>> lance creeg, thank you very much for joining us tonight and for your perspective on all this. thank you. >> thanks for having me. a dove named paul? a hawk named hillary? let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. let me start with the president's decision today to hold off on air strikes in syria. >> i don't want to put the cart before the horse. we don't have a strategy yet. i think what i have seen in some of the yous reports suggests folks are getting further ahead of where we're at than we

currently are. that's not just my assessment but the assessment of the military as well. we need clear plans that we are developing them. i will consult with congress. and make sure their voices are heard. there is no point asking until we know what it will take to get the job done. >> that was a surprise. the big debate is do we go the direction of george bush again back to pursuing grand goals of ideology? the freedom agenda or do we stick to the dovish stance of president obama trying hard the to wind down the military intervention in the islamic world? here come it is big irony. could the voters be asked to choose from are a dovish republican in rand paul versus a

relatively hawkish hillary clinton? listening to what they are saying it's hard to see anything else. in a wall street journal op-ed today senator paul had strong words for people who pushed for stronger action in syria. he wrote, "shooting first and asking questions later has never been a good foreign policy. the past year has been a perfect example. our middle east policies unhinged flailing about to see who to act against next with little thought to the consequences. this is not a foreign policy." he pointed out if the hawks got their way and we brought down the government of al assad, it would have been strengthened. the administration's goal has been to degrade assad's power, forcing him to negotiate with the rebels, but degrading assad's military capacity also degrades his ability to fend off isis. joining us are howard fineman and ron reagan. we were talking before the show. very much like the way he's been. dovish. stay out of this stuff.

>> it's as though he read rand paul's op-ed piece. my head is spinning. you have rand paul writing an op-ed piece that could have been written a generation ago by george mcgovern, and the national committee came out with a statement attacking rand paul from the right. basically from the hawkish perspective that sounded like something that could have been produced by dick cheney or john mccain or rudy giuliani a few years ago. this is who he is. he'll go so far as to say, hey, i don't have a plan. i have no strategy as a way the to buy time, rather than shoot first and ask questions later. >> ron reagan, i have been looking at this for weeks nowment i saw it coming. rand paul is an isolationist, a dove. in many ways he conforms to what i think, probably for different reasons. i think the united states has gone way overboard in involvement in the world. too many fights, too many

enemies looking for trouble. an itchy trigger finger. hillary clinton seems to want to be at least two notches to the right if not one notch to the right of the president. much tougher on russia, ukraine, the middle east, china, everywhere. she's much more ornery and wanting to fight. what's your thinking? what's going on with american foreign policy in the debate? >> the rand paul brand looks better on a bumper sticker than when you flesh it out. howard fineman is a fine editor. if rand paul were one of his columnists and turned this in as a think piece howard would send it back in no uncertain terms saying you need to put thought into it. what was he saying exactly? that we should learn from mistakes in the middle east especially and not repeat them. well, thank you very much, senator paul. next column maybe you can do something on the importance of washing your hands after using the restroom. what did this piece say?

nothing. it said let's not be stupid in foreign policy. there is no prescription there from paul. the political point that up is down and black is white with hillary. >> what i remember about eisenhower is he didn't take us to vietnam. that was a good thing he didn't do. when it comes to foreign policy i believe some of the best stuff you do is what you don't do. lyndon johnson did a lot in foreign policy, right? >> yeah. >> a lot of foreign policy. >> as howard said rand paul's essay is like barack obama's don't do stupid stuff. they are a mirror immanual of one another. >> hillary clinton says not doing stupid stuff isn't enough. you have to do other things. what are those? that's what we'll see in the depate if she runs.

>> if i had been editing rand paul's piece and i'll ask him to submit the next one to me, ron. >> you should. >> first of all, he should have said what he would do. ron's right. he didn't say, okay, you're cautious, you're smart. >> leave syria alonement stay out of it. >> that's true. >> what's wrong with saying we don't have to mess in everybody's rhubarb. why are we building syria, iraq, egypt, the emirates? >> we are largely leaving syria alone. we have not gone into syria. you want to ask rand paul, what happens when isis beheads other americans? what if they attack oil fields vital to the national interest, an ally we have a defense treaty with. what then? well, hands off? it's more complicated than rand paul's imagining would have it. >> here comes senator paul again. he called out hillary clinton by name for her hawkish views on syria.

wrote, to interventionists like former secretary of state hillary clinton we would caution that arming the islamic rebels in syria created a haven for the islamic state. we are lucky mrs. clinton didn't get her way and the obama administration didn't bring about regime change in syria. that new regime might have been isis. on "meet the press" sunday the senator called hillary clinton a war hawk. listen. >> in a general election, were i to run there will be independent and democrats who say, we are tired of war. we are worried hillary clinton will get us involved in a middle eastern war. if you want to see a transformational election in the country let the democrats put forward a war hawk like hillary clinton and see a transformation like you have never seen. amazing stuff that this campaign has begun in 2014. two years from thousand. >> to look at history, a generation ago all the fights about intervention, isolation

and so on were within the democratic party starting with johnson and kennedy, through mcgovern and so forth. now it looks like, if rand paul is to be taken seriously, that the fight will be within the republican party. i would have said, who are the unnamed republicans you are also putting in hillary clinton's camp? if you're going to get to hillary clinton -- >> you're doing one of these. come at me. where is that from? pittsburgh? >> you want to go directly to hillary clinton and set up the general election. who are the republicans you will take on here? >> it's great. isn't it good? >> yes. >> isn't it good we are debating instead of just doing it? we never had a debate about going into iraq, as i recall. a few of us opposed the war. john kerry, biden. who didn't support the war? >> hillary. >> i don't want to get caught on the wrong side of this baby. i don't want to look weak. i have to look at strong as republicans.

that kind of chicken is where the democratic party didn't show its finest colors when they said we don't want to be caught off base. i think you are right, howard. the great debate might be in the debates which -- by the way, the media won't be involved in the debates next year. we're not involved. >> i think if paul starts the serious argument within the republican party it could spread to the democrats as well. hillary clinton better watch out. >> who's going to carry the banner -- >> i don't know. >> -- for the dovish side. >> i don't know. >> who would be the dove against hillary if she runs? she sounds like it. a couple notches from the president. one would be appropriate. if she's two notches from russia, china, the middle east, somebody will commit against her on the left, i think. do you agree? >> boy, i don't know. i can't see anybody actually challenging her now are from either side from the democratic party.

interestingly enough for rand paul he's got the opposite problem -- hand paul has decided to go into the republican primary running to the left of hillary clinton. that's a novel strategy for a republican. i have to say. >> i love it. >> some of the primaries and caucuses you can register on the day, go in and participate where the action is. i think that's one thing rand paul is looking at is a strategy. independents and dems to vote for him. if he's the only anti-war, let's be careful, let's get involved, get in other people's rhubarb to use your are phrase. >> that's from batman. i grew up with people like mark hatfield, john sherman cooper.

these were the people opposed to the vietnam war, republicans out front. it's not the craziest thing for a republican to be dove issue. great to see you. coming up, karl rove's group crossroads gps commissioned a record looking at the republican party standing with women. the blunt finding of the group, female voters think the republican party is intolerant, lacking in compassion, stuck in the past. that's the republican view of their own party. also, what do you think when you mix a private donor's conference sponsored by the koch brothers, an unguarded politician and an audio recording. the latest behind closed doors look at what they really think. this time it's mitch mcconnell explaining what the republican agenda will be if he gets to be majority leader. yesterday, we saw the tragic consequence of what happens when a 9-year-old girl is allowed to shoot an automatic weapon, an uzi. for some gun people -- i can

call them gun nuts, like the nra people, it's the tip of the iceberg. they want virtually no restrictions on guns. wait until you see laws pushed across the country. they are on a slippery slope on the far right. finally, people who speak with a forked tongue like mitch mcconnell and mitt romney. this is "hardball," the place for politics. [ julie ] the wrinkle cream graveyard. if it doesn't work fast... you're on to the next thing. neutrogena® rapid wrinkle repair has the fastest retinol formula to visibly reduce fine lines and wrinkles in just one week. neutrogena®. and cialis for daily use helps you be ready anytime the moment is right. cialis is also the only daily ed tablet approved to treat symptoms of bph, like needing to go frequently. tell your doctor about all your medical conditions and medicines, and ask if your heart is healthy enough for sex. do not take cialis if you take nitrates for chest pain, as it may cause an unsafe drop in blood pressure. do not drink alcohol in excess.

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welcome back to "hardball." when president obama won 55% of the women's vote to romney's 44% republicans could no longer deny they had a problem. it was acknowledged in the 2013 rnc autopsy report. now a new report commissioned by two major republican organizations including one founded by karl rove. it has bleak news for the grand old party among women. it concludes female voters view the party as intolerant, lacking in compassion, stuck in the past. if hillary clinton is their democratic nominee for president in 2016 the republican party's un popularity with women voters could grow exponentially. joining us is kelly ann conway, a great pollster with the republicans generally and michelle bernard, president of the bernard center for women, politics and public policy who i

can never figure out politically. kelly, you know karl rove and we all know him in different ways. what do you make of the republicans doing their own polling and coming out with words that suggest a real problem? >> i thought this polling was the opposite of breaking news. it's what we saw when developing the contract with america. it shows the caricature of the republicans takes hold. i can tell you what the party is doing. the party is doing its own polling. i have been involved in focus groups and we find there are certainly some of the stereotypes that persist. there are a number of policies that when explained matter. if you have a happy optimistic message that connects with people, remember the famous washington post poll after the 2012 election? mitt romney beat barack obama and who has a vision, he lost 81-18 on which one cares about people like you.

even a majority of republicans agreed. there is no question you have to -- >> here's the question. why are women more susceptible to buying the caricature. are men buying the caricature of what the party is? >> sometimes. >> does it work both ways? >> sometimes that's true, chris. the genderer gap works both ways. president obama, president clinton, it is difficult for democratic candidates to win men much the way it is difficult for republican candidates to win women. in the case of clinton, she may be the democrats mitt romney in 2016. what evidence is it that she connects with all women? i don't know how good a candidate she'll be. it's one answer we have to wait for. how good a candidate will hillary clinton be? she has the name i.d., credentials f. she's great she walks away.

if she's okay, it's close. >> it's a terrible summer of unforced errors for her in the book tour. terrible. >> okay. that was a late hit. to this one. >> 15 yards. >> 49-39 among women. my question is do you know why it's important? here's the answer before kellyanne gets back. there are more women than men so the gender gap on the women's side is lethal. >> not only that there are more women than men but women go out and vote. women go to the poll and vote on the issues that matter. what i like and find interesting. i know what people think about karl rove. i'm a fan. we have talked about it before. i think he's a brilliant strategist. i watched him work. i personally witnessed him go out with george bush and work hard for the african-american

vote. regardless of people say the increase bush got was negligible a 3% increase in the african-american vote is a big deal. i like the poll -- >> did you vote for bush? >> i think he got he once, not twice. >> first or second? >> when everyone was worried about the -- >> vote for the first or second time. >> i don't remember. >> would you vote for him again? >> when i was worried about terrorism, i saw the massacre in russia. i saw those children could have been mine. george bush was my man. the hanl out of the poll is that the republican party keep s doing autopsies on lots of things. how do we get white women to vote for us. how does the republican party get anyone that's not a white man to vote for them. >> in 2014 we have a poll that

shows among women voters, republicans favored to run the congress, 37% want the congress in republican hands and 51% of women, a real majority want the democrats. explain that. is that caricature. >> not at all. they are probably going to vote for their incumbents. particularly in the house if they are republicans chances are that individual's connection with that woman and his or her performance on the job will trump party i.d. on the senate side it's fascinating. 2014 is incredible. you have females -- democrat and republicans --. i bet you that mary landrieu, kay hagan and michelle nunn, three female democrats in the south are not going to run on the war on women, anti-woman republican meme. how can they do that? georgia, louisiana and north

carolina. >> they're not talking -- not that it's the only issue. they don't talk about abortion rights down south. right? >> right. >> let me ask you this profound thing. you are fighting a number. 51-37. that's a huge change. it seems women -- i look at people like joanie ernst. i bet she'll do better among men. that's odd. people vote ideology not gender. >> correct. >> you have an african-american senator from south carolina who's a republican. >> yes. >> people -- you have our friend michael steele running in maryland. >> in our state, yes. >> he got blown away by the african-americans. they killed him because he's a republican. >> one of the things we have to look at and kellyanne is my favorite pollster, we have used her. we have to look at the browning of the country. if you look at how voters, the

democrats of the republican woman who votes republican. most are married. most are white. most live in upper middle class families. the country is browning. you are seeing fewer white women just like you are anywhere else. >> and not getting married. >> they are not getting married. economic issues, the democratic party looks friendlier. >> i agree. people that go to church a lot, married tend to be republican. those who aren't married, don't go to church a lot tend to be democratic. kellyanne, please come back. we have so much to talk about. great conversation. i almost got a word in there. up next, a word to the wise for rick perry. if you have been indicted on criminal charges you should probably know what the charges arement another oops from the man from texas. this is "hardball," the place for politics.

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back to "hardball." time for the sideshow. president obama can't be happy, nor are most people, that burger king is moving to canada to avoid taxes. but the deal has the financial backing of his political ally warren buffett who previously backed the doctrine of tax fairness. david letterman weighed in on the controversy. take a look. >> burger king is moving to canada. they think it is a tax dodge. the if they move to canada and they bought up the donut place tim hortons, now the government isn't happy about it. president obama isn't happy. look at what happened when he heard that burger king was moving to canada. watch this. >> financed by billionaire warren buffett, burger king will purchase canadian donut chain tim hortons in order to avoid paying american taxes. upon hearing about the deal president obama immediately took back warren buffett's medal of

freedom. [ applause ] more news after this. >> next up, speculation this week that the u.s. led fight against isis in iraq could expand into syria led many to point out a move could put us on the same side as bashar al assad blurring the lines of which side we are on. here is jon stewart reacting to that. >> could you see as crazy as it might sound some sort of covert cooperation between the u.s. and the syrian regime of al assad in damascus? >> you know, it is [ bleep ] like this that makes you almost regret us destabilizing the region in the first place. >> i get it now. >> now we find ourselves trapped between iraq -- and assad place. are [ cheers and applause ]

>> finally, if there is one thing we learned about former presidential candidate rick perry during the 2012 campaign it was that he doesn't have the best memory. who can forget the oops heard around the world. >> the third agency of government, i would do away with education, the -- um -- >> commerce. >> commerce. and let's see. >> oh, my. >> i can't. the third one i can't. i'm sorry. oops. >> that was a small oops. anyway, it seems the recently indicted governor of texas has forgotten which criminal charges have been filed against him. according to abc news he told a group of business leaders in new hampshire over the weekend that, quote, i have been indict bid the same body now for, i think, two counts. one on bribery, which i'm not a lawyer so i don't really understand the details here. well, in fact, the charges do not include bribery at all.

perry has been indicted for, quote, abuse of official capacity and coercion. you ought to know what you are being charged with. if you are talking about taking down the president make sure nobody is recording you. senator mcconnell caught on tape. that's next. you're watching "hardball," the place for politics. when you run a business, you can't settle for slow.

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welcome back to "hardball." kentucky republican mitch mcconnell was are recently recorded bragging at a koch brothers retreat in california about what he'll do to destroy president obama's legislative accomplishment if he become it

is the senate majority leader. mcconnell is currently in the political fight of his life in kentucky. he promises to use the budget process to defund things like the affordable care act itself. nbc news is not independently verified the voice on the audio but the recording was taken from the left-leaning youtube source called the undercurrent. let's listen. >> we're going to go after them on health care, on financial services, on the virlt tall protection agency across the board. all across the federal government, we're going to go after it and we are not going to be debating all these gosh darn proposals. that's all we do in the senate is vote on things like raising the minimum wage -- cost the country 500,000 new jobs. extending unemployment. that's the great message for retirees. the student loan package the other day. that's just going to make things worse.

these people believe in all the wrong things. >> when the audio is that bad you know it's worth listening to. somebody snuck in the recorder. politicians get into trouble when they think they are addressing a small group of similar-minded people. remember mitt romney and the 47%? here it is again. same problem. >> 47% of the people who vote for the president, agree with him. 47% are dpen dend upon government who believe that they are victims, who believe the government has a responsibility to care for them, who believe they are entitled to health care, food, housing, you name it. it's entitlement. that the government should give it to them. they will vote for this president no matter what. >> the negative messages the candidates are sending behind closed doors that get caught never play well when they are made public. jonathan ways man is is with the new york times and perry bacon is a political news reporter.

the rule was don't say anything in politics unless you are ready to see it on the front page of the newspaper. >> right. that's a caution a lot of them can't abide by when they get in front of fat cats they are trying to kiss. >> exactly. >> it usually requires an exclusive cute deal that i will do something for you that will offend other people. let me whisper it when nobody is listening. your thoughts. this is a bipartisan problem. >> these are the donors backing you up. backing up the party. you feel you need to give them something. the mcconnell campaign said this is something he says all the time. this is not his stump speech. this is what he was telling a group of donors that's not just bank rolling mitch mcconnell but all the candidates that would

make him the senate majority leader next year. >> this was the koch brothers? >> right. not just americans for prosperity. this was a koch brothers conclave for the whole afp, just universe of koch brothers people that wanted their money's worth. >> the audio always sucks because it means somebody snuck a cell phone in or a bartender. let's look at the bartender. we showed that one already. this is one from catching the democrats. this is the president of the united states in 2008 talking to a bunch of liberals in san francisco telling them we don't have to worry about lower level people who need guns and bibles. >> people have been beaten down so long that they feel so betrayed by government.

let's pardon them that they get bitter and cling to guns, religion or antipathy toward people who aren't like them. as a way to explain their frustrations. >> the president lost the pennsylvania primary by nine points. in 1984 colorado senator gary hart was in a tight nomination fight with former vice president walter mondale over california and new jersey when he stepped into it, too, in front of a private audience in california. he described what it was like campaigning apart from his wife. the deal is we campaign separately. the good news is she campaigns in california and i campaign in new jersey. i got to hold a koala bear. mrs. hart said i won't tell you what i got to hold -- samples from a toxic waste dump. hart lost new jersey by over 15 points. they don't like to be called the

solid waste types. it must have worked with the community in california. >> you never want to say something you would not say in public. obama would never talk about religious people like that in public. romney would never say that. i think mcconnell got away here because he said he'll block things obama is doing. that's not news. >> it was a total destruction. >> he said something similar to politico, laying out the idea for attaching anti-obama stuff to spending bills. he talked about it already in some ways. i wasn't shocked. >> let me go back. do you know what i think the news is? when talking to the koch brothers they are not interested in a mix of progressive here, but mostly conservative here. they want an end to government because they are in the oil and gas business. all they want is no more taxes and certainly no more environmental regulation. they want no more government. that's what the koch brothers want.

>> i think -- go ahead. >> i think what's most significant, believe me is the optics of it. what you will do is see these audiotapes super imposed over a picture of mitch mcconnell looking mean. you will see them in october in the run-up. >> it feels like he didn't say anything particularly outlandish. it's not going to look good on an advertisement. >> how would you find a picture of mitch mcconnell looking mean? >> i have no idea. >> you're playing down your own scoop. good work here. perry, thank you. a programming note. allison lundergan grimes will

talk to lawrence o'donnell tonight on the last word. her first national interview. don't miss it tonight at 10:00 p.m. eastern. we'll be right back. the rain, the mud -- babam! it's there. the outside comes in. it's kinda nasty so you start the towel-mop shuffle. where are you sun?! [ doorbell rings ] oh, wow, it's a swiffer wetjet. this puts my towel mopping to shame. whoa! ewww. sunshine is overrated, now we can get messy. [ laughs ] now we can get messy. press your tonguenture, against it like this. it moves unlike natural teeth. do you feel it? it can happen with every denture. introducing new fixodent plus true feel. it helps keep dentures firmly in place. with a smooth formula, free of flavors and colorants.

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republicans are fighting hard to keep their spots. the latest poll has scott walkerer down by two the points to his democratic challenger mary burke. it's burke 49, walker 47. a similar story in michigan where governor snyder is trailing former democratic congressman mark schauer 45-43. a close one. look at what's happening in pennsylvania. the latest poll from franklin and marshall has governor tom corbett trounced by 25 points. tom wolf, 49ment the democratic challenger. the incumbent, 24%. can't get much lower than that. we'll be right back.

we're back with a gun range story. it confirmed the death was caused by a single shot to the head. the instructor at the bullets and burgers gun range was shot when the girl lost control of an uzi.

it ignited new debate over gun safety. the fact that the recall is too strong for a child of that age seems a matter of common sense. it was reminiscent of a 2008 incident in which an 8-year-old boy in massachusetts fired the very same weapon with disastrous results. the gun tilted up, killing him in the process. unfortunately these tragedies are part of a bigger problem in the country which has seen an erosion of gun restrictions over the past 30 years. unsurprisingly the national rifle association has been con speck lousily silent since that event. for years the nra raised money on the notion that any restrictions on guns will lead to their confiscation which they call a slip vi slope. but there is a slippery slope on the other side toward complete unrestricted access to firearms. guns are ubiquitous thanks to advocacy of the nra. joining me is jim cavanaugh, retired atf special agent in

charge and chief johnson of the national law enforcement partnership to prevent gun violence and police chief of baltimore county, maryland. thank you. i want to speak to mr. cavanaugh first. what is it about the nra's current position that seems to the allow them or force them to say nothing this these days since the tragedy where the young 9-year-old girl was shooting an automatic weapon. >> chris, i would say that lobby groups like the nra don't feel they have to say anything. today tuck in, get advice from the public affairs specialist to just stay out of the fray. you know they are very adept at maneuvering the trenches on the hill up there as you are know. they will probably stay out of the fray. if they say anything they may issue condolences or something. they will let it play out for operatorses of ranges around the country.

i think they'll let it play out for the operators and ranges around the country. you know, there's associations for them. and they're going to be more the out front speakers on the issue. >> does silence mean consent? >> well -- >> it often does in law. >> well, i think it does as far as they don't want to go any way against guns at all, no matter what. and that's what you described in your opening there. it's sort of a fanaticism and doesn't go to any moderation in anything. you know, it has to be one way or the highway and that's the way the lobby groups see it. they see it as just an idealism fanaticism with no compromise at all. >> what do you make of the no comment, mr. johnson, not even the words, no comment, nothing, just nothing. i mean, this involves guns. you know, uzi, a pretty dangerous weapon, is an automatic weapon. it's light. it's a submachine gun basically. and everybody with it can do a lot of damage. we saw what happened here. a lot of damage, unintended. totally unintended. it was the gun that killed people here. not just the person. >> certainly it's irresponsible on the part of organizations like nra not to speak out. it's, frankly, irresponsible to

put an uzi of that capability in the hands of a 9-year-old. for groups like the nra who have been founded upon, you know, gun safety and range and the sport, itself, you know, putting a ruger .22 in the hands, for example, of someone to train them is totally different than putting a gun of that capability in a 9-year-old's hands. totally irresponsible. >> let me ask you, mr. cavanaugh, what would be a restriction that would make sense here? i know everything they see sounds like confiscation to them, the slippery slope. here we are at the other end has become a slippery slope. anything goes. from what you said, it sounds like they don't want to hear that you can have an age requirement, say 18, something reasonable about being able to handle an automatic weapon. that would be pretty liberal. they don't even want to see that at these gun ranges. >> right. i don't think you're going to see any lobby groups get in the press for any change here. they're going to stay out of the fray. it would generally be up to the

states, chris, if there were any laws that talked about ages a gun ranges, and likely states that would pass the law don't need the law. and the states that need the law won't pass the law. and it's unlikely that we're going to have any change on the hill, and probably federal law wouldn't be the right place to address ages on guns anyway. so i'd say we're not going to have any legislative change, although it would probably be good if little children were, couldn't do that, but the children need protection immediately. that's where common sense comes in. that's where range operators have to say we're not going to do this anymore. we've had two deaths, they shouldn't be shooting these kinds of guns. they're submachine guns for the military, for the police, for trained people that collect them, certainly we understand that. in the citizens hands that have a permit for it. but not for children. it's not disneyland. you don't need to go out there shooting those kinds of weapons. >> chief johnson, seems to me even a fire hose had a kick to it. you need a couple serious firefighters to know how to handle one.

an automatic weapon like this, what kind of kick does it have? what kind of sense would anybody have -- i don't want to speak over the dead. this guy's dead. the idea of putting something like that in the hands of a skinny little girl. a 9-year-old girl. doesn't make any sense at all to anybody, right wing, left wing, down the middle. i don't get it. >> well, certainly common sense should have been applied here, and the muscular development of a child of that age certainly is not to the point to handle that weapon. look, as a nation, we implement all sorts of different rules, policies, and laws in some cases to safeguard children and others. have to be a certain height to ride an amusement ride park. require bike helmets. but yet we won't tackle an issue like this. certainly here i think common sense should have prevailed. you know, we pass common sense laws in this nation. we're seeking common sense gun laws like a national background check. but in this case, you know, i don't care what type of rule, policies you may have put in place, or the way the range

instructor hovered over the child. there's very little you can do with, you have a kid with that kind of weapon in their hands. that thing's going everywhere. >> here's a crazy law in vermont, which i thought was a pretty liberal state. apparently you can get a gun at 16, you can buy a handgun or a shotgun at 16 but have to be 17 to see an "r" rated movie. interesting how we make these judgments. thank you, jim cavanaugh, thank you jim johnson for joining us. another tragedy. and we'll be right back after this. differently. brushing alone does less than half the job leaving behind millions of germs. complete the job with listerine®. kill up to 99 percent of germs. and prevent plaque, early gum disease and bad breath. complete the job with listerine®. power to your mouth™. also try listerine® floss. its advanced technology removes more plaque.

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let me finish tonight with people who speak with forked tongue. you know, the old tv shows, the american indian would accuse the white man of speaking with a forked tongue. well, apparently according to webster's dictionary, it really is a genuine american-indian term. means being deceitful. means lying. it always struck me it meant saying one thing while intending another, like all the promises made to the indian tribes while the real loyalty was to those who wanted the indians' land. well, this is what politicians do. not too many years ago they could'sly get away with it. there was one in louisiana who would go into a catholic area and suggest he was raised catholic, then into a baptist area to imply the same thing about that religion. can't do that anymore. why? someone in the room is going to have a cell phone or some other piece of electronics and get you on the record and send it out even if, especially if, that's the last thing you want done.

how do we know that barack obama talked to the liberals of san francisco about the people who, quote, cling to their guns or religion? because someone had a cell phone and put it out. and we know what he said. how do we know that mitt romney was talking down to the 47% he said lived off the rest of the country? because a bartender record it. don't you love this stuff, when a politician gets caught pandering to one group while putting down the other to have the other group learn what he was saying behind closed doors. it shouldn't surprise us, none of this. why do you think the press out of political fund-raisers? they don't want us or the public to hear what it is they're throwing out when they're throwing out the raw meat. they don't want the feeding time at the zoo to get out there, out there where we get to hear what the politician is offering and to whom. that's "hardball" for now. thanks for being with us. "all in with chris hayes" starts right now. tonight, we are "all in." >> yes, we can! yes, we can! >> scores of protesters arrested

outside the white house. republicans threaten another government shutdown over immigration. >> it would be a real shame if republicans were to engage in an effort to shut down the government. >> tonight, the immigration wars going up. >> last chance, sir. >> immigration activist enrique mirones is here to finish his thought. then, a land war in europe. >> russia is responsible for the violence in eastern ukraine. >> and the president's still developing a plan to combat isis. >> i don't want to put the cart before the horse. we don't have a strategy yet. >> latest from ukraine and the politics of the most recent war in iraq. plus, omani jones on the nfl's stunning admission on domestic violence. and the amazing story, grocery store workers save their own ceo. >> all i can say is it's great to be back again. >> "all in" starts right now.