this morning, my question -- can we stop murder with a paycheck? plus, the ground invasion in gaza. and what president obama calls a wake-up call for the world. but first understanding what brought down malaysia airlines flight 17. ♪ good morning, i'm melissa harris-perry. 298 lives lost. president obama confirmed friday that malaysia airlines flight 17 which was downed on thursday and

flying in a section of airspace deemed says by international authorities was shot down from a surface-to-air missile in an area controlled by russian-backed separatists inside of ukraine. it remains unclear exactly this morning who is responsible for firing the missile. the fing pointing continues as both russia and separatists continue to deny responsibility. the rebels believe that forces could be to blame. in statements by samantha power, the u.s. ambassador to the u.n. >> separatists claimed responsibility for shooting down a military transport plane and posted videos that are now being connected to the malaysian airlines crash. separatists also boasted about shooting down a plane but later deleted these mess ashes. >> and according to the independent fax news agency, russian president vladimir putin put the blame directly on the

claim. saying the state whose this happened bears the responsibility for the tragedy. this tragedy would thought have happened had there been peace in this land if hostility has not resumed in the southeast of ukraine. addressing the issue, president obama took the issue directly to putin. >> we no that her heavily armed and they are trained. and that is not happening because of support. a group of separatists can't shoot down military transport planes, or they claim down shoot down fighter jets without sophisticated equipment and sophisticated training. and that is coming from russia. >> president obama also called for an immediate cease-fire in ukraine and a credible international investigation. over ports blocking access to parts of the crash site it is anyone's guess who soon that will happen. i want to bring in nbc news

chief correspondent jim miklaszewski. how are they piecing this together to find out who fired ace surface tour air missile into malaysian flight 17. >> they're certain about one thing, that the missile as you reported that brought down a malaysian airliner was fired from a rebel-controlled territory in eastern ukraine. and as the president said, those rebels couldn't do that, without sophisticated training on the missile systems and how to use them. but u.s. military and intelligence officials are going one step further in terms of that. and are -- and actually i suspect that those rebels had a big-time assist from russian forces, positioned across the border. now, it's been known for some time, that russian military forces have been embedded with some of those rebel fighters that are inside eastern ukraine to help train them on such items as heavy artillery, tanks, that

the russians have been shipping across the border. and, yes, those missile launchers. so now, however, it appears that there is some intelligence that points to the possibility that a russian soldier or soldiers themselves could have actually pulled the trigger. or at least, at the very least, the command to shoot down that plane, whether they knew it was an airliner or not, appears it may have come from some kind of russian commander, melissa. >> so, jim, let me ask you a bit more about that. so is the question then about russian culpability primarily one of how proximate the relationship is, in other words, how soon or how close to the firing of this missile there was actually either a conversation or training or provision of the weapon. when it comes to culpability, nothing else matters, except the fact that as president obama himself has said, the russians have continued to escalate the violence in eastern ukraine.

they continue to provide sophisticated weaponry to the rebels. so, even -- even if on an off chance that the missile went off accidentally, and accidentally hit the airplane, u.s. officials would consider the russians and president vladimir putin himself still culpable. >> jim miklaszewski in washington, thank you for joining us. in the studio this morning, we have a panel guest to help us better understand the complications at the story. at the table, bobby gauche, managing editor of the atlantic news site corps. hillary man leverage was professor at the school of the history. earl mann has upon. and nina cochia, associate professor of the schools. thank you for being here. let me start especially with

jim, about the building of a case of the culpability of the russian state and of vladimir putin in particular. we want to take a moment and listen to our ambassador to the u.n., samantha power doing some of that. >> early thursday, an sa-11 system was reported by a western reporter and separatists were spotted hours before the incident with an sa-11 system at a location close to the site where the plane came down. >> is there actual confusion about what happened or is this just about building the case? >> i think that everybody is in agreement that it was russian separatists, except the separatists themselves, that it came from their particular territory. whether or not who was in command, russian adviser, that's the key here. i doubt they were russian military advisers, possibly in part of their intelligence services, that probably were not in russian uniforms. if they were there.

there has been constant training -- you have to understand, the ukrainian military, the one in the soviet system there was a conscript on it. so many people were trained in the weapons system. and the sa-11 that was fired was a late-70s type of technology. soviet systems are notoriously not as technical as what we have seen because they were meant for the conscript army, as well as they're designed for the massive production techniques. >> so making this kind of error might make more sense if we're talking about that sort of weapon? >> well, i wouldn't call this -- >> i'm presuming that there was an error -- there's not as far as we know at this point, strategicest from in bringing down a passenger plane? >> absolutely. this is an error -- they say there's no doubt that they thought it was probably a ukrainian transport flight. there's no doubt about that. i think that russia is directly culpable for funding it -- for helping with the ukrainian

sprafts, or russian separatists. i don't know if we have to have a case here that we really have to do this. this is not like weapons of mass destruction. >> right. >> this is the way it is so we can proceed on the sanctions whether or not the. >> caller: e., regardless of all of this is going to buy into the sanctions because they're so integrated economically, that's the question. >> when you bring up that point, my sort of nervous laughter, the last time we saw a u.n. ambassador making a case like this. >> in the u.s. government, i was in, that's part of the reason i resigned from the white house at the time. that was not a wrong case that was a fraudulent case i say that with all due respect to general colin powell who i deeply respect and respected at the time. he was given that case. we buy that over and over again based on the assumptions who we think to be the bad guys. we did it in iraq. we did it in libya, we did it in

syria, this time, we're daring to do it with russia. who is still a huge partner with weapons and lots of oil and dollars. >> i guess maybe that's the discomfort i'm feeling here in part. i asked jim about it. and so, what are we talking about, the former colin powell, with the u.s. and the soviet union, the former soviet union, that provided all kinds of weapons and training, kind of across the world. and now we're talking about the culpability of russia. i get that this is more proximate. but how is this at putin's door step? why is this case different than simply saying, this is about the general old existing relationship? >> well, it's not about this old existing relationship. i think we make it about the old existing relationship. but this is a new relationship. and i actually disagree. i have to say this is a very good case against putin and against the kremlin and against the way he runs foreign policy or domestic policy or any policy

for that matter. because he's culpable. he does support those rebels. instead of saying fine, russia is involved one way or another. i agree, they did not -- i mean, it's hard to imagine, and we actually know from transcripts that they did not give the direct order that the rebels actually did think of themselves as the heroes, when they shot down the plane. but then they decided to dial it back. >> this is how the evidence is beginning to come back. >> to dial it down when they found out there actually was a passenger plane. but putin didn't come out right away, they didn't go on your show, every other show to say this is a mistake. he immediately went out and went after ukraine and said is this 0 your problem, is this your guilt. so he should be held responsible for running something insufficient foreign policy or domestic policy. >> all right. there's so much more on this because i do want to talk -- i do want to continue to talk about this. just real quickly, i want to point out, we have a transcript.

i just want people to understand what it is we're talking about in that case. so this is an intercepted communication at least by the ukrainian government. it's allegedly a conversation between a separatist and uche yan government member. i do want to know that nbc has not independently verified the authenticity of this recording. it this is what the professor is responding to here.

>> again, not yet verified, but if that ends up being authentic recording, it is chilling. >> it is pretty chilling. it's also, you know, the key phrase, we shouldn't put it past the ukrainian government. they do have an interest here. it's interesting that everyone is speaking in complete sentences. so there's reason. >> we don't speak in complete sentences? >> well, the translation is. and the amount of curse words -- >> the thing is, just to go back to the point that you're making earlier, putin has gone on the offensive from the beginning. but he has been careful not to say in so many words the ukrainians are in it. he's not nor he or senior officials making the statement, saying the rebels didn't do it. that's a crucial point.

he's giving himself room to maneuver. >> maybe putin, but russian-based media. that is the prime -- where you see they're trying to get to the people. they are saying ukrainian jets have followed. they were tracking this plane. there could have been an air-to-air missile. the amount in the russian media, it's some correspondents that have said it's even worse than during soviet time. >> i want to speak to a point that we get to as soon as we get back, what is happening internally within russian politics in terms of what's going on with putin and all of this. there is one man squarely at the focus of the u.s. government in finding automatic the focus in ukraine and our ambassador made that very clear on friday in an impassioned speech. part of that is next. yeah, i can fix that.

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most council members and most members of the international community have been warning for months about the devastation that would come if russia did not stop what it started. if it did not rein in what it unleashed. this war can be ended. russia can end this war. russia must end this war. >> listing to the u.n. ambassador speaking at a meeting of the u.n. security council friday. here's the question, if we're remembering the colin powell moment, as you recalled for us, then is this -- is there an ending here? what is samantha power asking for when she says end this war? what is the action? >> look, the united states, the foreign policy of the united states have acted from day one after the crash of the soviet union, but we have defeated russia. and we have acted that way ever

since. what putin represents is a rise to that attitude that we defeated him. we have basically that response. there is no end game in trying to bring russia down. we have tried that in iraq, libya and syria. it has failed. and now we've taken it to the door steps one of the world's superpowers. a power with weapons, dollars and oil. this is not going to turn out well for us. i'm afraid we're in even a more dangerous moments than some of the worst moments of the cold war. i would harken this back to the cuban missile rises. we've taken this to the borders of russia as russia did to us in cuba. at least to the cold war there is a buffer. now, we've taken it up to the borders of russia and we've unleashed something very dangerous. >> i've seen you on our air this week talking a fair bit about this. i think the position has been generally that in fact we did not bring this, mr. putin brought it. but he brought it in large part, because of this standing up over

and against america which claims to have defeated america and that worked for the internal politics. >> i agree with hillary. i would not observe putin from playing the victim but bully victim saying the united states did that to us and we cannot do it back to the whole world. if somebody is a bully, you do not respond this way. he's worse. i think actually today with what's happened now, i don't know if it's a turning back and trying to end this crisis. i think there was a window of opportunity. six months we've been talking about it on this show. they was dmrom has that could have been used that had been used before. but now it's really -- russia has many an international murderer. >> does this change the position of europeans. this is a plane where most of the deaths are observed in our

european nations. does that change their calculus? >> you put your finger on the problem. we don't need to see samantha power mouthing off about the russians. we know her position. we need to see the dutch do that, we need to see the french do that and we're not seeing that. >> hasn't -- >> yeah, they agreed we should have an international investigation. that's not a position of strength. >> here's the solution, we're going to change the discourse we're having with sanctions. the u.n. security council can authorize peace-making troops there. >> to ukraine? >> to ukraine. and if we ask for the russian support to actually have russian troops in place and you work in concert with them, and then that way, they keep it as checks and balances. this is a possible solution. >> this is about russia's re-emergence to power. and its challenge to the united

states. this really does need to be dealt with on a russian-american level where is there american assurance that we will not encourage support or in any way facilitate ukraine or any other countries close to russia their entrance into nato. that is the red line for putin. if ke can do that, that opens the door to conflict resolution. >> stick with us, we'll pick up there. there's still news on this developing story. the latest word out of moscow is next. completely unbelievabowl... totally delectabowl. real silky smooth or creamy broths. everything she's been waiting for. carefully crafted with real seafood, real veggies, and never any by-products or fillers. wow! being a cat just got more enjoyabowl. fancy feast broths. wow served daily.

this certainly will be a wake-up call for europe and the world there are consequences to an escalating conflict in eastern ukraine but it is not going to be localized. it is not going to be contained. that was president obama on friday maintaining that what happens in eastern ukraine does not stay there. according to reports russia is trying to show they are not part

of the problem calling on kiev and rebels to give international experts access to the plane crash site earlier today. russian foreign minister indicated that moscow will retaliate for sanctions imposed by the u.s. over ukraine. what was the missed window? you suggested earlier there was a missed window? >> in the very beginning if the president would have come out and said ukraine cannot gain entrance into nato. that would have stopped that whole thing in the beginning. as of now, i'm not so sure that will work with president putin. i do think we're able to change the solutions with sanctions. and the e.u. will not do it. they're too economically integrated. that say consequence of globalization. really, it's one of the things that we thought would reduce conflict. unfortunately, it has a reverse effect on making minor conflicts persist longer because we can't exert those economic influences. >> i just thought that the

moment was after the geneva agreement, when was that, may, right? and that was a moment but unfortunately joe biden went to ukraine and gave one of his fiery speeches and barack obama went to asia and was talking about it. and he should have gone to moscow. >> president should have gone? >> right. the president gone to moscow sat down with putin man-to-man. said we are not perfect, we understand your frustration, but let's have a conversation about this. and putin actually probably would have gone through it. because america would have admitted that it's not always -- >> i appreciate that point. there's such difficulty wean these men, you can see in their body language even. just as we talked about there being a masculine, muscular politics which putin is playing. so, too, if the president of the united states hadn't sat down with putin and said, hey, sometimes, we make mistakes, too too what would have happened for

him back at home? >> it's not only the united states, but during the cold war, united states recognized that russia had interests. we had conflicts with them in other places but not on russia's borders. that's the key here. it's not that they make mistakes. it's that we have to acknowledge russia's interest, in part of the former soviet space. >> what are the domestic politics different that the moment. that the level of infighting with a president who is actively trying to stand on his own borders and represent the interest of the united states were quite different for those who governed in the context of the world war. >> and this is where -- this is where i voted for obama in 2008. this was his brilliant but basically simple insight. you don't negotiate with your friends. you actually negotiate with your enemies or your foes, you try to achieve conflict resolution. this is where he distinguished himself from hillary clinton in

the primaries where he focusing to his opposition in the war in iraq. he said instead of demonizing our sanctions away from countries, we will deal with them as they are. that's a critical insight. he needs to find that inner obama and bring it back and negotiate. >> he actually treated him like he was one of his worst enemies and that was at least part of -- >> he excited sort of taking this position against russia as if they're writing checks that are big on cash. >> right. >> they are taking a position that requires the europeans to take a hard line against the russians but the europeans have absolutely no interest in doing this. >> even with the loss of 200 people? >> even as i said we haven't yet heard the dutch prime minister or the dutch government come up with a strong statement against russia, then that tells us something. that they have lost 183 people and the realities of europe, and the realities of their

dependence on russia override the deaths of 183. >> stick with us. thank you for your insight. we'll see you later at the table. up next, we'll turn to the enormous international story that we're following this morning. the ground invasion in gaza when we come back. when i spent $5,000 in the first 3 months after i opened my account. and i earn 5 times the rewards on internet, phone services and at office supply stores. with ink plus i can choose how to redeem my points. travel, gift cards, even cash back. and my rewards points won't expire. so you can make owning a business even more rewarding. ink from chase. so you can.

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which for you, shouldn't be a problem. just another way we put members first, because we don't have shareholders. join the nation. nationwide is on your side. fighting in the gaza strip continued to intensify last night. the second round of the ground invasion on the palestinian territory. 34 people were killed bringing the death toll among palestinians to 333, including 77 children, according to the gaza health ministry. more than 2,000 people have been injured. one israeli civilian was also killed last night by rocket fire. bringing the israeli death toll to three. israeli prime minister netanyahu said the goal is to dismantle tunnels used by the hamas of the militant political group that

controls the gaza trip. hamas used the tunnels to smuggle supplies against tightly controlled areas. it comes after a week of fighting of rockets launched from gaza. cease-fire is ongoing but have made little headway of both sides accusing each other. ban ki-moon is heading to the area to try to mediate the conflict. half of gaza's 1.8 million residents do not have access to clean water according to the united nations and more than 50,000 palestinians have fled their home. joining us from tell a tel aviv, martin fletcher. is it headed towards escalation or laying down? >> no sign it's laying down whatsoever. definitely towards escalation. the israelis are moving slowly, carefully deep inside gaza.

they've taken over a one-mile corridor north and the central area. that's where they're looking for the tunnels that militants have dug in attacks soldiers and civilians. in fact, today, there was a confrontation, palestinian gunmen 20 through the tunnel and they did emerge inside israel today. they were spotted by israeli patrol. and there was a gun fight. two israeli soldiers were wounded. one palestinian was killed. and the other palestinian managed to apparently escape into the tunnel and back into gaza. so that was a success for hamas getting their gunmen and fighters inside of israel. and hamas publicized that massively on their social media, saying they've taken the fight to the enemy. inside gaza, the israeli soldiers are moving, as i said earlier, slowly and carefully into the areas, in particular, in the north, where they're

going house to house looking for rocket launchers. they say they found 25 to 30 rocket launch evers in those buildings. they also say they found about 15 of the tunnels. they found more than 30 entrance shaflts to the tunnels. bear in mind, tunnels often have more than one entrance into them. so the fighting is getting -- is getting more intense, the more the israelis go into gaza. they're hoping to limit their objectives to the outskirts and to take out those rocket launchers. but hamas, which in the beginning of the ground invasion was holding back. there was no real confrontations, direct hamas fighters with israeli soldiers until earlier today. now, hamas is beginning to come out and take the fighting to the israeli soldiers. so there will be more -- there will be more casualties on both sides. one israeli soldier was kid yesterday by it turned out the israeli army confirmed a shell fired by an israeli tank.

that was an israeli soldier killed by israeli soldiers. the longer the fighting goes on it is escalating and therefore more casualties. melissa. >> martin fletcher in tel aviv. i want to bring the panel back into the discussion. help me understand, why in this moment, because the conversation is about the tunnels. the tunnels are preexisting, israel made a strategic decision to invade the ground war? >> the tunnels have been a problem for many, many years, because we're talking about a population, under occupation and under siege. the israelis have these population entirely undersiege. they regulate what kind of potato chip can get in when they allow potato chips in, that doesn't even get to medicine or anything else. this is a population completely under siege, it is doing whatever they can to break that siege. >> some of the smuggling that occurs in the tunnels is

militarilistic in nature. >> they're not bringing in food supplies. they are to give hamas ability to strike inside of israel. >> which martin is telling us in fact happens. so, but, again, still help me, they're not necessarily new. >> that's my implication was, it wasn't not only used for potato chips. what i'm trying to say this is a population doing what it can, largely in an asymmetric way because it doesn't have an army. that's why the israelis call this type of operation mowing the grass. to periodically trim back, they've done this for several years, 2008, 2009, 2012. >> between the population, there is hamas and there is the population that's in gaza. and you can even see in some of

the correspondence, where they talked to the palestinians that say i'm not leaving my home because then hamas is going to use it to attack israeli soldiers. so what is happens here, israel, using the kidnapping of the three israelis, they're not going to go into a ground offensive. you see there are minimal casualties on the israelis' party. there's acceptable civilian loss. it may be exploited because it is coming from the gaza authority. and acceptable loss through the air campaign. they're going to go poke in and try to get hamas to attack. hamas just demonstrated they're willing to come into this tunnels which gave him legitimacy with the israeli people to go in. israel knows it's going to lose on the p.r. world spectrum. so what they're going to do, the reason why they do the leaflet campaign. the reason why they make phone calls before they go in and bomb these places, the reason why

they're taking it slow and methodical, is reducing the casualties. that's not necessarily the kindness of their hearts. it is. but it is because you can get over somebody breaking into your house and looting it. but you can't get over your brother or son doing it. >> you've taken us to a lot of places that i think are both very difficult and hard for us but important for us to parse. so i want to start with one of them and promising to get to the others. one say question about acceptable civilian losses and also about sort of how israel is thinking about that issue. and how they're making choices. before we get to it that, i want to ask about winning and losing. what would constitute a win, bobby? and what would constitute a win for hamas? without an army, they don't expect to defeat israel. but there could be aspects of this, should that be a win for them? >> well for israel, the

victory -- you know what there's no final victory for either side. israel can degrade hamas' ability from a substantial point of view that would be considered a win. if they can stop the hail of rockets that would count as a victory. knowing in time, hamas will find more rockets as they have done over and over and over again. you can break down 100 tunnels and they'll build the 101st tunnel. for hamas, to define it is much more difficult. in some respects they've already won. they were within enormous pressure in gaza and from the west bank. they had been forced to make a conciliation ford fatah, with the palestinian authority. this gives them in some degree at least a spike of revival. i think in the long term, gazans will not forget that hamas is incompetent, as well as murderous. but at least for the next few

months, they will get a little bit of the glow, if you like from having launched that. >> that's exactly on this topic and on the question of civilian loss when we come back. ♪ ♪ da-da-da-da-da, bum-da, bum-da ♪ ♪ bum-da, bum-da ♪ the animals went in two by two ♪ ♪ the sheep and the frog and the kangaroo ♪ ♪ and they all went marching, marching in two by two ♪ ♪ [ male announcer ] the nissan pathfinder, with intuitive four-wheel drive. an adventure worth sharing. nissan. innovation that excites.

an adventure worth sharing. shingles the pain in my tremendouscalp areailot. and down the back of my neck was intense. it would have been virtually impossible in that confined space to move to change radio frequencies. i mean it hurt. i couldn't even get up and drive let alone teach somebody and be responsible in an airplane.

as a pilot that meant i was grounded. i want to listen for a moment to a moment for my colleague chris hayes' program "all in" last night. this is was the israeli prime minister, he was discussing results from firing near a hospital. >> another example of hamas using human shields. using gaza civilians, deliberately. my prime minister i thought put it very well when he said in israel, we've got missiles to protect people. in gaza, they use hamas. he uses people to protect its missiles. it's disgusting and it's the entire difference between us and then. >> so that has become a discursive strategy, to say the

civilian losses -- hamas said it's policymaking and israel said it's hamas'' policies relative to how they shield civilian. >> i was in a student in gaza when hamas was first born. hamas in arabic is an acronym that means movement. it's not a fighter organization. it is a movement. it's one in the same in a population. it is the. you las vegas. that's the problem that israel has. wherever any rocket is fryered from gaza whether from a hospital, whether from an apartment, or the beach, it is part of the population. that's where hamas is. you cannot distinguish. that's why the israelis have such a hard time that's why they have to call it mowing the

grass. the israelis have hit 1800 sites. they call it sites. there are no military targets. the population is the target. >> and you just militarized the population. when you just said it's the existence, it's the movement. it's israelis are trying to force that as well as trying to force that separation and the individual palestinians are doing that. because they don't want to engage in this violent conflict. they may have sentiments. they may feel for it. but they're not willing to risk it but once you just stayed where you did, where you militarized the population, game on. >> we're saying with the sites not that they're necessarily effective reducing all of the rockets, but they're actually demonstrating, as we hit them, they're making phone calls saying, look, we know where you live, we know where your family is. and we will integrate that into the actual system.

now when they engage the targets then they demonstrate the hour they could. at the same time, i think israel with its astute apparatus, has infiltrated with deals with different hamas leaders with the west bank. there is no doubt in my mind that there is a power struggle going on within hamas and the west bank. and they're playing off of this, as well as with egypt. and these are things that we don't know about. but you cannot militarized a population because it's game on. >> are that's where we are on game on you either have the palestinians go unilaterally for statehood to sign up for the criminal court to get them restrained or the united states restrained that way. or on a one-path solution. either way, you're talking about restraint of american power and that's why both united states and israel have closed those two paths because that's all we're

left with because we are at game-on. >> let's talk about the game-on session for a moment. when we use that language, it is an assumption about a kind of evenly matched sides here. i hate comparative suffering of all kinds because suffering is its own selves. but vaul neblt can be determined. and it does seem that one side of this is more vulnerable to civilian losses than another side. and, yet, israel is reasonably, i think, operating with a sense of existential threat, right? even though it's demonstrable, there is greater civilian vulnerability for the people living in gaza that sense of existential threat to the entire existence of both israel and the jewish people makes it feel as though these are evenly matched. and i don't know how to parse through that in a meaningful way. whom hamas is, it just boys on a beach.

>> to get to that, there is an existential stretch to israel. it's the population. the number of jews that israel controls is 5.2 million. the number of arabs is 5.4 million. you're already talking about a minority political order over arabs who don't want it. that is an existential threat to israel. to the political order and that is a crisis. >> to your question -- >> as soon as we get back, i'll go straight to you. we'll take a break. [ male announcer ] if you had a dollar for every dollar

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although we support military efforts by the israelis to make sure that rockets are not being fired into their territory, we also have said that our understanding as the current military ground operations designed to deal with the tunnels, and we are hopeful that

israel will continue to approach this process in a way that minimizes civilian casualties. >> that was president obama speaks to reporters yesterday about the situation in gaza. sounds very much like every american president that we've heard on this. he's sort of begun talking about that. >> yeah, if israelis are responding to what it sees as an exist yential threat, what why doing what it did the last time and the time before that. these policies by definition don't work. if you have to do this every two years, it means it doesn't work. i think it was einstein who said the true insanity is doing the same thing over and over again but expecting a different result. now, it's not just the result. all the parties in this are trapped in this sort of groundhog day situation where they're repeating their behavior with no effort to change it. >> so what leadership on either side provides an alternative

imagination for what is possible? >> hamas does. >> hamas does. we don't talk about it because we demonize a terrorist organization that can't possibly have the same idea but what they have put on the table it is a ten-year cease-fire with israel, in exchange for israel lifting the siege on gaza with an internationally supervised airport and seaport. now, that may not be perfect, but that is a critically important contribution to conflict resolution. >> beyond the question of whether or not it's perfect, obviously at the core of any negotiation, particularly of a cease-fire of a decade long is to believe that they are operating in good faith, that seems to be fundamentally undermining it here. beyond who is the bad guy, it's hard to imagine there's honest brokering between these parties. >> so it's kind of like the brokering it back and forth. i think the israeli government and the israeli people have

accepted that conflict is just -- it's ongoing. it's continual. so it's about the management of conflict in reducing as much as possible casualties and resources. i think that's a fundamental way in a way we can see things in america and see possible solutions where there's an acceptance, i think it's a pragmatic acceptance that conflict is continual. it's a management of conflict and how do we reduce this to the point of nil. >> i guess part of it, to me, to hear you say that, perhaps from the context of the safety of bordered by the pacific and atlantic ocean, as far as where we are, we see a potential end, the resolution to conflict. i just keep trying to think what it must mean to live in that perpetual state of horror of air strikes. and then a ground invasion. what that means like. there's no american that's lived on this land, in living memory of an invasion of our sovereign

land. >> and it's not just -- it's not just that it's hard for to us imagine this kind of maintenance of a constant conflict of constant worry. it's hard for people on the ground. so the israelis want to manage an occupation. they want to manage a siege. the palestinians don't want that. it's as simple as that. i've been to gaza several times as a student, as a u.s. official, as a u.s. diplomat, it is under the best of circumstances, a horrific place to live. nobody wants to live there. the vast majority of population are refugees without clean water, without decent health care, without basic necessities. they don't want a siege. what hamas is offering is to change that situation. to change that dynamic. the problem, i think, for the united states and israel is we would prefer to have the management of conflict, prefer to have the management of an occupation. we don't really want to see a resolution of this. that's why the middle east peace process has always failed because we don't really want a

two-state solution. we don't want the constraints of israeli powers. >> because we prefer u.s.in hed 0my in the resolution. >> it's about power. not just in coal war politics but today. the last great place that the united states can hold on in terms of resources and wealth is the middle east. >> i find that hard to believe, i really do, because it's about u. u.s.ing u.s. hegomony. the mismanagement and culture going back many, many years. maybe i'm not a cynic, i'm an optimist thinking the united states wants perpetual

conflicts. we're going to bring you the story of a california town. a solution for decreasing murder. and at the top of the hour, the latest on the downs malaysia plane. please stay with us. what does an apron have to do with car insurance? every time you tie on an apron, you make progress. and we like that. because progress is what we make, too.

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a healthy, happy life. purina cat chow complete. share your rescue story and join us in building better lives. one rescue at a time. the downing of malaysia airlines flight 17 thursday killed 298 people. most of the passengers were dutch nationals. though the death of at least one american citizen quinn lucas schansman has been confirmed. president obama and other world leaders called for an immediate cease-fire in ukraine where the plane crashed. the president also addressed media calling on flight 17 an outrage of unspeakable proportions and stopped just short of putting the blame for the tragedy on russian-backed separatists. he did not, however, shy away from calling to task russian

president putin. >> if mr. putin makes a decision that we are not going to allow heavy armaments, and the flow of fighters, into ukraine, across the ukrainian/russian border, then it will stop. he has the most control over that swiegs. and so far, at least, he has not exercised it. >> i want to bring in nbc news correspondence kristen welker. we now know that president obama and president vladimir putin haven't spoken since the crash. how is it were that we know that the president is pressuring russia? >> well, melissa, we heard the president talk about the next steps. he made a series of phone calls to counterparts including angela merkel. the two discussed what official

actions might be requires. that means they are discovering the possibility of possible sanctions against russia. if it is confirmed that the plane was shut shut down by russian-backed separatists with weaponry provided by russia. that's significant, melissa, because you'll recall this past week, the day before the plane was shot down, president obama announced the stiffest round against russia yet. the e.u. also announced new sanctions but they did not go nearly as far. what's happening with the united states in the phone calls and that the u.s. is trying to get on the sale page as the e.u. when it comes to sanctions. and if the decision is made to levy additional sanctions against russia, the goal is to have both the u.s. and the e.u. be on the same page. and for those sanctions to be incredibly tough. we could possibly see those sectorial sanctions those would

be the broadest or heavily felt sanctions. the broadest perspective it the investigation. the white house is saying it is critical that they establish rock-solid case against russia. that they are able to point to exactly what happened here, so that ultimately if it's determined that additional sanctions and additional actions are necessary. there are no questions. there are no question marks. nothing, basically, no stones left unturned. so that is the focus right now. and that's why you hear president obama calling for an international investigation and calling for a cease-fire. one more point about that german chancellor angela merkel did speak with vladimir putin and urged him to call for a cease-fire so investigators can get to the crash sight, melissa. >> i heard you talk about the need to establish the case and establish the evidence. if the issue for the e.u. has to

do with an economic inter29ing and the long-term interests vis-a-vis russia. does it make a difference even if you could have the, sort of, smoking gun toe to speak to show the link between russia and the downing of this aircraft? >> right. that is the critical question, how can they move forward without destabilizing their own economies. you'll recall that the way with the u.s. this past week, levied the sanctions, the sanctions were very carefully done. they're done in the way that the aim, of course, is they would have an impact on energy funds. defense funds. some of those big financial institutions but they left some wiggle room. so that is certainly going to be part of the discussions. how can they enact he's broad sanctions without having a sweeping impact on the e.u. as well. but here's one of the key points, melissa, there's so much anger right now within europe about this plane getting shot down as well.

pressure's really mounting on those leaders to do something significant. and one thing i'll just say in a wrap, is that the president has said there's not going to be u.s. military intervention here, melissa. >> kristen welker live from the white house. thank you so much. relates go to moscow and speak with nbc news correspondent jim maceda. we've just heard about the tempo of the u.s. to bring this credit from the international community to president vladimir putin. how is he respond to get criticism he's taking from the international community? >> reporter: well, he's hardly contrite about it. in fact, he's put the blame squarely on ukraine saying if kiev had followed his calls for peace, rather than eaching the cease-fire as it did earlier this month, then this tragedy would not have happened. generally speaking, melissa, putin, who, let's face is, must know what happened to flight

mh-17 was trying to presidential. he was reaching out as well. he's speaking to world leaders like merkel on the phone calling for immediate peace talks. agreeing that international investigators must have full access to the crash site. in other words, he's hitting all the right notes, but he's leaving to his henchmen the rest. that means people like deputy prime minister dmitri roboson has tweeted like when saddam hussein had weapons of mass destruction. and also a chiming in today of missiles that were active in that area of ukraine during the time of the incident. normally, putin just sucks up international anger. that's of course easy to do when your approval rating is at 83% according to the most recent gallup poll.

those numbers do go up every time putin takes on the west. the kremlin said it will remain quiet on the matter. that it's going to wait for the investigation to produce its findings but that may mean that putin is biding his time to find out what to do next. bottom line, he's facing somewhat of a dilemma here. if he doubles down, he risks those serious sectorial-related areas. but if he cuts the ties with the russian ethic prospects who are fighting a war in ukraine, his status here at home will take a huge dive and he becomes a target. he may go faceless as they say at the kgb, or low profile for a while and lay things out. >> thank you so much. i want to bring my panel back in, bobby gosch. hillary mann levette, senior adjunct professor lecturer.

and early catagnus jr. professor of history and nina khrushcheva associate professor of international fars at the news school. do you want to respond to what we've heard there? >> yes. >> i just want to say even when the premise of the sanctions would be announced the way the white house talks about it, if the proof will be absolute. they will never get the proof. i don't believe they will get the proof. one of the party lines that has already been going on for a few days now, i think you mentioned that this particular military equipment is the old one. so what the kremlin is saying and his henchmen as jim put it. or what the media is saying, that this was left from the time of the soviet union. so if the rebels got ahold of it. it's because ukrainians did not secure.

so that's really a no-go. that is not going to be proven ever. but as for international view, that actually with probably pressure could influence it -- from your point, the sanctions could influence the politicians. so what is circulating into the russian twitter sphere and maybe even got into the international one, there's all these newsstands in london and netherlands. all of the newspapers, most of them saudi "putin killed my son." that can go up. >> that's what we're sort of suggesting here, earlier, when you said, okay, we don't need to be hearing from the netherlands. or as you're saying there's too much economic interdependency, if putin kid my son, right that head line i don't care about that, but i can pressure on democracy? >> it's true.

but government headlines go up and down. a week from now, those headlines will have faded -- >> in a week, what remains will be those being buried in their countries. >> that's true. but what remains is the leaders of all of this countries will constantly remind us, directly or indirectly, to aggressively to pursue some sort of a sanctions. >> oh, man, that's tough, though. if you think about what we were just talking about in emergency room its of israel and palestine, it is tough to be a duly elected democratic leader of a nation and say, i know that your child is gone. but, you know, it's just too expensive for us to address it. i mean, i don't know, it does feel, too, like it may happen, but that feels like a tough position. i promise i'm going to do more. when i come back, i'm going to bring into the conversation john eshes, the former ambassador to ukraine.

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allow me to bring into our conversation former u.s. ambassador to ukraine john herbst. professor herbst, let me ask about how this moment can potentially change the internal conflict within ukraine itself. >> there is no internal conflict in ukraine. what you is have is irregular war led by russia against ukraine. the leader, the military leader of this wore is say russian colonel. that's why the kremlin has been sending in hundreds of fighters. >> in that context, is there a way that putin can behave in

this moment that can further destabilize or let ukraine stabilize in this the potential of this european conflict with the loss of these lives? >> mr. putin could end the war in ukraine by stopping the flow of wednesday and people into ukraine. and ordering all russian assets owl of ukraine. that would leave maybe a few score, local ukrainians, essentially, thugs, to fight a campaign which, of course, they cannot win. >> and what would be the political payoff for mr. putin to doing such a thing? >> to avoid international isolation. again, russia has been conducting a war against ukraine since it seized crimea, in violation of numerous agreements. in violation of the post cold war order in europe. he has faced some sanctions rather limited because russia is afraid of sanctions. in light of the shootdown of the

jetliner, almost certainly by rebels russian-led, russian-supplied, international demand has been growing. as you talked about the headlines in the european papers, those headlines are largely accurate. obviously, the shootdown was a mistake. it's a mistake enabled by a russian of heady equipment and fighters in ukraine. >> ambassador, hold for me a moment. i want to bring the panel back in. can you discuss what the ambassador is saying here, particularly on whether putin has the power to behave a certain way but whether or not he has incentives? >> i think there's no chance that mr. pooutin is going to do what mr. herbst suggests. the response we have is and will continue to grow against putin is very distorted. we equate some european

opposition with the international community. the world has changed. mr. putin was warmly welcomed in brazil where brazil, china and south africa hugged mr. putin. and they established a bank. a bank that will not be subject to u.s.-led sanctions. we are going to do ourselves, not just europe, but europe great harm that will accelerate the demise of the dollar and the rise of other currencies. and what we're do we're pushing russia very closely to china and to other countries. as the world is changing. we're missing this critical moment in time to play better with others and insist on continued u.s. leadership. >> ambassador may i ask you to respond to that idea that we're sort of creating this world war ii version of what the globe is or what relevant international pressure looks like? >> i don't understand why anyone would want to vet arguments

enabling russia to destabilize another country against international convention. point of fact, if we were to take serious sanctions, for example, if we were to forbid dollar transactions with key financial institutions in russia, the europeans would go along, oil countries would go along and risk facing fines against the united states as the french bank bnp faced for sanctions on iran and the sudan. we are at a point in history where it's true of the powers are rising, but we're also at a point in history where we're seeing two of the rising power's. >> actual list, russia's not a rising power, it's a declining power and we can talk about if you like. one legitimate rising power of china is likewise testing international laws and the seas around it. and china's watching as we deal with russia. and it russia is able to get away with aggression in ukraine,

that will encourage china to pursue aggressive policies in the seas, south china sea, china sea and so on. so this is a very important moment. if the united states exercised the right leadership we will impose serious costs on president putin. >> and ambassador herbst from washington, d.c., thank you. i also want to thank my panel here in new york. we will continue to watch obviously this continuing story. and, of course, we'll continue to monitor the developing story. stay with msnbc throughout the day for the latest on the downing of malaysian airlines flight 17. when we come back, we're going to shift gears and talk about a growing problem in this country. violent crime. and there's at least one city trying to bring down its homicide rate with a very different kind of strategy.

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secret clinical strength. on the northeast end of the san francisco bay is the city of richmond, california. a city of more than just 100,000 residents. the magazine described the city as host something of the most fear and local politician in the country in response to protests against the local chevron oil refinery one of the largest in the nation and the city's number one employer. and it is a city where a government considered use eminent domain to relieve homeowners of debt to prevent foreclosures. in 2007, the city had a more dubious distinction. one of the highest murder rates in the country. 47 murders that year in a city of 100,000 residents, richmond was among the nation's ten most dangerous cities. in 2005, the city declared a

state of emergency due to the high rate of violent crime. but in 2010, the number of murders dropped to 21. in 2013, it dropped again to a 33-year low. 16 murders. last year, the city had five months with no murders at all. why? well, listen. correlation does not imply causation. but in 2007, richmond, california, launched a new program, quite glamly named the office of neighborhood safety. but it's a government agency that has a very unique approach to addressing crime in the city. it it is not law enforcement. the office identifies individuals involved in gun violence but instead of sending police to monitor those neighborhoods, they send neighborhood exchange outlets the men are offered an opportunity to become part of a fellowship with the office. one that offers travel opportunities, counciling and career focus.

one has been talked about more than others it's generating headlines like this one, paying people not to kill, paying people to behave. is that how richmond has reduced gun violence? individuals can earn up to $1,000 a month for their participation gauged on the level of commitment to goals. the man behind this program is devon bergen director of the office of safety in richmond, california. he join us in austin. good morning. >> good morning, melissa, good morning, everybody. >> so talk to me for a second about how the process works for identifying who will be the targets of your intervention. >> well, you mentioned in the opening, the neighborhood change agency. those guys are out there in the neighborhoods where gun violence is most prevalent. and they're out there enday,

engaging community and young people. as you know, the streets talk and being out there you're able to observe a great deal and achieve information about what's going on. we also have access to law enforcement intelligence that lets us know who they believe are the most lethal active who are walking the streets. so combined gives us a good target on which to focus our energy and resources on. >> i really get this strategy. i just recently moved from new orleans living in the 7th ward. an extremely high rate. every time i talked about somebody who said they have this murder rate it's actually around these nodes. it's a few mobile handful of individuals most likely to be at the root of all of this. but is it about enormous outlay of city resources to do the targeting that you're talking

about here? >> oh, absolutely. and common to most communities where it's prevalent. it's a relatively small group of people that are engaged in this destructive behave. as it relates to richmond. the city contribution to our budget is about $1 million. but we raise about $1 million to provide opportunities for these young men. we serve approximately 200 individuals or so annually who have a firearm offense in their background. but all of those individuals aren't lethal. aren't active. and then we focus a lot more energy on those that are. >> so let me ask you about the payment portion of it. obviously, the program has to do with a variety of interventions. at least one part is this stipend. i was thinking aft paraable of

the fatted calf. why isn't the money going as a stipend to the kids making "a"s or being on the honor roll. why pay folks who we know are most likely to engage in potential violent action? >> sure. well, we're definitely equally concerned about all youth populations is critical. unfortunately, for this population, a lot of money has been raised in the past to reduce the activity and statistics created by them. but rarely did the resources ever find their way to these particular young people. nor did they reach or meet them. we saw that as a serious problem. and so, as an allowance per se, and these young men helping us and partnering with us to reduce

firearm results, we thought it was a good idea. and not all the men are receiving this allowance, this privilege of a stipend. but we believe that psychologically, it was important for to us reward these young men for their partnership and their contributions to increasing and improving our city's public safety. >> can it work in bigger cities? >> you know, i don't know. and that's the way that, you know, gets asked a lot. we didn't think about that, obviously, when we were developing the strategy, when it came up, you know, context is so very important. obviously, people talk about scaling it up to much larger cities. i don't know. the other thing i think you have to take into consideration, and you can never underestimate, is the importance of leadership. our city manager has stood behind us through some very difficult times. and, you know, that doesn't happen all the time. and the folks we have on the ground, doing the work, unlike a

lot of outreach apparatus in other cities, we don't have a whole lot of turnaround. these are men who themselves have had backgrounds like some of the other young men we are engaging. and they are now vested city employees. and they are the most stable consistent part of our work. they're champions. they're heroes in these communities. and they have a great deal of credibility and legitimacy because they've been stable and consistent over the last four or five years. >> devone boggan talking about richmond, california. i don't care, five months without murder is five months without murder. >> we're excited about that. thank you. up next, we're going to chicago. you already know the story of that city's ongoing violence with the streets and young people. but you may not know the story of master chef star contestant josh marks. his story is next.

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many of the facts involved in the death of a chicago man last october have by now become a popular refrain in news reports about the violence that has plagued the city. a young african-american male who died after being shot in an alley on the city's south side. the gun that killed him obtained illegally. with a permitted retailer but on the street passed hand to acqua. we are by now well versused in the details of that story but it doesn't encompass the full scope of the consequences of gun violence because the young man in this story, used that gun to take his own life. in this case, we didn't learn his name in the headlines after his death. this was somebody we already knew, josh marks the 26-year-old breakout star of the show "master chef."

the story is sold in the chicago magazine july issue. the story begins just before josh's life ended after his mother after hearing he was spotted wandering the neighborhood with a gun drove frantically to reach him before too late. it was at the end of the year after becoming an overnight as a celebrity. the panic attack quickly descended into a day-to-day mental illness. and his mother was trying to put together the treatment that her son needed after budget cuts slashed the city's system for mental health care. writes smith, she set off on what would be a proven search for long-term psychiatric issues that come with such a diagnosis. much of her search was trying to figure out the limits options available for someone who is uninsured. in the end, she would lose the

fight to save her son, not only because of the lack of accessible mental health care, but also because of the easy access to available guns. with me, jonathan meddle, director of the university of center for medicine. donna barnes, president and co-founder for the national organization of people of color against suicide. she's also a professor of sociology at howard university. and eugene o'donnell. he's a former new york police department. but first joining me from chicago is brian smith, the senior writer of chicago magazine who wrote the story about josh marks. brian, nice to have you. >> good morning. >> what does this story, i read it, i was so compelled about it. what does it tell us about gun violence in america that is normally left out of the conversation? >> well, i think you put your finger on it, easy access to guns on the streets.

it's been said often that chicago has very strict gun laws and yet has so much gun violence. but the issue is, anyone who wants a gun can go right across the border to indiana and bring guns back and there's also gun show loopholes so that the supply is always there. so i think the first thing it says is that there has to be some kind of, you know, common sense gun measures beyond just a city. >> right. >> so that people can't go right across the border and grab guns. >> stick with me a second, bryan pipe want to go to and i can't help but notice the similarity between the california story covered a few months ago where the family is rushing to try to get to the young person who has the gun and that ended up being a story of homicide.

this time, the family was rushing to get to a young person with a gun and it ends up being suicide. >> for people who read the article, it's about race, it's about social class, it's about access. but i think the broader issue to my mind, the nra has done a good job of a conversation about strangers, this crazy person is going to come kill us and let's set policy this way. it turns out gun sue siesd are two to one more likely than gun homicides. we kill each other 19,000 times a year. unfortunately, this is a question of gun access. if you look at a map of the united states and look at where gun suicides happens, it's happens where it's the easiest to get a gun. so, for me, this question of somebody in a dire moment like this, how hard is it for them to get a gun. and i hear stories like this all the time. >> almost, when you look at that

map, it's where gun homicides occur versus where gun suicides occur. and i guess part of what i'm wondering here, with this young man, we know the story. the story that's written, in part, because we know his name before he takes his life. but when -- my producers were talking about the fact that gun suicides are double the size the number of the rate as homicides. we are a little bit stunned because it's not part of -- do we not care about suicide? >> it's unbelievable. >> may i take that? >> we lose what 32,000 people to gunfire every year. and two-thirds of that is suicides. and it's never even really mentioned that often. even the mass murders that we have, and they kill people, those are suicides. when they wake up in the morning, they're not trying to say i'm going to kill some mother. they wake up and they're going

to kill themselves and take other people with them. the destructive behavior is still suicidal behavior. we have very low rates of suicide in our african-american communities. but very high rates of suicidal behavior. >> substance abuse? >> right, substance abuse. all of these things that they know is going to eventually end their life. >> bryan, let me come back to you here you wanted to jump in. >> yeah, melissa, i think you put your finger right on it. you know, we hear these stats about suicide rates. and are shocked and alarmed by them. and as you said, we don't hear about that. and i think the reason this story resonated so powerfully with people, is that it's a personal story, it wasn't an abstract story about numbers and facts and figures. it's about somebody as you said, people know, people liked he was a kind, gentle, very charming person. one of us, anybody.

you know, it could have been anybody. and so that when he started to struggle with mental health issues, and his mother, you know, the ordeal that his mother went through to try and get him help is laid out in a way that's personal and intimate. i think that's when people -- it really hits them in the heart. and they can see the sort of crucial nature of needing to change things. beyond, you know, just some numbers and statistics and light papers. >> so, what i so respected and appreciated about the way you wrote the piece, it is both that personal story but you frame it in away of being constructive and personal. thank you for the piece. also joining us this morning, when we come back, i'm bringing eugene in, i do want to talk specifically about that aspect.

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eliquis. [ male announcer ] ask your doctor today if eliquis is right for you. the october day that josh marks died was not the first time he pointed a gun at himself and pulled the trigger. just months before, he shot himself in the ear while sitting in his car. his family concluded it was either a desperate act to quiet the voice in his head. afterwards, he attacked the campus officer who responded and tried to take his gun. it's ultimately took a second officer with pepper spray and being tackled by three additional officers to subdue him. after being taken for treatment, marks was charged with assault on a police officer and locked up in the county jail. this isn't just josh's story. a 911 call that brings the

police instead of the paramedics and a health crisis that lands the person suffering not in a hospital, but in a jail. how prepared or ill-prepared are police officers on the street to cope with a moment like josh marks, someone who is not homicidal, but suicidal, who is mentally ill? >> josh marks doesn't need the police. josh marks needs a reliable mental health infrastructure missing in the country. we have this notion that 70,000 police departments can all sort of find their own policies. when it happens in somebody's town, a person is hurt by the police or killed by the police. the reality is that the police are the worst equipped people to deal with these issues. they bring deadly force into this situations. they're oriented towards force. they're oriented towards law breaking rather than a

caring-type capacity. by the way, we're not -- there was this past week, that said cities are criminalizing homelessness. >> yes. >> and how does that measure with people who need help that does not involve the police. >> as a matter of fact, we saw in recent weeks of the woman being beaten by a police officer. we know that is a circumstance of someone who is mentally ill. and so we know that, we see that, of course, the first responder -- it's hard to even look at. but i do keep wondering is this a training issue? is this because she should never have been there? because she should have been in a caring mental health environment? what is the solution in a moment like? >> training probably is one of the issues. i mean there could be a plethora of issues but police officers really do need to be trained on how to recognize the signs when dealing with someone in a crisis, a mental health crisis. and discern whether that's

criminal behavior or mental health issues. >> and you're thinking there's always the presumption of the criminal and the force rather than the caring? >> it's hard for a police officer to go from the enforcemeenforce ment mind-set they bring in. the more they know about mental health, the more they feel comfortable and the vacuum of fear that sometimes is there. that's your worst enemy, not knowing. >> much of the stigma is also a story about race. and it's pretty unavoidable. if you look at also the stories about other kinds of stories. i speak a lot, as you now, to psychiatrists and police officers. and what i argue is that if you want to train the police officers or doctors, intervene into mental illness stigma, increasingly, stigma is very closely aligned to racism. >> yep. >> and this is really a story about -- >> the ability to see that

african-american woman as sick, not as dangerous. to see josh marks who is a very tall, big kid on the south side of chicago, your presumption is. >> and in a way, you know, we've changed the treatment system from one of caring or recovery to one of incarceration in a way. automatically, the automatic response is this angry black man in front of me is a criminal. so really to address the question of mental illness stigma in this way, we also have to have a deeper conversation about the ways that race and mental illness stigma intercept. >> we've talked a little bit here about intersecting when the viewer is -- particularly a white police officer, but what about race and mental health stigma within the community itself and the challenge of getting help and assistance? because we sometimes don't see, as you pointed out, the destructive behaviors. we see them as bad actions rather than responses to

illness, depression, psychosis. >> stigma is a barrier to getting the help they need. that's so unfortunate. if i can get a message out there to these young people who don't really know what's going on with them, but know there's something that's not right, they need to, please, talk to somebody, get the help they need, instead of trying to take care of it themselves. clearly, i think josh was trying to take care of himself, but he just couldn't. >> as you point out, the ability to get the help you need has everything to do with whether or not you have insurance, whether or not you live in a city where this is public -- this is a structural question. how do we also push the policymakers? >> it's a human dignity question. the people who really need to step up are police chiefs and sheriffs. they know this is the wrong idea, to be criminalizing people that need help. the jails in particular, when they look in their jail population, how prevalent these issues are. law enforcement has its own depression issues, speaking of

mental health. >> i like that idea, in part because there's stigma for the mentally ill. there's a position that law enforcement officers that have that not stigmatized. to the extent that law enforcement officers can be the ones out front calling for something different, maybe it would lead to policy changes. i have no time, i tape two hour shows and still feel like i have no time. i want to thank my guests for joining me. just for beginning to touch this very important topic. there is more ahead. please stay with us. brightens and fights stains. so now i can focus on more pressing matters. wow! isn't it beautiful? your sweet peppers aren't next to your hot peppers. [ gasps ] [ sarah ] that's my tide. what's yours? [ gasps ] virtually all your important legal matters in just minutes. now it's quicker and easier for you to start your business, protect your family, and launch your dreams. at legalzoom.com we put the law on your side.

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stay with msnbc throughout the day today for continuing coverage for the downings of malaysian flight 17 and the ground invasion under way in gaza. right now, it's time for a preview of "weekends with alex witt." >> we're picking up with both those topics, with the confusion at the crash site of malaysian

airlines flight 17. bodies being taken to the scene, but by where and to whom? and reports of a march particular item and the horrors are real. and the lockerbie bombing. you'll hear from a special agent who investigated and what he has to say about the situation at the scene. following the money in afghanistan, the man in charge of accounting for all the cash spent will be my guest and some of what he has to say might alarm you. new information on how billions of american tax dollars are being spent. stemming the crisis. why the flood crossing the border has suddenly eased. star. we've created tax free zones throughout the state. and startup ny companies will be investing hundreds of millions of dollars in jobs and infrastructure. thanks to startup ny, businesses can operate tax free for 10 years. no property tax. no business tax. and no sales tax. which means more growth for your business, and more jobs.

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new numbers today on what exactly israel is finding on the ground as the conflict there expa expands. following the money. the staggering numbers behind the afghanistan war. i will talk to the man in charge of examining where u.s. tax dollars got spent. lowehello, everyone. welcome to "weekends with alex witt." we have new answers about the investigation and the access to the crash site in the rebel-controlled region of eastern ukraine. a team of european monitors says it was given brief access today to eight square miles of the crash site. just today after officials were forced to leave that area by armed gunmen. >> cooperation improves over time and we have better access today. >> what do you think of the investigation? >> was it enough