that's it for this edition of >> msnbc takes you behind the walls of america's most notorious prisons. into a world of chaos and danger. now, the scenes you've never seen. "lockup raw." it's a world where the threat of danger dictates every action and every decision. >> i have seen stabbings over drugs. i've seen stabbings over money owed for canteen. >> i was holding his head on the ground digging one of his eyeballs out. i didn't have the technical difficulties with that. >> i have seen child molesters get stabbed.

>> i hit the inmate. tried to get him by his arm. i slipped. i didn't realize when i slipped. it was all blood. >> a world that "lockup" producers and camera crews explore on a regular basis. >> when we walk into prison with our camera crews, inevitably we attract attention. but sometimes it's not the kind of attention you want to attract. >> plp blood pressure -- [ bleep ] and we don't need y'all around anymore. >> shooting in prison is very controlled for the most part until all hell breaks loose. >> a world where even the most heinous violations are common place. >> squeeze a water bottle and shot urine into my eye and mouth area. >> been advised they've prepared feces and urine for us. when our producers traveled

to alaska, they quickly realized they were about to enter a prison unlike any other. >> i would argue, spring creek correctional center is probably the most beautiful prison in the united states. we're located adjacent to resurrection bay. we have mountains. we have a river behind us. we have a glacier above us. the setting is just perfection. >> but inside the walls of spring creek, natural beauty gives way to the harsh reality of a maximum security penitentiary. >> we're at the end of the road for the state of alaska department of corrections, the worst behaved prisoners end up here. >> those who pose the greatest threat to other inmates and staff are segregated in house one, the lockdown unit. >> basically, minimum rights. minimum, they're in their cells for 23 hours a day. >> on the day we wanted to interview him, house one inmate antonio robertson was in an especially foul mood.

>> [ bleep ], [ bleep ]. [ bleep ]. >> calm down. >> every one of you [ bleep ], [ bleep ], i'm going to start with, you guys are [ bleep ]. we need more. what do you want to know? >> robertson, serving a 60-year sentence for murder has spent most of the last two years in house one. >> why are you in here? >> at house one? it's a long story. i been being assault sod i assault people back. i refuse to let myself be assaulted and not fight back. >> robertson not only fights with other inmates. he fights with staff as well. >> i was disrespected. i decided to make the guys do a cell extraction. >> days before our interview, the prison's correctional emergency response team had to forcibly remove robertson from his cell for refusing to follow orders. these cell extractions are videotaped by the prison for legal reasons.

>> this use of force is authorized by the superintendent -- >> extraction team officers always prepare for anything the inmate might have in store for them. >> we've been advised by the house staff that he has prepared feces and urine for us. >> because they disrespected me, all this cuff up, robertson, see, they want to talk all that mess. attempt to talk all that mess in front of all these prisoners. and may be a little bit like -- and if you want to cuff up. i'm not going to cuff up. you disrespected me. we're going to do this. >> cuff up. >> with robertson still refusing orders, the extraction team disperses pepper spray into his cell. >> but it appears to have little effect.

>> the stuff they use on me was the regular old cayenne pepper stuff. it does burn. i've gotten used to it already. i knew it was going to hurt. i did it anyway. i'm doing a life sentence. there's no way i'm going to let an officer disrespect me in front of another prisoner. >> a second round of pepper spray floods the cell. robertson, however, stands firm. moments later, the team rushes the cell. the lead officer activates an electronic stun shield capable of delivering a 50,000-volt shock. temporarily incapacitated, robertson is finally removed

from his cell and cuffed. >> do you think i'm a [ bleep ] now? >> robertson is then taken to a holding area to rinse the pepper spray from his eyes and face. >> oh, my god. are you guys just going to leave me here forever? you could at least be proud that i fought back. >> everybody okay? thumbs up, thumbs up. >> nobody really got hurt. well, i didn't get hurt. because i -- i'm not trying to really get hurt until i'm ready to get hurt. but if i do get hurt, well -- that's just one of the consequences of doing battle. not far from robertson's cell is

an inmate also known to treat prison like a war zone. >> with most of my interests are like firearms and stuff, so this is one of my doodles. >> that's a pretty detailed doodle. >> well, i have plenty of time on my hands. >> for inmate john bright, plenty of time means a 99-year sentence for murder. >> i got in trouble for being a -- a -- a hitman for organized crime. i thought that organized crime was cool. i thought drug dealers were cool. i watched "scarface" 20 times, bought the video when it cost $100. 1984 when it came out. i watched it 100 times over and over again. >> he claims to be wrongfully convicted but doesn't deny his taste for violence. >> i never killed anyone. i'm a fighter. i'm not a hitman. i'm not a murderer. i'm not a back stabber. i'm a fighter. i've been in a fight in bravo mod. i've been in a fight in charlie mod. i've been in a fight in delta mod.

i've been in a fight on the rec yard. >> at this point in time he is one of our extreme management problems. he doesn't play well with others. and so he stays here. >> i don't go, hey, i'm looking for somebody to get in a fight with. this guy looks like a good candidate. i'll be watching tv one day trying to be nonaggressive, nonconfrontational, here comes mr. idiot inmate. crack-smoking child molester and changes the tv channel. well, if i get in an argument with the guy, he's going to want to fight. if we get in a fight, he's going to providence hospital, i'm going to house one. >> and bright has sent fellow inmates to the hospital. >> he got in a fight with a prisoner. he bit his finger off. >> i got ahold of one of his fingers, when i seen i could crush through the bone. i got a better grip. and bit a third of his right index finger off. he started screaming. he got up. it was bleeding all over and i spit his finger on the floor.

>> though bright bit off the inmate's finger, he didn't succeed in what he really set out to do. >> i was holding his head on the ground. digging one of his eyeballs out. i'd been having technical difficulties with that. i've been trying that the last couple of times. >> what? >> popping their eye out. i beat on them and broke them. so i decided to try blinding one seeing if that makes them understand to leave me alone. >> during our interview, bright indicated he still maintains hope in prison and if he ever loses it, there could be real trouble. >> if i woke up tomorrow and decided i'm going to live here and never go home, never have a life, i would be killing people. if i decided this is what i got coming and there's nothing to live for and they're not going to let me out of the hole they would have to weld my door shut forever. >> though he's an intimidating presence, bright maintains he's really nothing to worry about. >> the littlest guy here is not scared of me. i don't intimidate anybody. i'm like a gummy bear.

what was that? oh, a marshmallow. >> you're a marshmallow? >> i'm a marshmallow. i'm a combat marshmallow but i'm a marshmallow. coming up on "lockup raw: ever present danger." >> cracked his ribs, jaw, broke his collarbone too. >> the ghastly results when inmates unleash their rage on correctional staff. >> i broke my tv, made a couple shanks and assaulted him. protec. we monitor every purchase every day and alert you if anything looks unusual. wow! you're really looking out for us. we are. and if there are unauthorized purchases on your discover card, you're never held responsible. just to be clear, you are saying "frog protection" right? yeah, fraud protection. frog protection. fraud protection. frog. fraud. fro-g. frau-d. i think we're on the same page. we're totally on the same page. at discover, we treat you like you'd treat you. fraud protection. get it at discover.com

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to engage students in schools and special education classes. while ginger visits folks in the hospital offering quiet comfort. with your help, we can do even more! make a donation at mattressdiscountersdogs.com or any mattress discounters. mattress discounters good deed dogs helping dogs help people. shooting in a prison is a totally unique experience. but things can go to hell real fast. you sort of have to be on your toes. >> i haven't met a correctional officer who hadn't been involved in some sort of altercation or hadn't been stabbed or beat up by an inmate. it's part of the job. >> blink of an eye, something can go wrong. blink of an eye you can lose your life or be crippled for life. >> you never know one day to the next, you know. you come in here, you don't know if you're going home when your

shift's over. >> don't trust any of them. none whatsoever. because they're not in here for singing too loud in church. >> it really shocked me how cruel and emotionless these people can be. because they're humans but they're real hard inside. >> at the holman correctional facility in alabama, we met inmate kenny wilson. he was housed in the prison's administration segregation unit. >> i had about five or six charges. main -- my most biggest charge is dealing with a teenager, which i was 16 and she was like 15, i believe. i ended up, know what i'm saying, just dealing with both of them, the mom and the daughter. came in 15 years, and i got 15 more. >> originally convicted of rape

and theft, wilson earned his second 15-year sentence while behind bars after he brutally beat a corrections officer. >> ended up, i just gave him early retirement. cracked his ribs, jaw. think i did something to his hips, too. broke his collarbone, too. to me it was no thing, it was prison. you don't come here and work here and think it's cake. >> do you regret what happened? >> no, he ain't die. he just won't be a correction officer no more. >> despite his attitude, some at holman are trying to help wilson turn his life around. >> i've known him several years. a long time. i have a history with him. he's a young man with a lot of anger problems. he acts out through his anger. that's what we're trying to deal with now. >> i got a bad anger problem, know what i'm saying? angry because i'm in prison. i'm angry because i ain't with my family.

i'm angry because of the way they treat you, the things they do to you. it ain't never a happy day in prison. >> at the time of our visit wilson had just completed an anger management program, that deputy warden tony patterson arranged for him to take in his cell. >> he needs to grow up. immaturity. you know. but he's working on it. >> i got kids, man. everybody going to change one day. >> for wilson, change is essential. most of his sentence for assaulting the officer will overlap with his original sentence. but just a day after we interviewed him, wilson's anger surfaced again. when he saw our crew on the exercise yard, he greeted them with an obscene guessture. >> one [ bleep ], y'all, two, retire. we don't need y'all around here no more. your time up. >> some days they like us. some days they don't want to see

us. i think that's kind of a function of being in prison. you're mostly pissed off all the time anyway. if you can take it out on the film crew, why not. >> though wilson may enjoy his freedom again, it's too late for one other inmate whose anger has had disastrous consequences. >> my name is jesus garcia, i have been incarcerated for nearly 12 1/2 years. i'm incarcerated for first degree murder and i have life plus 26 years to serve. >> when we met jesus garcia at penitentiary of new mexico he had recently been involved in the bloody assault of two officers. >> leading up to that day there had been incidents where they messed with me. that was the third time. i said, that was it. that's enough. i broke my tv, made a couple shanks and assaulted them. assaulted one of them. i got him, and then another officer came to his rescue and obviously trying to defend myself, i assaulted him, too. >> they were slashed around the

head, neck, came very close to the jugular on one of the officers. >> i remember running into the pod. there was an inmate between both of them and they were both being stabbed. >> aaron bell rushed to aid his fellow officers moments after the assault began. >> i hit the inmate, tried to get him by his arm, and i slipped. and i didn't realize what i slipped on was all blood. >> it took a couple of minutes before we got other officers in there to respond, pull jesus off and get medical attention to the officers. >> i was covered from basically my neck down with blood. it wasn't the inmate's blood, it was my fellow officers' blood. >> had that guy not been there to save them, i probably would have killed them. breaking news, let's go to ferguson, missouri and amanda with msnbc.com. i understand there has been some kind of development involving smoke or tear gas.

what can you tell us? >> yes. police are pulling canisters. it feels like tear gas. my eyes are burning. it feels like my lungs filled with pain and smoke. they are firing into crowds. i saw two small children, young girls, that couldn't have been older than maybe 12 in the crowd. they had parents around them telling them to put their shirts over their faces. they looked so scared. the crowds are fleeing everywhere and trying to leave, but there's almost nowhere to go. so the armored vehicles slowly advancing. and there are more canisters being deployed there. i just saw a man collapse to the ground. i don't know why. there are camera crews all around him as well. there are plumes of smoke still

billowing up on the street. >> we're seeing a menacing looking police presence right in front of us. what can you tell us about what led up to this? >> i heard reports on twitter that the st. louis police department said that they heard reports of gunshots. and there were reports of a ambulance leaving the scene. i'm at a mcdonald's right now where the glass window has been busted in. people are standing around as more of the armored vehicles slowly inch forward down the street. >> it looks like a lot of vehicles. how far do you think that goes? >> i see four at the moment and there are teams -- there are police officers kneeling towards the man who collapsed onto the

ground. it appears they are helping him. tha there are maybe eight, nine police officers surrounding the man. meanwhile, the armored vehicles continue to advance down the street. >> i think that what we are looking at right now is what you were describing. it looks like some police are -- are trying to -- >> more canisters on the street. >> i can see that right now. i -- can you tell right now if that is smoke or tear gas? >> i'm unable to tell. the crowds are kicking back the canisters. it appears this might be smoke in that -- it's not deterring the crowd the way the tear gas has in the past. >> what we just saw, and we're seeing canisters being thrown onto the ground in perking son, missouri. we just saw a group of law enforcement personnel assisting somebody. we have no idea how that person

is injured or what condition that person is in. they did pick up a person and are carrying them away at this moment. we're looking at this live right now in ferguson, missouri where just seconds ago we saw more canisters thrown into the street there. police there wearing masks to cover their own faces. we're also seeing members of the press wearing those masks as well. we're there. i want to -- i want to get your point of view about what the crowd was like before this happened. >> i advanced from a side street, but the crowd right now is not deterred. they are still standing in the middle of the street. still hundreds of people, many young people holding signs. they are -- they have masks over their faces -- makeshift masks. there are lines of cops making it so that you cannot go through side streets or alleyways.

the crowd is still advancing but holding their ground. with their hands up, they're yelling "don't shoot." >> let's go to a witness to all of this who joins us on the phone. what can you tell us? >> everybody, they was marching a peaceful march. when they got to the end where the police was, they started shooting out tear gas. i was trying to cut through in the back of mcdonald's, someone got shot in the leg and the mcdonald's window got shattered. >> do you know who fired that shot? >> no, no, the cops and everybody was running too. these people firing, they was firing everywhere. >> were people -- was it a large crowd out marching? sort of set the scene for us as we see more gas or smoke canisters being thrown towards

the crowd now marching. >> yes. they was doing a peaceful march back and forth up and down the street. when they got to the end where the police had it blocked, they actually just started firing tear gas. >> tell us -- >> and everything -- pardon? >> tell us -- we're looking at a crowd. it looks -- obviously they are carrying signs. it looks like they are moving forward. tell me what the crowd is doing as we see police and armored vehicles advancing toward that crowd right now. tell us what you see from your perspective. >> we came to the -- i'm with your guy here because the tear gas, the smell, we just can't take it. because his face is burning also. >> so you are all feeling the effects of tear gas in your eyes -- >> yes. >> -- and when you breathe? >> yeah, and face burning. it's terrible. now they firing -- they going

crazy now. they shooting the tear gas and all this stuff up now. >> we are seeing a lot more tear gas being fired towards this crowd of demonstrate traitors right now. the street is filled with smoke. i can't really tell from this point of view how many police are out there, but it looks like a lot. >> it is. >> let's go back to amanda. tell us what the droemts look like. >> i just had to run away. there are far more canisters being deployed into the sides of the street. it is everywhere. the gas was coming up so quickly. people are running. prior to this, there were -- the crowd -- the crowds were advancing on the cops as the armored vehicles slowly inched forward and they came closer and closer together. there is a person limping in the street. there are now sirens going off.

so much louder. the armored vehicles are -- they're not just inching. they're driving forward now. the crowd is regathering. it is largely pushing the crowd of protestors, hundreds of them, pushing them back further down the street. >> it does not appear like the crowd is running away. are they lingering? are they retreating at all? >> they are simply running from the plumes of smoke. i wouldn't say restreeting, but they're definitely fleeing whenever there are more canisters being deployed. there's a small reprieve now as the smoke billows away and we can have a clear vision as the police have a clear vision of the crowd in front of them. they're announcing please disburse, please disburse and

the crowd ask still -- there are still some on the front lines. but there are also mediators here blowing whistles and pulling people away and urging them to not advance. >> and -- >> more canisters. they come out in fiery flames and kind of bounce down the street. and more smoke. >> and it makes it difficult to breathe? >> yeah. i -- i -- my nostrils hurt. it's better now that we're able to get a bit of a reprieve. the recent canisters were -- it looks like a warning shot almost. far ahead of the crowd. but now you can see the crowd is kind of growing in numbers in the middle of the street. people are slowly advancing. there are vehicles trying to get away but there's nowhere for them to go because the traffic is clogged up. and even if these people are wanting to leave, they would not be able to.

>> let's go back to ms. butler who is a witness to all of this. are you still with us? >> yes. yes. >> it looks like this crowd is not retreating at all. >> no, you can tell they still out there. and, i mean, it's just sad and they just getting the tear gas and everything. you hear people screaming and hollering. when you try to run and get away, you say you shouldn't just fire, we running away from the crowd. they firing up the street at us. >> do you feel that -- do you feel that this crowd is -- are they -- i can't really see them very well through the line of police vehicles right now. but is the crowd looks like it is very lively and that they are not -- this is not look like a calm demonstration to me. >> right. because i really can't see because we up on a hill looking

down. only thing we can see is the flashing lights now. i got away from it because of the tear gas. >> let's go back to amanda with msnbc.com as we look at live pictures of this situation in ferguson, missouri as even more police are advancing toward a crowd of demonstrate traitors. multiple canisters of tear gas have been fired into that crowd, but they do not seem to be disbursing, is that right? >> they're definitely stepping back. they're milling now among the cars trying to get out. and they're almost taunting -- some in the front are almost taunting the police. but what's most apparent is that there's so many cars, the traffic is so backed up, even if people do want to leave, they would not be able to. >> let me just bring everybody up to date on what we are looking at right now. this is a live picture from ferguson, missouri in a downtown

area where a crowd of demonstrate ors has met with a larger crowd of armed police and armored cars trying to disburse that crowd. they've been asking them to leave. they have asked them to be calm. the crowd is retreating a bit. as we have heard the scene described, the tear gas has been very heavy at times. it is making it difficult to breathe. the police are asking that crowd to back off. it is obviously a huge police presence there in ferguson, missouri tonight as we are just couple of hours before the midnight curfew was supposed to take effect. do you think that people are trying to get in a last demonstration before the midnight curfew goes into effect, or is it your impression they are planing to buck that order. >> my impression is that the curfew is the last thing on

their mind right now. there are a significant number of mediators who are trying to talk down the leaders of the crowd. they're in many ways becoming successful in making sure that these protestors aren't advancing. the police in armored cars have stopped advancing, i would assume because there's so much traffic backed up in the cars trying to leave the area. the number of protestors, they're still in the hundreds, but definitely not as strong. the mediators still continue to try to press back. more canisters were just deployed, but still too far in front of the protestors to do much damage. it reads as almost a warning shot, once again. with this time that the protestors are being given, they're slowly starting to get more courageous and walk forward

holding signs saying, hands up don't shoot. >> you have been describing what you mentioned are mediators. who are these mediators? are they members of the community? are they professionals there to do this? or is it a -- let us -- please explain who they are. >> there are a number of groups that even -- even state officials have given head nod to in helping the police kind of disburse the crowd. there was a black panther party that has been largely successful in calming all of the rowdy uprisings that we've seen. there's a group of other men who has this mother figure who has been there to give routes for the protestors to leave, to let them know what they're options are. there's currently a man running

into the middle of the street, very close to where the armored cars are. his hands are up in the air and he's slowly walking back and retreating. but now as more time has passed since there have been more caniste canisters, they're getting more courageo courageous, they are slowly but surely gaining in numbers in the middle of the street. there are slowly more of them gaining momentum. i just heard a loud bang. i'm not sure what it was. i am anticipating some more canisters to be deployed being that the crowds are starting to -- to advance. . and -- >> go ahead. i'm sorry. >> they're throwing rocks at the cops. i believe they're rocks. i think they're picking up whatever they can find on the

street. it almost looks like a last hue ra and walking away. the main leaders at the -- more canisters. that's tear gas. deployed closer to the crowds this time. the protestors running up to the canisters to kick them further away, to throw them back at the police officers. and -- and they almost caught just about all of the different canisters and threw them back at the police. so there are more canisters being deployed. the protestors are catching them in their hats and throwing them back at the police. and they're gaining in confidence now. you can hear them cheering and clapping and almost taunting the cops to try to do more. they're advancing slowly. we hear more sirens coming. i can see -- >> it appears they're walking

away, at least some of them. >> the protestors or the -- >> the protestors. >> as far as my vantage point at the front of the line, they are gaining in numbers. they are now in unison, hands up, don't shoot. some are on their knees kneeling in the middle of the street with their hands up while filming this all on their cameras and iphones. they're slowly advancing more and closer and closer. and gaining more ground in the middle of the street. >> let's go to al derman antonio french who has been heavily involved in these nontragss. are you actually out on the street right now? >> yeah, i am. i'm in my car. right here. yeah. >> tell me what you're -- tell us exactly where you are and what you're seeing, please. >> yeah, i'm parked in my car on the street here. and right near the demonstrate

traitor's line. they've shot gas into the crowd trying to disburse them and push them back. the line is advancing right now. protestors are staying in the streets. they have a line with their hands up. the police have three lines advancing. they just shot some more gas into the air. there's a line that's running backwards. >> we're hearing a group of loud explosions. it appears that there is more tear gas and/or smoke. can you describe what those blasts sound like to you? are those the canisters being fired? it looks like they're firing a lot right now. >> yeah, they are. they're trying to break this up. yeah. and it -- they're moving back, but the police line is moving

forward. there are actually a lot of journalists and camera men out here, photographers. yeah -- >> can you tell us -- the air completely filled with smoke right now and they are -- they are pushing the protestors back. >> can you tell us what led up to this that we're seeing right now? we know there's a curfew at midnight, but this is obviously well before that curfew. >> yeah, it just got a little too rowdy. there was a -- when i came out -- >> it got too rowdy, are you talking about the protestors or people just out and about? >> yeah, i mean the people that were out here, it was pretty rowdy, especially around the qt area and the area of the barbecue store. while i was out there, there was a ruckus and then a lot of

people started running. it looked like some young men was chasing somebody and the next thing you know you heard gunshots. >> so you did hear gunshots then? >> oh, yeah. >> we understand that one person was shot in the leg. do you know who that was and who was firing these gunshots? >> i don't know who was shot. it was -- it was not police who fired. it was something in the crowd and from what i read on twitter and a report from the police department, it was a woman and they said she was grazed. i don't know any other information besides that. there was another small fight at the qt area. some -- some of the other young men out there, rapper and some of his guys helped break that up. but it was just getting very rowdy. first thing i noticed when i came out tonight is there wasn't enough adults out here, there

wasn't the necessary ratio of adults. so i did get on the phone and call some people. but i guess they didn't arrive soon enough. but -- and then after that -- after there was the shooting and a woman got injured, police had to come in. they couldn't just you know let that be. >> so what you're saying is this a very young crowd. how would you describe the age group of the crowd that you describe as being rowdy? >> these are young men probably between the ages of 18, 26. yeah, there just wasn't a good, what i would call man to boy ratio. >> do you believe that most of these people that you're talking about, are they from ferguson are are they coming in from other areas now? >> it's a lot of people from other areas but some of these guys are from ferguson, some of

them are from the same street michael brown was killed. what has happened over the last few days is that the crowd in the daytime, the protests in the daytime are a very different crowd. these guys don't really come out until late. you know, they have a different interpretation of, no justice, no peace. >> okay. with that said, you were describing as you put it, your words was that there was not a proper man to boy ratio here, in other words it's a young crowd that in your opinion got a little too rowdy. we understand that there were mediators out there. first of all, are you one of those mediators? and as you put it earlier, what do you think needs to be done to change this situation? >> well, as i said, i think we need more leaders, more leaders out here. you know, i think -- i think

captain johnson of the missouri highway patrol has done a good job and he's allowed the community room to keep the peace themselves. but -- but, yes, i think there has been some part failure on the part of that community to answer that call late in the evening. sometimes we've seen good results and a good ratio of adults to young adults. but tonight, there wasn't enough of us adults out there. i talked to a lot of the young guys. and, you know, it's something we're going to have to work on. but the situation, and i want you to understand, really what the situation is is that since we are at a point where even the slight presence of police can be so inflammatory, almost leading to a riot, we really have asked you know for some room to give

them young men some space to avoid violence. but that also means that the community has to step up and kind of police it themselves. >> who do you think they'll listen to? >> well, there are some individuals who have a lot of credibility. i think part of it is that -- you know, i think a lot of this unrest comes that they feel disconnected from the greater community. i think that is even continuing during this time. a lot of these discussions about next steps, a lot of these discussions about the path to justice for michael brown and his family have not involved them. and i think that's what we should really work on. >> i hope that you can stick around because we would definitely like to speak with you again. for now, to jim kav gnaw. correct me if i'm wrong. >> we just -- >> former atf special agent, are you with us? >> yes, i'm here.

>> what is your reaction to the live images that you're seeing? >> well, it looks you know worse than it is at the moment. you know, you don't have anybody being shot, beaten, there's no arson afoot here. you have to analyze this -- the police are doing that currently. you know, people are returning around, they're holding up signs. there is a lot of rocks you can see in the street debris. the on scene commander is going to assess this appropriately. we're seeing restraint. we're not seeing officers wading into the crowd or anything like that. so i agree with the aiderman that i think police action had to happen if a woman was shot. and you know, it was getting a little out of hand. you know, a rock can hit someone striking them in the head. it's not something that you can just leave. right now, it's static. they've shot some gas, but

they're not shooting gas at the moment. i would say that the on scene command is carefully assessing it and trying to decide what their next move may be. since there's no curfew until midnight and it's a couple hours away, as long as it doesn't change the -- the status from what's going on at present, if it doesn't change a lot more violent, then maybe the on scene commander will hold static conditions at least until curfew. >> we were just listening to the alderman antonio french on the scene. he was describing this as -- i don't know if you heard him saying it. he said something interesting. that he went out there earlier and it was a crowd of young people. he said there aren't enough grownups out there. one of the suggestions he made was the police instead of trying to crowd them out, to give them

some space. what do you think about that? >> well, they're moving now. so they're not going to give them space now. looks like they've made a decision to move the police line forward. i think more than space is what you got to show them is actual justice. these young men don't believe that the police officer is going to have to face a court. they don't believe it. until they see no more talk and some action, i think it's the first step in closing the wound, the wound of michael brown on the community. so that's where the investigative side has really got to, you know, come to bat. they've been slow. they've been making promises. they -- talking about getting a toxicology report or, you know, waiting for all kinds of things. they really need to assess the evidence they have at hand and

determine if it's probable cause or more than enough probable cause to make a charge or did the public see it all wrong, did the country see it all wrong, and are there other facts they can bring and they're going to explain those. they need to make some decisions. >> to everybody at home watch g watching, we are seeing another round of tear gas canisters being fired towards those protestors. we have also seen police advancing. we can't tell whether the crowd is retreating or not. we can tell you that they have not been, but they may step back and regroup a little bit. but then they come right back on. they've been kicking the canisters right back at them from where they came. let's go to another witness. he's on the phone with us. are you right there where this is happening right now? >> we were live streaming and we pulled the vehicle in right between the protest tors and the

line of police as they advanced. we pulled off the road to clear out of the way so the police could perform their duties. as we were filming, the officers continued to advance. an officer came into the parking lot, they gassed the parking lot that we were in. and shined the light in the lens of our cameras. told us to turn off. and at that point, they told us to get down off of the vehicle and come back this way behind the line. >> they told you to turn off your camera's? >> yes. >> and are you news media? >> yes. >> you are. okay. i'm sorry. >> as a matter of fact, on wednesday, the aclu used me as a plaintiff and we had an agreement in federal court in missouri that the state county and municipal police would not interfere with the media as long as the media was not directing stopping them from performing

their duties. >> were there also demonstrators in that parking lot? >> no. they had been cleared out earlier. >> is it your impression they want everyone off the streets even though it's not a curfew yet. >> i think they want everyone off the streets even though we are still before the curfew. >> it looks like the police are advancing quite a bit now. as i just mentioned, there has been another round of canisters fired. the smoke is very, very thick. do you have an impression that the demonstrators are moving away or standing their ground? >> no the demonstrators are standing their ground. they were yelling at the police officers, it's not midnight yet, we have a right to protest. some of the younger demonstrators in the crowd were riled up. there were canisters thrown back at the police. there were rocks being thrown at

the police. there were bottles being thrown at the police. this is all out of outrage. the community feels frustrated without any answers in the ongoing investigation. >> we have heard more than one person say that what led up to this that there were shots fired not by police, but by somebody else who was out there. looks like we lost the picture for just a second. people have been saying that shots were fired. did you witness any of that? did you hear them? >> we did not witness the event. we were filming the march which was on the other end towards ground zero which is the burnt out quiktrip. they had marched all the way to the corner near the interstate and peace any marched back. as we were resetting up the camera equipment, somebody came running and saying they had let smoke off down by the mcdonald's which was the staging area for all of the media last night. we then procedured to come down

toward the mcdonald's. they helped move all of the vehicles out of the way so we could get through. that's when we got caught in the parking lot between the dem stray tors and the police. >> aside from the obvious, which is the police are obviously a huge and heavily armed and a very imposing presence, how would you describe in general the interaction between the police and the people that they are trying to disburse? have you overheard conversations between them and what have those conversations been like? >> we just possibly heard gunfire. there's a gentleman behind me saying that that's gunshots right there. it did not sound like any of the explosions earlier. but the sentiment of the crowd is growing more hostile as night after night this curfew is in force when all they want is to

pea peacefully demonstrate? >> have you spoken with demonstrators? >> yes, all night. >> what are they telling you? >> the main thing they are asking is why has the officer involved in the shooting not been indicted or charged with the murder of michael brown. of course, we know the investigation is much more complicated than a clear cut and dry, we're going to charge him or we're not. and we know that the fed versus stepped in to assist with the investigation. but the people on the street are not being -- they do not feel that they're being given enough information as the investigation goes along. and the sentiment of the community is that this is going to be a coverup or that the officer will not be charged at all. >> i believe we have video of you that we can play. yep, there you are. it looks like your eyes are watering from the tear gas.

this was just a short while ago i believe. there you are speaking with a police officer. describe to us, please, what it -- what you felt like in that moment when -- obviously the tear gas is really getting to you. >> when the tear gas hits you, your lungs are con trikted and it's very hard to breathe. everything that in your lungs is forced out and your skin is burning, your face is on fire, your eyes are watering. you try to close them and fight through the breathing so you can breathe deep and get enough air to take your next breath. >> okay. thank you very much. we're going to move back to amanda of msnbc.com. it looks like the police have made quite a bit of headway down the street. they definitely just fired another very large round of tear gas canisters at the crowd.

can you see if all of this is having any kind of a result? >> yes. retreating back -- [ inaudible ] there's a backup in traffic and they're unable to leave quickly and the protestors are milling around the cars. just moments ago, there were four men lighting a molotov cocktail. they ran ahead and attempted to throw it at the police. it burned out before they were able to do so. earlier, i saw someone brandishing a gun and i heard gunshots firing into the crowd. i did not see anyone affected. and the people are now -- now milling around the cars, but it looks like the crowd is in many ways disbursing or just a lot of -- there are many photographers here from the media. every time that they -- they start aiming photos at the protestors, they kind of em

bollen them to get together in crowds and advance toward the -- towards the police. right now, it's a traffic jam of cars that's kind of preventing the protestors from really gaining any type of strength in numbers. >> amanda, the one person that -- it really does seem that these crowds seem to respect and listen to it all, is captain ron johnson of the highway patrol, given everything that is happening, have you seen or heard of him being on the scene there tonight? >> he typically is on the street and on the ground with the people. but i believe i would characterize the main line protestors who are aligned with him, those are the protestors that you see during the day, you see the families and you see the residents of ferguson and the neighboring st. louis area. when it turns night fall, the protestors tend to shift in

numbers and shape. it's less -- fewer -- fewer adults as the alderman was saying earlier. now, it's mostly young people, mostly men. they are in many ways taunting the police at the front lines of the protest. others who are milling around are more just watching the spectacle than participating in the protest or participating in the active advancement of the crowd. right now, they are somewhat disbursed in many senses. they definitely do not have the strength in numbers that they had maybe 20 minutes ago. there's been a flood since the last rounds of canisters, smoke, and tear gas were deployed. there's been a sudden rush of more cars trying to leave. >> okay. >> but they're all try tolling leave at the same time. >> we had a guest on earlier who was saying that news media who

were pointing cameras at a situation, that there were police who came into the parking lot where they were and told them to turn their cameras away. have you experienced anything like that? >> i -- i haven't. they -- from my experience, they've let me mill around today or right now. but i think -- i think mostly it's -- i don't have a camera on me. i just have my notepad. and it's easier for me to be able to be more fluid with the situation. i have heard others say they've had difficulty making it through the police line. that being said, right now it's a bit chaotic. the crowds are now gaining back and the police are advancing forward in their ranks. >> let's go to someone with usa today there on the ground. can you hear me? >> yes, i can hear you.

>> thank you for being here with us today. it looks like the police from -- at least from the vantage point i have, the police have moved quite a bit forward. what are you seeing right now? >> the police have moved quite a bit forward. when i was there, we started off at the mcdonald's probably half a mile up the street. now we're almost by the quiktrip which is where the screen of most of this has happened. we've moved at least half a mile in the last 30 minutes. these are at least 200 people. so they have 200 people move half amile. a lot of that was running. that was tear gas. that was intimidation to get people to move back. it's a really hard thing to do. >> well, the police clearly want the crowd to disburse. from what you can tell, is the crowd actually disbursing or are they moving back with the police moving forward? >> some people have left. but there are a lot of people

here, at least maybe 150 people still here that are still -- when they can, walking toward the police in some ways sometimes. and some of them are walking backwards. the crowd's thinning a little bit. i wouldn't consider it disbur disbursing at all. >> we're seeing police move in different directions. some looked like they were moving towards a side street or a parking lot or something, guns drown very visibly. we are seeing police, the commander on the ground is giving some specific directions. in the past few minutes how has the police action changed in your -- from what you can see? >> the police action has changed -- i mean, the last few minutes, the police, from my vantage point are just really moving forward. i'm on the front lines of where the protestors are clashing with the police. i haven't seen any police on site. i've only been able to look down the side streets.

i haven't actually walked down them. i can't see any police with guns drawn. but i have heard what sounds like gunshots actually in the other direction, not the direction of the police but the other direction. there's a moment where they were firing tear gas i was running away from them and i had begun shots and had to run back towards the police. i heard gunshots, but i haven't seen any guns. >> you are the second or third person to tell us you've been hearing gunshots. that may explain why some of the police are moving out and about in different directions. looks like they're continuing to move forward again. >> i wonder if you can agree with what amanda says that some people are simply caught in traffic. some people who had nothing to do with any of this are syruply stuck in their cars without any way to move? >> i'm looking at cars right now

stopped in traffic because there are protestors blocking the street and standing in the street. in some cases, the cars have nowhere to go. so police right now are making an announcement to move -- what the -- >> i'm running. one moment. >> are you okay? >> yes, i'm okay. what sounded like gunshots. >> don't worry about us. if you need to run or duck or do anything, please do. don't even think about it. >> i can stay on the phone. what i heard was gunshots. and again, going back to what we were talking about earlier -- while i hear gunshots -- cars are still blocked, there's nowhere to go if you're in a car. i'm walking away from the police. i can still keep going away from them. >> what are those people doing? are they panicking? we are seeing cars moving. i can't imagine being