this morning, my question. will the nfl's rule change change anything? plus, a big assist for college athletes. and atlantic city's big gamble. but, first, coming to america to work. good morning, i'm melissa harris-perry. we begin today with the issue of immigration. the topic has gotten a lot of renewed attention as they speculate about whether president obama will take executive action to address the nation's broken immigration policies. remember back in june he appeared in the rose garden and said this. >> today, i'm beginning a new effort to fix as much of our immigration system as i can on my own. without congress.

>> on my own. without congress. and, so, while we still don't know precisely what he is prepared to do, we know that the president doubts that any meaningful collaboration is possible with the gridlocked congress. if he is to build a comprehensive plan for immigration reform, he eis going to have to build it alone. this idea of building it all alone has me thinking about another summer moment from president obama. not summer 2014 when he tried to figure out what to do solo about the national issue of immigration, but summer 2012 when he was running for re-election and said this at a campaign stop in virginia. >> if you've been successful, you didn't get there on your own. if you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. there was a great teacher somewhere in your life. somebody helped to create this unbelievable american system that we have that allowed you to thrive. somebody invested in roads and

bridges. if you've got a business, you didda ann't build that. somebody else made thatp happen. >> we all know what happened next in the way president obama's opponents attempted to use his words against him. just how accurate president obama's assessment is in the particular context of immigration. just who did build america? well, let's start with the president's house. the white house was designed by irish immigrant and largely built by enslaved men and women from the african continent. immigrants, they built that. the brooklyn bridge, which made possible the new york economy by connecting brooklyn and manhattan and became an iconic american architectural achievement. it was designed by john agusts, german immigrant, immigrants, they built that. the transcontinental railroad. the link between our national coach which revolutionized the movement of goods and people and

communication it was built by thousands of workers who were primarily chinese immigrants. many of whom lost their lives in the effort. immigrants, they built that. and the vaulted ceilings domes and arches that surface skele n skeletons of famous structures like ellis island and five u.s. state capital buildings. yep, immigrants built that. this is not just a story of glorified immigrants of yesteryear. between 1990 and 2006 increased labor force participation and u.s. workers earnings. a lesson learned in arizona after the 2010 dubbed the papers please law, the state lost 141 million in conference cancellations because of the backlash. alabama is estimated to lose up to $10.8 billion or more than its 6% of its gdp because of its

immigration bill, which the district portions of which struck down by a settlement last year. in georgia, their immigration law caused severe labor shortages with workers and their families avoiding the state. it's estimated that the state lost $300 million in unharvested crops. the statewide impact in 2011 was estimated to be $1 billion. when immigrants are not welcome to help build our nation, we are the ones who suffer. but we can choose a different path. we celebrate the ways that immigrants continue to build this. immigrants are 30% more likely to start businesses in the u.s. and they constitute 18% of all small business owners. as of 2007 small businesses owned by immigrants owned an estimated 4.7 million people and generated more than $776 billion annually. compreehensive immigration reform could create up to 900,000 new jobs within three years.

it is estimated that legalizing our country's undocumented immigrants would add $1.5 trillion to the u.s. gdp over the next decade. and the federal government would accumuate between 4.5 and $5.4 billion in additional tax revenue in a little more than three years. so, we're forced to ask. if we close the door to immigrants, just who is going to build this. at the table, dorian moran, carman assistant industry professor at nyu papolytech. so nice to have you all at the table. >> hi, melissa. >> good morning. >> good morning. >> why do you think the presumption remains that immigrants are an economic threat rather than an economic benefit to the country? >> that perception remains because historically when people

react to immigration or waves of immigration, it's largely driven by politics and emotion. not by the facts. and, you know, we've gone through many historical, for example, with latin america, our relationship to immigration, but we see clear patterns. you know, going back to the turn of the last century when the united states instituted a lot of these executionary laws towards japanese and the void was filled by labor and when there was a shortage of native-born workers it was fi filled. particularly mexico, but it's not mexico that drives it. it's us. and that continues to this day. >> and, so, there's, on the one hand, i get this point that we actually have these moments where, in fact, it's clear imperically that immigration and immigrants themselves are economically beneficial to the nation and at least a little bit

of evidence that americans get this. way back in june of 2013, an immigration poll showed asked that if you legalize undocumented workers would be better for the economy. 75% of americans got that. even driven by politics, get that. you did have the sense, 2008, 2009, as we were inest of a deep, economic crisis that anti-immigrant feelings emerge at the same time. the pie shrinking, you can't have any. >> if you look at who is being threatened. talking high school education or lower. a class of americans who are being threatened job wise was comparably, actually, undocumented labor brings up wages by 10%. if you completely go across in certain sectors of this country, real specific areas where you have competitive workforce, then that's where a lot of the friction is coming from. undocumented, uneducated workforce, right? they are also, let's say, victims of the economy. where the jobs are going. right? we don't have manufacturing any

more. where do you go if you don't have the education? that's where we're getting a lot of the heat from, but in reality, we know this is not the case. one staff that i love, $15 billion of social security money is put in by undocumented. right? they take out $1 billion. so, for all americans right now who are receiving social security benefits, we're seeing the fruits of the labor and i recommend seeing this. the great movie and, as latino, we've been hearing this anti-immigrant rhetoric for our whole lives. there was a great movie called "a day without a mexican." fantastic film. not necessarily the middle class americans who understand that the foundation of their lives, whether it's from taking care of their lawns or taking care of their kids has to deal with immigrants, but the folks that actually compete directly for the jobs who feel most threatened. it's actually a really small portion. >> so, i guess part of then what is fascinating about that to me. i appreciate kind of taking

apart the labor market in the sectors and trying to think carefully about it. then when we look at the politics of it. here's the president saying, in june, all right, clearly congress is not going to do this. clearly we must have c comprehensive labor reform. we had the president saying it again. i'm going to do the best i can. >> you're going to delay -- >> let me just say this. i've been very clear about our immigration system is broken and needs to be fixed and my preference continues to be that congress act. but have no doubt, in the absence of congressional action, i'm going to do what i can to make sure the system works better. >> this is a matter of politics to the democratic party and precisely the people who have maybe the most legitimate economic angst and the most

supportive of immigration reform. >> the republican party if it wants to have a future as a competitive party needs to marginalize its anti-immigration wing and step up to where the business lobby is on this question who is, business has always been supportive of some immigration, legal and illegal, so to speak. the republican party for its survival also has to figure out strategy with immigrants and latino communities. the president won't be making those statements if there wasn't sustained, continued activism. i immigrant right activists. led by dreamers. put the pressure on last thursday another civil diso disobedience at the white house and putting the pressure on the president and members of congress to act in some way. >> what should the president do? >> act sooner rather than later. in the time where he's waiting, the republicans are out there making the case against his executive action and making it pretty well even though we don't know what it is going it be. >> right, making a case against

something we don't even know what it is going to be. making threats of impeachment and the imperial president and all that is out there putting them on the defensive before he is active. the other political danger of him waiting, the longer he waits, the greater the expectations are going to be for what he actually ends up doing. so, it could even backfire on him. if he ends up taking a relatively modest proposal, so many unhappy latino voters. so many unhappy progressives and beating over the head anyway. >> happened sooner might be more benefici beneficial. >> might be better to get out in front of it. when he talks about the broken immigration system, we talk about illegal workers and illegal immigration problem. but our broken system tremendously affects system and just by means of comparison, the united states, we have not changed the number of people we admit for high-skilled labor in this country. we have not changed it since 1990. think of all the industries. >> going some place else, that's

the thing, they're going to go some place else and build businesses. >> they are going to build somebody to be a building in the u.s. when we come back, we'll talk about the families that are caught in america's immigration crisis and how one family found sanctuary and where. don't wait for awesome... totino's pizza rolls... ...gets you there in just 60 seconds. nobody ever stomped their foot and asked for less. there's a reason it's called an "all you can eat" buffet... and not a "have just a little" buffet. because what we all really want is more. that's why verizon is giving you even more. now, for a limited time, get more data!

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>> we are hoping that other churches will step up. other communities to say, this is enough. we don't want to see people disappeared from our neighborhood any more. we want these families to remain together and we hope that that voice, that moral voice speaking about the importance of family unity would, indeed, influence policy. >> that was pastor allison harrington who joined me back in june to talk about her church, southside presbyterian giving

sanctuary to daniel ruiz and his wife and 13-year-old son after he refused to voluntarily return to mexico after a traffic stop revealed his lack of documentation. because of the efforts by southside presbyterian, he was granted a one-year stay on his deportation order. and, of course, the struggle continues. southside presbyterian is providing sanctuary to another mexican immigrant and her family. later this month, rosa, her husband and their two sons sought refuge at southside pr presbyterian the night before she was set to be deported. the family remains in limbo after her request to stay in the country was denied by immigration officials. though they have said they will not take immediate action against her. pastor harrington had this to say about how southside presbyterian will react to that decision. "we will continue to ask i.c.e. to issue a stay of removal for

rosa robles lorato until they understand that tucsonians and elected officials are preparing to act on behalf of this super achieving mother and community member." joining me now from tucson, arizona, pastor allison harrington. pastor harrington, tell me about rosa, this super mom. >> she's an amazing mother of two precious boys. 8-year-old and 11-year-old boy. and she's a little league mom. she's there cheering them on every day at their games. she's active in her own church. she's very active in our community. hard-working, tax paying woman. we are saying to the obama administration, don't tear this mother from her children. keep this family together. >> so, pastor, i found it interesting, you and i had a little communication and you were expressing some sense of

solidarity in the wake of mill millitary-like and important connections between that police militarization and the custom and border protection practices. help us understand how so. >> absolutely. what we have here on the border is the law enforcement agency, that is the biggest law enforcement agency in the nation with a budget of $13 billion. an agency that has 28 people have died at the hands of border patrol agents since 2010. and recently the former chief of internal affairs, jim tomshac has said at least a quarter of these deaths are questionable and he recently brought up concerns that instead of doing thorough reviews of these shootings, border patrol is often fabricating facts to make them seem like good shoots. this is coming from the former chief of internal affairs.

there is much that we're concerned about in terms of this impunity in which border patrol agents are acting on our border. >> hold for me one second, pastor. raul, i want to ask you a bit about this because we have been trying to think through on this set the alienation from the state that occurs as a result of policing and, in this case, the deportation and division of families. how then do those practices actually make this problem of trying to find a comprehensive solution even worse or harder? >> they make it harder because there's so many, the emotions are already so high around the issue of illegal immigration that most people don't even understand, for example, is it existing law. this is the perfect example. what this church seems to be doing, sort of radical as defying the government and offer sanctuary. all they are doing is holding i.c.e. to their own standards because under the 2011 i.c.e.

discretion memo, they should not focus on deporting people who have long-standing ties to the community, who have children under their care, who have no criminal record. that's the type of people who are seeking sanctuary in the churches. as wonderful as it is that the church is doing this, it is providing them with a haven and, at the same time, these people are literally trapped. it is a haven and from deportation and also a type of prison in the sense that i think in 2007, vira was in a church in chicago for over a year seeking sanctuary and the day she left, i think within a week, she was deported. so, it's tough. they are truly doing god' work. and i do think that what needs to be out there is that they are, in effect, supporting existing government policies just not implemented. >> it's interesting, pastor. i had maybe thought less of the way sanctuary could become imprisoning if part of what this mom does is go to her children's

games. i suppose she can't do that in the context of shaanctuary? >> no, she can't. the boys are there playing catch in the courtyard at the church. but, yes, she is there. you know, she is limited in what she can do and limited and being able to be in her community with her family. but she is surrounded by a great deal of community support. but it's exactly right. we're just trying to hold the administration accountable to the values they professed. president obama said we should not be in the business of tearing apart families and, yet, here we are. we're trying to hold our administration accountable to their own policies. >> let me ask you a final question because, obviously, you're doing this as one church and a few other churches beginning to take this up. we made an economic argument before the commercial, i'm trying to make a humanitarian one now. what seems to work in actually changing the minds of people who are initially opposed to

immigration in turchl terms of a comprehensive reform that will keep families together. >> i think what changed the hearts and minds is lifting up stories like rosa's story. she is a mom just like me who adores her two little boys and who wants to be in the stands cheering them on at their little league games. i think there is also a faith voice to say we're called by our scriptures to love our neighbor and rosa is our neighbor. what it means to love her is to make sure she stays with her family. >> pastor allison harrington in tucson, arizona, thank you for your continuing work and for joining us. also, thank you to raul. >> thank you so much. >> also thank you to raul reyes. still ahead, the latest on the health crisis spreading faster and further than anyone expected. ♪ ♪

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broke this week just as we were learning a separate ebola strain had broken out in the democratic republic of the congo. friday the world health organization said 500 cases were recorded over the past week, by far the worse toll. the ebola outbreak in west africa could eventually affect 20,000 people before the situation is brought under control. the people of liberia received some positive news this weekend when it was announced that quarantine of west point would be lifted. there is also a big development here in the u.s. in the fight against the disease. next week researchers will begin the first ever human trials of a vaccine to inoculate against ebola. the national institutes of health is developing the vaccine with the drugmaker, glaxosmithkline. it will start with 20 healthy adults and results are not expected until next year. in an interview with kate snow and the head of the nih was careful to manage expectations

of that new drug. >> is this as fast as you can go? because, as you know, people are dying every single day. >> this is not a treatment of a sick person. this is a prevention of infection. we still don't know if it works. having said that, we're going extremely quickly. >> the nih fast tracked the testing of the vaccine with many being developed right now but at the current pace it remains to be seen if it is useful in stopping the spread of the disease. joining me now joe montgomery of cdc kenya and team leader for cdc ebola response team in liberia. joel joins us by phone from monrovia. joel, what is it like on the ground in liberia where you are? >> yeah, the situation is actually very difficult right now. the cdc is working very closely

with our partners and several other medical partners here. unfortunately, this outbreak is still ahead of us working closely right now. our primary focus on the ground is trying to get ebola treatment units because, really, this is the only way we're going to be able to stop this outbreak with cases out in the community and get them out of the community they have to have a safe place to go and that is ebola treatment unit. we are working very closely with the ministry with our partners. in addition to that, we are providing technical support and assistance ministry helping to categorize and better define and trying to understand the distribution of cases throughout the country. and also we're helping to

develop the partnership and our colleagues at the department of defense from the national institutes of health, and w.h.o. >> thank you to joel montgomery on the phone in monrovia, liberia. good luck with your critical important work there. now i want to bring in laurie garret at the council on foreign relations. the most chilling story i heard from a colleague who was an e.r. doctor in a big city who said that in a conversation with his staff and team, nearly all of the health workers suggested that if someone in the u.s. or in their hospital presented with ebola, that they would make a choice to go home. and, so, as i'm looking at what's happening on the continent, apparently that is a choice being made by many health workers. how do we stem this tide when health workers themselves are so ce terrified to treat this disease. >> bullet points to what you're saying, melissa.

ellen johnson, the president of liberia, has dismissed many members of her cabinet and senior officials because they fled the country out of fear of ebola. in one particular hospital in sierra leon, 24 health care workers have died in the last six weeks. overall, health care workers are the number one highest risk group in this outbreak. doctors without borders has not lost a single person. and that says there is a way, there is a method for taking care of people and dealing with the quarantine and dealing with the triage. here's the acute, here's the suspect, here's the healing and separating them. all of this is doable, safely, by health care workers. the problem is that the msf methods are not being repeated everywhere. it's a very chaotic response, still. and the learning curve from one

institutional provider to another is very steep. msf is the only group that has really been consistently on the ground since this started in march. and, so, they really know what they're doing. now, what they're telling me and i met with the president of msf international last week and what they're telling me is, look, we don't need money right now. we need talented individuals who have real experience with epidemics. not do gooders that think they're going to fly in and woo-hoo. people that have actually worked in a protection suit. people who have worked in the panic and fear of an epidemic. people who know how to keep a cool head and watch their ps and qs every step of the way so they don't get infected. >> when you talk about panic. that feels to me like clearly part of what is happening is what we saw in the quarantine situation in liberia. and you've talked to us a bit about why that panic would emerge. what are reasonable ways to

actually calm that panic to express to communities and i keep hearing from everyone that education and explaining what ebola is and what safe practices are is critical, but that there is a great deal of resistance to having that information spread. >> the hard is, you don't want to tell everybody, hey, there is nuthing to worry about because there is a lot to worry about. you don't want people to stop taking precautions in terms of how they interact with other people. because you don't want the virus spreading. but on the other hand, panic, just out now, total fear, resulting in liberia, sierra leon and new guinea and people dying of preventable diseases because parents are afraid to take their kids to the hospitals. most of the hospitals are empty of everything except ebola patients. now, what's the number one diagnostic for a child under 5 in africa showing up at a hospital? high fever.

>> fever. >> usually due to an infection or malaria. what is the primary diagnosis for ebola right now? high fever. so, parents are making choices. minute by minute, can you imagine the fear american families would experience if every time one of your children had a fever, you had to make your own mental choices. is this ebola or not? should we risk going to a hospital or not? >> apparently americans are totally panicked by this. 40% of americans believe that they are going to know someone who has ebola over the course of the next year, which is a vast overestimation of the likelihood. >> i think americans are grossry overresponding and being overly fearful for themselves. >> and underresponding. >> let's look at what's happening in africa. korean airlines have shut down all flights, not just to the four affected countries. but kenya, tens neea and the

massive islamic hajj and already the indonesian government is saying if you go to the hajj and you come back with a fever, you're going into quarantine. of course, it's even worse because saudi arabia also has the mrs virus. >> so, it ends up potentially not having only the toll on human life and on the health system, but also an enormous economic impact. stay with us over the course of the next month, laurie. we're going to continue to come back to ask how this virus is impacting the continent. thank you to laurie garret. atlantic city's big gamble. are casinos becoming a losing bet?

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it was the city's newest and biggest casino opening to much fan fare and a $2.4 billion price tag just two and a half years ago. another casino is closing today, the show boat, which has been open for 27 years. next month trump plaza will also close its doors. the closures will mean a total loss of more than 6,000 jobs for the city in an area that already has a 10% unemployment rate. together the three casinos paid $30 million in property taxes a year. that is 15% of the city's budget and the city is now proposing a 29% property tax increase for homeowners. in addition to laying off hundreds of employees. all to make up the difference. the first casino in atlantic city opened in 1978 legalizing casino gambling in atlantic city was aimed at revitalizing the city which had fallen into poverty as tourists abandoned which was once a booming resort

town. now with competing casinos in maryland and delaware, atlantic city is looking to reinvent itself. in this original report, we get a closer look at the future of the famed boardwalk. ♪ >> in the initial stages of casino gaming, it was a great opportunity for atlantic city. right now, i think it's just the apprehension of what's to come. the casino industry and employment, people are worried. very concerned aboutloving their lives, sustaining their lives the way that they have. >> this time of the year, september would be a very bad time to be looking for a job. yeah, we're sad, you know. we're hoping that somebody steps in. >> the majority of individuals here that live in atlantic city,

they are entry level and work hard in the background. they make it look nice and cook and make the food taste good. quiet heroes in the background who are now being left aside with, you know, hopelessness. >> so, the city was really going through desperate times. when they decided to bring the casinos in and voted the casinos, my biggest concern was whether or not people in the community were going to really benefit or was it going to still be a situation where these casinos and other casino-related businesses were going to thrive. and the community was going to suffer. >> atlantic city is a market that's changing. we'll never divorce ourselves of the gaming, that's a piece of our economy. but it's really about growing the market into new and other things. >> the casinos have a strong leveraging power over the community. and i still think there's

opportunities for help to come from the casinos and industry to help replenish us because it is a majority industry. we have to sit at the table and have that dialogue. and there's too many people who are involved that don't reside here. that don't really care. don't have an investment that we do the people that reside here. it's easy for them. this is more so the corporate game. i look at the corporate game is not necessarily considering the employees per se or the residents here. it's business deals. it's unfortunate because it affects a lot of lives. >> such a microcosm of what's happening in so many other parts of the country. people get upset when we talk about being invested in atlantic city. but i don't think they really understand the history. the history of this city is that our parents and grandparents really did build this city.

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you know the classic board game monopoly all the way from mediterranean avenue to st. james place to the prized boardwalk. those properties are all based on streetslantic city, new jersey. inspired the american board game. joining our table to talk about the changing face of atlantic city and the closing of some of its major casinos. dorian warren political affairs at columbia university. assistant industry professor. msnbc reporter who went out to atlantic city this week to cover the story for us and michael pollack who is managing director of spectrum gaming group.

i actually want to start with you because, honestly, listening to the package that they did and thinking through this, i don't know maybe the first time i ever had an emotion about a casino. my initial reaction is to think, i don't care if casinos close because casinos aren't good things. make an argument for me. >> well, all right. there's a lot of points to be made. number one is that, obviously, on a very clinical economic sense, this is a question of supply coming down to demand decreases. supply goes down. but much more complicated than that. atlantic city is, in one sense, very much a victim of its own success. the first place in the united states outside nevada to use casino gambling to advance some public policy in urban development. and it demonstrated that casinos could be regulated effectively. and that was not the case in 1976. and it could also demonstrate

and could be a powerful economic tool. and other communities followed suit and that became the competition. >> it creates competition. >> but another element to this. atlantic city recognized that it cannot be, it can not function as simply the most convenient place in the eastern united states to gamble, which it was for years. that is not an effective business model. it's broken. never be fixed. >> that feels to me, that idea of sort of the tourism around a particular thing, that for me, c c carman, feels more beyond casinos or atlantic city americana. >> diversification completely. with anything, your own money and in terms of businesses. >> 15% of the city is coming from the casinos. >> and there's a big reason why, for example, if you go up to new

england and meadowlands my sisters who live in new england have been there and don't gamble. they went there for shows. las vegas now with its amazing restaurants and chefs. being able to lure other things because we have the two big hits, right, the recession and then also online gambling. other ways to gamble, we saw huge story in "the times" about video games and gambling on them. you have to diversify where the income is coming in. seems like a lot of developments those three huge casinos happening when there is a decline. fitch ratings is now saying that the business that would have gone to those casinos is actually most of it, 50% to 60% will stay in atlantic city with the smaller group of casinos that are there now. >> so, were these casinos truly job creators that penetrated below the top and, if so, then what happens to those workers? >> well, it's a little complicated because they were job creators and they did create a lot of jobs within atlantic city, but the bulk of those jobs wept to outlying areas and the jobs created. >> the tax revenue went to the

city, but the workers didn't necessarily? >> right. well, i believe about half of the working age populing, employed working age population is employed in the casinos but that's not the bulk of people that actually work there. the federal reserve of philadelphia put out a paper in 2009 about the paradox of atlantic city, which is that the casinos create a ton of jobs, but in atlantic city, unemployment is still significantly above the national average. and poverty is way higher than either the national average or the new jersey average. so, for i think the median household income there is $30,000. part of treason for that casino jobs despite the fact that there is a union presence in atlantic city that helps a bit, they're not high-wage jobs, especially for the people who live in atlantic city, they're not high wage jobs. >> this is one of the questions i have for you, again, my first reaction being like, well, i don't care about casinos and if

their jobs are not good jobs. isn't that like the progressive lefty labor narrative about don't go work at walmart because there's not a good job and people who need jobs are like, excuse me, i would like to go work there because i need to work. >> a couple thing there's. if we look at the las vegas, nevada, example. that is a great example of what happens to the town on casino gambling. those-low-wage jobs went to middle class jobs in nevada. that's the exception to the rule. it doesn't apply to other places. so i think gary, indiana, for instance, which has committed all of its staked on casino gambling to replace the steel industry hasn't worked. atlantic city, casino gambling. sort of like sports stadium in terms of saving a city of economic development, it never happens. frankly, no independent research outside of what is funded by the casino industry to really assess, what are the long-term effects of casino gambling. >> you want in on this?

>> absolutely. atlantic city is certainly iconic, but a lot of people don't realize how small atlantic city is. fewer than 40,000 residents from preschool to senior citizens. >> it's not las vegas. >> it's not a major city, it's a small place. even at its peak, even right now at its peak there was more jobs created than there were residents of atlantic city. but there's two critical points that need to be addressed. one is that the way out of this mess hasn't changed at all. it does need to diversify and that really needs capital investment. but the other point is that atlantic city certainly needs, it needs people who can make that happen. the retail segment of atlantic city is very strong. the restaurant segment is very strong. the notion that at lanlantic ci did not benefit from the

legalization of casinos. in my view after all these years is absurd. >> we'll keep our eye on what happens in atlantic city. thank you for going and doing reporting for us. i'll see if i could whoop you in a fast game of monopoly. i get all the cheapest properties and then bleed everybody else dry. thank you to carman and in the next hour, it's fall and football is back. we're going to take a closer look at the nfl's new policy on domestic violence. what it says about rules in the workplace and also what's next for michael sam. there is, of course, more nerdland at the top of the hour. so what we're looking for is a way to "plus" our accounting firm's mobile plan. and "minus" our expenses. perfect timing. we're offering our best-ever pricing on mobile plans for business. run the numbers on that. well, unlimited talk and text, and ten gigs of data for the five of you would be... one-seventy-five a month.

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issue in this country. an estimated 1.3 million women are physically assaulted by an intimate partner every year. and one in four women will experience domestic abuse in her lifetime. most will never report the violence to the police. shame, fear and the deep remain in tact even in the context of violence often lead women to stay silent. the fiancee now wife of baltimore ravens runningback ray rice was not able to keep her february experience of domestic violence silent. caught dragging his unconscious form out of an atlantic city hotel elevator. according to a police summons, she was unconscious because rice struck her and knocked her out. because the incident was caught on camera and her alleged abuser was wealthy and famous, the violence has become a public matter. the video has been watched and

broadcast and analyzed and judged and critiqued and analyzed all by strangers who may not even know her name. she's become a symbol, a symbol so powerful the commissioner, roger goodell, this week was forced to respond to the public uproar caused by his initial punishment of rice. rice was suspended for the first two games of the 16-game season and many cried foul. what? two games for allegedly knocking a woman unconscious? goodell admitted, i didn't get it right. and on thursday in an attempt to get it right goodell sent a letter to the owners of the 32 franchises and a memo to all league personnel outlining new nfl rules. a six-game suspension for the first offense and a lifetime ban for the second offense. the policy applies to all incidents involving physical force, not just domestic violence. it also includes sexual assault. given that domestic violence is a serious and life-threatening

issue for women in america, given the egregious and video documented violence perpetrated by rice, given that the initial response seemed tepid, i understand why some are cheering the stiffer penalties. but i would like you to pause for a moment and ask, what is your employer's policy? if you are accused of domestic violence, are they required to wait until you're found guilty or sanction you based on accusation. do nfl players do away when they sign away their contracts. "roger goodell has decided to pass the placing of judgment under his own power as commissioner without any input from the nfl players association. resides under the umbrella of the personal conduct policy." that means goodell has total control over punishment on the basis of his assessment of what happened in a family's personal

life. no one thinks it is a good idea to protect abusers from being held accountable for their viole violent, illegal actions. i wonder why we're so eager to subject this particular group of employees to the whim of their employer's judgment. is it really about protecting women or the symbol that is the nfl? joining me to discuss it, msnbc contributor. the sports edser and co-host of esnn's "numbers never lie" and former nfl quarterback don mcferson. so nice to have you all here. dave, i so appreciate you written that because my team was giving me a hard time. you know, i think more because there's an expectation i would be like, yeah, go get him. sanction him. i don't, i mean, it's the nfl. i don't know that i feel comfortable with them making decisions about domestic

violence. >> and this is yet another example of that. i mean, when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. that's roger goodell's response to this. is to say the nfl should be an instrument of moral judgment, not just for the players, but for america. so, he's treated this like a pr problem, not like a domestic violence problem and i don't think we should take moral advice from a commissioner who does the als bucket challenge while denying his sport has anything to do with from a league that markets a racial slur and takes billions of in corporate welfare while cities crumble. we are in a moral sewer if we're looking to the nfl for moral advice. >> but, dave, they wear pink in october. i mean, come on. but it did feel a little bit like that, jamel. "atlantic" did a piece reporting out of a south carolina newspaper in which they reported that all 46 counties in south carolina have at least one

animal shelter to care for stray dogs. this is from "charleston post currier." 18 domestic violence shelters to help women try to escape abuse. the dog/women thing is troubling, but potentially evidence that we don't take the issue significantly seriously and so maybe the nfl with all of its power and glory and the fact that we're all going to start watching it every week, maybe they could have some good impact, maybe not moral sewer rats. >> i wouldn't quite, i do agree with dave, we shouldn't look at any sports league whether it's nfl or major league baseball whatever sport you want to put in there as being our moral compass. what would the commissioner do? he got publicly shamed into taking action and much like any other person, i would have preferred him get this right away. he clearly didn't. he was very tone deaf and very arrogant at the hall of fame the

speech or the response that he gave to the two-game punishment for ray rice was awful. but it was very clear from this letter that the commissioner began to educate himself about domestic violence, just with the verbiage he used, which was a whole lot different from what his previous rhetoric had been and dave and don, you guys know this as well as i do, when was the last time roger goodell publicly admitted he was wrong on anything. how about this was the first time. >> you asked the question that was a bit of a rhetorical question. what would we prefer david goodell, excuse me, commissioner goodell to do in this moment? >> i think he's doing what we would like to do. he has been having these conversations with folks in the domestic violence community for a number of years. i remember the number of years ago. if you read the letter a number of steps he's taking and not just a lifetime banishment, but

that's what the public wants. we want this, especially in the world of masculinty which is the nfl and the men's response to violence is more violence. right? so, you do bad, we're going to do worse to you. we're going to take away. that brings a whole host of other problems. if you look at the whole piece. he is talking about confidential counseling and a pr issue which i think the nfl doesn't have a domestic violence problem. football has a domestic violence problem and sports in general and that needs to be addressed, the whole story needs to be addressed. it can't just be the nfl because the nfl is benefiting around all the other sports of masculinity and that conversation that i'm asking around sports is at the core of this behavior. >> something useful there and i don't want to miss it. the statistics do demonstrate that there is a higher rate of domestic violence arrests aamong

nfl players than there are among similarly situated young men. domestic violence is sort of substantially higher. >> have access to. >> that's arrests, right? that's in part because we're looking vis-a-vis wealthy people because for active players is zero. that changes a little bit if we change those circumstances. so, there's a part of me that looks at that and says, okay, you have to do something, but as a matter of pure labor law. i am deeply concerned with the idea of employers acting as courts and so on the one hand i look at that and think something must happen and then i worry about how does creating an economic disincentive for telling improve our circumstance? >> you just hit the nail on the head. this creates an incentive, this new rule for survivors of domestic violence to not come forward. if you know that your partner or husband or spouse becomes

economically penalized because of his behavior towards you that will give you a second doubt of going forward. the policy might look strong on the surface. a disincentive for women to come forward who are subjected to this. by the way, to your point, we also know, so, football sunday is also the day when incidents of domestic violence across the country go up. it's not just about the players, but what is the impact of the sport on any given sunday on women every week. >> apparently it is specifically related to, i was looking on social science on upset wins. if you are the fan of the team that was meant to have won, the likelihood in that community in that town of domestic violence going up when there is an upset win increases. but i think this point, we'll talk about it as soon as we get back. the incentives it creates about whether or not

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. have a conclusion to thursday's statement by roger goodell is what seems like a fairly innocuous boiler plate language quoting from all league personnel. "if you believe that you or someone you know may be at risk of domestic violence or other misconduct we strongly encourage you to seek assistance through your club's director of player engagement, human resources department or the nfl lifeline or an independent local domestic violence resource." i am still left wondering if the commissioner gets it. >> yeah, there is still this aspect to it which is disturbing

about roger goodell acting like commissioner kipling. he is this corporate white father overseeing a league to a con, majority white country that loves this sport. i mean, the nfl is like the tent pole that is holding up broadcast television right now and he's responding to a demand by fans to show that he has control over these barely contained barbarians on the field that are giving people their three hours of cumodified violence every sunday. i think when you, it has black masculinity. >> for me, as i'm looking at this, i'm thinking, all right, what is the language then you put at the end of that? and my first thought is, all right, you tell people, don't call the nfl if you think you have been victimized by violence. do what you do, you call police. of course, we have been spending a lot of time talking about the problems of calling the police. i want to take us all the way

back to another moment in which someone who was being victimized by another nfl player calls the police. i just want to listen for a moment. >> can you get someone over here n now. he's o.j. simpson, i think you know his record. can you just send somebody over here? >> that moment in which he says, look, he's o.j. simpson. you're going to know what he looks like and you know his record. i want to remind folks that ray rice and his now wife went and met with the nfl after this event before the two-game suspension and has been criticized. there was an article criticizing that moment of their meeting in part because if i'm sitting with your employer, what am i going to say? >> right. >> what am i going to say in that moment? >> that's when you can tell he really didn't get it. nor did the baltimore ravens when they had that press

conference. someone who has committed a violent act against a woman having a press conference with the woman next to him and her trying to explain her role in this. >> everything about that. >> everything about that was sickening. for roger goodell to even admit his post-punishment that part of the reason why he decided or came to the conclusion it was a two-game suspension was because her sort of pleading with roger goodell not to take away her husband's livelihood. your input is completely irrelevant because that's not what this is about. so, for him to do, to go from that to this letter, that's a sharp 180 and i know you mentioned that you had talked to roger goodell before and he had met with advocates against domestic violence. i can't believe it based on how that went down. >> the way that went down for me felt like, i think this goes back to your point, dave. that what i guess, i'm still pondering your question. what i want him to say is this

domestic violence question that is facing the nfl begins long before these young men become nfl players and it has everything to do with masculinity and head injuries and as a result of masculinity and head injuries this is part, and what we expect from the violence on this field. so, is there a way to have football, to have the football that i love and not have it take it toll on the bodies of women? >> you know, i talk to coaches all the time about these issues and not nfl coaches but college, high school coaches and the title of you throw like a girl. you heard me say this before. that's the language we hear in sports. if your son threw like a girl, would you do something about it? i am not going to make my son better by degrading my daughter. we in sports and sports establishment uses this violent masculinity and using around the masculinity and as i said

earlier, we have to address that issue in sports. we can make our sons better football players and safe football players and we can do it without being at the expense of our daughters. that's the challenge that is incumbent upon us in the sports establishment and address the fundamental things learned at a very early age that find themselves in the nfl. >> football left to its own devices cannot exist independently of violence against women. it takes the active intervention of authority figures, of people who are in this world that validates violence and validates a certain kind of masculinity and speaks to them openly about violence against women. without that, alopnalone, a str going in the direction -- >> we talked a lot about the gender piece. i don't want to miss the race piece that you gave us a little of. part of what i see for mrs. rice both in that moment a domestic violence survivor and also we

know that african-american women in particular as sexual assault survivors and domestic violence survivors are less likely to call anyone because we recognize how difficult circumstances are for the men in our community and we don't want to be part of criminalizing these men in our community. we will literally take it rather than tell. >> you're bringing in the context here. what is the context? why is there a greater mistrust. why would a black woman be less likely to call the police in a situation of domestic violence. that's one context here. the other is, i think dave points this out. this is a league marketing itself to women. it seems as a pr problem and not as a domestic violence problem. as long as it sees it as a pr problem, not much that actually changes in terms of the behavior of not just players, but all men in regards to women. >> stick with us. i do want to bring in one more major issue and we talked also about here on the show, and that is the way in which head

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i did not know what it was like to be a non-smoker. but i do now. ask your doctor if chantix is right for you. want to read to you a piece of david's piece criticizing the domestic policies. "but perhaps most glaringly, the plan is missing any conversation about what role the combat of the game itself and the ill effects of head injuries may play in bringing the violence home slogan should be hate the player, don't hate the game." i also don't want to stop watching, dave. i seriously love this sport. there may be some way to intervene, but i do think we're going to have to talk about head injuries here. talk about javane becoming a

murderer and then committing suicide. that suggests at least the possibility of something else going on beyond cultural. >> andrew perkins, the mother of his child, the way i think that people can understand the nfl best as it operates as a business is the fact that they're going to be penalizing players for using ethnic slurs on the field this year while defending the name of the washington football team side by side. so, it is a sport that when it needs to do something, it goes after the players, but it will not look at itself institutionally. anything that threatens its bottom line. to me ethe violence against women football players is intrinzically tied to we know whau what happens to player and head injuries. theability to have patience and calm down and listen. these are all things that are associated with head trauma. why can we not draw connective tissue between that and violence against loved ones? >> that feels to me, even the economics of what you said there. if you use a racial slur, then the players get, but dan snyder

doesn't, to me, that is part of why i'm so uncomfortable with this new six-game suspension. when we look at the problems of domestic violence and the problem that domestic violence survivors because they're being stopped or because they have medical injuries or because they ehave legal time off and none of these penalties seem to in any way address that. they don't seem to make the world any easier or better for the women who are victimized? >> it's unfortunate because it's a league. i love football as much as anybody and it's a league that's constantly at war with itself because some of the things that we love about the game are not really at odds. they're really at odds for any kind of normal happily functioning lifestyle. of course, i love to see big hits and the combat elrament and the gladiator element that the nfl provides, but it comes at a cost. a huge cost. a huge human cost. so, as a fan, you're constantly

finding yourself as you watch the game making these moral decisions. understanding that as you brought up that the language of football is very anti-women. the language of sport in general is very anti-woman. mike rice at rutgers, some of the language that he was using anti-gay, anti-woman. that is sort of the background that athletes are being raised in. how then can we be comfortable watching a dynamic where you see the washington football team come out there and you know what that name stands for and then you also know that this is one of the storeied franchises in the league. the players themselves, they don't even know how to respond to that. they won't take a stand either. it's very complicated. >> as you sort of help me to remember that these are 22, 23-year-old kids who are playing this game. i'm thinking, don, this is a pollyanna story, now we will have sensitivity training about women and how to treat them and i'm thinking, wait a minute, i

went to an acc school. i know that one of the conversations is going to emerge is, man, they just gave, you know, these women maybe a less nice phrase, a way to blackmail us. like, in other words, heightened hostility by creating an economic disincentive and basically suggesting now your intimate partner has the ability to impact your earning potential. >> yeah. you know, the nfl is such an anomaly in our culture. even when you talk about the labor law, even when you talk about what it means and the draft is illegal by labor law. so, there's a total negotiation that has occurred between the players and the league and through our culture, our society in the league. what was sunday? sunday is no longer about church. sunday is about football. right? >> yes. >> so -- >> and about mhp show. >> noon, 1:00, it's all what it

is about. so, we have to look at, we have to really take the nfl and kind of put it into its own little box and see how it's trying to govern itself. but we till have to look at this larger issue. when you talk about now mandatory arrest law in domestic violence cases. that's 20 years old because we know that women are not going to call because they don't want their man taken away. not just an nfl issue we're seeing now. even a head issue problem, i don't see this as part of it. when i look at they're finding body parts of women, we don't say the perpetrator has head injuries. when we look at the retraining orders in this county alone, it's not because you have nfl guys that live in manhattan who have head injuries. this is a big, social issue that we're trying to pick apart and it is because we are fans of these guys. we don't care that ray rice is an abuser. we cheer for ray rice and we want him to entertain us on sunday afternoon. >> we prefer that he's an abuser

of other men on the field in that moment. right, we may not necessarily be cheering his abuse of his fiancee and then wife but we cheer his physicality of abuse of other men. i want to take this masculinity question a little further. michael sam's bid fell a bit short. we'll look at what that means for him and for the league. [ female announcer ] this allergy season, will you be a sound sleeper, or a mouth breather? a mouth breather! [ whimpers ] how do you sleep like that? well, put on a breathe right strip and shut your mouth. allergy medicines open your nose over time, but add a breathe right strip and pow! it instantly opens your nose up to 38% more.

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a new catalytic converter when all you got is a loose gas cap. what? it is that simple sometimes. thanks. now let's take this puppy over to midas and get you some of the good 'ol midas touch. hey you know what? i'll drive! and i have no feet... i really didn't think this through. trust the midas touch. for brakes, tires, oil, everything. (whistling) michael sam will not be the first openly gay player on an opening day active roster. at least not yet. in may the university of missouri graduate became the first openly gay player ever drafted into the nfl. st. louis ramss when all the other teams were required to get their rosters down to 53 players. the rams can put him on his

ten-man practice squad. he will not be in uniforms on sunday. jeff fisher spoke shortly after the announcement was made. >> it was a football desishz and no decision than any other decision we make. a football decision back in may to draft mike and, once again, it's been all about football. >> is this all about football, dave? >> in this case, i guess. the st. louis rams have the best defensive line in the nfl. that's why ii was bummed out when they drafted him. also bummed out because he had a terrific preseason and after he was cut, it was like home phobia christmas on twitter. and i don't think that people, i don't get why people, why sports fans aren't willing to confront, frankly, that there are gay people in every walk of life in our society. the nfl is not this her metically heterosexual space and it never has been and they don't want to talk about something

during the break how contact sports are in our society. they don't want to talk about this. i once interviewed this mma guy and i said, did you ever think about how home -- it's only gay make eye contact. i think about that. you can be as violent as you want to be but any effort of intima intimacy, it's tabu. >> any kind of compassion. it's interesting because that discomfort that you just suggested. we saw it show up a little bit in some espn coverage of, i'm going to look over at you now. i'm going to let you sit over there and drink out of your mhp cup for a moment. we did see some ankegst about this. the angst that came up in the espn coverage about whether or not sam was taking showers with the rest of the team. >> forgive me if there is a bit of an echo in this, but i'm

naked in my shower, you know, as a gay man i have to shower by myself in my own shower because god forbid i might shower with straight guys. there would be some kind of issue there. you're seeing the rams don't care. michael sam doesn't care. i don't care. nobody cares and it's pretty sad that you care that a gay man might be naked in a locker room with a bunch of straight guys. >> i mean for every -- there's so much to say. but for every time any man straight or gay goes to the gym and takes a shower, do they think there are no gay men in the gym that are in the shower with them? right. so, it's the most ridiculous thing that has come, i think, in college and professional sports in a long time. people, there have always been gay men in sports, we've always known this. on the one hand sanction on the field when we see football players slap each other on the

butt but in an intimate space of showers, supposedly it's a problem. the contradiction is ridiculous. >> you know, i guess for me, also, we're using who knows what we're saying when we say it. we're talking about a male-identified sport. it's considered more valuable than femaleness to throw like a girl and to be associated with girlness or womenness is to be soft. and, therefore, not as good a player. there is a single sex valuation of maleness that just is in this and you do wonder then sort of why we still have such difficulty in media or in sport imagining, you know, the possibility that we're engaged across sexual orientation. >> because we've never had to talk about it. what michael sam has done.

forced ho homeoo phobic people talk about it. called the washington players a little monkey. look at that little monkey go. what, you called the black man a monkey. he looked like this little guy running. so, white peephole to learn how to talk about in the '70s when they took a more prominent place. talked about the long muscles and, so, they had to get comfortable with the right language, that sounds right and goes right down to your base fears or your racism or in this case your homophobia. and so that's why the comments because they're uncomfortable with that most understanding of their homophobia. >> that's the power of sports, too, i'm sorry. >> it is. but i would say from this

standpoint, this is where we should take a page, much like with most of society from women. have you ever heard any wnba player, any women's college player complain. >> panicked about what happens in the locker room and what might occur in the shower? and i think in general for men, this is where i do feel sorry for how you all have been conditioned. it is this idea that you can't talk about something being intimate. you have to hide all your real feelings and do all these things to sort of mask and overmaskulate yourselves and women have not been conditioned that way. hence why we can handle britney greiner about to marry her partner and all these other issues and that never comes pup. >> not a threat that someone who is a same-sex loving woman in the shower with you is somehow threatening to your womanhood. >> men have been conditioned. when you have a gay man in a situation where he's in a locker room, a lot of straight men are thinking, oh, well, he thinks like a predator like i do, he

must be looking at me that way. >> right. >> looks at how they have been conditioned. >> has not grown in any way. if you look at women and moving into sports and politics and media and all the places that women have expanded the definition and see broader human beings. >> people should read the work of jamale's colleague who has written about the different ways in which home ophobia operates in women's sports, which is certainly different, but it is prevalent and much more open and discussed than in men's sports. but that also means it can be challenged more easily because it's right there on the table. >> as we were discussing the nfl's new domestic violence penalties, reports of a new arrest emerged. an nbc bay area reporter ray mcdonald of the san francisco 49ers charging him with domestic violence. how this unfolds and the nfl handles the first incident since the new penalties were

announced. up next, a lesson in betting against the underdog and later the game changing ruling that affects college athlete conversation. what's up jake? that depends man, what are you doing? just cruising around in my new ride. oh, the one i'm not suppose to touch, right? you got it. guess what i'm touching it right now, craig. what you talkin about jake? with my voice. that doesn't make any sense. you let me in man, by answering and i like it in here. you're not touching it! touch is physical, your voice isn't physical. my sound waves are pouring out of your speakers, penetrating every cubic inch... stop disrespecting her! ooh and the dodge likes it. don't you dart? gets your filthy voice off her jake! thank ythank you for defendiyour sacrifice. and thank you for your bravery. thank you colonel. thank you daddy. military families are uniquely thankful for many things, the legacy of usaa auto insurance can be one of them. if you're a current or former military member or their family, get an auto insurance quote

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professional football is not the only gridiron action with high stakes. a furniture store is doling out a million dollars as part of a sales promotion. ashley furniture store in college station, texas, offered to reimburse all purchases made over a 12-day span, if texas a&m won their season opener by ten or more points. you see, the aggies were underdogs, the university of south carolina gamecocks favored to win by 10.5 points. that is not what happened. much to the chagrin of nerdland senior producer and south carolina native shana till. it was the aggies that won and now the furniture store must pay up. the store says more than 600

customers bought furniture in that promotional window, running up a bill of more than $1 million. don't worry too much about the company's bottom line, the store did have insurance for the promotion. so, these happy fans are getting paid. but what about the college athletes? up next, the landmark ruling that is a game changer for student athletes. ♪ ♪ it's time to bring it out in the open. it's time to drop your pants for underwareness, a cause to support the over 65 million people who may need depend underwear. show them they're not alone and show off a pair of depend. because wearing a different kind of underwear, is no big deal. join us. support the cause and get a free sample of depend

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earlier this month, a ruling in a landmark case struck down the ncaa long health claim that amateurism in college sports that is the notion that players are students first and athletes second justified its rules preventing players from getting their share of the multi-billion dollar college sports industry. which means for the first time college athletes will enjoy the financial fruits of their labors. following a three-week trial claudia wilkins side would the plaintiff. issued an injunction that lists the ncaa ban on payments to players for the commercial use

of their names, images and likenesses. in a 99-page decision, judge wilkin wrote "the court finds that the challenged ncaa rules unreasonably restrain trade in the market for certain educational and athletic opportunities offered by ncaa division i schools. could be achieved through less restrictive means." judge wilkin did allow the ncaa one small victory among the big loss the less restrictive means. the injunction allows the ncaa sending payments to players at no less than $5,000 per year and defer payment until the players graduate or leave school? how big is it for college sports? >> i think it's big, however, people have to understand that as big as it is, i'm not sure if this is the one thing that will topple rome. >> rome being the ncaa. >> rome being the ncaa. part of the ncaa problem is it's

one thing to be greedy, but they took it to another level. because they weren't willing to compromise on small things such as this. if you have a tim tebow who is making tim tebow making millions and millions of dollars and marketing a video game with eye black with his biblical skrip turs all underneath, we know that's tim tebow. they didn't want to share anything. now they've been put in this place where all of a sudden their greed is going to -- it's going to completely change the face of college athletics. no, you shouldn't make players sign away their likeness as part of their scholarship. that's ridiculous. this is just one. there's another ruling that i think will be far more important. had they gone to an olympic model, let them make on their name, they wouldn't be in this position now. >> there was another decision made 24 hours prior to the judge's decision, that was board

of the top five biggest conferences govern themselves. because we're not talking about the quinnipiacs of this world who are part of the business of college sports who are at the heart of the name and image and likeness. the tim tebows and thousands who play college football. people need to understand the ncaa makes 90% of its revenue from the basketball side of the shop. the conferences in football driving this whole conversation because that's where money is made. those power five conferences can govern themselves which is far more than just a stipend. including letting more student athletes on campus who can't survive the academic rigors. >> they give away the game by cutting this deal at the power five conferences. the ncaa, without saying so, has surrendered the argument.

if a player can make $5,000, why not $10,000? why not $15,000? who decides it's $5,000 and for what reason? when the smoke clears you see this is about men's basketball and men's football and it's about truly the organized theft of young black wealth by an organization called the ncaa. and that is something that's going to change in the next generation. >> two things i want to try to understand, especially for someone who just returned to their ac schoc school. if it's about men's football and basketball, at what point is there consideration for women's basketball and potentially other sports? >> legal experts say this operating independent of title 9 because title 9 is equal access. it's not your ability to market yourself as if the ncaa created almost a constitution-free zone where you don't have the right to your image or signature. people have big debates about

this but this shouldn't be something that affects title 9 at all. >> the second question. does this mean the thing we think of as college sports, guys who get recruited, who play on these teams, who go to school, who end up with a degree at the end, that's over. now we'll have semiprofessional leagues that are attached to the universities or not attached to the universities? >> that's a part i think i worry about. the one thing that has allowed college sports to thrive is emotional manipulation. i went to michigan state. your school and your school. i feel strongly and passionate about my university. those were the best times of my life. for most people, that's what it was. the thing that draws you to the game is the illusion they're doing this for the same reason you love your school. so, if you take they'll lugs away, what is it that separates the college player from the nfl player or college football from the nfl or college basketball from the nba? there will be no more separation. not to mention, it's for the nfl

a free feeder system. so if that's the case, why do we even have the rule you have to wait flee years from the time you graduate to high school to get to the nfl? that needs to be nonexistent, too. >> i was an athlete masquerading as a student. that reality is what we're coming to grips with now. this is one of several cracks in the $16 million a year ncaa industry. when you have this along with players at northwestern football players voting to unionize, it raises the fundamental question, are these students, employees, what are they entitled to capture some of the value they create as part of -- >> so, they could be employees and also students? >> yes. >> you could imagine what they -- they're titled as employees, paid bit university or paid some sort of profit sharing or benefiting from the likenesses, but that there is --

as there is at some places -- employee remission of tuition so if you work at this university, you can also attend this university for some lower cost. >> can i just play's devil advocate? part of the argument is business people, who want to look at it from a business aspect or legal aspect, forced the ncaa to get into this pay or don't play. the enterprise is education. and by all this entire argument, we've already said that we don't care if these young men get educat educated. the reality is my scholarship at syracuse, in today's dollars, is $300,000. my parents can't afford that. my scholarship at syracuse university is $300,000 and i came out of it debt-free. when you talk about student loan debt, the next crisis in our economy, these kids aren't being exploited.

they are getting an opportunity, because the education is worth more than an nfl contract any day. >> i'm rooting for the new orleans saints in football and every demon deacon thing i've heard on the planet. >> screaming demon. >> i am, at the core of my school. i want to thank my guests. before i go, i also want to acknowledge friday marked nine years since the catastrophic levee failure in the aftermath of hurricane katrina that ravaged new orleans. more than 1800 people across the gulf coast died. more than 80% of the city's homes were damaged and whole communities were displaced. for days people watched in shock and sadness as floodwaters swamped the iconic city and thousands were left trapped in their homes, on the roof or superdome and convention center without running water or power. nine years later new orleans is a city still struggling but on

the end. the issues raised by katrina are still part of the national conversation. nine years later we know the determination and resilience of new orleanians have made significant recovery possible but the struggle continues and we still love our saints. that's our show for today. thanks to you at home for watching. i'll see you next saturday at 10 a.m. next up "weekends with alex witt." this is bill. his doubleheader day at the park starts with back pain... and a choice. take 4 advil in a day or just 2 aleve for all day relief. peanuts! peanuts! crowd cheers! when your favorite food starts a fight fight back fast with tums. relief that neutralizes acid on contact... ...and goes to work in seconds. ♪ tum, tum tum tum tums! try great tasting tums chewy delights. yummy.

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