there's not one way to do something. no details too small. american express open forum. this is what membership is. this is what membership does. how would you cope with 52,000 unexpected house guests? good morning. thanks forgetting up early to start your sunday with us. i'm jonathan capehart in for steve kornacki. there are a lot of stories to get to this morning. we want to get started with the humanitarian crisis stim unfolding along the u.s. border with mexico. we've seen what it looks like when huge numbers of people flee their homes and show up somewhere else. this is a refugee camp in iraq housing people trying to escape the recent violence to the south. this is a refugee camp for

syrians who made their weigh to the border with lebanon. these are people collecting their rations at a refugee camp in south sudan. what should we call the huge number of people showing up at the u.s. border with mexico? are they refugees who need protection from violence back home or are they undocumented immigrants who should be sent back home? this morning we'll dig deeper into the question. no matter what you call the arrivals tu.s. government has to deal with the logistics of coping with so many unexpected people. there are risks of making the trip in the first place a. 15-year-old boy was buried in his hometown in guatemala found dead in texas. he apparently got lost on his trip north and is thought to have died of sun exposure. he had scratched the name of his brother in chicago inside his belt. his family said they hoped to find work to help pay his mother's medical bills. let's go to nbc's mark potter in

texas. can you del us more about how these deaths occur? >> reporter: unlike arizona where there's the desert border where people die close to the border, in texas they tend to die further north. the way that occurs is they come across the river here. if they get past the border patrol they then are picked up by smugglers and put into stash houses and then put in cars and driven north. on hi way 281 there's a problem area about 60, 70 miles north. there's a border patrol checkpoint there. the smugglers will stop just south of that checkpoint, a mile or so, and have tim grants get out and walk around the checkpoint on that ranch land there, and that's very tough terrain. it's san dirks hard to walk in. it's hot. fences you have to climb through, often not a lot of water. people have died there by the

hundreds. ranch hands dr. mike and linda vickers have had a lot of people die there on their land. now there's a lot of attention on this. that's why the deaths here are farther north than along the border. jonathan? >> mark, i understand you recently did a ride-along with the border patrol. >> reporter: i did. we just went out with them. we noticed two things. first of all, the flow continues. there's still a steady flow. we were out and just in the first 30 minutes we found another group and within the next hour or so we found two more right here along the liver, east and west of where i'm standing now. we also noticed another thing. that is the flow is starting to diminish somewhat. we don't know if that's a permanent trend or if that's a temporary lull. it's noticeable, by about a third. border patrol agents say in the last couple weeks they were

getting 1400 to 1500 people a day in the rio grande valley sector. now about 1,000 a day. sometimes even lower than that. the big question is why. is it because the train derailed a couple of times last week in mexico? is it because the messaging from washington getting through? is it because the message from the smugglers selling the trips aren't getting through or is it because it's hot, july typically a low month. they'll give it a week or two to determine if this is permanent or an unusual twist. >> mark potter, thanks very much forgetting up this morning. >> reporter: thank you. president obama's latest effort to deal with the border crisis looks like it has little chance to get through congress. he asked lawmakers to approve a $3.7 million emergency republican. republican congress hall rogers,

chairman of the appropriations committee says that's too much money. texas governor rick perry earlier rejected the invitation saying a handshake wouldn't be enough time to discuss the border crisis. governor perry attended a roundtable discussion that the president held with local officials but the meeting went only so far in winning perry over. >> i think people's actions are what he's going to get judged by, not by his words. whether i trust him or not is not the issue. this is about americans and americans feeling secure that that border is indeed a safe and secure place. it's not today. so i think the burden is on the president to show us with his actions -- >> president obama, meanwhile, took his own shot at republicans for ignoring the problem. >> what i emphasized to the governor was the problem here is not a major disagreement about the actions that could be

helpful in dealing with the problem. the challenge is, is congress prepared to act to put the resources in place to get this done? another way of putting it, and i said this directly to the governor, are folks more interested in politics or more interested in solving the problem. >> here to discuss that question, christina ball tony, editor and chief of role call, u.s.a. columnist raul diaz. and now a principal with the raven group, a progressive communications firm. raul, we'll start with you. here is the question. is the policy getting lost amid all the politics? >> completely. what we're seeing now, especially with rick perry, he's using this border crisis very much as a way to reposition him back into national debate and guest past the image that a lot

of people have of him as governor oops. the thing s the president is pushing certain measures that republican members of congress have said that they want. they're still pushing back on it. yet, the timing for all this has been so disastrous for the president in the sense that this was supposed to be the time when he was laying the groundwork for executive action, calling out republicans for their inaction on immigration reform so he could take immigration action in august. this is all pushed aside and getting caught up in the blame game and the finger-pointing, sort of a republican pile-on on the president with not much, by the way of bipartisan solutions being presented. >> christina, you're itching to get in here. >> it's interesting from a policy perspective. in my opinion immigration reform has been dead for many months. more than a year since it passed. you have a measure presented before the congress. the congress is asking for $3.8 billion. this is an emergency supplemental spending bill, he

threw in money for real priorities, fire relief and a few other things to be able to force them to take action. in a way you might see some policy changes here that you are never going to see in a midterm election year and that immigration reform bill, now you're tuflly seeing lawmakers want to put their stamp in. let's tinker with this program here or this program here in the form of a spending bill. >> i want to ask you another question about governor perry. let me place some more of what president obama said wednesday after his meeting with governor perry. >> he suggested, well, maybe you need to go ahead and act and that might convince republicans that they should go ahead and pass the supplemental. i had to rehind him, i'm getting sued right now by mr. boehner apparently for going ahead and acting instead of going through congress. >> so they can't even agree on the terms of what a stalemate is. >> and the president is enjoying this game, too.

he's laughing, saying mr. boehner is suing him -- by the way over the affordable care act not about executive action with immigration. they can't agree on anything right now. but again, this money is something they're going to have to figure out. >> anything coming from the republican party right now is deflection. deflection in order for the people to not remember they killed immigration reform, killed any comprehensive solution to the program. immigration reform included a lot of money to stop the criminal organizations and a lot of money for border security. in fact, bella left the chc because he thought it was too punitive. not passing immigration reform is directly related. anything you hear from them, any finger-pointing for the president is deflection to save face. >> so how is it possible that given -- you said some things here that i probably should have known but i didn't know. if i'm not aware of this, certainly a lot of people at home and across the country

don't know this. who is to blame for that? >> i think we all are. you said something in your intro that this was a sudden problem. from 2012, every single year, the number of kids apprehended at the border has more than doubled. if i'm rick perry or if i'm an organization on the border, i am very frustrated because we've been warning about this problem for many years. i question the governor's motives, but i don't question -- >> it emphasizes the system being broken for advocates approaching reform. this has been a constant problem. there's plenty of money down there and it's not fixing the crisis. maybe you have to look at the overarching system. >> or being used to prevent it. border security versus criminal organizations trafficking people to our border. >> one thing that's been very absent so far in this discussion is our role in creating this crisis in the sense that the guns that these traffickers have

and are using to destabilize the countries in the northern triangle, those guns come from us. our criminalization of the drug trade fuels those traffickers. our immigration enforcement when we started deporting violent gang members back to honduras, they regrouped. so they're stronger than ever. we have a direct role in the instability down there that's boomeranging back to our doorstep. policymakers here want to avoid that part of the equation. >> we've talked a lot about washington so far. but we're going to turn to the kids at the border who are driving this conversation. that's next. oh no... can you fix it, dad? yeah, i can fix that. (dad) i wanted a car that could handle anything. i fixed it! (dad) that's why i got a subaru legacy. (vo) symmetrical all-wheel drive plus 36 mpg. i gotta break more toys.

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we've been talking about the politics at the crisis of the border, but what drives a mother to send her child on a thousand

mile journey in thands of smugglers to the u.s. order. what compel as family make their child trudge through the desert without water and face physical violence throughout the trip. we've seen the pictures of the conditions those children are live being now in over corroded detention centers, but the conditions at home could be worse. a majority of these kids are being pushed out of home countries by violence, three countries in particular. first honduras the drug trade is rampant and the murder rate has doubled in the last six years. it now has the distinction of being the murder capital of the world. el salvador is overrun with gangs. a 14-year-old girl told the u.n. refugee agency she was escaping the gang violence that invaded their school. she said, i used to see reports on the tv every day about girls being buried with their

backpacks and uniforms. jesus delgado to go very far to go to school and i had to walk by myself. there was nowhere else i could go where i would be safer. in guatemala, many of the children are leaving the pursue better economic opportunities. a 2008 law signed by president bush requires these unaccompanied minors from central america to be treated differently than undocumented children from mexico and canada who are sent back across the border right away and said these children from non-contiguous countries are turned over to hhs with an opportunity to appear at an immigration hearing and consult with an advocate. there's a case to be made that they shouldn't be classified as immigrants, that they are refugees. washington has largely treated the border crisis as a domestic political issue. raul, is it really an international refugee crisis, one that needs a foreign policy solution? >> yes, it is. first of all, let me explain

real quickly the difference between refugees and asylum. refugees are when you are outside of the country and you apply to come here. another country has to accept you as refugees. asylum is what you ask for when you're already here. this of these children who are on their way would qualify potentially as refugees. the ones who are here would most likely qualify for asylum. it is an international -- this crisis does have an international dimension because the united states has treaties on precisely these things, refugees, asylum, how we treat people from armed conflicts around the world. the fact is, the united states, we accept less proportionately of refugees than many other countries around the world with far fewer resources. countries in northern europe, western europe, they take more refugees than we do, even countries such as iraq, jordan, the congo, proportionally they take more refugees than we do. when we talk about that 2008 law, one thing i think people

forget, not only was it bipartisan, but even people who are the immigration hard liners, people like steve king voted for that law, michele bachmann voted for that law, louie goemer voted for that law. it passed with strong support. the idea that thement is going to circumvent it or seek to change it, i think is very troubling to many immigrant advocates and human rights organizations. >> it's a weird coalition because the republican task force on capitol hill tasked with dealing with this is recommending that that law be amended to reflect the countries further south. you mentioned the congressional hispanic caucus. there's a lot of intense scrutiny of the idea to change this saying we need to stick together, this bill was hard fought and bipartisan and we need to keep it intact. any time there's children involved, it just creates a heightened level of expectation

for action. the country cannot stand for watching something like this happen. >> what kind of action, though? you see the video last week of people screaming at the buses yelling "go away, we don't want you here." what kind of action are we talking about? >> can we back up as to whether these are refugees or asylum -- >> governor o'malley calling them flat out refugees. >> and saying it's morally wrong to return children to sudden death. this is not just our problem. this is a regional problem. internal displacement in these countries, people literally moving around to see if they can get in a safer block has skyrocketed. asylum applications to neighboring countries has gone up 700%. this is a regional problem. as far as actions are concerned, it's in the best interest of these children to not stay in our detention centers. the speed factor is very

important as long as we do all the precautions, take all the precautions to make sure we analyze and know whether or not we're sending somebody back to the care of a loved one in a safe situation or whether we're sending somebody back to death. that's literally what we're talking about here. >> can which talk about the 2008 law which was passed by congress, as you were saying, overwhelmingly, bipartisan effort signed by president george w. bush in the twilight of his last term. the focus of the bill was on preventing sex trafficking, if i'm remembering correctly, of children. so we're seeing -- are we seeing an unintended consequence of this law? >> yes. and also, that 2008 law was, in fact, a reauthorization of the 2002 homeland security act. >> three times by congress. >> three times congress said they wanted to deal with this problem, recognizing that when -- for example, children from mexico can be directly returned. congress was looking at this problem and saw that when we

sent children right back to central america, it put them at risk for these traffickers and the cartels. now for us to disregard these protections, that could be, like you said, sending kids back to a death sentence. i really believe very strongly that -- look at this congress. they can't pass anything on immigration. is the one measure that they're going to pass on immigration to be one that says let's deport children? that would be a horrible mistake. >> it's a foreign policy issue as well. it's not just domestic political politics issue. four months after the midterms it is hard for anyone to remember that. one real quick thing, when we talk about that law, we are talking about trafficking and victims. what constitutes that. if someone leaves you on the border to die and you're trafficked, is that different from being sold into slavery? you're being trafficked. you're giving your money to criminal organizations to take you from place a to place b. that qualifies as trafficking and a victim category. >> that's a whole other

conversation we could have on a future show. that's a great question to end with. my thanks to nbc news contributor raul reyes. when we come back, we'll break out the time machine. stay with us. it's going to be a great trip. i can't wait to find out where we're going. hey... you guys mind warming this fella up for me? i'm gonna go back down, i saw some recyclables. make it happen with verizon xlte. find a car service. we've doubled our 4g lte bandwidth in cities coast to coast. thanks! sure. we've got a spike in temperature. so save the day... don't worry, i got this... oh yeah, i see your spaceship's broken. with xlte on largest, most reliable network. get 50% off smartphones like the new lg g3.

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there was the high risk mission to capture osama bin laden, an economy to save and an oil spill in the gulf of mexico to clean up, all while raising two teenage daughters. add in a lawsuit by the speaker blocking his agenda at every turn. for all of that you should expect gray hairs. george w. bush looked noticeably grayer after two terms that included the 9/11 attacks and launching of two wars. bill clinton left with a headful of white hair after the monica lewinsky scandals. and long before the unforgiving lenses of high definition tv cameras, you can see a noticeable difference between abraham lincoln before the civil war and after. buzz feed tackled this topic this week and did it well. but is there actually any truth to the legend that presidents age faster than the rest of us, or are they simply under a lot more scrutiny?

joining me now is someone who has seen the physical toll of the presidency closer than anyone, former white house physician dr. connie mariano who served president bush, both father and son as well as president clinton. the founder of executive medicine author. christina bellantoni is still with us. after only 41 days president obama's gray hair was being discussed. i'm just wondering is that a coincidence or can the effects of the job show up that fast? >> actually because presidents live in a pressure cooker, constantly being stressed, jet lagged, you can actually see it that quickly. about three or four years ago there was an article out that one of the scientists postulated that for every year of the presidency, presidents agent two extra years. that's one of the theories that was out. >> that's incredible. christina, that is clearly a fun topic to talk about, but is

there also a serious side to this? does this impact the way the american people see the president and the president's leadership ability? >> no. i think the answer is no. it is a fun topic. you can see this is somebody has the weight of the world on their shoulders, whatever party you're with, this is a very difficult job and it ages you in all sorts of ways. no doubt he's not getting sleep. i brought a prop to this, i don't know if you can see it. this is me right after the 2008 campaign. i look better now. i am much older, same amount of gray hair, but in better physical condition. i'm able to sleep and rest in a way i wasn't from the campaign trail. this is a very, very tough job. the only way to sort of beat the cause of aging is to try to get some r &r. this is one reason i would never want to run for president. >> one of many reasons. >> dr. mariano, president obama

is seen as one of the most active presidents in recent history, he works out, basketball, plays golf. the first lady is serious about exercise and healthy eating. does lifestyle of the president matter as much as the demands of the job? >> absolutely. lifestyle is number one. one of the things i like to look at is longevity of presidents. we find it ironic that as they age, in the span of eight years, they age dramatically. one of the things people don't realize, even though they age before our eyes, they outlive most of us. even though the president visibly ages in eight years he is going to live longer than most of us around. but lifestyle is number one. genetics is about 25, 30% genetics in terms of how long you're going to live. but 70, 75% of what's going to influence your life span is your lifestyle. most importantly it's exercise

of relaxation, surrounding yourself with loving people, your diet, all those things are important. >> it's interesting, too, because we don't know that much about how the president's family would have aged because both his mother and father are dead. you don't necessarily see what they would have looked like had they reached an old age. he slowed down quite a bit. i was a pool reporter last weekend when he went golfing i. took him a lot longer to do 18 holes than it did when he first took office. >> i know you said a second ago you wouldn't run for president because of the wear and tear that the campaign had on you. what kind of impact does this have on maybe future as prants for the job. >> the undertone is hillary clinton. we have seen -- we're not talking about her in this segment, she has the weight of the world on this. she -- it is enormous difficulty

to travel so frequently, to not get sleep. to have to deal with these big issues. that's takes a complete physical toll on you. anybody thinking about running for president needs to be aware of that. >> let me ask you this, do you think this whole conversation that we're having right now, will that stop if we do have a president hillary clinton, if we have a woman president? >> are you kidding me? it will be worse. these are going to be the pictures we're looking at for the next few years no matter what ends up happening with hillary clinton's decision. >> i want to thank former white house physician dr. connie mariano for being part of this discussion. thanks for coming on. the supposedly narrow supreme court ruling that just keeps getting broader. that's next. [ male announcer ] this is the age of knowing what you're made of.

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and other car insurance companies? yes. but you're progressive and they're them. -yes. -but they're here. -yes. -are you... -there? -yes. -no. -are you them? i'm me. but the lowest rate is from them. -yes. -so them's best rate is... here. so where are them? -aren't them here? -i already asked you that. -when? -feels like a while ago. want to take it from the top? rates for us and them. now that's progressive. call or click today. corporations are people, my friend. of course they are. >> when mitt romney said corporations are people, my friend, at the iowa state fair in 2011, he was criticized for it. thanks to the supreme court

hobby lobby ruling last night, corporations are becoming more like people in the eyes of the law. the supreme court ruled 5-4 that closely held corporations have their own religious freedom and the corporations can use their religious freedom to deny health insurance coverage for contraception as required by law. the court's majority insisted they were issuing a narrow decision. they said it applied only to businesses like hobby lobby and only to contraception. but after that, the conservative justices went back into the ruling and expanded its scope. they clarified that the court was allowing the denial of contraception to all forms of birth control covered by the affordable care act, not just the four methods that hobby lobby objected to in its lawsuit. then later in the week, the court seemed to erode the assurances in the hobby lobby decision that employees would still get contraceptive coverage once the corporations they worked for filed paperwork exempting them. some groups said the paperwork was against their religion and

the court agreed, granting a temporary order to a christian college that relieved it of the religious burden of filling out a form. democrats in krong are trying to reverse the impact of the hobby lobby ruling. on wednesday they introduced a new law to require companies to cover all contraceptions covered under the affordable care act. >> we are here to ensure that no ceo or corporation can come between people and their guaranteed to access to health care, period. >> here to discuss the growing implications of the hobby lobby ruling, gabby domenzain, justin snow, political editor and white house correspondent with lbgt magazine in washington and chris guider in, legal editor at buzzfeed. wheaton college didn't have to fill out paperwork notifying insurers it would need to

provide contraception gov raj. justice sotomayor included this line, those bound by our decisions usually believe they can take us at our word. not so today. to chris, have we ever seen anything like this before where the court erodes a decision that it just cited? >> this was definitely unexpected. this issue of the form and the non-profits was going on on the side while the for-profit decision was before the court with hobby lobby. but the fact is that in his majority opinion for the court, justice alito said, they relied upon the fact that there was this form option for non-profits to explain why there was another method of the congress and the administration getting across the contraception coverage.

so on monday of the week, they said -- samuel alito said, well, there's this form option, so obviously there's other ways of getting contraception coverage. before we left for the fourth of july holiday, the justices said, well, that might be a problem, too. >> gabby, i see you shaking your head. >> i'm confused by this whole thing. i'm glabflabbergasted by it. i don't know why i as a woman should go to my boss and say, do you think an iud is better than the pill? men's sexual choices and men's sexual decision making in medical are not questioned at all and women are continuously questioned on these choices. it doesn't make any sense to me that it's 2014 and this is what we're talking about. >> this the going to have political implications. even though the court said this ruling was narrow and only applied to closely held corporations, we then found out that half the workforce works for privately held corporations,

and so obviously i'm going to the political question. are democrats going to capitalize on this in the midterm? >> i don't even think they need to, right? 90-up-ish percent have taken birth control. we're flatly on the side of being able to make our own decisions. again, republicans and conservatives are drawing the line for us on this. this is something they're doing themselves. >> 95% of women have used birth control, but does that mean that they're all going to side with democrats on this issue? come on? >> as the only woman at the table, i can tell you -- >> i see you two deferring to gabby. >> i don't know of a women conservative or liberal that wants their decision to make their decisions for them on what birth control to use. there's an absolute ignorance of what the day-to-day implications

of this are for women. it's obvious that five old conservatives on the supreme court decided discrimination against women, it wasn't discrimination. it wasn't a problem, keep discriminating against them. >> justin, what executive actions are being considered by the white house to guarantee birth control coverage to employees of hobby lobby and other corporations with religious exemption? >> well, they haven't actually announced any executive orders yet. but we've heard that the white house is considering taking some sort of action which we've seen the president do a lot of lately when congress hasn't been on his side on various issues. we've also seen legislation introduced in congress where they're trying to combat this decision and trying to restore some of the coverage that was originally in the affordable care act. >> what's the likelihood given -- nothing gave gets done in washington, nothing gets done in congress. so you have senators murray and you dahl introducing this bill,

is it going to go anywhere? >> it's not going to go anywhere. the other thing is it's important to realize this wasn't a decision about what the constitution says which does in the long run make it more easily dealt with, even if not in this current congress, because this was a decision about what the religious freedom restoration act means and not a decision about what the first amendment means. so while the murray udall act relates to the contraception coverage, that doesn't change the larger ruling 507s about whether or not corporations have the ability to seek these sorts of religious exceptions. >> how surprising was it that the supreme court actually ruled that corporations are people, my friend? >> it wasn't as surprising as it was political -- able to be politically exploited. you can't really square the language in the religious freedom restoration act with

decisions like citizens united and come up with an answer where you don't allow that corporation to exercise this law, this statute, the religious freedom restoration act. >> i think as far as the political angle, your article was excellent in that regard, it's not just the implications for women, it's the implications for the lgbt community as well. >> which we'll talk about in the next segment finish your thought. >> what's going to happen when a corporation with a soul that prays that decides lbgt community don't go with their religion, no health care for you. >> gabby, my perfect segue for my panelists staying right here. how the hobby lobby ruling affects lgbt equality.

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we've been discussing the growing impact on the hobby lobby discussion on the health care of women. it can also undermine equal justice under the law for lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people. the day after the ruling faith-based leaders wrote a request to the president for an exemption to bar discrimination against lbgt employees among federal contractors. at the same time several prominent gay rights groups have withdrawn their support for the employee non-discrimination act or nda because of its broad religious exemption. joining the discussion is evan wilson, founder and president of freedom to marry from pittsburgh. thanks for being here. >> good to be with you. >> now that the supreme court has ruled corporations can have religious beliefs, what's stopping a corporation from discriminating against others?

>> in a way, that's a good question because the supreme court decision really opened a door that should never have been opened in the first place. on the other hand, even that decision made clear, at least on its own terms, that they were talking about from their point of view one narrow question, one narrow set of organizations and so on. it remains to be seen how faithful they are to those words. but decision by justice alito did make a point that this did not apply to the important government interests in prohibiting discrimination. justice kennedy in his c concurrence emphasized that point. that is clear is that there are others trying to take the hobby lobby decision and rush through that cracked open door with all kinds of horrors that would upset the balance that our country has struggled for in order to preserve civil rights as well as religious freedom. >> evan, given the discussion we had in the last segment about

how the court broadened its own ruling a few days later, does that add to the concern that people are -- should it add to the concern of folks that that door that everyone is trying to rush through isn't as narrow as they thought it was? >> well, yes. there's definitely a concern because there are certainly forces out in the country that have an agenda of using the guise to avert civil rights laws. this is going back to the civil rights act of 1964, the 50th anniversary of which we celebrate this year, there were the same efforts to say religious should be used as an excuse to do the very discrimination that the law prohibited. we need to be vigilant and fight against that effort this time as we were last time. >> jurisdiction tin, how inclined is the white house to make a broad religious exemption to the impending executive order they've been talking about for at least a month now? >> it's hard to say at this

point because they haven't actually revealed any of the language. what press secretary josh ernest saturday on friday is they are supporting the non-discrimination act as it stands with the religious exemption. when you're dealing with the executive order you're dealing with federal contractors, not just private employers. you're dealing with people who work with the federal government, who earn taxpayer money. as far as these groups that have pulled out of the employment non-discrimination act, groups like the aclu and the task force, national gay and lesbian task force, they're trying to send a message to the white house that this religious exemption is unacceptable and they were sort of caught in a contradictory position where they were supporting it in nda, but they were saying, no, you can't have that in the executive order that you're drafting. >> the thing that i found surprising in terms of the amount of support that's been withdrawn from nda is this was

building up since before the hobby lobby decision, at least since i think late april, early may, when we started seeing from clear nation on down and now the hobby lobby decision coming down and you see a flood of people saying no way to nda. the next thing is a broad civil rights bill for lgbt people. how likely is that to happen sf. >> i mean there has always been -- as the employment non-discrimination act which started being introduced in the mid '90s, as they've tried to bring on more and more republican support, they've expanded some of these exemptions. the religious exemption got to the point that some of the legal groups like the aclu and lambda legal have been saying they have issues with it, since it was introduced back in the beginning of the congress. now hobby lobby really gave them

an opportunity to decide once and for all to put their money where their mouth was and say no, this is too far, we've seen what can happen with these religious exemptions through what the supreme court did with the religious freedom restoration act. we need this discussion to happen now because they know enda is not going to pass in this congress because john boehner is not going to move it. this is a discussion about what's going to happen in the next congress. this omnibus bill would deal with housing, would deal with lending, would basically be like the civil rights act for lgbt people, is something people have been pushing and is where it began when it was originally introduced in the '70s. >> by bella ab sa of new york. we should also point out that the senate actually passed enda back in -- what year was that? >> last year, in november. >> last year.

time flies. real fast. we're running out of time. justin, you're there in the white house. can you tell us the reaction of folks in the white house to the gay groups saying we're not supporting enda anymore, don't broaden religious exemptions any further? >> it's an interesting situation for them because the president has come under fire from religious groups saying that he is anti-religious freedom. so if he doesn't put this religious exemption in this executive order, that's just going to draw fire. i think they also understand that this is a very precarious situation, and you are dealing with taxpayer dollars. at the same time when you're dealing with something like the employment non-discrimination act, you have to have republicans support that. at the end of the day, this religious exemption has been key to republican support. >> my thanks to evan wilson from the organization freedom to marry. thanks so much for coming on.

>> the rake ben group's gabby dough men zain. the latest of the incursion into gaza overnight. will democrats turn to elizabeth warren's message of populism to win in november? this is mike. his long race day starts with back pain... ...and a choice.

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israeli special forces made a brief ground incursion into gaza last night. the israeli military says they went in to destroy a missile launching site and four soldiers were wounded. it's the first time israel has put boots on the ground in this latest outbreak of violence and a sign there might be more israeli troops in gaza soon. the israeli air force has been dropping thousands of leaflets in northern gaza telling residents they need to leave and head south. more than 160 palestinians have been killed in the six-dais assault. hamas militants have fired about 700 rockets into israel during the last week, most intercepted by israel's new rocket defense system. msnbc will keep you updated on this story and we'll be right back. back.

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reality check. it's high, 2014 is more than halfway over. it means the midterm elections are less than four months away. the midterms are always tough on the party that hold it is white house. what are democrats supposed to do? this week some people said economic populism is the best approach to connect with voters and win this fall. and here is evidence this week to back that up. when asked what their top impression is of the two parties, most parties describe the gop as, quote, supports the wealthy, business and not for the people. for the democrats, the most popular description was for the people and for the working people. liberal, left wing or progressive was a close second. it goes to show that the democrats have a reputation for standing up for the little guy. many democrats are taking the populous message and running with it. joe biden is off to the networks conference in detroit. city of seattle passed a law to

raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour. chicago is backing the plan to raise its own minimum wage. congress steve israel says his research shows a strong message on income inequality is likely to have good results. there's been a lot of talk lately about elizabeth warren's influence on the democratic party, but can this really work to the democrats' advantage? i don't say that to be tin cal. i say that because i've seen it and heard it before. >> we have two americas with two health care systems, one for the privileged, another rationed by insurance companies. >> two public school systems, one for the haves and one for everybody else. where working families pay less and working families pay more. >> john edwards first made his case to end those two americans in 2004. he did it again four years later and both times didn't work. while i don't doubt the sincerity of the people making

these arguments, i question the american people's hungry for it. are bill deblasio and liz wealth warren riding something less like a wave and more like a bubble. is populism just a fad? joining me to discuss this, stan greenberg legendary democratic pollster who helped elect president clinton, austan goolsbee former chair of president obama's council of economic advisers now at the university of chicago. james peth kuk kiss, cnbc editor and christina ball bellantoni is back. >> why do you think the message is going to wrk with democrats this year and why is this time different? >> i think it's a very powerful moment for that message. by the way, we shouldn't look at edwards. we should remember that bill clinton ran on raising taxes on the wealthy, making sure everybody at top of the bottom of the ladder pay their fair

share of taxes. barack obama ran for president saying raising taxes on those above $250,000. these are central issues. this hasn't worked in the past, but especially resonant now because you have this long-term income decline for the middle class, a real restructuring going on and people are very conscious of it. at the same time they believe companies are disloyal to their workers. the average workers are struggling. they see the wealthy and business buying their way in politics and tilting the field against them. there's real power in battling for the middle class and asking corporations to pay their fair share and for politics to be operated on a more level basis. >> james, is this just the best thing democrats have in a bad year. aren't republicans going to cry class warfare? >> they may very well cry class warfare. i'm sure they will. people already think -- you're describing the status quo. people think democrats are more

for the middle class. back in 2012 election among people who wanted a president who cared about them, barack obama won overwhelming think, that's already the case. the president is still sitting at about 41% approval rating. when presidential ratings are that low, that plays a big impact in house races. you already described -- people already got that message, they're still unhappy with democrats. >> austin, that leads me to you. what's the internal view from the white house on moving on the economic populism front? >> well, look, there are two separate questions here. one is on -- are they good policies. the second is, it's a midterm election. all the examples you're citing are from presidential year elections when this kind of what the grand national message is makes much more of a difference than it does in a year like this, where near here the name of the game is trying to get your people to get out there and vote. this may be something that is popular among a majority of

americans. but those majority of americans, if they're not planning to go vote it is the people that are most ideologically centered who are going to get out and vote. i think this is a red flag to republicans. we can ask jimmy, but i think it runs the risk of generating even more backlash among this kind of narrow voting constituency in an off-term election. >> austin, let me follow up on that. is economic populism message enough to get people who don't normally vote in midterm elections to get out and vote? >> i don't think so. there's not much evidence that in presidential years this is that massive of a motivator and certainly in an off year i don't think there's a lot of history of this getting people out to vote. >> james, congressman paul ryan held hearings on poverty early this year. i want to play some of what he said about this. take a listen. >> we all have to do a better

job at challenging the status quo on how best to fight poverty. we've shared a lot of ideas together on how to do that. i think what we're trying to accomplish here is improving the tone of debate so more people are invited to this debate so we can do a better jobl of actually getting control of our problems with poverty. >> that was paul ryan speaking after his meeting speaking with the congressional black caucus. james, can the republicans actually do anything on poverty? >> well, i think ryan has a plan that's going to come out, hasn't come out yet. some other republicans, mike lee, marco rubio, have been talking a lot about poverty agenda as well as an agenda that's more directly focused on the middle class. do i think that's going to be the big republican theme? no. i think the big republican theme is the president's economic policies have failed, obama care is going to be revealed. the president's economic policies have failed. that's what they're going to run on. i would love to see them run on

a broader middle class agenda. i don't think it's going to happen for these midterms. >> stan, can republicans do anything on poverty? >> first of all, one, they're not going to use it in the midterm elections. the policy that they advance is that there ought to be more married households and that ought to be what we ought to be encouraging in this country. that's fine as long-term policy, but it's not going to be motivating for them. to be honest, they're making it harder for people who are unmarried, struggling and vulnerable. i think, by the way, the data is pretty clear that right now republicans for sure are more motivated and are motivated by their opposition to the president, obama care and those kinds of issues. but what our data shows is when voters hear an economic message which is populous, talks about the rich calling the shots, republicans are in charge, you still have tax breaks for the rich, not addressing the problems for the middle class.

>> is it the minimum wage? that's it? the u.s. faces these huge problems and their response is to raise the minimum wage? here is the big populous issue, the president could come out and say we need to break up the big banks. they caused the financial crisis, they've gotten bigger since the financial crisis, bigger since dodd-frank. let's break up big banks. is the president going to come out and do that? he's talked before about financial reform. >> there are big policy choices being debated. these are not just elections in washingt washington, these are elections in the state. why is the governor in pennsylvania in trouble? because of education cuts? why is the louisiana governor, north carolina governor in trouble? it's because of education cuts. education is a big issue, a motivating issue and part of why the policies you have in the middle class and what people are looking for. at the same time, the only thing republicans care about is tax cuts for the wealthy, protecting the wealthy --

>> james -- let christina jump in. she's trying to get in. >> you have all this, where it's exactly that issue, how do you get people to show up at the polls. that steve israel poll you talked about, 67 battleground districts for the house. we know the republicans are going to keep the house. they found they're dead tied with republicans on basically everything, do you prefer democrat, do you prefer republican? when you ask a question about economics, it's a massive lead. they're trying to apply it to the policies that already exist. they're trying to say the affordable care act saves you money here or looking at the hobby lobby decision that you talked about -- apply that to single women and how can you attract voters in that way. what you're seeing is more and more republicans talking about this. paul ryan hasn't put out his plan on poverty yet. look at the budget when they passed the house. they are trying to put out ideas. it's completely about talk and motivating people. minimum wage is the exact

example of this. >> austin, can i ask you about paul ryan's impending plan. his path to prosperity, we've seen versions one, two and three and i'm sure you know the contours of them. how serious could a paul ryan poverty plan be from your perspective? fr >> from my perspective, not all that serious. it's more of people on one side getting tired of being criticized for having no plan, so come up with something that covers a little bit, but on further examination blows holes in a bunch of the existing safety net. so i think that part will be relatively problematic. i think what stan says exactly right, if they can broaden the discussion, the democrats could broaden the discussion to be about education, the middle class, helping ordinary americans, that's the best shot that they have. it's the sixth year of administration. it's almost always a big negative for the incumbent in a

situation like that. if you can broaden the populous message to be really about trying to help people's economic interests, i think that's the best chance they have. >> i don't get the paul ryan fixation. marco rubio who is very likely to run for president. there's a reasonable shot he could be the republican nominee, he's come out for a wage sub c plan to raise wages for low income workers. it's not the democratic solution. that's a huge move forward on poverty issues. we could focus on that, too. mike lee has done the same thing. there are ideas out there other than just budget cutting. >> austin, have you heard anything about senator rubio's plan that james was just talking about? is that workable? >> i have heard some of it. when i think, boy, an environment like this, eric cantor voted out of office, marco rubio better be watchful that nobody in the republican party hears about his wage plan.

>> i think people know about it. >> clearly a lot to talk about here. more on the democrats and populism after this. stay with us. a complete multivitamin with 7 antioxidants to support cell health. age? who cares. legs, for crossing. feet...splashing. better things than the joint pain and swelling of moderate to severe rheumatoid arthritis.

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washington is rigged to work for those who can hire armies of lobbyists and armies of lawyers. >> that was massachusetts senator elizabeth warren talking to steve kornacki in may about how she sees our current political system. we've talking about the politics of populism. austin, does the popularity of the pick a tea book or elizabeth warren's recent memoir, does that warrant even more discussion about income inequality this. >> probably a little bit. senator warren is an old, old friend of mine from back in her professor days. i think what she said there, it's hard to dispute that.

if you start looking at policy, washington is rigged heavily in favor of those who can afford lobbyists and get laws changed in their favor. again, i don't know if that totally has direct bearing on the 2014 election just because republicans seem very motivated. >> isn't it extraordinarily weird, though, to be talking about economic populism as the winning issue when the first six months of this year the economy overall actually shrank? here we are, supposed to be the fifth year of the recovery, it shrank. isn't economic growth message more of a selling message? the polls i see, if you put economic inequality versus policies that boost economic growth, economic growth wins hands down, like four to one. should democrats be talking about policies that make the economy grow faster, not just produce jobs, but good paying jobs. >> she is absolutely right. it's politically effective and is motivating.

she is actually right on the mark on where people are angry and it is motivating for off-year elections and motivating in general. people do think the system is rigged. they think the middle class is struggling. with the start of the struggle of the middle class, that's the real power. you have to be in their shoes. the fact that it's rigged in favor of those who can buy lo y lobbyisti lobbyists, the data says you increase turnout when you emphasize those issues. >> here is something that i don't get. yes, this is a motivating factor, and when it really did motivate people to get out there and occupy wall street, it was a big deal. it did change the conversation. but occupy wall street fizzled out. it wasn't so motivating that the movement continued to the point where there was more than just elizabeth warren in the senate driving the message. so that's where i'm having a disconnect here on the

conversation about income inequality and populism and how successful it is in terms of getting people in congress who will then change the debate and change the laws and changes the policies that will help the majority of the american people. >> occupy wall street played a very important role in putting the top 1% on the map. i would say the president's speech in talking about inequality also played a big role in making inequality a center piece. but it does not get to the heart, the motivating heart of this which is a middle class that is struggling, very -- people are very conscious you can't replicate what happened to their parents in previous generations their jobs don't pay enough to live on. it's a central economic fact that people have. the fact that people with money who have taken advantage of them have used the political system and money to buy influence and rig it, to make this come out stronger for them s a powerful message in our polling. that's why candidates are running on it.

that's why bill deblasio got 75% of the vote. let's not forget. this is real and he's in a governing position to address those kind of issues. >> that's the problem. you campaign on this and voters start to have a certain expectation. we talk about president obama and a lot of those things. and then there's the reality of governing. you see -- the very first thing the president had to deal with was the bad economy and the economic stimulus plan. austin, you were right there at the table. there were economists that felt like that should have been larger and should have included more to help the middle class. the president could have done more in that sense. so voters are responding in that way as opposed to, these are the messages people are out there talking about. >> i somewhat agree with that. i also agree with jimmy, look, the greatest thing that can happen to the middle class is that we could get the growth rate back up to some sustained over 3% level. to discuss issues of populism, if you want to call it that, doesn't have to be at the expense of growth strategy.

i think we want a growth strategy that's inclusive. so i kind of think those could work together. >> i think that's actually the heart of the issue. i really do think this was the place for the president to play a much more educated role of what's happening in the country. the economy is being restructured. jobs do not pay what they did before. they pay 20% less than they did pre recession. it is made for lower income, service sector jobs replacing the jobs that came before that. we're dealing with three decade period of stagnant income. growth is not going to change the basics. that's what people understand. 3% growth, we ought to get it, get the full employment as much as possible. but long-term, we have not seen changes. in fact, they've restructured downward. that's where there needs to be education. this is a new economy, different kinds of jobs, different kind of politics which is corrupted by money. this is where there is power in this kind of approach.

>> we can't have this conversation about populism and bringing in elizabeth warren who people hope will run for president without talking about hillary clinton. people trying to put -- pit the two against each other. i want to talk about hillary clinton's wealth in particular. it's a big issue republicans are attacking her on. there are all the stories about her speaking fees and those of her family. even maureen dowd spends an entire column in "the new york times" today talking about this. assuming hillary clinton opts to run for president again, how will these stories harm her connection with working class, middle class voters? i mention maureen dowd's column today. she has this line, hillary doesn't see the disconnect between expressing grave concern about mounting student loan debt while scarfing six-figure sums from at least eight colleges and counting. >> i appreciate elizabeth warren's history and where she came from and the personal story

she brings, powerful message she's delivering. virtually everybody else we know in the whole progressive era through the presidents has come to this with great wealth, and i don't think people are going to be at all surprised that the clinton family has money at this point. the issue is do they understand -- >> it's okay to be woel think, but to think you're not wealthy and you're dead broke or not that well off, that's the disconnect. >> i think that's a mischaracterization of what the former secretary said. >> it's a tonal question. can you understand the plight of working people. president obama always talked about he and michelle obama were still paying off student loan debt. that's one of the reasons marco rubio mentioned it in his state of the union address. presidents are rich generally.

they tend to come from wealth, maybe some had humble beginnings, they leave with more wealth, lots of opportunities. people don't want a guy just like me or a girl just like me in the white house. they want to know that you understand them. that's one of the problems mitt romney had in 2012, because he continued to demonstrate that he didn't necessarily understand the plight of working people. >> austin, i'm going to ask you to talk about this hillary clinton thing whether you want to or not. do you think this question about a disconnect between her current circumstances and where she came from, is that going to be a problem for her if she decides to run for president? will people, as christina said, figure that because she's so wildly rich that they can't connect with her, that she doesn't understand them? >> i don't think it will be a problem if she kind of gets her line down of here is what i think about, we made money from

these speeches. i think it's totally common that the presidential candidates, including, i might add, obama when he was running, he was talking about paying off student loan debts some years before. he had a very successful book. everyone who runs for president is well above the median income in the united states. if she is comfortable with what her situation is and can convey that, i think it will be a non-issue. >> i agree with austin. >> he needs better coaching to speak populist. >> i want to thank stan greenberg, austan goolsbee and james pet cook kiss from the american enterprise institute. a surprising world leader who did something even more surprising this week. that's next. and startup ny companies will be investing hundreds of millions of dollars in jobs and infrastructure. thanks to startup ny, businesses can operate tax free for 10 years.

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(vo) you know that dream... where you're the hero? hey... you guys mind warming this fella up for me? i'm gonna go back down, i saw some recyclables. make it happen with verizon xlte. find a car service. we've doubled our 4g lte bandwidth in cities coast to coast. thanks! sure. we've got a spike in temperature. so save the day... don't worry, i got this... oh yeah, i see your spaceship's broken. with xlte on largest, most reliable network. get 50% off smartphones like the new lg g3. about a month ago i had a conversation with pope francis with a woman named francis kiss ling, the former president of clath licks for choice, a pro choice catholic organization.

she said something rather provocative. quote, the pope is nor like god every day she told me. he allows evil to exist around him. the evil she was referring to was the sex abuse scandal that has rocked the catholic church. well, this week pope francis finally addressed that evil in a very personal way for the very first time. he met with six abuse victims last monday and apologized in a homily during a mass before that meeting. quote, i ask for the grace to weep, to make reparations for her sons and daughters who portrayed their mission, who abused innocent persons. i begged her forgiveness for the sins of omission on the part of catholic leaders who did not respond adequately to reports of abuse. this is a big deal, even if you're not catholic. no pope has ever addressed the abuse of tens of thousands of children. that's the estimate in a recent u.n. report. tens of thousands of children. the new pope already has other

firsts under his belt. he washed the feet of prison inmates. he's shown more tolerance for gays and lesbians. he called for women to play a bigger role in the church. but this is the first time he's addressed one of the biggest scandals to hit the church in centuries. to help us discuss what it all means, we are joined by one of my colleagues at the-wash postion columnist and msnbc contributor e.j. dionne. also enthia butter from university of pennsylvania and the woman i just mentioned, francis kiss ling is also here, the president for health, ethics and social policy. e.j., i want to start with you, has the pope done enough, do you think, to address the issue of sexual abuse? >> no. i think that's exactly why he did what he did this week. as you know, i'm a huge fan of pope francis. i think he is in the process of changing the church in a fundamental way.

he is going back to a time of reform and renewal that we went through during the period of vatican two under pope john 23r. i think he made john 23r a saint. he made a statement at the beginning of the year that wu very unfortunate where he said no one has done more to deal with abuse, and yet the church is the only one that is being attacked, that was a very defensive statement. i think what he did last week that was very important, was not simply apologize. pope benedict also apologized. he said not just of priests but of bishops, and i quote, they will be held accountable. i think john allen wrote this weekend in "the boston globe" that this was a prelude to

action. i think what's bothered catholics of all political strifes is in many case it is hierarchy seemed more interested in institutional self protection than in protecting kids. if he takes steps towards real accountability here, that will be a very big deal and it will be in keeping with the rest of his papacy so far. >> fran circumstance why do you think it's taken the pope more than a year to address this? do you agree with e.s. thj. tha may be a pray collude to action. >> i hope it's a pray collude of action. it remains to be seen whether it will be. the establishing of commissions, we're past the establishing of commissions. we really need him to take some serious action right now. but i think it's taken this amount of time because, i'm a little sympathetic to the pope.

i'm both critical and sympathetic. i think it does take time for a leader to be able to move on so many issues. he has a lot of issues to move on. also, there's cronyism. the pope is a bishop. the people that need to be called out on this issue and need to be sanctioned are other bishops and cardinals. he may be invaluable, but he's not perfect. >> anthony, let me ask you this same question. why do you think it's taken so long? do you think what he's said is a prelude to action an perhaps he's taken so long because it takes time. >> it takes time because the church is a messed up corporation. we're not talking about an organization that is very clear, if you had to do a flow chart of everybody in the vatican, you'd lose your mind, trying to think about everybody who is there. number two, finding out the depth of the issue. i think today just came out.

he just did an interview in la republica that said two in 12 catholic priests are pedophiles. that's about 8,000. that's a big number if we stop to think about that. we're talking about legal action in every country on the globe. you also have these legal ramifications. this is a very slow-moving train. you're talking about 2,000 years worth of a church that moves very slowly and moves on its own time. yes, it's a problem. >> e.j., after one year of pope francis at the vatican, 85% of catholics in the u.s. have a favorable view of the pope. that's 11 percentage points higher than pope benedict had just before he quit. how can pope francis use his popularity for the good of the catholic church? >> i think in so many ways, in most ways he already has. the first and most basic is he's preaching a god of love and mercy. i think if you are trying to

persuade a world which in large parts is becoming more secular, to think about god, let alone believe in god again, i think you have to have a plausible and attractive account of who god is, why people should be interested in the question at all. i think he's made that very clear. indeed, he's gone out of his way to talk about dialogue with flon believers, not just other kinds of christians. i think at his core spiritual mission, he's done that. the other thing he's done is signaled a really radical change in priorities. yes, he is a pro life, anti-abortion pope. no, the church is not going to endorse gay marriage any time soon. he has said, wait a minute, these issues are not the only issues or indeed necessarily the central issues the search should be talking about. he has spoken so powerfully about economic injustice. he is in many ways, most ways, to the left of most american democrats on the issue of how we

need to reform capitalism and is putting the poor back in the center of the story, i can't think of anything more christian than that? >> we'll be right back with more on the advocacy of pope francis after this. like cheerios can help lower cholesterol. thank you! i make a lot of purchases foand i get ass. lot in return with ink plus from chase. like 50,000 bonus points when i spent $5,000 in the first 3 months after i opened my account. and i earn 5 times the rewards on internet, phone services and at office supply stores. with ink plus i can choose how to redeem my points. travel, gift cards, even cash back. and my rewards points won't expire. so you can make owning a business even more rewarding. ink from chase. so you can.

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welcome back. we've been talking about the papacy of pope francis. an thea, you said in the last segment the vatican is a messed up corporation. francis, that leads me to a question i was going to ask you, something you wrote in an e-mail, i included it in the piece i wrote. the church has never stopped being a middle ages monarchy flashing its bring in the presence of abject poverty. when francis took over, i had and still have a lot of hope for some important changes. the question is what are some of those important changes maybe to fix this messed up corporation? >> i think building on what e.j. said about the pope's emphasis on the economy. i think the economy of the church is something that really

needs to change, not just the corruption, and there's nor mouse financial corruption and abuse of power in the church around money. money is one of the symbols of power. i guess when you don't have sex, you get to money. so what do you have? at any rate, i think dealing with the excessive behavior of the institutional church. the building of cathedrals in central america for tens of millions of dollars while people are starving. the building of bathrooms -- >> that mansion in germany that the bishop built? >> detroit, wherever, building a vacation residence for yourself. i think one of the joys of this pope is he is a role model for a similar life, and i think that the church does need to return to a simple life. the simple life also includes -- it's been said abuse of power leads to ultimate corruption. the abuse of power is absolute.

i think money and power and absolute corruption go together. >> anthea, what are some of the changes you think could fix the messed up corporation? >> one thing he needs to do is think about streamlining things. what you see now dealing with the vatican is one thing. the next thing is the issue of women. he's like i've accepted everything the previous pop said and archbishop muller said who is cardinal. if he doesn't figure out how to deal with the women in his church, he won't have a church. period, end of story. i don't even mean just orlando nation. i think appointing women to positions in abuse cases and other things. i'll have to see more action. i think he also has to think about being more careful about what he speaks. what i mean by that is i don't think he's ever going to change on lgbt issues. the church is not going to

change. but when he makes comments like who am i to judge, that gives people a lot of hope. he has to realize that everyone is hanging on every word he says. sometimes he can be very off the cuff. but i think off the cuffness takes away from the things i think are really important that he's saying about the economy and other kinds of issues. and finally abuse, of course. they have to clean this up. >> e.j., what are some of the changes you would like to see pope francis make to the vatican? >> first of all, i think the off the cuffness is actually a very conscious thing he's doing for precisely the bureaucratic reasons our colleague just referred to, that he has been able to make changes without going through any bureaucracy by doing all these newspaper interviews, by saying all these things. i would like to see more steps taken to give women an important role in the church. there are a lot of things the church can do to empower women without changing a thing about

ordnation. i don't expect him to let women be ordained. i think he's gone straight at the issue of the church looking too rich and poirful. the first words out of his mouth or among first were i want a poor church for the poor. that was very important. he's attacked a psychology of princes in the church. he's attacked a spirit of careerism. i think he's fighting a lot of internal battles right now to change the church. we're seeing the fruits of it in the reform of the vatican bank. we're seeing the fruits of it in his reform of the process of naming bishops. i think we'll see more like that. >> i'm not catholic, but the words coming out of pope francis's mouth make me pay attention. >> my thanks to e.j. dionne, francis kissling with the center of health, ethics and social policy and anthea butler from the university of pennsylvania.

coming up next, we'll look at what happens when super secret spies venture into the world of social media. ♪ during the cadillac summer's best event, lease this 2014 ats for around $299 a month and make this the summer of style. ♪ if your denture moves, it can irritate your gums. try fixodent plus gum care. it helps stop denture movement and prevents gum irritation. fixodent. and forget it.

america's foreign agents and analyst haves a new weapon in their arsenal, a twitter account. it's not at all what you might expect. they began by sending out we can neither confirm nor deny this is our first tweet. they more recently told the world, no, we don't know where tupac is, #twitterversary n. the real world, the cia has a sense of mum more. in just a month the agency has amassed more than 700 followers, including me. but to what end? when we asked the cia about what the intended purpose of the account s they promptly provided us with a polite long explanation which you can read on full. they told us the humor is a way

to keep up with the rest of the twitter verse. they further say, social media is a useful tool to dispel myths about who we are and what we do. if we don't tell our story, others will and often they'll get it wrong. maybe they tweet to help them move past some bad press. candle doesn't seem to have hurth the agency's standing, at least with the american people. get this, according to polling, while congress has an approval rating of 11%, the cia is at 52%, that's a majority. in line with a number of people who approve of dogs. the cia is as popular as puppies. does the cia really need this twitter image campaign? i for one am glad to have it. what are they out to accomplish with their social media strategy? back at the table christina bellantoni, justin snow, reporter and editor with metro weekly and chris gidner from

buzz feed. you're a prolific writer of tweets. what's your perception and what do you think they're trying to accomplish? >> they're trying to have fun. they're definitely the obama administration has been on top of social media, and this is another area where they think they can jump in and have fun and they've responded like we've been watching the account respond to people. they're trying to have some fun with it. >> i was so excited about this story, particularly the polling that cia at 52% approval rating that i misstated how many twitter followers the cia actually has. it's not 700. it's 700,000 followers that they have. christina, i'll ask you the same question. >> i went and looked at the twitter feed last night. they've been putting out informational videos. there's one explaining a robotic

catfish that's interesting. also one talking about how all this technology that the cia lent itself to, the battery in traditional cell phones actually came out of cia practices. it's a public information campaign. they are telling their own story the way they want. in that video, did you know there are hair stylists that work at the cia? that's a story i want to assign to a reporter. you've got to do disguises. how fun would that be to show up every day and get to be like i am a cia hair stylist. >> you wouldn't be able to say it bays you work at the cia. >> these create warm feelings about an organization that is generally viewed as antiseptic and untouchable. chris and i started as friends on twitter. this is an example of it right here. >> are you as surprised as i am that more people have a favorable -- the majority of the american people have a favorable view of the cia? >> i'm wondering who the 50% who doesn't like dogs is.

it's interesting, i suppose the cia isn't in the news very often whereas we know who congress ke faces are. perhaps they're not the most likeable faces in the world. but with the cia and they're just sort of this -- this body that's out is there. and i think for a lot of people, this is their first actual real interaction with the cia. i can't say i've ever interacted with them in a way like twitter -- >> i was going to say, i don't want to interact with the cia. >> you might have, you just don't know. >> the tupac thing was interesting because what they were doing was answering the top five or top ten questions they had been asked since joining twitter. so people have asked that. they have asked, do you know my twitter password? so, it's inte enter active. they're responding to the citizenry. >> what i find fascinating, we have an organization whose job it is to keep secrets. the job of a cia spokesperson is

probably the cushiest job ever because you say, no answer. >> it's not too different from other administrations. >> yes. but when more serious stories come out, you know, what's happening with chancellor angela merkel in germany or the senate torture report due to come out in a couple weeks, most people use twitter accounts to announce things, to release reports and documents. are we going to see that happen at the cia? >> it will be interesting to see how they use the account, whether they do use it to actuallien gauge. actually engage. i've been dealing with the labor department on some issues, nondiscrimination measures, and they tweet from their account regularly. but they're not very responsive to anything. so, it will be interesting to see -- to see what they do moving forward. >> i have a feeling they've got some, like, 22-year-old person who's just having a ball on the

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i want to find out what my guests think we should know. christina? >> "the washington post" has a terrific story highlighting problems as d.c. emergency shelter, where a young girl basically went missing and is dead. they write about the conditions of this shelter. it's really, really devastating report. it just highlights how heartbreaking this is. it's on the front page of the post today. >> front page of "the washington post," my paper. justin? >> like we talked about earlier, there is supposed to be an executive order coming from the white house to prohibit federal contractors from lbgt workplace discrimination. who knows if it will come this week but it's been a mow, so it could come this week or the week after that or the week after that. >> right. >> chris? >> yeah. we are -- we found out this week that we're going to be heading back to the supreme court with marriage equality soon enough.

and so be on the lookout for the state of utah to file the first supreme court petition asking the justices to hear a marriage equality case in the coming year. >> it could be the first case to come to the supreme court isn't going to be the virginia case. it's going to be -- >> no. we're still waiting on -- that's another think you should wait on whether the fourth circuit court of appeals in virginia rules on that case. >> you should know that i've had two friends sitting behind the camera who have kept me warm and comfortable and secure during this last hour. but anyway, i want to thank all of my guests today. steve will be back in the chair next weekend. his guests will include former congressman barney frank and his sister ann lewis in a special family edition of "up against the clock." will you not want to miss that. first, melissa harris perry is up next. she'll be talking about the journey of extraordinary

testimony to paul ryan's budget committee. stick around. nerd land is next. thank you for getting up and thanks to the "up with steve wi steve" team for having me sit in this chair. ging my symptoms, except that managing my symptoms was all i was doing. ♪ when i finally told my doctor, he said my crohn's was not under control. ♪ he said humira is for adults like me who have tried other medications but still experience the symptoms of moderate to severe crohn's disease. and that in clinical studies, the majority of patients on humira saw significant symptom relief. and many achieved remission. [ female announcer ] humira can lower your ability to fight infections, including tuberculosis. serious, sometimes fatal infections and cancers, including lymphoma, have happened; as have blood, liver, and nervous system problems, serious allergic reactions,

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