or maybe you're still waiting to see them tonight. but of course there are plenty of political fireworks brewing this morning. a lot of stories that everyone will be talking about all weekend long. we'll get through as many as we can. let's start with hurricane arthur itself. the reason some of those fireworks were canceled or postponed.

last night the massachusetts island of nantucket bore the bankrupt of the remaining storm as you can see, reuters headlines, winds from hurricane arthur wallop nantucket island. there a photo of what happens when a downed treat meets a mini cooper. luckily for what started out as a category 2 hurricane when it hit the outer banks, it has been downgraded to a tropical storm. there have been no reports of deaths or serious injuries. joining me to talk about this and everything else going on, we have the host of the podcast the guest, national political reporter at msnbc oig, making her "up" debut. and editorial writer robert george. let's start with the weather because it really has been the story the last couple days. there was talk a few weeks ago agree th that hurricane season wopts be

th won't be that big, but i'm thinking this will be a long year. >> i'm against it. you said downed tree and mini cooper. isn't that cnn's rating strategy? >> oh, boy. >> but i do caution everyone. i think that the in-clip nation is to blame every bit of extreme weather on global warming and there definitely is a correlation, but if you to it every time, maybe you you lose some standing. even the best weather experts will tell you you you can't necessarily do that. >> and it's the same thing as we've got warm weather -- cold weather in the middle of winter. so much for the global warming thing. we shouldn't go one incident to one incident. >> overall trends. >> so that's the story with the weather. want to get that out of the way. fortunately no deaths from arthur. i know a lot of scary pre-storm hype, but looks like nothing terrible has happened. we want to get to the big politics talker. hobby lobby decision the biggest political story of the week. certainly the one most likely to have long ranging impact.

political company reporting how religious groups are hoping to leverage their success with the lawsuit by filing more lawsuits asking the exemption for contraceptive coverage apply to them, as well. the national journal analyzed the decision saying it gets to the heart of president obama's legacy. he writes the decision of both on hobby lobby and the impasse existing between the president and congress, quote, reaffirms the gop's identity and champion of the forces most resistant to the profound demographic reshaping american life and the voice of those who most welcome these changes. and so what -- what he's getting at here, if you get away from the specifics of the ruling and sort of the more granular aspects, if you look in the big picture, this is a political fight the obama administration knew it was getting into when it instituted the contraceptive

mandate basically two years ago. and it willingly picked this political fight in part because it sensed this is a political winner. we're always telling you about these two different coalitions that have merged. one on the right, one on the left. democr democrats, the rising coalition, college educated women. and the republican coalition which is be inningly older, still extremely white. and basically saying the democrats are now making a calculation the democrats of a generation ago under bill clinton would never have made. but on these issues, being to the left on cultural issues is now a political winner and that's when you're seeing perhaps with the hobby lobby ruling immigration. >> i think that's reasonable to say. it's funny that you said this contrasts with what the democrats of the clinton era were doing because the hobby lobby decision actually comes out of a clinton era law that was passed against a supreme court -- good

>> religious freedom act. >> exactly. which passed in the democratic congress. in fact an argument could be made had that law not been passed, the hobby lobby decision -- >> that was sort of the essence of clintonism, you have these reagan democrats, white voters on cultural grounds who defected the republican party and bill clinton will win them back. he'll be tough on crime. he had somebody executed. defense of marriage act, signed that in 1996. that style of politics is going away now. >> it has gotten away, but i'm not quite so sure that the hobby lobby -- this case is the best one for -- obviously they're doing that for the democrats to kind of stand their ground. primarily because, a, you do have this law that was passed by many democrats.

and the religious freedom act on this particular area a one that -- is likely to annimate te conservative base as it is the -- >> but what jumps out about what brownstein is saying, there was a poll on the contraceptive mandate, 53% support, 41% opposition. but what he said really stands out, when you look at college educated white women, nonwhite voters, this emerging coalition, the support is well over 60% and he said that's the future. >> and i think what we're seeing, even though this was a blow to the left, what we'll see going forward, this gives democrats really ammunition going in to the midterm and the general election that they can point to the republicans who are applauding this decision as a way that they're taking away women's rights to contraception. i mean, we've got fitzgerald in

ohio going after kasich and wendy since her epic filibuster, call be ing abbott out on this. so i think we'll see a lot of democrats reresurrecting the war on women. >> he's saying one party is standing as stride history and saying no. that's what republicans do. and one party is riding a demographic wave. what is the smartest place to be? is contraception something different from health care? i think that is an animated issue to liberals. so even if conservatives are into what the supreme court decided, the pre-negotiation that obama tried to carve out with conservatives and

republicans this congress that did not really work, i do think that look at the female justices on the court and look at what they said in the wheaton college decision. they can't believe all of a sudden getting birth control pills or iuds is something other than health care and i think democratic women can use that. >> one interesting fallout, i'm not quite sure if even the supreme court has been proven more wrong than saying our decision is narrow, it's focusing only on hobby lobby and within 48 hours, it started to ap apply to a whole hoe of others. alito says it can't apply to this or that but you can't spell out every specific -- >> the bush/gore thing, they said the same thing. >> the only way to test it is with more challenges. and you'll find -- you you can't say up front what the precedent

is or isn't. other stuff we want to get to, wall street closed out the week on a record high. i guess that happens a lot lightllight lately. but this was only hours after details of a june jobs report. unemployment fell to 6.1% fp there are questions about how sustained the economic recovery is. new york sometimes points out all the snow days may have contributed to june's rosy report. more seasonal educational workers were employed longer. so we didn't want to suggest the economy is heading in the wrong direction, but was the report as wonderful as we thought. 288,000 jobs created in june. this is the strongest first six months of the year since 1999.

the best six month period of any kind since 2006. it was near 10% unemployment in the first year of obama's presidency and of course the stock market has been a the story for a while now. so i guess the question, we look at president obama's approval rating and how it's tied so much to the economy. and his numbers have been stuck in the 40s to peaking at 50 ps. b but we may think about the presidency in a different way. >> i see this as a pivotal boost to democrats. according to a recent poll, 54% of americans said they thought obama was doing a poor job on the economy. so they can now say we've done this and some of the republican talking points about obama care is hurting the economy, et cetera, makes it harder to justify. but then again, if you look at the beginning of 2012, we saw similar -- first three months, we saw really similar --

>> we've had false alarms. >> so while this is a welcoming news, i wouldn't say that -- >> and we also had the disturbing sort of revision of the first quarter gdp, as well, where growth shrank. >> disturbing news and then all of a sudden we get the best jobs report in 15 years almost. >> so we really need a couple more months of similar job growth and we'll have to see how the second quarter goes to see whether this is -- whether either the sgchlt dp figure or the jobs figure are -- >> never take the last month's jobs report. just never take it. go for a three month, six month rolling average. and that is generally upwards. but i think that there is the economy has lived and at the time and the economy as what these numbers say. and the recovery is a recovery, but it's not a great recovery. it's not obama's fault. it's the fundamental change of america, the fact that if you're

a hard working high school graduate with a strong back, you do not have a reasonable expectation of a good middle class lch. that has changed permanently. whoever gets the presidency next will inherit that. and you have to figure out what we'll do. you have to get more people educated, you have to have different kinds of industry going in the sector. the jobs report, these numbers, i think are so disconnected, i think that way of looking at politics, here is an unemployment number, what will it mean for approval rating, what do approval ratings mean for midterm. >> it would be a major change to just sort of the political science. they have track sod closeded so closely for generations. if the economy is changing in the ways you're talking about, that does raise the question of whether that tore rates correlae have more news to get to. more big stuff we'll talk about it when we get back.

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more going on this morning. we'll turn to a column in this morning's "washington post". dana milbank engaging in what he calls crazy talk. for obama, loss of the is that the could be freeing. and crazy talk? maybe so. the prevailing view is that a republican is that the would only compound obama's woes by bottling up confirmations, doubling the number of investigations and chipping away at obamacare and other legislative achievements. white house officials wonder if it would be better than the current environment. republicans would own congress. so i get the point, which is it would add a level of clarity to the situation in that the house

could pass a tea party bill, the republican senate could pass it, it could go to obama's desk and the dividing line would be very clear. you wouldn't have the republican house simultaneously blaming the is that the and the senate being aligned with the white house. you wouldn't have that dynamic. it would be a much clearer and simple dynamic. so i understand what he's saying. >> from a pr perspective, it would be easy to go with that narrative, but on the other hand, if -- i do think it's crazy talk. i think there would be chipping away of obama's legislation, increased hearings and it would be a mess. >> i'm sorry, but in my previous life, i worked on the hill whenis working for newt gingrich when there was a republican congress versus a democratic president. going into the '96 reelect, yes, it was very good for bill clinton to have a republican.

ask bill clinton how great it was having an all republican congress in his last two years, which included by the way impeachment. one of the best possible legacies barack obama could have would be another supreme court appointme appointment. >> that's the big one. i guess what i get from milbank, if the reality is a republican house, if there is a republican senate, maybe the distinction is clear. >> in my past life i used to an pool hustler and this is what is known as a overly complicated triple bank shot. i understand the point like you do, but do you really think the big problem is that the american people aren't blaming the republicans in congress enough?

let's say in the abstract they were, there is still not in the senate but in the house the way everything is directed, they will still control the house and they will control the house by even more. so what is the point to say that, see, they are eat ones screwing it up as opposed to actually getting your people confirmed. the federal bureaucracy, if you get the right people unirunninge agencies, things get done better. >> we've been seeing this in the polls since 2009 where there is this lag. congressional approval rate aing is like 2%. approval for democrats in congress is much higher. the democratic party versus the republican party, much higher. tea party, very low. i think democrats are frustrate that had they haven't been able to trancslate that into eleak

to electoral energy. so you say this is what you're seeing but you're not getting it in the elections. >> the flip side, the public already thinks that republicans are running congress which actually sometimes lets harry reid off the hook when he bottles up some legislation on the senate side, as well. so sometimes democrats get kind of credit for the fact that the republicans are seen as the only reason why things aren't getting through congress. >> we have to go in a second, but were you really a pool hustler? >> that's what pool hustlers never admit to. >> i guess that clears it up. we do have one more thing to get to. candidates make many roms, but rob ford is making headlines for something he says he complaian' promise. staying sober. he won't guarantee sobriety, he

says he can't promise he won't fall off the wagon again because he has no control. ford returned to the city council after two months in rehab. ford blames substance abuse for what he said. so my question is whether this is honestly -- whether his honesty is refreshing or whether it will come back to haunt him. we don't know. what was so striking to me about watching rob ford, lawrence owe do that he wiehe wil o'donnell of the video, this seems like a man in recovery. >> it's a great for him person li but, but if you promise i might get drunk, that's not a good thing. >> he became such an international punch line and i do wonder if it's genuine

constriction. >> if i'm a toronto voter, my thought really is do i want to be the person to just like help our mayor work through all of his problems and he may have a fall back, he may -- you you know, he may not. do you want that. obviously if you're a journalist, please, we want more. but still. >> for a guy that has spent suppose lie detectorly 450 hours in rehab and has run on this campaign on second chances, make comments like these are not going to do him any good. >> maybe it's about reclaiming some dignity. >> i like his idea, instead of electorate, we'll call it mayor-anon. >> and we're also hoping that marion berry on his book tore does a one-on-one interview are rob ford. >> i want to thank our panel

this morning. we'll see you later in the hour. the republican wave of 2010 pave the way for democrats to win back the red states? state by state analysis begins next. age where you've learned a thing or two. this is the age of knowing what you're made of. so why let erectile dysfunction get in your way? talk to your doctor about viagra. 20 million men already have. ask your doctor if your heart is healthy enough for sex. do not take viagra if you take nitrates for chest pain... it may cause an unsafe drop in blood pressure. side effects include headache, flushing, upset stomach, and abnormal vision. to avoid long-term injury, seek immediate medical help for an erection lasting more than four hours. stop taking viagra and call your doctor right away if you experience a sudden decrease or loss in vision or hearing. this is the age of taking action. viagra. talk to you doctor.

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today his doctor has him on a bayer aspirin regimen to help reduce the risk of another one. if you've had a heart attack be sure to talk to your doctor before you begin an aspirin regimen. when you think of kansas, you probably think of a state that has been very red for a very long time. you'd be right to think that way. but it used to be a very different shade of red, a moderate pragmatic shade of red. bob dole brokered bipartisan deals and teamed up with george mcgovern to save the food stamp program. dole had this to state last year. >> what do you think of your party, of the republicans today? >> i think they out to put a sign on the committee doors that says closed for repairs until new year's day next year. and spend that time going over

ideas and positive agendas. >> and also landmark health insurance legislation with ted kennedy. but all of that was in the pb era, the era that began in 2010 when sam brownbeck was governor of kansas. he first one back in 1996 when he got his senate seat by defeating a moderate pro-choice republican. and sense then, the fight between he and the once moderate wing has only escalated. 2012, they controlled the state senate in a series of bidder primary fights. he's led a conservative revolution as governor. he signed into law an abortion

bill that defines life as beginning at conception. he's had tax cuts that attributed to a huge drop in state revenues. at the same time that he was slashing income taxes, brownback reigned in the welfare. and many endorse his opponent. the statehouse minority leader, paul davis. in the latest polling out of kansas, it shows brownback and davis neck and neck. so the national journingal asks can a democrat win in kansas. so, dave, welcome. appreciate you taking the time. maybe you can start by just -- i think a national audience looks at kansas and says another one of those red states, very

conservative. but this divide between the old bob dole are more or less moderate type and the new conservative types that's real and significant. >> it's been around for a long time as you suggested in your opening remarks. for 20, 25 years, the split between the moderates and conservatives has been very pronounced and brownback is the leader of that wing. and you're rooight, the nationa view is that we are a very red state. and for the most part, that's true statewide. the state hasn't laelgelected a democrat to the senate since the depression. so that gives you an idea of the lapd landscape at that level. but kathleen sebelius was laegtlaegt elected governor in kansas. and the way a democrat wins a

governor's race in kansas is to attract those moderate votes primarily in the kansas city suburbs. people who want the bills paid and are not quite as ideological for example as sam brownback would be. so that's what you're seeing in the polls that have been released recently. this idea that the moderates again particularly around kansas city are taking a close look at paul davis and that's put sam brownback in some trouble in his re-election campaign. >> so the question is how durable do you think that is. are these republicans who come midterm election they will be, well, i'm a republican, i won't vote for the democrat, or do you think there really is something there that could have enough moderate republicans voting for the democrat in this governor's race? >> we'll see of course. but you do get the sense talking to some republicans of long standing in kansas that they are quite nervous about brownback's chances. they're not really worried about the attacks on ideology or what i might write or you say, but

when moody's down grades the did you tell debt, that's an outside observer saying your economic program isn't working to the level you said it was or would. so i think there is concern from the main street banker republican faction, if you will, in kansas that sam brownback's experiment has not worked and when that happens, it does give paul davis a path. is sam brownback still the favorite? yes. but paul davis definitely has some argument to make to the democratic party nationally and here in kansas that he'll have a shot. >> one thing, sam brownback ran for president in 2008. maybe people have forgotten. and i've seen his name as a potential for 2016.

is there a thought on brownback's part that if he can get reelected, he might turn around and run for president? >> yes, at least that's what you hear from people relatively close to him that he hasn't lost that bug. but the converse is also true. if he runs or if he is defeated in november, steve, his national ambitions such as they are would probably be out of the picture for the indefinite future. the other thing to think about sam brownback, he is being eclipsed in some ways by other conservatives at the presidential level. scott walker is a good example. another governor who gets national publicity. brownback doesn't seem to be rises to that level in the eye of national republicans. that's why i think the outcome of this task cut debate in kansas and his re-election effort in november is so critical to his future in the party. if he wins, he would be one of

the people you'd talk about about 2016 or perhaps 2020 relatively young guy. 2024. he still has presidential ambitions. >> i think i know how his opponent can raise some money. really appreciate you getting up. coming up, you may already be a winner. how you could be the lucky recipient of a tea party republican's money. ugh. heartburn. did someone say burn?

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casting ballots. >> we have people in the field working all next would he be to find the additional irregularities that we believe are out there. we'll follow up on the different tips that we've heard from throughout the state. and after that we'll have our evidence together and move iel a new election declared, what would be the third race this year between him and cochran. mississippi has no faormal part registration. mcdaniel for instance actually voted in the democratic primary back in 2003. but the law also says that if you vote in a party's primary, you cannot in the same election cycle vote in the other party's runoff. so that is with a mcdaniel says he'll prove here, that enough people voted in the democratic primary and the runoff to potentially swing the result of the race. in a letter to supporters, mcdaniel said thanks to illegal

voting from liberal democrats, my opponent stole last week's runoff election, but i'm not going down without a fight. and it got ugly when a conference call set up by cochran's all lies, an unidentified caller said all of this. >> we talked about the very specif specific -- >> i'd like to know if black people were har veing cotton, why do you think it's okay to harvest their votes? they're not animals. >> sir you can i don't know, you know, where you're calling from, but i'm happy to address any question no matter the lunacy of it -- >> why did you use black people? why did you use black people to try to get cochran elected when they're not even republicans and you're treating them as if they're just idiots that they will vote for cochran just because they're black. that's ridiculous. >> supporter of the mcdaniel

campaign got off the call shortly after that. on thursday, mcdaniel offered a $1,000 reward to anyone who can provide evidence leading to the arrest and conviction of those who engaged in voter fraud. at the national level, we've been assuming cochran has won and this race is all over, but is it really over? does mcdaniel have a chance of getting the runoff thrown out? joining me now is dave weigle. so, dave, take us through this one. nationally think we all sort of stopped paying attention to this, but here we are and it's still going on. what does chris mcdaniel need to do here to prove if he's going to get a third shot at cochran? >> the cam pkacampaign thinks td it prove that the 6800 or so vote margin of the election was shaky enough that fraud might have overcome it. and they claim as of the start of the weekend that they found

4900 votes probably cast by democrats who voted in round one of the election were souped to be off the table and turned out for the runoff. they need to -- if they don't hit that number, they will try on argue that there are more questions, more stories. they have latched on to a report that was debunked pretty quickly that a volunteer used walking around money to buy vote. it was an in-coherent story reported by an independent conservative reporter. they're just trying to say there are enough questions to overturn it. >> so obviously the republican establishment, chris mcdaniel has not been on the same page as the republican establishment all along, so it probably doesn't mean much to him that they want this to end.

but what about the tea party crowd. are they united behind him or is that movement split? >> in mississippi, the tea partiers i've talked to do believe it was unfair for the election to turn on black voters being driven out by the cochran campaign. what you heard on that call which i think mcdaniel actually apologized because it never sounds good when your assume e mentions black people picking cot cotton, but there was a rage that black voters were told to turn out for cochran because he would deliver for them. that's what they view as the real racism. they view the politics much -- one tea partier said that's the real problem is a party that considers votes something that can be bought with government

largess. and they view that as illegitimate even before the vote counting starts. mcdaniel is the republican nominee no matter what the state says, but they think it was illegitimate the way cochran won. >> if nothing else, maybe it settles a debate that has been going on for five years. what is the tea party. is it a movement that exists outside of the two political parties. i've always said the tea party really is just another term for the republican party base. and listening to somebody like jen a jenny beth martin saying the thing that matters among republicans, he won, it says to me that is our confirmation. the tea party movement really is a republican party phenomenon. >> definitely contradicts a lot of the branding of tea party patriots specifically. they would always say this is a movement of independents and democrats bigger than the republican party. i think the arguments over this

race have really soured some of that messaging. and it's frustrating for other republicans because they really thought on june 25th the republican party had reached out to new voters. even hillary clinton compliments ted cochran's outreach. and now it's being toasted an by the tea party who are making it a racial partisan fight that they thought they had avoided. they thought they avoided chris mcdaniel being a face of the party in 2014. and it's increasing bitterness for the tea party for the reasons you just stated. guys who claim to be bigger than politics are representing forces that they say once and for all are the reasons they lose elections to democrats. >> final question here. again, sort of part and parcel of the national media stopped paying attention to this thing, we said mississippi is not going

to be a story in the fall anymore. republican state especially when it comes to federal elections with cochran the kconservative g any traction not going to happen, in light of what you've seen in the weeks since, the legal challenge, maybe protracted, is there any doubt to say, yeah, the republicans have the seat in the fall or is there fracturing going on that could open up ground for childress? >> you do hear anecdotes about voters so angry. it's hard enough to see that making a difference. cochran tends to get -- before this election, tended to get 10 t10% to 20% of the black vote. i think the larger effect will

be poisoning of the well and the ruining of a story that republicans felt was great for them. this is something that they didn't think could happen and something that they now every time they think -- we think mississippi instead of it being this kind of stu stevens comeback, stevens specifically was talking about dock rcochran rocky figure. i don't think they can play that role anymore. that's a minor problem for republicans. i think they will be happy to have mcdaniel out of there because the race won't be competitive. it's just the story is ugly. >> and i wonder, too, whether we're talking about in mississippi or nationally, too, how much this an any mat an any tea party going forward. anyway, my thanks to you. appreciate the time this morning.

still ahead, who is your favorite american president? how recently did that president serve? we'll talk about why the long passage of time doesn't seem to make the heart grow fonder. 

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make sure you always know what's coming - and are ready for it. make it matter. the panel is back here with me. i have a special assignment for them, july 4th, a time to celebrate who and what makes america great. and great is how we usually end up describing our presidents. either great successes or great failures. theirtered with examples of both. but what about the great in between. but they weren't so awful their names echo in infamy. call them the mediocre presidents. just kind of blah.

but we figured we would pause and give them their due. so let's celebrate america's forgotten presidents. who is your favorite and why? rob, here is your chance to shine a light somewhere it never gets shined. >> i went back to the golden age between andrew jackson and abraham lincoln. we had eight presidents in that time, four of which served less than a full term mainly because two died in office and their successors, the electorate basically didn't -- >> so who is yours? >> william henry harris so thon be mine. >> died in 30 days. >> he died in 30 days as simpsons once famously said. and he died because he gave esternly pardon the expression long inaugural address in

freezing weather, refused to put on his own jacket and caught pneumonia and basically died. a president who talked himself to death. >> mike. >> well, chester a. arthur who i heard was actually pronounced his middle name in a disturbing way. and this mustache does not do the justice. this was a bushy furry wolverine that krofcrawled under his nose. we expected nothing of arthur. his father was a preacher. and when he was a lawyer, he defended the first woman who pretty much desegregated new york city street cars. but he ascended to the presidency, he was there to balance the ticket. garfield gets shot. assassin mentions arthur.

so he laid low while garfield lay dying. and what he did, he played within himself. it wasn't an opportunity to do great things. but he was pretty much on the right side of the issue of tariffs and he reformed civil service and he only served four years and he knew he was dying and he left office and died within two years. but people say he was so much better than we thought he said be. civil service reforms were good. and mark twain said something good and he were earnest about him. >> and thedo you have a peez figure? >> i don't. next time. i picked jimmy carter.

his post-rd city realpresidency outshown what he was able to do in office in terms of being a champion in human rights. he got the thounobel peace priz. so think because he's done such great work afterwards, his presidency was moediocre, too p >> i like zachky day are lore y zachary taylor you because he's the only president to of being exhumed. a mystery about how he died. thank you to coming in this holiday weekend. coming up, bob costas joins me at this table. not a joke. straight ahead.

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hurricane arthur may have put a dent this some holiday plan, but many celebrations carried on in spectacular fashion. skies cleared in new york city for macy's annual fourth of july fireworks show on the east river where 40,000 fireworks including p high ro pyrotechnics. thousands went to national mall. and earlier in the day, the president and the first lady greeted service members and their families. casual attire for the commander in chief. and amazingly, o lly bob costa s live next. my insurance company told me not to talk to people like you. you always do what they tell you? no... try it, and see what your good driving can save you.

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that would be my daughter -- hi dad. she's a dietitian. and back when i wasn't eating right, she got me drinking boost. it's got a great taste, and it helps give me the nutrition i was missing. helping me stay more like me. [ female announcer ] boost complete nutritional drink has 26 essential vitamins and minerals, including calcium and vitamin d to support strong bones and 10 grams of protein to help maintain muscle. all with a delicious taste. grandpa! [ female announcer ] stay strong, stay active with boost. i'm going to fall back on my catholic roots and confess my sins to you. or at least one of my sins.

when i was told we would have to do a show this weekend, i wasn't completely totally 100% thrilled about it. and then i changed my mind and i got excited because i found out i would get on interview our next guest. if at some point you've watched nbc for the olympics or for a super bowl or an n bchlnba game world series, you know him. or even if you have seen a movie, you still know him. when bob costas told us he could come this today, we had two reactions. s first, is he serious? the second, this is the perfect weekend to talk with bob costas. the political world like other americans is taking a breather.

this is about celebrating our country's birthday and trips to the beach and hot dog contests. 15 baseball games tomorrow. 15 more today. usa team was eliminated, but the world cup rolls on. there is even a big nascar race down in florida tonight although i'm not sure we should call that a sport. while they're enjoying their barbecue, fans everywhere are talking about where lebron will end up next season or which nfl team had the best offseason. but this is america. and in america, politics tends to get mixed up in everything. and that is particularly true when it comes to sports right now. the you issue of whether college athletes deserve how of a cut of the money schools make off of them seems to be coming to a head. the future of football is called in to question.

merely two years ago after the suicide of gentleman von bell chur, he addressed america's gun culture. >> handguns exacerbate our flaws, tempt to us escalate arts and bait us this to embracing confrontation rather than avoiding it. in the coming bays, belcher's actions will be annualized. who knows. but if belcher didn't possess a gun, he and kasandra perkins would both be alive today. >> days after came the rampage in sandy hook. last fall, he called for daniel snyder to change his name's name. >> ask yourself what the equivalent would be if directed toward african-american, asian,

or hispanics. when considered that way, red skips complaint possibly honor a heritage or noble character trait nor can it possible be considered a neutral term. it's an insult, a slur, no matter how benign the present day intend. >> and so without any further adieu, let's get to our guest. here he is live. his "up" debut in person. welcome. >> this can only lead to an unhappy weekend for me. because all of those who see the common sense in either of those positions will nod that are heads and when they pass me on the street, say way to go. and those who which to extrapolate a series of beliefs or characterization about me that is wholly untrue will do with it what they will. so my weekend is already off to a bad start. >> i'm sorry about that. but let me ask you about that. from the standpoint of you're hosting sunday night football.

and you wade into several controversial topics. and wonder if the reaction you're describing right there tells us something about our political culture in this country. i think we're sort of very tribal culture where if you take one side on one thing, you're marked as a member of this tribe and a traitor to this tribe. >> yes. and those who objected to either/or both of those didn't seem to have much objection when during the 2012 london olympics, i mentioned that it was the 40th anniversary of the munich massacre and that the ioc in my view was negligent and in-says difference in not acknowledging that in some official way.in no that in some official way. not only was it connected directly to the olympics, but they probably agreed with the sentiment expressed. in you 20in 2008 when i pointed how peking has been transformed,

this is still though not communist with no free press, i didn't hear that i was mixing politics with sports because they liked what i said. but also keep this in mind. i wouldn't have made that comment had the olympics not been held in beijing. it was impossible not to talk about vladimir you putin and the irks circumstances under which the olympics were taking place in sochi. we brought this experts from different perspectives. and i questioned them and at other times i made comments that were still appropriate. it would not have been talking about russian circumstances if the olympics were being held in paris. i did not talk about terrorism even when there were more horrific at least in total

numbers of fatalities, more horrific circumstances elsewhere. didn't talk about terrorism when wasn't directly connected. but the 40th anniversary of what happened in munich this 1972 directly connected to sports. how in the world the name of the washington redskins football team is not a sports issue is beyond me. ultimately it will be decided by the owner of the team and/or the commissioner of the league. about someone liif someone likee is not in a position to creditly comment, whether you agree or not, if that is abuse of a forum, i don't see the lodge he can in that. and i don't see the logic the football game was interrupted. it is halftime. go get a drink or go to the bathroom if you don't want to listen to what i or anyone else has to say. you won't miss a single play. >> you're making halftime the most boring part of the game more interesting. but wonder if the reaction

you're describing -- you're in an interesting place. i imagine the audience for an average nfl game as probably just as many democrats as republicans. it really is a broad range. >> one of the few things left. which is why some of the things that i have said have been said by others. might even have been said or written better bay othey others. but they don't have as large as audience. now, i think one of the benefits of that when you use that forum judiciously, wisely, carefully, is that while i can't get into it as effectively as let's say bri apartment gum bell and his team at real sports at hwo bo, outside the lines at espn or an article in the sports illustrated or "new york times".

but simply bying a knowled ackn these things, i think i serve a purpose that for whatever reason, most of my colleagues, as good as they are, don't seem willing to do. during the entire coverage of the ncaa basketball tournament, you'll hear every imaginable statistic. you'll never hear graduation rates or the relationship between academics an athletics. if i was doing that, i'd work it in somewhere. would i work it in with the game on the line with ten seconds to go? of course not. i enjoy the drama of sports as much as might be. but i'd acknowledge it. i think someone who is in a position where the network is partners with the event, if that person is willing to acknowledge it, whether it was steroids in baseball, where i was ahead of the pack respect whether it was the concussion issue which i talk about it four years ago on air, to do that in front of that

audience in that context, i think serves a purpose. >> so when we had you on the phone a couple months ago, it was the morning after the whole donald sterling thing. and it looks like that is sort of getting resolved. there will be a new own, steve ballmer will own the clippers and wife immunized. so now that that is in the rear view mirror, did we learn anything from that? was sports changed in any way? was that about anything? >> to me that was a low hanging fruit thing. who -- who this side of outliers who can't get a hearing anywhere on the spectrum, who doesn't think that what donald sterling said and what his record reveals about him is unacceptable? so that was an easy one. when people say, well, this is an opportunity to open up a dialogue on race? here is where i think some people who work in this building

ought to accept up and say that's a bunch of politically correct bs. what people really want is a chance to rae pete tepeat the s narrative. the less comfortable truths, the more complicated state of race relation he is s relations in 2014, you don't want to wade into. so i don't know who decided david duke would have a problem relations in 2014, you don't want to wade into. so i don't know who decided david duke would have a problem in denouncing donald sterling. what is the controversy? he shouldn't own a team a. >> what you're talking about, can that take place in our media culture? >> if we take courage. you're setting me up for a team of pundit friday that i'm not setting myself up for, but i'm

answering your question. people said nixon was the guy who came go to china. nix on th nixon was a staufshstaunch anti mist. only one on the conservative spectrum who can say no one's 2nd amendment rights would be an bridged if we had common sense gun control. you need somebody on the right to make that point. on the left, to say historically the narrative of white racism and the oppression of black americans is the overriding truth. it's the single greatest stain on our national history. it is still part of narrative.

but that narrative is much more complex now. and some of the issues that are afflicting black america are not the result of white racism. that's a politically uncorrect thing to say that somebody in this studio needs to say. >> what about just one of the things we talk ted was lebron james. he took a very active role. and you're saying on the literal controversy, it was an easy controversy. >> it was a lay-up if you pardon the lousy pun. >> so did you see anything in lebron there or more in general athletes now, the level of engagement civically and politically by athletes, where does that stand compared to a generation or two ago? >> it's a different world. in an important way. not just jackie robinson, but hank aaron and bill russell and jim brown and arthur ashe and

muhammad ali and billie jean king. when i was growing up, athletes had an important voice. some courageously spoke out. we're finding less and less of that as athletes become richer and richer and also in fairness when some of the injustices are less overt than they were in the '50s and '60s. >> bob costas will stick around. when we come back, we'll have a reunion. frank deford used to work with bob. now he's with npr and hbo real sports. he'll be out here next and we will convene the ultimate sports round table. this "credit report. can i get my actual credit report... like, the one the bank sees? [ male voice ] sheesh, i feel like i'm being interrogated over here. [ male voice ] she's onto us. dump her. [ pay phone rings ] hello? oh, man. that never gets old.

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about the state of sports in america. bob costas is joined by frank deford, who once upon a team used to team up with bob on nfl studio show. you see a shot there from 1987. mike pesca is back with us, as well. we'll start with soccer is all over the news. although with the u.s. fall out of the u.s. cup, it's fading from the headlines. it's supposit does raise the qu what is our national pastime these days? how a lot of us grew up about baseball, but is it nfl or maybe video game verk version?

>> it's clearly football. if baseball wants to be the pastime, they can say because of the nature of it. day in and day out nature and the pace, which is moving toward the lethargic. but you could say that it's a pastime whereas football is a spectacle. but by every measure of popularity, football runs away. >> so what is it, just the pace? >> it may very well be that it's in tune with american tastes right now. video games for example. all the back and forth games are much easier to follow, too, whether it's soccer, hockey, basketball being whatever. baseball requires hand/eye coordination as opposed to typical athleticism. so i think just the violence in america, too, has to be taken into account, steve. you can't ignore that fact.

and football is tremendously brutal. >> and i think the violence of football does give it an example that should only be played once a week. and maybe not even that much. whereas baseball is pastoral and rolls over you. but i think basketball and hockey are played too often. they're not special. football become as conversation for an entire week. i go further than saying it's the most popular sport. think it's the most cultural force as everything else is breaking apart in america and we have no shared culture, football is one thing that everyone can have a conversation about. >> look at the list of the top rated programs on television in a given year. no sooner do i say it, there it is. is it possible the academy awards would crack the list? but if you extend it out to 20, 18 would be football games.

almost all nfl games. >> and one other thing, betting. >> that's what i was going to say. >> very important. ever since the point spread was invented around 1940. the ascension has followed in that line. i'm sort of surprised that they limit sports betting in the state of nevada. i don't know how that's possible under the constitution. >> chris christie agrees with you. >> new jersey says, hey, that's not fair. and i agree. i can't understand it at all. once that happens, i assume that it will, i think that football will explode even more. >> so that's the strength of football. what about the threat to the game posed by concussions? because how many parents out there now are having their kids play soccer or something else. >> part paicipation in youth football is down roughly 10% as the issue has come to the fore.

and i think you could make a case, it may be a bit overly dramatic, but could you make the case that this is american popular culture. there are cracks in the found days. you can play hockey without fights if you don't like fights. witness college hockey, most of the playoffs. you can play baseball without steroids. and the risk of injury in baseball is sdipts incidental. you could play college sports and have student athletes. they're theoretically reformable. whereas i don't know that you can play football at the highest levels and take the essential violence out of it. you can mitigate the risk? yes. can you improve the protocols? yes. but more and more reasonable people including people who are season ticket holders and love the game will say i enjoy much with a, but i won't let my kid play it. >> i don't know how that will affect the popularity beforemuc

with a, but i won't let my kid play it. >> i don't know how that will affect the popularity before all these kids who play soccer, but kids have played soccer for 30 years and it hasn't gotten very popul popular. nothing is more popular than jogging on the weekends. i think that for years and years, all the nfl tried to do is suppress the information and to pretty much lie about it, let's say. now at least they're trying to take on the issue. i think you'll never have football without concussions, but -- >> i do wonder, though, about the example of boxing. somebody watch know hammed inmo mad ally and that tragedy. >> you would say, yes, except for the rise of mm. a and ultimate fighting.

>> and also boxing is an individual sport. football is a team sport. you represent a city, you represent a college. and so the allegiance for football extends beyond the sport. you care about boxing. you love your team. so that's why i think no matter how brutal football gets, the game will still be there for people to watch. >> i'll try to make these guys commissioner for a day of baseball. if you could make one act to bring baseball back to where it would be. what would it be. and college sports, as well. instead of mailing everyone my vacation photos,

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what is the future of amateur athletics, college athletics, with these increasingly large pies that schools can get for football and basketball and athletes not seeing a cut of it. >> first of all, student-athlete is an absolute indecent term. they're not students at the all in many cases. and it is so unfair that they are not paid. i'm surprised the colleges have not said we'll give them a stipend. because i think the quarterback for alabama or whatever is worth $1 million a year. i don't think they should get a little pocket change. think they should get paid the way other athletes do. >> but public versus private institutions, you get a revenue

gap, baseball has knmitigated i but yankees versus kansas city royals. why should the quarterback for alabama receive a stipend or salary in excess of a field hockey player. >> because a field hockey player doesn't bring any money in. >> i get that, but they're supposedly student athletes. >> that's the fiction. i think there are problems, but like any major overall, don't let the problems get in the way of the fundamental truth. i agree maybe there is amateurism, but now there is a big trial going on why that myth has been exploded. >> injustice is illustrated by the players walking through the store and sees his number.

what if the player can sign their own contracts. >> i agree they should have a cut of any commercial sales. but for me, the reason why we're saying that players are getting nothing is because we've removed all pretext that they truly are student-athletes. if you recruited only people who could meet the minimum standards of your institution, ohio state's minimum standards would not be the same as stanford, but could not meet the minimum standards if they didn't have a football or basketball team, but still good enough to play, they're getting six figures worth of education that their family doesn't have to pay for. plus they're getting coaching and room and board. that is poo-pooed as having no value because this is a charade. in they're true student athletes, what they were

receiving would be of great value and they would have to set up real farm systemslike hockey and baseball have and then a kid would decide -- no one says the poor college hockey player or poor college baseball play are because they have an option. >> but they haven't got an option right now. i go the other way. let them play college sports for four years with no academic standards whatsoever. you want to get a degree, fine. if you just want to play football or basketball, that's okay with me. because there are no options. bob says there are no minor leagues. and who will play for a plomino league with 500 people watching you when you have an opportunity to play with 80,000 people wooching. >> the care carry tolina tar he actually doing that experiment. but the reason northwestern

wanted to unionize you can the quarterback wanted to be premed. they said absolutely not. you can't really be an athlete at the highest levels with so much money. i say pay with money. >> this is the story. we talked about it for six months or so and this will be -- the calls will only grow. >> collateral issues are greater than is being acknowledged here. what funds the tennis team, what funds the grim maymnastics team. >> we forget there are 21 other sports. >> if in truth the best players who don't want or aren't qualified to be students don't want to be or aren't qualified to be wound up in farm systems, the only people who could tell the difference if north carolina plays clemson and the game is close, the only people that could tell the difference are

professional scouts. the alumni and people watching, it's still sbher tak entertaini. so i don't see the business would be negatively impacted. >> we did not get to go to the commissioner for the day, but sit tight, because up next, a special one time only americana edition of up against the clock. tell the good from the bad?" so we gave people the power of the review. and now angie's list is revolutionizing local service again. you can easily buy and schedule services from top-rated providers. conveniently stay up to date on progress. and effortlessly turn your photos into finished projects with our snapfix app. visit angieslist.com today. ♪ really... so our business can be on at&t's network for $175 dollars a month? yup. all five of you for $175. our clients need a lot of attention.

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against the clock. incredible group of tv sports all-stars heading over to contestants row. we'll test their knowledge of american sports, history, geography, basically if it happened in america in the last 238 years, it could end up in a question. up against the clock, a special edition, starts next. ...and a choice. take 4 advil in a day which is 2 aleve... ...for all day relief. "start your engines" that's keeping you from the healthcare you deserve. at humana, we believe if healthcare changes, if it becomes simpler... if frustration and paperwork decrease... if grandparents get to live at home instead of in a home... the gap begins to close. so let's simplify things. let's close the gap between people and care. ♪

life from studio 3 a in rockefeller center usa, it's time for a special tv sports all-star edition of up against the clock. if you drink a beer this holiday weekend, you may be reminded of his standout performance in a 1981 miller lite commercial. say hello to frank deford. and he's a former jeopardy contestant who actually had the lead until he was tripped up by a question about pop singers. please welcome mike pesca.

he climbed a stuffed moose in vancouver and take he's looking to reach the heights of game show excellence. it's bob costas. and now your host of up against the clock, steve kornacki. >> thank you, jim cutler. in for vacationing bill wolf, thank you contestants, thank you everyone tuning in at home for a special fourth of july americana edition of up against the clock. you know this is a fast paced current events quiz of the biggest news of the week, but today for the special holiday edition, we will expand to cover all 238 glorious years of american history. we have political questions in here, we very sports questions, we have random questions. if it's happened in america, it could be in these questions. the rules as always, they are the same. we have three rounds. 100 points in the first round,

2200 in t 2 200, in the second, 300 in the third. you will be penalized for incorrect answers. there are two bonus questions scattered in. and please no outbursts. are you ready? you look ready to me. hands on buzzers, please. we will begin the 100 point round with this. established in present day virginia in 1607, the nam e of the first permanent -- mike. jamestown. >> jamestown. residing in america's oldest national park, yellowstone, this geyser -- >> old faithful. >> 100 points. name the one president who was never elected either president or haven't. >> bob. >> gerald ford. >> correct. 100 points.

to visit st. john's church -- >> richmond. >> correct. frank with the early rink in and it pays off. the silhouetted player in the this. ba player -- >> jerry west. >> that's right. country interstate highway system is named for this president. >> eisenhower. >> eisenhower created the highway system. this nba franchise has won the most titles -- >> celtics. >> celtics correct. stop the clock. some exciting news, in addition to winning 100 points, that was the video bonus trigger question. because you answered it right, you will now have a chance to add an extra 100 points to your score to expand your lead. we've asked a celebrity to read a famous political quote. all you have to do is correctly identify who said it. you'll get that extra 100 points. no penalty for guessing. so take a look at this monitor.

>> good morning. i'm former world series champion of your boston red sox back in 2004. now co-host of intentional talk. today, today i have for you this week's up against the clock quote note. from the 1986 film hoosiers where this actor delivered the line now boys don't get caught watching the paint dry. good luck. >> what actor said that? >> gene hackman. >> incorrect. it was dennis hopper who said that. >> the assistant coach. >> no penalty, though. it was only a bonus. don't worry. the clock back up. 34 seconds. 100 point question. in the class he can cheers, sam malone is a former red sox pitcher known by what pick name? >> may day malone. >> and this iconic companyi he m malone is a former red sox

pitcher known by what pick name? >> may day malone. >> and this iconic companyc he sam malone is a former red sox pitcher known by what pick name? >> may day malone. >> and this iconic companyhe cam malone is a former red sox pitcher known by what pick name? >> may day malone. >> and this iconic companye can malone is a former red sox pitcher known by what pick name? >> may day malone. >> and this iconic company can malone is a former red sox pitcher known by what pick name? >> may day malone. >> and this iconic companycan c malone is a former red sox pitcher known by what pick name? >> may day malone. >> and this iconic companyan ch malone is a formn cheers, chees ma has six -- >> nathan's? >> incorrect. >> oscar mayer. >> correct. this vegas odds maker -- >> jimmy the greek. >> this 2004 movie featured nicolas cage feel stealing the declaration of -- >> national treasure. >> correct. ends the round. mike in the lead with 500. bob at 400. frank in the running with 100. very competitive round there. and it's only going to get more competitive because now we move to the 200 point rournd. the first casualty of the american wretch solutirevolutio >> chris. >> correct. the first woman ever to win a presidential primary in either major party --

>> hillary clinton. >> hillary clinton. correct. more u.s. presidents have been born in this state -- >> virginia. >> virginia. correct. 200 points. no governor has ever sought the presidency more times than this minnesota -- >> harold staser. >> at the wire he gets it. correct. the american tradition of throwing out the ceremonial first pitch before a baseball game -- >> taft. >> taft was the first president to do it. stop the clock. mike exciting news, 200 points because you got taft, but also this is the use it or lose it bonus question. it means you have a chance to double what you just won. but this one is not risk free. here is the deal. i have the follow-up question to the one just answered. it is related in some way and worth an extra 200 points if you can answer it correctly. but if you're wrong, you will

lose the 200 points. or you can as. your choice. will you use it or lose it? >> i'm using it. >> he's using it. all right. for 200 have a points, william henneyry harrison's presidency is the shortest in history, but who had the second shortest? >> garfield. >> correct. six months. 200 have a points. 50 seconds back on the clock. with seven each, ohio state, usc and this school are tied for the most heisman trophy winners. >> notre dame. >> correct. printed on the seal of the united states, the phrase e pluribus unum means -- >> out of many one. >> correct. when this president ordered all purchasers of federal land pay in gold or silver coins, it set off the panic of 1837. >> martin van buren.

>> correc incorrect. >> andrew jackson. >> correct what two former presidents died on the same date? >> adams and jefferson. >> correct. although the u.s. celebrates on july 4th, the continental -- >> july 3rd. >> incorrect. >> july 2nd. >> correct. at the wire for bob. we have a barn burner. 1600 bob, 1300 mike, frank, you can still make it up. we're about to embark on the round of champions. hardest questions. most valuable questions. this is where we sdecide the champen i don't. we dim the lights for dramatic at the time. andrew jacobs, democratic congressman from indiana in the 1980s and 1990s, was best known for his attempts to replace the star spangled banner with this. >> america the beautiful.

>> correct. the president in a television drama the west wing shares the name of in second person to sign the -- >> bartlett. >> correct. there are four states that share the same first letter as their capital cities. name two of them. i'll call time. dover, honolulu, oklahoma. >> who is the last losing vice presidential candidate to win the presidency? >> nixon. >> incorrect. he'll call time. fdr. besides george w. bush in 2000, three other presidents have been elected despite losing the popular vote. name one. >> grover cleveland. >> incorrect. i'll call time.

harrison, hayes or quincy adams. it's rarely used by anyone, but the official name of this state clocks in at 41 characters long making it the longest of any r plantation is correct. 300 points. this famously terse president is the only -- mike? >> calvin coolidge. >> born on the fourth of july. winning three tony awards including one for best musical this 1969 broadway show which was later -- mike? >> 1976. mike, that gives you a bigger lead are for the championship. you have won with 2,200 points. this special americana edition of "up against the clock." bill wolf is here to tell you what you've won. >> as our channmpion your name will be engraved using the finest sharpie ink on the "up against the clock" gold cup and a dvd copy of the film "cocoon 2: the return." and you'll get to play in our

jackpot round for today's grand prize, a $50 gift certificate to midtown manhattan. the only street meat vendor in the area operated by a am 30er chef of the russian tea room. i had it for lunch today. delicious. enskr enjoy the meal and congratulations. back to you, steve. >> all right, bill. quite a prized collection there. mike showing off that cup of the. here to win that street vendor gift certificate, i have your jackpot bonus question and it is this. there is one president, mike, who has delivered a state of the union address with four future presidents in attendance. name the president who gave the speech and the four future presidents who were there for it. i'm going to need an answer. >> yeah, i'm sure you are. gee, that's tough. reagan. >> incorrect. >> we'll stop there. embarrass myself further. >> the president was truman. the year was 1951 and the future

presidents were dwight eisenhower, john f. kennedy, richard nixon and lyndon johnson. congratulations on winning the game. thank you to frank, thank you to bob. you'll get the home edition, hours of fun for kids and people of all ages. appreciate you being good sports. appreciate you playing, and we'll be back to wrap up the show right after this. yeah, i would never book a hotel if i didn't know the name first. now what if i told you you can save up to 60%, but you couldn't know the name until after you book? did i say never? i didn't mean it. ♪

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it's that time of the show we find out what our guests think we should know. the champion of the flashy mug. >> july 4, 1939, that was when lou gehrig gave his luckiest man speech. do you know what he did after that? he only lived less than two years. he signed on for civil service job that paid $5,700 and worked in the parole system of new york. it was a legit job. the he said if i'm going to take this, i'm going to study and really do it. he turned down lucrative speaking gigs and the only reason he stopped there was an

elevator strike and his als did not allow him to climb the stairs. that is character. >> who knew? >> i came unprepared. but we go for the july 4 scheme, the man who subsequently owned lou gehrig's team and public persona could not the have been more different than the irish horse, george steinbrenner was born on the fourth of july. >> frank? >> i was fascinated to learn there is a copy of the declaration of independence down at the new york public library and it's jefferson's own copy in which he put in some of the things that were deleted from the final draft. and one of them was that the slave trade should be abolished. and ovjefferson, of course, was slave owner. but how interesting if that had happened, words are powerful and would have changed. >> incredible pieceses of information there. mike, you did play up against the clock earlier in the season. so when we get to the end of the year we have to seed our field for the tournament of champions, we're not sure how the selection committee is going to look on your win today after a loss. it's a debatable item.

we're going to find out. some suspense for later in the year when the selection committee meets. >> bracketology. >> he was our bracketologist for last year's tournament. that was a really great panel. i appreciate the time and thank you for joining us today. for more of sunday morning at 8:00 a.m., the other major supreme court ruling this past week, overshadowed by the hobby lobby decision that could affect employment benefits for millions. before then stick around for melissa harris-perry. immigration is the fight of the summer. it is just getting started. melissa harris-perry is up next with krystal ball sitting in for her. ...and a choice take 6 tylenol in a day which is 2 aleve for... ...all day relief. hmm. [bell ring] "roll sound!" "action!"

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you know that dream... on my count. ...the one where you step up and save the day? make it happen. (crowd) oh no... with verizon xlte. hey guys, i got it right here! we've doubled our 4g lte bandwidth in cities coast to coast. so take on more. with xlte. on the largest, most reliable 4g lte network. this morning my question is the future of the democratic party a state assemblywoman in nevada? plus, the 20th annual essence festival under way right now in new orleans. and, the presidential potential of the one that no one is talking about yet. but first, our huddled masses.