and for two of my guests today, the death of a staten island man following a confrontation with police as he was being arrest is a tragedy they're all too familiar with. with the faa moments ago extending its flight ban to israel's main international airport for another 24 hours, secretary of state john kerry today continued his shuttle diplomacy between israeli and palestinian leaders, trying to bring an end to a two-week-old war that's cost nearly 700 palestinians and 32 israeli soldiers their lives. just a short time ago, secretary kerry and israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu shook hands in front of cameras after their meeting. the photo op came shortly after kerry met president mahmoud abbas. kerry also met today with u.n. secretary general ban ki moon as well as the family of one of the americans killed serving in israel's army. yet, nothing so far has indicated that either side is

willing to come to the table and end the fighting, which has claimed the lives of hundreds of civilian, the vast majority of them palestinian. earlier today, nbc's ayman mohyeldin reported from gaza city on how no one, not even those already injured, are safe from attack. >> reporter: hospitals continue to be overwhelmed by the number of casualties. today another palestinian hospital was hit by the israeli military. at least now according to human rights organizations, there have been at least 18 different medical facilities, whether they be clinics, doctor's offices, or hospitals, that have come under some shape or form of an attack. >> in geneva today, the u.n. high commissioner for human rights chastised both sides for the deaths of civilians, criticizing israel for an attack on a different hospital and hamas for placing military assets near densely populated areas. saying that there was, quote, a strong possibility that war crimes have been committed. joining me now is the spokesman for israeli prime minister

benjamin netanyahu. first of all, thank you for being here, sir. appreciate it. >> my pleasure. >> and i want to start by talking about those military tactics that are being employed by the israeli defense forces in gaza, including air strikes on hospitals, on schools, even a soccer stadium. how do you respond to the u.n. high commissioner's concerns over possible war crimes and the basic criticism that bombing and shelling hospitals and private homes and even a beach are completely inappropriate in tactics of war? >> well, we don't want to see any civilians caught up in the conflict. we don't want to see a single civilian casualty, not one. our challenge is that our enemy is ruthless, and our enemy is firing their rockets from neighborhoods where we're trying to kill them. we're trying to be as pinpoint as humanly possible in a very difficult combat situation, but

our intention is not, i repeat, not to hurt gaza's innocent civilians. >> yet, sir, the death toll is essentially 70% civilians. does the israeli government or the idf have specific evidence that for instance the hospital or dozens of specific schools, the clinics, even the home of a prominent palestinian poet, do you have specific evidence that those places were harboring weapons or militants? >> i think it's best that i let the united nations speak for itself. the united nations twice in the last few days has released a report that in u.n. schools in gaza, they were storing munitions, they were storing rockets that are fired at our people. in doing so, hamas is not only obviously putting a school in danger, trying to get into a military target, but it's also violating u.n. neutrality and violating a school where people, you know, young people are supposed to learn. i think that shows us who hamas is. hamas ultimately is shielding

its military machine, the same machine that's shooting all those rockets into israel, some 2,000 rockets have been fired at our city, but they're shielding that machine by gaza civilians. it shows who hamas is. they have no respect for human life, not israeli or palestinian. >> with all due respect, the high commissioner did not say the hospital was harboring mill about -- militants. and she said the actions of one party do not resolve the obligation of the other party. surely you're not saying israel is under obligation to operate on a higher level of hamas. she specifically criticized your country and military for bombing hospitals and schools and private residences. can you respond to that specific criticism of the idf's tactics? >> yes, i can. i agree with the assumption that hamas are ruthless terrorists and targeting innocent civilians

doesn't absolve us of the responsibility to abide by conflict. and we're doing so. we're trying to be as surgical as humanly possible in a very difficult combat situation. the hospital that we unfortunately had to attack -- and we didn't attack a hospital. we attacked a specific command and control center inside a hospital. we asked everyone to leave because we were taking hostile fire from this hospital. what was interesting -- and i urge you to look at the video, which is up on the website of the israeli defense forces. you can see our shell goes in and causes a small explosion. then there are all these secondary explosions, which is clear evidence that hamas was using the hospital for military purposes. in other words, hamas had turned that medical facility into a war zone. >> you just said you didn't fire specifically at the hospital. i want to first of all ask you about when you're telling people to leave their homes, where are they expected to go? the entirety of gaza is being

shelled. that's one question. if you could also answer the question about the specific policy of israel to destroy the homes of people who are suspected of nothing more than just being related to armed militants. that's not then a policy that's against hamas militants but actually destroying homes of people who are just related to someone suspects of being militants. what do you say to the response that that's collective punishment? >> so i'll answer those -- both those questions in detail if you'll allow me. on the first question, to give the best example i can, we had very serious fighting in the refugee camp -- not refugee camp. it's a neighborhood of gaza. there was difficult house-to-house fighting between our forces and the hamas terrorists. we lost quite a few of our young men in that battle. before going in, we requested, we urged the civilian population to leave the area because we knew it was a battle zone. >> but to go where? we have very short time.

where are you asking people to go? there is nowhere safe in gaza right now. it's densely populated. where are you expecting people to go? >> i was about to answer that question. i was precisely going to make that point. so we leafletted the area and urged people to leave. i ask your nbc correspondent on the ground there in gaza. he can find them. we leafletted the area and drew a map and said, go to this specific safe area. in other words, it was particularly, specifically pointed out to the people there where they could go. and the people who went to that area were unharmed. can i make one more point please? >> we have very short time. i really want to answer you my second question as well. >> your viewers have to know something. we urge people to leave a dangerous combat zone. what did hamas say? do you know what hamas said? hamas urged them to stay. in fact, hamas put a lot of pressure on people to stay and not to leave the combat area. do you know why? because hamas wants them as human shields. hamas is interested, unfortunately, in human

casualties. they want to have -- to see maximum civilian deathst. it's a very sad thing to say, but hamas is not unlike those other radical extreme islamic movements like isis in iraq or hezbollah in lebanon or bo boko haram in nigeria. they really don't give a hoot about the civilian population of gaza. they're willing to sacrifice them all under an extremist agenda. >> sir, you didn't answer any first question. where are people supposed to remain? they no longer have a home. the second question is, is it an ethical policy to bulldoze the home of someone who's merely suspected of being related to someone that you deem to be a terrorist? wi wi >> with respect, i did answer your first question. we specifically urged people to go to a safe area that was outlined and detailed where people could go to, to be safe. as far as i know, everyone that

went to that area was unharmed and wasn't affected by the fighting in that specific area. so that's a specific answer. as to the second question you raise, what we do is we have targeted hamas command and control, places where hamas have set up their operational centers, places where hamas stores weapons, and we did yesterday for the secretary general of the united nations and today for john kerry, your secretary of state, we actually did a display to show exactly how it works. you have a civilian house and underneath you have a system of tunnel, an arsenal of weapons, and hamas comes out and shoots from that area and goes back underground. so what you see from up the top is, of course, only a building, a normal building. what is actually there is you have an integral part of the hamas war machine. and we urge people to leave these houses before we attack them, but we have to if we want to stop the rockets on our people, if we want to protect our people, we have to deal with these targets. we try to do so with as little as possible getting civilians

caught up in the crossfire. >> we are out of time, but i want to ask one final question. if you're asking people to leave homes that are going to be demolished or bombed, who is then responsible for -- right now it's at least 100,000 people who are now homeless. they cannot go back to their homes, even after this operation is over. who is responsible for those people? israel is the occupying authority. is israel now responsible for those essentially homeless and displaced people? >> listen, if you'll allow me, joy, i want to take issue with one important word you said. you said israel is the occupying authority. you're forgetting israel pulled out of the gaza strip. we took down all the settlements. the settlers who didn't want to leave, we forced them to leave. we pulled back to the 1967 international frontier. there is no israeli occupation of the gaza strip. we haven't been there for some eight years. now, why is there hostile rock fire today from gaza into israel? there's not a question of occupation of gaza. no one claims that. the reason for the violence is

this islamic extremism that hamas represents. when we pulled out of gaza, everyone supported that. the international community embraced the fact israel pulled out of gaza. they thought it would give peace a chance and there was hope that gaza could become and develop. there was money for investment, for schools, for industry. gaza was supposed to become this mediterranean singapore. we signed an agreement to allow access and trade and commerce and people to go back and forth. >> first of all, you're filibustering. i will point out -- and we have to wrap here -- >> hamas took over. >> we need to point out israel does control the coastline, the air space. gaza is not singapore. but i appreciate you coming on, sir. >> why, though, joy -- be fair. when we left, we didn't have those restrictions. we only imposed restrictions because of the violence, because of hamas, because of the rockets. you can't put the cart before the horse. the restrictions were a reaction to violence. had there been no violence, you

would have had open borders and trade. >> we'll have to leave it there. thank you very much, sir. appreciate you being here. >> thanks for having me. >> joining me now is the executive director of the jerusalem fund and palestine center. i hope you had a chance to listen to my interview with the spokesman for the israeli prime minister. your reaction? >> well, first of all, you know, i think tit's unfortunate we ca hear israeli spokespeople who are speaking on behalf of a military force that is inflicting massive civilian casualties on the ground stand here in front of your viewers and essentially blame the victims for their own deaths. i think there's something fundamentally wrong and, in fact, racist about that argument. of course, the israelis are going to try to defend what they're going on the ground. so i think you always need to consider the source. this issue of human shields is something we've heard time and

time again. this claim is not new. in fact, when there are independent investigations of what happens on the ground. for example, after the operation in 2008, 2009 in which the israelis killed 1400 palestinians, most of whom were civilians, amnesty international undertook a major investigation in the gaza strip and published a 100-page report in which they found no evidence of palestinians using palestinian civilians as human shields. but rather, instead, they found israeli ground troops were using palestinians as human shields. so while there's a war going on, it's very difficult for there to be independent corroboration of this and very easy, of course, for the israelis to make up info graphics and whatever else to claim palestinians, you know, just want to stand in front of israeli missiles. i really don't think that's the case. i don't think that, you know, independent reporting has proved that to be the case.

in fact, you know, nbc's correspondents on the ground, richard engel and ayman mohyeldin as well as a number of other western correspondents on the ground in the gaza strip have done a lot of fantastic reporting about what's really going on over there. we've seen so many people being told, you know, leave this location, go to this location, and then when they go there, those areas are being targeted as well. >> let me ask you this question, because the u.n. high commissioner was very clear on saying that as much as she expressed concern about the bombing of civilian facilities like hospitals and schools, she did also condemn hamas' practice of locating weapons very close to the very things she discussed, hospitals and schools. is there validity to that criticism, and is there something hamas is doing itself to put these civilians in danger? >> well, again, i think that, you know, the united nations'

human rights commission is going to do an independent investigation after this. they should be able to. all parties should cooperate with that. again, as they have done in the past, what we've seen in the past and what we're seeing today on the ground is a reality between a very strong state military force and a nonstate actor on the ground that's among a largely civilian population. and the reality is that the use of force in this space is inevitably going to create massive civilian casualties that cannot be justified by the military aims that they're seeking to get. i think the bigger question here is not a tactical one. the bigger criticism here is not merely a tactical one, but it's also a strategic one. the israelis launched a military operation in the gaza strip that they knew would cause massive civilian death, and they also knew would not significantly

change the military dynamic. that is the major crime in my view here. and i think that, you know, we should be demanding answers to these kinds of questions as to why the israelis decided to go in this direction when they could go through a peaceful direction, a diplomatic direction and address the legitimate grievances of palestinians on the ground. >> all right. we'll have to leave it there. we are out of time. thank you so much. >> thank you. >> all right. coming up, u.s. intelligence may not have directly linked the downing of flight mh-17 to russia, but events today could ratchet up the tension with separatists backed by vladimir putin's government. then, the case that's reviving age-old questions about excessive force and policing.

we'll be talking about what the family of eric garner now faces. and you are looking at live pictures of vice president joe biden speaking at the naacp convention in las vegas. we're monitoring it, and we'll bring you any news that comes out of it. you can also watch it streaming live on msnbc.com. that's why allstate claim free rewards gives you money back for every year you don't have one. and why if you're part of the other 5%, allstate offers claim rateguard. so your rates won't go up just because of a claim. no matter what comes your way, your home protects you. ...protect it back allstate home insurance from an allstate agent. a body at rest tends to stay at rest... while a body in motion tends to stay in motion. staying active can actually ease arthritis symptoms. but if you have arthritis, staying active can be difficult. prescription celebrex can help relieve arthritis pain

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today is a day of mourning in the netherlands, where the first bodies of victims of malaysia airlines flight 17 arrived just a short time ago. the dutch king, queen, and prime minister joined hundreds of relatives and friends of the victims in a ceremony at the airport. and moments ago crowds lined the streets as a procession of 40 hearses transported the remains to military barracks where

forensic experts will begin the painstaking task of identification. dutch officials say more bodies are expected tomorrow. meanwhile, u.s. intelligence officials continue to lay out their case on the targeting of flight mh-17. while admitting there is no evidence of direct russian involvement, intelligence officials say these satellite images show activity picking up at a russian base since june. the base is suspected of directly aiding russian separatists. they also released these images picked up from social media supposedly showing movement of surface-to-air missile launchers, all of them in range of the malaysia air flight path. meanwhile, the fighting continues in the disputed region near where the plane went down. today ukraine's defense minister confirms two ukrainian military fighter jets were shot down over the eastern part of the country. this is video posted by a pro-separatist leader to youtube shortly after the attack. it shows the wreckage of at least one jet as people are heard discussing plans to capture the pilots.

nbc has not independently verified the authenticity of this video. ukraine's security council says preliminary information indicates the missiles were fired from russian territory. jim, what is the latest? >> well, u.s. military and intelligence officials are scrambling to try to confirm the information coming from the ukrainian government, but i can tell you many sources here and in other agencies have said whatever the ukrainians have charged in the past has pretty much been reliable. they're particularly interested in the fact that at least two of these ukrainian fighter jets were shot down today. now, if they were shot down directly over ukrainian territory as the ukrainians claim, it could have been the separatists shot them down with shoulder-fired missiles. if those missiles were fired actually from russia, perhaps they were those buk missiles, longer range missiles that, in

fact, would have to be fired from a launcher. but what this does show is both sides, despite the tragic shooting down of that malaysian airliner a week ago tomorrow, that both sides are not backing down. the ukrainians are still flying combat missions over that eastern ukraine area held by the separatist, and the separatists are clearly firing back, joy. >> all right. thanks very much, jim. appreciate it. we'll be right back. vo: this is the summer. the summer that summers from here on will be compared to. so get out there, and get the best price guaranteed. find it for less and we'll match it and give you $50 toward your next trip. expedia. find yours.

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garner has only just begun, the questions and the anger will likely never die. a vigil and march was held in staten island last night where participants carried signs and chanted, no justice, no peace. that is the theme that's emerged from the death, a death that many say could have been prevented. >> you're not talking about a policeman that says, i thought he had a weapon and i reacted and shot. you talking about a policeman that knew he had no weapon, put him in an illegal chokehold, and after 11 times him saying, i can't breathe, kept choking him. >> garner died last week after police appeared to have placed him in a chokehold, a maneuver that's prohibited by the department. amateur video shows the confrontation during which garner is heard saying, i can't breathe, multiple times. video that we do want to warn

you may be disturbing. >> every time you see me, you want to mess with me. i'm tired of it. don't touch me, please. do not touch me. i can't breathe! i can't breathe. i can't breathe. i can't breathe. >> eric garner was later pronounced dead at the hospital. the official cause of death has not been determined, pending a full investigation. two emts and two ma ra medics have been suspended without pay and an nypd officer has been stripped of his gun and badge while an internal affairs unit investigates. and the district attorney's office has also opened its own case. however, as the daily news reported this week, the first internal nypd report on the incident does not mention a chokehold. and it goes on to state that garner was, quote, not in great distress. at a news conference yesterday, new york police commissioner bill bradn to called for a top-to-bottom review and complete retraining of the

force. >> i would anticipate that coming out of this effort that there will be a retraining of every member of the new york city police department in the weeks, months, and potentially years ahead. >> and joining me now, kadiatou diallo, the mother of amadou diallo. in 1991, police fired 40 shots at him while reaching into his wallet. also joining me is the fiance of sean bell, who was killed in the early morning hours before his wedding in november of 2006. we should mention in both cases, the officers in both cases were not criminally convicted, but the victims' families did reach multiple dollar settlements with the city. thank you both for being here. and kadiatou, i want to start with you. walk us through what the family of eric kbarner must be dealing with now. because it's a combination of the grief from losing your loved one, the obvious grief, but also

suddenly being thrust into the public spotlight and having your loved one's life sort of dissected in public as well. >> first and foremost, my condolences to the family. i'm sad after 15 years since amadou was gunned down in his own vestibule, 41 bullets shot at him for no reason, cases after cases have been -- many people have lost their children in the hands of those who are supposed to protect and serve. the family of eric garner will see that their life will never be the same, like mine. when i crossed the ocean and came to this country to defend my sons, not only to call for justice, it was a national debate nationwide. we wanted to implement positive changes. we have been working we elected officials and to pass laws

because only strong laws will help us to prevent this. they will go through not only defending their sons but also to give him back his story because, you know, the reporting and the negativity on the image of their loved one is unpreventable. and that is sad. >> and i mean, i remember amadou diallo becoming such a touch stone and an iconic image around people rallying on this issue of police and their contact with civilians, particularly with people of color. then all these years later for your fiance, sean bell, to go through the same thing after we'd had that huge national conversation around amadou dial diallo. give me your thought, nicole. why do you suppose we're still here having this same conversation again? >> it's a terrible cycle. watch the family, the wife, his sister, and his family it's almost like looking at your

reflection again and realizing they're holding on to whatever courage and strength that they have just to plead out for justice. at the end of the day, the families want justice. this should have never happened. cameraphones these days are your power. what happened to sean and the tragedy with my family and mrs. diallo, we didn't have that. so many people were forced to argue back and forth of what was right or could have happened. here we see this man being respectful. he was tackled down to the floor. there was an illegal chokehold. it's a vicious cycle that continues to happen. sean was killed eight years ago this year, and now we're here in 2014 and still crying for the same thing all over again. so watching these families, it's almost like watching yourself. we pray that this family receives justice on a criminal level, which my family did not

receive. >> yeah, and nor did your family. the point -- and i think for a lot of people, even with the video, you know, people at this point with the rodney king case having happened many years ago are very cynical about the prospects for the families to at least in the criminal court system receive what they believe to be justice because of the wide latitude that police do have in the use of force. do you think that there has been any change in terms of that? i know your organization does try to work along in terms of improving police relations with the community. but in terms of the tactics police are allowed to use, there's such wide latitude. >> the amadou diallo foundation, which i am founder and president, and former mayor dinkins is the chairman, we have worked hand in hand to help communities and organize lectures. i have traveled across the country to bring people the real story, the humanity of my loved one and also to touch people's

lives because you never know. in the classroom where in college campuses, maybe a student is sitting there who will become a police officer or will become a civilized lawyer or will become an advocate for justice and peace. so i did that. now i am also calling on the new administration -- >> someone you've worked with. >> yes, mayor bill de blasio and the new commissioner. because it's not going to help to just say send us photos of a good story. here we are after all our loss and pain and agony. we still want to reach out and work with them, let them seize this opportunity so that we can do real changes, so we can prevent this from happening again. because it's a cycle. >> and what would you like to see change? do you have a hope that the criminal justice system will work for the family of eric garner? >> absolutely. we pray that -- first, we pray that this family is

strengthened. but when you have the accountability of these men who are creating or killing these innocent men and no one's being held accountability, the community begins to lose the faith. my job, even with my organization, is to just pray and hope and instill that faith into the community. we hold forums like the know your rights summit where we work together with police officers and top-ranking officers and community activists to really try to come together in hopes of learning how to avoid these situations, but also if you find yourself in this encounter, how to make it out alive. so for me and for my family, for everyone in my community, we've seen this happen before. and we -- it is time -- we can't afford to have this continue to happen to anyone. this is not just a black issue. this is not an african-american

issue. this is an american issue. this is a human rights issue. with organizations like mine and mrs. diallo, we are strongly holding on to that hope that change will come and that the new administration does something that they didn't do before. and we're starting to see that. you know, we've seen -- they've been assigned to desk duty. in the case with sean bell that, didn't happen right away. it took us months of fighting just to receive that little bit. so we're seeing some improvement here. but everyone's going to be watching. we'll be watching. on behalf of the victims, i really pray for this family. and all of the community to stand strong. this will be a long haul again. >> yeah, indeed. i wish we had more time. >> joy, let me quickly say -- >> yes, indeed. >> condemning the act of a few officers does not say we're against police officers. we want the good policing, and we want to work with them. >> very important. >> and we want to support the

families also. >> absolutely. i'm very glad you added that. very important to say. kadiatou diallo and nicole paultre bell. thank you so much. >> thank you for having us. >> after the break, we'll dig deeper into race and law enforcement culture with msnbc's toure and security export. cut! [bell rings] this...is jane. her long day on set starts with shoulder pain... ...and a choice take 6 tylenol in a day which is 2 aleve for... ...all day relief. hmm. [bell ring] "roll sound!" "action!" ♪ every now and then i get a little bit tempted ♪ ♪ by the chocolate all around ♪ turn around brian! ♪ this bar has protein oh yeah!♪ [ female announcer ] fiber one. ♪ this bar has protein oh yeah!♪ really... so our business can be on at&t's network for $175 dollars a month?

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disputing claims that race was a factor when officers used an apparent chokehold on eric garner, who died not long after his arrest. a security expert and former secret service agent joins us. and toure is co-host on "the cycle" and an author of several books, including "who's afraid of post-blackness." we want to note the eric garner incident is under investigation. the cause of death is not yet known. that having been said, one of the things that we have heard, evie, from the nypd, there'ses a buzzfeed article quoting a guide that says, quote, members of the new york city police department will not use chokeholds. a chokehold shall include but is not limited to any pressure to the throat or windpipe which may hinder breathing or reduce intake of air. when you look at that amateur video of the incident with eric garner, in your opinion, was a chokehold used? >> in my opinion, yes, because

you do see an obstruction of the airway. you see them take him down and hold it. but this is the thing. in that moment, it's what was that police officer thinking? was he understanding he was putting a chokehold on him and thus, you know, not allowing him to breathe? but we do hear the victim say, you know, i can't breathe, i can't breathe. that's the issue there. >> well, the friend of his who shot the video did speak to our own tamron hall on "news nation." this is what he had to say about what was going on in the atmosphere when this happened. take a listen. >> what were people around there doing? were you able to hear the crowd yelling at the officers, that mr. garner was in trouble? what did you hear? >> everybody just screaming to take the cuffs off of him, put oxygen mask on his face, do some type of cpr. everybody's concern was his breathing. >> could you hear him say those words now that have been chanted at the rallies for him, i can't

breathe? >> yes. >> you heard him? >> yes. >> did you believe his life was in danger at that point? >> yes. >> if bystanders could hear him saying, i can't breathe, we can clearly hear it on the tape, in that moment, do police officers take into account the atmosphere, what they're hearing, or is it just the use of force applied in this situation? >> when you're in it, you're not in it. you're sometimes not hearing everything that's going on around you. your adrenaline rush, the focus, all those things come into factor. the idea is you're supposed to have training so you don't have those things impede your decision making skills. but they should be looking at him. so when you do see the tape, you see that they're putting him down on the floor. he's saying, i'm not breathing. you have to have that mindset where you can clearly hear and listen and look at the individual. now, on one side, can you say somebody's lying, pretending they can't breathe and make they're doing something to try to trick police? yes, obviously, that happens. but you see the numbers there. you see there's enough personnel that they're able to handle the

situation. so i think in this situation, they should have really listened and focused on what was going on. you can't let the outside distractions affect you. that's what law enforcement is. >> right. and toure, we just had on kadiatou diallo, the mother of amadou diallo, nicole paultre. i think people's cynicism when they approach this comes from the fact those two incidents happened six years apart. now this many years later, we're still here. how do you assess the fact we're still here having this conversation? >> the one word i would add to what you said is fear. the officers are clearly afraid of this man, even though they seem to have already known him, had interactions with him in the past, but perhaps because he was so much larger than them, that they were afraid of him and applied this excessive force, even though they know he didn't have a weapon. think about in what situations do human beings apply excessive force to beings that don't have weapons?

o to animals, right? if you don't look at this person as a full human being, and i think in a lot of these situations, that's the officer mentality that you get to. then you would treat people like that and this becomes yet another of those stories that exists in the black collective memory. you know, we see it on the t-shirts and the panltings. we hear it in these lists. now eric garner joins sean bell, amadou diallo, oscar grant, and the list goes on and on. over an over. we feel under assault by the police, that we are guilty before proven innocent by the police, and they are an occupying force in our communities. you know, we just got out from under the era of stop and frisk, which is still happening nationally, not just in new york. but even still, they are this occupying force, assuming we need to be corralled before we commit crime rather than policing us, rather than protecting and serving us.

it's very painful to live with that reality. >> if you could speak to the cynicism, because everyone who's talked to me about this case is essentially assuming the result in this case in terms of the criminal side of it will be exactly what it was in the diallo case and in the sean bell case, that nothing will really be done. specifically, the officer who did put eric garner in that apparent chokehold has been sued twice before for civil rights violations is according to reports. what about this sense that there's almost nothing that would bring about, i guess, an outcome in which a police officer is really held to sort of account when these things happen. >> look, they have to look at it from the moment, from the perspective of the police officer at that moment. now, i know you mentioned that he wasn't armed, but you can't know that for sure. he's not frisked until after the fact. >> but they could see his hands. >> this is the thing. you can't make the assumption. he's wearing a baggy shirt. he could have something tucked in his waistband. i'm just pointing out the logical, rational decision. when you approach someone, it's what do i have in that moment? i can see your hands, but it's not to say something's not on

you. >> they know this individual from the community. >> it doesn't matter. it's irrelevant. what am i dealing with in that moment in time from that perspective. after the fact, we can say, look, he didn't have a weapon, he didn't have these things. when this goes to trial, what happens is they look at it from the perspective of what was happening in that moment. what did that police officer perceive in that moment? what threat? >> he's on the ground. they're surely in control of his body. at that point, why not pull back at that moment? we can hear him say, i can't breathe. we know the officers are stressed, anxious. they don't want to be killed. i understand that. these officers want to go home every day, and they are in deep fear every time they stop a car or person. full respect for that difficulty for police officers. >> i'm going to pose a question do both of you quickly. does the public need to know more about the use of force matrix and about the range of what can happen to you in a situation where you're confronting police? i don't think people understand. even raising your voice can

initiate force and escalate force. would that help? >> we both have sons. we tell our boys, as i was told, how not to enflame the police so we don't get killed. that's like telling our daughters how not to get raped when the problem is the boys who rape them. the problem is the police officers, black and white and brown, who don't treat our people properly. the police officers need to be more aware of how we can and cannot treat our citizens. that black and brown citizens are not all criminals and need to be restrained and there are cameras everywhere. rodney king was not the only one who was beaten like that. eric garner was not the only one choke holded like that. there were others, just cameras in these situations. >> and the people who beat rodney king also were not -- >> they were acquitted. it's education and training. i agree. you need to educate the criminal justice system. you have to train them properly. they don't get proper education. just because you go through an academy eight months doesn't mean you know what you're doing. tactical training, shooting,

it's all skills. you have to constantly be teaching and teaching, that way when something like that happens, you're not iffy or not sure what to do. you know what to do. you know not to put a chokehold. you know to release. at that point when he's on the ground, you need to say, okay, we've got him under control and relieve that pressure off of him. >> i wish we had more time. there's a show that comes on after ours. oh, wait a minute. it's your show. i have to let you go. >> we are going to talk about this on our show. >> excellent. good. we'll definitely be tuning in. toure, thank you so much. evy, thank you. wish we had more time. after the break, we will -- actually, we'll just be right back. yoplait. it is so good for everyone's midnight cravings.

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get it at discover.com "the reid report." i'll see you back here tomorrow at 2:00 p.m. eastern. be sure to visit us online. "the cycle" is up next. did toure make it back on time? yes, he did. >> just barely. >> i told you i was going to send him back. what do you have coming up? >> toure did make it to our set.

>> excellent. >> nbc news has not confirmed that yet. >> but like you today, we will be keeping our eye on all developments around the world, in gaza, the ukrainian investigation, of course, and also i know you've been covering the eric garner situation. i'm going to be doing an editorial looking at why in so many places police departments ban or restrict even taking these kinds of videos and why that's an important issue. that's all ahead. >> very important. looking forward to it. "the cycle" comes up next. business, with startup ny. we've created tax free zones throughout the state. and startup ny companies will be investing hundreds of millions of dollars in jobs and infrastructure. thanks to startup ny, businesses can operate tax free for 10 years. no property tax. no business tax. and no sales tax. which means more growth for your business, and more jobs. it's not just business as usual. see how new york can help your business grow, at startup.ny.gov

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you're in "the cycle." this is a day of major developments in big stories. first, pro-russian rebels shoot down two ukrainian military jets. can we conclusively link the weapons they're using to putin? and the u.n. now says it will investigate possible war crimes inside gaza as the civilian death toll there continues to climb, while secretary of state john kerry meets with leaders this morning of hopes of brokering a truce. will the shooting stop?

and back here at home, the battle for the senate's focused on georgia, where democrats hope to flip a seat blue after last night's surprised victory in the nine-week gop runoff. and we start with new developments on the faa banning u.s. flights into tel aviv. nbc's tom costello has the details. tom, thanks for being here. we just heard from the state department. what is the latest? >> well, the bottom line is the state department says, in fact, hamas does have rockets capable of hitting tel aviv. as for the decision on the part of the faa to extend yet again by 24 hours that prohibition against any u.s. carriers flying into or out of tel aviv, that remains in effect. that means american, delta, and united airlines not flying in or out. that means the major israeli carrier, the flag carrier out of israel, is really the o