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feg son, missouri. ferguson, missouri. good morning. i'm melissa harris-perry. right now there is kwai net ferguson, missouri, the morning after standoff between police and defensemen monstrators outr the shooting death of michael brown reignited tensions in this community overnight. last night starting around midnight a peaceful protest of more than 100 people escalated into a clash with police. the demonstration gave way to unrest as heavily armed police fired tier gas to disperse a crowd. a small group of people took advantage of the chaos to loot nearby businesses but were blocked by members of the community who stepped in to stand guard and protect the stores. the renewed unrest comes following a day of calm after the missouri highway patrol, undered leadership of captain ron johnson, took over security

for the demonstrations from the town's local authorities. but anger in the community flared again after the police chief thomas jackson during a news conference identifying officer darren wilson as michael brown's killer released this convenience store surveillance footage showing a man police suspected to be brown stealing a box of cigars and assaulting a clerk. community members and reporters were stunned again when only hours later chief jackson held another news conference where he said the incident shown in the video had nothing to do with the reason officer wilson initially stopped brown on the street. >> his initial contact was not related to the robbery. >> what are you saying, chief? did he know that he was a suspect in the case or did he not know? >> no, he didn't. he was walking -- >> it had nothing to do with the stop? >> it had nothing to do with the stop -- >> then why release the video? >> at this point why did he stop

michael brown? >> because they were walking down the middle of the street blocking traffic. >> i want to go now live to our reporter for the new yorker magazine. nice to see you this morning, julani. >> hi, melissa. >> i know you were up quite late last night. you were present at the demonstrations. what did you see? >> so the best way of describing this is that the mood here has really fluctuated. so wednesday night it was intense, kind of extreme, foreboding quality to the environment where you knew there was going to be a confrontation between the police -- that's the night they had the military style vehicles out here. thursday night the environment was kind of much more staid and relaxed. almost celebratory climate that people were saying the officer's name was going to be released

and so on. and then last night was different because there were people who were upset once again about the release of the video. very many people thought the person who was in the video might not have actually been michael brown. those who did think it was mr. brown were concerned that they were trying to taint his name in order to justify what they still believed to be excessive use of police force. and then underlying all of this, one thing i have to say which has been a theme, an extreme degree of concern among the protesters, among the residents of ferguson, among the people in surrounding areas that i spoke to, an extreme degree of concern that rioting and looting would really stain the efforts to commemorate mr. brown's life and prevent it from happening again. >> i want to ask you a bit more about exactly that. for me some of the most intense images that i saw like>> al:

night and this morning are those of largely young men standing in the doors of local shops blocking those who seem to be taking advantage of the protestses thprotests that are motivated by police killing an unarmed teenager during the day. if what we're seeing is a sustained mobilization, during the day are we seeing mass meetings? have you been experiencing any kind of strategic training for the young people who are engaging or even for other citizens engaging in these pr protests so that come evening when the protests tend to take to the streets there is some sense of sort of how we're going to manage this? >> some of that has happened. but i was talk iing with a youn woman who is a ferguson native who is leaving -- actually she had moved away and then stopped here on her way to law school. studying at harvard law school

in the fall and it just happened to coincide with everything happening here. i talked with her. she said the organizing efforts here have not been centrally coordinated. there are people trying to do this. to give people ideas, tactics they can use. they do have some on the spot workshops about organizing, if you will, out by the quick trip gas station that was burned down. there are people talking about the importance of remaining calm, nonviolence and so on. the rapper nellie is from here. he's been on the radio consistently urging people to remain calm about this, but at the same time there is a feel maybe those things are not as centrally organized as perhaps they could be. >> stay with us, jelani. i don't want you to go away. i do want to bring in philip atiba goff, from ucla, and president of the center for policing he cequity in los ange.

stay with us, jelani. i asked that question specifically to jelani about the extent to which protesters have training in part because these encounters with police can can be extraordinarily dangerous for civilians. now let me turn the question around and ask you, you know something at least about the st. louis county police. tell us what you know about the county police and whether or not there is reason for civilians to be concerned about their interactions with the police officers they will be encountering in these events. >> well, the first thing i want to say when they're having interactions with law enforce in the ferguson protest area in particular, they're not just dealing with st. louis county police department, they're not just dealing with ferguson police department . they're dealing with law enforcement from all over the st. louis county region. pretty much everybody except for st. louis metro pd officers. it all seems like it's the same law enforcement, they could have pretty different kinds of trainings walk iing into an officer on one corner versus another corner.

>> stop, give me a local policing one -on-one about what that means, so when you say st. louis county, if i'm not from missouri, what does that mean and what kinds of communities are deploying officers in this moment? >> so when there's a critical incident or when there's a large scale protest in a small area, they usually won't have the size of a police force able to staff that. to keep everybody safe. so it's normal for them to reach out to one of the local neighboring police departments or several of them to make sure there's enough officers. what that means is everybody around the ring of st. louis metro, the city itself, that means slouz county, the smaller places that are ten police officers, five police officers, 20 officers, many of them are being asked to come in and put in overtime helping out in ferguson. so you don't know necessarily unless you look very closely on that badge or shoulder patch where the officer is from when you're encountering them nor what kind of training they've had before they show up.

>> speaking of training, let me -- i want to listen one more time to what we heard at the very end before i turned to jelani cobb, in that presser where kevin jackson says, oh, he wasn't stopped because of being a suspect. i want to listen to that one more time. all right, we -- >> this is clearly my community and my home and, therefore, it means a lot to me personally that we break this psycycle of violence, ease the tension, and build trust showing the utmost respect for every interaction with every citizen. >> all right, i'm sorry. that was captain johnson. that's not the sound bite i wanted to hear. he's taken over and doing quite a lovely job. that in contrast to the moment where they have released the images of the potential michael brown and we heard from jelani cobb that was part of reigniting this.

is the ferguson police department the most inept local police department in the country, or is this par for the course? >> you have to know that's a loaded question for someone who deals with law enforcement all the time. >> this is stunning, right? >> it is absolutely stunning. i have to say there are many -- as you heard captain johnson came on afterwards and was troubled by the release of the michael brown footage. there are owes in law enforcement that were troubled by it especially because, as we just heard, the officer who ended up shooting and killing michael brown didn't have that information in his head as the reason for the stop. right? and it is the case that sometimes smaller departments haven't dealt with these larger scale issues and are not connected to agencies and training that prepares them for something like that. >> so, jelani, let me come back to you on this because, as much as i absolutely appreciate the idea that potentially smaller departments aren't always coping with, you know, something that

feels big, on the other hand part of what we have consistently seen is an inability to even use active voice in conversations about what the police have, in fact, actively done here. so we keep hearing a shooting occurred, an officer was involved, rather than mr. wilson shot mr. brown and now mr. brown is dead. that kind of very clear language. what do you think is at the core of that? is that about, jelani, trying to just push off responsibility, do you think, or do you think there's generally been an experience of a lack of being held accountable? >> i have to tell you, when i talked with people about the way that policing is handled here, you know, the thing that i've gotten back from people is it's not simply ferguson but it is a problem with the municipalities in st. louis county and they say this is something that cuts across very many of them. now in ferguson specifically it's hard to think other than these are people who do not have a great degree of accountability

or are not accustomed to accountability and that goes from everything how they've addressed the media in an antagonistic way to address the way people have interacted with the community. certainly it looks like -- i can't say what's going on inside the inner workings of the department, but it looks like they've circled the wagons around the police officer and people are having serious questions about whether or not this department is even capable of investigating this incident objectively and seeing whether or not there was a legitimate excessive use of force in the circumstances that led to michael brown's death. >> jelani cobb in ferguson, missouri, thank you so much. there is much more to come this morning in this story out of ferguson, missouri. >> i should be celebrating. we all should be celebrating my son's graduation and going on to college, but we're planning a

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you have parallel processes going on here, a local one and the department of justice. those need to be accurate. they need to be clear. they need to be thorough. and before conclusions are reached they need to be complete. the focal point here remains to figure out how and why michael brown was killed and to get justice as appropriate in that situation. >> missouri governor jay nixon speaking in ferguson. still with me is phillip atiba goff, center for policing equity

in los angeles, and joining me is he seema iyer, a former prosecutor at the bronx d.a.'s office, and marquez claxton, director of the black law enforcement alliance and retired nypd detective who served for 20 years. so i want to play one more time -- i want to listen to captain johnson who has come in, who has taken over and who before the clashes last night felt like, okay, this may be the solution. and then i have a question for you, mark. >> i grew up here and this is my community and my home. therefore, it means a lot to me personally that we break this cycle of violence, diffuse the tension, show respect with every interaction with every citizen. >> i am so torn because i watch captain johnson and on the one hand i think he gets it, he gets the optics, he gets the way that you talk to people. he is from the community. and then there's this part of me

that grew up in the '80s and then was a teen in the '90s and hears black cop, black cop singing in the back of my head about the ways in which african-american bodies and face and terminology gets deployed by police departments to simply kind of quell the violence and not bring justice. how do i know whether or not we ought to be following captain johnson? what are the signals whether or not this is authentically different? >> let me say first off, the same suspicions, the same concerns you have, i have, also, as a retired police officer. so i've dealt and interacted with other police officers in that same manner because that was based on my life experience. i think the significance of what captain johnson was able to do initially -- we have to let everyone's work speak for themselves. we have to observe and be clear and honest about the work that he has done and i think the first couple days at least and i think even last night, there will be people at every event

that will not be a reflection of the work captain johnson is doing and has done and we have to judge him based on his actions and thus far it seems to be overwhelmingly positive and his outreach cannot be denied. i think the reaction from people to him tells us a lot about who he is and what he brings to the table. what's interesting is where was he before? >> that question feels to me so key. part of what i also want to know, who brought him? philip, i asked you earlier, is this the most inept department. who noticed how badly this was going and said we need captain johnson in he? >> what i understand is at the press conference the governor said this is the person who is going to be taking over. now that's in consultation with many in local law enforcement around there, but it's the governor who made that decision. >> but as much as he's taking over, i want to be clear, he's

taking over the question of the control of demonstrators and protests but the key issue for me, seema, and what reignited the protests was the sense about the investigation and whether or not there are going to be charges brought against this officer whose name we have only just recently had an opportunity to learn. >> which is shocking. nowhere else, and retired detective, be you can tell us the same thing. if this happened in new york we get the name of the officer from the jump. that doesn't happen. but my other question is, and it goes back to what you were saying about captain johnson, black cop, black cop, is he becoming the face that will quell the violence and the turmoil or is he actually the appropriate department? that is my question, dr. phil. you would know. he's highway. >> that's right. >> so my question is, is he the appropriate department that would respond to this looting, violence, riots? >> you just did a thing there at the end. i was with you and then you said

the looting, violence, riots, and i think this is part for me of the angst of what we think is occurring. i have to be completely honest, i have not, myself, been on the ground in ferguson and all of us sitting in the relative comfort of studios need to acknowledge that. but what i see, at least what i think i see, is the perfect pet wa perpetuation of saying this is not acceptable and moving it to violent action is at least partly about controlling the police not about controlling the crowds. >> right. so one of the cornerstones of policing in a democratic society is the police are transparent, are accountable to the public. and when the police are not accountable to the public, the public responds. and in this case, the public seems to have serious questions about the legitimacy and their

trust and kch dense in the ferguson police and the county police, probably police in a much larger scope to handle the investigation appropriately, to release information transparentally. some of what we saw last night, we thought things were heading on the right track. now we've had this seeming like bait and switch where we had a video released and something that looks like a smearing of a young man who was murdered's name. we don't trust again. it may be quick to come to the surface because of long histories of failures to trust the police because of poe llice actions. >> i guess it seems to me there are multiple theories about what police have about and we so a liberal attempt to reassert what policing about is control. >> you bring up an incredibly important point with regards to trust in the community. there are really two things going on on the ground both from everything i'm seeing on

television and everything i'm hearing from people there. there's one with which is a community that is outrage d, that's hurt, that has also felt they've been occupied for some time. and then there are people who are intent to do ill, that are intent to take advantage of this. to do violence, and grab stuff from stores when they can. now there's some overlap. some of the outrage and hurt is leading to protests in the form of stealing and in the form of violence. but how do we deal with public safety at the same time we have to deal with the crisis of mistrust and because they're happening in the same space, it's been really difficult, i think, for law enforcement on the ground to figure out you attack violence by building trust at the same time. >> also, what's the emergency, right? so if there is violence or the allegation of it or unrest in the community, what is most important at that moment in time and that is safety. safety is going to trump -- >> when you say the word violence, looting is one thing. that's a property crime.

but as far as i know, the only act that has led to the death of an individual over the course of the past week in ferguson was a police officer -- i mean, i may be wrong and i am prepared to be fact checked in the commercial, but i worry when we say stealing liquor is violent -- >> absolutely. >> be and we don't keep saying, no, the thing that is violent is shooting at our own. grenade launchers and assault launchers all for free. how and why your police are looking more and more like the neighborhood military. >> we're used to these excuses. every time there's an incident with a young, black man losing his life there's always an excuse why he was on drugs or he was a suspect or -- we're never taken into custody, questioned in the proper manner. starts a fight fight back fast with tums. relief that neutralizes acid on contact... ...and goes to work in seconds. ♪ tum, tum tum tum tums! try great tasting tums chewy delights.

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it hard to tell you were watching a protest in a small midwestern suburb not coverage in the middle east. the local police responded to mostly unarmed protesters like soldiers ready for battle against an enemy combatant. marine issued camouflage riding through the streets of the town pointing high caliber assault rifles and throwing tear gas at scitizens. these images of the small army deployed in ferguson exposed a larger shift of the militarization of american police forces occurring for more than a decade. in response to the war on drugs the department of defense transferred 4dz.3 billion in military equipment to local and state police through a policy known as the 1033 program. after 9/11 the department of homeland security made additional available through federal funds for terrorism prevention. nearly every local department in

the country has taken advantage of the pentagon's program. it's unclear how much if any of the equipment used by police this week in ferguson came from justice department grants. grant money from the department of homeland security paid for the armored truck on patrol in ferguson and federal dollars bought most of the body ar are more worn by officers responding to the protests. when we come back i want to ask my pam when police on suburban streets dress in camouflage is it because they're trying to blend in or stand out. otection. we monitor every purchase every day and alert you if anything looks unusual. wow! you're really looking out for us. we are. and if there are unauthorized purchases on your discover card, you're never held responsible. just to be clear, you are saying "frog protection" right? yeah, fraud protection. frog protection. fraud protection. frog. fraud. fro-g. frau-d. i think we're on the same page. we're totally on the same page. at discover, we treat you like you'd treat you. fraud protection. get it at discover.com

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ferguson, missouri. the last time i saw tanks in an american city was after hurricane katrina. the tanks rolled in and it took the general to come in and telling people to lower their weapons away from civilians they were meant to be there protecting. is the problem the resources, the bearcats, or is the problem who is deploying them and when? >> so one of the challenges of this deployment program, the 1033 program, we have had this -- so the program has been going on for quite some time. passed in the 1990s. the height of our war on crime, the beginning of the war on drugs, the belief that this kind of equipment could help fight a drug war. it was really intended to help fuel police attacking drugs in urban neighborhoods. the deployment, though, the release of this piece of equipment has been slow over time. it has steadily picked up in the

last ten years and so now what we see, though, a quite different tactic being used post-9/11 believed they could be a victim of terrorism, they might some time, maybe, need this kind of equipment that was available. the ends justified the means. if it was available, it could be purchased through grant money. they got the equipment. they weren't necessarily trained to use it. they weren't trained to use it in the tactical ways we might anticipate and these events don't happen very often. there are serious questions raised whether it is necessary or if there's other ways to h d handle a protest situation. we handle protest situations prior to this equipment being deployed. >> and i hear you on the possibility of terrorism. i heard the former police officer from boston saying, hey, when the boston bombing happened, we were happy to have these military grade resources. but really nobody thought this was a potential terrorism attack that was about to occur on the night they first put on the body

armor and deployed these resources. i keep wondering, i'm wondering if that feeling of being an encamped people who are at war with your police is, in fact, accurate and so maybe the good thing about this is now we can see it. that's what the police think these people in their community are, not people to be served and protected but to be at war with. >> us against them. >> yes, exactly. >> the mentality is us against them. once you cultivate that thinking, what law enforcement has done over the past 20 years if you look at it, it has evolved. it has changed, gone away from a law enforcement model that was service based, community policing into a show of force, use of force model. and it incorporated at that time with this war on drugs. there's been a shift over 20 years of going in this direction, the more militarized, if you will, police departments

across the nation, across the region, and that's what's happening now. it is us against them. it is a display you're there and we're here. it is an actual, fiphysical, touchable, tasteable sense that the communities have it to face throughout this country not just in ferguson. >> i just want to push back a little bit on that. not because it can't be on display and not that's how communities are feeling and how some law enforcement are thinking about it. you know better than i. but just to say i think it becomes more visible when it's tanks and camouflage but this is something that's been around, and i don't know that it's getting worse over time but it's certainly getting more visible. >> it was written about this in "black power." the black panther used as a basis for understanding what was different about the experience of racism in the west and in the urban north as compared to the jim crow south. the jim crow south had the legislative apparatus, the urban

north and the west had this militarized police apparatus that provided the same experience of segregation and that experience of you are not welcome here. >> it's a way to regulate what needs to be done here because there are times when some of this equipment has a practical use and provides a certain amount of safety not only for police officers but the civilian population as well. without increased regulation, without -- listen, there ought to be a reporting requirement, a monthly reporting requirement, i don't know, the department of justice, the department of defense, the department of whoever. there ought to be an extensive application process. there ought to be considering per kcapita crime stats because not every place needs an armored tank. >> but there was no foundation for the deployment. that is my issue here is that there was no reasonable basis to bring out military equipment. >> seema, boys and their toys.

if you give it to them, they're going to use it. that's what we're realizing now. it's boys and their toys. >> one thing you bring up that's really inter interesting, i interviewed a detective who went through the academy and he's saying something similar to what you're saying. so of law enforcement members now are not past members of the community. for instance why is captain johnson doing so well? this is my town. it's my community. my people. i want to serve. again, back to what you were saying, that mentality of officers maybe 20 years ago had that serve and protect mindset. >> i want -- i guess i want to be careful there was no golden age of police in black communities. there's no moment but that part of what the military apparatus does is help us see what had been an experimental process. the day after michael brown was killed in ferguson there was another encounter between police. it happened the very next day.

i bet it's a story you don't know yet. i'm going to tell you when we come back. >> if there was a suspicion of a robbery, they would have had some information of what the guy looked like, what was going on with him, and just to stop him randomly, all the witnesses say he stopped him randomly. he wasn't trying to arrest him when he was pulling him back and forth in the car. that's not the way you stop and interrogate somebody. not in my lifetime. ♪ you know, i've been thinking about us ♪ ♪ and, uh, i just can't fight it anymore ♪ ♪ it's bundle time ♪ bundle ♪ mm, feel those savings, baby and that's how a home and auto bundle is made. better he learns it here than on the streets. the miracle of bundling -- now, that's progressive. a body at rest tends to stay at rest...cs... while a body in motion tends to stay in motion. staying active can actually ease arthritis symptoms.

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so factors like diet can negatively impact good bacteria? even if you're healthy and active. phillips digestive health support is a duo-probiotic that helps supplement good bacteria found in two parts of your digestive tract. i'm doubly impressed! phillips' digestive health. a daily probiotic. the day after the shooting of michael brown in ferguson, missouri, there was another encounter twoen police and young after rican americans in the st only this showed how different it can be. this is a story of what happens when officer james and his partner stopped their patrol car coming across a group of young people. no commands were barked, no shots were fired. instead, they danced. in had this video shot by a neighbor the officer performs what he calls the octopus. and then after a counter from one of the kid, a backspin on

the cement. now why embarrass himself like that? well, afterwards officer krebs boiled it down in an interview with nbc affiliate. >> when i went through the academy and when i first got hired on i told them how i wanted to interact with the community and start building rapport with the citizens. i feel if we build rapport they're more likely to call us when they need us. >> contrast that approach with what witnesseses dorian johnson told msnbc about ferguson police officer darren wilson's interaction with brown while he was in the street before shooting him to death. contrast it with what we saw later when a militarized presence used tear gas and rubber bullets to repel protesters, at least until ron johnson was put in charge on thursday. as officer krebs and captain johnson show, community policing isn't impossible and you can know how to do it and do it right if you don't dress for

war. joining me now from ferguson, missouri, marva robinson, a licensed psychologist and president of the association of black psychologists. very nice to have you this morning. >> thank you. so you were part of a group that came out immediately after the death of mr. brown and set up some counseling opportunities for people in the community experiencing a kind of ptsd? tell me about that. >> we felt it was very important we showed the community we were here. we understand the psychological traumas that they may have been experiencing, so we simply walk the streets up and down the apartment complex engaging the youth, the parents, grandparents, anyone that was willing to talk to us to let them know we are here and ready to help. >> what are parents and grandparents and young people telling you about their experience over the course of the past week in terms of the militarization of the police

presence there in ferguson? >> our children are hurt. they are afraid. they're very sad. a lot of them no longer trust law enforcement, which is unfortunate. some children have not been able to sleep. parents are afraid their child may be next. so it's been very frightening. they no longer see law enforcement as a group that's here to protect and serve but someone to cage them in, someone that is pointing guns at them, and someone who they can't trust. >> when you say language like this, they're sad, they're hurt, they're afraid, i feel we almost never use that language when we talk about particularly young black people living in cities. what would happen if we started thinking of them as people who have experiences of trauma and sadness? >> i think that's a very good point. what research has shown we tend to dehumanize african-american

communities, especially african-american men. and so it's important that when i'm engaging with residents, they know i see them as humans first, that i know they have wounds and scars just like everyone else. that's the message that has to be publicized the most, these are children. these are adolescents. these are innocent babies that are caught this the middle of this and they are experiencing some of the symptoms and traumas and it's happening every day, every night. >> so we've talked a little bit with about those problems associated with the police. there's one piece of the story i've heard reported i want to confirm it a bit with you. is it true the body of mr. brown was, in fact, publicly visible for hours after his shooting death and that many in the community saw it? >> yes, i've engaged a number of residents that actually, literally saw his body lying in

the street. some say it was over four hours. and then to see him, by some reports, shoved in the back of an suv with no care, with no caution, no concern, for the fact this was someone's child and someone's grandchild. to see his blood on the streets, the way his body was positioned, these are the images our children and parents see every night and that have kept them from being able to sleep at night. >> one final question on that. am i overstepping when i say if there's a body that is left available for public view and there is a kind of militarized presence, that that constitutes a kind of terror in that community? >> absolutely. it creates trauma, terror, fear, all of the alike. i think every step since he was shot has created more layers of trau trauma. and you only get one childhood. unfortunately, we have really impaired that ability for our

children. this has left scars that children and residents will have to deal with for years after this case is done. >> marva robinson in ferguson, missouri, thank you for your work and for joining us this morning. >> thank you. thank you. coming up, connecting with the community in unrest. the new man at the helm of security operations in ferguson. all these municipalities treat us like this. hillsdale treats us like this. they all do that. it's not just ferguson. it's all of them. ugh. heartburn. did someone say burn? try alka seltzer reliefchews. they work just as fast and taste better than tums smoothies assorted fruit. mmm. amazing. yeah, i get that a lot. alka seltzer heartburn reliefchews. enjoy the relief. i'm j-e-f-f and i have copd.

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i would. switch to comcast business internet and get the fastest wifi included. comcast business. built for business. the people of our community need to hear what i'm saying. they've got questions and i invited them here. this isn't about ron johnson. this isn't about the highway county.

it is about the people who live in our community. >> yes, sir. >> when this day is over, a lot of people will be gone. >> yes. >> the people behind you will be here and i will be here. >> that was captain ron johnson of the missouri highway patrol speaking at a press conference explaining to a disgruntled media why he was going to step away from the microphone at the podium and wave deeper into the crowd of citizens gathered to speak directly to them. i want to point out part of the anger here has to do with when this shooting happens in the arc of the death of black men in this country and we have been just dealing with right here in new york city, the chokehold death of eric garner. msnbc's own host and president of national action network, the reverend al sharpton, is in harlem speaking about planned protests, about mr. garner's death. i want to take a quick listen there. >> we will march to the site where eric was choked and lost

his life unjustly and then to the district attorney's office where we're calling on him to hand the case to the federal government and have a rally there next week. >> there's a reason that reverend sharpton is talking about the federal government and that is because african-american communities have defensemmonstr for decades, really basically since the civil war, more support and trust in federal authorities than in local police. is it time for both the new york district attorney and for folks in missouri to hand this over it to the justice department? >> there's always room for both, melissa, and i think that folks in the black community tend to gravitate to the feds because of the civil rights movement, because we have this nationally recognized statute for civil rights violations. however, and just to be clear, so eric garner, that would be the richmond county, staten island, district attorney's office. staten island the problem is it

is majority white folks. so a grand jury, in my opinion, is less probable to indict the officers. that is my opinion. it could be a for show situation which we see a lot of times in new york city where if the officer testifies and then the members of the grand jury see that the officer had reasonable cause that -- and this is according to the pba rez lynch who says it wasn't a chokehold, so he's putting it out there that it wasn't a chokehold where i think the majority of human folks who watch tv and who have vision can see that it was a chokehold. if you get in front of the grand jury, we may not be looking at charges. we can go forward with federal criminal charges and federal civil charges as well as state civil charges, so there are many avenues of recourse. >> i have to say, so it's true that black communities have trusted the federal government more than local municipalities

but it's not the case the federal government has been this panacea to issues of race by any stretch of the imagination. we've been celebrating the 50th anniversary of the civil rights act. it was a monumental achievement in history but not a year later the riots in newark and watts and then eventually coming out the carter commission was ignored by the same president that passed that on civil unrest, on the fact people are feeling they're occupied in their own communities and that felt like the federal government says that our children's lives don't matter. that this violence that we're seeing and the pushback against it doesn't matter enough. we've done the civil rights act. when it comes to the rubber meeting the road in terms of how communities deal with the folks who are supposed to be keeping them safe, the federal government kind of threw up their hands. >> is it because -- >> threw up their hands. is it because police are a different arm of the government than any -- is there a special carve out for law enforcement that leads us to not expect the

level of accountability for them we would for almost any other player of our bureaucracy. >> i think black people don't have this tremendous amount of trust and faith at any level of government including any aspect of the justice department for historical reasons. i think what happens oftentimes people realize the fix is is in at the local level. there is an incestuous relationship between federal prosecutors, state prosecutors and police departments and they're looking for another option, an option that expands the possibilities, an option that perhaps gives more serious and severe penalties if -- if -- you can find that justice. so it really is the lesser of many different evils for black folk, for people in general when they make these demands for the feds. the feds have more resources, more authority, it's more severe when you can get it. but there is a carveout for police officers and that's part and parcel of the justice system

and why people don't trust it. >> i feel like the doj put the tanks on the streets of the neighborhoods and has a specific responsibility to address the civil rights violations that may emerge as a result. thank you to seema iyer, amy farrell. coming up next, presidential responses to community unrest. what it means to be a young black man in america. and one of our favorite guests with more on robin williams. my mother made the best toffee in the world. it's delicious. so now we've turned her toffee into a business. my goal was to take an idea and make it happen. i'm janet long and i formed my toffee company through legalzoom. i never really thought i would make money doing what i love. we created legalzoom to help people start their business and launch their dreams. go to legalzoom.com today and make your business dream a reality.

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three police officers were hurt with minor injuries. no protesters were hurt or arrested. >> al: night law enfolast night standoff with protesters. they did not engage with or try to stop looters. this morning the streets appear calm. joining me now is stay senator maria chappelle whose district includes parts of ferguson. state senator, good morning. given the week it has been, how is your community doing at this point? >> my community is very hurt and upset right now, melissa. i have to tell you we're trying to demonstrate peacefully. we're trying to set some objectives so that we cannot have this kind of situation owe can kur anymore. and so last night as i was getting phone calls at 3:00 in

the morning, many of the pr protesters that i've been on the front lines with for the last several days, since day one actually, called me and said that they were trying to protect some of these businesses. these looters are not from the ferguson area whatsoever. they're from outside. that's what i heard time and time again at 3:00 this morning as millions of protesters that have been with me experienced. what is important to us is that we rebuild the ferguson area. we have to protect these businesses because these employ our residents and we still have to have a measure of sustainability. and so it's unfortunately that we have this air of people coming into our community taking advantage of a situation most impacts young people. most young people are the victims just like michael brown.

>> state senator nadal, one of the things that irritates people in new orleans after hurricane katrina was the extent to which national media kept getting things about our community wrong, just would not quite under. because i recognize that danger, what are we getting wrong? help us to know something about your community that's not being reported right now. >> one of the things that is not being reported is that black and white people live together. we go to bars together. we go to movies together. we hang out. this is in many ways not a racial issue within the community because many of the protesters are black and white and asian but the foe cause has to be directed in the institutional racism that exists in the police department . we know the majority of stops made are african-american,

people who are stopped and we know we have a department that is majority caucasian. so we have to do a better job of having a department that is more reflective of the community and, secondly or thirdly, we also have to ensure that our police officers are engaged intimately in the communities they serve. where individuals do not feel as though they're going to be intimidated but we have to build a bridge and we have to establish trust and that is going to be the first step. my residents recognize not all police officers are bad but they also recognize in the events they have experienced themselves where they have been intimidated by police officers and others, they could have been michael brown. we don't want this to happen anymore. we need to have a strategy in place.

those outsiders placing a dark cloud over ferguson to go away. to all people of ferguson and st. louis county and it's unacceptable and it's not tolerable any longer. >> state senator, i have one last -- we have no time but i have one question i have to ask you, though. what is the unique responsibility of black elected officials in this moment? >> well, i have to tell you, i am a black elected official and i've been on the ground, zero ground or ground zero, since day one. i have not seen many of my colleagues. a good friend of mine from the city of st. louis. so i've been here since day one. i've been tear gassed not once but twice. i think it's unacceptable for that to happen. i believe we have to follow the

same he can ample of jesus. jesus was always among the people. and for any elected official not to be among the people and to have these press conferences from afar in other municipalities or from the comfort of their home or their offices is unacceptable and it's really a disgrace. we need to be with the people who are hurting. we need to list en to them when our u.s. senator came down, claire mccaskill, she had no security. and she embraced this young lady who just got out of jail. she didn't want to talk to her at all. i haven't taken a shower or anything. i said, no, you meet your u.s. senator claire mccaskill. she embraced her as she was crying. that's what elected officials need to do. embrace the people that are hurting so badly inside who are angry because of the intimidation from police officers this week. it's unacceptable for us to have

our first amendment right taken away from us, our freedom of expression and our freedom to assemble. and what st. louis county police officers did is they tear gassed my young people who didn't deserve it. >> state senator maria chappelle-anyw chappelle-nadal in ferguson. thursday the president took a break from his vacation to address the shooting death of michael brown by a police officer in ferguson. at that point protests had been going on for four days. police were facing off with protesters in stunning and often frightening ways. the president spoke before the state highway patrol and captain ron johnson came in to take over crowd control before local police claimed the same day that he was killed, michael brown had stolen from a store. in a statement the president called on both protesters and the police to hold themselves to a high er standard.

>> we all need to hold ourselves at a higher standard. i know emotions are raw right now in ferguson and there are certainly passionate differences about what has happened. >> he spoke about the death of michael brown. >> of course it's important to remember how this started. we lost a young man, michael brown, in heartbreaking and tragic circumstances. he was 18 years old. his family will never hold michael in their arms again. >> i appreciate that the president spoke on this issue. his words fell short. let me explain why. for me when the president describes the shooting of an unarmed teen as a tragic circumstance, it feels as though he's not acknowledging that this death occurs within a larger context, a context that has causes with very deep roots. on thursday what the president did not do was to call for the nation to address the root causes of police brutality or civil unrest in the way, for example, president lbj did in 1967 following the uprisings in

new york. they were sparked by white police violence against black citizens. in detroit and in newark. >> the only genuine long-range solution for what has happened lies in an attack mounted at every level opinion the condition that breed despair and breed violence. ignorance, discrimination, slums, poverty, disease, not enough jobs. >> on thursday president obama did not express a sense of keen presidential obligation in the way that, for example, dwight eisenhower did when he announced federal troops would enforce the integration of public schools in little rock, arkansas. eisenhower returned to the oval office from vacation to explain why he must act to enforce the supreme court's ruling this brown v. board of education because he said the very basis

of our rights and freedoms depend ed on it. >> unless the president did so, anarchy would result. there would be to security for any except that which each one of us could provide for himself. >> now these are vastly different moments in our history. to mobs fighting interfwrags or urban unrest in the 19 0s. the ferguson protests have not led to widespread looting or arson or violence at the hands of either black residents or police in the way we saw in moments. i do want to argue in a democracy the response of our elected officials, the singest highest in the land, does, indeed, matter. joining me now is msnbc contributor and associate professor of international and public affairs at columbia university. i'm also not claiming it's because he's a black president that i need him to say more about this moment and, look, i have been a critic of those who are like, he should just speak about everything.

but this one, what feels like this clash between citizens and the police, i just wanted more. >> and let me give you yet another example, another lbj example from three years earlier from what you showed in 1967. almost 60 years to the day uptown in harlem a white police officer shot a 15-year-old kid named james brown, and this is what will lbj said in responding. new york officials should have all the help we can give them and this includes helping correct the evil social conditions that breed despair and disorder. so he's already previewing that kerner commission speech three years laettnter in 1964. so this is about presidential leadership. it has nothing to do with the race of the president necessa necessarily. it's about, as you said, the leadership of elected officials. as the state senator pointed out, on some level for 30 or 40 years our black officials failed us because there is this silence violence, of poverty, broken

schools, unemployment. of black political empowerment. >> is it possible that eisenhower, that johnson could be more forthright and forward in their discourse because they were white presidents? not that anyone had seen anything but a white president but whenever president obama speaks about this kind of violence against black men is that he begins to equivocate because of how we have trained the president about how people will be attacked if he uses unequivocal language. >> johnson is running for re-election in 1964 when he makes that statement. and later on -- now the president now is a lame duck president. midterms are coming up, but i think if there were any moment, this would have been the moment to actually say something more because we know in other context he said -- he's used very strong

language around protecting children. >> just last week when the president made the decision to return to air strikes in iraq, he used unequivocal language about the yazidi and our responsibility to protect innocent children, women, young people who were being targeted by a state for violence. are we being unrealistic he could say the same thing about his own state in that sense? >> maybe. i can't remember if you said it or someone else, yes, he's in an impossible position and i hope he's playing good cop here and maybe the attorney general or someone else will play the bad cop. >> i was looking for the bad cop -- by which i mean good cop. >> there is an investigation happening into this matter. and we will see what the outcome is. it's still not too late. the president could address this theme of the killings and

murders of unarmed black people over the last month of this summer. >> if he did, would it make things worse or bet er? >> i'm not sure. it depends on what the policy substance is attached to that. words at some level don't matter as much as the policy and structural reforms to fix the problem. >> i think there's a part of me that i'm struggling here because what i want in this moment is what we heard the state senator saying about the presence, of claire mccaskill standing there and part of it was valuable hearing her say that, she told me about u.s. senator mccaskill, which is a reminder it is not just a question about black officials but elected officials. i want them standing there. >> in response in a democracy to the abuses of the government, of the state against its own citizens. that's not -- >> that is what democracy is supposed to protect us from in a way authoritarianism can't. >> and democracy is about

representation but it's also about the right to oppose your government. and that's not what we saw this week as well. we saw the government, the state taking an innocent life and then when people stood up to oppose that very government in the form of policing in particular, then we saw them attacked including journalists. we need people to stand up if a democracy and a democracy to be responsive to all americans and in this moment to black americans. >> msnbc contributor dorian warren, thank you so much for being here. >> thank you. >> stay right there. we have so much more to discuss this hour on the still evoluming story in ferguson, missouri. i'm going to take you a break and tell but a tribute to the late robin williams unlike anything you have seen yet. get in there! go, go, go, go, yes! let's go, drew. the "not-so-good more" would be them always watching you. go for it, paul! get open! come on, paul!

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we have much more on the still unfold iing story in

ferguson, missouri, still ahead on this program. but i'm going to take a moment to bring you important new information about the catastrophic ebola outbreak in west africa. the deadly virus continues to spread with at least 1,145 dead. the world health organization reports that just between tuesday and wednesday of this week there were 152 new cases of the disease and now the governments of guinea, sierra leone have taken drastic measuring, cordoning off sections from which no one is allowed to leave this strategy of internment is a relic from medieval time when countries cordoned off victims of the black preying frlague. it has not been used since 1819. dr. kent brantley released a new statement friday saying he is recovering and hopes to one day

be reyunited with his wife and children. american and canadian drug manufacturers are trying to get drugs approved for usage. earlier this week between 10 and 12 doses of an experimental drug were given directly to the l liberiian prime minister himself. doctors without borders warns it will take six more months to bring the epidemic under control.

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discuss all medicines you take, even eye drops. stop taking spiriva and seek immediate medical help if your breathing suddenly worsens, your throat or tongue swells,... you can get hives, vision changes or eye pain, or problems passing urine. other side effects include dry mouth and constipation. nothing can reverse copd. spiriva helps me breathe better. sfx: blowing sound. does breathing with copd... ...weigh you down? don't wait ask your doctor about spiriva handihaler. three days after oscar winning film great robin williams passed away on monday at the age of 63, his wife announced that williams, who had battled depression and addiction in the past, was sober at the time of his death and was suffering from the early stages of parkinson's disease. on thursday she released this statement about her husband's passing. robin spent so much of his life helping others whether he was

entertaining millions on stage, fi film, our troops on the front lines are or comforting a sick child, robin wanted us to laugh and to feel less afraid. it is our hope that others will find the strength to seek the care and support they need to treat whatever battles they are facing so they may feel less afraid. family, friend, and fans still mourn the loss of robin williams as does one person in particular. you may be familiar with from this program. jamie klistein is a frequent guest on this program. what we did not know he had a deep and enduring friendship with williams. you shared some of his memories. how he helped me out of my depression. jamie shared some of that story with us. >> i was doing a show in san francisco, which is where he lived. he went out to see the show and sat in the audience and i could

hear him. he was literally starting the applause breaks. he was look whooing in the back row. it was crazy. i felt i was performing for him. i grew up associating laughter with robin williams and that was all that mattered to me. i want to make robin williams laugh. he came backstage afterwards. we hung out and we ate and we've just been really close ever since. he was definitely known as a mainstream comic and the stuff he liked, the jokes he quoted back to me, the e-mails he wrote to me, were all about radicalism and challenging the establishment. there were times we needed moeyy money when we were struggling i still turned down money from him because he was so generous. there was a period my partner and i who co-hosts citizen radio, we lived out of our car for years. we created the show when we were

homeless. he called all sorts of industry and told them about me. there was a period of almost a year where it was brought to you by robin williams and no one knew that. it wouldn't be a show without him. he talked me out of comedy more times than i can count. he was like an aa are for sad comedians. he told me not to quit. what stood out was this gentle man who has been through so much telling me that it's going to be okay and me believing him. he tried for so long and was probably sad for so long that, you know, i'm glad and fortunate enough that he was around long enough to have affected so many good people. the e-mails where he said that, you know, i made him laugh.

i mean, i'll have those forever. and if that bought him another 30 seconds, then i'm good with that. with me at the table now is professor of psychiatrist at vanderbilt, dr. jonathan metzl. one of the things that's emerged in the wake of the apparent suicide death of robin williams is suicide contagion. what is that? >> suicide, it's kind of a double-edged sword in a way. it's a very isolated act. it's the ultimate act of loneliness and on the other hand it's a community based illness that in a way people hae about suicide, other people doing suicide, a cohort effect that when certain people start

committing suicide it almost becomes contagious in a certain way. on the one hand there is a cohort effect in suicide that it catches on as despair kind of spreads. and then the other aspect here is that there are commune suicides in the aftermath of celebrity suicides and so we've known that from marilyn monroe on down that also suicide becomes almost like a virus or something like that, that people really should watch out, the aftermath of high-profile suicides like this one. >> we spent almost the whole show today reporting on the stress, the sadness, the fear, the anxieties occurring in ferguson, missouri, as a result of the interactions of this community with these police officers. then you have right in the midst of all of that a man who seems to have everything, you know, if you don't know robin williams, if you on the outside, he's

funny, he's wealthy, he's -- >> he has mental health care. >> he has health insurance, undoubtedly. >> does it mask the ability for us to see the potential for that kind of depression? >> well, i think there are two aspects of that and one is that with performers we don't know what's going on in a way as we just heard comedy particular ly is a way of project iing and beg out in the world. we didn't know what he was thinking when he was not on the stage. there was a very different robin williams and, in a way, that dichotomy was probably ultimately fatal, that he put all the energy out there but the demons remained in his private moments. and i appreciate the question because i think there's a role of kind of what we assume about the stereotypes in a way.

it's certainly something about media and ferguson. but in this case just spenging more broadly, white masculinity, oh, that's the category that people -- the norm or something like that. and in this case, you know, white men are a huge -- especially older white men, a huge risk factor for suicide. it's gone up dramatically in the last ten years and part of why that is white men are terrible at going to the doctor. as they get older they don't form communities. they own firearms which is a huge factor. not in this case. white masculinity is itself a risk factor for this kind of suicide. >> jonathan metzl, just as a matter of disclaimer to say you are a ifphysician and psychiatrt but you did not treat robin williams. i appreciate jamie for allowing us to see some of his pain,

jamie kilstein, a friend of the show. having lost my mentor, dr. maya angelou, under very different circumstances, there is something about the loss of the pillar in your life that is a level we don't always want to have to encounter right away. coming up more on the still developing story in ferguson, missouri, including a discussion on what it means to be young, black, and trying to become a man in america. [guy] i know what you're thinking- you're thinking beneful. [announcer]beneful has wholesome grains,real beef,even accents of

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in the past decade alone, january 24, 2004, timothy stands berry, brooklyn, new york, unarmed. november 25, 2006, shawn bell, queens, new york, unarmed. january 1, 2009, oscar grant, oakland,c california, unarmed.

january 29, 2010, aaron campbell, portland, oregon, unarmed. july 18, 2011, alonzo ashley, denver, colorado, unarmed. march 7, 2012, wendell allen, new orleans, louisiana, unarmed. september 14, 2013, jonathan farrell, charlotte, north carolina, unarmed. july 17, 2014, eric garner, staten island, new york, unarmed. august 9, 2014, michael brown, ferguson, missouri, unarmed. in the past decade alone, these men and hundreds of others have lost their lives to police. local police report to the fbi, killing at least 400 people a year. from 2006 to 2012 a white police officer killed a black person at least twice a week in this country. which brings us back to ferguson, missouri, where according to a report in "the

daily beast" in 2009 police officers charged a man for property damage because he bled on their uniforms while they arrested him and allegedly beat him bloody. ferguson, missouri, where it took six days to release the name of an officer who shot an unarmed teenager to death. ferguson, missouri, where police released images of someone who might be michael brown involved in a store robbery, and then hours later said the robbery had nothing to do with why michael brown was stopped by the police officer who killed him. ferguson is just outside st. louis, missouri, the place where, as historian kelly reminded us this week, dred scott sued for his freedom on the grounds that he and his wife had for three years, had for many years lived in a free state. this case eventually went to the supreme court and in 1857 chief justice roger tanney declared scott had no right to sue because as a black man he was

never intended to be an american. speaking on the clause of the declaration of independence, teddy wrote, quote, it is too clear for dispute the enslaved african race were not intended to be included and formed no part of the people who framed and adopted this declaration. and he went on to say black men had no rights, which the white man was bound to respect. no rights which the white man was bound to respect. no rights which the white man was bound to respect. no rights which the white man was bound to respect. (vo) ours is a world of passengers.

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which can lead to death. this chance increases if you have heart disease or risk factors such as high blood pressure or when nsaids are taken for long periods. nsaids, like celebrex, increase the chance of serious skin or allergic reactions, or stomach and intestine problems, such as bleeding and ulcers, which can occur without warning and may cause death. patients also taking aspirin and the elderly are at increased risk for stomach bleeding and ulcers. don't take celebrex if you have bleeding in the stomach or intestine, or had an asthma attack, hives, other allergies to aspirin, nsaids or sulfonamides. get help right away if you have swelling of the face or throat, or trouble breathing. tell your doctor your medical history. and ask your doctor about celebrex. for a body in motion. those protesting the shooting death of 18-year-old michael browner highlighting the troubling aspects of his death, he was shot while he was clearly unarmed, hands up, don't shoot

has become their chant and it reflects a lesson so many pass along to our young men in our lives. always show the police that you are not a threat. we have even had that conversation on this show before with teens. george nunez and c.j. morrison. these three young men first joined us in march 2012, less than one month after trayvon martin was killed, not by police but by a member of the neighborhood watch. here c.j. morrison speaks about one of two times he was stopped by police walking home from the park with his friends. >> the cop rolls by, he slows down, he stops, and he starts questioning us like, what are you guys doing? do you have drugs? asking us why we're out so late. we just came from the park. you can see behind us, it's the park. why are you questioning us in this way? >> for c.j. his daily reality is one where the perceived threat of danger can lead to dangerous and sometimes deadly outcomes.

c.j. adheres to certain self-made guidelines when going out. he told us, quote, when i do go out, i go out with people i trust, people who i know won't put me in dangerous situations. you have to go out with a plan. know who you will leave with and how you will leave. too often they are forced to shed the care free times of childhood because we have to teach them to stay safe from assailants and the very people meant to protect them. jonathan metzl from vanderbilt university, philip atiba goff from ucla, and also the center for policing equity, jamelle bouie, a staff writer, just back from reporting in ferguson, missouri, and phillip agnew, from an organization work iing r social change. hold for me just a second, phillip. i want to go to you first,

jamelle, did you talk to young people there and what are they telling you. >> i did talk with young people. i asked everyone i talked to but especially young people what are your encounters with the police like and to a person everyone had a story. everyone could say i get stopped five or six times a month, nine or ten times a month. i can't walk to my apartment without them asking where i'm going. i can't really do anything. when i got to ferguson wednesday morning, the guy at the counter, who was maybe a little older, a little younger than me, told me, yo, i have a toyota that i can't drive with the rims that are on it because the police will stop me. so in this area it seems that being a young black person just means the police are part of your daily life in a very antagonistic way which i think is so hard for a lot of people white americans, i grew up in a mostly white area. it was hard for me to understand

that kind of reality where the police are just there the police are there. you have to call the police for the police to come and then when they're done, and that's not the reality for kids in st. louis, kids in new york, and in a lot of other places. >> are you surprised to hear what jamelle heard from young people? >> absolutely not. the cops are taught young black people, brown people, poor people in this country are dirty, have something up their sleeve, are less than human. and deserve what police department s perpetuate every day. i have a story from one of our organizers once told me whenever his mother would leave the house, don't open the door for any strangers and he would say

what if it's the police? then surely do not open the door. surely do not open the door. we have a relationship with the police that has since the history of police departments has always been antagonistic because of police forces that have a license to kill and a license of such weight that isn't put through psychological training, that don't have the requisite cultural training placed on them before they assume their profession. if you're young, you have to watch your back and it's not because of other young black people it's because of the police. >> jonathan, it occurred to me there's another that has life or death capacity that don't have this. we see a huge health disparity in part because of that. let me back up from that.

both jamelle and phillip put their hand on this this feeling of i can't drive a car with rims on it or i can't even go out. but this this is happening at the same time that we have seen news reporting across the country of very different kinds of bodies holding guns, carrying guns, taking enormous weapons into public space purpose ly saying, flaunt it, i have a second amendment right to carry this. and i keep thinking, so you're young and black, you put up your hands and i can see that you are not armed, you will be shot. but it if you are a white man second amendmenter in certain states walking around with your machine gun, that's allowable? >> social psychologists would call this implicit bias. what that means, i'm doing a big project on guns in america, and what i find is that the image of the white -- the crazy white dude walking around chipotle with his semiautomatic tells an

individual story in a way it's all about individual rights and even after mass shootings, for example, we always say, oh, it's this individual shooter's individual brain when it's a white shooter. but we know from civil rights protests on down that when it's the angry black man, all after sudden it's black culture that generalizes those who associate an individual, sometimes there are violent individuals from all backgrounds, but the association people make is, oh, all black men are violent. in a way we heard of the possibility of kind of training. if there is such training, i don't know. obviously it's a bigger cultural story. that association of a generalization we make where we see being again, the white guy in chipotle my individual right or black culture and all of a sudden all young black men look the same to police. >> as soon as we come back, i want to ask you about this question of training, whether or not it will make a difference. phillip agnew, you stay with me as well because i worry about the extent to which we as adults

want to protect young people and youth project want to actually be in the heart of it and i want to talk about that. so up next we're going to talk about hands up, don't shoot. >> i have a son that's 27 who has dreads down to here and i have to talk to him every day, when you are stopped by the police, you don't say a word. you don't move. we should not have to do that. we are citizens of the united states of america. honey, look i got one to land. uh-huh (announcer) there's good more... honey, look at all these smart rewards points verizon just gave me. ooh, you got a buddy. i'm like a statue. i just signed up and, boom, all these points. ...and there's not-so-good more. you're a big guy... huh. oh no. get the good more with verizon smart rewards and rack up points to use towards the things you really want. now get 50% off all new smartphones.

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so whatever that took place there had nothing to do with the individual getting down on his hands and knees, raising his hands in the air and saying, don't shoot, this is a universal call for i surrender. i can hear my cousin's voice right now as i speak saying don't shoot. yet and still the officer stepped to him and shot him is what we're hearing from officer and that is wrong. >> that was eric davis speaking

at a news conference yesterday. phillip, we were looking at research from the black youth project saying that 66% of black youth believe that the police are there to protect them. 26% believe the legal system treats all groups legally. meaning that nearly half don't think they are. how should police change this, rather than how should they -- how should police change that? >> so, it has to begin with a different understanding of what breeds compliance with the law. so there's this thing in the academy we call it deterrence theory. if you make the sentences severe, if you make the policing severe, people will comply with that. compliance with the law begins with powers of examples. not examples of power. powers of example, meaning we

care about this community, it's our community, we are keeping folks safe. so it's those dialogues first. and then second, i really like what you said about making stories that generalize. the generalizable story here, i'm glad we're paying attention to policing which is the racial justice issue of this generation. but we have no national data on how good or bad any of this is. so we need that national data in order to have the conversation at the table so at least we know what's normal and what's not. >> if you grew up in a predominantly white suburb, you may know this thing i sort of knew but then really got clearer on as i had more and more access to privilege. i appreciate what you're saying there. i get that idea. i also think it presumes that white communities and wealthy communities are compliant with the law. and i don't think that's necessarily true. it may be true and it may not. but it is not true as a matter of kind of clear impempirical

evidence. consistently what i see is equivalent levels of law breaking behavior. in the regularized way i've seen has been around those with the most racial and class privilege. they just aren't policed. >> i have a big smirk on my face because i just remember growing up with kids. who tried to organize a fight club in the park. like tried to drive their cars fast 100 miles per hour down empty streets. who like broke the law in oftentimes flagrant ways on a regular basis. >> in college like destruction of property is what we did after a basketball win, right? >> one of the guys went to the naval academy, a productive citizen. i think it's very much about in addition to different methods of policing, a belief and an attitude that black kids are inherently trouble and white kids, even if they're trouble, it's just, you know, it's just

being kids. >> it's boys. phillip, i will come to you and give you the last word today. >> listen, as a black man in this country, it doesn't matter what i have in my hands, the police are conditioned to think i am never unarmed. my skin is black. and so i'm always approached in an and tag ntagonistic way. i think, as i said before, we need from the top level, of government a commitment to changing the way our police departments are trained. they have a license to kill. so when you see a young black person rub away and you see a cop, instead of giving chase, want to shoot him in the back, we have a fundamental problem in our country. the problem isn't with the people. it's the way that we are policed in our neighborhoods. if you want anything to improve, you want the violence to stop, the police need to fall back, they need to allow communities to heeal, and they need to realy re-evaluate the way they police. you come with in tanks and you

come in with riot gear. so if we want to move forward, there has to be a valuation on how we are policed in our communities and that has to happen on behalf of the police. the people are doing what human beings do. >> the entire table, in one word, what does it mean to be a young black man in america today, phillip agnew. >> a threat. >> what does it mean to be a black man in america? >> i was going to say a threat too. >> today, hurting. >> i think a threat, absolutely. >> phillip agnew, thank you. here in new york, thank you to jonathan, phillip, jamal buoy. it is our show today. thank you at home for watching. tomorrow, we are still going to have much more to say about the still developing story out of ferguson, missouri. and of course stay with msnbc throughout the day for continuing coverage. now it's time for "weekends with alex witt." >> we're going to have more on the calls for transparency in the michael brown investigation

and the controversial release of information by police. this as ferguson tries to pick up the pieces after a week of heart break and outrage. also today, texas governor rick perry indicted. we're going to tell you what led to the charges. and social security, will it be there for you or not? a new survey findings its it's bad news. so factors like diet can negatively impact good bacteria? even if you're healthy and active. phillips digestive health support is a duo-probiotic that helps supplement good bacteria found in two parts of your digestive tract. i'm doubly impressed!

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