next on "meet the press," the crisis with russia over the downing of malaysia airlines flight 17. strong reaction this morning from the obama administration as russian-backed rebels take the outrageous step of removing bodies from the crash site. how will the u.s. force president putin to cooperate. war in the middle east after a failed peace push by the obama white house. i'll ask secretary of state john kerry if the president's foreign policy vision is up to all of these global tasks. later, the blow to aids research. some of the world's top experts killed in the malaysia airlines disaster. i'll get exclusive reaction from dr. anthony fauci of the national institutes of health.

an active week on the campaign trail overshadowed by the malaysia airlines news. and interesting 2016 trends to follow this morning with our roundtable. >> announcer: from nbc news in washington, this is "meet the press" with david gregory. >> good sunday morning. the very latest in the standoff are the details emerging how russian backed separatists are interfering with the investigation and removing bodies from the crash site. the latest u.s. intelligence suggests the missile that downed malaysia airlines was fired by russian rebels in the ukraine after russia gave more than one missile system to separatists in recent weeks. putin denied involvement and said the west shouldn't leap to conclusions. in a moment i'll speak to secretary of state john kerry. first andrea mitchell with high stakes in what might be the low etion moment in u.s./russian relations since the cold war. >> that intelligence you referred to is very persuasive.

american new jersey officials are convinced russia supplied the missile and trained the separatists who shot down the plane and now this new outrage, the removal of the victims from the crash site. all this evidence pointing to vladimir putin's policies to this horrible sequence of events. now the question is, what are president obama and other world leaders going to do about it? the launch button on a russian-made missile that blue the malaysian airliner out of the sky could signal the diplomatic dead end to the reset button the obama administration pushed in 2009. >> we will do it together. >> times have changed. >> there's a lot more that needs to be done and put putin on notice that he has gone too far and we are not going to stand idly by. >> the latest flash plounoint, ukraine. >> we want russia to take the path that would result in peace in ukraine, but so far, at least, russia has failed to take that path. instead, it has continued to

violate ukrainian sovereignty and to support violent separatists. >> the challenges are, what leverage does obama have? while he's suffering his lowest approval ratings, president putin's popularity is surging on his revival of russian nationalism as he flaunts russian power abroad. from the world cup to cuba. russia is arming u.s. adversaries, supplying heavy arms in ukraine, syria, and iraq, frustrating u.s. diplomacy. >> what we're seeing is vladimir putin implementing a policy of regional instability, arming with very sophisticated weapons these pro-russian separatists. >> another challenge, does europe have the political will to impose stiffer sagess that will really hurt russia? until the malaysian airlines shoot down, they put their economic self interest above punishing putin. >> i'm not counting on europeans

being prepared to sacrifice but i would say it's much more likely. especially if the evidence becomes overwhelming that russia is implicated in this event. >> assuming a new round of sanctions can be agreed on, would they force putin to finally change course or push russia and the west closer toward a new cold war? >> the united states and western allies have a vision of a vibrant democracy, market economies. russia and vladimir putin have a very different vision. >> this isn't a new cold war, but it is a new low in modern day relations between the u.s. and russia. and so far no amount of pressure, including a call from secretary kerry to the russian foreign minister only yesterday, seems to change putin's behavior. even as body parts were being removed and valuable evidence hauled away from that crash site. david? >> difficult moment, this particular moment, andrea. thank you very much. this morning i spoke with secretary of state john kerry. secretary kerry, welcome back to "meet the press."

>> i'm glad to be with you, david. thank you. >> the president demanded absolute cooperation from russia, from the separatists in eastern ukraine, and now the whole world is watching and the startling developments that the rebels are removing bodies from the crash site, putting them on refrigerated trains, even talk of removing the black box. what do you say about that this morning? >> well, what's happening is really grotesque and it is contrary to everything that president putin and russia said that they would do. there are reports of drunken separatist soldiers unceremoniously piling bodies in trucks, removing both bodies as well as evidence from the site. they promised unfettered access, david. the fact is that right now they have 75 minutes on friday. yesterday, three hours. there were shots fired in the area. the separatists are in control, and it is clear that russia

supports the separatists, supplies the separatists, encourages the separatists, trains the separatists, and russia needs to step up and make a difference here. >> how might the investigation be compromised, the government's ability to determine with certainty who fired this missile based on what's happening now. specifically i speak here about these reports of the black box being removed. >> let me tell you what we know at this point, david, because it tells you a lot about what's going on. in the last month we have observed major supplies moving in. several weeks ago about 150 vehicle convoy, including armored personnel carriers, tanks, rocket launchers, artillery, all going in and being transferred to the separatists. we know that they had an sa-11 system in the vicinity literally hours before the shootdown took place. there's social media records of that.

they were talking and we have the intercepts of their conversations, talking about the transfer and movement and repositioning of the sa-11 system. the social media showed them with this system moving through the very area where we believe the shootdown took place hours before it took place. social media, which is an extraordinary tool obviously in all of this has posted recordings of separatists bragging about the shootdown of a plane at the time right after it took place. the defense minister so-called self-appointed of the people's republic of donetsk actually posted a bragging statement on the social media about having shot down a transport. then when it became apparent it was civilian, they quickly removed that particular posting. >> are you bottom lining here that russia provided the weapon?

>> there's a story today confirming that, but we have not within the administration made a determination. it's pretty clear. there is a buildup of extraordinary circumstantial evidence. i'm a former prosecutor. i tried cases on circumstantial evidence. it's powerful here. but mean more importantly, we picked up the imagery of this launch. we know the trajectory. we know where it came from. we know the timing. it was exactly at the time this aircraft disappeared from the radar. we also know from voice identification that the separatists were bragging about shooting it down afterwards. so there's a stacking up of evidence here which russia needs to help account for. we are not drawing the final conclusion here, but there is a lot that points at the need for russia to be responsible. what president obama believes and we the international

community join in believing, everybody is convinced we must have unfettered access. the lack of access -- the lack of access, david, makes its own statement about culpability and responsibility. >> given that, given that, and what comes next, "the washington post" has editorialized this weekend what was missing from the president's comments when he spoke out on friday was a clear moral conclusion about the regime of vladimir putin or an articulation of how the united states will respond. what about it? >> well, we're in discussions about that right now. i had a conversation yesterday with my counterpart, foreign minister lavrov. i made it very, very clear that we need this cooperation. we're going to try to find a way immediately to determine whether or not that's going to be forthcoming. as you know, president obama only the day before this incident took place unilaterally moved in order to impose tougher sanctions.

he imposed son ed sanctions on prom, sanctions on military companies. we've taken tough sanctions. we hope this is a profound wakeup call to those countries in europe that have wanted to kind of, you know, go slow and soft pedal this. >> but call vladimir putin what he is. what is the threat that he and russia present to the united states and to the west? >> it's not a question of the threat they present to the west, david. it's a question of whether or not you're going to get the cooperation necessary in a way they have said they would. we're trying for the last time to see if that will be forthcoming at this moment or not. but obviously the additional sanctions are reflections of the president's exhaustion of patience with words that are not accompanied by actions. going back to the meetings i had with mr. lavrov in geneva

several -- a couple months ago now, the fact is they agreed to do certain things and the ukrainians agreed to do certain things. ukraine declared a cease-fire. 26 soldiers of ukraine were killed during the course of the cease fire. we need russia to publicly, publicly, start to call for responsible action and itself take actions that they can take with the separatists they have encouraged, they have enflamed, they have supplied, they have trained and that are still engaged in a contest for the sovereignty of ukraine itself. russia said they would respect the sovereignty of ukraine. that is not respectful to be transferring those weapons. >> i detect in your words, mr. secretary, some reluctance to make this a one-on-one battle. you want to give russia a little bit more room here. but the question is still about consequences.

how can anyone view this as anything other than the lowest moment between united states and russia in the post-cold war environment? >> david, you can get into these grand proclamations about where things are and where they aren't. the fact is we live in an extremely complicated world right now where everybody is working on ten different things simultaneously. russia is working with us in a cooperative way on the p5 plus 1. we just had important meetings in vienna. >> this is about iran's nuclear program. >> in order to try to deal with iran's nuclear program. russia was constructive and helpful and worked at that effort. russia has been constructive in helping to remove 100% of the declared chemical weapons from syria. in fact, that was an agreement we made months ago, and it never faltered even during these moments of conflict. so this is more complicated than throwing names at each other and making declarations.

there has to be a continued effort to find a way forward. that's what we're trying to do. we made it clear, even as we do that, there's no naivete in what president obama has done with respect to these very tough sanctions. and the united states has been working diligently with europe trying to bring europe along. they have included additional sanctions. we think, frankly, they may need to be tougher. it may well be that the dutch and others will help lead that effort, because this has to be a wakeup call to europe that this has to change. we cannot continue with a dual track policy where diplomacy is winding up with nice words and, you know, well constructed communiques and agreements. but then there's a separate track where the same policy continues.

this is a moment of truth for mr. putin and for russia. russia needs to step up and prove its bona fides if there are any left with respect to its willingness to put action behind words. >> the war in gaza is also taking up your time. what does israel have to gain? >> this is a very difficult moment also and a difficult situation. israel has been under attack by rockets. i don't think any nation in the world would sit there while rockets are bombarding it and you know there are tunnels from which terrorists have come jumping up in the dead of night, some with handcuffs and tranquilizer drugs on them in an obvious effort to try to kidnap people and hold them for ransom. the fact is that is unacceptable by any standard anywhere in the world. israel has every right in the

world to defend itself. but we're hopeful, very hopeful, we can quickly find a way forward to put a cease-fire in place so that the underlying issues, so that we can get to the questions. but you cannot reward terrorism. there can't be a set of preconditioned demands that are going to be met. we support the egyptian initiative joined in by israel and others to have an immediate cease-fire, and we're working that cease-fire very, very hard. i have been in touch all day yesterday, day before, many days now with my counterparts. the president has been in touch with prime minister netanyahu i think day before yesterday. they will talk again today. i talked to prime minister netanyahu yesterday, and i believe the president wants me to go very, very shortly to the region in order to try to see if we can get a cease-fire in place. >> mr. secretary, before i let you go, i want you to answer critics who accuse this president of an uncertain course in his foreign policy.

it harkens back to something the president wrote in his own book, "audacity of hope," he wrote this critical of the bush years. without a well articulated strategy the public supports and the world understands, america will lack the legitimacy and ultimately the power it needs to make the world safer than it is today. is that a problem president obama faces? >> no. let me tell you, what he faces is a problem with a bunch of critics who want to jump to conclusions without looking at the facts. the facts could not be more clear. the united states of america has never been more engaged in helping to lead in more places than we are now. i just came back from china where we are engaged with the chinese in dealing with north korea. you will notice since the visit last year, north korea has been quieter. we haven't done what we want to do yet with respect to the denuclearization, but we are working on that moving forward. with respect to syria, we struck a deal where we got 100% of the chemical weapons out.

with respect to iraq, we are deeply involved now in the process of government formation helping the iraqis to be able to choose a government of unity that can reunite it. they've elected a speaker, they're about to elect a president. we believe that's moving forward. on afghanistan we helped strike a deal recently to help warring parties in the contest of the election to be able to come together and hold afghanistan together. with respect to iran, this president has taken the risk of putting together a negotiation for the first time in ten years. the iranian nuclear program is actually being rolled backwards, and israel and the region are safer than they were. we've negotiated a cease-fire and an effort to try to bring troops into south sudan. we've negotiated a disarming of the m-23 rebel group in democratic republic of the congo. we're negotiating a major economic treaty, a package trade agreement with europe.

40% of the world's gdp. same thing in asia. i would tell you something, david. one thing i have seen for certain, people aren't worried around the united states and sitting there saying, with he want the united states to leave. people are worried that the united states might leave, and the fact is that every fundamental issue of conflict today, the united states is in the center leading and trying to find an effort to make peace where peace is very difficult. and i think the american people ought to be proud of what this president has done in terms of peaceful, diplomatic engagement rather than quick trigger, deploying troops, starting or engaging in a war of choice. i think the president's on the right track, and i think we have the facts to prove it. >> secretary kerry, as always, thank you for your time. >> thank you. >> i'm joined now by republican senator lindsey graham of south carolina. senator, welcome back to the program. >> thank you. >> a lot to get to. let me start on the middle east

and the war in gaza. there are reports this morning of a serious escalation in fighting with heavier casualties as israel has expanded its ground offensive. what are you hearing? >> i'm hearing there may be some israeli casualties coming from the tunnels where they come out into israel, but my view of the israeli operation, stay as long as you need to stay, go wherever you need to go to deal with the viper's nest called hamas. it's not the number of casualties that determines the moral outcome here. the more german soldiers got killed than american soldiers. if i were israel, i would stay in gaza as long as i needed to to stop the rockets for good. >> when you see a ground operation moving in this direction and you see, again, an operation that may be resulting in heavier israeli casualties, what do you think that means? do you have any words of caution for israel at this point? do you think the government -- do you think the administration will seek to caution israel?

>> i hope not. my only words to the israeli government and people is, clear it out. close the tunnels. shut down the rocket sites. stay as long as you need to stay. over 1,500 rockets have been fired. the only reason there have been a few israeli casualties, because of iron dome. if it's left up to hamas, thousands of israelis would be dead. i hope the international community will not find a moral equivalence here to the israeli government do whatever is necessary to protect your people. stay as long as you need to stay, and as to secretary kerry, he gave the most ridiculous and delusional summary of american foreign policy i could imagine. it scares me that he believes the world is in such good shape. america is the glue that holds the free world together. leading from behind is not working. the world is adrift, and president obama has become the king of indecision. his policies are failing across the globe and they will come

here soon. >> senator, there's a lot to unpack there, specifically with regard to russia. this crisis over the downing of the malaysia airlines flight, what did secretary kerry not say? what is the administration not yet prepared to do that you ni must be done? >> one, he didn't call putin the thug that he is. he didn't call for arming the ukraine so they can defend themselves against rebel separatists supporting by russia. all of the enemies of our nation are being well supplied. russia and iran are helping syria. 160,000 syrians have been slaughtered, john kerry, by russian-supplied weapons to assad. syria has become a safe haven for terrorists to attack our nation. how about sanctions that would hit putin as an individual? their energy sector, their banking sector. the europeans are never going to lead on this issue. its indispensable that america lead, and there's a battle of wills between the kgb colonel

and the community organizer and the colonel is winning. >> there is, you heard from secretary kerry this kind of knee-jerk response that he would lay at your feet and others who call for a more robust military reaction. is that really what you see here? or is it working with europeans for the kind of sanctions you think can work to cripple the economy in russia? >> good point. nothing knee-jerk is going on here. indecision reigns. president obama is trying to be deliberative. it comes off as indecisive. he's trying to be thoughtful. it comes off as weakness. i'm suggesting european/american organized sanctions that go after putin individually, the energy sector in russia, the banking sector in russia. i'm suggesting that we arm the ukrainians so they can defend thends. i'm suggesting they put mornay toe troops surrounding ukraine, that we rebuild the missile defense systems that obama took down to let putin know the path

of least resistance is not to continue to dismember the ukraine. >> you've got -- and i have about 20 seconds, senator. the crisis on the border, immigration reform. this is an international problem, but it's also a big political issue as well. is your party prepared to move with the president on this? >> there will be no money for supplemental without changes in the 2008 law. we have to streamline and quicken deportations. there will be no immigration reform because of the crisis on the border. i blame obama for this moment, but in 2015 if we start over and the republican party doesn't get immigration reform right in 2015 and the house should lead, not the senate, our chances in 2016 of winning the white house are very low. >> senator lindsey graham, with a lot of reaction to what we've heard this morning. senator, as always, thank you. >> thank you. reaction now from our political roundtable. andrea mitchell is still with us. ron fournier of the national journal. we covered the white house together during the bush

presidency. for the first time on the program, jason riley, author of "please stop helping us: how liberals make it harder for blacks to succeed." he's an editorial board member of the "wall street journal" and amy walter from the cook political report. welcome to all of you. ron, the president's response, two visions here of how he's dealing with russia in this moment, another crisis. how do you see it? >> look, first of all, let's make it clear, of course, putin is a thug here, and, of course, it's very complicated what's happening between israel and the palestinians, but what we have here is a president for better and for worse, partly reflecting the american sentiment, really has not tried to impose his will and his vision on the global community. and what we have happening here are kind of the consequences in part of an aloof foreign policy. >> you have, amy, the secretary of state saying it's not as simple as saying calling people out. it appears to me they're giving putin some room, maybe that is silly, but they're giving him some room to try to step up and

defuse this crisis. >> well, it makes it a lot easier than actually having to do what senator graham is asking for, which is let's actually arm the rebels and to ron's point, the public is not there at all. where the public is on this, they just want to see somebody who looks bold, who is going out and calling people out as thugs or whatever we want to call them, but they don't want to have a consequence to that. they don't want to see a foreign policy that looks like president bush's foreign policy either. so he's in sort of a bind, but the public has also lost trust in what the president is doing. they lost it back when the website crashed and he's not getting it back. >> jason riley, "the washington post" editorializing. is the president calling out the russian government for what it is and really spelling out what america's prepared to do about it? >> no, he's not. and that's called leadership and he's not leading. vladimir putin is rebuilding the russian empire and obama is worrying about maintaining a lightfoot print internationally.

a power vacuum are created and people like putin are more than happy to make mischief. senator graham mentioned syria. we set a red line, assad ignored it, there were no consequences. putin was taking not. he not only took note, he took crimea. there have been no consequences. >> andrea, how do you read where the administration is headed? >> i agree that syria was the turning point last labor day weekend because it was interpreted in the persian gulf and elsewhere around the world as infective american leadership. the problem is drawing a red line. i understand why critics think that the president's rhetoric on friday was not even unto the moral outrage expressed by samantha power. samantha power was a more forceful power at the united nations than the president. they know they have to deal with putin. angela merkel is not where the president is and even the dutch up until the last 24 hours have

not been. they have sided with putin in a lot of different -- >> briefly on gaza, secretary kerry saying he's prepared to go there very quickly. go to do what? >> that is the other problem because they've been prepared, their bags have been packed, but israel and egypt have this cease fire that mahmoud abbas was buying into but not hamas, and israel will not go with negotiations that turkey and qatar have been trying to launch. so who to negotiate with? there is some talk that secretary kerry wasn't even desired in the region, not even by israel, because it wasn't clear what he could do and israel wanted to get something more accomplished on the ground. now israel apparently has suffered some real casualties among its military and that's going to potentially escalate it. >> we'll take a break here and come back with all of you in just a moment. we're later going to go to a midwestern town that's embroiled in a dispute over a mayor's plan to bring unaccompanied child immigrants there. plus, our chuck todd is going to be up with the inside story of who is ready for

hillary and who isn't. and just what did chris christie mean by this? >> let's not let up. let's work as hard as we can the next 110 days, and i will see you back here in iowa really soon. thank you all very much. >> announcer: "meet the press" is brought to you by ge, we imagine a better world, then make it real. story of who is ready for is brought to you by ge, we story of who is ready for is brought to you by ge, we sfx: car unlock beep. vo: david's heart attack didn't come with a warning. today his doctor has him on a bayer aspirin regimen

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coming up here, running the numbers for 2016, who is already

in a good position for a 2016 race for the white house? our chuck todd has the latest nbc news polls. >> announcer: "meet the press" is brought to you by the morgan stanley institute for sustainable investing.

we're back. the news of the week has overshadowed interesting political maneuvers ahead of the 2016 race for the white house. potential candidates were out in early voting states this week signaling their intentions and some new polling provides interesting insights into the race. our political director chuck todd with his takeaways. >> reporter: for most of us, summer travel takes us to theme parks or beaches. for presidential wannabes is anywhere they can find potential supporters. this week was particularly busy.

chris christie in iowa, joe biden and elizabeth warren wooing progressives in detroit and hillary clinton finishing her book tour. good and bad news for hopefuls on both sides. here are three key takeaways. number one, democrats are ready for hillary. in head-to-head match-ups clinton handily leads joe biden in most states by 50 or more points. take a look at these favorable ratings among democrats, 89% in iowa and a whopping 94% in new hampshire. as excited as democrats are, it's not going to be a cake walk for her in these two swing states in a general. in head-to-head match-ups with six potential republicans, the race tightens substantially. while she's tied or leads all of them, she didn't do any better than 51% against anybody. the republican that runs best against her is kentucky senator rand paul. that's our second takeaway. the first term kentucky senator right now is the closest thing

republicans have to 2016 front-runner. what gives paul that label? he has the highest favorable ratings of any potential candidate if the two states. he leads the polls in the early horse race not including the undecided vote and he runs best against hillary clinton. but it's not just good poll number. he's been strategic in the last six months. he hired rick santorum's former campaign manager. and he backs a less active foreign policy that happens to be more public with the public. this could mean that paul will be an early target of uneasy establishment republicans all of next year. and that brings us to our third takeaway, chris christie has a lot of work to do. the new jersey governor has the highest negative ratings of any of his republican rivals and that's just among republicans in both states. it's why he's policemening to come back to the state a lot. >> i'll see back here in iowa really soon. >> reporter: all this activity and we're just a mere 560 days away until the iowa caucuses. for "meet the press," chuck todd, nbc news, washington.

>> we're back with our roundtable to talk about the politics of the moment, which is still a long way away from 2016. jason riley, i want to pick up on chuck's point about rand paul. does he look like a republican front-runner this far out? and if he does, he represents the libertarian wing of the republican party on foreign policy on such a big foreign policy week. you were just saying how striking it is to you. >> particularly his views on foreign policy i think don't sit well with a lot of republicans. i'm a little -- >> where is the dick cheney wing, the lindsey graham wing? >> exactly. rand paul's views on foreign policy are not that different from president obama's in terms of disengagement. that's the reality there. what struck me about this poll, my takeaway, is the gop bench is much deeper than the democratic bench here. it's basically hillary or bust among democrats. i was also surprised at how well jeb bush and chris christie are going in republican circles. there are deal breaker issues on

immigration with jeb bush and on moderation on climate change and gun control with chris christie. voters seem to be telling pollsters otherwise which is interesting. >> president obama right now as we were talking about earlier is channeling the american public and looking weak. rand paul is channeling the american public, even a big part of the republican sentiment but now we'll see the channeling of the party make him look weak. that is going to happen. >> interesting. the other piece is where hillary clinton stands on foreign policy. she might have been a big guide to president obama in his views if he looks too uncertain in his foreign policy, does that hurt her? >> i don't know that the american public is looking at foreign policy. even right now they're thinking about the presidential elections. their number one concern still is the economy, and i think that's the bigger problem for hillary clinton right now is she's going to have to come in the wake of the obama presidency, his approval ratings obviously quite weak, his handling of the economy quite weak and there's no sign that the economy is going to suddenly catch fire by the time we hit 2015. that is going to be a bigger weight on her than what's

happening overseas. >> can you imagine the 2016 ad real quick with her pushing the russian reset button? >> but i think elizabeth warren is a real issue here. she was greeted as such a celebrity at this conference this past -- >> grassroots nation getting huge -- >> she was all but a candidate. she can say what she wants about not running, but if there were a slip or if there were any reason where hillary clinton has to take a step back and if the foreign policy becomes an issue, which she has to own part of -- >> i think there have been slips. i think there have been slips, on the book tour, talking about her personal wealth. those are unforced errors, and i think elizabeth warren folks see an opening there. now, the question is on the left -- i mean, how big is the universe of people who think the problem with obama is that he's too conservative? that's who elizabeth warren would be going after. i don't know how many people there are, but she could -- >> there may be disillusioned, dispointer pointed liberals -- >> but there's one other thing about the economy being

everything here. leadership is the issue, and it's leadership whether it's on foreign policy or the economy. >> it's true. >> that perhaps he's not projecting. >> but liberals like hillary clinton right now. in fact, they like her a lot more than they did in 2007, 2008. they are coalesced behind her. they believe it's her turn. they like the idea of somebody that's change, that's different. this is why the rand paul thing is so exciting. >> we can talk about the divisions in the republican party. if hillary clinton doesn't run, we'll see -- >> let me ask you about the republican party. chris christie is having a tough go in our poll as chuck todd described. he had a pretty good trip to iowa where people aren't as concerned about traffic over the gw bridge as the media might be. >> i think it's probably helped him with conservatives. anytime the media takes you on, it's a good thing. long term the fact that the federal prosecutors are still looking into him, until he gets out from under that and until he squares that with his authenticity brand, he has a problem.

>> he's a blue state governor. that in and of itself says to conservatives, i don't know if we can trust him, and that was a bigger concern long before theg w bridge. >> i hear over and over again from republicans that jeb bush will not run. >> i hear that, too. a lot of his activity is helping his son, george p., who we know land commissioner in texas -- >> big job. >> a run for governor and maybe beyond that. is that the feeling? >> it could be true. it could be true. what christie has going for him now is a lot of money. a lot of the financial people have backed him. if the bridge scandal stuff, if these prosecutions pick up and that money goes away, then the question becomes where will it go? and i think that is when the real pressure would be on jeb bush to do something. >> the thing about jeb bush is considering his name, the fact that in these polls he's somewhere in the teens is really telling. he's the most known candidate out there and yet he's very far back in the field. he should be by his name alone the front-runner and he's not and that says the base is not

interested. >> -- who represents conservative values in the age of the tea party. mitt romney was still the nominee last time. the republicans still want to nominate someone who they think can win. is that going to fall to rand paul? do you think that mission that he's got can carry? >> my first and second instinct is no. conventional wisdom is no. but we're living in a time of politics when you can't predict anything. we're living in a time of society you can't change anything. look how much everything has changed in just a few short years so who knows. >> i want to talk about immigration. we heard it from senator graham who had a very interesting and newsy sounpoint. president obama has this immigration crisis at the border. the number of unaccompanied children from central america crossing into the u.s. is starting to slow but it still leaves tens of thousands who are in the country and are still in limbo. and the debate over what should happen is ranging a long way from the border. kevin tibbles went to davenport, iowa, a town trying to decide whether to accept some of these child immigrants.

it's this week's "meeting america." >> reporter: on a clear july afternoon in davenport, iowa, the sights and sounds and smells of summer. waft up from the banks of the mississippi river. and even though it sits some 1500 miles from the southern border, america's immigration crisis is the subject of much agitation and debate. >> i don't want them here. >> we have to take care of them. >> davenport's mayor says he wants to shelter many of the young undocumented arrivals here in his town. for more than 65 years, the gentry shop and its rainbow of color and selection has been the place to go for those seeking an exact fit. owner greg kautz tailor was a keen eye. >> passionately as a father of

four, i understand, you know, the needs of children, and we have laws in place that are here to help us deal with what we have. >> reporter: he does not support the housing of those who have come here illegally. >> washington needs to get this immigration under control, and random placement of individuals in random places doesn't seem to me to be the way to find a long-term answer for these people. >> reporter: alderman bill edmund is a vocal opponent of the mayor's fan. >> i said i will stand in front of the buses if i have to to stop them and i'm not the only one. if you don't have borders, you don't really have a country. >> reporter: nearby at the coffee hound, bar ris thats grind and blend for customers who drop by to sip and chat. byron brown supports the may nor. >> i think the mayor should try to bring 5,000 of them here. i don't see how anyone could turn their back on an unaccompanied child. >> reporter: brown, who spent 20 years in the army, says it's

time america stepped up. >> one thing that people look to the united states for, that's just sense of hope, and once we stop giving that beacon of hope to the world, in my opinion we cease to exist. that's not what our country was founded on. if someone doesn't come in and help the children, they're going to be exploited. >> if they see that there are cities such as davenport that are accepting these people in, the word gets back really fast, and they'll send more of them. >> reporter: and then the sobering question of who pays and why. >> the reality is sort of a rough issue at times. we don't live in that society where we get to pick and choose. the law is the law. >> reporter: in davenport as elsewhere in america, it's a dilemma not easily sewn up. for "meet the press," kevin tibbles. >> our roundtable is back with this. i have talked to administration officials who say, gosh, it's so hard to think about sending children back. it's what makes this issue so complicated.

>> what also make it is complicated and there was a big story in "the washington post" is the administration has known about this for quite some time. that's where the frustration continues to bubbling over. if you knew about this, but we're in the middle of a campaign and trying to pass comprehensive immigration reform, can we trust you will handle this now. >> but the front lines of this with towns like davenport struggling and other cities, too, we're going to be a compassionate people, we can't just turn them away. >> and there's a lot of feeling -- there's a division in the administration between those who say compassion should come first and others say you have to deal with the border enforcement and the political context of this, and the bottom line is the president has to show more engagement, people are saying. >> look what lindsey graham is saying -- >> i think that pool shooting photo-op is still -- >> lindsey graham is staying immigration reform is dead. they're not going to get any more money but he also warns his own party this could be real trouble if they don't turn this around. who owns this as a political

liability? >> right now the president has to. the compassionate thing to do is to prevent these countries from sending these kids and that means putting the right incentives in place. >> and the right pressure. >> under the bush administration we had a similar problem with brazilians coming. the bush administration made a big show of sending a bunch back. word spread very quickly, and illegal crossings from -- >> look, if this was happening anywhere else in the country, we'd be passing the plate in church, raising money, pushing the other countries to take in the refugees. instead here our political system is broken. we have both parties from the far right and from the far left pushing for extreme options, and we have a president of the united states who is asleep at the switch. everyone own this is one. >> i think he wants the issue. >> we'll leave it there. thank you all very much. coming up here, a huge loss to science after some of the world's leading aids experts lost their lives on malaysia airlines flight 17. i will speak to world renowned aids researcher dr. anthony fau fauci about the friends and colleagues he lost. that's coming up. nded bristles

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if you're referring to something like if we had a crash landing on the moon, would we have something ready to go up immediately and retrieve those people? no, we would not. but we hope that we can have enough redundant systems so we don't have a crash landing on the moon to begin with. >> that was colonel john glenn, the first american to orbit the earth on "meet the press" talking about what was then just a dream, going to the moon. friday was glenn's 93rd birthday, and today is the 45th anniversary of apollo 11's lunar

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these were men and women who had dedicated their own lives to saving the lives of others, and they were taken from us in a senseless act of violence. >> that was president obama friday remembering the world's top aids experts who lost their lives on malaysia airlines flight 17 heading to the international aids conference in melbourne, australia. among those killed was renowned aids researcher joep lange, a former president of the international aids society. his loss and the loss of five others will leave a lasting impact on the future of aids work and global health. here with me to remember his friends and colleagues is dr. anthony fauci, director of national institute of allergy and infectious diseases at the national institutes of health. he is also at the conference in

melbourne. doctor, welcome. tony, we have been talking about geopolitics with regard to this disaster, but you give us some insight into the aching personal loss that so many people are feeling. >> well, it's really permeating the meeting, david. i just came out of the opening ceremony and a feeling of really great sadness and loss despite that the fact that there are many people in hiv aids research and advocacy, it's really a rather close-knit community because we focus on one particular disease, one particular virus. joe ep was very well-known, an extraordinary personality. i have known him and been working with him now for close to 30 years. he's really had a major impact among the europeans and even worldwide. he has been a very strong advocate for getting treatment, particularly for those people who are in most need. in fact, he's well-known for saying years and years ago, if

we can get coca-cola to the most remote parts of africa around elsewhere, why can't we get hiv drug there is, and he was constantly pushing. so he really was an inspirational thought leader, and his loss is really felt very, very severely by all of us here. >> tony, anybody who knows you knows you have been working for most of your career trying to combat hiv and aids. can you put into words as you think about your colleagues, think about the work at this conference, what has been lost? >> well, what has been lost are really extraordinary colleagues, activists who have been in it from the very beginning pushing the envelope. joep himself who has been an extraordinary colleague, he's made contributions clinically and basic research but really one of the most important things that he's done for the field, he's been an inspirational thought leader. someone who is very, very passionate about it. always pushing you to do more,

and it's that kind of positive tension that he led to the field that i'm going to miss personally dealing with him because he was constantly pushing me and my colleagues to do more and do better, and it's that kind of inspiration that all of us are going to miss. it's really a terribly sad day here in australia. >> what is the one area in your work that you focus on with renewed zeal given the loss of these colleagues? >> well, it's just to get better treatments and to get treatment to the people who need it because globally we have the drugs. joep himself was one of the people involved in the clinical trials to prove that the drug works. the real goal right now is to just get people involved in care, get them on treatment, not only to save their own lives but to bring their level of virus to the point where it would make it less likely for them to infect other people, and that's what we're you'll striving for and that was the thing that drove dr. lange. >> anthony fauci joining us from

melbourne. thank you so much. i appreciate it. >> you're welcome. and we'll be back here with the big question that's going to be driving the political debate this week.

here now some of this week's images to remember. >> powerful images this week and bill milestones, our images to remember. we've got the big question that's going to be the big debate all week long, is vladimir putin a threat to the world? jason, is that how he must be understood? >> absolutely. why is he going to stop at ukraine? if russian speakers are the

justification for this, protecting ethnic russians, why aren't the baltic states next? >> what does real western opposition look like, andrea? >> weak. it looks really weak. they are more interested in their economic interests. >> what should it look like, then? >> strong sanctions, energy, banking, all the rest of it, the arms deals. and you don't see it. in fact, france and italy have been pulling back against merkel and the uk. >> it's interesting, ron, people don't like to make comparisons to hitler. david cameron wrote, europeans should remember our history. that was not so veiled. >> i won't compare anybody to hitler. there's no doubt he's a threat to the world. a bully is a threat on any playground. the way you handle the bully, draw a line, say what you're going to do. when they cross the line, you do it. the west has not done that. president obama has not done that. >> the question is what to do. that's what is elusive. you heard from secretary kerry today. we don't want to get into the name calling business here. sounds like they are giving him

some room to step up. >> to see if he can step up and do what? to the point is he a threat to the world, when people flying on airplanes 33,000 feet in the air feel that they are not safe, that's a threat to the world. >> so ultimately western opposition looks like what? not how does it look now but what does it have to be? >> there's many things we can do. we can arm ukrainians to fight back. another thing we can do is start exploiting our own energy supply here so russia's current customers know going forward there will be alternatives whether you're europeans or so forth. we could do that. >> all right. we'll leave it there. you can find our big question and weigh in on the debate on our facebook page. that's all for today. we'll be back next week. if it's sunday, it's "meet the press."

welcome, i'm andrea mitchell, host of "andrea mitchell reports" on msnbc. and welcome to the aspen ideas festival in aspen, colorado, and the first msnbc great debate. our discussion today, does the nsa make us safer? nearly 13 years after the attacks of september 11th, america continues to face terrorist threats. last year revelations by edward snowden, a government contractor, shed light on the nsa's surveillance in the u.s. and around the world. since then the country has engaged in a vigorous debate about privacy rights in a