and russia or might it actually have the opposite effect? deeper into gaza. new numbers today on what exactly israel is finding on the ground as the conflict there expa expands. following the money. the staggering numbers behind the afghanistan war. i will talk to the man in charge of examining where u.s. tax dollars got spent. lowehello, everyone. welcome to "weekends with alex witt." we have new answers about the investigation and the access to the crash site in the rebel-controlled region of eastern ukraine. a team of european monitors says it was given brief access today to eight square miles of the crash site. just today after officials were forced to leave that area by armed gunmen. >> cooperation improves over time and we have better access today. >> what do you think of the

investigation? >> was it enough access? >> the insurance tent site is rather large we understand because beyond what we have seen, but we will consult with those in charge here to see whether we get access to other sites. >> there is growing concern over the voice recorders. a separatist leader in eastern ukraine says no black boxes have been found but earlier a military leader of the same group said authorities had recovered the devices from the wreckage. here's what the european monitors are saying today. >> the black boxes are part of what we on serb here. we have now made special investigations into this matter. the mission is not here to investigate the cause or any other matter of this incident. the mission is here to on serb and verify facts to the member states. >> meantime, the ukrainian government says russian separatists took 38 bodies from the crash scene to a morgue in donetsk. the government is accusing the rebels of looting at the crash

site. here's what officials are saying. >> it is possible that local people here have been using the credit cards of some of those victims. so suggesting perhaps that some kind of looting has happened and they have those credit cards. >> the 298 people on board that flight came from at least 12 nations. one american with duel citizenship was also on that flight. for more on the investigation in eastern ukraine, nbc's kier simmons is joining me. >> we just arrived at the crash site and it is deeply disturbing. you've been talking about the fact that the bodies have been left here for two days. the first thing that hits you when you get here is the smell. we are now watching for authorities, if you like, carrying away bodies on stretchers. we don't know where they're then

going to be taken to but at least some sign that the efforts are now being made to remove the victims of this from the field in which they've -- since the accident itself. where i'm standing now, everywhere i look is debris. we are right in the middle of it. across in front of me now, it looks like a piece of wing with the malaysian airline colors on it. about 15 feet long, i would say, torn. it's not the whole week, it's a piece of it, just torn, torn away. if i looked around in the other direction, there is what you would have seen in, you know, that black mess really. it's not smoking anymore. so what it is is a wide singed charred piece of ground with the plane around it. what looks like some type of blue seats. sometimes you can identify what you're seeing and sometimes you

just can't because it's so burned or it's such a piece of it. another section of the plane looks like a piece of fuselage that is just on its side, lying on its side with another piece right next to it. and then really, really upsetting, people's possessions everywhere. suitcases. we've seen a cuddly toy. a handwritten diary. it looks as if someone's opened, to be honest, to take a look at what's been written, which is upsetting in itself, and then we don't know what the words are. looks like later in dutch. but perhaps someone was writing that on the plane. and then amongst that debris is a couple of life jackets, which we assume they wouldn't even have a chance to get out from underneath the seats. but that was just some of the picture here. >> you're doing an extraordinary job of painting a picture for us with your words.

you mentioned the authorities taking away the bodies some two days after the crash, the decomposing body smell you have there. when you say authorities, is it clear which authorities they are? >> yeah, it's clearly just the rebels who are running this part of the eastern ukraine. it's clearly them. there are some people in military fatigues. some men in civilian clothes who are standing across the road. just to make clear, there is, now, a small attempt to prevent journalists and anyone else from getting closer. the crash site is so wide, i'm trying to think -- i think pretty much every direction i look in is debris. it's impossible, for this group, really, to close it off. as you might expect in a situation like this, it's impossible -- maybe it isn't,

but they're certainly not doing it. this one piece of road is blocked by a group of civilians. further down, i can see ambulances. so there are paramedics of some kind here. we don't know who they are with. but just to be clear, this region of ukraine, eastern ukraine, is pro-russian separatists militia. we had to come through a number of checkpoints. they wanted to know who we were. there's no doubt they're in charge. that raises the question about where exactly the bodies will be taken to and if the black boxes are found, they will go too. >> in your earlier report, you talked about something that has been speculated. which is pretty horrific. and that is that the credit cards from the victims on the plane are being used potentially. i should add also that the prime minister of the self-proclaimed donetsk people republic also mentioned that as being a possibility in a news

conference. are you hearing anything more about that? >> well, he had to say, that's what we were reporting when we spoke last, and so that's what he said. we just reported what he said. but what we think, because we tried to question him further as you'd expect afterwards. what we thing he was reflecting, his reports in ukrainian media, that this may have happened or this had happened. what he was saying is it may have happened. i can't tell you it hasn't happened because basically he kind didn't have control of the crash site. the trouble with all of this is, you know, this is a war zone in which there are competing interests and conflicting sides. so the ukrainian media is reporting that. you think there would be a motivation to put out that report, even if it's

speculative. we can't report what the leader of the militia is -- i mean, he's saying himself this place is locked down so they can't tell you who's able to go through these possessions. i mean, alex, people's possessions are lying everywhere. as you would expect, i haven't touched anything, but it is possible -- it would be possible, it looks like maybe people have, or maybe the effect of the crash, of the accident, blew people's suitcases open. it looks like it is possible, people have just opened people's possessions. it's possible. so, you know, it is a really -- i mean, the malaysian government, like, a malaysian government source said to me he didn't think people were being treated with respect and just in terms of people's possessions. >> indicating, as suspected, that crash side is anything but view secure at this point. you talked about the hurdles you had to go to get to that site.

there were reports of gunfire because this is a war zone. do you feel safe there right now? >> yeah, we do actually. we have -- we work in these kind of conditions a lot, alex, so not everyone would feel safe i guess. a lot of people with weapons, kalashnikovs. there are a lot of militia around. people in army fatigues. military vehicles. tanks. but we don't feel threatened. it doesn't feel like this is a very, very tense atmosphere right now. the trouble is, you'll know this from experience, the feeling can change very quickly in these situations, particularly, you know, if they get unhappy with some of the things they think are being reported or anything like that, then people can turn against you pretty quickly. so we're aware of that, but

right now, just feeling threatened right now. >> let's hope you stay safe. excellent reporting. i appreciate it. president obama is monitoring the investigation of camp david now after speaking with german chancellor angela merkel about the possibility of further sanctions against russia. nbc's kristen welker's at the white house. what have you learned? >> the two leaders agreed there needs to be a cease-fire, and that russia needs to stop sending heavy weaponry to these russianbacked separatists. according to the call, white house officials say the two leaders discussed what additional actions might be required, so that speaks, to your point, the possibility of additional sarnnctions. that comes as the white house, this administration, the european leaders are really starting to build a case against russia. president obama yesterday speaking from the briefing room, points to the very strong

possibility that that plane was shot down by russian-backed separatists with weaponry that was provided by russia. what's happening now is president obama is trying to get the u.s. on the same page with the eu when it comes to sanctions. that's important because remember this past week, president obama announced the toughest sanctions against russia yet. however, the eu did not join the u.s. in levying those incredibly harsh sanctions. so what the u.s. wants to do now is to get on the same page with the european allies if, it is, in fact, determined that additional sarnnctions are necessary. president obama calling for an international investigation and stressing the importance of allowing investigators to get into the site there, so they can get to their investigation and build a rock solid case against russia if they are, in fact.

>> let's get more to the difficulties officials are facing there. we bring in our guest, an atf retired special agent in charge. we have the ukrainian government today accusing russia of helping separatist rebels destroy evidence at the crash site. the rebels are denying that, we should say. is there anything the russians or the rebels could do at the scene to literally alter the investigation? >> they could take the black box, the voice and data recorder, and if they have taken them, you know, we're never going to see them, they're not going to turn them over. forensically, there would be explosive residue on the plane from the missile strike and there may be evidence of the missile. short of that, though, there's not much evidentiary value there. there's no evidentiary value really in the possessions of the passengers. there's a need to preeverybody did the dignities of the family.

i think what happens is we put touch emphasis here. when really if you put all the facts together, that the intelligence community, on the ground from the ukraine together, we really know what happened. a missile struck the plane, fired from the rebel area with a russian missile, we know that. >> well, in fact, we are sending a couple ntsb investigators there to the crash site. does the u.s. really need anyone on the ground to investigate? can we not piece together what we need to from the intelligence you're suggesting? >> see, that's the point, alex, exactly right. i think we should be careful. we should go there, do what we're doing. that's appropriate. but we should not put anyone at risk to find out what we already know. remember, there's not going to be a criminal trial here. the jury here is the world. you're operating with a former kgb guy, putin, would wants plus rabbit deniability. what you want to do with the

proof, which you are -- >> okay, it looks like we lost our satellite signal there with jim cavanaugh. okay, thank you very much, jim cavanaugh, i hope you can hear that thanks. ahead, blame and consequences. who is responsible for the downing of malaysian airlines flight 17 and will they be punished? and a new report from gaza as israel expands the ground war there. you guys mind warming this fella up for me? i'm gonna go back down, i saw some recyclables. make it happen with verizon xlte. find a car service. we've doubled our 4g lte bandwidth in cities coast to coast. thanks! sure. we've got a spike in temperature. so save the day... don't worry, i got this... oh yeah, i see your spaceship's broken. with xlte on largest, most reliable network. get 50% off smartphones like the new lg g3. [ cat meows ] ♪ ♪ da-da-da-da-da, bum-da, bum-da ♪ ♪ bum-da, bum-da

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turning now to the crisis in the middle east. israel's ground offensive has entered its third day with no sign of slowing down. nbc's chief foreign correspondent richard engel joins us. with a good day to you, richard. does it feel at all like it's quieting down, like it's about to get worse? can you interpret the way it

feels there? >> it certainly doesn't feel like it's quieting down. all afternoon, we've been watching and listening to israeli strikes. we've been watching rockets coming out of gaza, heading towards israel. most of the fighting seems to be heaviest just beyond gaza city. we are facing east. just where this city starts to end and -- beyond that, you'll see an open area, then we go into israel. that area between the edge of gaza and israel has seen very intense fighting today. it certainly doesn't see any sign of letting up. thousands of israeli reinforcements have been deployed to the edge of gaza, as israeli officials say they could be used to expand israel's ongoing ground campaign. for now, israeli tanks and artillery haven't pushed deep into the gaza strip and they've stayed out of big urban areas.

israel says it wants to destroy tunnels hamas uses to sneak from gaza into israel and attack israelis. but the israeli military is attacking buildings and densely populated gaza city too. sometimes they'll first fire a small bomb, a warning shot, for people to evacuate. then this. [ explosion ] the bomb alert by bomb doesn't always work. and it always always used. more than 300 palestinians have been killed in the last two weeks. under fire in gaza, hamas is still firing rockets into israel, around 100 a day. but they're having little effect. israelis run to shelters, but most of the rockets fall in open areas or have been shot down by israeli defenses. israelis are taking casualties here, however. one israeli civilian was killed

today by a palestinian rocket. four other civilians were injured in the same incident. and then a short while ago, the israeli military said that two israeli soldiers were killed in an attack by hamas by this morning. hamas militants using one of those tunnels in the southern gaza strip, managed to sneak under the border and kill two israeli soldiers. one of them, a reserve major. another, a young soldier. these are the kind of attacks that would only push the israeli military to escalate this operation even further. >> hey, richard, there was a rather stunning piece in your report there. a piece of video. you said a bomb alert by bomb? what is that? can you explain that? >> the israelis in their effort to try to limit civilian casualties have a number of ways of telling palestinians that they should evacuate an area. sometimes they will send text messages. one other times, they will

telephone people directly. we were speaking to a farmer who lives in a conflict area and he told me he got a phone call. someone on the other end of it knew his name. his name was abdullah. when he answered the phone, a voice said, abdullah, get out of your home, we're about to destroy it. other times, however, when they don't have a way of reaching the house or they're not convinced, sometimes they will -- the israeli military will drop a small bomb, often fired by a drone, on the roof, and palestinians know what that means by now, and it means to get out, because a very short time later, usually a minute or a couple of minutes, a much larger bomb will come and destroy the structure. this system doesn't always work and according to palestinian health officials, more than 40 palestinians were killed today alone. >> richard engel, thank you very much, from gaza city, appreciate the report. joining me, democratic congresswoman karen bass, member of the house foreign affairs

committee. the bomb alert by bomb. an extraordinary way to inform, don't you think? >> exactly. >> you drop leaflets, you make phone calls, but that other one, as richard says, it does not always work properly. let's talk about the death toll. it is well over 100 by latest count. the barrage of rockets back and forth has not let up at all. when you talk about the u.s. role in this, what do you see as being something specifically that the united states can do that will work? >> well, i think, you know, the united states putting pressure on all parties to say there absolutely needs to be a cease-fire and people need to go back to negotiations. we know that secretary kerry certainly tried. i'm certainly hoping those efforts will step back up again. all of us hate to see this situation. >> we certainly do. but it's not like we haven't said that before. >> exactly. >> is there anything we can do to put pressure on leaders on both sides of this conflict to listen and react accordingly?

>> right, exactly. i think we need to continue doing everything we possibly can. i also know the secretary-general of the united states, ban ki-moon, is going over and is attempting to intervene as well. so hopefully that will at least stop what is happening right now. >> we'll move now to the downing of malaysian flight 17. what is the latest you're hearing about russia's involvement here, be it directly or indirectly through the separatists? >> well, you know, it is going to be increasingly difficult for russia to say they have no role in this. the fact they are blocking -- and the separatists are blocking any inspectors or the investigation from continuing. i feel so bad for the families that have lost their loved ones and knowing that those bodies are just sitting there and they can't be recovered is just a crime in and of itself. so i'm really hoping that the russians will call upon the separatists, whom they support, who they are providing with weapons and training, et cetera.

that they will tell them they have to allow the investigation to move forward. >> there are reports, ma'am, not confirmed yet, but that intelligence has picked up this sam launcher of these missiles, that's believed to have brought down the plane, that it was removed from the location where they believe it was launched and is now back inside russia. if that turns out to be true, how damning is that? >> i think it's very damning, but also the fact that this piece of machinery is extremely complex and that there really isn't any evidence that the separatists have the capacity to operate that on their own, without training, without technical assistance from the russians. so we know they have a vested interest in not letting the world know their direct involvement. now, i'm sure when i go back to washington and we have session on tuesday on the foreign affairs committee, i'm sure we're going to be hearing from this right away. if there's not hearings or briefing, i'm sure we're going to get involved. >> there is one confirmation of

an american death here dual citizen with dutch citizenship. how extensive should the united states role be here in terms of punitive measures against whomover is responsible? >> i thing we should do all we can. the president now expanding sanctions i think will have a definite impact. of course, for those sanctions to really have the full impact, it has to have the european participation. but he's extended it quite a bit further than what he did originally. >> to the extent that europe will get involved and extent sanctions as well, how hopeful are you they will do that? because you said it will not be effective without them coming all on board. >> that's right. i know they have extended it further. they absolutely will have to be at the table to really have an impact to have the russians take a step back from where they are now. >> how do you faunt fquantify a proportional response to a strategy like this? >> i don't know that you can.

i couldn't imagine we or even the ukraines having retribution for this. this was such an egregious act. a crime against the entire world. for people to feel that you can't even fly safely in a commercial plane. and so i think that the real impact is going to have to be for the separatists to stop, for there to be a cease-fire and negotiations to begin. and for russia to play a constructive role. >> democratic congressman from my hometown of los angeles, karen bass. dutch citizens make up nearly two reason thirds of those killed in the crash. how the netherlands is coping with this unimaginable tragedy. later, new numbers from the southwest border that suggest the picture there may be changing. when it comes to good nutrition...i'm no expert. that would be my daughter --

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part the state which has been racked by hot dry weather and lightning strikes. whole communities have been forced to evacuate. the family of a california woman taken hostage and killed during a violent bank heist involving a gun battle and high speed chase during the town of compton is speaking out. her husband remembers her as a loving wife and mother. >> what happened to misty is a nightmare. >> she was one of my best friends. >> well, police say she was used as a human shield by the three heavily armed suspects before they were killed in a hail of gunfire. the surviving suspect is in custody, facing charges of robbery and attempted murder. a super typhoon is heading to vietnam prompting officials to evacuate thousands. the storm slammed southern china friday after causing havoc through the philippines. eight people were killed in china. at least 77 in the philippines. winds from that storm were clocked at nearly 140 miles an

hour. let's go now to the weather on these storms. summer storms in the south and a heat wave in the midwest. nbc meteorologist alex wallace is here with the forecast. hi, alex. >> good saturday to you, alex. wet weather, across parts of the southeast. the storm system, very slow to move. that's going to keep things on the dreary side, zblouft throno through the weekend but the early part of net week as well. rumbles of thunder through parts of the carolinas. tomorrow, some of the same areas having to deal with this. the weekend not looking so bright on many of these locales. some of that rain is going to try to make its way into the northeast. but high pressure sort of blocking in here, acting as a a brick wall. we'll stay mostly dry through the weekend. generally cool out there as well. today, clouds overcast but dry. by tomorrow is when we see things lightening up. it will be a little warm back to

the west. a warm-up on the way for the midwest. today, low to mid-80s. tomorrow, we're starting to see some areas approach 90 degrees and it gets hotter by next week. heat, it is returning in a big way to the midwest. this disaster is being called vladimir putin's lockerbie bombing. hear from a special agent who investigated the flight and what he had to say about what happened at the scene. did you get my e-mail? [ man ] i did. so, what'd you think of the house? did you see the school rating? oh, you're right. hey, babe, i got to go. bye, daddy. have a good day at school, okay?

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you are saying "frog protection"? fraud. fro-g. frau-d. i think we're on the same page. at discover, we treat you like you'd treat you. fraud protection. get it at discover.com welcome back to "weekends with alex witt." forensics teams are fanning out to collect dna samples. the netherlands is the country hit hardest by the disaster. more than half of the 298 victims were dutch. families are sorting their way through the sock and anguish. >> it's a young funny couple, always laughing, always together. >> very, very sad. couldn't believe it.

>> nbc's katie turess in amsterdam with more. >> all the questions surrounding what's going to happen with the remains. family members, loved ones, wondering when and how they'll be able to get the remains of their loved ones so they can bury them, remember them. this country is in a state of shock. this country is in mourning right now. the majority of the passengers were dutch. now at least 192 out of the 298 on board. to put it into some perspective, in terms of population size, that's now on a scale similar to 9/11. and this country is really reeling over it. you're seeing memorials pop up all around. there's one at the airport outside of the malaysian airlines terminal. only growing by the hour. there's another one in a small town about half an hour from here, where we spoke to friends of one couple who was vacationing. they were on the plane headed to a vacation when they lost their lives. their friends remember them as a

happy smiling couple, very popular in town. now flowers line the outside of their family shop in remembrance of them. generally, this was an international tragedy with international passengers on board it even one american citizen. he held dual citizenship with the netherlands. was born in new jersey. grew up here in the netherlands. we spoke to his grandfather. his grandfather was just having a hard time trying to come to terms with everything that had happened. alex. >> he's not alone in that. thank you, katie tur. we invite all of you to watch "meet the press" tomorrow. you can check your local listings. new numbers out today show the surge of undocumented children crossing the mexican border illegally is beginning to slow. this comes as more charter flights are bringing women and children back to honduras from the u.s. and heated testimony on capitol hill about the future of the children. >> how can we demand that countries neighboring syria take

in nearly 3 million refugees but turn our backs on tens of thousands of children from our own neighbors? if we short change due process, i believe that congress and this administration will be sending many children back to their deaths. >> joining me right now is the lady you saw right there. author of "enrique's journey." with a welcome. i want to talk about these new numbers. border patrol agents have found fewer than 500 children this week. but compare that with a couple of those last week. what do you think has led to this drop? >> i think the drop is concerning in a sense that the focus of the administration and too many democrats like

representative has been let's get these countries to stop these children from coming and get mexico and guatemala to stop transporting even more of these children to our borders. basically expedite their removal and i see this as very troubling, because basically we -- many of these children, i returned after a decade away from honduras last month. these children are largely not coming for economic reasons or to reunify with a parent. that's not their primary driver. the primary driver is they face enormous violence. they have been threatened several times. they are fleeing for their lives. these children really are not economic migrants. i understand the impulse to deport people who are economic migrants. i believe when e are a nation o laws.

these children are refugees, 40% to 60% of them would qualify as refugees and would qualify legally to stay in this country, if they had a tear full hearing. that's what we're trying to short change. i worry we're basically sealing them into these countries where they have been threatened times. these 10-year-olds have been threatened by nor karco hostile. >> i want to talk about honduras. you spent three months on and off riding on top of freight trains through mexico. what has changed? you mentioned these cartels. that they're almost militia minded. has that been the change? is that what's sending these kids into harm's way? >> i went to honduras a decade ago to write the story. there are millions of single

moms who have come here. they can't feed their kids. so they leave their children and they come north to work. this was the story of a boy enrique who hasn't seen -- his mom leaves him when he was just 5 years old. after 11 years, he's desperate to be with her. he sets off on his own and rides through mexico on top of the train of death. it is a modern day odyssey these children go on. a decade ago, they were largely coming to reunify out of economic necessity. but the real shift in the neighborhood when i went back last month was yes, ten years ago, there were gangs, there was violence. but there's been a huge increase in the violence and the reach and viciousness of this violence in this neighborhood, because now the narco cartels and people who report to them control this neighborhood and they control the schools, the elementary

schools. what i saw was a boy, christian, 11-year-old boy, who said, you know, they're trying to get me to use marijuana and crack inside my elementary school. they're threatening to beat me up if i don't do this. they're trying to hook these children to use drugs and then work with them to serve as lookouts, to rob, to extort people in the neighborhood and later to kill people. so it really is this movement of drugs that used to go up the caribbean corridor from colombia, the united states has spent $18 billion to disrupt that and that flow has gone inland. so all these cocaine flights are landing in honduras and there is a battle to control this turf and the children are caught in the middle. >> i appreciate it so much. thank you. still ahead, military analysis on flight 17. how do investigators know where the missile was fired from and how can that information help us determine who shot it down?

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we are hearing more stories about those killed in the flight 17 tragedy. one described as an optimistic doctoral student. now, more from bloomington, indiana. >> alex, good afternoon. one of her friends says she let nothing stand in her way. this is a 25-year-old woman who let nothing keep her from doing what she wants. she seemed to take on every challenge that she could and strongly believed her chosen field of science improved the lives of others. her most recent project was working on an anti-cancer drug that is showing promise in treating alzheimer's. she was pursuing her doctorate here and also taught several courses. her ocean passion, rowing. a member of the team here. in 2011, worked as the stroke of

her boat. that means she set the rhythm. it was a natural fit, say friend, given her leadership skills and positive personality. meanwhile, university officials are holding off, for now, on planning a memorial. they say they may want to wait until the fall when the majority of students return to the classroom. it will be a time for comfortable and hopefully closure. back to you. >> it is summertime there. i'm sure when you go and talk to the campus, which probably is not as populated as it would be throughout the school year, it's got to be shocking for people to think one of their own died in the tragedy the world is focusing on. >> it is very shocking. it feels like it is a world away from these leafy streets of this all-american campus here in indiana. it is really hitting home. i was talking to one woman yesterday. we started off talking about this woman. it was very calm. by the end of the conversation, her eyes were just filled with tears for the loss of this young woman. a man on a bicycle shouted out

she was a great person as he rode by. so the information is coming out. people are learning about what happened and who this young woman was and it really is hitting home. >> thank you for telling part of her story. appreciate it. as families and friends of the victim mourn, the international community is searching for answers for who exactly fired that missile at flight 17 and how they may be held accountable. joining me now is the professor of security studies at kinging college london and direct of the international study for the radicalization. i want to talk about u.s. officials who now believe the russian military was directly involved. so tell me what that involvement would look like. advisers embedded with the separatists? actual russian troops operating in ukraine? what is direct involvement? >> so direct involvement can mean different things. it can mean direct support in terms of providing weapons, providing training. and of course also having

advisers on the ground. you have to understand this surface to air missile system that apparently was used in this case. it's a very complex system. normally, it takes about six months for people to learn to operate the system and perhaps it was precisely because people did not have that sort of training that we saw this terrible tragedy happening. but you do need advisers to run as sophisticated a rebel uprising as we've seen over the past few months in donetsk. >> the international community is calling for those responsible to be held accountable. what does that look like? those there by the missile launcher? those that were the individuals? what will be the likelihood of finding them? are we talking about a larger body being held accountable? >> personally, i believe that the people were responsible for this will never go to any kind of trial. i cannot foresee that happening. i do think that it will be a

political sense of holding these people to account. that means, for example, increased sanction for the russians. it means more assistance for the ukrainian government in order to bring about a situation where finally a negotiated settlement becomes possible. i see that in europe for the first time where people were quite lukewarm about sanctions against russia. people aren't demanding for their politicians to become more involved and take a stuffer stance against russia because the popular sentiment, the momentum, is very much that putin is indirectly, at the very least, was grossly negligent in providing these weapons systems to the separatists. >> i was talking with colonel jackson earlier and he told me flatout there are going to be no repercussions. do you agree? >> there's not going to be a trial. there's not going to be a direct

holding to account of the exact people who fired the shots. i agree with that. i do think the sort of cost benefit analysis in european capitals is shifting. right now, it's kind of look warm. we go along with the russian -- with the americans because they have an interest in pursuing this. but what has happened in the past 48 hours has got lots of people interested in this. people are enraged not only in holland but other countries across europe. they want their leaders to become more involved. they want the situation to be resolved. i think in terms of political momentum, we will consequences. >> all right, professor, thank you so much. ahead, an fbi special agent who investigated the bombing of pan am flight 103. what he has to say. ! fancy feast broths. they're irresistabowl... completely unbelievabowl... totally delectabowl. real silky smooth or creamy broths. everything she's been waiting for.

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president obama is discussing the possibility of more sanctions against russia

following the crash of malaysia airlines flight 17. joining me now, david macnamara. what have you learned about the new call? >> the president did talk to chancellor merkel and david cameron in england. i think what the white house is trying to do is stress the need for broader sanctions. not moving as quickly as the administration would like on sanctions. the white house is ramping up the sanctions on the energy sector and banking sector. i think the white house is going to try to isolate putin further. they believe over time this sanctions process will work. right now, that's what you're looking at. the white house also talking about sending investigators to this crash scene and wanting a thorough report which then could drive additional pressure. >> i'm curious what the options are for the united states right now without the world support, the world community support. >> i mean, that's absolutely the problem.

there's not been talk of any kind of military action by the u.s. but i think, you know, stronger support for the ukrainian government and i think continued diplomatic pressure. obviously, that has not worked with vladimir putin. i think you're starting to see as your previous guest said other countries having more pressure on their governments as well. if there's some, you know, stronger evidence, direct ties to putin government, which everybody suspects right now, that's going to be -- could possibly be a game changer. still no talk of taking any kind of military action here. >> there's this issue. there's also the conflict that's raging between hamas and israel right now. where do the president's priorities lie? >> it's really complicated. both of these issues have been inflamed in recent days. the president spent time talking directly to benjamin netanyahu. he said at the white house yesterday while talking about the plane crash, he made a point to say in his conversation with netanyahu, the president offered support for this ground invasion but also signaled there are limits maybe to the u.s.

patience here, saying this would be directly targeted at these tunnels, these terrorist opportuni tunnels, that hamas is building under israel to make their attacks. i think the white house will have some leniency there but they don't want a big escalation. i think netanyahu has said right now we're going to take the lead on this. the u.s. voice right now is sort of muted. >> okay, david mcnamara, thank you for weighing in. first, it was flight 370. now flight 17. what's in store for the future of malaysia airlines? later, i'll sit down with a member of the foreign relation committee to decipher just what this means for the tense ties with the west. sfx: car unlock beep.

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it is a grim task of unimaginable horror. recovery of the carnage from flight 17 slowly unfolds. we have a reporter on the scene with new information on the real problem facing recovery crews. who's to blame for the disaster? whether it was the rebels or russians themselves who fired

that missile, plenty of questions vourquestion questions surround the accountability of president putin. and the anger and disbelief. remembering those lost. >> at least we can be here and bring some flowers. good day to all of you, welcome to "weekends with alex witt." new reaction today from international monitors at the crash site of malaysia airlines flight 17. a day after officials were forced to leave that scene by gunmen in the rebel-held region of eastern ukraine. european monitors today say they were allowed access to the site. >> cooperation improves over time. we have better access today. >> what do you think of the investigation? >> was it enough access?

>> the incident site is rather large we understand. beyond what we have seen. we will consult with those in charge here to see whether we get access to those sites. >> the transport minister of malaysia raises concern the crash site is not being properly secured. >> interfering with the scene of the crash debris and undermining the investigation itself, any action that prevent us from learning the truth about what happened to mh-17 cannot be tolerated. >> ukrainian officials say they discovered 190 bodies at the site but accused of pro-russian rebels of refusing to let the remains be removed. nbc's kear simmons arrived a short time ago, giving me this description. >> deeply disturbing. you've been talking about the fact that the bodies have been left here for two days. the first thing that hits you when you get here is the smell. we are now watching authorities carrying away bodies on

stretchers on the back of lorries. we don't know where they'll be taking to but i guess some sign that the effort's being made to remove the victims of this from the field in which they've, since the accident itself. and then where i'm standing now, everywhere i look is debris. we're right in the middle of it. in front of me now is a piece of -- looks like a piece of wing are the malaysian logo on it. it is not the whole wing, just a piece of it, torn, torn away. if i looked around in the other direction, there is what you would have seen, you know, that black mess really. it's not smoking anymore. what it is is a wide singed charred piece of ground. with the plane around it.

some type of blue seat. sometimes you can identify what you're seeing and sometimes you just can't because it's so burned. >> officials say it was a surface to air missile that brought down the passenger jet. correspondent jim miklaszewski is joining me now. what are you hearing about who fired that missile? >> that's still the dilemma. the mystery facing intelligence services. know the russians had shipped some of these sa-11 missile larger system, the same kind used to shoot down the jetliner that some of those had been shipped to rebel forces inside the eastern ukraine area. and the conclusion has been reached by u.s. intelligence to a certainty that the missile that brought down the malaysian jetliner was launched from the eastern ukraine rebel-held territory, right along the russian border. and just a short time ago, in kiev, the chief of ukrainian

intelligence held a news conference in which he showed photos that he claimed were three separate missile launchers. that were taken in that same area as they were being just yesterday that were being shipped from ukraine back across the russian border. and according to the ukrainian intelligence chief, he said that the photos show that those are russians that are operating those systemings, manning the systems and driving them back across the border. that has been one of the scenarios that u.s. intelligence is looking at. they feel pretty strongly and have strong suspicions that russians were involved. these are complicated electronic systems. and probably not -- could not easily be used properly by just a rag tag group of militias. >> okay, so these missile

launchers are being turned around. first, the question is how damning is that? you can't refute that evidence. and is it all -- we're tracking this, we're hearing this from ukrainian officials, but we're also tracking this with our own united states intelligence. we're confirming what he is saying. >> well, that's right. so far, all of these reports, according to the u.s. officials we've talked to, rather than confirming it, they'll use that sort of evasive language to say we can't dispute it, which often means they have the evidence but they just don't reveal how they obtained or how they got certain kinds of evidence. they are certain that the missile launch occurred there but it's highly suspicious it was probably russians certainly who were training the militia on how to use these weapon systems and the suspicion, deep suspicion, without actually confusing that fact yet, that

the russians were involved in launching those missiles. >> mick, last question, is there a way in using these pretty sophisticated pieces of technology to determine what you are striking at, whether it is a friend or from, these iff systems, i mean, is that automatically put on some of these launchers? >> each one of these systems is somewhat different, the kinds of detections and identification gear and electronics they have. there are some chart, electronic charts that will show up on this system that show graph lines that squiggle across the screen. the difference between a military aircraft and civilian aircraft, if the military is pinging, there is a slight difference that may not be discernible to the untrained eye. nevertheless, even with all

that, u.s. officials think that there was no intent, that the civilian aircraft was not necessarily targeted but it still does not take away the guilt, the blame, from the russians and, quite frankly, even if this were an accident according to u.s. officials, the russians and president vladimir putin still remain call culpable. >> how will putin respond to accusations of russian involvement? russian's ambassador is warning against prejudging the investigation into flight 17. russia denies it has anything to do with the attack. jim maceda at the white house. what's your read? >> today, encouraging signs

actually. putin himself has said in a phone call conversation with german chancellor merkel that everything must be done to make the international investigation as unfettered as possible. that was followed up, in fact, by a phone call conversation that only ended an hour ago between secretary of state john kerry and his russian counterpart, sergey lavrov, in which they agree both countries will use -- i'm paraphrasing, but use their influence on the opposing sides. in this case, the ukrainian government on one side and the pro-russian rebels on the other, to end all hostilities. it does sound like putin on the surface of it is perhaps under pressure of increased sanctions and the horrible press that he's been getting around the world. over the past 48 hours as a result. he may finally be deciding to cooperate. i can think of at least six sources here who would be saying in my ear, that's premature.

putin likes to portray himself as a great spokesman, as the leader who has everyone's best interest at heart. behind the scenes, putin is always pursuing his own interest. ultimately, we're told by many analysts that even if he's bobbing and weaving along the way, kremlin watchers make this point, that putin's goal is to keep ukraine unstable. so that europe, if you will, winds up having to bail out a basket case and not a strong country. putin certainly hasn't been contrite either, alex, about all the anger against him. he still is blaming ukraine. he says kiev started the revolution, it started the civil war, and it's responsible for this latest tragedy as well. but putin, just to wrap up, is facing a real dilemma now, alex. he either doubles down in ukraine and risks those perhaps serious sectoral sanctions which

could hurt him and russia or he cuts all ties with the pro-russian rebels and risks seeing his approval ratings, an astounding 83% here, according to gallup, go down the drain. these latest promises from moscow are encouraging, but keep in mind putin has said a lot of things before, including he's got no influence over the sep ra tifrts. back to you. >> approval numbers in that same poll shows the eu numbers are down, including president obamas. joining me now with more on the investigation is phillip reid, a retired fbi special agent in charge, who investigated the 1998 bombing of pan am flight 103 over lockerbie, scotland. phillip, welcome. >> thank you, appreciate you having me on, alex. >> i'm glad to talk with you about this. 25 years later, once again a civilian airliner being blown out of the sky. what were your thoughts when you first heard on thursday? >> obviously, this is a very

tragic incident. my prayers and sympathies go out to the victims. i think that's the priority at this point, preservation of the bodies, recovery of the bodies, personal effects, and returning them with dignity back to the families of the victims. >> yeah, which of course with two days having passed before any of that seems to be intently undertaken. there's a different scenario. we don't know at this point for certain whether it was intentional. there's the leaning it was not and merely accidental. when you look at the possible measures to take against russia and the separatists, what comes to mind for you? >> well, i think that there's a lot of speculation out there as to whether it was a missile and a missile attack that brought the plane down and of course

that seems to be a great deal of intelligence out there. but, again, that's why it's so important to get an investigati investigation, because an investigation will determine whether or not it was intentional or even by accident. >> another thing that's different here, this is operating in a war zone. talk about the difficulties that you had investigating pan a.m. flight 103 in lockerbie, which was a quiet town, peaceful region in scotland, versus the investigators here facing. >> right, the pan am 103 flight was downed in the town of lockerbie. the town of lockerbie was challenged. they were overwhelmed by the crime scene they were faused with. they had an 845-square mile crime scene they were faced with. it's my understanding there, in

ukraine, there's a 4 to 6 square mile crime scene. what they did in lockerbie, i think should be the standard, immediately secure the crime scene. and start organizing all the personnel resources to start doing grid searches throughout that crime scene. their objective was to pick out anything that didn't grow and consider all evidence important because as we found out later on in the investigation, that investigation carried over three-year period, that there were just very small items that turned out to be critical to identifying who's responsible for the bombing of pan am 103 and also led to their prosecution. >> phillip reed, thank you very much. a quarter century ago, hard to believe that happened back then.

thank you so much, phillip. flight 17's truth and consequences. the potential repercussions. what difference would stronger sanctions make against russia? i'll speak with a member of the senate foreign relations committee. in keeping the denture clean. dentures are very different to real teeth. they're about 10 times softer and may have surface pores where bacteria can multiply. polident is designed to clean dentures daily. its unique micro-clean formula kills 99.99% of odor causing bacteria and helps dissolve stains, cleaning in a better way than brushing with toothpaste. that's why i recommend using polident. [ male announcer ] polident. cleaner, fresher, brighter every day.

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and remember, the only thing to fear is fear itself, and spoilers for shows you haven't seen yet. global...pandemic. ♪ the ukrainian prime minister says it took someone who was, quote, well trained to fire the missile that likely brought down malaysia airlines flight 17. meanwhile, the transport minister is defending the path over eastern ukraine, saying it it was declared safe by the international aviation civil organization. he also stressed several european airlines used this very same route. join meg now is democratic senator benjamin cardin, chairman of the commission on security and cooperation in

europe. senator cardin, always a pleasure, thank you for joining me, sir. >> thanks, alex. always good to be with you. >> a couple of months ago, you came from kiev, there covering the presidential election or, rather, overseeing it. did you envision the crisis ever getting to this point? >> well, we certainly didn't anticipate a civilian airline being shot out of the sky by a missile from the area controlled by the separatists. when we talked to government officials about that visit, they warned us about russian, supplying arms through the border with ukraine. that was their top priority, was to get russia to stop providing the type of arms that may very well have been responsible for bringing down this malaysian flight. >> is there doubt in your mind as to who is responsible, if the choices only come down to russia directly or indirectly through the separatists?

>> well, it's very clear russia supplied the type of missiles that were responsible for bringing down this civilian airline. it's also true that russia's providing technical support and russia has violated ukraine's territorial integrity, not just in crimea but in ukraine. they need to be responsible for that and the sanctions need to be stronger. if there's evidence they were directly involved in bringing down a civilian airline, then they're a state that supports terrorism and then a much stronger international response will be needed. >> the repercussions against russia, does that mean stronger from the united states standpoint or stronger from the international, specifically european community, to go hand-in-hand with the stepped-up sanctioned that the president announced? >> think the united states is certainly prepared to step up the sanctions but they're more effective when we have, particularly europe, with us. the president is working hard to make sure there's unity in

europe. as a result of this episode, this will be more interest understanding how much they're at risk, what's happening in ukraine. we do want to understand the more unified sanctioned regime because it's more effective when other countries join us. >> shot u.s. send military aid to ukraine? >> i think what ukraine wants today is the ability to protect their own borders. they could use additional equipment and supplies. i think the international community needs to be sensitive to what ukraine needs to defend themselves. >> along those lines as you know, just thursday, the senate appropriations committee endorsed a plan arming syrian rebels. does this incident all serve as a cautionary tale about the dangers of arming rebel groups and will it change anything for u.s. policy in syria or elsewhere? >> we got to be very careful whoever we provide support for, in this case, a government, ukraine, that needs our help to protect their own borders.

in syria, it's a situation on where president has sassad has created that own crisis in his country. the point is taken, we must vet very carefully whenever we provide particularly lethal weapons. >> as you're well aware, european leaders have been reluctant to impose strong sanctions against russia because of their close economic ties and what they depend on russia for. do you expect this to potentially be a watershed moment for europe? >> i think so. what happened on this flight really brings out the moral responsibility that europe has to protect its own continent. here, it's a clear violation of international law. there has already been, by russia, its incursion into crimea and it's clear evidence we have they're supplying the separatists with lethal weapons. that, to me, demands europe to respond. clearly, the united states has shown leadership.

we need europe to be with us. i do thing this will cause a big spotlight on europe's actions and response to this tragedy. >> senator, do you have any concerns we are perhaps on the brink of something larger? >> well, clearly, when russia went into crimea, we knew that was an extremely serious episode. russia violated so many international agreements when they did that, including an agreement that they had reached with ukraine, that ukraine's territorial integrity would be respected. we knew russia crossed a line that would cause major repercussions if it was not stood up against. so here we are leaning towards a very dangerous situation. but left unchecked, same type of tactics could be used on other parts of the world. i mentioned before, if one sees one superpower uses might to control the territories there, it affects the global commerce.

we need to stand up to what russia has done. we have to make it clear they cannot interfere with the territorial integrity of another country and, now, supplying weapons or perhaps even directing weapons that have brought down the airline. that cannot go unchallenged. >> the story this weekend, what's going on between israel and hamas, specifically in gaza, is there anything the united states can do to help broker some sort of cessation of violence there, a peace deal ultimately? because -- i mean, i'm not telling you anything you don't already know. it feels like it's always temporary at best. >> well, obviously, the crisis, the loss of life, it's heartbreaking to all of us. israel has not only a right, but a responsibility, to protect its own citizens. hamas is shooting markets into population centers of israel. targeting innocent civilian populations. israel needs to stop that, needs

to marginalize hamas and hopefully get rid of hamas. the way for peace is for the palestinians and israelis sitting down and working out the two-state solution. hamas clearly is not interested in that. the immediate concern is to get a cease-fire and israel's already agreed to that. we need to continue to press for the cease-fire. >> do you see a way, sir, to wipe out hamas without the civilian casualties? >> well, clearly, we need to get international support so that sponsors of terrorism such as iran, syria, are not providing the type of missiles to hamas that are being used against israel. we need to stop the inflow of the missiles into gaza that has ma'am contr hamas controls. that's why israel, today is in gaza, to destroy the tunnel systems being used to bring munitions in. that's what you need to do, cut

off supply routes. egypt is working with us. if we can get other support for that, than if hamas does not have the missiles, they're very much marginalized, then we can get to a point where we can get into peace negotiations between the palestinians and israelis. thank you very much, sir, appreciate it. the stories of those on flight 17 are emerging, like how this flight attendant was not supposed to be on board. and the us has spent millions rebuilding afghanistan but how much has gone to waste or been stolen? the special general for afghan reconstruction will join us. can you pick me up at 6:30? ah... (boy) i'm here! i'm here! (cop) too late. i was gone for five minutes! ugh! move it. you're killing me. you know what, dad? i'm good. (dad) it may be quite a while before he's ready, but our subaru legacy will be waiting for him. (vo) the longest-lasting midsize sedan in its class.

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airline? nbc is in kuala lumpur with more on that. >> reporter: it is a major carrier but now its reputation is being questioned. this morning, flights are steady. lines long. business seemingly good for malaysia airlines. this, at the same airport where families openly grieved after two catastrophes in just four months. flight attendant sanjay sandu wasn't supposed to fly this past thursday, but he covered a shift for a friend. his parents now in disbelief. >> his mother cooked special dishes for him. >> reporter: nbc's longtime aviation correspondent bob hager says it's not clear if the company can survive. >> it's going to be a rough road. that's absolutely certain. but one can't say right now that they're definitely going to go out of business. they may make it.

>> reporter: for those flying today, the negative headlines are top of mind. >> i must say, i was anxious when i saw the news. >> the odds are okay so game on. >> reporter: this longtime malaysian airlines pilot told us he's flown the route where mh-17 was shot down more than a dozen times in recent months. >> do you think the company did enough to keep -- >> yes, i am positively sure malaysia airlines has done their best. we check everything up and so yes, the airline did their best, yeah. >> reporter: like most brands, reputation may ultimately decide the airline's fate. restoring the trust of people who are flying internationally is going to be tough for malaysia airlines. >> reporter: industry insiders say it could take weeks, if not months, for malaysia airlines to be impacted by these tragedies. >> how can the commercial

aviation industry make sure no other jetliner gets shot out of the sky? that's next. new air strikes in gaza and the deadly fallout, how long will the campaign against hamas last? with end rounded bristles so brushing doesn't scratch gums and angled perfectly, to remove 90% of plaque for a healthier smile. trust the brand more dentists and hygienists use. oral-b. fancy feast broths. they're irresistabowl... completely unbelievabowl... totally delectabowl. real silky smooth or creamy broths. everything she's been waiting for. carefully crafted with real seafood, real veggies, and never any by-products or fillers. wow! being a cat just got more enjoyabowl. fancy feast broths. wow served daily. ♪

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i think we're on the same page. we're totally on the same page. at discover, we treat you like you'd treat you. fraud protection. get it at discover.com welcome back to "weekends with alex witt." the dutch foreign minister says the netherlands will not stop until those guilty of attacking airlines flight 17 is brought to justice. officials believe it was brought down from an area inside ukraine, though controlled by russian-backed rebels. all 298 people on board were killed. today, mallaraysian airlines released the list of those on board of flight. one american with dual dutch sim seasonship was also on board. the ukrainian government says russian separatists took three dozen bodies from the crash scene to a morgue in donetsk. the government is accusing rebels there of looting at the crash site. joining me, retired army colonel

jack jacobs and former nbc aviation correspondent bob hager who we always welcome back in situations like this. thank you to you both for being here. let's talk about the protocol, bob. is there a protocol set for an international incident of this sort? >> usually, any formal investigation, it's the country involved. but in other cases such as the soviet downing of the korean airliner back in the early 1880s, or 1980s, and when we shot down the iranian air bus. the international civil aviation organization, a u.n. function, headquartered in montreal. i wonder if whether that's what will happen here. >> if i'm not mistaken, i read that the russians, they held on to the black boxeses for a decade before turning it over.

>> didn't even admit they had them. not until the break-up of the soviet union did they finally tell the world they had the black boxes. the flip side is the black boxes really didn't have much valuable information about that. >> in which case is the same -- >> might be the case here, yeah. i don't know that the black box, despite everybody's concern about them, are going to tell you very much about how they came down. >> okay. colonel, how high would a plane have to fly to avoid this kind of attack from missiles? >> that has a slant range of 12 miles, and if it were shooting directly overhead, it would have to be 72,000 feet. but you don't engage a target at that 90-degree angle. but it would have to be well above, i think, the ceiling of most civilian aircraft in order to avoid getting hit by an

sa-11. >> commercial airliners don't have any technology to help detect a missile heading at them, do they? >> no, no, they don't. there was a run-up in figuring out whether or not to have some systems in all, which turned out really to be too expensive. i think that was after pan am 103. there was considerable investigation of it in the u.s. finally the idea was rejected. >> even if you had a detection system on a civilian aircraft, what are you going to do about it? >> those 777s, they're huge, they're almost lumbering. they can't turn and move quickly, right? this is a missile going how fast, like a mile a second? >> yeah, very fast. there's no way to avoid it. once it detects it, you can't do anything about it. it's a radar guided system. even if you had the capability of dropping chafe, for example -- >> that is what they talked about in the u.s. >> it's the only way you're going to maybe avoid a strike. civilian aircraft have no way of defending themselves against military missiles.

>> in other words, the crew and passengers on the plane, they would have never seen what was coming their way? >> i don't think there's a way to protect against a missile coming your way. you can't get out of the way, that's for sure. >> gentlemen, so glad to see you both here. thank you so much. israel's expanding ground offensive against hamas is yielding more discoveries of secret tunnels. it is finding more concealed rocket large pads. nbc's mart in fletcher. with a couple of weeks into this violence, do you have any sense that the violence will be escalating? >> every sense it will escalate. there's no sign it will not. israel's called up more than 65,000 reserves. they're massing on the border with the army which has gone in. the israelis are at the beginning of this operation. they set themselves a rather modest goal on the one hand which is find and destroy all

those secret tunnels. which link gaza into israel. israel says it wants to find and destroy the entire network. so far, as they say, about 13 tunnel, about 33 entrances. of course bear in mind there are more than one entrance to each tunnel. so that's a significant success so far. there was a real serious hitch for israel today through one of the tunnels that israel did not discover today. palestinian militants gunmen went into israel. past the border and they were able to surprise an israeli army jeep. they lay and wait for an israeli jeep patrol, fire a shoulder fired rocket at the jeep, hit it, killed two israelis, including a major, and then the israeli, the rest of the israeli soldiers, they were able to kill one and the rest managed to escape, probably running through that very same tunnel into gaza. that shows you how real the tunnel threat is. the other major goal for the

israelis is to stop the rocket launches into israel. extraordinary thing is despite this very intense ground invasion, continuing rocket fire from the air and the sea, the palestinians were still able today to fire 93 rockets at israel. that's, you know, their daily average for last two weeks, has been about 130 rockets a day. so the fact they're able to still, despite the pressure, to find 93, shows they're still a very real and difficult enemy for israel to take out. >> you talk about, today, finding 13 tunnels, but there are more than 1,000 tunnels reportedly. so what will constitute success for russia on that front of the operation -- not russia, pardon me, israel. >> actually, i also saw that number of 1,000. the israelis keep talking actually several dozen. there seems to be several dozen

real tunnels. many small tunnels but there are others that are really very sophisticated. success would be to take out the tunnels, but prime minister netanyahu actually defined success after yesterday's cabinet meeting, he said sustained calm for the israeli people is the goal of the operation. sustained calm would mean destroying the hamas military infrastructure. so we don't yet know what the israeli invasion goal really is. he's certainly got enough force there to stay for a long time and we'll see the fighting escalate in the next few days, alex. >> which means we'll also see you again. nbc's martin fletcher, thank you so much, from tel aviv. one of the nation's leading hispanic organizations is gathering for its annual conference. how much will deal with the human crisis at the border? that's next. but her knee pain returns... that's two more pills. the evening's event brings laughter, joy, and more pain... when jamie says... what's that like six pills today? yeah... i can take 2 aleve for all day relief.

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issue today in cities around the country. with a hello to you, let's talk about the expectations at this conference and the sense of urgency around this crisis. humanitarian, economic, any way you want to express it. what are you sensing there? >> the national council is the nation's largest hispanic organization dedicated to civil rights and advocacy. they are considering this an absolute crisis of international proportion. >> oh, goodness, looks like we lost the satellite signal with los angeles. we may get that back later. right now, more of the 100 billion of your tax dollars at work rebuilding afghanistan. but maybe not. we're going to follow the money to fraud and waste next. tell the good from the bad?" so we gave people the power of the review. and now angie's list is revolutionizing local service again. you can easily buy and schedule services from top-rated providers.

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a team of european monitors says it was given brief access today to the malaysian airlines crash site in eastern ukraine

one day after officials were forced to leave that area. the region is under the control of pro russian rebels. monitors say their access to the site today was limited to eight square miles. a at least 26 people were killed in five separate attacks in shiite neighborhoods. sectarian violence in baghdad has been on the rise as the shiite-led government and militias batting with sunni insurgents who already seized a large swath of country. as the u.s. military prepares for its drawdown from afghanistan, the sustainability of the country itself, not just its security, remains a serious concern. since 2002, the united states has spent over $100 billion on relief and reconstruction projects in afghanistan. that is in addition to the trillions of dollars spent on the war. to keep an eye on all that money, in 2008, congress created an independent special inspector general, a watchdog to some. the agency has been tasked with

fighting fraud and waste in one of the most corrupt countries in the world. and joining me now is the special inspector general for afghanistan reconstruction. john, welcome to you. i've been looking forward to this segment because it's the topic of much discussion in our newsroom. before we get into some of the specific cases, though, what is your overall assessment of the state of afghanistan development? >> well, it's at a precarious point. with the troop drawdown, people think that reconstruction is over. it isn't. actually, it's going to continue. and i think as you pointed out in the lead-in, it's probably more important than ever. so we've got to get it right. and it's going to be more difficult to get right because there are fewer resources to oversee and manage what at the end of this year will be the biggest reconstruction effort we have ever done. it will be bigger than the

marshall plan. we've got to get it right with fewer protection from my people and the aid contracting officers who are doing their work over there. >> all right, i want to take a look at three of the most recent concerns you have raised. 1,600 buildings were not up to safety standards and dangerously flammable, missing records on $3 million for four patrol boats. and over 100 million for four cargo planes that you're not even sure are needed. so overall how indicative are these of the broader problem? >> unfortunately, they're very indicative of the problem. we spent too much money too fast in too poor a country with too little planning and oversight. and that is what happens when you do that. and hopefully, we can get it together as we go forward, because the gains we have made can all be squandered now if we

don't get it together and get it right. so that's why we view this year and the next few years as really the most important years for reconstruction. >> john, i know part of your mission may not be to ascribe blame for this, but certainly you've uncovered the money trails, and can you place blame on why so much waste? >> well, we actually do place blame. actually, some people in the government don't like the fact that i harp on holding people accountable. and we do hold people accountable. we send people to jail. we arrest them. we have law enforcement authority. we indict people. and we send them to jail. we also identify and name the people who have screwed up some of these contracts. the problem is not many people in the government are holding people accountable. and so you are continue to repeat these problems unless you hold these people accountable. >> i stand corrected. you're definitely in the job of

placing blame there. how about placing a dollar figure on just how much money has been lost to fraud and waste. >> you know, it's tough to do that. we spent over $103 billion. we don't even have a central database of where we spent the money. that's one of the criticisms my office has had. the gao has been critical of that for years. congress has mandated the administration to do that. they have failed to do it. our little agency of 200 people are actually being forced to put that database together. so i can't say exactly. it's been billions. you've just identified close to a billion dollars right there, if you throw in we've got 20 airplanes we bought for the afghans. over $600 million. none of them can fly. >> what? >> it gets into the billions. oh, yes. if you fly into kabul, you'll see a number of airplanes sitting there rusting that we bought for the afghan air force that can't fly. we're trying to find out who's

responsible for that. we have an ongoing criminal as well as civil investigation. but the important thing is we wasted too much money. too much money that could have been used better in afghanistan to help the afghans to keep the terrorists out. too much money that could have been spent somewhere else. >> those planes are certainly an example of this, but do you have another one, of an egregious waste of u.s. tax dollars? >> well, we have headquarters down in camp -- in helmand province. we identified it last year. spent $36 million. the marine corps general there said don't build it, i don't want it, i'll never use it. general allen, who ran all of our troops in afghanistan, said don't build it. we don't want it. it's going to be wasted. lo and behold, we're leaving that base in a few months, and it will probably be torn down or given to the afghans, and the afghans won't know what to do with it. so there's a classic example. too many times we never ask the

afghans do you want it, and do you need it. simple questions like that. and too many times we ignored the fact we're dealing with the most corrupt country in the world. next to north korea. and we didn't build programs that took that into account. so that's the frustration and the problems we're seeing. >> how sustainable, john, is the afghanistan infrastructure once the u.s. pulls out? >> if we pull out the funding, there will be serious consequences. so that's why reconstruction is continuing. even with the drawdown in troops, we will be spending $6 to $8 billion. they cannot afford the government we have left them. they cannot afford even to pay for the military we have left them. so we -- if we want to ensure that terrorists don't get back into that country, we are going to have to support them. that's why i say the next few years are most critical, because

we are going to have to oversee $8 billion potentially a year. we have $18 billion authorized. but not yet appropriated, but not yet spent in the pipeline. and to make certain that money is used properly, we must focus on it and make oversight mission critical. >> thank you very much for your insights. i do appreciate that. and we also reached out to usaid for a response. they said the share of the u.s. investment in afghanistan has helped the country experience greater improvement in human development, a measure of health, education, and standard of living than any other country in the world since 2000. we continue to work closely with all responsible oversight agencies, including the inspectors general, in support of the administration's objectives and to protect us and u.s. taxpayer funding. we also reached out to the pentagon, but they did not provide a response. i'll see you right back here tomorrow at noon eastern. up next, richard lui. have yourself a great day.

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