are following is that a malaysian airline carrying nearly 300 people, that would include passengers and crew, has crashed in ukraine near the russian border. according to the malaysian ministry of transport, the last contact, the last information they had regarding the airliner was over ukraine. it was to -- left amsterdam on its way to kuala lumpur. there's at least one ukrainian official, adviser, saying this aircraft was shot duown. we are getting more information, but i'm going to turn over the coverage, this breaking news coverage to my colleague andrea mitchell. >> thank you, tamron hall. as we continue covering this breaking news on msnbc, ukrainian advisers saying that the missing malaysian plane was shot down. something from russia. the malaysian airliner was flying from amsterdam to kuala

lumpur. standing by in moscow is jim maceda. we know there have been a series of incidents, including a ukrainian fighter jet that it says was shot down last night. a series of incidents in the last couple of days. this plain was n this plane was not flying at high altitude. had taken off from amsterdam. tell us what if anything, you're hearing from russian officials. >> i'm not yet in russia. i'm still in london. but, obviously, we're monitoring this very, very carefully. the -- it was the interfax news agency out of kiev, and it's important the initial -- to know that the initial information was coming exclusively from the ukrainian side. it said that the plane was shot down but it was given no further detail except the plane was flying at 10,000 feets. not low. 33,000 feet, which would require a very sophisticated misil sile

take it out when it was hit. the russian air space was -- i should say it was flying through ukrainian air space. it was supposed to hit russian air space at a specific time. that alerted malaysian air to the fact that there was something wrong when it didn't hit at that specific time. i believe it was 17:25 and instead crashed inside of ukraine. now we know, of course, this is a very volatile part of ukraine. there's been cross-border violence between ukrainian armed forces and those pro-russian rebels going back to april. it calmed down a little bit. there was a mini cease-fire, a half a cease-fire. it kind of fell off the radar screen in terms of news because of developments in the middle east. but it has been on the rise again of late, certainly within the last three or four days. there have been three reported incidents of ukrainian military

planes, a couple of jet fighters being allegedly brought down by russian missiles which is something the russian authorities have categorically denied. there's been no reaction from russia so far on this latest incident. but again, according to the ukrainian ministry, interior minnistry, that plane was brought down by a buk ground to air missile, and that the -- and the previous three incidents this week, there has been minimal loss of life. two ukrainian jet fighters went down with their pilots who jettis jettisoned. only two pilots out of those three incidents died. others either were saved or were captured. but this time around we're talking about 295 passengers and crew. so this could really be a game-changer in terms of the course of this war, if in fact, this is what happened. and it wasn't a mechanical

problem or a pilot problem. it is still, andrea, too early to say. >> thank you so much. and thanks for breaking that, jim maceda in london. joining us on capitol hill is john mccain, a member of the foreign relations committees. a former fighter pilot himself. obviously, senator, we do not know yet what happened here. but let's talk about the context. we have seen a series of air incidents in the last couple of days where the officials in kiev have claimed that separatists or russian sources have shot down most recently a fighter jet last night. you know the area. you know the situation. the president only yesterday slapped new and tougher sanctions against russia. and we were waiting for the europeans to follow suit. what is the overall environment right now and the risks here as we try to discern what happened, what brought down this malaysian airliner? >> as you say, andrea, to lead

to conclusions could be very embarrassing and really inappropriate until we have more information. but there have been, as you mentioned, previous incidents of shoot down of ukrainian aircraft. this was an airliner headed towards russian air space. and it has the earmarks, and i'm not concluding, but it has the earmarks of a mistaken identification of an aircraft that they may have believed was ukrainian. if that's true, this is a horrible -- if it's true, this is a horrible tragedy event which was certainly unanticipated by anybody, no matter who they are. and there will be incredible repercussions if this is the case. exactly what those will be will have to be determined by how we find out who was responsible. it has the earmarks of a tragic

mistake made by someone who had the capability to shoot down an aircraft and we know at least from the last few -- couple weeks that that could be russian or separatist russian capability. if that's true, this is really, really something that commands our attention to bring this kind of thing to a halt in ukraine. >> we're talking about 295 passengers. 15 crew members. a 777. boeing has acknowledged that the plane has been lost on radar. we see the video already. this is somewhere near donetsk. we see the video of the smoke coming from that field. senator, as you say, we do not know what happened and whether this was an accident, whether this was pilot error, some sort of misidentification, we don't even know what side if this airliner was tragically shot down. we do know, though, tensions

have been rising there and that the world has been preoccupied with the middle east perhaps but the white house very focussed in the last 24, 48 hours with the treasury department sanctions against russia. have we been doing enough in confronting vladimir putin for what has happened as the cease-fire with poroshenko failed? and as we know that tanks and other heavy artillery were moving across the border into eastern ukraine. >> all i can say is that the reaction of our european community and the united states has been insulting in how small and how little help we have given. i mean, they have been begging us for defensive weaponry. we have not given to them. we decided to send them mres. i'm not making this story up. and rather than flying them in with an american aircraft, they leased trucks in germany to

truck the mres in. they've refused to give them the weaponry they've been begging for. the sanctions have been minuscule. these latest enacted by the obama administration, i think, are helpful, but if you ask ukrainian government that's struggling, they would say they need weapons for which to defend themselves. well, vladimir putin just moved 10,000 troops back to the border again and we have seen a step up in separatist activities. so i think we have been so unhelpful to the ukrainians that it has affected their morale. >> i know this is not the cold war. this is a different government in russia. we don't even know whether this plane was shot down or, if so, who was responsible and if it was a case of mistaken identity. still, the tragic loss of life. but we do remember what the international reaction was when

the korean airliner 007 was shot down over soviet -- then soviet territory back in 1983. the whole world was up in arms, and it became a cause celebre at the united states. >> repercussions are inic inicalcuably huge. either russian or separatist and they are really one in the same have already shot down several aircraft of the ukrainians. one was carrying a number of passengers, as you might recall, a few weeks ago that a number of ukrainian soldiers were on board. so this is part of a pattern. but again, i am not concluding yet. we don't want to make the mistake of reaching conclusions. we'll know within the next few hours. but if it is the result of either separatist or russian actions mistakingly believing that this was a ukrainian war

plane, i think there's going to be hell to pay, and there should be. >> senator john mccain, thank you for joining us in this emergency as we continue the breaking news. a malaysian airliner tlig from amster doom kuala lumpur, malaysia, went down near donetsk, we believe in ukraine. over, cra ukrainian territory. it's still unknown whether it was pilot error, some kind of mechanical error or some sort of other action. and if so, from which side. michael mcfaul joining me, former ambassador to russia. you know all of the tensions. michael mcfaul, stanford professor as well richard engel joining me. our chief foreign correspondent who is right now joining us from the middle east where he's been covering gaza and the continuing struggles with israel. there is still, i assume, a temporary cease-fire, the humanitarian cease-fire and negotiations internationally for a longer cease-fire.

but you know eastern ukraine and the situation in ukraine and the kiev government's failure to continue a cease-fire with the separatists. this has been escalating over recent weeks. >> first of all, on the situation here in gaza, since it's happening right behind me there is no cease-fire under way right now. in fact, we've been seeing rockets flying from the city. we've been watching some of the smoke trails leaving gaza city heading toward israel. we've also heard several incoming strikes and seen clouds of black smoke coming from some of the surrounding areas around gaza city. there is talk about putting in a lasting cease-fire. conflicting reports, however, about how real that is. some of these reports are quite emphatic saying there is going to be a deal. it's going to start tomorrow. but when we talk to officials both on the israeli and palestinian side, we get official denials that there has been that much progress. so on this front, it's unclear.

but an amazing accusation coming out of the ukrainian government today. this adviser to the interior minister saying that a passenger plane flying over ukraine, flying over eastern ukraine heading toward russian air space was shot down by a soviet system, a buk rocket and that about 300 people were killed in that crash when the plane came down near donetsk. hard to know if this was real but there is an accusation out there. and if this really were the -- or this really was the action of russian separatists, it would, well, potentially change the conflict dramatically. would give the ukrainian government an enormous amount of credibility to say it's fighting a terrorist movement, it is fighting a russian-backed movement. but again, too early to know the facts. but if a plane really were shot down by an antiaircraft system, it wouldn't take long for

investigators to figure that one out. >> that would be only a matter of hours in terms of what the international community can find. we know that this accusation so far is only from the kiev government, and they are in the continuing conflict with separatists backed by russia. so it's very, very important that we not jump to conclusions. it would fit their political and foreign policy objectives. that said, right now the europeans have been meeting in brussels trying to decide whether to join other sanctions. they have done fewer sanctions, of course, than the united states. the treasury department here and the president announcing sanctions only last night against two major russian banks and two major energy companies. basically barring them from the u.s. capital markets for any mid and long-term investments, as well as sanctions against other individuals and against russian defense firms. so this is the toughest actions that the u.s. has -- >> i think there had been --

>> yeah, go ahead, richard. >> i'm sorry. i was talking over you with a bit of a delay from gaza. i think there had been a hope creeping in among policymakers in washington and some academics that this crisis in ukraine would more or less go away and stay at a very low level after the russians took over crimea and then pulled back tens of thousands of troops from their border. i think people grew complacent. they stopped focusing on ukraine. people i've been speaking to, however, and i look forward to hearing from ambass dor mcfaul, are convinced that vladimir putin and russia have not forgotten about ukraine. they have no intention of gichg their claims to the east and trying to do everything they can to destable the government in kiev. and some analysts and officials i've been speaking to just over the last few days were convinced that this situation would escalate dramatically over the next few weeks and months.

now this alleged incident, what the ukrainian government is calling a shootdown, could change that calculation quite significantly. >> thank you so much. >> by the way, here, we just heard another -- you can see a black smoke mushroom cloud. >> i can see it. >> i think you can see it from the camera rising up behind me. the cease-fire you mentioned, it's certainly not in place yet. >> and the humanitarian cease-fire certainly not holding beyond the few hours that it did, if at all, for getting supplies and food in. thank you so much, richard, posted in gaza. >> it did last for a few hours and people were out on the streets buying, going to banks for the last ten days. the markets here have been empty. people haven't been able to go outside. and check on their homes. check on their farms. a lot of gazans are living in shelters. right now you look on the streets. there is nobody outside. >> and thanks for that, richard.

that was at the request of the u.n. adviser. the representative there for the europeans and the u.n. and the u.s. who has been trying to negotiate. there also was word from the u.n. today that they did find some rockets hidden in a school, in a u.n. school in a protest from the u.n. against the hamas authorities for that. as we continue to cover crises on a number of fronts. but the continuing breaking story now is the malaysian airliner. the flight from amsterdam to kuala lumpur, malaysia that went down near donetsk in eastern ukraine. you can see the smoke from that field. we believe that all on board, and that was 295 people, that includes 280 passengers and 15 crew members, all believed to have been killed. and we don't know the cause of that crash, but there is a claim at least from kiev that it was at least a soviet era buk

missile against that airliner either from russian territory or russian-backed separatists. that again is not confirmed. and it could have been accidental as well. jim miklaszewski, our pentagon correspondent joining me from the pentagon. mik, what do we know about this terrible crash and what could have caused it? >> okay. and they still don't know it's a shoot-down, right? >> jim miklaszewski, i know you're check with your sources and are trying to find out what the american military officials know. what can you tell us right now about what they know? >> that's absolutely right. for several months now, the u.s. has had surveillance assets trained on this area as they watch the build-up, the drawdown and the rebuild-up of russian forces there on the border. so in short order, one could

assume that the u.s. would be able to determine if, in fact, there was a missile fired at this malaysian airliner. and if, in fact, that's what brought it down and where it came from. at this point, they don't know. and just -- it could be, you know, the analysis. sometimes that takes a long time. it's impossible to say precisely. but it shouldn't be very long, if, in fact, they can narrow down the time frame which, of course, they have when this plane went down, and go to the surveillance data that they have, which may or may not be able to indicate if the missile was fired and where it came from. just minutes ago, we were told by senior dod officials that it's not even clear yet that the plane was shot down. they are pursuing that as a likely option, but they are not sure. and again, a reminder, u.s. officials here report that there's no indication so far that separatists who crossed the border or have been working

inside ukraine with the russians even possess those kinds of surface to air missiles. they do know that the ukrainian military also possesses thee buk surface to air missiles that can take down an airliner. and the russian military on the other side of the border, not clear their position right there on the border, but they also would have that capability. a lot of unanswered questions. a lot of speculation. but the one claim made by the ukrainians that the separatists could have shot it down doesn't appear likely at least for the moment. but again, was it the ukrainian military responding to what they thought was a threat from russia? could be. maybe not likely. but was it the russian military responding what they thought was a threat from ukraine. all questions that remain to be answered. and people are digging hard to try to figure it out here at the pentagon. >> and our thanks to jim miklaszewski.

joining me now, bob windrum, nbc counterterrorism producer, in new york. what do we know about what the russians had and what the ukrainian separatists may have had at their availability? >> well, certainly as mik said, they have the buk missiles in russia. also the ukraine has buks. these are, you know, cold war-era missiles capable of taking down strategic bombers. essentially what you have here is a missile that is built for one thing, taking down strategic bombers, but it's certainly capable of taking down something at that altitude. there has been, over the last couple of days, some very interesting developments. u.s. intelligence has been noting an increase in very sophisticated special operations forces crossing the border. a couple of days ago, the ukrainians posted on youtube what they claim to be a video of

an s-400 antiaircraft system. one of the most sophisticated systems crossing from russia into ukraine. and also within this last few days, there has been increasing numbers of air engagements that the donetsk-based separatists have been firing at ukrainian su-35 fighter bombers, transport plane. so the tensions have been increasing over the last several days here. >> bob windrem, thank you so much. joining me by phone is john cox, aviation expert for nbc and msnbc. john, what do we know about this plane, the 777, and whether this could have been a crash at 33,000 feet. it had taken off in amsterdam and was headed over eastern ukrai ukraine. >> the boeing 777 200 has enjoyed a remarkably -- safety.

so the likelihood of it being an airplane issue is relatively low, but until we get confirm air ation, i think we need to keep our minds open to all possibilities. >> just from the video we're seeing, john. it's a clear day. there doesn't seem to be enormous weather issues, although you can't tell whether there's wind shear or some other event. this had reached altitude of 33,000 feet. >> understanding i have is it was flying at 10,000 meters, which is approximately 33,000 feet, which would be normal for a cruise altitude for a boeing 777 between those two cities. so it would be something over five miles up and would, obviously, be clear to be a commercial transport and not a threat or a military aircraft. >> and at that altitude, and with that passenger load, would that be fully loaded with fuel

for the flight, i assume, a nonstop to kuala lumpur? >> it would be heavily loaded as far as the boeing 777 is a very versatile airplane. it can be a very long distance airplane. whether they would have had to have put every pound of fuel on the airplane possible, i think we'll have to wait until the paperwork comes out for that. but it was a heavily loaded airplane. >> 295 people, 15 crew, 280 passengers is that's a typical flight load? >> i think it would be. i don't know the seating configuration for the malaysian airplane but that would be a fairly typical boeing 777 passenger and crew load. >> okay. john cox, with this kind of event, if it were a missile, there wouldn't have been any warning, would there have been, to the passengers and crew? >> probably not. in the previous two incidents

that i know of where a commercial airliner was shot down there really wasn't any warning provided. and there is no electronics in the airplane to make the pilots aware of it. so i would not have expected any warning. >> tell me about the buk, if you know anything about that soviet-era missile system. >> i do not. i tried to look it up on the internet, and just barely got a little bit of information. i'm not -- i don't have any expertise with it. i'm sorry. >> no, understandable. it's probably quite an old system. boeing has issued a statement out of seattle, out of boeing headquarters. our thoughts and prayers are with those on board the malaysia airlines airplane lost over ukrainian air space as well as their family and loved ones. boeing stands ready to provide whatever assistance is requested by authorities. and we know, of course, that the only source for this having been a shootdown, not confirmed by anyone in the white house, not

confirmed by the state department or the pentagon, is a claim by kiev, by ukrainian officials that this was shot down by either a separatist backed by russia or a russian system from russia proper. possibly a case of mistaken identity. no confirmation of that. this could have been pilot error. could have been mechanical error. all we know is a plane is down. we don't know of any survivors. 295 people on board from amsterdam to kuala lumpur. john cox, how many pilots would have been on board this kind of plane? >> there probably were three and possibly four but at least three for the length of that flight. so there would have been two operating pilots and then one or possibly two that were on a duty break. >> okay, john cox, as we continue here, we are reporting on this crisis in ukraine.

this is a malaysian airliner from amsterdam to kuala lumpur which went down over eastern ukraine. 295 people on board. 280 passengers. 15 crew members. this as the crisis with ukraine has been heating up. there have been a number of incidents between ukraine and the separatists as an attempted cease-fire accepted by ukrainian officials, by kiev, failed. and there have been a number of incidents. john cox, the fighter plane that was allegedly shot down only last night, according to ukrainian officials. there have been a number of air incidents. it seems as though things have been on a hair trigger. >> i understand that the appropriate cautions had been provided to all the airlines who

operated the area with extreme caution but the air space was not closed. so this aircraft would have been flying the route that it was supposed to be on at the altitude it was supposed to be at. it would have been very obvious that it was not a threat to anyone on the ground. >> what kind of profile would that airliner have had on anti-aircraft radar or other equipment that the russians would have had, let's say? how would they have identified this airliner before an incident? >> all commercial airliners, in fact, all aircraft, commercial aircraft, display a four-digit code on a radar. and so that information is available to air traffic control and civilian frequency radar. as far as the military and what it could see or not, i think it would depend on the age and sophistication of the system. but the fact that it was flying

on a known route would indicate that it's a commercial airplane doing what it was supposed to do. >> what is the normal way of identifying itself and having a communication, let's say, with russian authorities? >> the first and foremost would be the four-digit code that is being broadcast by the transponder. in addition, the pilots will talk to air traffic control prior to entering a country's air space and to receive formal permission to enter. that's granted, contingent on the route filed with the air traffic controllers and they have radio communication. if there's any ambiguity about what's going on. >> okay. john cox, an aviation expert for nbc and msnbc. thank you so much. i know you'll continue to stand by check with your resources as well. jane harman, head of the wilson

center and former member of the house intelligence committee and also house homeland security ranking member joins me now from the wilson center. jane, what we can see now is just horribly tragic. an airplane down. we don't know the cause. we know it's down near donetsk after a series of incidents in the last couple of days. what does the united states do and how do we find out what has happened here? >> let me commend you on your, as usual, careful reporting. you've had a series of people on the show who were sketch iing this. we don't know how all the pieces fit yet and we shouldn't jump to conclusions. so congratulations to you. that's why your viewers, like me, watch this show regularly. what should the united states do? be careful is the answer.

no quick rush to judgment. let's remember, 100 years ago, the arch duke ferdinand was assassinated n that led to world war i which looking back was based on a miscalculation. clearly this is a tragedy. it seemed to me it wasn't pilot error. and it was a deliberate intrusion by a bad actor. who was that bad actor? i don't know. let me sketch a couple of things that are very disconcerting. one, isis is watching. this is how you take down an airliner. this is a very bad lesson for a terror group increasing its real estate in the middle east. number two, old weapons work. number three, actually this is a better lesson. our sanctions against russia could not have come at a better time. our increased sanctions. i'm told by the experts at the wilson center that while they're not whole sectoral sanctions,

they are targeted very carefully to have a huge impact on russia's economy which at the moment is very weak. so russia better be thinking about how it's going to be part of the team that solves this problem. not makes it worse. and number four, i think we now have a claim if we are careful about it, to put back a world coalition which seems kind of shattered right now. this is the kind of problem that could happen in any country. how ironic it's malaysia airlines again. we've never found the other airliner. but if we are adroit, this is an opening for the united states to assert the kind of leadership the world really wants. >> jane harman, at this point, what should our posture toward russia be? i want to point out that in kiev, poroshenko, the leader of ukraine, has not claimed that this was shot duown. he's being very cautious. he's calling for an

investigation. >> exactly. >> we should all follow his cautions as well. but at this point, there has been very little response from russia to the sanctions other than medvedev today saying that this means ramping up russian defense. vladimir putin does not seem to be at all bothered by the economic actions taken by the united states. >> i don't know, andrea. my response is, i think poroshenko should reach for putin right now and get him on the phone. i don't think this has to be a public conversation and talk to him about what he knows and enlist his help. let's assume innocence until proven guilty. no question the weapons, at least as described on your show, the buks are russian-made weapons, or possibly it could have been a man pad, although this seems a little too sophisticated. i think poroshenko, who is an

impressive leader. i met him the day before he was elected. i was part of the election observing committee. he's the right guy to get him on the foin first and see what happens. i don't know what -- putin is obviously, i would guess, impacted -- well, he is impacted heavily by this new round of economic sanctions against parts of the banking and energy sectors in his country that we have just levied with -- and europe will support in substantial part. so i'm not sure the first call should come from obama, but it should come from poroshenko. this plane went down in ukraine air space. and from all the people you've had on your show, was not identified as a war plane. this was a civilian airliner doing what it was supposed to do. so this was probably a deliberate act by somebody using russian-made weapons. old russian-made weapons. not necessarily at putin's request. so that would be my first thing.

call from poroshenko to putin. >> and what about angela merkel and the europeans? because the europeans have been reluctant to ramp up as aggressively as the u.s. has. they are more directly affected economically by russia. but these are not sectoral sanctions as you correctly and your experts point out. these are pretty well targeted. when we spoke to, they said they were trying to avoid spillover on american interests and on european interests. at this point, an airliner coming down, if this is an act of war, an act of terror, this is something that has to rally the european union as well. >> i totally agree. that's why i said this is a rare moment in a kind of pretty dismal monthly long period where u.s. leadership, if adroit, could re-create this global coalition that wants our

leadership. i think that europe from indications here will go along with these carefully targeted sanctions. for example, we're not preventing rosneft from access to the u.s. baunking system for short-term loans. this is what i'm told. >> that's correct. >> but hints at what sectoral sanctions could look at. and europe will support some of this anyway with respect to the ebrd, the european bank for reconstruction and development. and the european investment bank. and if europe goes there and apparently we think it's likely that europe will go there with respect to its own sanctions, this will reinforce a strong message to putin. again, we don't know what putin's role was in this horror a few hours ago in ukraine. but the fact that we are imposing greater for the mischief that they are imposing

should, it seems to me, help us get to a better place with russia and with europe. >> and before i let you go, jane harman, you were one of the election observers. what is poroshenko's hold right now? he is facing a major tragedy whether this was a shootdown or not. he has a real crisis on his hands as a new leader. what is his political grasp and the government's grasp with the divisions that still exist and the loyalties to russia? and the misinformation and disinformation that was so notorious before and during the election? >> this is why he's paid the big bucks. he was elected by a substantial majority of the ukrainian people on the first ballot. it's true that only about 87% of the country could vote because of the fact that a couple of

cities in east ukraine were places where it was too dangerous to vote at the time. but nonetheless, he has a broad mandate. his early moves have been adroit, including embracing help from the european union. but he's also reached out for russia and he pledged to appoint a broadly representative government. he's moving on that. the trouble has been, again, the trouble, the problems in eastern ukraine. but i -- based on meeting him and learning what i can about him, he's the right leader for a very difficult time in ukraine. ukraine has made, you know, this is ukraine's third chance since the wall came down. the first leadership in the '9'90 '9'90s was poor. the second round after the orange revolution was totally corrupt. we were very sad. y yushenko, i remember meeting with him. and poroshenko couldn't be more

seriously tested, but i think with the fact that these targeted u.s. sanctions have finally arrived, that europe will support some of this and that with careful reporting like yours, andrea, we will get to the right answer about who did this. i think that this could be a turning point in the right direction for poroshenko, sad as this event is. and, oh, by the way, maybe a turning point in the right direction for the u.s. as well as we try to put together the right coalitions to get to the right answer with iran, to try to stem the violence with gaza and israel, et cetera. >> jane harm an, thank you for your expertise. a tragic way to have this lesson, if it indeed is. >> joining me is tom costello. nbc's aviation correspondent. what do we know about this malaysian plane and whether there could have been some mechanical or pilot error? >> we do -- we have no reason to believe that and we have no information to that effect. pardon me if i'm missing some of

what you've already been reporting. i've been on the network for a special report. this was malaysia airlines flight 17 headed from amsterdam to kuala lumpur. 295 passengers and crew members on board. and according to the ukrainians, the plane went down somewhere near the russian border. if we have the interactive application up, i would show you this plane appears to have come in from amsterdam on a trajectory towards kuala lumpur when it went down on the ukrainian/russian border somewhere right about there. right about 20 miles or so short of the russian border. and we are now getting conflicting information. the ukrainians are blaming separatists for shooting down this plane. separatists are blaming the ukrainian military for shooting down this plane. much of our information has been coming from the ukrainians and interfax news agency out of russia. but it is confirmed by multiple sources, including reuters reporters who are on the ground

that a plane has gone down there. by one account, we had early on, the ukrainians were suggesting that this was a buk anti-aircraft missile defense system that brought the plane down. buk. and those were commonly used in the soviet union. keeping in mind that, of course, ukraine was part of the former soviet union with russia. we have no -- this is not a shoulder-fired missile. if it is a buk missile, this is one of those big type of missile systems that sits on a trailer that you see pulled through red square kind of thing. and that's the kind of missile it would take if this was brought down by a missile to bring down a plane at altitude, 33,000 feet or so. malaysia airlines says it is confirming it has received notification from ukrainian authorities that air traffic control lost contact with this plane at approximately 2:15 gmt. so somewhere in the neighborhood of, what, 9:15 east coast time or so. 30 miles or so from a particular

air traffic control way point. this was a 777, a boeing 777-200. extended range plane. that is commonly used for these long routes going from europe to asia or the united states to europe. the united states to asia. very commonly used. and we should also make the point that, of course, this is coming 4 1/2 months after malaysia airlines flight 370 disappeared on the flight to beijing. all evidence right now, according to those who are looking for that plane, continues to suggest that the plane did a u-turn and is still missing somewhere in the south indian ocean. they still haven't found a single piece of wreckage from that plane. now separate incident, this plane on a trans-european, trans-asia flight going down on the ukrainian/russia border in this heavily contested area with a lot of military activity. >> tom, if you have another minute, let me just ask whether malaysian air officials have any

read out of their final communications with the cockpit. >> no, they are only saying they lost communication with their plane and they are also saying the malaysians are also saying that it so far does not have confirmation the plane was brought down by a missile. i do have this. just now into us, from the faa. the faa issued a notice to airmen prohibiting u.s. airlines from flying from any operations until further notice in the air space over the crimea region of the ukraine and portions adjacent to the black sea. this action was taken due to the unilateral action by russia to assert control over crimean air space. this goes back several months. u.s. airliners should not be flying in that air space. but it is a question that clearly reporters will be putting to malaysian authorities. why was a malaysia airlines flight flying over what, for all intent and purposes, is a war zone, andrea.

>> but, tom, as far as i know it was not restricted air space. >> no. >> may have been for american airliners, commercial flights but it was not -- >> you are right about that. but individual airlines can make their choice that they're going to take a different route. they're not going to fly over one country or another, either because of restrictions that their own country puts on them or because of that airline's perceived notions of what's safest for the pilots and passengers. >> okay. tom costello, thanks very much for that update. recap exactly of what has happened here, which is a malaysian airliner from amsterdam to kuala lumpur at 33,000 feet, we believe, going down just short of the russian eastern ukraine border. near donetsk in an area that's seen a lot of conflict in the air space. claims from one adviser in kiev that it was shot down. other conflicting claims from separatists in the eastern

ukraine. no confirmation and no claim importantly from president poroshenko in kiev that in his statement that it was shot down. but his calls for an investigation. chris jansing, our senior white house correspondent is on the north lawn. the president has been notified. he's traveling to wilmington, delaware, today. but we don't know anything further of what the national security team has been told. >> no, we don't. what we do know is that this kind of happened simultaneously. at least when we started to get word, both on wire reports and through social media that a plane had been down, that was the time that the president was scheduled to board marine one on his way to andrews and then to delaware. he was delayed slightly. we don't know why, but we know the president has been briefed on this. he has directed his team to be in close contact with ukrainian officials. but one thing that's very important to say is the white house has not at this point confirmed any details of exactly what happened here. we do know, according to the

press secretary josh earnest that the president had a phone call with vladimir putin. what they told us about this phone call was about the new sanctions that were imposed yesterday. and as you know, the most far reaching sanctions since the incursion into the ukraine and the occupation of crimea. but he would not say whether they discussed this downed plane. he'd also not say what the status is of the briefing of with the national security officials. right now, there is no plan for the president to make comments on this while he is in delaware. but as you well know, andrea, this is a very fast developing situation and they will make that decision when the time comes. this is a president who doesn't like to say anything until he knows all the facts. and because this is such a developing situation, we may well not hear from him in delaware. from there he goes to new york city tonight. and we are keeping in close contact, obviously, here to find

out whether or not we expect any comments from the president. right now the word is none that they are planning. >> thanks so much from chris jansing, our senior white house correspondent. >> jim cavanaugh, retired atf special agent, joins me by phone. thanks for jumping in here. to stress, we don't know the cause of this plane crash. mechanical, pilot error or whether there was an incident. and, if so, whether it came from the ukrainian side, the eastern ukrainian separatists or, in fact, russia. but we do know that a plane is down. 295 people. 285 passengers, 15 crew members. malaysian air flight 17 from amsterdam to kuala lumpur. if there were an incident, would a man pad shoulder fired missile be able to reach a plane at 35,000 feet or would it have to be one of these anti-aircraft systems like the buk?

>> well, andrea, a buk if it was that, ukraunian source told reporters that it was that initially. we don't know. that's not verified as you've been reporting. the buk missile system basically is a surpass to air vehicle mounted system more than capable of taking down a passenger aircraft. and it had been operated for example by, you know, some separatist group with no controls over their actions, i mean, and they had the vehicle, these are usually track mounted vehicle or truck that has these large, you know, 15-foot missiles anthem. and they are making the decision whether they are going to shoot down an aircraft, certainly the missile would be capable of doing that. man pads are capable of getting pretty high altitudes as well. but certainly, the buk could easily do it, if it was in the hands of people on that border region. >> and we should just point out the president, as chris jansing

was pointing out, is traveling to wilmington, delaware, and then on to new york city. he did talk to vladimir putin. we believe that was today to discuss the sanctions. but it does seem that it most likely, just knowing how these calls are placed, unless it's a real emergency, it's not usually done from the car or from marine one certainly. it would be done most likely from the oval office where records could be taken. so that call was most likely made before the president was aware of this aircraft incident. we dont know that for sure, but most likely it was a scheduled call to discuss the sanctions. we did see reaction from medvedev speaking for russia today, very angrily speaking out about the sanctions. this was all, of course, before this tragedy in the air. >> if this is a terror incident

it escalates a conflict. we're looking at russian television which is looking at what apparently is the crash scene. >> right. exactly. makes one wonder what either side of the conflict, why would they want to shoot down a passenger aircraft that's not involved in the conflict? in other words, malaysian aircraft. so there's a lot of unanswered questions there. but this goes to if this turns out to be the case and like you've been reporting, we're not sure. if it turned out to be the case it shows you how when you have these groups -- separatist groups that don't have a national military control, national military purpose, direction, they are sort of aligned with someone but they may be operating on their own or really unsupervised, these tradition can happen in a conflict area. you had john cox on, tom costello on, aviation experts for sure talking about the safety of that aircraft. and how it was flying at 30,000

feet. how it is basically a safe aircraft flying at 32,000 feet. so it's a very unusual event. so a missile to take it down is not out of the realm of a probability here. and that conflict area. so it's going to be very interesting as it develops. i took with note as you mentioned earlier, we'll know in a few hours. i would say that the governments of the world already know because if that was a surface to air missile, u.s. satellites, russian satellites, chinese satellites have all picked up that launch. and they would know. so i'd say in the halls of intelligence and the military halls of the government around the world, they know if it is a missile that hit that aircraft. >> jim cavanaugh, which is a perfect segue to jim miklaszewski at the pentagon rejoining us. mik, i know right now what admiral kirby, the spokesman at the pentagon is saying is they do not know whether it was shot

down. but that is exactly the kind of intelligence that they are going to be going back over because there's plenty of coverage in that air space. >> that's absolutely right. increased coverage after the conflict between ukraine and the build-up of some 40,000 russian military fores along the ukrainian border. we had satellites in the air counting individuals as they were streaming to the border and then as they withdrew from the border and then just in the past couple of weeks, another build-up of russian forces to about 10,000 forces along the border. there are a couple of points that we need to make, however. and that is that while there may be some people within the intelligence and military world who know this, it hasn't filtered down throughout the pentagon. defense secretary chuck hagel just got a briefing on this. and we were told that it didn't contain any details that -- about a possible shoot down. as a matter of fact, we're told that so far, anyway, there's no

indication according to u.s. military and defense officials that the plane was shot down. doesn't mean it wasn't shot down. they just say at this point, they don't have that kind of evidence. and they also point out that while the -- both the ukrainian military and russian military do possess those buk missiles that would be capable of taking down an airliner, the ukrainian stockpile of those weapons is pretty much soviet era and it's not clear that they would have the capability to actually launch them at this point. the russians would. but they also said that there's no indication that the ukrainian separatists working with the russians inside ukraine, there's no indication that they have those buk missiles in their possession. so if it was a shootdown -- nobody is saying it was -- it would be most likely anyway, according to what little evidence there is, that it would be a russian shootdown but nobody is saying that at this

point. but again, i would think, andrea, as you know in this business, that it shouldn't take too long for them to figure it out, if in fact, that plane was shot down. >> and, in fact, they've got plenty of debris there. we're seeing pictures off of russian television now of the debris field. so tragically, we see clearly there were no survivors from this. this is 295 people. 280 passengers, 15 crew members. malaysian air flight, mik, which was at cruise altitude. and this is a workhorse plane, the 777. this is a plane that does long hauls. we've all flown on them across -- on international flights. most recently. and this is a plane that has very little -- very little history of crashes or other mechanical error. that said -- the horrible

convin coincidence of it being a malaysian airliner after what happened last year with the malaysian airliner. >> these airliners don't just arbitrarily just fall out of the sky generally speaking. it would have had to be a catastrophic event on board. but officials are also intrigued by the early release from malaysian -- the airline itself that the cabin crew apparently was reporting an event on board. was that event, you know, did they get struck by a missile and that was the event? some sort of terrorist activity on board? at this point it's all speculation. people here are cautioning that it's too -- way too early to come to any conclusions at this point. >> let's talk a lit about the satellite coverage because one of the most important facts that went into the decisions that were taken yesterday by treasury, the white house, the nsc on sanctions was proof that they claimed that in fact russia

was escalating its arms delivery and the resupplying of eastern ukraine rather than de-escalating. not only was there no cease-fire that in fact, there had been more russian artillery going across the border. they've got plenty of surveillance there. jim miklaszewski? >> yes, i'm sorry, andrea. i have been switched over to matt lauer for about ten seconds and just switched back. you know, you were talking about the build-up. we, you know, the u.s. did have eyes on those russian military forces that were moving -- regrouping back along the border. and even conducting some of those pulsing maneuvers where a brigade would rush the border, stop and then turn around and go back. so they are fully aware of what's going on on the border.

but perhaps even more importantly and this may have contributed, too, to the president's decision to impose more and tougher sanctions against the russians was the strong indication that the missile that brought down that ukrainian cargo plane on monday was launched from the russian side of the border. now, obviously, as you know, any administration likes to keep control of the intel and not reveal just how they know things. but if that's the case, if those are the indications that contributed heavily to the president's decision to crack down even further on the russian economy. >> and just briefly, mik, there also was a fighter jet the ukrainians claim was shot down just last night. >> right. and as soon as the malaysian airline, we were pursuing that. as soon as the malaysian airliner was reported down, that

sucked all the oxygen and reporting out of the air and we've been focussing on that. so we don't have any firm confirmation on that malaysian report. i mean on the ukrainian report. one of their aircraft was also shut down. >> jim miklaszewski, thanks so much. obviously, dial back in if you get any more information. thanks for all of your help. and kristen welker in the white house briefing room. you and i were talking only last night about ukraine and the sanctions and the briefings we were getting. as the white house was dialing up pressure on vladimir putin. this obviously is the backdrop for what may or may not have happened here. we don't know if this is just a horrible tragic coincidence but a malaysian airliner down with 295 people. >> that's right. it is an incredible backdrop indeed. and i'll just recap what we know from the white house. according to white house press secretary josh earnest who briefed reporters on air force one. president obama traveling to

delaware today. he told reporters that the president has been briefed on the reports of the downed malaysian airlines flight. however, and this is an important point, the white house at this hour not in a position to confirm any of those reports. we also know that president obama has directed his top officials to be in independent and direct contact with senior officials in ukraine. now to the backdrop that you discussed, andrea, of course, just yesterday as we reported here, president obama announced the stiffest sanctions yet against russia for what it says is ramping up its military incursion in eastern ukraine. we also know president obama spoke with russian president vladimir putin earlier today. josh earnest telling reporters that that conversation was focused on sanctions. of course, the big question mark is when did that conversation occur? did it occur before the president learned about the downed plane or after? josh saying that he wasn't in a

position to speak to the timing of that phone call. so it's not clear that the two leaders discussed the plane. and i heard you reporting earlier today that it would stand to reason that that phone call probably took place before president obama was briefed about the plane. but again, we're working to get confirmation about that. in terms of the president's schedule today, he's an a previously scheduled trip to delaware. he's about to speak at the port of wilmington. preplanned event which will focus on infrastructure. at this point in time, the white house does not have any plans for the president to speak to the downed plane but, of course, this is a developing situation so that could change. as you know, president obama is not going to speak to this until he feels as though he has all of the information. and one white house official just told me moments ago, they are really monitoring these breaking developments along with the rest of us. >> kristen welker and jim miklaszewski and our entire team, tom costello, thanks. we'll continue our coverage. vladimir putin is apparently expressed his condolences to

malaysia's prime minister. ronan farrow takes up our coverage right now. you are watching msnbc's continuing coverage. let's get you up to speed on where we stand right now in this malaysian passenger plane's case. it is reportedly crashed in eastern ukraine near the volatile border with russia. that flight was en route from amsterdam to kuala lumpur with 295 souls on board. 280 of them passengers. 15 of them crew. amateur video circulating on social media is showing what could be the plane crash. nbc news hasn't independently confirmed that that is what you are seeing but that appears to be the case. officials on site are reporting, according to the wires, at least 100 bodies scattered near that devastating scene. and wreckage scattered for up to nine miles around it. at this time, no one has claimed responsibili