we wish him and the city luck as he returns home. thanks for watching. i'm al sharpton. have a great weekend. "hardball" starts right now. good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. let me start this friday with a political leadership of this country that's so screwed up it cannot take action even with the urgent situation of 52,000 children now warehoused on the texas border. the u.s. house of representatives says every high school of civics is taught. but the speaker of the house who thinks only of being a republican refuses to act. he points his finger at the president for causing the problem of the children as if pointing the finger somehow deals with the situation itself.

the president, i have to admit, is also refusing to do his part which is to admit one cause of the current debacle at the u.s. border is the law that president george bush signed intended to kill sex trafficking, a law being exploited now in countries like honduras to ship children overland to the u.s. nancy pelosi, with all her progressive and compassionate views for the children said there needs to be some accommodation between the two parties on the issue. here's pelosi yesterday on changing the 2008 law. >> really what's important is to get this supplemental. what price we have to pay to do that, we'll see in the course of the debate. but i would have hoped that they would not have made the change. it's not a deal breaker. there is an emergency, a burning building. we have to put out the fire. i'm not going to have a conversation about the color of the buckets that the water is

in. >> why can't people whose jobs it is to be politicians figure out how to do the job and work this out? why does it have to be one more piece of evidence to remember the question. casey sten gel asked when managing the hapless new york mets. can't anybody play this game? why can't politicians find a way to get through the disthe agreement, pass the hot potato but get it done. get the children taken care of. bill richardson was governor of new mexico. howard fineman is an msnbc political analyst from the huffington post media group. i need veterans and i've got two here. the president didn't include in the proposal for 3.7 billion dollars to deal with the situation on the border, he didn't propose formally a revision of the law which probably encouraged the kids to be shipped up here. at the same time pelosi who is a liberal and wants to help the kids says if we have to make a deal to get the emergency aid,

i'm willing to change the law. how do we solve the problem? boehner is sitting on his butt. >> i think the speaker has to finally say to his tea party constituency, look, we have a humanitarian crisis. 50,000 kids. the borders are porous. a deal needs to be made in exchange for the president getting 3.7 billion which will be more judges. it will will be detention centers. what's really needed is cracking down on smugglers and traffickers. the kids are victims. but there are a lot of bad people involved in this. in exchange, you clarify the law. you basically plug the loophole i believe has become a problem. >> it's doable. >> it's doable. the problem is this dysfunctional congress may not act before the august recess. if it happens this crisis will get to $100,000 kids by the end of the fiscal year. i saw it.

>> howard, listen to this. the same question. what happens when we get more pictures of kids sleeping on the floors of bathrooms? they are pretty well dressed, these kids. their parents put their best on them. they have sneakers like i grew up with, polo shirts. they look okay now. two or three weeks of this, two, three months of sleeping on the floor without education, without parental contact -- and these are babies, these are kids. that would make the republicans look bad. >> you first, howard. >> there are a number of republicans beginning to worry and wonder about that. it's fascinating to watch in the conservative movement what amounts to a war between rush limbaugh and glenn beck. >> explain. >> glenn beck who can be scary on a number of fronts and an ultra conservative, ultra libertarian, call him what you will, he's expressed a lot of concern and a sense of

compassion and expressed the need to do something. it is a humanitarian potential if not actual crisis on the border. >> what's limbaugh say? >> build the fence, secure the border. he's totally taken the let's stop the flow, let's be afraid, let's blame barack obama for having a conspiracy to let illegals in. i mean, that's where some of the republican thinking is. i think there are a number of republicans -- glenn beck oddly enough, karl rove to name another -- and several others saying, hey, wait a minute. even before the 2014 elections which is what this calculation is about. even before 2014 , the republicans need to change their tone in substance about this. right now, john boehner is being controlled by the tea party caucus in his chamber. and harry reid doesn't are have

the full detailed, full-out backing of the white house with details about what the $3.7 billion is for. with willingness to change the 2008 law. everybody is sitting on their hands. it is a humanitarian crisis. >> glenn beck sends teddy bears to the kids. how can that hurt? we have a right as americans to have a border rule and enforce it. it should be progressive. are rick perry got in trouble for in-state tuition for children of illegal immigrants, right? the kids. marco rubio got in trouble for talking reform. seems like the republicans have are a wall. if you show compassion or looseness in terms of people here illegally without paper or you show you are shaking hands with the president on any issue, you're dead meat. >> especially on immigration. the republican party has to get out of the cocoon where the moderates that have been reasonable like former president bush. >> and lindsey graham.

>> and lindsey graham and say, look, we can't continue doing this. it's going to look awful if the kids from central america that are fleeing from oppressive governments. >> how about they get sick? >> there are diseases coming in, too. the smugglers and traffickers get rich, exploit kids and families that somehow the pictures will be such that republicans will lose hispanics not just this election but in 2016. really you can't say, these are central americans. these aren't mexican americans. the politics for the republican party are explosive. now different for the president. you know, the president, i think, has to move forward. >> he touched the pot potato and talked about revising the law. >> what should be explored is maybe an executive way. through an executive order that law could be tightened and clarified.

but what has to happen. >> you know the republicans are watching him like a hawk. any administrative action he takes. any executive order. generally they think any time he does anything administratively he should be impeached or sued. >> another step, chris. the governments of honduras, el salvador and guatemala are our friends but they are doing nothing. they see a safety valve. let it happen. it's not our problem. it's the u.s.'s problem. >> wait a minute. when castro, who i never liked, unloaded the boatload costing bill clinton the re-election he had people with mental problems, criminals down there. these are the victims, not the bad people. he's not getting rid of the drug dealers. they are the victims. >> a lot of drug dealers and smugglers that exploit the kid has the governments could control better than they are doing. >> this is what speaker boehner's caucus wants done on

the border. they want to limit the law designed to express children against human trafficking which president obama is looking at doing as well. we have been talking about it. senators mccain and flake want mandatory detention or monitoring of the young people at the border including ankle bracelets or monitors. others want to cut off aid to the dangerous central american countries themselves, many of which are plagued by gangs and violent criminals. john boehner wants to send in the national guard to help guard the border. howard. i think we all know ankle bracelets on 8-year-olds seems extreme. you don't do it to tax evaderers let alone to kids. your thoughts? >> my thoughts based on the campaigns i have covered and tea party rallies i attended. this is about holding up a hand saying stop, no. saying the president is somehow not on our side, that somehow he

doesn't have america's best interests at heart. the it is a deeply emotional and xenophobic appeal. sure, there are problems at the border, problems with immigration. sure, the central american countries aren't always cooperative and the problems the governor talks about are are real. what the republicans care about for addressing the core constituents this the 2014 midterm elections -- low turn out elections -- is that fear factor. it's the fear factor they address with these measures, talking only about deterrents. talking only about sending people back. only about military solutions. they are sort of trying to do on a domestic basis what they used to do to democrats in foreign policy and defense. they are weak. somehow democrats are weak. instead of the communists that we were weak in the face of, it's the immigrants that we are weak in the face of. that's the emotional appeal to the base of the republican party that i think the republicans are going to pursue in 2014 no

matter what the consequences for 2016. the only question is if it can hurt them in 2014. that's something rove is worried about. >> the problem is this is a result of the failure of the congress not coming up with immigration reform which would address the issue of border security. technology. plugging this loophole. >> yeah. >> the legalization, the path to citizenship for the 11 million. and the economic issue. the hb-1 visas. skilled workers. bringing them in. good for the economy. immigration reform is dead. any maneuver or piece of legislation that deals with it is immediately suspect. i know i'm biased, but the republican party, the emergence of that middle has to come up and stop this or they are going

to be hurt. >> always liked you, sir. thanks for coming on the show. howard fineman, you know your stuff. coming up, if john boehner's attempt to sue president obama was to put off impeachment talk it's done the opposite. it put more gasoline in the fire. and the facts proved to be the right enemy again in benghazi. we know now the stand-down order preventing aid never came from hillary clinton or any other administration official. it was from the military itself. please proceed, chairman issa. plus, a treat for fans of "orange is the new black," piper's book which inspired the series joins us tonight. finally, shutting down the government didn't stop certain other activities. we are talking baby boom. it's like when the lights went out in new york. this is "hardball," the place for politics. kid: hey dad, who was that man? dad: he's our broker. he helps looks after all our money.

kid: do you pay him? dad: of course. kid: how much? dad: i don't know exactly. kid: what if you're not happy? does he have to pay you back? dad: nope. kid: why not? dad: it doesn't work that way. kid: why not? vo: are you asking enough questions about the way your wealth is managed? wealth management at charles schwab you think it smells fine, but your passengers smell this... eliminate odors you've gone noseblind to for up to 30 days with the febreze car vent clip. female passenger: wow. smells good in here. vo: so you and your passengers can breathe happy.

if new jersey governor chris christie who faces all kinds of legal questions back home wants to win the republican presidential nomination for 2016, he's got to win new hampshire. that primary. so far he looks good up there. according to a granite state poll in the university of new hampshire, chris christie leads the republican field in new hampshire by five points. look at him up there. chr christie on top. rand paul, second at 14. followed by jeb bush at 11. mike huckabee and marco rubio round are out the top five with 8% each. it's worth noting if mitt romney got in he would dominate with 40% support. i think romney is getting in the race. i don't think christie will make the race. wrooik. a dry mouth can be a side effect of many medications but it can also lead to tooth decay and bad breath. that's why there's biotene. available as an oral rinse, toothpaste, spray or gel,

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welcome back to "hardball." the attempt at impeachment may

have poured gasoline onto the fire. if boehner thought he could satisfy the lions in the party to impeach the president with a lawsuit it didn't work as sarah palin made clear on fox news, the lawsuit is a weak effort at best. >> americans, congress, those who are concerned about protecting our constitution and using the one tool that congress does have are to halt what is going on -- this lawlessness from the top -- the one tool they have are articles of impeachment. let's get going on that. it's not necessarily, sean, a lawsuit being filed by congress because you don't bring a lawsuit to a gun fight. >> everybody is a little worse when they do sean hannity. boehner's lawsuit which will sue the president over a delay in the affordable care act employer mandate provision will hardly be the red meat to satisfy the crazies. joining me is former vermont governor howard dean and ron

reagan. i like you both. i like boehner. i sympathize with him as the beaten upon business guy trying to save the business. yet he comes on, luke russert asks a question and he looks like he'll burst into tears. i just want to sue the president, not impeach him. his suit is sonar r narrow and people are jumping on him like sarah palin. >> it's fascinating to watch the republican party implode. the segment earlier where the republican party was characterized by the tea party extreme made me think,s where is the joe mccarthy moment, the joe walsh or the ralph flanders standing up to somebody in his own party and calling him out. that's what will happen . boehner -- i'm -- when he came into office i thought this guy's

got what it takes to be speaker. he's a republican. i won't agree with him. he doesn't have are what it takes. he's trying to temperize the whole time. he's lacked the guts except in a few instances to stand up against the extreme right. the republicans are going to implode over this stuff. i think it may happen in 2014. they may snatch defeat from the jaws of victory in 2014. >> along that line do you think he might be scared that his number one friend eric cantor gets knocked off? two days later he has an idea of suing the president. he seems like his way of eliminating himself is to offer impeachment light, if you will. >> he's a nuts and bolts guy he's forgoting it's courage.

we haven't seen any yet except in rare instances where he did team up to over throw the tea party for a reasonable piece of legislation. this is bupkus, as they say. it is. i'm not a lawyer. but first of all, i can't imagine they have standing. what harm has congress done. second, it looks awful politically. they have to go to the court to rea resolve? this third, they have now voted down obamacare 45 times. now they are going to try the courts and now, 9.5 million americans have have health insurance including conservative people who are pleasantly surprised by this? i'm scratching my head. >> how's your yiddish tonight, ron? i don't know if we call him a

schlmiel. he thought after cantor got knocked off he would be tough by pushing a lawsuit at which point sarah palin comes out like jimmy in "the untouchables," don't bring a lawsuit to the gun fight. she thinks she's a chicago cop. welcome back. >> thank you. well, as a political party you can hardly lose by following sarah palin's advice, can you? why does she have to bring guns into every discussion? i'm not sure. >> she's a bear killer. >> exactly. here's the republican party once again presenting themselves with all sorts of catch-22 situations. i assume john boehner is trying to appeal, as well as to people in his party there in congress, the 20% of america that's really the most ignorant 20% of america. i.e., the republican base. the problem with that is while you are appealing to the ignorant 20%, 80% of the country think s you're crazy and

irresponsible. as you have pointed out, the second catch-22. he's trying to placate his fellow republicans in congress. see, i will do this lawsuit thing so maybe you will put away your impeachment stuff. no, no. they want him handing out pitch forks and torches. they want him to suggest we draw and quarter obama on the south lawn. that's where they are going. this thing isn't going to satisfy them in the least. >> you have given them a new standard. draw and quartering the president. if you're not for that you're not a republican. the lawsuit appears to have energized president obama. he's making movie references now. here he goes. >> there is a movie called "the departed." a little violent for kids. there is a scene where mark wahlberg, they're on a stakeout. somehow the guy loses the guy that they're tracking. wahlberg's upset. yelling at the guy. the guy looks up and says, who

are you? wahlberg says, i'm the guy doing my job. you must be the other guy. sometimes i feel like saying to these guys, i'm the guy doing my job. you must be the other guy. >> well, the president is doing movie references more than he used to. the president is pointing out he's not running for office again. let's listen. >> so when folks say they are frustrated with congress, let's be clear about what the problem is. i'm just telling the truth now. i don't have to run for office again. so i can just -- you know, let her rip. >> governor, thanks for joining us tonight. i just wonder what a joke this is. i love politics. i believe the system works. i still believe it. when they spend all this time on

benghazi and refusing to help the president deal with 50,000 kids which is not immigration. it's humanity. let's deal with the kids. make sure they are taken care of, get their rights. it's not about the long term big questions. they can't deal with the basic blocking and tackling of politics which is cutting a deal when you have to and moving on like pelosi suggested you have to do in these situations. >> i think that's right. if i were leading the republican party i would say, okay, mr. president. i will give you $3.7 billion. now in this bill is going to be border security. why not? then they can declare a victoria ary to their friends. >> why can't they do that? >> because they have lost their way. honestly, are there are a great many of them that are incapable. i saw the chairman of the finance committee talk about -- of one of the committees in the house. banking committee, i guess it

was. talking about how the restrictions on banks are hurt ing the economy. the restrictions on banks are hurting the economy? how did we get into the economy? we got into the economy by not having the restrictions on big banks. >> of course! >> this is ideological nonsense. it reminds me of the who lost china debate in the 1950s where one side is frothing at the mouth and finding communists under every bed and the other side including reasonable republicans like dwight eisenhower are trying to run the country. i think the american people look at this. i'm predicting now we hold the senate 52-48. >> good for you. i hope you're right. let me go to ron. i think the governor is right are. a lot of lawmakers are sitting around reading ayn rand's "atlas shrugged" like the little red book of mao. all we have to do is deregulate which is how we got into the problem in terms of the financial crisis. everybody knows that we got into problem because of deregulation. they say the answer is deregulation.

>> the sub text for all of this whether it's the affordable care act is the idea that the government can't do anything good. you can't let government do anything whether it's health care or immigration. >> don't they win that argument? >> by screwing everything up, you prove that government can't do anything good. if obama is going to do something, even something the republicans want to do like more border enforcement, no, you can't let him do it either. then his government would be doing something good even if it's something you want them to do. >> ron, it's that sick. >> it is. >> they want to do deeply because it might give this guy a brownie point. thank you. governor dean, great to have you back. ron, take care. up next, the one lively and productive side to last year's government shutdown. it was productive.

you need to see this staory. this is "hardball," the place for politics.

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back to "hardball" . time for the sideshow. recent news suggests there may have been at least one positive outcome from last october's government shutdown. in this case it took a full nine months before anyone could evaluate the data with conclusive results. doctors noticed a baby boom this the washington area lately with sibley memorial hospital reporting live births are up by three per day. despite being furlowed from jobs during the shutdown, thousands of government workers at home were still able to keep themselves -- busy. well done, washington. finally the u.s. selective service in charge of draft americans to serve the military should the need arrive.

draft registration noticeses were accidentally sent to 14,000 men born in the years between 1893 and 1897. yes, you heard that correctly. the recipients would be well over 100 years old today. as you can imagine the mistake left many of the living grandchildren and great grandchildren of those addres e addressees baffled. the culprit was a computer glitch which confused the 20th century with the 19th. the agency didn't realize they loaded the wrong database onto the letters until they had gone out. you heard it here. this is why people have a problem believing in government effectiveness. next, new facts disprove the right wing accusations over benghazi. it turns out the military never got a stand down order from hillary clinton or anyone else. that's ahead. you're watching "hardball," the place for politics. really... so our business can be on at&t's network for $175 dollars a month? yup. all five of you for $175. our clients need a lot of attention.

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i'm page hopkins. here's what's happening. the 15-year-old girl who survived the texas shooting rampage that left her family dead is out of the hospital. ronald lee haskill is charged with murdering her parents and four siblings. he was in court today. benjamin netanyahu said air strikes won't stop until rocket fire is halted. russian president vladimir putin met with fidel castro in cuba. the two spoke for about an hour. now we'll take you back to "hardball." welcome back. now there is fresh indication from are the obama administration on benghazi that won't make critics on the right happy. outspoken critics to the response to the 2012 benghazi attacks like darryl issa and

jason chafetz have are said somebody perhaps hillary clinton gave a stand down order. but on wednesday of this week transcripts of closed door interviews with nine military officials conducted by leaders from two gop-controlled house committees, republican committees, were released. those military leaders said republicans are are just wrong. no stand-down order was given for the attacks on benghazi. the decision to remain in tripoli was a military one, not a political one. the associated press writes, "the senior military officer who issued the instruction to remain in place to those military people and the detachment leader who received it said it was the right decision, it turns out and has been mischaracterized by the media and opposition." this from a third house committee controlled by the gop. a new special select committee plans to spend as much as $3.3

million to conduct another investigation into benghazi. these revelations not only vindicate president obama and hillary clinton who critics say were guilty of dereliction of duty but dealt a blow to right wing hopes to turn the benghazi tragedy into an election issue to hurt democrats this november and beyond. msnbc political analyst david corn is washington bureau chief from mother jones, and michelle bernard of the bernard center for women, politics, and publics policy. i bow to you, sir. your good at this. how does this challenge the narrative that somehow hillary clinton was screwing around, didn't take it seriously. actively said don't send anybody to help. >> you know, it doesn't change anything. we knew it already. some of the guys had testified or told reporters the same story. the fact that their testimony -- >> where are did the stand down -- the secretary of state, secretary of whatever or the president said don't let those guys go help from tripoli to

benghazi? >> darryl issa and chaffetz and others, even trey goudy they brought in to head up the investigationing have are all suggested or said explicitly there was a stand down -- >> where did they get it from? >> i don't know. >> they dreamed it up? >> it involves four special operations officers in tripoli. the idea that they could fly 600 miles to benghazi and stop something after the it was under way was bizarre to begin with. they were never told to stand down. they stayed in place in tripoli and one saved the life of somebody brought back. but we knew this. it's not going to change anything. again, you have to wonder. what did thes house republicans have -- talking points? that doesn't mean anything. the stand-down order? hillary clinton isn't in the chain of command. you couldn't give a stand down command to military officers. but that's gone now.

it's quite a mystery what they will spend $3 million on over the next year. >> it's become one of those things like el dorado, a place they are looking for somebody. the land of gold and youth forever. >> the fountain of youth. where are they going with benghazi? >> i think they believe if they say it over and over, someone will believe it. look at hillary clinton. they are obviously doing it because she will likely run for president. if she wants it, i believe it's hers. if you look at the conservative website, they have a big sur va out there. i think it fore shaw maddows what to come. vote for the worst hillary clinton scandal. they have benghazi number one. whitewater number two. vince foster number three. travelgate number four and the

next one says -- the next one. after that, i'm not sure. >> even travel gate wasn't a big deal. >> this is all they have. this is the 2016 game plan. travel gate, benghazi, scandal, scandal. nothing left to do. >> i think benghazi has become not a matter of reality but theology for the republican base. they believe it doesn't matter what the facts are are, that obama or hillary, probably both conspired to do something. >> to kill -- they believe they conspired to kill americans. it is absolutely -- >> they killed vince foster and then this guy. >> trey goudy says he goes back to his district in south carolina and the number one question on people's mind is benghazi. the people come up to him. they don't ask about the economy, about iraq. they ask about benghazi. >> he's chairing a committee on it. >> they are living in a different world. >> anyway, let's look back at some of the harsh words they

made against the obama administration. of course also against secretary clinton. here is a list of some of the attacks, starting with utah republican jason chafetz on fox. >> the administration, including secretary panetta weres are crystal clear. there were no military assets. i've got to tell you, we had proximity, capability, four individuals in libya, armed, ready to go, dressed, about to get in the car to go to the airport to help their fellow countrymen who were diagnose, killed, under attack and they were told to stand down. sean, of all the things i have seen that's as sickening, depressing, disgusting as anything i have seen. that's not the american way. we had people that were getting killed. we had people who were willing to risk their lives to save them. somebody told them to stand down. >> oh, somebody. isn't that cute? here's house government oversight chairman darryl issa speaking to new hampshire republicans this february.

>> why there is not one order given to turn on one department of defense asset, i have my suspicions which is secretary clinton told leon to stand down. >> again, i notice the worst of the republican craziness occurs on sean hannity's show. it's like nixon talking to haldeman. he's at his worst. >> again, i have my suspicions. this guy is the chairman of a very important house committee. that's a job in washington that comes with a certain amount of responsibility. >> and staff. >> and staff. >> a lot of staff. >> and money. >> to say i have my suspicions of hillary clinton, not an iota of proof and what jason said is one of the most irresponsible things. the four guys and the fellow who led the detachment said they weren't told to stand down. they were told to stay and protect assets in tripoli.

he's wrong. will anybody get an apology out of him? i don't think. >> it's really irresponsible. hint, hint, it has to be hillary. >> because she's a threat. many people believe hillary is to the right of president obama on military issues. that she's more hawkish. >> i'm one of those. >> i believe it. >> they think she can beat them. >> if they look at her book and see what she said about syria, they are scared. they want to say hillary clinton was in cahoots with panetta to override the instructions of the president of the united states to do what you could to save our people and watch americans be slaughtered in benghazi. >> this is glenn beck talk. this is rush limbaugh talk. people who say things without knowing anything. >> there is a word for it. >> paranoia? >> mccarthyism. hint, hint. david corn. you are, right? >> yes. >> and michelle bernard. thanks.

up next, the show "orange is the new black" is up for 12 emmys, a dozen. when we return we'll talk to piper kerman whose stint in prison inspired this show. what we have to learn about this. "orange is the new black," coming up. this is "hardball," the place for politics. worried shampooing might damdon't be.hair? new pantene brings new repair & protect. clinically proven to make hair healthier with every wash. new hair. new you. new repair & protect... ..from new pantene. don't just visit new york visit tripadvisor new york with millions of reviews, tripadvisor makes any destination better.

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basketball association announced he's leaving the miami heat to return to cleveland where he played the first seven years of his spectacular career. james made the announcement in a first person essay on sportsillustrated.com titled "i'm coming home." we'll be right back after this. kid: hey dad, who was that man? dad: he's our broker. he helps looks after all our money. kid: do you pay him? dad: of course. kid: how much? dad: i don't know exactly. kid: what if you're not happy? does he have to pay you back? dad: nope. kid: why not? dad: it doesn't work that way. kid: why not? vo: are you asking enough questions about the way your wealth is managed? wealth management at charles schwab

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>> no. this -- this is art. this is a yellow warbler drinking out of a daffodil. she just cannot get enough. i'm calling it "thirsty bird." it's almost done. >> smells like old easter in here. >> i hate cooked yolks. >> you won't be finishing. >> what's happening? >> or annoying the crap out of me. stand up on your feet, inmate. do you need to pee? >> i need to know what's going on. >> that was a scene from season 2 of "orange is the new black" on netflix. the show was nominated for 12 emmys including best comedy. the surprise hit is set this a minimum security women with's prison in connecticut, loosely based on the memoir of piper kerman who served 13 months in 2004 and 2005. like the lead character in the show she was an unlikely felon with a fancy education including smith college and a middle class background. in her 20s she dated an older woman involved in an

international heroin trafficking ring. kerman became a courier. she was arrested and pled guilty to money laundering. her 2010 book "orange is the new black" tells the story of her b. she's now a prison reform advocate. piper kerman joins me now. thank you so much for coming here today. it's great to you on, and i want to ask you about what you know that we don't know, my favorite question. tell me about the part of prison life and the year you spent there that would surprise the person who's lucky enough never to do that. >> well, chris, thanks for having me this afternoon. it's nice to see you. i think the thing that is most surprising to many people about surviving a prison sentence is the fact that you will rely so heavily on the other prisoners. people think that going to prison, the worst thing about prison will be other prisoners. that's far from true in my experience. >> that they can be helpful? >> i mean, my experience was

that the reason that i survived prison was because of the kindness of the other women i was doing time with. it's a community. it's a strange involuntary community. no one wants to be there. that's for sure. but it is a community nonetheless, and i treasure the friendships that i made with some of those women that i did time with. >> from what you know, and you were only in women's prison, and i was at a medium security prison for a night out in nashville one time with a group called the dismas townation tfo helps them when they get out, named from the good thief, a group. women are kindful for each other and don't create the fearful predatory from males. is that true? >> it's true, chris, i've never been incarcerated in a men's prison, so it's hard for me to speculate too much, but i have visited men's prisons including, you know, state men's prisons

with guys who have very serious fell l felonies. there's such a huge maze of prisons and jails in this country that there are big differences between let's say a city or a county jail versus a minimum security federal prison camp. the kind of place where i did northea most of my time or a high security state prison. those are really different places with folks who are struggling with different kinds of conditions and they're there for different reasons. so you'll find really different settings. regardless of gender, i think. >> i get this sense that a lot of women are in prison -- maybe this is a comment i shouldn't make but i think it's true, they get in with the wrong guy. and -- go ahead. take it. >> some -- i believe it might be senator sessions has referred to this as the girlfriend problem. women are overwhelmingly incarcerated for nonviolent offenses. 2/3 of women in prison are there for a nonviolent offense and

very often drug offenses. it's absolutely true that many women, like me, get involved in a relationship with someone who is involved with narcotics or some other crime. >> yeah. >> and that is the begin of a slippery slope. certainly that was true for many of the women that i did time -- >> how many of them are these kind of things like cashing bad checks over and over again and that kind of desperate action of a person who doesn't have an education or that maybe the right personality to get a job. i don't know. tell me about those women that just were down and out to start with. >> well, i mean, where i did time in connecticut, i was not the only middle class woman in that prison by any stretch of the imagination. and some of the other women who might be described as middle class were there for things like check kiting. a lot of those women had gambling addictions. there are different things that drive women's involvement in crime, bu the three most consistent things we know drive their involvement in crime are substance abuse and mental illness and an experience of either sexual violence or other

physical violence in their personal history. those are the three things that are overwhelmingly held in common among women in the criminal justice system and drive them into crime. yeah. >> am i wrong to say that some of them are dragged into it by the wrong company, male or female, that they just rely on people that lure them into it? you know more than i do. >> i think that -- i think that people get involved in networks of people who offer them either safety or opportunity. the vast majority of people in prison in this country come from our poorest communities. you know, 80% of people who are accused of a crime are too poor to afford a lawyer. so you see folks who are dealing with much more narrow opportunities than the kinds of opportunities that i had, for example. you know, i had a first class public education and, you know, access to college, all those kinds of things. so that's not true for most people who get caught up in the system. >> that's what i felt, too. a lot of people had a very hard

time in life to begin with. piper, thank you. >> thanks. >> great to meet you. i think you're doing great work. >> thank you. >> we'll be right back after this. light 4 it blends in doesn't build up for a flawless nude look find your trublend at easy breezy beautiful covergirl

let me finish tonight with this benghazi thing. to me there's been one fine target here for the republicans. it's to somehow show that the president and/or the secretary of state didn't do all that was humanly possible to save the american ambassador and his people, didn't spend those hours working the phone, working every option to get help to them while

there was still a chance to save them. anything less than that would be the kind of dereliction of duty, of course, to warrant historic condemnation. this has been the charge. the adversaries of president obama and former secretary clinton have been advancing. it's a shot to the heart, of course, an attempt to bring both or either of them down with a single bullet. well, based on the freshest information, they missed. the military people involved on the ground in libya at that time say there was never an order from the political people to stand down. one telling them not to go to the aid of the diplomats ledley ambassador chris stevens in benghazi. the order to remain instead in tripoli to guard the facilities in that area came instead from the military higher-ups, themselves. so looks right now that this shot to the heart directed at obama and clinton was wide of the mark. we now know neither of them acted to prevent an aggressive move to save stevens and the othe others. this leaves trey gowdy to build

the case obama and clinton were di distracted with less dire business. one thing is certain today than was not before, neither the president or the secretary acted against the dire, dreadful situation of our man in benghazi. and that's "hardball" for now. thanks for watching. "all in with chris hayes" starts right now. >> tonight, we are "all in." >> our border is not open -- >> immigration crisis on the border. dhs says it's running out of money to deal with the situation. and the militia has landed. >> we are here to assist law enforcement. >> all the latest from the border including the disease hysteria. >> measles, skabcabies and lice >> we don't know all the diseases. >> tonight a report claiming migrant kids are likely better vaccinated than texas kids. then john boehner's lawsuit