replace the local prosecutor, a 12-member grand jury could begin hearing evidence as early as tomorrow. and ten days after the fatal shooting of unarmed teen michael brown, the officer who shot and killed him, darren wilson, is still on paid administrative leave. still, a number of questions remain unanswered, including, will the state-imposed curfew remain lift tonight? who are the people throwing molotov cocktails and firing shots in the streets of ferguson? and what, if anything, can calm the tensions in ferguson? joining me now from the st. louis suburb of ferguson, missouri, is msnbc's chris hayes. chris, you had quite a night last night. things really, again, got out of hand. i want to show a little bit of what you experienced on the streets of ferguson last night. take a look. >> we've been out here since the live show at 7:00 p.m. central. and -- whoa, whoa. >> hey, hey, hey. watch out, chris.

>> protesters chucking rocks at us. >> we are telling the true story. >> people are angry, man. they're really angry. >> and chris, obviously a lot of anger out there. did you get a sense of what people are angry specifically at the media over? you could hear people yelling tell the true story. what are people, in your view, angry about? >> is so people, i think, have gotten -- all sides of this conflict have gotten angrier at the media as time has gone on. i think the police are furious at the media because they feel like the media presence is inciting the worst elements. they feel like the media is giving them a hard time. frankly, they don't like people recording them while they're doing their job all the time. and i think some of the protesters are angry at the media because they feel like the story isn't being told. i think some of the protesters feel like people are too uncritically accepting the police's line. i think also there's just this sense that no amount of story

telling by the media can properly express people's feeling of just complete impotent rage at the fact it's nine days in and the person that shot and killed michael brown is on administrative leave. michael brown is going -- his body has just completed its third autopsy. there are no charges filed. it just seems more and more outrageous as the days go by. and the mood here is tense. it's not -- it's a bad scene down here. it just is. i think when i first came down here, it didn't have the kind of toxicity in the air it feels like it has right now. everything seems locked in this cycle. but people are angry because fundamentally they feel that justice hasn't been done. and that anger is kind of directed in all sorts of different directions. >> you know, chris, when i watch -- and i'm watching this, i'm watching you every night. you're walking around the streets, trying to tell this story, and you're showing a lot of the town, the city. you know what's weird for me?

i don't see the presence, and what i guess i'm used to having lived in big cities. where is the mayor? it feels almost like complete uncontrolled chaos. am i just getting a sense maybe because of the limited view i have here in new york? >> yeah, i would say there's sort of two truths here. one is that i could get in the car from here and in five minutes be at a craft brewery and a beautiful little park by the water. you could go, you know, ten minutes up that way and you're just in side streets. folks are just in small single-family homes and barbecuing on the weekends. the idea that this looks like ukraine or whatever, we are talking about a four-block stretch of ferguson at this point. so that's a sort of appropriate and important context. in terms of the mayor being awol, yes, 100%. a guy by the name of james

knowles iii. i've been trying to get in contact with him and book him for the show. given the fact he's the mayor of what is now the most famous or infamous suburb of america at this point, after eight days of this, you would think you would hear from him. it's striking to me that there has been all of the representations of local authorities have been law enforcement. the mayor hasn't been out there. the county prosecutor. charlie duley has been out there. but he's a lame duck. >> it is very strange. that vacuum of power has been very evident. stay safe, man. thank you for all the great reporting. be sure to watch more of chris hayes and his live coverage from ferguson tonight on "all in" at 8:00 p.m. eastern here on msnbc. one of the questions surrounding the response to the police shooting of unarmed teen michael

brown has been, as we just asked, where is the mayor? well, he did appear on this network a few hours ago. this is just a little bit of what he had to say. >> there's not a racial divide in the city of ferguson. >> according to who? is that your perspective, or do you believe that's the perspective of african-americans in your community? >> that is the perspective of all residents in our city, absolutely. the vast majority of my community, and i now put that number in the 95th percentile, is absolutely supportive of what we've been doing and what we're going to do going forward. >> maria nadal is a missouri state senator who represents ferguson. she was one of the residents tear gassed while peacefully protesting last week. thank you so much for being here. i've been watching your appearances on this network and have been astounded by the real frankness you've been able to bring to the conversation. did you -- i don't know if you had a chance to hear what the mayor of ferguson just said. he said there's no racial divide in ferguson. he says the majority of people in ferguson are quite happy with

what the leadership has done. would you agree with those assessments? >> i would not agree with that. and i would tell you that i've been on the ground since day one, and i've been with all of my constituents, listening to their frustrations. mostly the frustrations of young people who feel as though they are michael brown. just being at the wrong place, wrong time, and it could have been them. so everyone that i'm hearing, they feel as though there is almost a pressure against them. they are feeling as if they're being silenced. when we've been tear gassed on several occasions, they feel as though their first amendment right has been taken away from them. i had a man yesterday literally who was crying in my arms, and i was holding him for a very long time because he wanted to exercise one of the greatest guarantees that we have in this nation, which is the first amendment. and he didn't want that to be taken away from him.

he wanted to express himself in the very basic way that everyone is guaranteed. >> and state senator, you know, just in watching this from here, from here in new york and watching what's going on, i've seen you. i've seen state senator antonio french. i've seen claire mccaskill. i've seen a few leaders. but do you also have that sense that the city leadership itself is absent? that the mayor is not visible? and what do you -- how do you explain disconnect between the elected leadership in ferguson, which is entirely white, and this population, which is majority african-american? >> well, i will tell you, there is one african-american who's elected to city council who has been at the ground level. he's been speaking with the same constituents as what i have. and i will tell you there are two worlds. it's a tale of two cities, frankly. you have the mostly white community and the black

community. and there are a lot of people who like to speak in terms of everything is fine, this is just one of the few incidences we have. but this has been a long time brewing. and there are a lot of people in this community who have been abused, who have been intimidated, who have been forced to do things that they don't want to do. a great example is a six-month pregnant woman who was gassed the same day i was. she was forced face down to the ground. the police officer said, get down, face down, on the ground. she's six months pregnant. and that's the way basically my community has been treated, not just in the last 11 days, but for quite a long time. and so i have young people who are willing to give up their lives, joy. they're saying to themselves and to me and others, you know, it's amazing i'm even living to 21 years old. i don't give -- i can't say that, but they don't give a lot of credence to the life that

they could have, and they're willing to give up their lives for justice. i'm trying to redirect that energy into a very positive way. i want my constituents to be able to go to city council meetings and demand justice in different ways. we just need to change how things are being done. we need to make sure that the police department is reflective of what this community looks like. we need to be honest, most of all. there's a perception that people like to portray, which is not reality. and we have to demand the truth. we have to demand that everything that is going on comes to light. and i don't think that this community is going to stop fighting or stop protesting until they see transparency. and they haven't gotten that quite yet. they're just not happy with the chief of police as well as the mayor in many circumstances. the mayor has been -- he's been out. he's a friend of mine. but there's some things i just

don't disagree with the way he's operated. but he is a friend. and the only thing that i can press upon him as well as other leaders who have been absent at ground zero is come listen to the people, come listen to the victims, come listen to the hundreds of people who call themselves michael brown. again, at any given time, they can also be michael brown. so that's what i implore them to do. this is ground zero. and it's pretty devastating to this community right now, to have this negative light. >> yeah, indeed. you know, there's so much more i want to talk with you about. hopefully you will come back. thank you very much. >> thank you, joy. >> all right. as we've been reporting, last night's chaos resulted in nearly 80 arrests along with injuries to four police officers. while a small number of people face more serious charges of unlawful use of a weapon and interfering with an officer, most of last night's arrestees

were charged with refusal to disperse and were released from jail this morning. >> it's bad out there. i mean, the cops just -- they're out of control. they're treating us like we're nobody. we're just out there trying to support the cause. >> and while many of the people arrested last night say the police are overreacting, officials say there is a contingent of protesters showing up every night and deliberately creating havoc. there's also a number of community members who are trying to keep the peace and organization the real protests. anthony ellis is one of them. he lives in the ferguson area. anthony, thank you for being here. >> hi. how are you? >> i'm very well. thank you. i really appreciate being able to talk with you. tell us, as you're organizing these protests, what are the demands? what is it that protesters like yourself, the people who are marching day in and day out in ferguson, what do you want to see happen? >> we basically want to see that darren wilson be brought to justice. we want to the see the constituents and the leaders of

ferguson to come out and speak to the people and let them know what's going on instead of just keeping everything hush-hush from the community. >> do you feel like the mayor of ferguson has been visible? have you seen him out on the street? >> i've seen the mayor in a press interview. that's about it. the mayor has not been on this side of ferguson, compared to the other side of ferguson. >> and let's talk about cap pain ron johnson. he obviously has become a central figure for a lot of people, particularly media, but also there on the ground. do you get the sense that he is controlling events on the ground in that town? >> i commend captain johnson for the things he's doing, because he's worked with me ever since the first night he came on duty. he's helped me get people back without being any type of violence, with the protesters and all that. like a majority of the protesters, the protesters are coming in peace. but we have people from the

outskirts of st. louis county, outside of ferguson who are doing a majority of the rioting and looting. >> and sir, let me ask you, i don't know if you had a chance to hear president obama's remarks yesterday about what's happening in ferguson. if you did have a chance to hear them, what with your thoughts, what was your reaction? >> i think mr. obama's doing a great job. i think he's doing the right -- going down the right path of trying to find by assigning the justice department to come in and oversee this investigation. because like robert. he's not going to give a fair opinion of darren wilson due to the fact darren wilson has been a law enforcement officer. he's bringing indictments to the st. louis county prosecutors office every day to have people indicted for him. >> right. so you don't trust the local prosecutor to complete this investigation? in your mind, you don't think

justice will come through the local prosecutor? >> no, i don't. >> okay. let's talk just a little bit -- since you are leading the actual real protest that we're seeing, which are again the majority of what's happening there, what do you think is changing at night? why do you suppose there is so much tension and violence once the sun goes down? >> because a lot of the people that's coming out at night besides the protesters that really want to find justice are the people that are opportunists, trying to commit chaos with the local police department. >> all right. well, anthony ellis, i really appreciate you being here, a ferguson resident and somebody leading the peaceful, positive protest there. thank you very much. >> thank you, ma'am. >> all right. coming up in our continuing coverage of the michael brown shooting, we'll discuss the president's response to the situation in ferguson, missouri, including some of the criticism he's taking. and we'll ask, is it fair? but first, it's been ten days

since michael brown died, and his family and the entire community are still seeking justice. >> these people are crying out for justice. nobody is saying be unfair to the police officer. he has his right to due process. we're a nation of laws. but what we are saying is be fair to michael brown's family as well. so factors like diet can negatively impact good bacteria? even if you're healthy and active. phillips digestive health support is a duo-probiotic that helps supplement good bacteria found in two parts of your digestive tract.

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it's one of the biggest questions in the shooting death of michael brown. will the police officer who fatally shot the unarmed teen face criminal charges? we now know a missouri grand jury could hear evidence in the case as early as tomorrow. also tomorrow, attorney general eric holder arrives in ferguson after meeting with the president at the white house about the situation yesterday and informing president obama that

he planned to go and personally oversee the department of justice's investigation. right now the fbi is conducting an investigation into possible civil rights violations in the case. let me bring in pamela meanes, and lisa bloom. i'm going to start with you, lisa. we have this information from nbc news that was given by the st. louis county prosecuting attorney. it says, quote, yes, we are attempting to start grand jury proceed thgs week. we do not comment on ongoing investigations. charges can be for murder in the first down to voluntary manslaughter or no true bill, which means no charges. and there's no timeline for the case. looking at what you know now, lisa, what is possible and what is likely in terms of potential charges for this officer? >> well, i think that's correct. certainly murder. if you believe the story taken together of the three witnesses who tell similar stories, they tell a story that mike brown was running away and that he was

shot as he was trying to get away, that he turns and had his hands in the air and he was then shot. one of them says is he specifically said, i don't have a gun. and then he was shot. if, indeed, the officer shot under those circumstances, that would be sufficient for firs first-degree murder. the lesser charge would be manslaughter. >> and pamela, one of the things that's made this case difficult to analyze is the fact there has been selective leaking, that you've had some information come out but not all the information come out. and eric holder, the u.s. attorney general, is headed down to ferguson tomorrow. one of the things the attorney general's office said is this. the selective release of sensitive information we've seen in this case so far is troubling to me. no matter how others perceive their separate inquiries, the justice department has to preserve the integrity of the investigation. do you feel that releasing information like that video that's not related to the shooting but that shows the allegations that this young man michael brown stole something from a store, do you think that the investigation itself has

been compromised in a way that will make it impossible to pursue justice? >> i actually think that it has been compromised in a way. i don't know that it makes it impossible for there to be justice in the case. but if you look at the release of the information, the lack of information that was released on the shooter, it gives an air or an appearance of impropriety and makes you not trust the process. it further inflames the community to make them believe here's another example of why we can't trust this department, this county to nvlinvestigate t case. >> and lisa, there have already been calls for the prosecutor to recuse himself from the case. people saying essentially that even from his own family, having his father been a police officer, killed in the line of duty, that he really can't continue to try this case. one such organization, the mound city bar soergs, has release an official statement calling for him to step aside, saying the community is concerned about the lack of transparency, the lack

of candor. there have been lawsuits filed. there's a sense of real distrust. in a situation like this where police are -- where a police officer is the person potentially being charged, is recusal something you normally see happen? >> recusal absolutely should happen here, joy. one of the most important things i can say is the community is crying out for charges to be filed. but charging is only the beginning. charging is only as good as the integrity and the enthusiasm of the prosecutor who's bringing those charges. but for us trial lawyers, that's just the beginning. then we have to put together a case. we have to bring it not only to a grand jury but ultimately to a jury of 12 people in that community who will convict or not. and we saw in the trayvon martin case how the case fell apart because the prosecutors didn't argue the evidence effectively. everybody thought it was a wonderful victory when george zimmerman was charged. but ultimately, it ended in an acquittal and more demonstrations and more frustration in the community because the prosecutors didn't

put the case away at trial. and i'm concerned that we could be seeing a replay of that here. >> and lisa makes, i think, the spot-on point. this prosecutor would still be the person, pamela, that would have to argue before the grand jury, would he not? >> yes, he would. but joy, can i say this? and i'll say this to lisa. i think because of the lack of trust this community has, it could be anyone sitting if that seat right now. it's not really sometimes about the person. it's about the damage that has been done to the trust of this community. this community doesn't believe that any portion of it is able to police itself. and so that's the reason why the national bar association is calling for not just for the justice department to come in and invest alongside with the county but to actually take over this investigation. and i know we're asking for something that may be a first-case impression, but this is an example of a case where we're seeing that the justice department needs to come in not just to restore the integrity of

the process, but lisa is correct because the process doesn't just involve whether you get an indictment with a grand jury. it's about whether you can trust the verdict when it is done. and i believe that this community, if it stays in this location, will not believe any report that comes out of it. >> and lisa, is there precedent for the federal authorities to skip ahead of any potential trial. >> normally they let the state go first. there's a good reason for that. the penalties for murder and manslaughter are significantly greater than a violation of civil rights charges, which is about ten years. v having said that, there's no reason the federal government can't take the lead in the investigation. i emphasize take the lead. not just work alongside the locals, which is what we've heard, but take the lead. they can then share whatever information, witness statements, evidence, ballistics, et cetera with the local shorts. let the locals go first if they choose to do that. then they can go second. there's nothing wrong with that kind of a procedure.

>> all right. lisa bloom, pamela meanes, we hope you'll come back. we'll be right back with more from the ground in ferguson. the summer of this. the summer that summers from here on will be compared to. where memories will be forged into the sand. and then hung on a wall for years to come. get out there, with over 50,000 hotels at $150 dollars or less. expedia. find yours. hard it can be...how ...to breathe with copd? it can feel like this. copd includes chronic bronchitis and emphysema. spiriva is a once-daily inhaled... ...copd maintenance treatment... ...that helps open my airways for a full 24 hours. you know, spiriva helps me breathe easier. spiriva handihaler tiotropium bromide inhalation powder does not replace rescue inhalers for

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we've got breaking news from the pentagon. just moments ago, rear admiral john kirby spoke out about the military grade weapons we saw police using during that standoff in ferguson, missouri. >> the ferguson police department since 2007 has -- defense logistics agency has transferred to them two humvees, one generator, and one cargo trailer. to the ferguson police department. now, in all of st. louis county, over that same period of time, which includes ferguson, six pistols, 12 rifles, 15 weapon sights. >> that's a story we're definitely going to follow up on. now to social media. it's turning out to be a powerful tool for keeping you close to the michael brown case.

one outcome is that you're experiencing much more empathy for what people of color regularly face when confronted by police. as you watch journalists get arrested, like this photographer, along with every day citizens, complaints by black men about police mishandling seem more real. you're calling it, quote, that big part of the black experience that white people don't want to appropriate, unlike the fun parts like hip-hop. which leads us to african-american rappers getting active in ferguson. rapper talib kwali was one of the first to support brown. after last night's police clashes, he tweeted, stay strong ferguson. rapper nelly was also in ferguson last night. and one protesters, who was arrested in st. louis on monday. now, she might be the hero of the moment. this 90-year-old holocaust survivor must have looked extremely dangerous with her cane, but to you her arrest was absurd. you sent tweets like this one. quote, i'm pretty sure we're

regressing. she said this about her arrest. i've been doing this since i was a teenager. i don't think -- i didn't think i would have to do it when i was 90. we need to stand up today so people won't have to do this when they're 90. you can join the conversation with fellow reiders on twitter, facebook, instagram and msnbc.com and keep telling us what's important to you. now this news. voters head to the polls today in alaska. here's more of what's at stake. shopping online is as easy as it gets. wouldn't it be great if hiring plumbers, carpenters and even piano tuners were just as simple? thanks to angie's list, now it is. we've made hiring anyone from a handyman to a dog walker as simple as a few clicks. buy their services directly at angieslist.com no more calling around. no more hassles.

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♪ ♪ [ male announcer ] during the cadillac summer's best event, lease this 2014 ats for around $299 a month. hurry in -- this exceptional offer ends soon. ♪ we're watching several new developments this hour for the fatal shooting of michael brown. attorney general eric holder sr. set to arrive in ferguson, missouri, tomorrow to meet with fbi officials on the investigation. that's also when the grand jury could start hearing evidence

against darren wilson, the officer who fatally shot brown. it will decide whether to charge the officer with a crime. and the ferguson school district is keeping schools closed for the rest of the week because of the continuing unrest. school was supposed to start last thursday. in 2004, 21-year-old michael bell was shot and killed by police in wisconsin. police claim that bell, who was handcuffed at the time, tried to grab an officer's gun. within 48 hours, police cleared themselves of any wrongdoing. but his father refused to give up. after six years and an independent investigation that proved that the officer who thought his gun was being grabbed had actually caught it on a broken car window, police settled a wrongful death lawsuit with bell's family for $1.75 million. but the story doesn't end there. bell's father used that money to lobby for more police accountability, paying for full-page ads like this one in national publications, including "the new york times" and "usa today." the hard work paid off.

in april of this year, wisconsin became the first state in the nation to pass a law that mandates police-related deaths be reviewed by an outside agency instead of police essentially investigating themselves. joining me now is retired air force lieutenant michael bell sr. thank you for being here. >> thank you for having me, joy. and that's lieutenant colonel, not lieutenant. >> lieutenant colonel, let's make sure we get those right. thank you for that correction. sir, i want to talk to you about first of all your -- when you look at what's happening right now in ferguson, what are your thoughts, your overall thoughts on the conduct of the police in terms of the investigation? >> well, the first thing i have to wonder is if it didn't get this type of attention, what kind of investigation would have occurred down there in missouri? you know, in my own case, we didn't get that type of investigation. we had to -- i approached a number of agencies is. i approached the u.s. attorney.

i approached the governor of wisconsin at that time, governor doyle. i approached the attorney general for the state of wisconsin. and i have had no support whatsoever. i contacted almost everybody within the nation, and no support whatsoever. so we had to take it upon ourselves to get our own attention because that was the only way we could apply force to what happened to our son. >> you actually wrote an essay in "politico" magazine. i want to read a little bit of what you wrote. it hasn't been lost on a lot of people that what happened to your son obviously happened to a young man who is not african-american. this is what you wrote. if a blond-haired, blue-eyed boy that was my son michael can be shot in the head under a street light with his hands cuffed behind his back in front of five eyewitnesses, including his mother and sister and his father was a retired air force lieutenant colonel who flew in three wars for his country, that's me, and i still couldn't get anything done about it, then joe the plumber and javier the roofer ant going to be able to do anything about it either.

do we have a systemic problem, in your view, with police essentially not being accountable for their actions, even when those actions result in someone's death? >> that's absolutely right. we brought in researchers. we put a team together. i got to reach out to my team and say hello, guys. one of our researchers, we looked in the state of wisconsin. since 1885, since police and fire commissions were formed in the state, we tried to find an unjustified shooting. with couldn't. in 129 years. and that was a ruling by either a police department, an inquest jury, or police and fire commission. in 2005, we did find a ruling in the city of milwaukee, a shooting of a man, his name was javier predo. at first the police department ruled itself justified. an inquest jury said it was justified. but citizens brought forward additional information to da, and eventually the da charged that officer. so in 129 years, we found

approximately one instance when an officer was held accountable. >> it took you many, many, many years to get the law passed that you did advocate for in wisconsin. what is your level of hope that a similar law to the one that you really almost forced to get passed in wisconsin could be passed elsewhere in the country? and do you think we need it on a national level? >> absolutely. if you take a look at our "usa today" ad, we state in there clearly that what we were asking for in the state of wisconsin could be a model. remember, when that ad went out, we had three parts to our request. number one, if a police officer takes a life, let's make sure that police officer was in a clear frame of mind to use deadly force. right now there's no checks and balances to make sure that alcohol wasn't in the officer's bloodstream or that painkillers might have been in the officer's bloodstream. we asked for that, we didn't get it. we asked for an outside investigation. we believe police departments shouldn't be reviewing themselves. essentially, if an aircraft crashes for an aviation company

like delta or something like that, they don't review themselves. everybody wouldn't believe if they said we didn't do anything. the national transportation safety board comes in there and does the review. the last thing we asked for was that a high-ranking elected official appoint a professional review of that shooting to make sure that everything was sound. one of the things that we found that there was no way that we could actually pin the responsibility on somebody because it was so vague. it was the chief of police or the mayor or whatever, but when we started putting pressure directly on elected officials, that's when we had something happen. >> yeah, that sounds pretty reasonable to me. lieutenant colonel michael bell, sorry for your loss, sir, and thank you very much. >> thank you very much. >> and now, three things to know this tuesday. the cease-fire between israel and hamas fell apart today, hours before it was set to expire. both sides returned to the exchange of air strikes and rocket fire, and the peace talks in cairo, well, those are

falling apart too. the palestinian health ministry says the death toll in gaza is now 2,016. the israeli army says 64 soldiers have been killed as well as three israeli civilians. iraqi forces have launched an operation to retake the city of tikri tirt. yesterday, with u.s. air support, iraqi and kurdish forces were able to regain control of the mosul dam, a critical infrastructure site. here's the pentagon press secretary moments ago. >> this is, as i said before, a fight that the iraqi government and the iraqi armed forces, the iraqi people have to fight. we can help and assist where we can, but this is ultimately for them to fight. and the first hearing in the case against texas governor rick perry is set for friday. perry was indicted on two felony counts of abuse of power after allegedly trying to force a district attorney to resign

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we have got to make sure that we are able to distinguish between peaceful protesters who may have some legitimate grievances and maybe long-standing grievances and those who are using this tragic death as an excuse to engage in criminal behavior. >> that was president obama speaking yesterday from the white house about the situation in ferguson, missouri. and not all the responses were positive. some were saying president didn't show enough passion. michael dyson is a professor of sociology at georgetown, university. charles ogletree is the executive director of the charles hamilton houston institute for race and justice at harvard university.

thank you, both, for being here. one of the reason i wanted the two of you here is you both actually know president obama before he was president obama. you know the person. i want to start with you, professor ogletree, because you were on our air yesterday. you were talking about the fact that the president needed to speak more about what was happening in ferguson and he needed to show sort of his human face on it. do you feel he did that yesterday? >> i think he came close, but i don't think he's made it yet. i have been close to president obama since he was a student at harvard, more than 20 years ago, and his wife michelle obama as well. i think that the president has to show leadership around not just the world, but the country, around the universe. think of what george w. bush did with the beating of rodney king in the early 1990s. he was there. he sent wayne bud out to make sure that police who were bea beating the black men were treated fairly but also prosecuted if they violated the

law. here's a case where it's clear the police officer who shot michael brown broke the law, no question about that. here's a situation where no indictment has come down yet. it should be coming down soon. and i hope the person will have a great lawyer, a trial, i hope the jury will be fairly selected. he may even be acquitted. but he needs to be charged. he needs to be arrested. he needs to go forward. i think that is kind of thing that anybody should say. it's not just because a black 18-year-old was killed. but anybody who has this happen to them, unarmed with the hands up, saying, don't shoot me, you knead to have something happen to this police officer, and it needs to happen quickly. >> you know, michael, the difference, of course, george herbert walker bush was not african-american. he was not the first black president and not under the many, many constrainted that this president is under. do you feel that the president is under so many constraints that it makes it impossible to really show passion on this issue, or do you think he has

more latitude than maybe the white house or president thinks? >> well, let me begin by saying that like charles, i've known barack obama since '92. the professor and i have joined together in defense of this president against vicious attacks on him. so i know that the black obama fans will go haywire because we're offering criticism and some pushing of the president. but i think he has far more latitude than he's exercised so far. he's got the bully pull bit. be a bully in the pulpit. but don't bully black people. yesterday was a low moment in the obama presidency because he distracted away from the facts of the case. a white police officer armed to the teeth with a gun has killed an unarmed black youth. the president turned this into a referendum, if you will, on internal machinations of black

criminality and the politics of black respectability as opposed to the facts at hand. he's such a brilliant and inciteful man, but he failed us not only as black people but he failed the nation. he failed to deal with the particular instances not only of michael brown. he doesn't have to deal with michael brown. the president said, i don't want to put my thumb on it too much to weigh the scales of justice. don't even talk about michael brown. talk about what led to michael brown. tell us as a nation what happens when festering rage in a community then begins to ignite and then begins to consume not only that community but the people around the nation who are empathet empathetic. i think the president has a lot more latitude. does he have opposition? yes. but when he opens his mouth on iraq, he's opposed. when he opens his mouth on the environment, he's opposed. he's opposed at every step. don't use this as an excuse to not speak about race. >> well, and we have very little time left, but i want charles to get in one more time. everyone knows what would happen if the president were to speak

more personally about this. we saw what happened when he made a self-evident statement about trayvon martin and if he had a son, he would look like trayvon martin. isn't the case, professor ogletree, that if the president were to step any further into the case and make the case in a sense partly about him, that essentially he will be pillar pillared -- >> i think he has to speak out. the second time he spoke about trayvon martin, you heard the real barack obama speaking from the bully pulpit about what it means to be a black man. he said, i was like trayvon martin when i was 17. he talked about women clutching their purses who were white. he talked about all the fear that people had from him. people have been dying left and right. it's time for this president, who i love dearly, to speak up and say what's in his mind and in his heart, that we can't allow anymore black boys 18 years old and younger to be shot and killed by police. that's just wrong. it's just inappropriate. and it can't be sanctioned, and

it can't be ignored by someone who has the bully pulpit and the power to change that. >> i wish we had more time. professors, thank you for being here. breaking news now. a shooting in st. louis three miles from ferguson. st. louis police confirm there has been an officer-involved shooting. nbc's gabe gutierrez joins me on the phone from the scene. what do we know? >> hi there, joy. we're here at the corner of rearview and mcclaren. police confirmed this was an officer-involved shooting. police say the suspect brandished a knife. right now we do not have confirmation of the condition of the suspect or any of the circumstances that led up to this shooting. it's important to note that the lead agency on this right now is the st. louis metropolitan police, not the st. louis county police, which was responsible for the shooting in ferguson. so again, not a whole lot of information at this point. police have not come out to

confirm much. although, i do see a police news conference starting just about now. i'm going to head over there. again, officer-involved shooting. we do not know the condition of the suspect just yet. police do say that a knife was brandished. joy, back to you. i'm going to head to this news conference. >> yep, head on over. nbc's gabe gutierrez. thank you. we'll be right back. so factors like diet can negatively impact good bacteria? even if you're healthy and active. phillips digestive health support is a duo-probiotic that helps supplement good bacteria found in two parts of your digestive tract. i'm doubly impressed! phillips' digestive health. a daily probiotic. that's keeping you from the healthcare you deserve.. at humana, we believe the gap will close when healthcare gets simpler. when frustration and paperwork decrease.

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saying shoot me now, kill me now, shoot me. the elder woman said she could see the officers giving voice commands to the suspect. put the knife down, back up. he was not complying. what we know right now is that

we have a suspect who was involved in a theft, the department was contacted, acting erratically with a knife. police officers responded. when they responded, the suspect did not respond to verbal commands to drop his weapon. he approached both officers, and then when he closed within three to four feet of the knife in what's described as an overhand grip, the officers fired their weapon. any questions? >> do your men have tasers? >> some officers are armed with tasers. that is correct. >> given what's happening in ferguson, did you not tell your men to exercise the utmost caution? are you not concerned this is going to enflame things even more? >> that's a great question. i think officer safety is the number one issue. if you're the family of a police officer and somebody approaches you within three feet with a knife, i think you have the right to defend yourself and protect yourself. so i think it certainly is reasonable that an officer has an expectation to go home at the end of the night. i think we can all understand what's going on in ferguson. but i think every police officer that's out here has a right to defends themselves and the

community. >> is there video of the theft? >> we're currently looking to see if there is video inside. if there is, i will let you know. if we can share that video, we will. we're in the process of doing that now. >> do you have the knife? >> the knife has been recovered. >> you have a lot of details early on in the investigation. do you feel like you have to get the story out, exactly what happened here, so people who see this know this is what happened right here today? >> are you from st. louis? >> i am not. >> this is typically how we do investigations in the city of st. louis, to put information out as quickly as possible so everyone knows the context of what happened. so i think it's important to do that. there is a great deal of detail, but that's what we know at this point. >> chief, regardless -- >> how concerned are you that what happened here could enflame the tensions? >> i think anybody that's watched television over the last week has to be concerned about that. we'll spend time working in the community to make sure. i've already talked -- as i said, a woman witnessed this incident for the city of st. louis. i've already talked to two others because i want this message to be out as truthfully and as quickly as possible.

>> chief, we're already starting to hear people yelling. are you guys concerned about this? >> concerned isn't the right word. it's important people understand what happened. we're going to get that message out as quickly as we can to as many sources as we can. >> do you think the governor should call in the national guard? >> i think this is an incident that happened in the city of st. louis, and we're dealing with it. >> was the incident caught on camera? >> we're investigating that right now. if anybody witnessed incident or has cell phone video of the incident, that they would certainly want to share it with us. >> was the victim mentally challenged? >> we haven't identified the victim for sure yet. he's got identification, but we haven't been able to notify next of kin to determine that. >> did he say, just shoot me? >> shoot me, kill me now, is the way that it was described to me by the witnesses. >> in a taunting matter? do you think this suspect wanted to die? >> i think by the description, he was acting erratically and

his behavior, approaching the officers, they drew their weapons, gave verbal commands, approached a second officer with a weapon out in a threatening manner with a knife in and overhand posture. i certainly think that's an aggressive stance. >> what is their disposition now? what happened with them? >> right now we have an investigation that goes on. the officers will not be on the street. they'll be on administrative duty until we can determine the facts, if they are different than i have described. >> are you concerned the phrase suicide by cop? was this that? >> certainly one of the witnesses described it as a suicide by cop. i didn't describe it that way. i have heard that used, yes. >> how many shots were fired? >> we're investigating that right now. both officers fired. i don't know how many yet. >> where was he hit? >> i don't know. we'll have to wait for that information. >> the officers were inside the car and then they got outside the car? >> they exited the vehicles. their weapons were not drawn.

as the suspect approached, their weapons were drawn. >> what's the policy on that sort of thing? >> our policy is at the end of the day, the officer should be able to go home. some the amount of force necessary to overcome the resistance. if a person is charging you with a knife and they're within three or four feet, that's a lethal range for a knife. our public information people will have more information as soon as it's available. thank you very much. >> that was st. louis metropolitan police department chief giving a press conference on a police-involved shooting that took place near the town of ferguson. not in ferguson, but nearby. police are saying that a knife-wielding suspect was acting erratically, approached two police officers, said something on the order of, shoot me. they say witnesses confirmed this, that both officers fired their weapons. the suspect was indeed killed. there has been no release of an identity on the suspect. no next of kin identified yet. so again a police-involved shooting near ferguson,

missouri, near the site where we have been covering the michael brown shooting. that's the latest we know. we'll have more from msnbc as we get developments. thank you very much for watching. "the cycle" is next. breaking news now in "the cycle." another officer-involved is shooting in st. louis. the suspect was apparently wielding a knife at the time. we're still working to learn more details from authorities, and of course we'll bring you all of those details as they become available. right now, though, we want to go to gabe gutierrez -- oh, right now we're going to go to the story of the day. we've got the family of michael brown planning a public memorial for next monday as tensions in ferguson and across the nation remain high. i am krystal ball. brown's body should be released

to his family in the next 48 hours now that all three autopsies, that's local, private, and federal, are now complete. coming up, we will hear from the police captain who is trying to extend the daytime calm into after dark as well as the woman who says she's spoken to officer darren wilson's family and is ready to tell his side of the story. but first, the presence of the national guard has done nothing to calm the nighttime violence. the cops are blaming the escalating chaos on non-ferguson residents who are looking to exploit this chaotic situation. captain ron johnson, who's heading up efforts there, says he's trying to protect the peaceful protesters who are fighting to get their voices heard, and he's advising them to come out during the daylight so folks he calls criminals can not hide behind them. 78 people were arrested overnight. a handful were from out of state. the faa is now also extending a partial ban on flights above