there's not one way to do something. no details too small. american express open forum. this is what membership is. this is what membership does. is there another ceasefire? breaking news this morning on the broken ceasefire in gaza where intense fighting resumed overnight. hamas spokesman has confirmed to nbc news that they have agreed to another 24-hour ceasefire. there is no word yet, though, on that from the israeli government. israel says its naval, air and ground assault resumed after hamas fired seven rockets into israeli territory, 25 in all since the fighting resumed. hamas 34i8 tants claimed responsibility for the rockets.

the israeli security cabinet is meeting again to discuss how much further it's going to go. the death toll is now mounting with at least 1,000 palestinians and 45 israelis killed. palestinian health officials say they were able to pull more bodies from the wreckage during yesterday's lull in violence. for the latest on the ground, we'll turn to nbc news's martin fletcher live in tel aviv. what's the latest? >> reporter: hi, steve. this ceasefire is getting confusing. yes, hamas agreed to a ceasefire but it didn't take effect because it was more firing both from hamas and israel. what happened with the countdown to the ceasefire was last night israeli accepted a 24-hour ceasefire. hamas rejected it. then there was a question of whether israel was hoping they would continue with the ceasefire anyway, but they didn't so stlal began bombing gaza again and now hamas said, yes, they do accept the ceasefire after all.

now we're not sure what israel is doing. they're still fighting and we're waiting to see whether the ceasefire takes hold. a ceasefire is such an urgent condition for the people in gaza, another 24-hour humanitarian ceasefire giving the palestinians more time to stock up on food and water, more time to dig tout dead and wounded from the rubble. we talk about more than 1,000 palestinians dead. there's about 6,000 wounded. families in gaza trying to get to the hospital to see their lved ones, see how serious they are. in israel what they're demanding here, the government and the military, is that, if there's a ceasefire israeli demands the right to continue looking for those secret tunnels and destroying them. that's israeli's condition for a ceasefire, they can continue finding the tunnels that threaten israeli civilians. >> martin, is there potentially a calculation here? i know we were talking about this on the show when these ceasefire offers come out, the prospect of a ceasefire is in

the air, one of the sides intentionally prolongs the decision because they want to get in a little more of their military activity before saying yes to a ceasefire? >> i think that definitely seems to be part of it. that's the pattern. that's what's happening. on the one hand you think, well, hamas really should be thinking of its own people, and the longer humanitarian ceasefire lasts, the better it is. for israel there is a need to continue to destroy the tunnels according to the israeli spokesman. each side has its interest in continuing the fighting and pausing in the fighting. meanwhile, fighting going on right now waiting for the ceasefire to take effect. >> thanks to martin fletcher live in tel aviv. we'll bring you the breaking developments on this story including more live reports from gaza and israel. turning now to the crisis on the u.s. border, president obama met with the presidents of honduras,

el salvador and guatemala to address the unprecedented flow of undocumented children from those countries into the united states. the administration says they discussed how to deter children from making the dangerous journey north by themselves, how to coordinate law enforcement and protect minors returned to their home countries. congress appears to be moving toward a plan for a quarter of the $3.7 billion that the white house says it wants. congress is due to skip town at the end of next week. on friday president obama urged them to take action before doing so. >> it is my hope that speaker boehner and house republicans will not leave town for the month of august for their vacations without doing something to help solve this problem. there have been a lot of press conferences about this. we need action and less talk. >> emerging plan from house

republicans would also amend the 2008 anti-trafficking law to make it easier to deport unaccompanied minors. democratic leaders in the house and senate say that's a non-starter for them which raises the possibility that the republican plan will be dead on arrival. the obama administration is also considering a range of additional actions it could take on its own including a draft plan reported to be under review that would provide refugee status for hundreds of children who could apply directly from honduras. the goal would be to deter the minors from making the dangerous trek on their own while still providing asylum. with more than 600,000 undocumented minors traveling to the u.s. in the last nine months, the proposal would only help a small sliver of those looking to flee. texas governor rick perry has put forward his own plan for dealing with the undocumented immigrant crisis. he announced his intention to send 1,000 national guard troops to the texas-mexico border next

month. his aim is to combat drug violence on the u.s. side of the border. it appears perry will have the power to order the troops to make arrests if he so chooses. it's unclear whether the government will support this action. is it a coincidence the official launch of the 2016 presidential campaign season is only months away from now? perry didn't do that well last time around. one of his weaknesses in the republican party was his support for in-state tuition for undon'ted youth. the job of the president and congress seems increasingly likely, it seems that perry could be positioning himself for another run. could rick perry's attempt to rebrand himself as a strong texas conservative really work in the context of all this. we're here to discuss that issue and everything else around the border, msnbc political analyst michael steele, former chairman of the republican national

committee, april ryan, and evan the white house reporter for buzzfeed.com. we're in washington, let's start with the issue in washington right now. april, i'll start with you. we have this emerging plan in the house right now. house republicans want to put together, they want to bring the price tag down under a billion dollars. it appears to be aa important number. they want to change the 2008 anti trafficking law. the question that raises, one, could that get through congress? even if it gets through congress, would the white house be willing to sign off on any changes to that 2008 law? >> well, when you have the head of homeland security who is saying he's not wanting to really tamper too much with that 2008 law, they'll go with them, particularly at a time when we're talking military and things of that nature, this man, jeh johnson understands the rick

perry issue. they're taking their lead from the national security folks, from what's happening around the world with if leaders like the president just met with. and they're also listening to jeh johnson. if they do cut the money, that's one thing. but to delve into cutting that 2008 law is something they don't want to deal with right now. >> how does that play in congress then? the two issues here, there's a band of republicans i think who are pretty much going to vote against anything. boehner to get this through the house is going to need democratic votes. obviously it's got to go through the democratic controlled senate. how does this' merging plan with the qulid of changes to the 2008 law, the real radical reduction to the price tag, does that have a chance of getting through congress? >> the important thing to start with is the context of the 2008 law. what that law requires is if minors who come from these uncon nexted countries show up on our border, that they are granted a chance to go through a hearing

process to find out if they deserve asylum or not. the white house has signaled -- i met with a senior administration officials last week who said they don't want to see too many changes to that law that could derail all possibility of asylum hearings completely. they like to speed that process along, make it easier to make that happen. there's been some conversations about kind of getting rid of most of that. so the white house i don't think is going to sign off on that. they get pressure from democrats to not sign off on a thing -- >> initially they were sending different signals, but part of it has been a reaction -- meanwhile the clock is ticking. a week till vacation time for these guys. michael, i want to -- >> the all-important august vacation. >> i want to bring you in on this rick perry thing. we talked about what he's doing with the national guard. i think the most important context for that, what he's doing right now is this which happened in september 2011 at a

republican debate. i want to play it and talk to you about it. >> you say that we should not educate chish who have come into our state for no other reason than they've been brought there by no fault of their own. i don't think you have a heart. >> rick perry was going to be the conservative answer to mitt romney for republicans in 2012. he started talking like that about immigration and this great some of conservative movement that was going to coalesce around him, it didn't happen. is what we're seeing from rick perry is a response to what he thinks killed his presidential -- >> no. i don't think so. i think one has very little to do with the other. in that clip she's talking about children already in his state and what the state is going to provide for them since they're there. this situation is about children who are coming into the state currently who are not in the system, who are not connected to the infrastructure of the state through education, health care and all that. from his perspective, they're

two very separate issues. >> the idea of using the national guard -- >> i understand what the governor is doing. you have to understand, he's a governor of a state. we have 50 independent states and independent governors that make decisions that affect their state. when the government fails to act, then the governor is going to take whatever action the governor deems necessary and appropriate to provide for the common defense, if you will, in some censor to provide for the citizens and their states some what the governors decide to do, since the federal government has not come in to try to control the flow, that we're going to take whatever actions will necessary to do that. you can put this in the political context and everybody wants to do this. >> that's what i do. >> and project to 2016. as a former lieutenant governor of a state who dealt with homeland security issues, working with our governor, there's a different conversation for the governor than just the politics of this. >> but the devil is in the

details. you know as my former lieutenant governor of the state of maryland there's something called posse come that dass. that's why the government hasn't declared this a state of emergency for the national guard to go in. if the national guard were to go in the president obama declared it an emergency, they would not be able to make arrests. so for rick perry to do it himself would be better -- >> because for the governor, it's an emergency. he can't wait for the federal government to decide what is and is not an emergency in his state. >> i think the reason why -- when i put the political lens on, the reason i'm suspicious, we're talking about a situation where at its heart, kids coming across the border, the first thing they're doing is turning themselves in. is that a situation that calls for the national guard? from a political context does it sound good to say i'm bringing in -- >> that's the problem. he wants to stop the flow in. it's not the idea when they get

here they turn themselves in, it's the idea that they're still coming in. >> from a political perspective, it's clear what perry is projecting. the it's perry with sean hannity on a boat with a big machine gun, a military helicopter. this is a militarization of this issue that perry is putting his name on the front of. as you mentioned from that debate, itches at that debate, i covered that debate when i was covering the election last time around. it really wasn't about -- perry was in good position about what he does with the border. as michael said, when they are already across the border, that was the problem perry had. i don't see anything from this that suggested -- >> all these issues kind of together -- >> perry is actually going away from the republican party if he's doing this really because to a certain extent he is actually going to ask the

federal government for money for the national guard to supplement this request, and this is something that the republican party doesn't want to development they don't want to keep funding things and projects. >> the white house has looked into the national guard down there. >> they have looked into it but they are not doing -- they're not going to federalize and make a declaration, because it's posse come tadas -- >> we're not all latin scholars. >> sorry. >> only one cup of coffee. >> so it's when it's believed that the u.s. military is not allowed to patrol within the united states its own borders. so if indeed the federal government were to -- >> that's a federal question. >> no, rick perry originally asked president obama to do this. >> and the president said no. let's be clear here. you can posse cum tadas all day

long. at the end of the day the governor gets to decide how he's going to protect his borders. >> the devil is in the details. >> it is an interesting point there, too, because that is part of this republican proposal is about federal action in terms of the national guard. also i think more importantly s.a.t. scores among our audience went up 100 points. we'll see you later throughout the show. still ahead, the sharp divide on how to handle the border crisis in one of the bluest states in the country. that's next. when you get guaranteed low prices on everything you buy the most, everybody gets excited! staples. make more happen for less. ever dream of being the hero? hey, you guys mind warming this fella up for me? i'm gonna go back down, i saw some recyclables. be him with verizon xlte. find a car service. we've doubled our 4g lte bandwidth thanks!

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with 57,000 undocumented children at the border in the last month alone, the federal government is scrambling to find

places to house them. yesterday ram emanuel said they would provide shelter to an additional 1,000 kids and asked the local legal community to provide a pro bono council. the state's governor, scott walker says, quote, if we're not having a rapid process to get back to the country of origin they're going to basically blend into whatever community, state and country they're in. that's going to have costs and drain the entire system. that highlights the way this issue of uchb accompanied minors at the border is dividing communities across the country. nowhere is this debate more heated right now than in massachusetts, a state that is deeply blue in presidential years but much more complex when you look under the hood. democratic governor deval patrick has offered to provide two locations that would shelter 1,000 children, one in cape cod and another in western massachusetts. >> america and this commonwealth in particular has given

sanctuary to desperate children for centuries. we have rescued irish children from familiar lynn, russian and ukrainian children from religious persecution, cam v cambodian children from genocide, haitian children from earth quakes, sudanese children from civil war and children from new orleans from hurricane katrina. once in 1939 we turned our backs on jewish children fleeing the nazis and it remains a blight on our national reputation. >> in an interview with msnbc's chris hayes, patrick emphasized the federal government could cover the cost and the average stay would be just 35 days. >> we're talking about a short-term duration, housing a limited number of people in a secure facility, not integrating them in communities because indeed they're being processed through and under the i'm prescription laws, and it's a way to relieve the suffering of

children. >> despite patrick's humanitarian message his proposal has stoked a heated backlash. a boston globe poll found the state divided over the plan, 50% supporting it, 43% opposing it. opponents staged a rally at the statehouse in boston. earlier this week in a town where one of the bases he wants to house the children is located, residents vented their anger. >> it's our town. we don't know how many people are coming, wer don't know if they're gang members or whatever. my feeling is this whole invasion of our country is against the constitution. >> how will the governor's offer to house these children fare in the face of local resistance? what impact will that have on the obama administration's plan to deal with them. joining me from massachusetts, former democratic senator mo cowen, supports the proposal to shelter the children, republican

state representative mark lombardo who opposes the governor's plan. >> representative, i'll start with you. we played that clip from governor patrick's press conference last week, a very moving press conference. you heard him outline that history. a temporary proposal paid for by the federal government, to house them while they're processed. did that not move you to hear the governor put it in those terms? >> i think what we also heard was the governor talking about his need to act because he's a humanitarian. for 16 months in massachusetts we watched how the governor treated justin. he's no humanitarian. >> please speak to this issue. he laid out specific perimeters in terms of temporary housing, up to 35 days, this is while they're proposed, on military bases, away from the general communities, not using local services. within those parameters, on the face of the humanitarian history

that he outlined there, what's your objection to this? >> when we look at whether massachusetts can handle this, we have to look at the financial situation here. in the last several years, sales tax raised $25%, $500 million tax increase, the governor wanted $2 billion. why is this important to realize? the governor passed these tax increases on the basis that we didn't have the revenue to provide basic services for the residents of massachusetts, our streets, our bridges, our local aid to our cities to fund police, fire and teachers. it would seem before we open our pocketbooks to take care of those who shouldn't be in the country, we certainly should try to take care of those who are here, massachusetts residents. according to the governor's own arguments, we don't have the revenue to do so. >> senator cowen, i'm curious to get your response. i hear them saying federal government is going to pay for this. i see 43% of people opposed to

it. listening to representative lombardo. what is your response to what you're hearing from him and opponents in general? >> first of all, i want to applaud the governor for standing up and doing what americans do when there's a need for americans to step up. he's done that with his remarks last week and his indication he'll work with the federal government if, if there's a need to house migrant children here for a short amount of time. there's no doubt that the commonwealth, like every other state, still faces a number of challenges. we cannot use that as a false excuse not to step up and aid in this humanitarian crisis. the federal government has been clear that this would be a limited amount of time and housing for a limited number of children. i think the polls reflect there's a great deal of misinformation and misunderstanding about the current state of affairs. and there are those who use that information and misunderstanding to their benefit, to stoke the fires against immigration, against immigrants and i think it's shameful and it's un-american.

the reality is this is what america does when there is a humanitarian crisis. americans step up. we aid. there's a federal law on the books for those who claim that this is against the law. what is happening now is in fidelity with the law for children who come from central american countries, who come as unaccompanied minors. we must by law take them, process them, ensure they are healthy and engage in our lawful immigration practices to determine what shall become of them. if we house the children here, that's what will happen here, that is the law, that is what massachusetts does and that's what we should do. >> senator, sdwrouft follow up on that, one thing i wonder when we look at the poll. we played the clip from borne, other incidents, too. since this is an offer from governor patrick, we don't know what the administration in washington is going to decide.

do you think it's less likely the obama administration will say, okay, we take you up on this offer? >> i'm not certain about that. i haven't spoken with the white house or anyone in congress on this issue, but i think what's important for the people in massachusetts to understand, and this is easy to understand if you go to the statehouse remember site, the governor's website or the department of homeland security, before any side is selected in this state or any other, there would need to be an evaluation to determine whether it's suitable. governor patrick showed an act of leadership by saying we have two sites, two military bases here that have the capacity in a moment of need in a limited amount of time potentially to house these children. he in no way said it will happen. he did say and i'm proud as a friend and someone who worked alongside with him and as a zit own of this commonwealth, he said if the need is there, if the country calls, the people of massachusetts will answer. >> it's an interesting question

for people to be looking at from across the country. we look at massachusetts and say this is a blue state and we assume a proposal like this is going to go over well with the public. it's a much more complicated question as i think you're seeing her. my thanks to mo cowan and marc lombardo. two of the most influential acronyms in washington make their case for what's best in america. stay with us. ...when the world called for stealth... ♪ ...intelligence... endurance... affordability... adaptability... and when the world asked for the future. staying ahead in a constantly evolving world. that's the value of performance. northrop grumman. that's the value looki prefer today.eeks? clairol age defy color collection. with our best breakthrough gray coverage. lustruous, radiant color that looks 10 years younger.

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if it becomes simpler... if frustration and paperwork decrease... if grandparents get to live at home instead of in a home... the gap begins to close. so let's simplify things. let's close the gap between people and care. ♪ usually you have to wait until the fall to see a good political debate. today you're in look. since control of the congress is on line just a few months from now, we decided to stage our own debate between the two parties to set the stage, you know republicans now control the house. to take it back, democrats need to gain 17 seats this november, something very hard for the party that controls the white house to do in a midterm election. if you were watching yesterday you heard the second ranking democrat in the house, steny

hoyer telling us the democrats are going to take back the house. who should control the house, who will control the house? we're here to hash it out with emily bitner. representing the republicans daniel skarp nat toe from the national republican conditioningal committee. thanks for joining us. gallup took this poll about two months ago, unfavorable numbers of both parties. among republicans, clocked at 34 favorable, 59 unfavorable. among democrats, clocked in at 44 favorable, 50 unfavorable. i look at that and say those are not great numbers for either party. that's a ten-point gap right there. it seems like it might be an issue for republicans. >> in congressional races i don't think it is.

i think people vote on the candidates and the members of congress themselves who are running. i think that's the approval, the individual person's approval that matters. and then separating themselves from the problems in washington. the other thing that is a real issue here is the president's approval rating which is in the tank -- >> we can put that up on the screen. this week's gallup poll. >> when you look at the states and districts where these are playing out, i haven't seen one poll, including whether obama won, where he is not under water with voters. he's very unpopular. i don't think the democrats would want to send him to any of these races in the country because he'd actually hurt their candidates. >> emily, maybe you can respond. >> you can't have it both ways, can't have it be a race about the president and the race of

individuals. they're desperate to have the 2014 election bs about anything but house republicans. if you look at house republicans brand, it's worse than republicans in general. they are at historic low approval ratings because everything the american people want, they are blocking. so whether it's equal pay instead we're getting shutdowns. whether it's raising the minimum wage, they're raising the specter of impeachment. time and time again when you see two-thirds of mayor cans in support of a common sense idea, i'll show you 234 republicans who oppose it. >> it is about the president, with all due respect. i challenge you to name one district where you would want the president and nancy pelosi to go visit. the races in these districts are about having a check and balance on the president. that's what voters want. that's why many of emily's own democratic candidates are

throwing the president under the bus. they can't get away from him fast enough. >> we've seen house republicans in power now since 2010 when the tea party was this new shiny object and the american people have seen what it means to have the tea party in power. they are rejecting house republicans and their agenda. we've had three elections about president obama. it's time to have an election about how republican -- >> i don't know if we put it on the screen. that's the other thing we have here. you the republican number, the tea party is 30 to 51. do you embrace the label tea party. >> >> different candidates will run different things in different districts. the greatest thing about our candidates, they fit their districts. our party does not speak with one voice. the other part of this is this election in many ways is about

competence. even liberal democrats are not happy with the president because they don't think he's competently executed the programs they want. if you wanted obama care and you supported obama care, you cannot be happy with this administration because they have done such a bad job executing that and so many other issues. i think that's a big part of the election here. >> steve, you asked him such an interesting question about sewer gats. if you're a republican, the sur galts are people like sarah palin or ted cruz or todd akin. we're proud of the sewer gats we have on the democratic side of the aisle. they're going to try to do everything they can to make this election about -- >> the president should visit these districts. we'll pay the plane ticket. he goes to hollywood, manhattan, chicago, raises millions of dollars. >> we've been talking about immigration. if there's nothing done on this border. we've been talking about this since the 2012 election, far your party, daniel, if there's

no immigration reform this fall, that is what happened in 2012, wasn't it? >> i don't think saying a bill in the middle of the night that no one has read that's an obamacare style bill is going to help anyone. house republicans said we want to take a step by step approach to this problem. i think with the current crisis that's happening, we have to take politics out and pass something and come together and do what makes sense and border security has to be first. >> emily, last word. >> it was more than a year ago that the senate in a bipartisan way passed a comprehensive immigration bill that barack obama, george bush, the chamber, the faith community all support. they're dragging solutions for the american people so they can sue the president. they held hearings on a lawsuit against the president this week. >> about 100 days from election. thanks to emily bitner and daniel skarp nat toe, appreciate

it. waj gap and the gender gap collide in one of the week's most controversial articles. we'll see what's really there. that's next.

they are the heavy hitters of campaign fund-raising. the king makers or queen makers whose checkbooks can influence an election. the koch brothers as does sheldon add elson and george soros. who doesn't come to mind necessarily when you think of big donors are women. maybe it's a reflection of the forbes 500, fewer women in this list than men, especially at the top, only one woman in the top ten. maybe it's also how the parties and campaigns are soliciting big money. politico pointed out for all the electoral gains women have made in seeking office, the gender gap in how much money women give is much different. women aren't giving as much. top male donors have given six

times as much in this election cycle so far. those are the quick numbers. the question is why. one theory is women expect kachbd dats to spend more personal time with them talking about the issues and why they should give up their checkbooks for a campaign. they also don't seem fond of female-specific events like spa days or women's teas that campaigns sponsored. women in the top pool of earners tended to devote more time to raising children and running a household or do women donate to cancer research than politics? many women also want to talk about things like the economy and other issues. ciersten gillibrand weighed in this week to say, quote, women often appreciate a relationship, knowing where their money is going and where it is going to be used so they can feel good about their investment. she tries to engage with women on a more personal level in the hope they understand the decisions are made in washington every day and if they aren't a part of it, they may not like

the results. back here is msnbc political analyst michael steal, jess mcintosh is the communications director for emily's list, a political action committee. maris dewitt is a political adviser. meredith, i'll start with you. you are who this article is talking about. we ran through all these theories, all the ideas about why this imbalance exists. i'm curious what you think the reason is. >> i think a lot of the reasons you mentioned with absolutely valid. one thing that's missing is i think the data is pretty hard to evaluate. when i looked at the study, you look at donors that are making contributions to candidates and committees are being attributed with that gift. when a couple makes a contribution to a super pac those numbers get skewed, those numbers tend to be in six and seven-figure figures. oftentimes the default is for

the man to, quote, get credit for that contribution. i think the numbers aren't as bad. also i would say women aren't sitting out of this power game in politics. women are some of the most volunteer fund-raisers or bund hers as we call them in the country. if you look at the last re-election of president obama, they list their bundlers publicly, but you may not know the ranks. of the top 11 people that raised money for the president, five are women. >> let me ask the question about that that ciersten gillibrand was making. is there something to that when you're soliciting money from women, they want what she's talking about there? >> if you think about it in context, men have been organizing politically and figuring out how to use money for power and access since the

republic was founded. women have been doing this for the last 30, 40 years really in earnest. so it takes a little bit more to let women know that they are incredibly powerful when it comes to political persuasion. i think senator gillibrand is absolutely right. my guess is that she has more women donors than your average. i'll guess elizabeth warren does, hillary clinton in 2008 does. amy klobuchar does. when we see women in office, we'll see more women donors. >> how many donors do you have? >> we have a community of over 3 million. >> are they -- >> more than 80% are women. we are one of the oldest, most successful political organizations, funded heavily by women. the explosion in membership over

the last two years are younger and more male, which is nice to see men come around to the idea of women's leadership. it's definitely not an impossibility. we've been doing it quite well for a while. >> michael steele, i'm going to guess as chairman of the national committee you did fund-raising in your time. we always talk about the gender gap. here is the vote from 2008 and 2012. in 2008 obama won the women's vote by 50 points. i guess when you're trying to cultivate female donors, you have the gender gap. >> less of a gender gap in 2012. i was chairman at that time. we had a different spike because we had a different relationship. what we did was, to your point, we looked at the emily's list model of individual downstream donors, in other words, a small

dollar donor, getting them introduced to the idea of contributing to a political candidate or political party. what is the underlying story in all this is regardless of that 200-year lead time men have on giving, it is the women in the household who told the guy they could give in the first place. so there was always this power center in the family structure in which the women said we can do that, you can sign off on that check and let it go in many cases. in a lot of other instances, what we found is the guy's was out front, so it was a matter of peeling that back and allowing women donors to emerge more freely through the process? a lot of it was the small dollar stuff? for republicans it was some of the first steps we were talking in this area. >> that's interesting.

we've got to squeeze in a break here. i want to talk about what that advantage has make in terms of politics and policy in this country, in terms of how things are changing. a couple more theories i want to bass them around. we'll do that as soon as we come back. g beneful. [announcer]and why wouldn't he be? beneful has wholesome grains,real beef,even accents of spinach,carrots and peas. it has carbohydrates for energy and protein for those serious muscles. [guy] aarrrrr! [announcer]even accents of vitamin-rich veggies. [guy] so happy! you love it so much. yes you do! but it's good for you,too. [announcer] healthful. flavorful. beneful. from purina.

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lease this 2014 ats for around $299 a month and make this the summer of style. ♪ we're talking about the gender gap in fund-raising. two issues when you talk about fund-raising, one is women whiting checks to campaigns. there's a direct connection, but we live in this era as people who raise other -- generate other fund-raisers, bundlers. the skill set that goes into th that. are there differences in strengths that women bring. >> sure. at the risk of stereotyping, women are great multitaskers, just as competitive as men.

women are also, when they are mentored by other women, i find them to be most effective and mo more. the finance chair is responsible for building a group of people that will meet every single week, take time out of the busy lives to make phone calls and host events. when that's led by a woman, i've seen women are more motivated to raise their hand and lean in. at the end of the day, women want to win, they want to support candidates and causes that are being run effectively, funds managed strategic cli. they want to see that person in elected office be effective. >> this position of finance director, this is interesting. you're saying that overwhelmingly, a very important fund-raising job is

overwhelmingly a job done by women. ten years ago when i started working on campaigns, very often that was the only position held by a woman on a campaign. it seems to be that for either party that was the job -- i've talked to a number of them about it, most of them said they were mentored by a with woman to get into this job. i think there's a tendency to treat women like a special kind of sub species that needs to be spoken to softly and have their hair brushed. no, we've just people. if you talk to us in a way that you would talk to any political donor, you might have a good result. i think women are particularly good at understanding that other women are just like them. >> we are short of time. since you are a donor and we a

political show, in 2016 are you interested in seeing hillary clinton run for president? >> i would love to see secretary clinton run. i've helped her in the past raise money. she's an amazing person. i think women are excited about her candidacy as they are many others. i think these numbers will continue to change if she does decide. >> political fund-raising on both sides. >> here is the other side of it, too. i want to thank jess mcintosh with emily's list. an update on the apparent increase in fighting in eastern ukraine, plus israel's response to the fighting in gaza. all the details. stay with us. that's why i'm so excited about these new milk-bone brushing chews. whoa, i'm not the only one. it's a brilliant new way to take care of his teeth. clinically proven as effective as brushing.

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malaysian airlines flight. you recall mh 17 was shot down with a surface-to-air missile most likely by mistake according to u. search s. officials. personnel on the ground say the fighting seems to be increasing as the ukrainian tanks are advancing further south. officials are saying troops are getting close to retake the city of donetsk. we'll be back with more on the ukraine and the latest from gaza right after this. hey, i heard you guys can help me with frog protection? yeah, we help with fraud protection. we monitor every purchase every day and alert you if anything looks unusual. wow! you're really looking out for us. we are. and if there are unauthorized purchases on your discover card, you're never held responsible. just to be clear, you are saying "frog protection" right?

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which can occur without warning and may cause death. patients also taking aspirin and the elderly are at increased risk for stomach bleeding and ulcers. don't take celebrex if you have bleeding in the stomach or intestine, or had an asthma attack, hives, other allergies to aspirin, nsaids or sulfonamides. get help right away if you have swelling of the face or throat, or trouble breathing. tell your doctor your medical history. and find an arthritis treatment for you. visit celebrex.com and ask your doctor about celebrex. for a body in motion. new developments this hour, israel is considering a 24-hour ceasefire agreement with hamas. the fighting resumed this morning because hamas fired several rockets into their territory overnight, 25 in all since the violence started up. the local news agency says hamas confirms it fired the rockets.

the death toll is mounting with 43 soldiers and three civilians killed on the israeli side. in gaza the death toll climbed to over 1,000 yesterday. it's because palestinian health officials say they had time to pull bodies from the rubble during the 12-hour ceasefire. we'll go to nbc's richard engel in gaza. nobody covers a war zone better than him. but we now turn to the ukraine. the malaysian airlines flight 17 disaster refocused international attention on the region. nbc news is reporting that fighting around the crash site is increasing. government tanks are moving further south and people from nearby villages are reportedly evacuating. in an interview on thursday, the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, army general martin dempsey shared his fear that violent nationalism might spread even further. >> when russia has made a decision of that magnitude to change what has been the

accepted order, the sanctity of sovereign nations, my fear is actually, if i have a fear about this, it's that putin may actually light a fire that he loses control of. >> so who does the president lean on? he leans on his number two apparently, joe biden. speaking by phone friday to the ukraine's president, biden relayed the message the u.s. will continue to press sanctions for its, quote, destabilizing and irresponsible actions in ukraine. expect the kirk tour you know of uncle joe, biden is obama's go-to guy on crises. as "the new yorker" puts it, in contrast to dick cheney, biden made his remark by reenforcing the president's supremacy rather than maneuvering around it. for that the president trusts him. those who know him say biden is so effective when it comes to

forging personal connections because he treats everyone he meets with humor and charm. he has a stable of go-to lines and one of his favorite openers is, if i had hair like yours, i'd be president. you've got to start off with the assumption the other guy is not an idiot, biden says, it's really very important. if you're able to communicate to the other guy that you understand his problem and some of this diplomatic bull communicates we have no idea of your problem. another keepass saj is his exchange with vladimir putin back when putin had the title of prime minister, i said, mr. prime minister i'm looking into your eyes and i don't think you have a soul. did you really say that the reporter asked? absolutely, positively. he looked back and smiled and said, we understand one another. biden said this is who this guy is. the story is a fascinating look at who joe biden is. when you think of that uncle joe

kirk tour, it raises the question is he getting the respect he deserves? will he ever or is that one of the indignities that comes with being the veep. we have april ryan with american radio networks and evan mcmorris san tosantoro. dick cheney a controversial vice president. joe biden i think a consequential vice president, but the contrast in how they operate where cheney set up his own corner in the white house and had his own people. the biden relationship is a much different model. >> that's true. we've heard of disagreements between biden and the president. all those disagreements and all those things that happen get put into the package of the president listening to a bunch

of different ideas. it's very different than with cheney and bush, whether they had any fracture at all, scooter libby, for exam. . it was a huge deal, a huge rift in the white house which it's not like these two guys have -- see down the middle on every issue. when they don't, it doesn't become a problem for the white house. >> there's a passage in here, too, where biden and obama, they were having lunch together or something and they both sort of said to each other, biden was like, i can't believe we're becoming friends. biden says me neither. they seem to have developed a relationship that wasn't there at the beginning. >> there was a relationship there, enough for the president to bring in a team of rivals to say we've had this fracture or problem early on running for office together. you are this man that has all of this wealth of knowledge on the hill and you've been here for so long in washington. and also, your foreign policy on the hill as well. from the very beginning, this

white house has started off with joe biden as a partnership, he's been engaged for everything to include the recovery act, most recently he worked on the issue with the schools. the school study just came out. he worked on the budget. yes, the budget and vice president have lunch every week to talk over things and they talk all the time. so what we're saying is something that's genuine. it's not the partnership that the cheney-bush people had. but this is a friendship. this is a partnership. they come together with families. they come together on a host of issues. they are in conjunction in a lot of ways. >> in this article, they talked to ram emanuel, the first chief of staff for president obama. he was asked about the relationship. he said the vice president asked for one thing, that he could always comment, would never be shut down and he'd be the last guy in the room to talk to him. the president lived up to that commitment. first of all, that sounds like three things to me, not one.

a tribute to biden. michael, i'm curious because you've been a lieutenant governor, and these relationships between president and vice president, lieutenant governor and governor, what does the governor, what does the president let you do? >> that's the key thing. you're only as effective as the governor of the president allows you to be. so to the extent you're able to go out and carve out a space for yourself, dick cheney was able to do it because the president allowed him to do it. >> elder statesmen, too. >> yes. same with biden. when i was lieutenant governor, i was able to do the things i said because bob said i trust you to do these things, keeping in mind that you're doing them for the governor or the president, not doing them for yourself. that's the big difference that you've seen in the modern relationship between the vice president and the president, is

that the vice president really is not just a cheerleader for the chief executive, but also an effective arbiter on issues, policies and the like. it mix a big difference in the relationship long-term. >> how much of it, i wonder, too. there was the assumption when joe biden was added to the ticket, the assumption was this is sort of the old gray beard, he's never going to run for president on his own. he was 65 when he was elected in 2008. so he gets to just focus on being vice president. the fact that joe biden, we can talk about whether it's a path for him at all, but the fact that he clearly is interested in running in 2016, i think that surprised people. has that created tension in the white house at all? >> why is everybody -- >> you're the white house correspondent. >> can you feel the tension when you're there? >> let me say this, i told evan something off camera, i can't say it. i will say this. some of the headliners we think will be headliners for office,

when they're around one another for the camera, they're okay. when the cameras aren't there, oh, whatever. you can feel the tension as it's arising that there are possibilities that we could be rivals against one another. if you're asking the people in the white house right now, they try to laugh it off. i made a joke with someone yesterday. i said so what is the president saying, my name is barack obama, my name is bennett and i'm not in it. he has this man he considers a partner who was also there when they took down osama bin laden, he has this woman who was his woman of diplomacy who was there when he took down osama bin laden. he's got to make a big choice. >> the president was interviewed for this new yorker article. he sort of side-stepped the question of biden and hillary by saying they both have to decide whether they want to suffer the indignity of a campaign. >> tension aside, many of obama's campaign architects have

lined up behind hillary already, not to mention many of the senators and other people -- >> how has that gone over with biden, did he expect it would be different? >> i don't know exactly -- i don't have a lot of keys on the inner workings of joe biden's brain other than when he talks it sort of all comes out. he's a very open talker, right? i do think, look, if you're a guy like joe biden who has been in washington and in power for as long as he has, sort of steady climbed up, he's not in charge of foreign policy stuff because they want to give him a shot at it. he was the head of the foreign relations committee. long, long experience with this kind of thing. i think that probably there has to be -- what's the story, everybody elected wants to run for president? it's got to be tough to see people who helped you get into the white house trying to help somebody else get into the white house the next time. >> he's been loyal. >> i think it's going to be very

hard for the president ultimately to do the hillary dance and kind of look over at biden standing by himself. the president will take the smart tact and stay as far away as possible and hope surrogates and others will go to biden and say don't run. >> whoever is the nominee is where he'll jump in. >> biden strikes me as someone who values it in many respects because it is a difficult job to be the vice president to a president like barack obama in the sense that he's a bigger-than-life figure. you wait and see what crumbs you get. this vice president has been empowered in many ways and has on a number of occasions saved the president's buttard on a few issues. even that orchestration worked to the president's benefit on gay marriage, for example. i believe there's more

coordination to that than we like to give credit. >> the white house -- >> they may not have been happy about the timing and everything, but biden's instincts serve the president best in that instance. that's the thing that i think really defines the relationship is biden's instincts have worked well for this president on a number of issues. >> we have to squeeze a break in. we'll look at this from the standpoint of joe biden, a guy clearly interested in running for president on his own in 2016. is there an opening where that dream could come true for him or will he be shut out by hillary? we'll pick that up when we come back. a quad hd display

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comcast business. built for business. not a single he said is accurate. that's a bizarre statement. >> i don't know what world these guys are in. what are they talking about?

i wish they would just tell -- be a little more candid. >> with all due respect, that's a bunch of malarkey. >> a look at vice president's folksy ways of calling paul ryan a liar. clearly he'd like to be reenacting that scene against the republican nominee. the reality check is where we'll put it up. national democratic poll, who do you want your party's candidate, hillary clinton 58, the sitting two-term vice president not even in second place. 49 points behind hillary clinton. it really is unprecedented in the modern era to have a vice president who is this interested in running. >> clear the democrats have a male problem. they've got to work that out. they need to figure out how to work that male demographic. i think that poll reflects a couple of things.

one, at least among democratic voters they have their sites set on hillary. but more importantly, they have their sites set on a woman for that role for that position. that's what he's going to be up against. >> the question is does he -- i think the assumption a lot of people have, he ultimately looks at that and says, if she runs, i'm not going to run. if nothing else, that could be really humbling. >> i wouldn't say that. look when we saw barack obama versus the clinton machine. it wasn't that lopsided. we thought rudy giuliani would be president, chris christie could have had a chance by now. anything can happen between now and then. but i'm going to say this. that 58%, that is the clinton machine. that is also going to your point t female. the possibility of another first. once barack obama leaves the white house as president of the united states, the balloon will lose a lot of air. the reason why, because we have

to love to love him or love to hate him and he was a first. this nation is still on a high about rock star and the first. >> how about a rock star in delaware. >> i think also the polls are so early now, people who are watching this stuff are really engaged in politics, really paying attention to it. biden has run for president twice and didn't do real well when he ran the last two times. once we get closer to the campaign, closer to the actual discussing of this stuff, i think it's easy to see those kind of numbers change around. biden can own a lot of the obama story more than other people can. >> he might actually run against her? >> i don't know if he's going to do it. but i think he -- he definitely seems -- all interviews he's done, he seems to think he could do it. >> as a politician, you can maybe speak to this, i look at it from the standpoint of

somebody like joe biden has to factor in his image, his legacy long term. if you're the sitting vice president and you run for president and those numbers hold up and you lose 20 primaries by 40 points, isn't it a point where it kicks in and says i don't want my name attached to that. >> yes. i think you have it right, april. the bottom line is once we get past this november 2014 cycle. december 1st, the presidential sweepstakes begin. the poll numbers will be moving around and shifting. as you get into 2015 and the numbers begin to settle a little bit. we'll see biden's people assess where he is relative to hillary clinton. does that 58% peel back a little bit? i think you're right. there's a lot of the first and sort of the idea of sort of the rock star element of having a female nominee. these are sobering times for a

lot of mayor cans, the economy, war and peace questions, social issues and how i think biden assesses and does in dealing with those issues. that's why what he's doing right now in foreign policy matters. his voice in this conversation matters. people take note of that. i think a broader beyond democrat poll would be interested looking at the national poll to see where biden sits. that's what his people are waiting to see. >> the scenario oi wondered about, too, who says hillary clinton can't say to joe biden a couple years ago, you've done such a good job as vice president, stick around. >> who want to stay in that same vein -- >> maybe that's the graceful way out of it. i don't know. >> you get a plane. >> he has a nice house. >> it is a nice house. that's why we come to d.c., to see the vice president's house. coming up, a live report out

of gaza from richard engel, plus why the american geb bate on what's going on there might be different than it's been before. that's next. ...all day relief. hmm. [bell ring] "roll sound!" "action!"

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but it's good for you, too. [announcer] healthful. flavorful. beneful. from purina. just a few minutes ago israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu told reporters that hamas has violated its own ceasefire. as nbc's martin fletcher told us earlier in the show, there has been confusion this morning in that israel initially offered to extend the 12-hour ceasefire by another day. hamas responded by firing rockets into israeli territory overnight. after israel resumed a full aerial, naval and ground assault, hamas said this morning it was agreeing the a ceasefire after all. for more on where things actually stand on the ground in gaza, we go to nbc's richard engel in gaza. can you clear up exactly what's going on over there for us? >> reporter: i can tell you right now we're not hearing

heavy bombardments. today there's been some military activity in gaza, but not nearly the level we've been seeing in other days in this conflict. it appears that the sides of this conflict are trying once again to put a humanitarian pause in place. there have been several attempts over the last 24 hours. there was a brief lull in the fighting yesterday. but these humanitarian ceasefires haven't been holding. first hamas rule will reject, then israel will reject. it appears just based on what we're seeing that perhaps over the course of the day there might be another attempt to try and create a lull in the fighting. all of these are relatively small issues here. the larger issue of finding a permanent ceasefire remains illusive. i think it goes to the different strategies. the israeli plan seems to be to have multiple rolling short-term humanitarian ceasefires and to calm the situation down. have a 12-hour window, a 24-hour

window. tomorrow is eade, one of the most important holidays on the muslim calendar. let the people here in gaza have a bit of a holiday, calm the situation down. hamas, however, wants a deal to come first. they don't want to just stop fighting and then for all the 1,000 or so people who have been killed in this fighting, to have been killed for nothing. they want to stop fighting when a deal is in place, not just to have rolling four-hour, 12-hour, 24-hour pauses in the fighting. >> and richard, you're on the ground there in gaza. can you give us an idea this most recent pause, what did that mean? what did that do on the ground in gaza to have that pause in violence. what did that do to life there? >> reporter: well, there was a much longer pause yesterday during that pause which was more or less official, people went out, streamed to their destroyed

homes because about 200,000 people in gaza have been displaced by the fighting. a lot of the fighting in this war, and the three over the last several wars, a lot of fighting has been concentrated into specific neighborhoods in the south and the east. we saw thousands of refugees rushing to their homes and sometimes there was so much devastation people couldn't even find where their homes had been. entire blocks were flattened. we saw people digging through the rubble, digging for bodies, more than 100 bodies were pulled out from the debris. today because there's so much confusion, people aren't rushing to the dangerous neighborhoods. nobody trusts if these cease fires are real. they'll last for an hour, then there'll be strikes, then a lull. we're not seeing that kind of attempt to recover and salvage belongings. >> richard engel, live in gaza this morning. appreciate that. please stay safe over there.

we want to talk about how the conflict between the israelis and palestinians. it can seem implacable, no matter what happens with a little change except the date on the wall. escalating violence has shown stories of families completely devastated. palestinians borne the brunt of the fatalities, more than 150 pulled out of the rubble during yesterday's ceasefire. american audiences are beginning to see this conflict as maybe they haven't in the past, maybe a little more through palestinian eyes. gallup conducted a poll asking americans whether they thought the actions by israel and hamas were justified or unjustified. only 11% felt hamas's actions against israel are justified. 70% say they're unjustified. only 42% felt israel's actions in return were justified, barely more than the 39% who said

unjustified. israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu spoke out in defense of his country's actions saying hamas wants to pile up as many civilian dead as they k. they use telegenicly dead palestinians for their cause. in the united states sympathy is tilted more toward the israeli side in this long-standing conflict. our americans may be looking at the fighting in a somewhat different way. we have julia abasha, "just vision," an advocacy group for palestinians and israelis working together. you have been trying to share the stories, the sensitivities of both sides in this longstanding conflict. from that standpoint, i'm curious to ask you the question as you look at how this is presented in the united states right now, if you feel maybe more than in the past, a fuller picture is getting out there.

>> for us this is a very painful time because our work has actually focused on trying to bring the stories of leaders focusing on non-violence to end the occupation and end the conflict and build a future of freedom, security, peace and dignity for both societies. unfortunately we're seeing a repetition that only when violence breaks out is the media paying attention. that's the underlying dynamic here. i think whether israel is losing the media war or palestinians are winning the media war, the zero-sum game, it's part of the challenge we all face in trying to find a movement towards an end to the occupation, an end to the siege in gaza. i think the question that we want to be asking is what's the context in which this is taking place? once we remove ourselves a little bit from the day today tragic images coming out of gaza, we can begin to talk about

what needs to happen. if you were a palestinian born in gaza, you need to go to the israeli authorities to be registered as a palestinian. the 1,000 palestinians that were killed, their families will have to go back to the israeli authorities that killed their children to actually get death certificates. this is the reality of gaza under continued occupation. the occupation has not ended. i think this context is a lot of what is still missing, although there's no question that we have seen an increase in palestinian voices, i think there's been a growth in independent media coming from the ground, different groups, a hebrew language website, palestinians and israelis using social media to both be direct eyewitnesss but hold mainstream media accountable to what's happening. there's been shifts. i would like to point out that the gallup poll that came out,

it shows very clearly that unfortunately the belief, the point of view of americans has not actually shifted in the last 12 years. the mixed reaction to israeli attacks is very similar to what we've seen in 2002. so 12 years ago and the poll explains that very clearly, too. >> one thing i'm curious about is we hear and we've heard a lot through the years and not certainly justifiably so, the horror of living with the ever day fear for israelis of rocket attacks. it's an atrocity and the actual death that's come from that is terrible and obviously psychologically what that can do to a person, to a family, to a community. i wonder, you're talking about the reality of what the blockade of gaza has done for every day gazans. is that something you think people are more aware of now

than they were before? >> i think they're more aware of the death that is happening right now. i don't think they're aware of the context. i think there's still a lot of palestinians who do not understand -- sorry -- a lot of americans who do not understand that deoccupation forces still control the population registry of gaza, still control the borders, still control the air, still control the territorial waters, fishermen do not have the ability like fishermen around the world to actually go out to 200 miles to fish. palestinian fishermen are limited to six nautical miles to do all of their fishing. i do think some of that is missing from the picture. there's no question that the reality that israeli civilians are living today under rocket fire, it's horrible. and if i was living there with my daughter, i would be very scared.

but i think the larger picture that will allow for israeli civilians and palestinian civilians to ultimately live in freedom, dignity and security for both societies will pass through a larger understanding of the context that palestinians have been living under occupation for decades. >> my thanks to julia bacha. still ahead, the only u.s. senator that's ever worked at "saturday night live." what are al franken's chances of working in washington for a second term? they might be dicier than you think. we'll explain next. textures, only chex mix has twenty bags of interesting. pick your mix. [ cat meows ] ♪ ♪ da-da-da-da-da, bum-da, bum-da ♪ ♪ bum-da, bum-da ♪ the animals went in two by two ♪ ♪ the sheep and the frog and the kangaroo ♪

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new business owner, it would be one thing i've learned is my philosophy is real simple american express open forum is an on-line community, that helps our members connect and share ideas to make smart business decisions. if you mess up, fess up. be your partners best partner. we built it for our members, but it's open for everyone. there's not one way to do something. no details too small. american express open forum. this is what membership is. this is what membership does. >> my thanks to julia bacha. you've heard plenty about how democratic senators are in trouble this election year. one race you may not have been paying attention to and maybe you should be is the minnesota senate race. democrat al franken is seeking re-election, the seat he won by only 312 votes after a highly

contested and very long recount in 2008 and 2009. he will likely face republican mike mcmadden. mcfadden is heavily favored in next month's republican primary. we think of minnesota as a blue state but republicans came close to winning in the 2000 and 2004 elections. they've lerkted norm coleman in 2002 and tim have lenity as governor twice. mcfadden is not from the bachmann wing of the republican party, supports immigration reform with a path to citizenship and opposed last year's government shutdown. he's casting himself as a right-center amy klobuchar, a reference to minnesota's other democratic senator. the kind of republican that has been able to win in minnesota before. president obama isn't that popular with "minneapolis star tribune" found a 40% of

minnesotans view him favorably. franken remain it is favorite in this race, but how seriously is america's favorite late night comedy writer. joining me is rachel stas en berger, political reporter for the star tribune. we all remember al franken the comedian, "saturday night live," all that. he got elected in 2009. for a lot of people nationally he kind of disappeared then. he stopped doing any interviews with national media, print reporters, television all that. he's been very quiet, very diligent. i think he's worked the minnesota press diligently. five years later, has that strategy worked in minnesota? >> well, look. part of what franken struggled with the first time he was running is the old joke is, is he serious, right?

he spent the last five years trying to prove he was serious, about minnesota issues. in a rather aggressive ad campaign he's been talking about bipartisan work, not the liberal funny man, but things that everyone would agree with. in minnesota, to some extent he did disappear, hasn't been as wild and crazy to use a "saturday night live" phrase. but he's been trying to prove that he really does deserve to be senator. >> do people -- is your sense in minnesota that their perception of al franken has changed in five years because of that strategy? do they think of him as serious lawmaker, bipartisan, those sorts of words he wants people to be identifying him with? >> he hasn't changed his haters. one of the things we're seeing in this campaign compared to the previous campaign, the 2008 campaign that lasted well into 2009 with court cases and recounts is the republicans are taking him very seriously. they are not forgetting that he

won by only 312 votes. they're being very aggressive. to some extent, some say the reason he won his first term is because the republicans thought basically he was not -- did not deserve to be senator. he's trying to prove that he deserves to be senator. the republicans are saying, look, we are going to treat him just as aggressively, just as seriously as any other democrat who won. >> so what's -- we put the polling average up there. right now it's a decent lead. some of those polls are a little dated. the talk nationally is republicans have sort of gotten their act together in terms of coalescing behind mcmadden sooner than maybe people expected. it's a blue state but voted republican certainly plenty of times in the recent past. what do you think is franken's level of vulnerability this fall seeking a second term? >> i don't think you can take this race for granted. in fact, that's part of democrats' problem here, this

sense of complacency. you mentioned the polls. he's been ahead in all the polls. he is fund-raising very aggressively. democrats say, hey, it's a midterm election, we'll do fine, we're blue, they'll have serious problems. i do think you have to treat him as somewhat vulnerable. there are other states which you mentioned which were far more competitive than this one is so far. but if this race doesn't tighten up, most of us would be rather surprised. it has been a competitive state in some of these state-wide elections, not on presidential elections, but statewide recently. not only did franken face a recount, governor mark dayton, a democrat also running for re-election also faced a recount. it has been a split state statewide for a lot of these races, that may tighten up. we're starting to see that interest nationally and locally on the senate race. >> we were talking about this on the show yesterday about that whole question of republicans talking up. they say it's going to be a wave

election nationally, no evidence of the wave yet. this is one of the states, if that republican wave they've been promising, if that emerges, this is one of the states where you'll see it. thanks to rachel stassen-berger. coming up, will comments made by a key architect of the law affect what happens to those lawsuits next. to get through the rest of these dishes! i want more suds! dawn? you won't last. [ female announcer ] a drop of dawn has active suds that stay stronger longer, so you can clean 2x more greasy dishes. to get the job done. you're full of suds after all. now drop and give me twenty spaghetti bowls! [ female announcer ] dawn does more. [ sponge ] so it's not a chore. [ female announcer ] dawn does more. hey there, i just got my bill, and i see that it includes my fico® credit score. yup, you get it free each month to help you avoid surprises with your credit. good. i hate surprises. surprise!

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everything she's been waiting for. carefully crafted with real seafood, real veggies, and never any by-products or fillers. wow! being a cat just got more enjoyabowl. fancy feast broths. wow served daily. on tuesday, as you may recall, two federal appeals courts issued conflicting rulings on the affordable care act. the u.s. court of appeals in d.c. said the federal government cannot continue to pay tax subsidies to states that haven't set up their own exchanges. tax credits that help millions of americans with the cost of buying health insurance. just a few hours after that, the fourth circuit in virginia said denying the states those subsidies wouldn't make sense. they agree that the wording of the law was, quote, ambiguous and subject to multiple interpretations, but the justices decided the tax credits

should proceed anyway. that ambiguous wording is precisely how conservative opponents of the affordable care act hope to defeat it. they contend the part of the law that reads "exchange established by the state. that is why so many people found it significant this week when one of the architects of the law was caught on video issuing this statement. >> what's important to remember politically about this is if you're a state and you don't set up an exchange, that means your citizens don't get their tax credits. your citizens still pay the taxes that support this bill. you're essentially saying you're going to pay the taxes to help all the other states in the country. i hope the states will realize there are billions of dollars at

stake in seth up the exchanges. once again, the politics can get ugly around this. >> that was m.i.t. professor jonathan gruber in a speech from jan our 2012. "the new york times" once dubbed him mr. mandate. he said citizens of only some states would have to pay all the taxes to support implementation, the very basis of the current lawsuits. the video was posted to youtube 2 1/2 years ago by the group that hosted the speech. it was picked up this week by a conservative think tank. on friday gruber said he had misspoken. quote, i made a mistake in some 2012 speeches in describing the tax credits, according to an e-mail he sent to "the new york times." it's clear from all my writings and modeling that tax credits are assumed to be available in all states. this is the only sensible reading of the affordable care act and is crop rated by every person who helped to california the law. is this a mere embarrassment for the administration that will soon blow over or will it likely

have an impact on the challenges that conservative challengers hope to dismantle the law. jonathan cohen spoke with jonathan gruber on the phone about the 2-year-old quote. jonathan, let's just start on that point because in the immediate wake of the ruling this week about the state exchanges, the counter arguments that was made was, hey, look, nobody talked about this issue of a state opting out and, therefores, you can't pay federal subsidies to that state. then it turns out that the architect of the law in massachusetts had talked in those terms. you've spoken to him. are you satisfied that this was just him misspeak? >> look, i don't know what john gruber was thinking at the time. i asked john gruber and john gruber said john gruber doesn't know what john gruber was thinking at the time. he obviously said it.

he said it more than once. one possibility is for some period of time he was under that impression. it's hard to explain. i don't know the answer. i don't know what he was thinking. i do believe he is being honestd he makes the point that appropriately at the time he was doing projections of the impact of obama care. how many people would get coverage. this was a time when several states made clear they were not going to build these exchanges and his projections assumed that everybody would be getting the tax credits. it doesn't make a lot of sense. he doesn't know why he said that. but i do take him at his word that he said that this is what he thinks. >> so, the thing that is at the root of all this, everybody was saying when this law was written and if we can go back to 2010 and all the republicans saying it is 2,800 pages and they had the health care summit at the white house and bringing all these thick books with them and somewhere in the thousands of pages there was, evidently, a mistake was made that created the possibility for a court to look at this and say, hey, if

you're a state and you don't set up your own exchange, therefore these federal subsidies can't come into this state. do we have a sense how that mistake was made? >> nobody does. i think the easiest, simplest explanation is that mistakes do get made when writing legislation. it happens, it happens all the time. usually what happens is when the bill is passed they do a series of technical corrections. when you're writing a bill the people, the members of congress say we want to do x and be translated into legal language. there's an office that does that and there is going to be mistakes made. something is going to get mistranslated and typically you go back afterwards and fix things. the environment is so polarized that there was never really a chance to do those technical corrections. i think this was just a mistake, although, again, i think it's important to realize that if you read in the context of the law, you read that passage properly

and read what people said at the time, i don't think there is ambiguity of what the intent was. it is clear the people who were in the room who crafted the law and voted for the law and the people whose opinion counts wanted everybody to get tax assistance to get these tax credits to help them buy insurance no matter what decision their state officials made. >> yeah, no, i agree with you there. again, just based on what we heard for three years, really from everybody. i had not heard republican opponents of the law talking about this being an issue until this week. that's why that gruber thing threw me so much. we have two conflicting rulings this week. where does that mean the law stands right now and what is next. does this mean the supreme court will have to weigh in on this. where does the law stand right now with these two conflicting rulings? >> the rulings were each by the way the circuit courts work you have a whole bunch of judges. when you have a hearing three

judges are picked up to hear the case and then you are allowed to appeal to the entire court. the administration has appealed the ruling that went against it to the full, the full circuit court. most legal experts seem to think the circuit court will reverse the decision. it's quite possible, it will take some time, quite possible a year from now we'll have a situation where there are two rulings at the circuit court level, both basically upholding the law and rejecting this lawsuit. if that's the case, the supreme court may or may not take the case. we don't know. one of the things we'll have to wait and see. >> all right, we thought that court drama ended two years ago, maybe not. once again, it's back in the court. appreciate the time this morning. we'll be right back. land. uh-huh there's good more... honey, look at all these smart rewards points verizon just gave me. ooh, you got a buddy. i'm like a statue. i just signed up and, boom, all these points. ...and there's not-so-good more. you're a big guy... oh no.

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all right. this is the end of our up in washington, d.c. weekend. it was a great weekend. thank our special d.c. guests that joined us. chuck todd, april ryan, michael steele, really appreciate them

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start a team. join a team. walk to end alzheimer's. visit alz.org/walk today. this morning, my question. is there hope for a cease-fire in gaza? plus, the consequences of aggressive policing. and all the things that magical black fathers can't fix. but, first, the growing outbreak killing hundreds across the continent. good morning, i'm melissa harris-perry. this morning there are what appear to be the first reports of an american infected with ebola stemming from theur