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everyone is looking for information. and immediately engaging ukrainians, talking to our nato allies to see who has what. but because this, i think, is going to be a relativity easy

intelligence problem to solve, they're going to quickly move from who did this to what the policy response is. and the meetings will be about what sort of pressure should there be, with nato, with our allies? and what should we be doing against the separatists in ukraine, assuming that's who fired this missile. >> talking about policy issues and our allies in the coming days. and showing you the provocative headlines drilling down on what we are covering down. flight murder at 33,000 feet, the downing of mh-17. "the daily news" saying, this is putin's war. joining us from moscow, is jim maceda. let's get to what is coming from the kremlin here and how vladimir putin is responding. people will say, no matter what, because most likely this missile is originating from russian soil, this is a russian/kremlin problem. >> right. so far, the reaction has been pretty much anticipated.

it's the blame game. what seemed encouraging at first, was how quickly president putin called president obama about the crash, has already dissipated somewhat. right after that, what was clear is that the finger-pointing started. the ukrainian -- and not just with president putin. ukrainian president, poroshenko, called it a terrorist act. and blamed, if you recall, the pro-russian rebels for launching this ground-to-air missile, that apparently took out the plane. and he blamed president putin's government, for providing the weapons, or the sa-17. and the pro-russian separatists are denying it was them. they say they don't have weapons capable of taking out a plane at 33,000 feet. and they blame the ukrainian army. putin himself, perhaps,

concerned about fallout, in terms of relations with the west, specifically with the united states. then seemed to back off from accusing anyone of actually pulling the trigger. but he clearly laid a larger blame on kiev. saying if the ukrainian military hasn't broken the unilateral cease-fire and recalled its anti-terror operation, recently, the whole tragedy would never have happened. we see here, putin once again working the game very well. casting himself as a man of peace, as a statesman surrounded by warmongers. >> let's talk about pro-russian separatists who claim to have taken the black boxes from this crash site. if that's the case, what has the kremlin owned up to any communication it has with the pro-russian separatists and

maybe they can get the black boxes from them? >> putin has been very clear, since the annexation of crimea, what his strategy is. and this is to deny, deny, deny. to say he has little or no leverage over the rogue operators. there it's up and down the border with russia. he says that and does everything he can possibly do to destabilize ukraine. to keep it weak. to keep it volatile, which works in his favor, because whatever the future will bring to that troubled country, it will have to go through him. in terms of the black boxes, he spoke out strongly about russia having to take the lead in the investigation. that scared a number of analysts here in moscow, even, saying

that if putin is in charge of this international investigation, it would be like, excuse me, piling on a disaster on top of an already huge tragedy. we just don't know specifically at this point, where those boxes are. if they do end up in the hands where they belong, which is the ukrainian president, the international group who are in charge, allegedly, including the united states and russia, and ukraine, in charge of this investigation that's beginning now. that may work out. but if it becomes a hijacking by russia, and by putin, in the name of objectivity, which is what he said, russia needs to be a part of this because otherwise the conclusions will lack objectivity, that it would be a disaster. >> jim maceda in moscow for us.

thank you. i appreciate it. want to bring in richard haass, the president of the council on foreign relations. great to have you here with us. let's talk about jim's reporting. the pro-russian separatists do not have a direct line to the kremlin, according to vladimir putin. but they allow the pro-russian separatists to destabilize the region there. >> not just allow. they have enabled. russia is the enabler here, even if not involved tactically in the last 24 hours. >> the missile system that was used, most likely originated from russian soil. got in the hands of these pro-russian separatists. if they are able, if russia is able to broker receiving the black boxes from the russian separatists who claim to have taken them from the crash site, they're going to lend themselves to trying to figure out the origins of what happened.

how do we deal with this? putin is playing his own game. he's not in this for the international service. >> i wouldn't put that much emphasis on the black boxes here. this is not a crash. this is a plane that was shot down. all other intercepts could come into play. the communications between the separatists, between them and military places. the black boxes tell you about the plane. they don't give the larger context. that's where intelligence and social media. there's all sorts of stuff out there in social media, originally about the separatists talking amongst themselves. i would believe that regardless of whether you have access to the boxes, there will be a powerful case that the separatists in this. >> okay. in most likelihood, intelligence officials already have the picture that they need, given the timeframe we're dealing with, since the plane went down and where we are now, to put together a clearer image of what

took place. from a policy standpoint, how is the u.s. and our allies supposed to respond to this because this changes the landscape of what's taking place between ukraine and russia and where the international community needs to step in. >> the single biggest question is, how do the europeans react? something of a gap has opened up between american policy and european policy. the sanctions that were announced earlier this week, the u.s. was considerably ahead of the europeans. but mainly europeans on the plane yesterday. to me, the single-biggest question is what is the european political action? and does this move european governments, the germans and others, much closer to the american position? if that's the case and that's what mr. putin wants to avoid above all else. if that's the case, that becomes significant. >> angela merkel came out saying those responsible will be held accountable. we have a good relationship with angela merkel, in terms of the

white house. angela merkel has a good relationship with vladimir putin. germany being a client state when it comes to energy needs for its country, directly from russia. does she emerge as the person to be considered the most honest broker in all of this? >> i'm not sure we're talking about brokering. we're talking about putting more pressure on russia. much better help for ukraine. more bolstering of nato. the real question, putin for the first time, if he faces a much more robust and antagonistic europe, and much more of a united front between the united states and europe, does that get mr. putin to reconsider his policy? up until now, he's done it with limited cost. that's the biggest issue. >> okay. we had senator john mccain and others calling for a harder line policy. whether it be directly from us or from our allies involved, as well, to go against russia. that this is going to be vladimir putin's problem. we had vladimir putin talking to the president, while the president is conveying new

sanctions against russia. and vladimir putin reveals this plane crash has happened. don't you think that changes the trajectory of all this because the conflict demands larger attention and something more than the sanctions that have been imposed. >> the real question is will the leadership of europe, the french president busy selling ships to russia, germany, hedging its bets, the others, whether they are willing to essentially close the gap in the economic sanctions the united states has imposed. if they're willing to do this, then this crisis -- essentially, the cost/benefit calculus for mr. putin will change. we'll see if he begins to press or he will pull back. >> we're going to ask you to stick around as we continue our coverage throughout this hour. we're going to have more on what the tragedy means for the airline involved, malaysia airlines.

>> for struggling malaysia airlines it's two lost flights in four months. 534 lives. reaction on twitter, shock and surprise. unreal, one tweet says. malaysia airlines crash again. >> this is a tragic day. in what has already been a tragic year for malaysia. woman: what do you mean, homeowners insurance doesn't cover floods? [ heart rate increases ] man: a few inches of water caused all this?

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when you go into an active war zone, you're concerned first and foremost about your people that you're putting on the ground there. and you have to think about the evidence and the wreckage recovery. and for sure, you want to think about the family members that have lost loved ones. the recovery of the human remains and the personal effects, that also has to be a priority, too. and so, there's a lot going on here. and it's a real challenge for anyone. but particularly, for a country in a war-torn area like this, it

has got to be a double burden. >> that's former ntsb chair, deborah hersman on the double-edged sword on whether this crash can be investigated properly, after we know the crash zone has been contamina contaminated. meanwhile, malaysian airlines have been criticized for its handling of flight 370, after that flight disappeared in the indian ocean. this morning, releasing details of the flight's maintenance record. the airline says the jet was checked on july 11th, and had a clean bill of health. we are told it has been in service for 17 years. the fact this is the same airline and the same type of plane, a boeing 777, that vanished without a trace, just over four months ago, isn't lost on anybody. nbc's ron mott has more on that angle. >> reporter: the pain and anguish for surviving family members of any airplane crash are raw. i need you to help me find my

son, this mother cried. i just want to see my son. her son was on malaysia airlines flight 370, which disappeared on march 8th, enrude from kuala lumpur to beijing. and still today, not a single piece of wreckage has been found. those families are offering condolences to another group, the family members of flight 17. for struggling malaysia airlines, it's two lost nights in four months. 534 lives. reaction on twitter, shock and surprise. unreal, one tweet says. malaysia airlines crash again. >> how do you convince people to fly your airline anymore when you've had not one, but two terrible tragedies in such a short period of time? >> reporter: mh-370 remains a mystery that captivated the world. after months of high-tech searching by air and under water, false leads, analyzing cockpit communications, tracking the flight path on radar, tens of millions spent and no clue where the plane is.

just last week, the airline said, our top priority remains to look for the missing mh-370 and giving closure to the families for those onboard mh-370. >> this is a tragic day, in what has already been a tragic year for malaysia. >> reporter: it's a largely unprecedented doubt with tragedy for one airline. >> of course, a terrible huge tragedy, first and foremost. but a financial tragedy, too. an airline experiencing all this, let alone surviving it. >> reporter: an airline facing the unimaginable. an ongoing search for a missing plane deep in the indian ocean. and now this, a plane shot out of the air in the middle of a war zone. >> that was nbc's ron mott reporting. details are starting to emerge. let's go over this one more time about the 298 victims onboard mh-17. we have details there were 173 people from the netherlands. 44 people from malaysia. authorities are trying to

identify the nationalities of roughly 20 people. and the u.s. state department is working to determine if any american citizens were onboard. however, there are certain news agencies that are reporting that there were americans onboard. again, we do not have that confirmation yet from the state department. stay with us. our coverage for malaysian airlines flight 17 continues after this quick break.

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emergency crews and reporters on the ground in eastern ukraine are witnessing a

horrifying scene they certainly will not forget anytime soon. "the new york times'" sabrina taverness said that in another field, a dutch passport lay open. bodies fell from the sky, looking like regulars or clumps of ash. that's what residents and rescue workers saw after malaysia flight 17 came to rest in a field dotted with purple flowers, trailing debris over several miles over farmland. it was horrible, said a separatist rebel, who was part of the rescue crew. many of the victims were still in their seat belts, attached to pieces of the plane. others had personal belongings nearby. a young man in blue shorts, wearing red nike sneakers. no pants, however, lay with his arms and legs sprayed outward. his iphone by his side. devastating images there, as we learn more about this fiery crash. malaysia airlines. it was a 777.

it takes place among some of the worst airline incidents ever recorded. it comes 18 years to the day, that twa flight 800 crashed in 1986. that was a fuel tank explosion. but there's within examples of hostile actions taking down commercial jets. and we get more on that from nbc's kate snow. >> reporter: it was september 1st, 1983. the height of the cold war. >> the united states accused if soviet union of shooting down a jumbo jet. >> reporter: days later, president reagan addressed the nation. >> i'm coming to you tonight about the korean airline massacre. the attack by the soviet union against 269 innocent men, women and children, aboard an unarmed korean passenger plane. >> reporter: korean airlines flight 007 was supposed to fly from new york city to seoul, stopping over in anchorage, alaska. but it drifted offcourse and headed towards soviet air space. soviet jets fired warning shots

that were ignored. the target is destroyed. everyone onboard was killed. a tragedy that further enflamed tensions between the u.s. and the ussr. >> we can see no excuse whatsoever for this appalling act. >> reporter: when a plane is shot out of the sky, there are rarely survivors. bob hager covered the news for three decades. >> when they recovered the plane's recorders from previous incidents, you hear the noise of the missile hitting a plane. milliseconds of a bam and nothing. >> we are following developments in the persian gulf, where there's been a major tragedy. >> reporter: in 1988, it was the united states that made the mistake. a surface-to-air missile was fired from the deck of the udeca

carrier, at what they thought was a fighter jet. they celebrated a combat victory. they were wrong. >> the u.s. government deeply regrets this incident. >> reporter: u.s. officials took responsibility for killing 274 passengers and 16 crew members. >> two missiles were fired. and the deed was done. >> reporter: in that case, it was clear what happened early on. >> that was nbc's kate snow reporting about incidents just like the one that we're covering now. stay with us. we're going to take a quick break. "morning joe" starts in 90 seconds. @ñ

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♪ the plane has sh crashed somewhere near the ukrain ukraine/russia border. >> pentagon officials are scrambling to figure out what happened here. >> i was in my house when i heard two explosions. i ran out and saw black smoke everywhere. >> i want to be sure of what i say. apparently, had been shot down. shot down. a