from the american assets would be helpful also. >> alan diehl, thank you very much for joining me tonight. >> you're welcome. >> ari melbourne continues our coverage. it's 8:00 p.m. in the west. the sun is coming up and this is msnbc's special coverage of these two major stories. the crisis in gaza and what u.s. officials now believe was that missile attack on malaysia airlines flight 17. we begin where they've hunkered down in the first time since january of 2009. after 13 hours or so there are reports of five dead according to palestinian media. the u.s. has weighed in on the talks between netanyahu and secretary of state kerry.

secretary kerry according to this readout reaffirmed the obama administration's support for israel's right to defend itself. to carefully avoid any civilian deaths. only the we will also bring you the latest, of course, on that downed malaysian flight 17 which crashed this morning in a part of eastern ukraine and ultimately killing 298 passengers who were on board. senior u.s. officials say they believe the flight was taken down by a russian series missile. and minutes ago the u.s. calling for an investigation into the crash. in the meantime the fax has prohibited u.s. flights from flying over eastern ukraine air space until further notice. we'll return to eastern ukraine. first we will begin with our reporting and discussion of what is happening in gaza. joining me now, ambassador mark

ginsberg, the form he ambassador to morocco. thanks for being with us on a busy and harrowing day for all sorts of reasons. when we see these reports of five dead in the territory in gaza, what do they need to do? >> there's really two military objectives right now for the military in israel with respect to this incursion. first of all we don't know how long this is going to last. number three, there are three major objectives with respect to military targets. one of these infiltration tunnel that's border israel. number two are the infiltration tunnels by which hamas was able to smuggle arms and missile equipment from the sinai peninsula in the southern part of gaza. the third is to degrade hamas'

capacity to launch missiles into israel. and that means targeting directly the missile launching sites and in effect, where indeed these missiles are being held underground. israel cannot withdraw. cannot withdraw from this incursion without ensuring it is destroyed if not at least undermined significantly hamas' capacity to fire missiles into israel. if they withdraw without that being accomplished, mr. netanyahu will have a real political problem on his hands. he's had problems working with obama and is seen as a conservative. when you speak about the situation in israel, he has faced criticism from his right flank. he got one of his deputy ministers, a deputy defense minister pushed him out of the cabinet who had been critical of him not being tough enough. >> indeed.

and remember, when prime minister sharon unilaterally with drew from gaza in 2006, and hamas was able to take over, the israelis have used that, the right wing in israel has used that as an excuse. we cannot pull out of the west bank. and more importantly because of the attacks, in the right wing government to not just go in militarily but in effect, politically destroy hamas' control over the gaza strip. either reoccupy it or to try to in effect do a political jiu jitsu and in effect, authorize the palestinian authority, president abbas, to come back into the gaza strip and take political control. >> stay with us. i want to bring in some reporting from the ground. >> good morning to you. can you hear me? >> yes. i can hear you. good morning.

>> tell us what you've been seeing on the ground there of this overnight incursion. >> actually, there are continuous bombings. last night from the attacks on the borders and the eastern gaza strip and this is, was -- i only have sleep for one hour. now i don't know what we're requesting to do. >> and how are people dealing with this overnight? >> actually we don't have any shelter. here everyone has his own home. we are trying to stay away from the windows and doors so as not to get hurt. and we are staying at our homes.

just waiting for all of this to finish. >> laura, of course you're hearing the explosions we see on our screen here, some of the footage from last night. do you have any way of knowing how widespread the bombing was according to what you understand or what you could hear and see on the ground? >> actually, i feel the bombs but i didn't know where they are targeting. i wanted to say that we are all civilians in gaza and not all hamas. so we are just sitting in our homes and we don't know if we're going to die or not. so i don't have any reason to kill children and innocent people in their homes. >> you're referencing some of those recent attacks. what's the mood or the situation there? is there great unrest and great opposition to those recent civilian attacks, including the

controversial deaths of children? >> actually, no one in the street here and no one is moving, no cars or no one who is moving in the street. everyone is staying in his home as i told you that their home is the only shelter they have. i don't know how they are going to die, these people. >> laura, a freelance photographer and writer joining us this morning in gaza, thank you for your time and for telling us what you are seeing on the ground. we're going to turn to the latest on the other major international story today, details about malaysia 17 that was flying from amsterdam to kuala lumpur when it was shot out of the sky on the border of russia and ukraine. all 298 people on board were killed. all people on board were killed. the airline was shot down by an air missile. no confirmation on who fired that missile.

many suspect russian backed separatists in ukraine. meanwhile, russian president vladimir putin released a curious statement late today saying that it's actually ukraine which bears responsibility for the crash, quote, this tragedy would not have happened if there were peace on this land, if the military actions had not been renewed in southeast ukraine and certainly the state over whose territory this occurred bears responsibility for this awful tragedy, end quote. to support its allegations the ukrainian government has begun to release some evidence of its own. >> today ukrainian authorities relesioned audio recordings of what they claim are radio transmissions between a russian major and a russian backed rebel named greek.

that would look like damning information. we should mention nbc has not verified the recording and late tonight a pro-russian separatist spokesman called that very tape unprofessional propaganda telling a russian news agency to say you have intercepted conversations where first they are discussing whether the plane is ours or not, should are examples of unprofessional propaganda. joining me, senator chris murphy of connecticut who we should mention is a member of the senate armed services committee and visited ukraine as recently as last december. what exactly is president putin's responsibility in your view given what is known? >> president putin is responsible because, but for the russian invasion of crimea and their arming of these so-called separatists in ukraine, there wouldn't be planes shot out of

the sky in that country. russia is doing everything from stopping the ukrainian population from getting what they want including stoking a russian backed separatist movement in ukraine. whether or not this rocket came from russia, russia-backed separatists or the ukrainian military, the blood is on russia's hands because there would not be this instability, this conflict in eastern ukraine if it wasn't for the provocations of vladimir putin. >> senator, were you surprised by the statement from putin that we read earlier that this is ukraine's fault? >> thou dost protest too much. i think putin understands that there's a likelihood that this is a weapon that was provided by his government to the separatists or obtained by the separatists through some means.

these are people that he backs and in many cases directs so of course he's going to be defensive about this. i hope this is an incident that can convince the russians that it is no longer in their interest to continue to behave this irresponsibly. part of the reason why the united states has been reluctant to hand over very complicated anti-tank and anti-aircraft weaponry to the ukrainian military is that we are not sure that they have the necessary training to be able to use it responsibly. clearly, russia doesn't consider the same kind of factors in handing over weapons to the rebels and this may be a consequence of that irresponsibility. >> you're talking about convincing russia what is in their interest. what else should the u.s. and specifically the obama administration do in the coming days to convince them this is

not only not in their interest but that they have to change course drastically? >> well, the linchpin here is what europe is going to do. the united states has been pushing europe for months to move forward with more aggressive sanctions that would truly cripple the russian economy and move putin to a very different place. we have been unable to do that because for whatever reason the eu hasn't seen it as imperative as the united states has. this may change their calculation. our heart goes out to the netherlands, the dutch who have lost so many citizens in this tragedy. this may move europe to enact new crippling sanctions against russia which may then provide putin with the impetus to start pulling back his support for the rebel forces there. >> the u.s. congress going on its august recess soon. is there anything else that congress should step up and do before that recess? >> if there is room for the ntsb to get on the ground to try to

help figure out what happened, obviously congress is going to support that effort. this, unfortunately, is just the next shoe to drop in what is an escalating conflict. we have seen over the last 48 hours increasing military activity along that border. i think it's time for the united states to continue along the path of unilateral sanctions. i would like to see a bigger aid package from congress to the ukraine to try to support its economy during this very difficult time. this isn't going to make it any easier for the ukrainian government in kiev to try to restart its economy. i think it's time for the united states congress to step up its support for the ukraine during this troubling time and maybe we can try to get something done along those lines before we break for the august recess. >> senator, i appreciate you being with us here on what is certainly a busy day for you. i would be remiss if i didn't ask you about the other big story today. secretary kerry asking for a

precise operation. what is your view of this operation at this juncture and do you think the obama administration is striking the right tone and the right pressure on the israeli government at this time? >> well, hamas had the opportunity to engage in a joint cease-fire, and they turned down that opportunity. even worse, they have been using civilians as shields, storing missiles in elementary schools. there's a lot of culpability here when it comes to how hamas has conducted itself in the past 24, 48 hours. on the israeli side, if this is truly about clearing those tunnels, this needs to be a very targeted and time limited military exercise, and i hope, i trust, that the israelis know that when they engage in ground operations in gaza, it immediately becomes bulletin board material for those very terrorists that they are trying to stop. this is complicated. israel clearly has a right to

defend itself, but i hope that they are very targeted and precise in the operation here and understand what the consequences may be to israel's security down the line. >> senator chris murphy of connecticut, member of the senate arms services committee, thanks for your time tonight. >> thanks. >> our special live edition of all in continues next. we have much more from gaza where the sun is coming up on what is clearly the new phase in the ongoing conflict between hamas and israel. later bob hager will give us more details on the malaysian airliner shot down over ukraine. 

the very latest on the ground operations in gaza. we're going to go live to west bank and tel aviv and as we've been covering the downing of the malaysia flight 17. by a missile on the ukrainian/russian border. what washington is saying and what it means. that's next. stay with us. d style with one-of-a-kind scents.

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welcome back. the first full day of israel's ground invasion into gaza is just getting under way. we are covering it live tonight. tanks began rolling in around 10:00 p.m. local time thursday. it's now just after 6:00 a.m. in gaza. it's not at all clear how long this incursion will last. here's what the israeli government and military are saying about their objectives in gaza right now. israel's economy minister says the number one target is those underground tunnels that lead to israel from gaza. a spokesman said they will not be bound by a time line but will be driven by military goals. it will be to make sure that hamas terrorists will be pursued, paralyzed and threatened.

from the start of this conflict, the death toll in gaza 231 including 48 children. back with us at the table, nora, let me start with you, five palestinian deaths reported based on sources from palestinian media there that we're still looking to confirm and an incursion that we've reported israel says does not have any artificial time line in its view. is this a proportionate and precise operation? >> there's nothing proportionate about an all out massacre of civilians who are defenseless. 231 palestinians in ten days. 77% are civilians, 48 of them are children. 14 in the past two days. there has been this collapse in our mainstream discourse that hamas is all of palestine.

gaza is home to 1.8 million palestinian civilians. they are not all hamas. even assuming that hamas is as vile as it's been made out to be, nothing justifies this type of disproportionate force upon homes, upon four boys playing hide and seek on the shore and the lack of uproar and rage indicates that the value of life that we're ascribing to palestinians versus israelis. if 231 israelis had been killed, we know that president obama would have at least mourned the dead, and the fact that there's no one mourning these palestinian lives indicates the type of dehumanization that they have gone through. >> do you think no one is mourning these deaths and what's your view of this operation? >> first of all, i really hope

that people of good will across the lines and the world are mourning the deaths of the civilians and are facing up to the tragedy that faces both people. this is a futile cycle of violence that has rockets flying and terrorizing one side but having really no serious impact and responded by air strikes that are killing civilians but not damaging the rocket capacity. we're trapped in a futile circle of violence that's not serving anyone's purpose. i think people of good will on both sides have to recognize the tragedy of the people, the innocent civilians caught on both sides. in this case in particular, the children in gaza who have been dying over the last few days. >> ambassador, we were speaking, getting reports this morning from a photograph in gaza strip talking about the fact that hamas is not widely supported there, that it is more complex. you have just been in the region ten days ago. i know jeremy was there last

week. what's your view on that aspect specifically? >> it's very important to understand that the 1.6 million people who live in gaza are prisoners. they are caught in a position where they cannot flee and most of them would like to have a decent life and they don't deserve what's been afflicted on them courtesy of hamas and not just israel. there's no doubt in my mind that when the palestinian authority in hamas began, before the cycle of violence began these unity talks, because hamas recognized something that all of us understood. they had lost significant political support within the gaza strip with respect to their economic well-being, the sewer system had been collapsing, inadequate food supplies. it's not just because of the israelis but because hamas is largely a terrorist organization, feeding off of those people, using them as human shields and terrorizing them into submission by forcing

them to support hamas's goals. if an election was held before this began, hamas would have lost that election and palestinians would have won an election. >> when you look at rockets in schools and a lot of rockets going into israel and a general view here on the israeli side that they want to defame part of the military function of hamas to try to get back to a more calm set of politics, what would be wrong with that if hamas's military was somewhat constrained here? >> there's a few things going on here. we've heard repeatedly that israel has bombed schools, hospitals, homes with families inside because hamas is supposedly hiding weapons everywhere. anyone has yet to produce a shred of evidence that there have been rockets in any of those places. why are we swallowing this pill whole sale.

>> the guardian has reported that with regard to the schools. >> can you put it up on the screen about a hospital, rehabilitation center that the red cross was trying to evacuate today where 17 patients were trying to leave and could not. there were rockets in that hospital. all of this is to distract from the real issue. if all of these rockets stopped today, israel's debilitating siege will make gaza unlivable by 2020. that means that within six years those 1.8 million palestinians will be unable to survive because of a lack of access to water, a lack of access to proper infrastructure, medicine, to be able to travel. so we need to go structural issues at hand. what is making this a recurring issue? it's not a cycle of violence. there's continuing violence against palestinians. this is an escalation of violence that we need to continue to pay attention to and not turn our heads away because

it's not a spectacle. >> thank you all for your views and your insights here tonight. up next as we continue our special live edition of "all in" tonight, the flight 17 the other big story. how unusual is that catastrophic attack in the history of aviation? one man whom you may have seen can answer it better than anyone. our expert will be here to explain it to us. that's next. [ julie ] the wrinkle cream graveyard.

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welcome back to our live coverage. until the malaysia airlines jetliner crashed over ukraine today killing all 298 on board, it had been nearly 13 years since a commercial passenger flight had been shot out of the sky anywhere in the world. the worst instance prior to today took place back in 1988 when a missile fired by a u.s. naval cruiser shot down an iran air flight it had mistaken for a hostile aircraft that killed nearly 300 passengers. a similar tragedy occurred in 1983 a korean airlines drifted off course and was shot down by soviet aircraft. 1973, libya airlines flight was intercepted by israeli fighters which fired on the plane, causing it to crash in the desert, burst into flames and kill nearly everyone on board. yet in this day and age, a commercial aircraft being shot

down is still relatively unheard of because there's so rarely an actual strategic benefit to shoot one down for the type of individuals who control the few weapons that can pull it off. joining me now is long time correspondent robert hager. good evening to you, sir. >> how are you? >> i'm good. tell me why this is so rare. >> well, it's just that the idea of a plane flying over armed conflict like that and somebody firing on it is just so outlandish that we really have experienced it very, very rarely and statistically, you mentioned the only ones that are really high profile are kind of public cases. so that makes it completely different. i think people got to realize that when we talk about an

investigation of an incident like this, it's not your traditional idea of an air accident investigation where investigators go in and they're pouring over the wreckage and they can't wait to the get to the black boxes and send them off to the lab so they can be decoded and listened to. this is really a world of spy satellites and the imagery and things like that, not something for people that we're so use today hearing about from the national transportation safety board, the ntsb. >> that's a great point. you mentioned that and it was late tonight that the white house and a senior administration official told us that they support an international investigation, i think speaking as much to the legitimacy issues to get to the bottom of it as you say, not just the logistics of an investigation. what would this look like if the white house gets its way and they get an international look at this? >> i think the investigation would spin around hard evidence that the plane was, indeed, shot down by a missile and who has

what and people like the u.s. will confront a very interesting dilemma there. you were mentioning a case where the soviets shot down a korean airliner. it was near the bearing sea, off an island that's a part of russia. there the u.s. have positive proof of this. our listening posts in japan had actually picked up conversations from the soviet intercepter plane which was trailing the civilian aircraft, picked up the conversations where the pilot asked permission to shoot this plane down, gets permission, we hear the military command call back and say, okay, let it go and the pilot saying, okay, mission accomplished. he shot the plane down. we had that evidence. now the question is, you reveal all of your assets, your listening posts in japan in this case. we made that information public right away before the united nations, gene kirkpatrick, the

ambassador laid it out for everybody to see. now, if we've got some spy satellite images that show infrared shots of this blast occurring on the ground when the missile is fired and hitting the plane, now do we go public with that, show it, give it to international investigators? >> the politics we are reporting on as well with the separatists denying what ukraine released tonight. the other piece for commercial folks who fly, this is scary for everyone who flies. there was a map going around today showing all of these airlines avoiding this air space, and the faa on the u.s. side as we've reported said folks shouldn't fly there generally near crimea. you can see on the screen the map of the flights avoiding it after the plane was down today. bob, help us understand for folks at home who fly, why was a plane even near what was a hot conflict zone?

>> that baffles me to tell you the truth. there's an economic incentive for airlines. the biggest single expense is the fuel. so you want to get the shortest route from a to b. if that involves going through air space like this, i guess that must have played into their consideration. i think a lot of other airlines near as i know were detouring around this conflict. to me, that's only common sense. i can't understand why international civil aviation authorities such as the united nations organization hasn't said nobody fly in this space. i mean, that's asking for it. >> and using more safety and precaution, erring on that side. that's something that for so many people and families tonight is a tragic question. nbc aviation correspondent bob hager, thank you so much. >> thank you. up next, our live coverage continues. we have some heavy weights of american politics weighing in on today's two big stories, new reaction tonight from hillary clinton you're probably going to

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♪ welcome back. appearing on the charlie rose show tonight former secretary of state hillary clinton didn't hesitate to offer her theory of who was behind the attack on malaysia airlines flight 17. >> the ukrainian government has been quick to blame it on terrorists which is their name for the russian insurgents. there does seem to be some growing awareness that it probably had to be russian insurgents. how we determine that will require some forensics. but then if there is evidence pointing in that direction, the equipment had to have come from russia. >> pretty swift conclusion from senator clinton. she was not alone. john mccain blamed putin and called for a strong response. >> the separatists could only have gotten that capability from

russia from the culpable party is vladimir putin. we must react in a stringent fashion. he has clearly been fomenting this situation in eastern ukraine, recently sending in additional troops and additional equipment for the, quote, separatists. >> meanwhile tonight as we've been reporting, the obama administration has committed to aiding what it calls a need for an international investigation into who and what exactly brought down this flight in the separatists-controlled part of eastern ukraine killing all 298 passengers. the crash aggravating what is of course already a intense and unstable situation in the region with clashes between the pro-russian separatists and the ukrainian government's forces. just yesterday president obama announced his own increased sanctions against russia for continuing to send military aid, including heavy weaponry, to the separatists. now washington and the world is debating what comes next, what do we do now.

vice-president joe biden was speaking at a liberal conference in detroit today and alluded to the potential geopolitical consequences of this crash. >> it's important to get to the bottom of this sooner or later because of the possible repercussions that can flow beyond the tragic loss of life. >> what all that means for what happens next on the geopolitical stage when we come back on this special live edition of "all in." stay with us.

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why pay more for less? call today for a low price on speeds up to 150mbps. and find out more about our two-year price guarantee. comcast business. built for business. whether or not this rocket came from russia, from russia-backed separatists, or from the ukrainian military, the blood is on russia's hands because there would not be this kind of instability, this kind of conflict in the eastern ukraine if it wasn't for the provocations of vladimir putin. >> that was senator chris murphy on air here in the 11:00 p.m. hour. joining me now is steve clemens, editor at large of the atlantic ? new american senior fellow. and policy analyst for the center for american progress who

is in detroit where he saw joe biden today. let me start with you, steve. when you look at this kind of situation in the downed plane, you have immediately a tragedy of epic human proportions which we've been covering but you also have obviously both the international geopolitical piece and the domestic piece. we just played senator murphy, a democrat. let me play john mccain from fox news this evening taking some shots here at the president on a political basis. take a listen. >> fundraisers in new york while there are major, major conflicts, not to mention the loss of american lives, it's reported that there were americans on that airplane. i do not understand it. i think your network has already played the clip of ronald reagan's reaction when the south korean airliner was shot down. this is what we used to call in the military a.w.o.l. >> is the president a.w.o.l.?

>> absolutely not. i'm a careful reader of the president's and vice-president's phone conversations every day with president poroshenko and european leaders. each one of them very carefully underlining the fact that russia and specifically in the obama call that russia had not lived up to any of the commitments that it had made and that it was extremely worrisome about the transfer of both personnel and heavy weapons. this was consistent in every line. i was talking to someone that was basically thinking that putin was looking for a way out of this, was afraid of more sanctions. i said that's not what's coming out in these readouts. so the president is worried about this, but what john mccain is calling for is a much deeper kind of intervention. this is a complicated mess. one of the things that i think

is misunderstood about obama is that you need to have a combination of action and restraint. you can put yourself in something like this that draws the united states in something that actually captures our power and limits it as opposed to leveraging it. huffing and puffing the way that lindsey graham and john mccain have been asking for doesn't solve the problem. >> matt, what are your thoughts? we played sound bites from vice-president biden and former secretary of state clinton talking about, yes, there may be responsibility here but not rushing to what the u.s. should do just yet? >> right. i think the right response is to wait and see what the evidence shows. i think senator mccain, to take his path, would immediately make this about the united states. i think if you look at the way president obama and his team have dealt with the russia incursion into ukraine in support for separatists there, they've done, i think, a very good job of keeping the focus and the onus on russia and

putin. marshaling international opinion, international support for sanctions and actually getting putin to back off. a few months ago we were talking about how much further would putin go into ukraine. he's clearly not going to do that and the pressure is on and obama has done a good job of keeping that pressure. >> that's the part of this that's frustrating about this. it's going to take europe and everyone across the ideological spectrum is aware of that. secretary clinton talked about that in this interview with charlie rose tonight, steve. take a listen to that. >> if there is evidence linking russia to this, that should inspire the europeans to do much more on three counts. one, toughen their own sanctions. make it very clear there has to be a price to pay. number two, immediately accelerate efforts and announce they are doing so to find alternatives to gas prom. russia has not diversified it's

economy. it's largely dependent on natural resources, principally gas and oil. thirdly, do more in concert with us to support the ukrainians. the europeans have to be the ones to take a lead on this. it was a flight from amsterdam to kuala lumpur over european territory. there should be outrage in european capitals. >> how do you do that? i recently had a conversation with him. i asked him if he thought putin and russia's behavior had tacked in a different direction or were the things we were seeing a one off. anomalies that you could continue with russia and hope that it would come back and bounce back into being what is largely considered to be mostly responsible in global affairs. so economically, energy, dealing with iran.

i think a lot of people don't want to argue that russia has moved in a different direction. >> that's where the eyes will be moving tomorrow. it is daybreak in gaza on the first full day after israel's ground invasion began. we are going next to tel aviv and ramallah. we have some new reporting and some live conversations to bring to you. so stay with us as this live edition continues. we needed 30 new hires for our call center.

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we are back. almost midnight on the east coast. morning in gaza. still less than 12 hours old. the culmination of more than a week of escalating tensions and missile fire in israel and hamas. this operation is focused on those tunnels dug by hamas that are under the border and so far thousands of israeli soldiers are involved in this ground offensive. let's get right to it. joining me now, the professor of history at the university of michigan and by phone from ramallah in the west bank. co-founder of the palestinian national initiative and by phone from tel aviv, the diplomatic correspondent from israel there. what can you tell us about how this is all playing out for the palestinians in gaza? >> well, it is clear that this military israeli operation, they were just excuses to conduct this terrible offensive which is becoming a massacre against the

civilian population in gaza. in the last 24 hours, the israeli army killed two children between the ages of 3 and 11. and this is becoming a huge massacre. i guess 260,000 people in the northern part of gaza which israel wants to evacuate from their homes. the total death toll so far has been 252 palestinians killed versus two israelis killed. and the horrifying number is the number of people injured. we are talking about 2,200 palestinians injured. two-thirds of those injured are women and children. >> doctor, the disparity in those numbers is certainly caused -- a lot of international concern. i want to go to amir because of our short time line.

your view of what this is achieving at this point and whether it is as the doctor mentioned, something approaching a massacre in gaza. >> i want to say that i am not hear to represent -- i am just trying to report what's happening on the ground. i agree the situation in gaza is very hard, heart breaking. i know people who are there and they're under terrible conditions. but israel didn't want to do this operation. it really, really didn't. the current leadership waited and waited for more than a week while hamas, the organization that controlled gaza was firing rockets into israel and digging tunnels into israeli villages to smuggle terrorists into them. and they really wanted to avoid this current scenario. he said again and again, we want calm. stop attacking. we will not retaliate.

he was really criticized by right wing factions in the israeli government for being weak on terrorism and not acting strong enough. but he decided to wait and wait because he wanted to get support from the international community. the fact that right now we are here in egypt, one of the most important arab countries in the world, blaming hamas for the situation. i'm not saying this because i support the terrible things that are happening in gaza but to get the picture more clear. >> understood. what is your take on this incursion? and we reported according to palestinian sources, five deaths as the sun rises in gaza. >> yes, from the israeli point of view, it is a counter terrorism operation. they're seeking to inflict attrition to hamas capabilities, destroy their opportunities, destroy their little rockets

that they've been firing out into israel. mainly into the desert, frankly. but it is a political problem. unless the political problem is solved, we'll be here again in three years. and gaza is under siege by israel. it is not at peace with israel. and unless that political problem is addressed, then there is going to be violence. >> and what do you see as the time line? israel emphasizing that they will not be could not strained but there will be international pressure as this mounts. >> the israeli leadership when it launches these operations always knows eventually the united nations will intervene. the international community will pressure them and they try to get as much done from their point of view as they can before that pressure becomes insurmountable. at the moment they believe they have a set of counter terrorism tasks before them. in the meantime they really have been indiscriminate in their bombardment of civilian institutions, including hospitals. they have inflicted a lot of civilian harm. >> we are out of time here as we approach midnight.

i want to thank these guests. we wish we had more time. we will be staying on this story and reporting on it as the evening continues. that is all in for this evening. the rachel maddow show starts right now. this is one of those historic days in the news. newspapers feel like they need two front pages. this is the home page for "the new york times" right now. they basically split their available real estate as a newspaper to do two lead stories at once. it's the same thing at "the wall street journal." essentially making both these stories their lead story right now. same thing, again, at "the washington post." in the space of 31 minutes this afternoon, the news broke that u.s. intelligence had confirmed that the passenger jet that crashed in ukraine today was shotn