the data says we don't have equal protection under the law. so is it inexcusable if some police -- not all, not even most -- feel they are above being questioned. we must really have peace and come together to show the world who we are. thanks for watching. i'm al sharpton. "hardball" starts right now. calling in the guard. this is "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. tonight, all roads lead to ferguson. the missouri national guard is there. so is the group black lawyers for justice, and the nation of islam. attorney general eric holder is headed there wednesday. what will come of this national collision of emotion and demand? something better? a better chance at criminal justice regarding the death of michael brown? a better chance for a wider

social justice between the deprived communities of this land and the wider america? will the police officer be dealt with in jut? will the cries of the ferguson community for justice be heard and satisfied? will there be peace as those who demand justice here await it? that's the question on the streets of ferguson tonight as the national guard defends the police against a repeat of last night's chaos. on sunday night shots were fired at authorities. molotov cocktails were thrown at a police command center. looters targeted shops and restaurants. employees at one local mcdonald's hid in a storage room after the restaurant was overrun by a crowd. the police responded by firing teargas, smoke canisters and rubber bullets into the crowds. hundreds of officers were deployed in heavy duty riot gear. several journalists were threatened physically by police. tonight, that's the question. governor nixon declared a state of emergency and has ordered in

the national guard. community activists are organizing their own security forces. late today president obama announced that attorney general eric holder will travel to ferguson wednesday to meet with investigators and other community leaders. the president has again called for an end to the violence. >> we have all seen images oh of protesters and law enforcement in the streets. it's clear that the vast majority of people are peacefully protesting. what's also clear is that a small minority of individuals are not. i understand the passion and the anger that arises over the death of michael brown. giving into anger by looting or carrying guns and even attacking the police only serves to raise tensions and stir chaos. it undermines rather than advancing justice. >> nbc's craig melvin is on the ground in ferguson.

it's 7:00 eastern. what do you see coming out there? what do you see now? >> i think we've got a live look thousand for you, chris. there is a march right now. this has become customary about this time every night. this is the main drag here in ferguson. we are literally a block or two away from where the shooting happened. we have seen this crowd grow considerably over the past hour, hour and a half, two hours or so. so far i can tell you that the protest itself, the march itself has been peaceful. there was an incident -- i would say maybe 30 or 45 minutes ago. we were about a block down in front of the mcdonald's. this has been the epicenter for a lot of the action here. that mcdonald's, we should note, by the way, is closed. it has been closed for several hours. businesses on both sides boarded

up. they have been vandalized as have dozens of businesses on this street. we were in front of the mcdonald's because we were told around 5:00 there would be a meeting where they were going to essentially organize a peaceful protest. we expected the meeting after 5:00. there was a swarm of police cars that showed up in front of the mcdonald's. it became clear that the police were telling the protesters they could not stand there. they could not assemble there. they had to keep moving. at that point, i would say maybe a hundred or so folks gathered in front of the mcdonald's start to move across the street. we ended up in the parking lot of a bank. one of the principal organizers

at that point vowed to continue protesting throughout the night. also said they were prepared to get arrested. also said they were going to hold off because they didn't have the numbers at that point. there were more police officers than protesters. they wanted to wait until they got more numbers to continue to protest. it appears as if, chris matthews, we are in for another long night in ferguson. >> when do you see the trouble beginning? there was the peaceful proare test and then what the president called the bad crowd showed up. people looking for trouble. i know there is no curfew tonight. there is no law against coming out. what do you expect to happen later tonight? >> when the sun goes down is typically when it's started to get bad, so to speak. as you can see here, probably the sun is starting to go down. it's been a hot day in ferguson. north of 90 degrees. the temperature has also started

to go down as well. we have also been told that a number of the protesters come out after work. they come out after their jobs. they get off at 5:00, 5:30, 6:00 and they come here. one of the questions i asked over and over to the protesters is what does it take for this to come? what do you want to see? everyone i ask that question to, young and old alike, they all said the same thing. they will go home, stop. once there is some sort of punishment for the officer involved. whether it's charges, the indictment, termination all together. but they all said the same thing. based on those conversations, i tend to think we are going to continue to see this play out until something like that happens. also asked whether they thought the lifting of the curfew would have any measurable effect. no one i talked to thought that it would. >> thank you so much, craig

melvin in ferguson. charles ramsey is the philadelphia police commissioner. bernard parks is the former police chief of los angeles. commissioner ramsey, thank you very much for taking time from your duties tonight. i have a lot of respect for you. big city responsibilities. is there a best practices for dealing with a situation we face tonight following a night of chaos in ferguson? >> dwron if there is one best practice. you want to try to control things best you can, protect people. you want to protect property. do the best you can and keep things as low a temperature as you can while using a minimal amount of police presence and/or force. >> what would be the impact on the people, do you think, of seeing national guardsmen in fatigues. soldiers of america. not police forces but soldiers. will they be more respectful of them, do you think? >> it's difficult to say. i can understand why the

governor took the steps he took. my understanding is the forward will have a limited role in support of the county police and the state police. that's probably needed. it's been a week now we have had proare tests going on that have turned violent, unfortunately. you've got to bring peace and calm to the streets of ferguson. nothing much can be accomplished if you don't do that. so depending on the role of the national guard, i think it could be of help. >> the toughest thing about being a police officer, especially in a tough neighborhood is discernment and not profiling people, treating them as an identity based upon numbers or statistics but treating people as individuals. how do they discern the difference between are protes r protesters out there for let jit mat rights of citizenship and somebody out there to do harm to property or others? >> the most important thing are what are their actions? it's clear as it relates to the

crowd that's there to be positive and deal with the issue of demonstration. they are not the ones throwing fire bombs, creating havoc. the mere fact that you have protesters that carry signs or speak loud is not an indication that they are violating the law. you go by their actions and if you can surgically remove those who are creating the havoc and creating the criminal activity, you can allow that peaceful demonstration to continue. if it's so intertwined you can't distinguish the law breakers from the demonstrators then you have to call it unlawful assembly. no longer do you have a peaceful demonstration when the law breakers have taken it over. >> commissioner ramsey, what about the culture of police? philadelphia has had a long police culture, tough guys. is there a sense you have to change the lingo, practice on the crowd and say, please move

along, use please, use words that suggest we are not the enemy? are officers or officials in these cases taught to tell the troops to get out there and do it different tonight? or just do it the way you have always done it? >> i can only speak for philadelphia, washington and chicago. those are the three agencies i have served in. things have changed a long time ago. you respect people's right to protest. that's not an issuement we need to treat people respectfully at all times. even those that may not be respectful toward us. if we can establish communication. if we start off by treating people in a respectful manner then sometimes things don't escalate. often times things begin to escala escalate. deescalate to bring things back to a reasonable level so people can talk. people can demonstrate. we don't have people getting injured, businesses looted. those kind of things.

police spent a lot of time in training in the agencies i have been in and the ones i am aware of. working on deescalation and how to better handle crowds while respecting people's right to protest. >> commissioner, the old thing i grew up in philly was frank rizzo who was no friend to the african-american community at times. he believed you had to confront a situation with overwhelming force. does that today incite a crowd? the sign of militarization, as it's called? >> you get a sense of that from what the tenner of the crowd is. a show of force could be inciteful. depends when you bring it forward. you could have resources allocated out of the sight of the public only to be brought in if shg gets out of control. the key is not that you have the force, but how you choose to use it and what the timing of it, as it relates to then quelling a

problem. you don't let the problem get so far out of hand that you then have to use excessive amount of resources to bring it back. you certainly want to deal with issues as they confront you. one of the issues in los angeles is they had far greater success when we had situations that helped those who wanted to demonstrate. many times you will see in l.a. the police are escorting demonstrators through the street to allow them to demonstrate and not be in a traffic hazard. these are the things you learn as you go forward. force is necessary at times. just a matter of display of force unnecessarily could work against you. >> it's great having you on. thank you so much. you're a great group to have on, fellows. thank you very much. the big goal tonight and we all agree. nobody gets killed tonight.

that's a good goal. coming up, the autopsy commissioned by the brown family conclude that is michael brown was shot six times including twice in the head. one was at the top of his head. famed forensic pathologist will be here to talk about what the autopsy tells us and how prosecutor prosecutors could investigate the death. and the first african-american president is confronted with a racially charged incident. what's happening in ferguson reminds us we are not yet in a post racial america. this is "hardball," the place for politics. if hiring plumbers, carpenters and even piano tuners were just as simple? thanks to angie's list, now it is. we've made hiring anyone from a handyman to a dog walker as simple as a few clicks. buy their services directly at angieslist.com no more calling around. no more hassles. start shopping from a list of top-rated providers today.

angie's list is revolutionizing local service again. visit angieslist.com today. we'll be right back with more from ferguson, missouri. protesters have begun to march after a chaotic night. police in ferguson are insisting that the protesters keep moving. "hardball," back after this. king's hawaiian had faced, since robert taira opened his first bakery in a small hawaiian town.

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i met with the mother. she had the question any mother would have. was my child in pain? dr. baden shared in his opinion he did not suffer. >> welcome back to "hardball." that was attorney benjamin krump who represents the family of michael brown describing the question michael brown's mother had following an independent autopsy. this autopsy commissioned by the family revealed the unarmed 18-year-old was shot at least six times including twice in the head. a separate examination is being performed as a result of what the justice department calls extraordinary circumstances. the county of st. louis has conducted an earlier autopsy. the results haven't been released. nbc news confirmed with the st. louis medical examiner's office that michael brown was shot multiple times. that was the phrase from them.

joining me now forensic pathologist dr. cyril wecht. how much can we expect? all three together or the second one for the family? >> i don't believe anything more will be learned from the third autopsy. it's too bad the feds could not have moved a little bit faster and gotten together with the family and arranged for an observer participant to be there with dr. baden. each time a body is dissected, things are changed. the obfuscation after two is great. each time you dissect and examine bullet wounds, internal organ and tissue damage you are altering the picture and the ultimate diagnosis. what we have learned about the six wounds -- and, chris,

something that must be kept in mind with regard to the arm wounds, the arm moves in all kinds of positions. so supine, palm up or prone, palm down we call sup nation and pronation. you can't be sure what's front and back and how the shots were fired. with regard to the two shots to the head. two things come to my mind. number one, this young man is # 6' 6'3". it wasn't sniper fire from a tall tree. the young man was falling when the shots were fired. those are the shots that killed him. particularly the one that entered the top of the head and went into the brain. the shot entered around the eye and moved downward through the jaw and reentered in the superclavicular region above the clavicle. there is no way it could have been inflicted other than

michael brown falling, toppling down so that the trunk of his body is almost parallel to the ground and the shot comes in. it really has a parallel course by when the body is erect or lying on the autopsy table it appears to be perpendicular. there is a lot to be done. how many shots were fired? were the casings obtained to show where the shooter was, were there other shots fired? the clothing. i do believe that's important. but i think they were probably going to find shots fired beyond 18, 24 inches which is the distance of a handgun beyond which you don't get gunpowder residue or stippling patterns. we'll see how it plays out when the clothing analysis is released. >> can forensic science and autopsies tell us whether a person was brought down after the shots not to his head? if the shooter were acting in

self-defense, to shoot a person the fifth and six times after they already shot them three or four times to stop them if they were the aggressor. >> we know a shot to the brain in this case would not have allowed michaelle brown to engage in any kind of activity. it is almost certain that shot and most likely then the other shot because it struck him in the face, too, that those shots were fired at the end after the four shots to the arm. that's deeply regrettable. the four shots to the arm, while nobody would like to be shot in the arm, it would not result in death or even the loss of the limb. >> would it stop the assailant? would it stop a person in their tracks? remove them as a threat? >> no, no. shooting somebody in the arm would not stop him in his tracks. shooting him in the face and certainly a bullet into the brain is going to stop him pretty much in his tracks. there will be a little bit of

movement, momentum of the body. not anything of a prolonged, sustained, deliberate nature. >> hank you so much. thank you for coming on today. i thought you were great this morning. a missouri grand jury could be hearing evidence wednesday in the shooting death of michael brown. joining me now are two attorneys. mid win charles who hosts a raid program on wbls and philip hollow holloway. ms. charles, thanks for joining us. what do you think we'll get from the science about the nature of the incident? we don't know it's a crime yet. what can we tell? >> i think what we can tell from the autopsy, at least with the one we have by dr. baden is how michael brown died and the manner in which he died. that makes autopsies so important, so relevant when you're talking about criminal trials. they paint a picture. they let people know exactly what happened which is so important for justice.

that's the purpose of a trial. >> sure. >> when you start to look at the autopsy and you take it along with the one done by the medical examiner of ferguson as well as the one that will be done by the federal government, you put all three together and i don't think you will get disparity from the three different autopsies. once you put it together you start to put together pieces of the puzzle with respect to what happened on that day. that's what the people of ferguson want. it's what america wants. >> what do you think you could tell from the number of bullet holes, if you will, in the body of michael brown and perhaps the sequence in which they were fired? can you tell that he should have been no threat to anyone after being shot three, four times in the arm. therefore there was no justification for shooting him in the head if those were the subsequent bullets. what can we discern here? >> i'll tell you this. i have spoken with several nypd officers. i have one or two who do investigations at my law firm. they have said six bullets to

someone unarmed is a little bit unusual. usually you would fire off one shot. then you would determine that the person doesn't have a firearm or is not necessarily a threat. six bullets is excessive. i think the six bullets, the fact that he was unarmed as well as some of the witness statements that we have seen so far give us enough probable cause for at least an arrest. i think a lot of the problems we have seen now is that people have been conflating a trial with the standards for arrestment they are different. >> you said probable cause is based upon the number of bullets. >> for me, yes. the number of bullets and the fact that michael brown was unarmed. >> let me go to phil holloway. the same question to you. what can you discern from the evidence so far we have gotten in the two autopsies? >> i'm going to defer to dr. baden who said today we don't

know from the forensics he was able to achieve today with his autopsy. we don't know what happened in the critical moment when shots were fired. you've got to remember, police officers, whether or not somebody is armed or not, they are authorized to use deadly force if they believe they are in danger of losing life or limb. police officers are trained to shoot, to stop the threat. they are not limited to a number of rounds to achieve that goal. they will shoot until the threat, as they per ceo it to be, is eliminated. the question for investigators is what is the truth of the matter at the time the shots were fired? each and every one of the shots. muzzle to target. distance becomes an issue. these are things that a good investigator will look at. >> how do you discern between defending yourself against an immediate threat and anger which would cause you to keep shooting? >> a lot of it might be in the eye of the beholder. a good investigator, as i was saying, will follow the evidence objectively to the truth, whatever the truth may be.

we have already seen a lot of witness statements. we heard initially in the days following the shooting he was shot in the back. we now know that's not true. at the most he was shot in the top of the head. everything else was to the front. we know some of the eyewitness accounts aren't accurate. for what reason remains to be seen. a lot has left to be done. we need to fingerprint the car, look at the evidence. we need to look at shell casings, where did they land, what did the officer say? can it be corroborated? those are things to be looked at before we can get to the truth of the matter. >> what do you make of the phrases? there have been loaded language here. execution, broad daylight. >> yeah. >> as if this police officer, people truly believe a white police officer was driving along and saw a large black african-american fellow and decided just to shoot him. gun the guy down.

do you think that's what happened here? you are serious about believing the officer was wrong. at what level? he didn't like the guy's looks or what are you accusing him of now? >> i'm not going to try him before the evidence is in. >> but you want him arrested. >> of course. >> tell me why you've gotten that far with this thinking? >> because he killed an unarmed 18-year-old with six bullets. where i come from that's probable cause. i don't know why people want so much evidence. this is not a trial. from my perspective, especially when you listen to what dr. baden said where his head was somewhat bent, the bullet enterered through the top of his head. that was perhaps the fatal bullet. what's important is how the bullets came in. what was the number of the

bullet. >> what would you charge the officer with? >> at least manslaughter. reckless endangerment. officers have been arrested in new york at least who have been arrested for putting bullets into people. >> i want to get your thinking. if you were the prosecutor you would do it if you thought you could get a conviction. >> sure. >> so you think you could get a conviction as the prosecutor. >> right. remember, prosecutors don't arrest. the police do. we have to do this in order. >> you said a minimal charge of manslaughter. you must believe you could get a conviction for manslaughter. >> do i. >> already, based upon no follow up so far? nothing beyond what we heard in the first moment? >> no, nothing yet. we are still waiting. >> by the fact it's six bullets you believe the pan man should be convicted of manslaughter? >> i think you have enough to try him for manslaughter, absolutely. >> you said you think he should be convicted. >> i believe he should be convicted as well. you have enough evidence. >> already?

okay. what do you think of that assessment, mr. holloway? what you just heard? >> i think it's putting the cart way before the horse. dr. baden said his wounds were equally consistent with someone who might be charging at the officer as well as someone who might be surrendering to the officer. unless you have something to break rethe tie, six bullets in and of itself doesn't amount to the standard of probable cause. it's not enough to charge someone. >> i disagree. >> a lot hr has to be done. you have to be thorough, unbiased and objective investigating all shootings, especially one like this that's caught national attention. >> last word, ms. charles. >> i disagree. i think you have enough probable cause. when you are talking about convictions you need an entire picture. you need all pieces of the puzzle. at the very least for probable cause, to get an arrest you have it here. you have it. you have six bullets. you have a young man whose head was bending down and the bullet entered the top of the skull.

how is that? especially when you take into the fact how ferguson police handled this investigation. >> if you were defending this officer, what would be your defense? >> well, right now they seem to be doing a good job with respect to how they have been leaking out the information. >> what would your defense be? >> the defense would be he feared for his life and the fear was reasonable and that's why he shot him. >> thank you so much. please come back. i want to hear your views again. >> absolutely. >> mr. holloway, i'm sorry for being slow in getting your name. nice to meet you. this is a hot situation on national television. >> it is. >> up next, back to ferguson. once again protesters are taking to the streets. we'll follow the events tonight. we don't know where they will end up. this is "hardball," the place for politics. this is the first power plant in the country to combine solar and natural gas at the same location. during the day, we generate as much electricity

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chris hayes is on the ground in ferguson, missouri, now. he joins us with the latest. thanks for joining us. there you are. i was away last week. i'm trying to catch up with the story. i call this the period ingestion, not digestion. how do you see the story developing as the night goes on? >> there is a tactical shift tonight. a few big changes. one is they have early cut-off access to the main site of the protest. there is no vehicular access. there are checkpoints on either side. there are a few residents who are allowed to come through if they have homes or businesses here. they are allowing pedestrians to march if they keep moving. this is a policy put in place around 10:00 a.m. this morning. it's remained in effect. they are not allowing anyone to congregate on the street, certainly not the qt which is the epicenter of the protest.

we saw it in previous nights. they are allowing people to walk up and down the street protesting. they set up a media staging area that's 200 yards down. we are inside the perimeter. we are on the inside of that, as close to the q.t. as you could get at this point. curfew is off, so as the evening goes down, what happens? it is almost eerily quiet. we have people walking. hands up, don't shoot. it's kids, seniors, people very peaceably assembling. what's happened in each of the last few nights is when things have escalated it's escalated after dark. so right now we have a relatively quiet night. there's a thick tension in the air, particularly now with

even's knowledge that the national guard is in town. >> have you noticed a difference in the trouble-making crowd in exploiting the situation for criminal purposes? are they from out of town? older than you think. who's been breaking the windows and looting is this who's been doing that. >> there's been a lot of speculation about the trouble makers or the contingent of people looting. given the circumstances under which that's happening it's hard to interview them to find out who they are and if they are organizing. at this point, as far as i can tell from my journal lis tick perspective it's all speculation. i haven't seen a lot of interviews with folks who are looting. >> that would be a fifth amendment issue, i think. >> right. >> what's it like to loot. >> there is a lot of rhetoric

about the small contingent. it's undeniably the case that there is a large group of people outraged and angry, exercising first amendment rights. even, i would say, in the form of civil disobedience. people were violating the curfew. it's obviously violating the law. they were violating the curfew in a peaceful manner. other people are breaking into stores. you could see it last night. i saw a fire set in a market. it's been difficult. we have one report who saw someone fire a gun. there's been reports last night on a key incident. we'll have more details in my show about molotov cocktails being thrown. people who participated in the march in question which precipitated the heavy response right near the police command center.

i talked to three clergy members who said it was a peaceful march and there were no molotov cocktails. it's very difficult amidst these circumstances to separate fact from fiction, what's going on. there is a small unspecified number of people acting in a way that's frankly not lawful and violent. how many there are or what the motivation, who they are is completely unknown at the moment. >> we have reporters like you. thank you for being out there. you will be live tonight at all in. we'll continue to watch what's happening in ferguson now tonight. up next, the scenes we have seen so far looked like something from the civil rights era when the dogs were out. why is it still happening 50 years later? this is "hardball," the place for politics. a body at rest tends to stay at rest...

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welcome back to "hardball." a new poll shows sharp racial divisions in reaction to the shooting. african-americans are far more likely than whites to say michael brown's shooting raises important issues about race itself. 80% of blacks say it does. just 37% of whites agree. 65% of blacks polled say the police response to the shooting has gone too far. again, fewer whites at 33% agree with them. americans elected an african-american president twice now. yet division is still cut along racial lines in response to things like the ferguson shooting. eugene robinson is with the washington post and msnbc contributor. michelle ber nartd from the bernard center for women, politics, & public policy. gene, i want to start with you. the reason we believe as almost a religion in diversity is we

know there are different perspectives. if you go on television with white guys you will be ignored and should be. we don't know the american experience. >> right. >> we don't know the experience as a group. tell me your reaction to the whole thing. i think there is a need for discernment right now. what's going on? >> you know, why is this happening now when, as you mentioned, there is an african-american president. there is an african-american attorney general ordering a new autopsy and is on his way to ferguson. the police commander on the scene, the head of the state highway patrol is an african-american. yet there is a civil unrest that is reminiscent of the '60s. i think the reason isn't that complicated. some african-americans have done extremely well over the last five decades and moved into the middle class and beyond. assuming positions of power, influence and wealth undreamed

of in previous decades. a large minority african-americans haven't done well. in fact, i would argue are worse off now than they were back then. there is anger and frustration are at the feeling. but the deck is stacked against people. i think african-americans in general recognize the situation. i'm not sure white americans are aware that, in fact, black america is not a monolith. >> i agree. i'm a white guy and i think there are elements of social justice here sh not just criminal justice. not just what the cop did or shouldn't have done or whether there is murder here. it's the social reality that people in ferguson have the unemployment rate through the roof. an 18-year-old kid. he was going to hab go to vocational school. we don't know his prospects. they probably weren't great. a lot of the frustration is about that. not whether you hate the cops or not. i think. >> i think that's a large part

of it. i think the greater story in looking at what's happened to this young man, what happened to trayvon martin and what we see happening to so many kids, i think i will summarize are it easily by what my son said to me. he's 11 years old, outside tonight. he said, is somebody going to shoot me is this my daughter watched the news and said, why is it they only do this to black people? >> what did you say? >> i didn't have an answer for her. i don't have an answer that's palatable to look my children in the face and say there are people in this country who not only do not like african-americans but they despise black men. there is a war on black boys in this country. there is a war on african-american men. i think the fact that president obama has repeatedly had to stand up and look at members of congress and say i am the president of the united states. get over it. it enrages people. we are seeing the economic effects, the effects of a

horrible public education system that discriminates against our kids on the basis of race and their zip code. things are getting much, much worse. it's a deplorable situation that the united states which is supposed to be the greatest nation on earth sits back and allows black boys to be murdered. >> i can't let you go without your response to that. how much of this is about profiling and prejudgment. when you judge an african-american kid as dangerous for all kinds of reasons of history, numbers, statistics, whatever you're thinking about and the larger question of poverty leading in many cases to crime. the situation with that is the only hope to get ahead. >> it's clear to me both are involved. michelle is right. i have had that talk with my sons. we discussed it on your show. she had the talk with her son about what to do when you're confronted with police and you happen to be a black man. it's different from tex appearance that other americans have in dealing with the police.

the relationship with the police is different. we get profiled and that's the truth. michelle said also zip code. zip code is a factor here. the social realities on the ground in ferguson, on the ground in a lot of low income african-american communities around the country are distinct, are different, are worsening and do contribute, in my view to the anger, especially and the frustration that we see stemming from this incident. so, yes, it has to do with profiling. i think the social realities are there. you can't ignore them. >> i wish we didn't listen so well in crisis, and listened more at other times from you folks, i mean you two. i don't mean blacks. i mean you two. sometimes we do the right thing when there is no other alternative. i think churchill said that. america does the right thing when there is no alternative. >> this will turn into genocide if it doesn't stop.

>> thank you, michelle and gene. we'll be right back. president obama deploys attorney general eric holder out to ferguson. it's a federal case. the president's response is ethics. this is "hardball," the place for politics. there's a saying in our family. you can do anything... if you keep a good head on your shoulders. that's why we use head & shoulders shampoo and conditioners. it keeps us 100% flake free. so i just have gorgeous hair. head & shoulders. the world's #1 dandruff shampoo. ♪

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don't start humira if you have an infection. [ woman ] take the next step. talk to your doctor and visit humira.com. this is humira at work. we're back. as i reported earlier, president obama has announced today that attorney general eric holder will travel to ferguson, missouri, on wednesday, it's the second time the president has addressed the situation in ferguson, himself. howard fineman, msnbc political analyst, and jean cummings at bloomberg. he's experienced being watched in department stores, being trailed around in a way that a white person wouldn't. despite his upbringing, his education, everything. he still gets treated like a possible danger to the clothing store manager, whoever else, the clerk on the floor. so he has some experience, probably catching a cab in new york, uptown, he's probably had

some of that experience, like we've all seen happen to african-americans. so he does have that. he also is, look in the mirror, he's african-american. he's part of the community and does know he's part of it and his children will face it. there's empathy that comes through like today. >> it definitely does come true. after trayvon martin, the president talked about how he experienced people crossing the street when they saw him coming. all those things you speak of, he has lived. he also has lived through now three cases where the issue of race has been brought up in this criminal justice sense. you had the -- >> he doesn't bring it up. the news seems to come to him. >> it does come to him. >> yeah. >> but back in 2009, when he said james crowley, the police officer in boston, had acted stupidly when he erroneously arrested henry louis gates at his own home, the president looked back on that and said i should have calibrated my

remarks. he did today. >> today. i thought it was interesting how he showed discernment about the whole thing. the guy is unbelievable sometimes. >> he also pointed out that he dealt with this, as he said he said, before you guys knew how to pronounce my name and when i still had black hair, i was a state legislator in illinois, and i dealt with these issues. he dealt with racial profiling. he dealt with the need for the police interrogations to be recorded. this has actually been a fairly longstanding, public and legal and political concern with him for decades. it's really the first and real he, frankly, only thing that he really did in springfield when he was a state legislator. >> constitutional rights on the street corner. >> yes. he's a constitutional lawyer and he also is the president and he did make the -- remind people that this is both peace and justice and order on the streets of ferguson. >> save and develop your thoughts. we'll be back on this tomorrow night. big story for our country. not a good country but a learning experience.

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let me finish tonight with this unhappy situation in missouri because let's face it, it's not about missouri, not just missouri. i think it's important both for those up close and those of us at a distance to see the competing realitiy ies at work this national conflict. one is the killing of michael brown, itself. was it the case of a police officer acting not only defensively, but appropriately? was his response proportional and limited to the perceived

threat? was it? the other reality is the question, do young people like michael brown suffer an injustice that atakes them early in their youth that says you ain't going anywhere in this world, you're going to live in this neighborhood and die here, and in between, nothing good is either going to come your way or hit you as a possibility. is there another better word for that than injustice? is there? i know all the focus right now, all the pressure, all the heat is now on the police officers involved. or the police generally in this country. perhaps it should be. but this is as good a time as any to deal with the job we give some police in the country that is stocked with injustice. when we assign blame, let's not ignore the way the world really is, the way economic opportunity is really shared in thus country of ours, how unevenly it is shared. it is not the cop who decides how much money a family has, what jobs or life opportunities are passed out to the young people of ferguson, what neighborhood kids get to grow up and live in, what hopes they can hold when they two to bed at

night. no, it's the policeman's often lonely, often dangerous job to keep a just order, yes, a tight lid on an unjust world. that doesn't work at an eight-hour shift. this isn't just about the cops, my fellow americans, it's about our country. if you want lasting peace and not just a tighter lid on injustice, we've got to lead our young people to productive paths. we need to find them jobs, need to teach them the joy of hope. that's "hardball" for now. thanks for being with us. "all in with chris hayes" starts right now. good evening from ferguson, missouri. i am chris hayes and at this moment, the sun is setting here in ferguson, missouri. we're in the midst of a situation that could be best described as peaceful, but eerie and tense. let me tell you the latest. we're on west floreson avenue, the site of protests, largely peaceful protests but also some