[ female announcer ] aaah, the amazing, delicious cinnamon and sugar taste of cinnamon toast crunch and cold milk. ♪ cinnamon toast crunch. crave those crazy squares. who is to blame for the downing of a civilian jetliner? good morning and thanks for getting up early with us today. these past 48 hours have put us at a point that is beyond description. we'll talk about that in a little bit. first, just a few hours earlier on thursday we learned that another malaysian airlines passenger jet had crashed and this time near the ukraine border with russia.

after confusion, the u.s. said they believed that the plane was shut down by a surface-to-air missile. president obama stopped short of blaming russia directly but definitely pointed his finger in their direction. >> nearly 300 innocent lives were taken. men, women, children, infants who had nothing to do with the crisis in ukraine. their deaths are an outrage of unspeakable proportions. we also know that this is not the first time a plane has been shot down in eastern ukraine. over the last several weeks, russian-backed separatists have shut down a transport plane and ukrainian helicopter and they claimed responsibility for shooting down a ukraine fighter jet. moreover, we know that these separatists have received a steady flow of support from

russia. this includes arms and training. it includes heavy weapons. and it includes anti-aircraft weapons. >> now, the fbi says that two of its people will be training to ukraine overnight. one is an explosive expert and also an agent. putin says ukrainian bears the full responsibility for what happened. ukraine's crackdown on pro-russian separatists sparked this tragedy. we well, the government in ukraine released what it claims is intercepted audio between vasili

and igor bezler. here is. so of the audio that was released from "the new york times." >> a man identified as major who seems to be at the crash site identifies a man known as greek that militia shot down the aircraft. again, this recording has not been independently verified by nbc news.

>> from what we know about the investigation, we have michael weiss, editor-in-chief of "the interpreter" and bob hager who has been covering the aviation industry for more than three decades and michael leiter, a counterterrorism expert. bob, covering these crashes, you're familiar with aviation horror stories. but when you look at sort of the circumstantial evidence that obama laid out and then the government pointing its fingers at the ukraine government, how much doubt is there in your mind that there is a russian hand in this? >> i think there is very little doubt just by judging how positively our leaders have

spoken. but they say russian equipment requiring the russian expertise and some supervision. so we must have some pretty good evidence and it will be interesting to see if we make that public. presumably what we're talking about here, i'm imagining it's imagery from spy satellites, infrared kind of imagery that shows part of the trajectory and then the hit, when the missile hit the plane. >> "the new york times" is reporting today that it's another piece of potential evidence into russian's role. >> right. look, what is important to understand here, several things, the separatists took credit for downing what they say is a ukrainian cargo plane before they realized this was a civilian plane. igor bezler has been identified by the european union as a gru agent, an agent of russia's intelligent agency, a post to a

social media site in russia, we w warned them not to fly in our area. videos have been taken showing these buk anti-aircraft missiles moving around. russian state media put out a number of articles in russian recapitulating what the separatists said. they thought they hit a ukrainian cargo plane. when they discovered it was not that, they started to delete. the recording that you played with igor bezler, his voices very distinct and western intelligent officials were quoted as they believe that those leaked conversations were genuine. >> the ukraine government has put these out. obviously the ukraine government -- everybody has their own motives and incentive, but how much weight do you put

in those recordings? how much confidence do we have in them? >> i think they are fairly convincing. first, we have to remember, those were released a very short time after the plane was lost. so if they were made up by the ukrainians, that's a really capable propaganda machine. they ring very true in the sort of reporting and discussions and it's quite likely that these are exactly the communications that the ukraines would be intercepting. for all of those reasons combined, much of what michael and bob had noted, this is a very, very strong case. we don't know exactly who's at the controls but the idea that this was used by separatists is almost beyond a point of de deniable. >> what are the key elements of making that case beyond what

you're laying out right here? >> bob started going down that path. i think what we will see over the coming weeks is the reelects of the information that points in this direction. although some of this information is sensitive t. will not be too sensitive. it will be infrared technology on the rocket motor itself. satellite information moving from russia into ukraine and potentially back out. other radar tracks involving the missile system and potentially also signals intelligence of the radar that guided the missile. that, combined with other intercepts of communication, will start to paint a very full picture and other forensic data which investigators can collect on the ground if they get access to that. >> bob, let me ask you about that. there was a claim, i guess, by one of the separatists that they have the black box. >> the government is saying no so we don't no. take us to that scene what is

playing out there right now? >> first of all, it's the dignity issue of collecting the bodies. >> they are still there, right? >> protecting all of this and they have not moved and that, again, from a dignity standpoint is tragic. from an investigative standpoint, what you can learn on the scene is maybe minimal. it would be interesting to know, though. people looking at the wreckage, they could tell if indeed it was a missile that hit the plane. might be able to tell. might be able to see residue of explosives or might not. the key evidence is what we were talking about. whatever we have of satellite imagery. also, the black boxes, in the case of the russian shootdown of the korean airliner back in the 1980s, those recorders did go on for about a minute and 44 seconds after the plane was hit by the missile but they didn't

reveal anything that was vital information. the pilots weren't really aware of what had happened to the plane. so i'm imagining that these black boxes must have quit very shortly after the plane was hit. >> there are all of these reports about how difficult the separatists are making this for investigators, reports of even gunfire yesterday. it almost doesn't matter from an investigative standpoint. >> the president said yesterday, we need an international independent investigation to look into it and forensic details. i honestly think this is a fantasy at this point. there have been reports that the separatists were looting the personal belongings of the victims. they were removing bodies. there were credit cards of the victims being used by locals in that area, allegedly, again. we can't confirm this. but i think, look, whatever the situation is, absolutely the separatists are trying to keep people away from this crash site and enough time has gone by that

smoking gun, pieces of evidence will probably be erased or hidden in some capacity. >> and michael leiter, what do you think is the time frame here? when president obama says, not only do we suspect what happened, here is what happened? >> i think there's probably another 48 hours of analysis of information to really draw a firm conclusion and then over the coming week to ten days, a lot of that information will be released officially by the government. a lot of the intelligence focus now is what is vladimir putin thinking and is this an actual opportunity to de-escalate rather than see a further escalation of problems between the u.s. and russia. >> michael weiss, thank you, bob, michael. we are learning more about the victims on mh-17.

one of the 15 malaysian crew members working the flight is being mourned by his 43-year-old wife and 10-year-old son. four months ago, his wife was scheduled to be working aboard flight 370 but she swapped shifts with a colleague. this time the family wasn't as lucky. 298 people in all were killed from the crash. back with more on the crash.

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just after she spoke to a special session of the u.n. security council on friday, u.n. ambassador samantha powers sent out this tweet. russian-backed separatists attacks versus sue vain.

6/13 downed tans port plane. 6/24, downed helicopter. there was another downed aircraft episode that's been on a lot of people's minds this past week. one with some erie perils to the story we're now following. back in 1983, at the height of the cold war. >> i'm roger mudd, nbc news, washington. the united states today accused the soviet union of shooting down a korean airlines jumbo jet carrying 269, including a congressman and perhaps 30 other americans. there are not thought to be any survivors. the airline was on a flight from anchorage, alaska, to seoul, south korea. the plane wandered off course

and wandered into soviet air space. >> it was blown out of the sky at a high altitude much like mh-17 and in 1978, two soviet fighter jets intercepted a plane and fired the plane after the pilot did not respond and was forced to make an emergency landing. two passengers were killed in that incident. in 1988, there was also another incident, a u.s. aircraft carrier shot down by an iran passenger jet. >> we are following developments in the gulf. it's been a major tragedy and perhaps a mistake. it involves an iran airbus, a wide body jumbo jet with 290 people on board flying from the coast of iran to dubai. it crashed into the gulf. all 290 people on that plane are believed to have been killed. the iranian government -- they are saying it was shot down by

u.s. forces in the gulf. >> a shootdown of a civilian airliner. the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff announced the accident. in a statement released by the white house, president reagan expressed regret and was deeply saddened over a terrible human tragedy. >> what happens next diplomatically will have far-reaching diplomatic consequences moving forward. here to discuss this path forward, retired colonel jack jacobs, bob hager who has reported from the scene of many crashes, including twa and pan am. and greg at npr, a reporter for the a.p. during the shooting of that korean airliner in 1983. greg, i'll start with you. you covered that back in 1983.

do you see parallels between that story and this one? >> certainly all of the confusion, the myths and fog of what happened initially. i was in washington, a freshly minted a.p. reporter. we got word that this korean flight was missing and that congressman larry mcdonald was on it. i called several times and spoke to his aid and then had been called later that night. there were no hoards of cameras. i was standing alone in a darkened pentagon parking lot waiting for him to emerge. he finally came out and not only him but he was with his son who was about 12 and his son, his eyes were very red, he had been crying so i knew this was bad news. we had sort of been under the impression, given by the koreans, that the russians, the soviets had forced the plane to land. but he wouldn't tell me

anything. he was very poker faced. i went to bed that night not knowing what had happened. it was only the next morning that we learned that it had been shot down. a very stunning and unexpected turn. >> bob, you were telling this story in here yesterday. but the status of the black boxes, they sat in an office for years. >> the russians were not anxious for the west to have their hands on these black boxes because they would show that before the plane was hit by the missile, the korean pilots had no idea that they were off course, they were innocently in the soviet air space. the black boxes are known to be about 500 feet down under the water off the far eastern shores of the soviet -- the stretch of the soviet union.

at one point there were 34 russian ships and the south koreans were there, the japanese, they were hunting for weeks, banging into one another and the soviets put a fake pinger noise down there to mislead the american searchers, searching in the wrong place. and finally, the russians, we only learned later after the breakup of the soviet union, the russians did find the boxes about a month and a half after the crash, spirited them back to moscow and the world didn't know about the boxes until ten years later when the soviet union broke up. >> vladimir putin, kgb in 1983, we don't know where he was in the hierarchy at that time but do you think there is a similar approach with this?

>> the aircraft came down while controlled by separatists who were russian separatists in ukraine, it's outside russia. russia actually has people on the ground. russian equivalent of russian forces, who may or may not have been involved in this particular incident. it's clear that the black boxes have been removed, probably never to surface again. the parallels are -- the russians are never forthcoming, whether it's in the soviet era or now, russia hasn't changed in a thousand years in any case. don't expect the black boxes to pop up any time soon and in that regard it's the same as it was back then. >> greg, let me ask you, too, about the other incident, the downing of the iran air flight from -- the response to that, coming to grips with that, that

this was a united states' aircraft carrier that caused this, how did the government respond in the moment back then and how did they prevent that from turning into anything bigger than it became? >> the u.s. did acknowledge that it was involved but george bush, the father, vice president at the time, later went to the united nations and said it was irresponsible for iran to be flying a civilian jet over an area where shooting was going on. the u.s. never formerly apologized or said it was sorry. it did ultimately pay out $61 million to iran. but it was a very awkward situation for the u.s., certainly. >> did you cover that one, bob? >> yes, a little bit. there is an awful bit of video from the -- the navy made themselves on the flight desk on the plane that shot down the iranian airbus. our sailors are celebrating

because they think they've made a kill of a fighter plane only to learn that it was a civilian airline. >> that's the conflict here. in '83, there were spy planes that had been in the area, the russians clearly thought they were going after a spy plane. it being looks, as we were talking in the first segment, it being looks right now like you have the history of all of these military cargo planes being shot down in the last few months in ukraine, they probably thought they were getting another one of those. >> you would think after 25 years of technological development we'd have a better handle of who is a bad guy and who is a good guy and indeed who is an iff system identified friend or foe system built into all of these missile systems. >> so that would have been built in? >> for the sa-11, i think it's an outboard system but it's got to be known how to operate it and how to read it and that's probably not the case in this -- >> i wonder if that doesn't go

up the question into how high up the chain of command this is being supervised? >> because they would have more sophisticated knowledge? >> to know that this was a civilian airliner and not an army plane. >> i'm not trying to let these guys off the hook, it's a bit like giving a loaded pistol to a 5-year-old. he knows how to pull a trigger but that's all he knows. you need technological training in order to operate this particular system and you don't need -- >> there's also -- we talk about this in the first segment. the recordings that you ukraine government has put out, at the very end of it, as these voices are recognizing that this was a civilian plane, not a military plane, one of the voices says, they are shocked and they say, whatever was it doing in the air space? why was it here? that's a question that a lot of people have. >> it's almost naive, that recording. so clearly they are shocked.

>> to the extent that that's authentic, they say anything in the sky has to be military because there's no way that a jet would be flying through here. >> bob hager and jack jacobs, appreciate it. cracking what the kremlin might be thinking in all of this, that's next. lot in return with ink plus from chase. like 50,000 bonus points when i spent $5,000 in the first 3 months after i opened my account. and i earn 5 times the rewards on internet, phone services and at office supply stores. with ink plus i can choose how to redeem my points. travel, gift cards, even cash back. and my rewards points won't expire. so you can make owning a business even more rewarding. ink from chase. so you can. can you fix it, dad? yeah, i can fix that. (dad) i wanted a car that could handle anything.

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so at this time, it appears that separatists are responsible for the downing of mh-17. >> we know that they are heavily armed and that they are trained and we know that that's not an accident. that is happening because of russian support. if mr. putin makes a decision that we are not going to allow heavy armaments and the flow of fighters into ukraine across the ukrainian/russian border, then

it won't stop. >> putin seeming less than contrite. he said that ukraine stoked the violence that led to the crash. "i would like to point out in this regard, this tragedy would not have occurred if there was peace in that land. hostilities have not resumed in the southeast of ukraine. a without question, the state over whose territory this took place, bears responsibility for this awful tragedy." >> do the people of russia agree with that statement? >> putin has been playing double games since the beginning of this conflict back in february. he portrays himself as a peacemaker, a leader who has best interests at heart but he's

pursing his own interests, trying to destabilize ukraine so that when ukraine enters the european sphere officially, europe only gets to bail out a basket case, if you will. put putin is extremely clever. he has not said that they are not responsible but he focuses on ukraine's government and he's done this from the very beginning. he said that kiev started the revolution, the civil war, is responsible for this tragedy as well. that said, putin must know what has really happened to that flight. he knows about international public opinion now skewering him. he's really facing a huge dilemma. he either doubles down and risks major sanctions that could hurt him and russia or cuts the ropes

between him and the separatists. for now, the kremlin has been quiet. it's saying that no one knows what happened. they are going to wait and see and this is really reflected in the streets here as well. steve? >> jim maceda in moscow, appreciate that. for more now on vladimir put continue and the united states, we return to julia ioffe. you're our go-to person for information about putin. i saw this poll yesterday, too. 83% approval rating in russia for vladimir putin. that puts him at the highest rating since 2008. it seems like every time there's a confrontation like this with the west, by not acknowledging anything, he only gets stronger at home. when you start talking about sanctions and the response that the west can make, is there any leverage that the west has at all here?

>> that's the thing. i'm not sure what the west can really do at this point other than ramping up sanctions. maybe europe will be more on board given that a bunch of eu -- several hundred eu citizens have died. but he's also shown that he's willing to tolerate a certain amount of economic pain for what he perceives for a geopolitical gain or what he perceives to be a geopolitical gain. when the sanctions were first rolled out and crimea was annexed, one of his deputy prime ministers, who is responsible for the aerospace industry said, you know what, we're going to go to the moon next, we're going to get a foothold on the moon and the russians don't mind. they are willing to tolerate pain for greater causes. >> besides there is so much sort of wounded russian pride in the '90s, the breakup of the soviet union, the sort of economic

problems that they had and part of the approval rating for putin has been restoring that sense of strength and might and pride. he's able to get crimea a few months ago. it's an important symbolic thing, i can see, and i suppose little slices of eastern ukraine would be, too. a lot of the fear that i'm hearing, sort of domestically in the united states against putin, his ambitions are much more expansive than that. is that your sense or is it more of the piecemeal? >> i think it's more piecemeal. all of the people in the u.s. who praised putin's brilliance, they are kind of missing the point. he's a terrible strategist. he doesn't think more than a couple steps down the road and tends to paint himself in the corners and become hostage to situations that he creates, as we're seeing right now. he folmented this crisis in the

east. now he's on the hook for something horrible that they have done. i'm sure he knows it. one of the reasons that we're seeing this bravado is he doesn't know what to do. classic putin in a situation like this, when there's a lot of pressure, is to bluster back and slowly, slowly walk it back but only when attention has shifted away from him. he never wants to seem that he's buckling from under pressure, especially with what the west wants him to do. >> do you think this will just go away, that europe doesn't eventually have the stomach because of the ties to russia, their dependence on russia, he can bluster it out and it will go away? >> he likes to wait it out. he probably thinks he can wait it out and then maybe cut ties with these guys, take them down, punish them for what they've done but he certainly won't do it because the west expects him to did. >> he wants to do it on his own

terms? >> exactly. >> julia ioffe, thank you. we'll go live to the ground war in gaza. that's next. today his doctor has him on a bayer aspirin regimen to help reduce the risk of another one. if you've had a heart attack be sure to talk to your doctor before you begin an aspirin regimen. if your denture moves, it can irritate your gums. try fixodent plus gum care. it helps stop denture movement and prevents gum irritation. fixodent. and forget it.

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now try popped in white cheddar and sweet and salty. as we continue to follow the investigation in ukraine, we're also staying on top of the latest developments in gaza. this is now the second full day of the ground offensive launched by israel into the palestinian territory. many civilians have also been killed. more than 300 palestinians so far. among them, four young boys who had been playing soccer on a beach. >> reporter: an israeli shell smashing into a gaza city port. it was broad daylight. there was no warning. it wasn't the precision war israel says it's fighting. a group of boys, cows ins, playing on the beach, now running for their lives. until seconds later, another shell hit. israel claimed it was firing at

hamas militants at the port, but the dead were four young boys. several others from the same extended family were wounded, including this boy. he managed to crawl up the beach to a nearby hotel. medics rushed the boys to a hospital. parents started to arriving. unsure what happened but expecting the worst a mother asked, where is my son? where is my love? then, her worst fears came true. pray for your son, pray for your son, a relative told her, is now a martyr. >> today, u.n. secretary general ban ki-moon will travel to israel. israel has attacked several

targets since midnight. a hospital was destroyed in the gaza strip as militants fired more than 300 rockets at israel. most have been shot down by israel's new defense system. joining me from gaza is richard engel. are you saying any sign that israel's defensive is about to intensify even more? >> reporter: we are seeing some signs and we are hearing indications when you listen to israeli officials. there have been reinforcements, thousands of them sent to the edges of gaza, extra military hardware, extra troops. also, the israeli prime minister, benjamin netanyahu, says his cabinet has approved of a significant expansion of the operation and then a military commander said earlier today and

then today, a second israeli has been killed by palestinian rocket fire from the gaza strip in addition to the israeli, four others were injured. hamas has also tried to stage several attacks using those tunnels that the infiltration tunnel and two israeli soldiers were injured today. the casualties, it's possible that israel could escalate this further. but driving deeper has caused problems on both sides. >> what is the end game for israel? it's been almost a decade since israel stopped the official occupation into gaza. is it in and out? what is the goal here? >> well, it's -- that is the fundamental question and when you define end game, how far are we talking about? the immediate goal that israel

talks about is destroying the tunnels which are around the perimeter of the gaza strip. that obviously is not a long-term solution. that doesn't mean the end of hamas, that doesn't mean the end of the larger problem here, that you have 2 million palestinians that are a captive population. the economy here is bankrupt. the government, which is hamas, is bankrupt. palestinians cannot leave. there is a feeling of hopelessness or desperation. so eliminating the tunnels, that would be a short-term security benefit for israel but it doesn't solve the longer term problem of gasparino gla. so what is the end game? for the next few weeks, it's probably the tunnels. after that, we're not hearing anything. >> richard engel, appreciate the time this morning and the insight there. as long as the operations limited, president obama supports the operation. >> although we support military efforts by the israelis to make sure that rockets are not being fired into their territory, we

also have said that our understanding is that the current military ground operations are designed to deal with the tunnels and we are hopeful that israel will continue to approach this process in a way that minutizes civilian casualties. >> joining me is steve clemens and congressman bernie frank. the question raised by many americans. if the short-term goal is to get the tunnels, longer term, when you look at the third or fourth time in the last ten years that something like this has erupted, is this getting anywhere long term in terms of peace? >> no. that doesn't make it valueless. if you're being attacked by

hostile people who believe a member of hamas, unlike the palestinian authority should be in a israel, if they are attacking you, i wouldn't denigrate the process. hamas has still said that they are not interested in a longer term peace. so obviously the long-term answer would be a peace settlement. this is not happening in the west bank because the palestinians who don't fire into israel. >> hamas controls the west bank and gaza controls israel. when you look at a model in the

west bank that's going to take people in gaza and say, hey, that's what we want. we don't want the reality of hamas. we want the reality of the west bank, has israel dropped the ball with respect to the peace process? >> in my view, benjamin netanyahu is the worst prime minister that israel has had in terms of the long-term security interests relating to short-term security interests. hamas was failing. and then in the eyes of palestinians both in the west bank and gaza, israel has failed to be a reliable process for peace. remember, terrorists sit on stages trying to look legitimate in the eyes of public and rather than seducing the audience, israel is trying to kill the actors. >> wait. we're going to squeeze a break in. we'll get to that. tay at rest...

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all right. we'll specific pick it up right where we left off. >> i think it's simply wrong and irresponsible. you talk about israel saying let's make the west bank look good. to an extent, they have done that. i think the settlement policy has been wrong in a lot of ways but life in the west bank has gone on much more normally and the problem here -- first, israel voluntarily withdraws and then there's a military struggle in gaza. >> there was a withdrawal in 2005 and elections were held -- >> which george bush said was --

>> what happened was, yes, there were re-elections and there was abbas who was elected and then a parliament that abbas demonstrated and then there was a physical fight without israel being involved and without israel harming anybody and hamas, the side of the palestinians that think it should not exist and no interest in a peace process physically expels. there was the west bank where there was difficulties and then you have gaza running hamas. that's a large part of the problem. i have to ask people, if you're critical of what israel is doing, what should they do? given that we don't now have peace and hamas runs gaza and they start sending in rockets, what should israel have done? >> wait. the issue that was being raised was a broader one. >> i understand that. but i'm raising the issue that i want to raise.

are you saying, i can only be on your show and -- >> barney, what aspirational tract -- i would go to ramala and ask them how they feel about living under the kind of institutionalized -- the west bank, which gazans are watching as well. you have hamas completing against fatah and hamas competing against jihad. hamas has gone up and down terrorism based on what they thought were prospects. and the question is, barney called me he irresponsible in this. the question s. whis, what is t track that comes along with this. military action that kills children, 319 people, the vast majority who are innocent, that has destroyed 20,000 homes, so more than ten homes per missile fired by hamas, is that large footprint one that causes

deliverables? my answer is no. that is the failure of iron fist retaliatory military strategies. >> please, don't pretend neutrality. i get a chance to talk. >> you accused me of something and i'm going to defend my objectivity in this before i let you talk. you say that i'm gaining up on you and i'm not. i'm trying to ask about the west bank in addition to gaza. that's the only question. i'll let you respond to steve clemons. >> it's called asking a critical question. >> i'm sorry. can we get a -- can i have -- >> don't accuse me of that. >> can i get a breakdown of how much time i'm getting here? >> i'm going to defend myself if you criticize me. go ahead. >> you defend yourself and -- >> no, i'm not -- >> do i get a chance to talk

here? this is ridiculous. here's the question that you two are ducking. there were problems in afghanistan with our responding to nine ne9/11. there were always innocent people. but my question is this, given that hamas is there and ware not close to a peace process yet and egypt had a cease-fire and they said no, what do you both, each of you, what should israel have done? going to ramala and doing a poll would be one thing. but the situation in which they are going through the tunnels and sending rockets in, what do you think the short-term response from israel should have been? >> i think they should have gone after those issues in a surgical way. i think they should have gone overboard in pro equitecting chn and civilians and regardless of what they saw about rockets being stored, you have the u.n.

in there doing inspections, i would have made a war room around the question of, how do we protect those that are not part of the evidence? i support israel's right of defense, not to create massive, innocent casualties. >> last word here. >> yes. so you agree if israel has a legitimate right to physically attack and have a military attack in gaza, you're critical that it's not being done physically surgically. the problem is, physical strikes as we've seen other where, but i think we agree that israel has a right to respond to the military strikes by hamas and the other question is, have they done a good job of confining them. we'll have more news right after this. copd includes chronic bronchitis and emphysema. spiriva is a once-daily inhaled... ...copd maintenance treatment... ...that helps open my airways for a full 24 hours.

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of "up" with the plane crash that happened in ukraine. the u.s. says it was leakly brought down by a surface-to-air missile. the crash site is not being treated the way it normally should be treated. a team of independent national monitors say that their efforts to get to the crash site have been blocked by gunmen firing warning shots into the air. the separatists are thought to have taken the black boxes. our malaysian government source says there is growing concern that the bodies on board are not being recovered. this is an instagram video of the passengers on the plane before takeoff. iphones and books are strewn around the wreckage.

many were from netherlands to kuala lumpur and others were from the uk, germany, indonesia, belgium, philippines, canada, and new zealand. president obama said the deaths are, quote, an outrage of unspeakable proportions and at least one american is known to have been on board. >> we know at least one american citizen, quinn lucas shotsman was killed. our thoughts and prayers are with the family for their terrible loss. yesterday i spoke with ukraine, netherlands and the american people stand with them during this difficult time. >> the plane was traveling over a designated flight path. the air space was still opened, despite the conflict raging below. in april, the faa prohibited american planes from flying over

the crimean region nearby. on the scene is keir simmons. >> reporter: the ukrainian government is accusing the militia here in donetsk of destroying evidence of international crimes. but, of course, most of the relatives of those on board flight mh-17 will be simply, first and foremost, worried whether or not they can get the bodies of their relatives back. and even that is proving difficult at the crash site still smoldering. the bodies of passengers are still lying presumably where they fell on the ground. we have even heard from one militia leader who says he cannot discount a report in the ukrainian media suggesting that credit cards of some of the victims may have been used by local people. he says the area is so wide, he can't say whether or not that will have happened or hasn't happened.

it gives you a sense of how badly sealed off, cordoned off this area is. again, today, international investigators say they have not been given full access to the site by those militia guarding the area. presumably, the body best in position to try to coordinate this is the ukrainian government. of course, the militia are fighting the ukrainian government so that seems extremely unlikely. meanwhile, the militia is saying that it's taking too long for international investigators to get here. that's why they say there's a delay in the inquiry. back to you. >> now to nbc's kirsten well customer live at the white house. do we know what the steps are that the white house may be taking now? >> reporter: good morning. we know that president obama spoke to a number of leaders last night, including angela merkel. they are discussing the possibility of additions sanctions if it is confirmed

that there is a russian link here. of course, you heard yesterday, president obama, u.s. ambassador to the u.n. samantha powers starts to build the case that russian-backed rebels are responsible for shooting down that plane. that is it significant because just this past week you heard president obama announce the stiffest round of sanctions yet against russia. if it is confirmed that these russian-backed rebels using russian artillery shot down this plane, you are going to see the u.s. and eu really converge and get on the same page in terms of sanctions. so far we've seen the united states go much further in terms of sanctions than the eu. what we could see is the two really getting on the same page, and that was potentially part of that discussion last night that president obama had last night with angela merkel about enacting stiffer sanctions, and the broadest, stiffest, toughest sanctions that can be lev levie.

that's why you're seeing so much investigation. the u.s. says it's critical that the crash site is not contaminated. it's critical that there's an international investigation into this because they want to build a rock-solid case against russia so they can move forward with sanctions without question with the united front with the eu. steve, back to you. >> thanks a lot for that, kirsten. john mccain believes that the u.s. needs to give weapons and other military assistance. he said that the evidence suggests that russian president vladimir putin is largely to blame for what happened. >> it has the earmarks of a tragic mistake of someone who had the capability to shoot down an aircraft and we know, at least from the last few couple of weeks, that that could be

russian separatists or russian capability. for more on the u.s. diplomatic response, let's turn to u.s. congressman charlie dent of pennsylvania. i'm joined again here in new york by former massachusetts congressman, barney frank, a democrat, and joan walsh, editor at large. charlie dent, i'll start with you in terms of, what is it that -- what do you make of the president's response? are you satisfied of his response and what do you want to see him do in the weeks ahead? >> steve, thanks for having me on the show. thus far, i think the administration is trying to do the right things, trying to conduct an investigation, basically holding vladimir putin accountable for this act of barbaricism. there's no doubt that they

thought down this aircraft, that the separatists have been enabled by the putin government and it's very clear to me, we know who has dirty hands, bloody hands in this case. it's important for the administration to ratchet up sanctions further, as they have been trying to do. hopefully this is a game-changing event. we need our european friends, particularly the german, french, and british, to engage in morrow bust sanctions regime. the administration has been constrained in part based on the europeans not going forward with sanctions. now i think we can further separate vladimir putin. sdplt case seems to be aimed at europe. basically, get europe on board because of the economic ties to russia. >> let me say hello to my former congressman charlie dent and thank him for general responsible bipartisanship.

in contrast, john mccain and others, there is a desire to somehow hold responsible for everything that goes wrong in the world. the right used to say that the left were to blame america and now it's the conservatives. when anything bad goes on in the world, they wonder why obama didn't do anything to stop it. president obama specifically and america have been in the lead. by the way, they have american allies. the position that they are taking, it would be bad for business if we got tough with putin. they have support here, by the way, from the chamber of commercial from the united states and the national association manufacturers. people understand that the leaning representatives of business in america have been trying to hold back and the russians pay attention. they read the american -- they watch the american media. yes, obama has been doing the right thing and charlie's exactly right. it should be very hard for the europeans to hold back, especially as people have

noticed, it's the founding member of the union, the netherlands, which has been a huge victim of this because of the population. >> i want to bring you here in a second, joan, but congressman dent, to the point that charlie was just raising, that sentiment that we heard john mccain express and we've heard similar sentiments being raised, how wide is that, talking to your colleagues, how widespread is that sentiment, that sort of hawkish response to seemingly everything? >> well, i think on the republican side there's a general sense that main the obama administration on many foreign policy issues has been a bit more disengaged than it should be. on this issue, the response of malaysian airlines, so far i think the administration has done the right thing. i think the administration has gone further in the sanctions

regime. but for the united states and european union to much more more aggressively together and advancing the transatlantic trade agreement. we need to bring europe and the u.s. together economically. we need to align ourselves floor. it will help our security interests to do so. if i were the president, there's an opportunity for bipartisanship. i believe we should move forward on that trade agreement to accelerate this agreement in response, in part to what has been happening in ukraine and particularly with respect to russia's and putin's adventurism and aggression. >> joan, just in terms of the political response that we've seen so far, when you have the john mccain clip and he says this all the time, i wonder what audience he's aiming for in that. in a way, there's a fight going on within the republican party,

where there's the john mccain ring against -- mccain has to prove that this is sort of the default position. >> yeah, but i don't really know who is he talking to because the american people are not really looking for greater military engagement in the ukraine or in any of the upteem countries that mccain has suggested that we go into. this is a matter of diplomacy right now and there is an opportunity here to get the european more involved, given that the majority of people who died in this tragedy are europeans. i think the president has done a great job and will continue to push thoon front. >> i completely agree. but let me give a specific answer to questions, if i can do that. obama is talking to lindsey graham and dick cheney. it's a shrinking circle of people who take this view that america has somehow the responsibility and the capacity

to bring order anywhere in the world. i should note that these are also deficit holds. one thing i want to ask them, how much is this going to cost and what are you going to take it out of? and i think joan is right. the american people have an understanding of what our legitimate needs are but what our capacity is. this is europe. you guys made a great map of the flight path. i have to disagree with my former colleague and friend, charlie, on the transatlantic trade agreement. charlie doesn't mean it this way but it has the aura of let's see if we can persuade the europeans of giving sanctions based on if we can get a trade agreement going. until we get a better set of economic policies nationally in which the benefits of trade are more equally distributed and the costs of trade of the job loss

are dealt with, i'm not refuting that. i don't think we should take this economic issue -- the european shouldn't need this in order for their own self-interests to do this. this is part of the problem, by the way, some of the americans encourage the criticism by obama. western europe has hidden behind america and, to some extent, they want to eat it, too. they want obama to be the leader of the world but then get economic business to do that. they say we're equal partners in this and you have as much responsibility as we do given that it's your continent. >> congressman dent, how much of the culture of the party has changed? in your conversations with republicans do, they hit the pause button and say, we don't

want another iraq here, let's not do this? >> well, with respect to, i think the republican view on foreign policy generally, i think most republicans do not want to ascribe to the school of interventionism willy-nilly. i think most republicans want us to be very much engaged in these matters. with respect to what is happening in ukraine, i don't think there's any republican who believes that there should be american boots on the ground, so to speak. we understand, though, that we have some responsibilities. i will say on an issue like ukraine, i have never supported putting ukraine in nato because i don't think there's an appetite for the american people or europe to engage russia militarily over ukraine. now, that said, i believe that the americans, republicans, all of us, democrats, we believe that -- we should insist upon a territorily safe ukraine, whether it's with europe or

russia, just as finland does or a member of the eu, they have relations with russia, why should ukraine not be allowed that same opportunity? so i would say that republicans generally want to be more cautious about military interventions but, at the same time, one is very much engaged in these problems and i think many of my colleagues do feel that, particularly in the middle east right now, the administration has been disengaged. we saw what happened in syria. i would never advocate military intervention in syria. we essentially -- a vacuum was created, outsourced the army of the rebels, turks, saudis, a fiasco in syria was has spilled into iraq. i think the administration has been too disengaged in too many parts of the world. it's great to be on the show with congressman frank and i hope he's enjoying retirement. >> i'm glad we could reunite you two. congressman charlie dent from

pennsylvania and barney frank, thank you. up next, the crisis at the border and what, if anything, will be done about it. so what's this?

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this morning, we're also staying on top of the latest developments in the fight of immigration concern. the white house says that president obama will meet with the leaders of honduras, el salvador, and guatemala to discuss the problem at the border. summer recess starts next month. in september, when congress returns, it will be the added variable of the upcoming elections. obama has asked for money to help for detention facilities to provide more housing for the undocumented minors who have reached the u.s. it would also help to hire more

judges for the immigration concern and the 2008 law to make it easier to return those kids to their countries. nancy pelosi said she might support that gop plan. that changed on wednesday, the same day as the hispanic congression congressional caucus met at the white house. the chc said they would not support any changes made to the law. nancy pelosi told "the new york times," quote, i think the bill introduced is the exactly the wrong way to go. it's the only immigration bill we're going to have, one that hurts children. 1 in 50,000 children have crossed into the country in recent months. 17% of americans say the border crisis is the country's single biggest problem, up from just 5% a month ago. what will congress do? will congress do anything at all to address that crisis? some americans believe it's the nation's biggest crisis. here now to discuss it is

congressman of the hispanic caucus. congressman, i appreciate you taking the time this morning. i would start by getting clarity about the meeting you had with the president this week. nancy pelosi talked about an openness to change the 2008 law and then backtracked on it. the white house suggested that it was open to changing the 2008 law. your understanding after meeting with the president, is that something that is on the table with them? >> i think with the administration, i think secretary johnson and the press secretary for obama have worked flexibility and i felt the position of the hispanic caucus was, this law is dismantled and we won't be able to support a transition and the president made no commitment about what

position down the road he would take on that issue. we stated our position and then also talked about potential exhib executive issues about what is going on. >> we've gone from talking about comprehensive immigration reform and then the specific crisis of the refugees. so that $3.7 million, in the republican's mind, has been attached to changing the 2008 law. could, given the reality of the republicans controlling the house right now, could it pass with -- and get the republican support it needs without changing the law. is that realistic? >> yeah. i think it could pass. i also believe, though, that we're not talking about immigration reform. we're talking about a supplemental proposed by the president to deal with the humanitarian crisis that we have before us with the children and the unaccompanied minors and to

effectuate the law in place, to due process. this is not immigration reform in any way you could define it as that. it's responding to a crisis. immigration reform is something that the house leadership, boehner in particular, has failed to bring to the forth. >> i'm curious, too, for your thoughts on this. when you look at the humanitarian nature of the crisis, i think most americans, their hearts go out to these kids and a lot of americans want to find ways to take care of them if there's families here to reunite them, refugees, who if they are sent home, are sent home in dire circumstances. i wonder how you bounce that instinct with what messages it might send to others, given how harrowing the journey is to get here, how many will die to get here. the more accommodating we are to them right now, does that not

then encourage more to make that journey and with tragic consequences? >> yeah. somebody described, are you making the welcome too easy? and that will spur additional migrant children to go to the country. i think you reeffectuate this law and due process and you want to expedite not every child that is coming, not every unaccompanied minor will qualify. those will be dealt with reintegration back to their country. those that do have, under the law and a history in this country, will have that opportunity. it's about expediting and we can't expedite without the resource, bottom line. what the republicans are going to do is probably do an enforcement only supplemental, change or dismantle the law and then make deportation and

removal expedited by the simple process that you eliminated the due process in the law. that's their way of dealing with it. and i think something's going to happen before the break because, quite frankly, this is now a major political iron and you want to go back to your district. certainly the republicans and democrats that are going to support it, will talk about the border security and in reality you did nothing. >> we will see what happens with the 3.7 billion proposal. i want to thank you from arizona. appreciate the time. coming up next, the latest from gaza. still ahead, we travel to the biggest gathering of progressive activists to find out who is firing up the liberal base of the party. stay with us. if you wear a denture, touch it with your tongue.

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israel says it has encountered little resistance on the ground so far. 20 hamas militants have been killed. hamas is still firing rockets into israel. about 100 of them every day. most of them have been shot down by israeli defenders. we'll be back with more news right after this. they're like music to your nose! ♪ your love... ♪ ♪ love keeps lifting me... ♪

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♪ and they all went marching, marching in two by two ♪ ♪ [ male announcer ] the nissan pathfinder, with intuitive four-wheel drive. an adventure worth sharing. nissan. innovation that excites. this morning, 3,000 of the most influential progressive activists are wrapping up their session to bring the party forward in a post-obama era that is fast approaching. elizabeth warren brought a crowd to their feet with her trademark populous message. >> we know that our lives improve when we care for our neighbors and we help build a future. not just for some of our kids but for all of our kids.

that's what we believe. these are progressive ideas. these are progressive values. these are america's values. and these are the values we are willing to fight for. >> she was speaking at the annual conference being held in detroit -- or was being held in detroit. vice president joe biden was also there and used his chance to emphasize his long-term commitment to equal rights. >> no one should ever have a right to dismiss somebody because of their sexual orientation. it just should not exist. it also includes the basic proposition that my daughter and my four granddaughters are guaranteed every single opportunity my sons and grandsons have because they are capable of whatever my sons and

grandsons can do. >> but there's one democrat who was conspicuously absent, hillary clinton, who is on her book tour and declined the chance to address the progressive audience. she's received a cool reception because of her situation with bloggers over the situation in the iraq war. in 2007, she was booed at net roots over her ties to interest interests money. the new republic puts it, hillary clinton is winning over the left. she's performing better among liberals than moderate and conservative democrats. her favorable rating is at 90%, ten points higher than in the summ summer 2008. in a new marist poll, she's ahead of vice president joe biden by a whopping 50 points. 70 to 20. you can see it there.

where is the soul of the democratic movement right now? we sent our reporter perry baker there to file this original msnbc report. >> reporter: who is your dream candidate for 2016? >> hillary clinton. and it's historical. >> i voted for hillary clinton in 2008. i don't hate her. >> i'm prepared and resigned to hillary clinton to be our next president. i think she'll be excellent at being president but i'm not particularly excited about her being president. >> she's not progressive. we all know that. we know where she is on her issues. we also know her baggage. there's nothing on the right that can dig up what we don't already know. she has the balls to fight back. quite frankly, that goes with me. >> at the moment, i'm going for elizabeth warren, although i'd like to see her in the senate forever. >> elizabeth warren is the most

exciting possibility. she's been working for the middle-class people. >> if i were joe rand, i'd be excited about that. >> i think he's more progressive and candid than hillary. >> i voted for him every time. he was the one i loved. but it's real sad. i hope he can be a secretary of state or something. >> all right. and here now, fresh from that report in detroit, is nbc news political reporter perry baker jr. perry, just listening to a few of those comments, i don't hate her and i am prepared and resigned. it doesn't sound like a ground swell of enthusiasm for her and yet it doesn't sound like they are mounting any real opposition here. >> steve, the people here are junkies. they know hillary is ahead and is likely to be the candidate.

i came here in 2006, the first one, and then there's the real core issue, iraq, where they felt hillary clinton was in the wrong place. they really wanted to fight her. this time, there was a lot of grumbling here about her speeches to wall street. they really don't like that. that's what they are upset about it. they love that warren wants to take on the rich, take on corporations, and they don't think that hillary is going to do that the way that warren would but they think that's a reason to push against hillary hard. they are kind of resigned, they love, love, love warren, but they can accept hillary. >> i guess that's the other question, is the undercard here. in the event that hillary clinton walks up to the starting line and says, you know what, this is not how i want to spend the rest of my life, i don't want to go through that again, i'm not running, and then the question becomes warren, biden, maybe somebody else. the reaction to warren was like a rock star. what was the reaction of biden

like at this sning. >> the reaction was much milder. you heard them say, people are sort of like -- they start with i love joe biden and then they go into a, but, he's not disciplined enough, he's not unmessaged. he'd be great as secretary of state. he'd be vice president again. it's very much like they think hillary would win, they would love to see warren. it's not a sense that joe biden is material for whatever reason. his speech got a lot of applause but warren had a totally different energy in the room of people standing up every second, chanting her to run. no one is chanting, run, joe, run. there was a lot of "run, liz, run." much more excite about her. >> wait, the biden speech was only 40 minutes? >> it was only -- yeah. he had some great lines but he really takes the air out of the room for talking for so long.

>> perry baker, thank you. great report. we'll have more from and about net roots nation after this. ♪ in the nation, the safest feature in your car is you. add vanishing deductible from nationwide insurance and get $100 off for every year of safe driving. which for you, shouldn't be a problem. just another way we put members first, because we don't have shareholders. join the nation. nationwide is on your side. [ male announcer ] we all deserve a good night's sleep. thankfully, there's zzzquil. it's not for colds, it's not for pain, it's just for sleep. ♪ because sleep is a beautiful thing™. ♪

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visit celebrex.com and ask your doctor about celebrex. for a body in motion. what do you think about hillary clinton? >> um, i think that i'd love to see her adopt elizabeth warren's politics. >> really? >> yeah. >> there is a mass movement of wealth between the -- into the upper class out of the middle and lower class. there's a lot of discrepancy. i mean, we are in big trouble and clintonian politics of the days of old are not going to fly and it's not popular with people and want to see change and if she's willing to embrace those, then sign me up. >> that was actor mark ruffalo who you may know from hollywood

blockbusters like "the avengers." he was raising concerns about the still undeclared 2016 frontrunner. could hillary clinton be in trouble with progressives like mark rufalo? joining me is joan walsh and congressman barney frank and ann lewis, a senior adviser to hillary clinton and communications for bill clinton. ann and barney, brother and sister, we originally had pr planned to do this another weekend but news overtook it. >> we're still a team. >> still a team. >> here they are sitting right next to each other. ann, mark rufalo, the critique that he just read, is that something that hillary clinton is aware of? >> oh, i think anybody watching the news would be aware and if

people look at the record that she already has, fighting to raise minimum wage, raise the minimum wage and pay the mothers what they are worth. she strongly supports tax cuts for the very wealthy. she's been secretary of state. she advocated for programs like microfinance which can help raise for american businesses, work for american jobs. she will have a lot to talk about and a whole set of policies that will be appropriate. >> barney, are you one of these ready for hillary clinton? >> very much so. you know what i would recommend

to people, one of the most articulate advocates for fundamental change in the american policy to deal better with inequality is paul krugman from "the new york times." people should go back to the 2008 primary campaign. >> yes. yes. >> he was supportive of hillary clinton versus barack obama. obama was more to the left in the kind of impressions and culture -- >> thank you, joan. >> a culture candidate. but on substance, for instance, paul krugman kept documenting that hillary clinton was barack obama's left. >> and she also supported a moratorium on foreclosures. >> yes. in general, i worked very closely with elizabeth warren. i'm proud of that. i was one of the first to advocate her running for the senate. she's wonderful. but this effort to make a big gulf between her and hillary clinton on the issues, i think

it's not terribly substantive. i don't understand this. and i didn't -- i didn't see there was criticism because hillary clinton came from wall street. i want to make a confession. as a former member of congress, i accept speaking fees from rich people and if there are any rich people out there that want me to give a speech, call my agent. >> i don't hate her. i don't hate her, people say. you have mark ruffalo's critique right there. everything that we've heard from barney and ann, doesn't mean that they won't vote for her in the primary but where does it come from? >> well, a couple of things. i love mark ruffalo but i get a little uncomfortable when people talk about clintonian and stuff like that. she's also been more progressive

than her husband. it's too early to presume that she supported everything. we know she didn't. that's one thing. one thing that excited me about -- i'm sad that i'm not at netroots because it's so exciting this year but one thing that surprised me was the number of candidates. i think it's important that we talk about joe biden. i think it's important to say that elizabeth warren is there if hillary clinton decided not to run. there was all of this -- the silver lining was that the republicans had a deep bench and the democrats had none, except hillary. now the republican's deep bench is in splinters and the democratic bench is hillary, it could joe biden, elizabeth warren. >> if hillary clinton doesn't run -- i don't know. the one scenario that i see is what she lived through with her husband in the 1990s, she makes that gut check and says, do i

want to be there every day for the next ten years. is elizabeth warren the front-runner if hillary clinton doesn't run? >> we don't know if she will run and she's got to make a we don' know if she's going to run. i'll say what i know about hillary clinton, when faced with tough decisions they tends to do what the responsible thing to do. we'll see at the end of this year what she thinks as they looks at those opportunities. i would not immediately say that elizabeth warren is the front-runner. we don't know where people will be. i think there will be a laud of adjusting there. she herself said she wanted her term in the senate six years. let's look at those. >> i would say this, i'm a great admirer. i campaign eed hard for her. obviously very popular. i don't think you can go back in american politics, certainly not 50, 60 years, and this fallout, even before the midterm election

where there was no incumbent president be very good at deciding who would be the nominee. no one was predicting barack obama at this point in 2006. or bill clinton at this point in 1990. >> but hillary breaks the mold right now. i've never seen a poll with these numbers. >> i agree, hillary is -- i can't remember a time when a candidate who is not having been the vice president like you say mondale or bush was as much some the lead. again, we had the most energetic active people out there at a convention and some of them are excited about them. but they're not representative. those are the people i most worked with. but they're not representative of even the democratic party. and the fact is, this is a big country. 300 something million people. i wish the people of net roots were fully representative. if they were fully representative, i would have been running for president 20 years ago.

>> there's still time in the show, what do we know now that we didn't know last week? the answers after this. (laughter) we would do anything for her. my name is kim bryant and my husband and i made a will on legalzoom. it was really easy to do. (baby noise...laughter) we created legalzoom to help you take care of the ones you love. go to legalzoom.com today and complete your will in minutes. at legalzoom.com we put the law on your side.

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i guess we already knew that john mccain had never seen a conflict that he didn't think needed more weapons. i guess we knew that. but today on your show, we learned there are republicans like congressman charlie dent who are going to say the president is doing a good job and we need to work with the europeans on the ukraine. i was happy with that. >> i'm glad of that. barney. >> this morning, not simply a lot of conservatives want more weapons, but they want them forever. here's what "the wall street journal" is criticizing the president. it's not too late to undo mr. obama's mistake. that means afghanistan eventually. and commit america's support and troops to afghanistan as we have in europe and south korea. as i read it, that 64, 78 years, 68 years respectively.

this is the logic of their position. let's keep troops in afghanistan indefinitely. >> right. >> i'm going to play attention to the 2014 election tweets which so important. look to see if he can win. actually ran away from a reporter, wanted to get away from the reporter who wanted to ask him about the hobby lobby prediction. scott brown gave him the backdrop he could tell workers what kind of birth control they could use. here's what we learned. there is no state in the union where women think their bosses should get to tell them what kind of birth control they should use. that's why the democrats should have a not my boss' business bill. >> it could be saving democrats this fall. >> this morning, joan walsh,

former congressman barney frank and ann lewis, we appreciate you for getting up this morning. coming up next is melissa harris-perry. she'll have the developing news of the worth. the malaysia crash and the greatest on gaza. be sure to keep it here. we'll see you back here 8:00 a.m. tomorrow among eastern time. ♪ the animals went in two by two ♪ ♪ the sheep and the frog and the kangaroo ♪ ♪ and they all went marching, marching in two by two ♪ ♪ [ male announcer ] the nissan pathfinder, with intuitive four-wheel drive. an adventure worth sharing. nissan. innovation that excites.

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this morning, my question -- can we stop murder with a paycheck? plus, the ground invasion in gaza. and what president obama calls a wake-up call for the world. but first understanding what brought down malaysia airlines flight 17. ♪ good morning, i'm melissa harris-perry. 298 lives lost. president obama confirmed friday that malaysia airlines flight 17 which was downed on