resume shortly and we're going to continue our coverage tonight. stay with us. "weekends with alex witt" starts now. . mh-17 tragedy. investigators say they can't get to the crash scene, and no one seems to know the fate of the black boxes. the latest on that mystery ahead. the flight path. questions today about whether the entire episode should have been avoided. and are special planes still flying over the site right now? . could this incident trigger a bigger conflict between the u.s. and russia, or might it actually have the opposite effect? deeper into gaza. exactly how far the ground war is expected to go. a live report.

good morning, everyone here's what's happening. a group of investigators trying to return to the crash scene of mh-17 in eastern ukraine. a team of europeans was allowed to examine the debris friday for 75 minutes before being forced out bymen. this morning the ukrainian government says russian separatists took 38 bodies from the crash scene to a morgue in donetsk. they indicate the plane was shut down by a surface to aramis ill from an area launched by russian-backed separatists in eastern ukraine. here in the u.s., makeshift memorials outside the dutch and malaysian embassies in washington, d.c. attracting many people, including one woman from the netherlands. >> it's horrible. and these are people they have nothing to do.

it's very unfair. and there's no words to describe the injustice that has been done to the people they leave behind. >> the 298 people on board that flight came from 12 nations, most from the netherlands, malaysia and australia. one woman with dual citizenship was on that flight. malaysia's transport minister is defending the flight's path, saying it was declared state by the national aviation civil organization. joining me now msnbc analyst and former airline pilot john cox. welcome. thank you for joining me. >> my pleasure. good to be here. >> so i'm curious about protocol for international flights. is there some? and why wouldn't this plane avoid flying over this hostile territory? >> well, you have to realize before this tragic event an

airliner at cruising altitude has never been threatened with a weapons system like this. it has been a matter of routine. and they proper had said, okay, there's armed conflict going on here. so we're going to restrict flights to 32,000 feet or above. and at that point the shoulder fired missiles, which are a larger threat typically around the world, they cannot reach that kind of altitude. so after a risk assessment done by the airline, they concluded it was safe, as did a number of other airlines. it's important to recognize that there were airplanes flying up and down this airway above 32,000 feet pretty regularly. so there was nothing to indicate that on this day suddenly the risk had changed, the threat had changed and that a weapons system like this would be employed against a commercial airliner. >> you're right. the airport transport minister said it had been more than 50

planes that had been flown in that area. are they still flying in the air right now? >> the last thing that i have read that said there is a prohibition from the surface to unlimited. it is a complete total prohibition against flights in the airspace except for ukrainian military aircraft. that's the only exception based on the notice no airmen that i have read. >> is there any sort of equipment on a commercial plane that detects incoming missiles, or is that never put on planes like that? >> it's not put on commercial airliners. there's a few countries around the world that have specific threats that have more active systems. but as a general rule, no. there's nothing on a commercial airliner that even says a targeting radar has locked on it, which in this case that would be the first indication that the targeting radar had acquired the airplane. but, no, the commercial airliners don't have any warning system like that. >> john, the likelihood, this

sa-11 it's believed that brought down this plane, the rate with which it can be launched and go over a mile per second, it's likely this plane never saw it coming, right? >> i don't believe they had any indication until impact that there was any problem or potential problem. the way these missiles work is they have a radar target and they acquire it. it's very often from behind. so that would eliminate any possibility of the crew being aware that anything was wrong until suddenly there was this catastrophic explosion and the airplane was fatally damaged. >> john, we are looking for the black boxes. what is it that we will get in terms of information, if anything, if we already know the missiles are taking down this plane. do the boxes really matter? >> well, they do in a sense. unlike most investigations, they're not going to tell us the tale the. but they will tell us what

happened to the airplane. and i think for the purposes of a transparent and complete investigation, it's going to be important to have them. there's a number of different organizations that can read those out. and it's up to ukraine once they get them to determine who they want to do the read outs. so we know it was a missile. is it absolutely vital to have the black boxes in this case? probably not. will it help and give us a more complete investigation? yeah, it would. certainly, whoever has those boxes i would encourage to release them to the ukrainian deposit. >> john, as a former airline pilot yourself, can you imagine what's going through the minds of commercial airline pilots on this day thinking of what has happened in the safety of the skies? >> well, pilots recognize and do risk assessments all the time. it's part of the way they are trained.

so they are going about their job. they are flying airplanes routinely. this is a once -- a one off event. it's never happened before. so i don't think there is random fear in any way. i believe the pilots quite professionally are going out and doing the job they are trained to do. the fact that we have seen a weapons system of this certification in the hands of people who are so poorly trained and so poorly executed target identification is very disconcerting. it doesn't the say there is a major risk to commercial aviation. >> thank you very much for speaking with us. i appreciate it. indiana university is mourning a student on that flight. they are describe thing keljzer as delightful and someone who

made friends easily. what are you learning about her? >> 25-year-old carlynn was one of those people who shined athletically and academically. her last project here was working on an anti-cancer drug showing promise in treating alzheimer's, prompting the dean of her college to describe her as a bright star. another administrator said she continually inspired others with her strong belief that science would help improve the lives of those here on earth. she was also a member of the rogue team. in 2011, she was the stroke of her boat, the person who sets the rhythm for the rest of the team. combined with her personality, which is described as warm and funny. she was a natural leader and someone the other rowers looked up to. >> are there memorials planned by the university on her behalf?

>> people here are really in shock. they expected keljzer to continue about leading her life which showed so much promise. really just a lot of shock at the university. we are waiting to see if they plan the memorial now or wait until fall semester where more students and more people who knew her are back on campus. >> thank you so much for that report. >> u.s. officials say they are certain it was a surface to aramis ill that brought down malaysian flight 17. but the question is who fired it? good morning to you. what are your sources telling you? >> reporter: as you say, alex, u.s. officials are absolutely certain, otherwise they wouldn't have sent president obama out to say, this was a missile fired from rebel-hell territory in eastern ukraine that brought down the malaysian airliner. but, again, there's some

ambiguity about exactly who filed the shot. according to the officials we're talking to, they believe that russian military forces were somehow directly involved in the shootdown. russian trainers and advisers had been crossing into ukraine to train and advise those rebel forces in eastern ukraine on how to operate some of the sophisticated weapons systems that the russians had been turning over to the rebels, including these surface to aramis ill launchers. according to the sources, there is some indication that the russians either were directly involved in firing the missile or at least gave the command to those forces to shoot it off. >> so, you have to be trained on this, right? you can't just walk up and -- and doesn't there have to be more than one person while they are launch something it can't be

one person hitting a button saying to. >> you're right, alex. it is a complicated electronic sweep in the missile launcher itself that helps guide the missile to its target. and, you know, if in fact, it was a mistake, and they indicate that some of the rebels and even a russian major we're surprised that it was an airliner. those radar-guided missiles can see a target but they have no way to identify what it is. their argument perhaps that this is an accident. military officials i talked to say they don't know of any military force that would purposely and deliberately shoot down an airliner in the air.

so they are looking at this as an accident. but as the president has said, the u.s. claims and insists that the russians, including president vladimir putin, are culpable for continue to go pour weapons into eastern ukraine and escalate the violence. >> okay. thank you very much. what the downing of flight mh-17 means is an already tense relationship. and the tactic israel is taking to warn palestinians to evacuate their homes before a strike. tat and startup ny companies will be investing hundreds of millions of dollars in jobs and infrastructure. thanks to startup ny, businesses can operate tax free for 10 years. no property tax. no business tax. and no sales tax. which means more growth for your business, and more jobs. it's not just business as usual.

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eastern ukraine, it remains a tragic scene of lives cut short. the bodies in the bed are exposed to the elements and covered by plastic sheets if at all. strewn across the six mile site is the luggage, a child's pink suitcase, guide books for exotic destinations never reached. joining me from eastern ukraine is kira simmons. what are you seeing? >> reporter: that's right, alex. at the crash site in donetsk, the militia are being accused to not allow international investigators to get close. they are absolutely denying it. they are accusing the militia of destroying evidence and making it difficult to cover the bodies. some already accuse of causing

the crash. the debris still smoking, strewn around. for two nights now, the personal possessions and bodies left in the open. white markers marking where remains have been found. the malaysian government increasingly angry. >> malaysia is deeply concerned that the crash site has not been properly secured. the intelligent of the site has been compromised. the world has a moral obligation to ensure that the remains of all victims are recovered and treated with respect. >> and when an international team arrived at the crash site friday -- >> what we are here for is to see what measures are in place. >> reporter: they said they were given limited access. whoever crosses the line will face the consequences said a rebel commander. two fbi agents and ntsb investigator are on their way to

ukraine. u.s. officials say malaysian flight 17 was shot down by a surface to aramis ill that was fired from ukraine near the russian border. relatives of the 298 people killed, including one american citizen, will want to know who fired the missile. but that may be difficult to establish with officials sent happen. >> the official body that might be best placed really to contain that site may be the ukrainian government. it seems so unlike live since they ever fighting that very government. just to share shocking news we're hearing from a militia news conference held in the last hour, one of the leaders of that group saying apparently at that news conference that it is possible that local people here have been using the credit cards of some of those victims. so suggesting perhaps that some

kind of looting has happened and they have those credit cards. if that is the case, that is actually stunning, alex. >> stunning, yeah. it renders me speechless. that is pretty extraordinary right there. medal of honor recipient jack jacobs and msnbc military analyst. let's talk in detail about how they have been able to indicate where that was fired. >> we have a number of satellites over difficult areas, including this one. it gives us continuous or nearly continuous view of the battle field. one set of eyes is in the optical range. so we can see in exquisite detail what's taking place on the ground in real-time with great resolution. really great resolution. another set is in the infrared

range. we can detect the launch of miss, for example. down to incredible detail and as a result we can tell what is being fired, what is being fired, and from where it was being fired. never a doubt of what it was or where it was coming from. >> okay. how about the missile and its target. they were at the talking about how they might not be able extinguish a military aircraft and commercial airliner. when you are going faster the speed of sound over a mile a second you would think it would have some sort of ability to figure out what it is targeting. >> well, all systems have an iff, identification of friend or fo, both for ground launch missile systems and air launch missile systems. but it's got to be working. it's got to have the current

software. you've got to look at it and so on. >> and have to know how to work it too. you have to be trained in that. >> that's correct. it may we will it wasn't working. or if it was, they didn't pay any attention to it. it's clearly a mistake of firing the missile in the first place. giving somebody who doesn't center much training a system like this is a bit like giving a loaded weapon to a 5-year-old. you can pull the trigger. you can't operate it very well. you don't know what you're doing. it does give app unambiguous, they may not be working here or they may not be able to the use it. >> russia has been deeply involved with the separatist movements. if russia is responsible, what options does the united states and the world have in terms of a response. >> well, there are plenty of options but we're not going to

use them. it's amusing to hear the president of the united states saying before this occurred that we were going to ratchet up the strictures on russia. the kinds of things we don't are not telling on the russian economy. and the europeans have fallen way behind and have very little interest in squeezing russia. so there are olots of options. this whole incident will wiped up -- it will disappear without a trace. >> really? >> i don't think there's going to be very much -- there's a lot internationally but nobody is willing to do anything against russia that will really paralyze them. >> thank you very much. they came from 12 countries and all walks of likes. grandparents and infants, scientists and students. just who were the victims of flight 17? answers ahead. yup. all five of you for $175.

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turning to the crisis in the middle east, israel's ground offensive entered its third day with no sign of slowing down. part of what the military is after lies under grouped. richard engel joins us from gaza city. with a good morning to you, richard. does it feel like it's quieting down or about to get worse? >> reporter: it does not feel like it is quieting down. it is actually now the second full day of the operation. tonight will be the third night. but there have been bombardments throughout the day, in the night. much happened north and east of here. this feels like it could be just beginning. thousands of israeli reinforcements have been deployed because they could be you've to expand israel's ongoing ground campaign. to or now israeli tanks and artillery haven't pushed deep

into the gaza strip. they stayed out of big urban areas. israel said it wants to destroy tunnels hamas uses to sneak from gaza to israel and attack israelis. but the israeli military is attacking buildings in tkpa swra city too. sometimes they will first fire a small bomb, a warning shot for people to evacuate. and then this. the bomb alert by bomb doesn't always work. and it isn't always used. more than 300 palestinian have been killed in the last two weeks. under fire in gaza, hamas is still firing rockets into israel, around 100 a day. but they are having little effect. israelis run to shelters. you most of the rockets fall in open areas or shot down by israeli defenses.

one israeli civilian was killed by a palestinian rocket. four others injured. it was a hit on a bedoin house, camp. he was an israeli civilian. two children injured, one quite seriously. in addition to the fatality by rocket, there was an attempt to tunnel into israel to attack israeli troops. the militants did manage to infiltrate into israel. two israeli soldiers were injured. one hamas militant killed, the others managed to escape. both of these incidents when taken together are the kind of thing that could convince i rail to escalate its offensive. >> yeah. given what the stated goals are, to eradicate the tunnels of which i have read 1,000 or so in number, is there any indication how long this could last? what will constitute success and

say, okay, do they have to get rid of all of them, the majority or is there a sense of that? >> there isn't really a sense of that. initially, israeli officials talked about two weeks. two weeks to go into these areas that are right along the gaza/israel border. to destroy the items they know about and look for tunnels they don't know about. by being on the ground they will be in a position to look for new tunnels. the question is, what these reinforcements doing on the border? why is benjamin netanyahu talking about expanding the offensive? today you have an israeli civilian killed by a rocket attack. that would be the second israeli killed since this conflict began about two weeks ago by palestinian rocket fire. so will they escalate beyond the mission? i think that's what a lot of people here in gaza are wondering right now.

>> all right. richard engel, thank you so much for that. the downing of flight 17, some were doing critical aids research. dr. nancy snyderman will tell us what a loss this is. spokesperson: you can get a $1,000 turbocharged

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crash site of mh-17. they have removed 38 bow, taking them to the rebel-held city of donetsk. they visited the crash site but only for an hour before they were told to leave. president obama is at camp david where he is monitoring the investigation. nbc's kristen welker is at the white house for us. what do you know about this call and the possibility of more sanctions? >> alex, good morning to you. according to the official readout from the white house, angela merkel discussed what additional actions might be required. in may manelee man's terms, we them start to build a case that

the plane was shot down by pro russian separatists who were using weaponry provided by russia. for a little bit of context, you will recall a day before that plane was shot down, president obama announced the stiffest round of sanctions yet against russia. but the eu did the not go as far. what we are starting to see now is convergence pressure on the eu to get to the same page with the u.s. if they feel as though additional sanctions are necessary. and what we could see, alex, if there is a russian link to all of this confirmed are some of the stiffest sanctions yet imposed both by the u.s. and by the eu. possibly those sanctions, the broadest sanctions that the u.s. would have at its disposal. white house officials say that is why there is so much focus right now on the investigation, on making sure that international investigators can access the crash site because they want to build a razor tight

case against vladimir putin, against russia. they don't want there to be any questions in the final analysis. you heard president obama over and over again call for an international investigation. take a listen to a little bit more of what he had to say yesterday. >> we know at least one american citizen was killed. our thoughts and prayers are with his family for terrible loss. this was a global tragedy. an asian airliner was destroyed in european skies killed with citizens from many countries. so there has to be a credible international investigation into what happened. >> so, alex you hear him putting the focus and emphasis on the fact that this is a global crisis. that is why an international investigation is so necessary. as you mentioned at the top, president obama is at camp david over the weekend. i am told he will be reaching

out to foreign counterparts as he continues to stay updated on this investigation. alex. >> thank you so much for that. >> thank you. >> the 298 people on board that flight came from 12 nations, the most from the netherlands with at least 192 dutch citizens. katie is there where the flight departed. katie, with a good morning. talk about how the community is dealing with this tragedy. >> well, it's been really hard for them. especially since a number of o dutch passengers just continues to rise. to put it in a little bit of perspective. in terms of loss of life compared to population size, this is on a similar scale. as you can imagine, the country is reeling. >> this is a nation in mourning. in one small community, shock and disbelief. this couple run a flower shop.

he posted a picture of the plane on facebook saying should it disappear, this is what it looks like. the couple's shop now a memorial. >> always laughing, always together. >> reporter: neighbors mourned. the victims were from around the world. quinn was a u.s. citizen, raised in the netherlands. his grandfather spoke about him. >> very sad yesterday. i can't believe it. >>reporter: this couple vacationing in amsterdam, flying home with their grandfather. their parents booked on a lighter flight. caley lost her stepdaughter and

her husband. 25-year-old carlynn keljzer was going for her degree in chemistry. and father of five. one of the top aids researchers in the word. >> this is an aoe advice raeugz of the scientific community that dedicated its life to hiv/aids. >> memories of a catastrophe made up of 300 individual tragedies. there's a lot of questions surrounding the remains, the bodies and just how and when family members will be able to get the remains of their loved ones, alex. >> katie, i remember in the wake of that here in income, it i was all people could talk about for some time. when you're not on camera with us, yu out in the community, same thing, it's all people are

talking about? >> reporter: i'm not going to say it's all people are talking about. because they are talking about the shock and the disbelief of something like this even happening, and the memory of their loved ones. but they are certainly concerned how they will be able to honor them, bury them, to go about any religious practices that need to be done. there's pressure now. there is pressure put on governments to get the bodies back. the malaysians have specifically said it is in humane to not let them pick up the remains. >> katie, thank you very much. . the crash investigation, how is the u.s. thousands of miles from the actual scene piecing together some of the most crucial clues in the investigation? that's next.

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investigators are hoping to return to the wreckage site in the rebel-controlled region in eastern ukraine. a group of officials were forced from that site after briefly coming to scene friday. and a team of special investigators have malaysia has arrived in kiev, ukraine. it includes forensic experts and military personnel. let me bring in counterterrorism and national security analyst. michael, with a good morning to you, let's talk about the reports of the missile used and the launcher to down this plane. it is likely back in russia now after it was imported in ukraine a few weeks ago. they are sending fbi and ntsb investigators to ukraine? how is the u.s. piecing together this investigation given the concerns in the region of safety? >> alex, the u.s. is really focused on two separate although

related pieces. the first is what's going on on the ground. some of it is relevant and important. it is important for ruling things out. most of what's going on can be done from a bit of distance. that involves overhead imagery, satellites, tracking weapons systems that have gone back and forth between russia and the ukraine. and also looking at signals intercepts of communications between the russians and ukrainians. and that second piece really is what is giving u.s. officials great confidence that what happened was this was shot down by a russian missile system provided to the ukrainian separatists. if both the pieces will put together. ultimately over the next days and weeks, they will have a very complete picture of what occurred in this tragedy. >> what i alluded to at the top, there are reports that the missile launcher itself that was used has turned around and gone

back into russia now, transported there. if that's true, how damning is that? >> sit seen as the getaway car, alex. it is often the case it gives us as much as an oversight. this was in the lead up the impetus of the heightened sanctions. seeing the getaway car going back to russia is another very strong indication potentially, if that video can be verified, that the russians have had a strong hand in this event. >> we're talking about the russians or separatists and the like. there was likely three or four individuals that had to be attached to the launcher to actually launch the missile. how do we find out those

individuals? >> that will be a real challenge. the piece that is muddiest for u.s. officials now is the stepbs of russian involvement in this particular operation and shootdown. that's going to be a very hard question to answer. ultimately in a larger policy sense i'm not sure how much it matters. but it is going to be difficult for us to figure that out. they obviously have to have some training from experience. we have to remember that many in ukrainian opposition were previously in ukrainian or russian military. these are not necessarily people picked up on the street and firing. these are potentially people with some military experience. >> michael, let's say there was a situation where military members, they follow orders. that's what they do. these separatists. say it is separatists responsible here. do they follow orders? if so, where are they coming from? >> well, the separatist movement

is relatively fractured. there are some elements with better command and control but it's a little bit rag tag here. and i think one of the reasons this military system likely did took down an airliner, it wasn't integrated into a larger integrated system that would get tips and cues from command and control. that's one of the reason it made the mistake, shooting down a civilian airliner when it hikely thought it was targeting a ukrainian military plane. >> is there a way to have evidence that we will find out there are other planes in the area and they mistook this one for the one they intended to target. >> we can certainly work with the aou crepe yanns to

understand what military they were flying at the time. i don't mean to suggest that it in any way excuses this tragedy. obviously operating these systems in this area, hitting that civilian aircraft, it is not just a tragedy. it is a real climb. >> that you know so much. >> it appears planes are definitely steering clear in donetsk, not too far from where mh-17 was shot down. what would the world do about it? that's next.

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growing confusion today over the flight data for mh-17. joining me now for more, former u.s. ambassador, mark ginsburg, also deputy senior adviser for policy to president jimmy carter. ambassador, thanks for joining me. >> hi, alex. >> we now know that at least one american citizen was killed. what should be the u.s. role in an investigation and any possible responses? >> well, the international aviation organization and the united states as well as other countries have an enormous responsibility to try to help we cover the bodies and they will consider the cream of the crop when it comes to aviation disasters. the international community will look to them. that's probably a hallmark of the expertise that the united

states has. secondly, alex, i just came from russia. one thing, it's important to remember how much putin has brainwashed his public. it's important to break that cycle by now bringing to the russian people some punishment for what their government may have been culpable of and that is in effect to tell putin that he's not going to be supported because of his activities. >> how do you even quantify that? >> hispanwell, that's hard, of . if in fact these missiles were provided by russia and russians were involved in training them, russia is going to have to be violated criminally. there's security council issues which, of course, the russian would wind up doing anyhow.

number one. number two, putin has to be put in the dock wet of world public opinion. he's the latest gadhafi here, if that turns out to be case, based on a comparable situation involving lockerbie. in the end, he has to be isolated as a result. remember, he was on the march, not only in crimea and ukraine but also in eastern europe. we have to use this incident as a way of rolling back his worst tendencies. the washington post, david ignatius says, "this nightmare incident could have a perverse benefit, if it leads russia to reconsider the consequences of its reckless campaign in ukraine. this incident illustrates the misinformation that can escalate

beyond that anyone desires. >> remember, as soon as this incident occurred, the russians launched their usual, the best defenses and absolute offense. this morning, the russian defense ministry began accusing the ukrainian government of culpability here in the attack. and the key here, of course, is all they are going to want to do now is to confuse the situation so as to avoid culpability. it's important for us to call him out. president obama started this on thursday. it's going to be interesting to see if whether the european union will be likely to impose more sanctions. >> what do you think is going to happen? >> i think the leaders are going

to have to do something. they can't sit here and pretend that money and gas from russia trumps everything else. >> master mark gins berg, thank you for joining me. >> sure. ahead, steve kornacki on "up." chronic plaque psoriasis was also on display, i'd had it. i finally had a serious talk with my dermatologist. this time, he prescribed humira-adalimumab. humira helps to clear the surface of my skin by actually working inside my body. in clinical trials, most adults with moderate to severe plaque psoriasis saw 75% skin clearance. and the majority of people were clear or almost clear in just 4 months. humira can lower your ability to fight infections, including tuberculosis. serious, sometimes fatal events, such as infections, lymphoma, or other types of cancer have happened. blood, liver and nervous system problems, serious allergic reactions,

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[ female announcer ] aaah, the amazing, delicious cinnamon and sugar taste of cinnamon toast crunch and cold milk. ♪ cinnamon toast crunch. crave those crazy squares. who is to blame for the downing of a civilian jetliner? good morning and thanks for getting up early with us today. these past 48 hours have put us at a point that is beyond description. we'll talk about that in a little bit. first, just a few hours earlier on thursday we learned that another malaysian airlines passenger jet had crashed and this time near the ukraine border with ru