chris jansing. we know pressure has been building for the white house to take action to deal with this growing threat. how much does the possibility of radicalized americans coming back to mount an attack play into that? >> well, we heard a lot about that from members of congress over the weekend. obviously, there is a serious concern, while there aren't believed to be anywhere nir the number of americans as there are europeans who have been radicalized, the estimate is it could be between 70 and 100. the concern is you have an american going over there getting trained and coming back and possibly mounting an attack. it's very important to say that there is no intelligence suggesting that anything is imminent, that this is going to happen. but the threat, obviously, is real enough that you saw the prime minister cameron making these proposals. the uk already has measures in place to revoke passports. we've seen that over the last month or so. they've revoked dozens of passports. this is a step even further. there are many people in

congress who believe even those who are pushing the president to do even more, that it may not take new laws but existing terror laws could be applied in these cases to see that radicalized americans don't get too and from syria. the other problem is intelligence and that is really pinpou dlt pinpointing the people who are potentially folks who would go over, come back and pose a threat to the united states. that's another major focus that both congress and this white house are looking at. >> the president is heading to wales for nato meetings later this week. what is the white house hoping to accomplish there. >> look, they want to build a coalition. this has been the president's m.o. from the very beginning. you heard the criticism of him over the weekend that maybe he wasn't moving swiftly enough. he is a very measured person and he always wants to see who else can be brought into the fold. so both on the issue of isis and on the concern that's growing about russia movements inside of eastern ukraine. he is looking to build a coalition. he is looking for support in

some cases, financial support, diplomatic support. and military support as well. >> thank you, chris. joining me now with more is nbc news chief global correspondent bill neily and jake jacobs. thank you both for being with us. bill, let's start with you. just how powerful would these new laws be and what else did you hear from the president you thought was most interesting. >> david cameron said these would not be sweeping powers but clearly he said urgent action was required to deal with the hundreds of british citizens now traveling to iraq and syria to fight not just with isis but with al qaeda-related groups. british intelligence reckons about 500 people have traveled to either one of the two countries. it's thought 30 to 40 britons have actually been killed in action. that's been documented. around 200 there. around 250 have actually come back to the uk and those are the

ones british intelligence are looking at most closely. david cameron outlining three areas. how do you prevent people going in the first place. more powers to the police to stop and search them at british borders and confiscate passports. remember the british police already does that to soccer hooligans who are going to go abroad to cause trouble so obviously it's logical to do that to people who are going to fight in syria and iraq. secondly, and most important lie, preventing those people coming back into the uk. that's another of the argument. it's also illegal under international law to make someone stateless. you can't just revoke their british citizenship that easily. and thirdly, to monitor people more closely when they are within the uk. so there's a balance here, mr. cameron trying to strike between protecting civil liberties and protecting the country. one other thing that he did mention, which is interesting, it's not just britain. it's not just europe.

it's the west he mentioned in particular france and germany. he said 700 people had gone from france to fight for isis in iraq and in syria and 400 germans including five who have blown themselves up as suicide bombers in recent weeks. this is not just a british or european problem. it's a pan-western issue. >> colonel jack, i want to talk about that and expand on that just a little bit here because the fact that david cameron is trying to pass new laws to tighten things up on people who are going over to syria and places like that to fight, what about the fact that isis is so effective in recruiting young people from western civilizations? how are they doing this? >> well, these are disaffected people. large proportion of muslims in western europe are disaffected because they are economically disadvantaged and not integrated into the political or economic system. and it's extremely difficult to recruit them into the -- into

isis. furthermore, you have the added problem in europe of having effectively no borders. it's one thing for prime minister cameron to say we're going to put constraints on the ability of people to travel but you get into europe. you can go anywhere in europe. our borders are porous. they don't have any borders. the problem is much bigger for europe than -- >> as far as recruiting, is that you'll see something governments are cracking down on, trying to keep a closer eye on. >> we need much better intelligence than we have. >> they are obviously getting hold of so many hundreds if not thousands of young people. >> communication is easy these days. the social media makes it easy to find people for people who are disaffected to get involved in all of this. you aren't going to -- if you believe in free speech, you'll not be able to crack down on this sort of thing. so the long-term problem can be solved ultimately but it's going to take a long time. increase the ability of people

to participate in the economic and political systems. over a short period of time it's going to be extremely difficult to crack down on this. >> i also want to ask you about the images that came out of libya this weekend. i want to show you some video which has not yet been authenticated but it apirs to be the u.s. embassy residential compound in tripoli. it was abandoned in july when the american embassy pulled out because of the heightened violence there. the video posted on youtube shows men with guns jumping into the pole bullet holes dotting the compound. what do you think about this? how dire is this situation in libya? >> the situation in libya is very dire indeed. the men of that militia are -- that's one of hundreds of militias in libya. the country is fractured. there are rival governments, not just rival militias. those men took over the accommodation annex of the u.s.

embassy. important to say it wasn't the main compound which is in the hands of another group of men more closely allied to libya's actual government. but the government itself relies an militias so much that it's almost impossible to draw a clear line between them. obviously, it is causing some concern that yet again, a u.s. facility in libya has been overrun. remember almost two years since the killing of ambassador chris stevens and three other americans three years after the fall of colonel gadhafi which was meant to, we thought, usher in a period of stability. libya is not stable. it's anything but. it is in utter turmoil. >> bill neely and colonel jack jacobs, thank you so much. the trial of former virginia governor bob mcdonnell. the jury deliberations resume this week. we'll talk about what happens next. and 49er ray mcdonald is arrested and charged with domestic violence. will he be the first to face the nfl's tough new penalties. i'm type e.

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welcome whack. we're following several political stories this labor day. tomorrow the jury in the case of former virginia governor bob mcdonnell continues deliberations. the former gop governor and his wife were brought up on federal corruption charges with the case receiving national attention because of lurid details about the former first couple's marriage including allegations the virginia first lady had a crush on a welts wealthy donor. philip bump is a political reporter with "the washington post" and katie glick covers politics for politico. katie, let's start with you. jury deliberation continues tomorrow on whether he illegally accepted gifts for favors in office. do you think the defense did enough to put doubt in jurors' minds here? >> thanks very much for having me. that's exactly the key issue

here is there reasonable doubt concerning whether the governor at the time traded official government favors for more than $165,000 worth of gifts and loans to this virginia businessman. you know the strategy has really been to put a whole lot of the blame on governor mcdonnell's wife maureen mcdonnell to say she's the one involved, really at the heart of these dealings with johnny williams, this virginia businessman. she and the governor weren't really talking at the time because their marriage was a mess is kind of the argument the defense makes. and so he couldn't have been involved in kind of the bulk of these dealings with jonnie williams. the question is whether the jury buys the two of them weren't speaking to each other or weren't interacting enough for him to have been involved. >> philip, mcdonnell says what he did was not illegal, just politics. with the approval rating of what most politicians have right now is that an argument you think

most people will buy? >> i think that the standard that's being applied in virginia is fascinating for a variety of reasons, including the fact that virginia has very lax ethsic laws. he can receive gifts of enormous value as long as he reports he received the gift. the status for quid pro quo in virginia is a lot different than in other states. the jury was instructed it didn't have to be explicit quid pro quo but rather that they could -- there could be an appearance that he was being given gifts in exchange for things. in terms of how popular politicians are, i think that there's -- it's going to be hard for people to have a lower opinion of politicians. and i think that when the jury, which is looking at this differently obviously than the rest of the country is looking at the actual facts of the case, they'll hold him to a different standard than the rest of the country does. the rest of the cannot has weighed in and sees this all as being an example of the bad politics that's pervasive in the united states. >> i want to switch over to the november midterms. i want to play you something that vice president biden said

in a speech on income inequality just a short time ago. let's listen to that. >> one of the reasons we're not growing because ordinary people have no money in their pockets for their wages. they are not being rewarded. >> later today, president obama is expected to discuss the minimum wage in a speech in milwaukee. will the income inequality argument be enough for democrats to hold the senate? >> no. the electorate that's going to be turning out this november is almost certainly going to be one that favors republicans. all the polling suggests that there is an enthusiasm gap that it's not as big as it was in 2010 but republicans are more motivated to come out and vote. they are interested in paying attention to what's happening in the election. what the president -- not to be callous, but they are hoping to get people motivated. go out and vote. these are the important issues

at stake. it's a high bar. people generally aren't interested in voting in midterm elections and it's going to be mostly republicans that come out to vote which means it's mostly going to be republicans controlling the senate. >> my thanks to both of you for joining us. katie, one more question to you, if we still have time. do we? i'm sorry. my thanks to both of you for coming in. days after the nfl announced tough new penalties for domestic violence. 49er ray mcdonald has been arrested for domestic violence. will he be the first big test? and the family of joan rivers says they have their fingers crossed. the latest an her condition is up next. but the energy bp produces up here creates something else as well: jobs all over america. engineering and innovation jobs. advanced safety systems & technology. shipping and manufacturing. across the united states, bp supports more than a quarter million jobs. when we set up operation in one part of the country,

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like this it hurt across here. when i went to the doctor and said what's happening to me his first question was "did you have chickenpox?" i didn't even really know what shingles was. i thought it was something that, you know, old people got. i didn't want to have clothes on. i didn't want to have clothes off. if someone asked me "let's go dancing" that would have been impossible. you are looking at live pictures from andrews air force base. the president is about to board air force one to professional to milwaukee. he'll be giving a speech there in the 2:00 p.m. eastern hour about raising the minimum wage. we'll carry that live here an

msnbc. it is still not clear how the nfl will respond after a san francisco 49er was arrested on domestic violence charges. it happened over the weekend just days after the nfl announced its new tougher policy on domestic violence. defensive end ray mcdonald faces felly domestic charges after police responded to his home in a neighborhood. he was later released and posted a $25,000 bail. he would not discuss what happened but he did say this as he was walking out of jail. >> can't say too much about it right now. want the truth to come out. everybody knows the kind of person i am. >> kasha kennedy joins us now. does this happen if a player is only charged or eventually when a player is found guilty? >> it's a really good question.

the letter is intentionally vague. it's whether they violate the personal conduct policy of the nfl. so it did not mandate a conviction. ray rice was never convicted. he plead not guilty and entered an intervention program but still suffered some consequences from the league. so they'll not just jump immediately as soon as -- they'll there play out to some degree and just make sure because somebody could be falsely accused but it certainly does not require a conviction for them to take action. >> does it say anything in particular about the nfl as an organization that the fact that they have to address this so specifically because it is clearly happened more than once and they are afraid it's going to happen again to the point they realize they have to have tougher penalties because of it. >> no question. any kind of violent crime and domestic violence in particular is -- one incident is too many. and to have a series of

incidents, exactly the kind of image issue that the nfl did not want. no organization would want. and they have to attack it. the letter from roger goodell, a lot of it, while it did talk about the punishment, was about preintervention. about trying to prevent this. about educating people. so they are taking this really seriously, and they know what repercussions could be if they don't. >> do you think it's because it's more prevalent in a sport like this? >> statistically, nfl players are less likely to commit incidents of domestic violence. significantly less likely. but at the same time, you aren't seeing this as much in baseball. you aren't seeing this in high profile situations. i think the fact that they are famous people who are on television and it's a very violent game. ray mcdonald, 6'3", 290 pounds. and when issues of domestic violence come up with these men who make their living in a very violent way and very

high-profile way, they are held to a higher standard and should be. >> do you think that incidents like this and others like it, do you think that it damages the image of an organization like the nfl? >> no question. and every one of these -- if somebody we've never heard of all the time are getting locked up for domestuc violence sadly, but it certainly does because it plays against what you want to seem like a family -- we play on sundays. this is great for everybody. come be part of the nfl family and these kind of things happen. and a lot of other work that might be done behind the scenes to try to build community can get undone very quickly with a few of these incidents. >> thank you very much. >> my pleasure. comedienne joan rivers remains hospitalized in a new york city hospital. her daughter melissa rivers released a statement yesterday saying, quote, we are keeping our fingers crossed. the 81-year-old rivers stopped breathing during throat surgery thursday in new york city and suffered cardiac arrest during that procedure. she remains in critical

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this is holly. her long day of outdoor adventure starts with knee pain. and a ch her long d take 6 tylenol in a day or just 2 aleve for all day relief. onward! the deadly ebola outbreak is now spreading to african cities. earlier today, liberia's president ordered most government workers to stay home another month in order to stop the spread of that virus. meanwhile, a student in senegal tested positive for ebola making it the fifth african country affected by the outbreak. up to 20,000 people may contract the virus before it's brought under control. that process could take about six months. joining me now is dr. robert celada from the university hospital's case medical center in cleveland. sorry. that was hard for me to get out. thank you for coming to see us

today. what makes this outbreak so much deadlier than previous ebola outbreaks? >> so part of it is that with travel as it is, and people fleeing areas of concern where the infection is occurring, this has led to spread. and i think that's one of the themes we see in any potential infectious disease outbreak. in addition, i think the medical infrastructure in west africa has been different from places where eboila outbreaks have occurred primarily in central and eastern africa before. that said, because of the poor infrastructure and the hospital settings, the initial failure to recognize cases and some of the practices that occurred during burial rites, et cetera. ebola is spread through very close contact. this has really led to the continued spread of infection. >> we're seeing that ebola is

spreading to maurge cities. will that increase the pace of the spread? >> because of the population densities in these large urban areas, it certainly can add to this. and that will underscore the concern that the world health organization has related to levels of infected folks of 20,000 in the next several months. right now we're at a count of about 3,000 but, remember, that is laboratory confirmed or suspected cases. many families are keeping ill individuals at home because of the stigma and because of access issues and because of that, this number probably represents a gross underestimate of the true level of infection in west africa. >> let's talk about vaccines. given the fact families are in fact doing that, plus vaccine availability, what will it actually take for vaccines to become available to more

patients? >> there's a process where we take that -- vaccines or any new drugs through different phases of testing. the vaccine that will be pushed out and was announced in the last several days by the national institutes of health is one that will be taken in a so-called phase one trial. this is an otherwise healthy individuals, not in the areas of concern right now. but that needs to be done to establish certainly safety, tolerance, as well as some read out on how effectative is in stimulating the immune system. once that is shown in a relatively short period because it's estimated that about 20 individuals will serve as the initial group for vaccination. that will be taken to a higher level called phase two and that can include some individuals who are at risk for or already are infected. we hope that this vaccine, not only will be helpful

preventatively but in the aftermath of infection to change the course of the disease. phase three would be the level at which broad use of the vaccine would be employed in populations that are in the areas of concern. and the manufacturers of the vaccine have pledged that they will start to produce this in a major way and make this available to the individuals currently faced with such a devastating outbreak at this time. >> let's talk about the concern about medical care for these patients that are receiving it right now. has the death of leading doctors deterred other doctors and possibly nurses as well from going there to help out? >> in the infectious disease group, and institutes around the world, there's been some petition for people to get involved on the front lines. but this has to be balanced by the concern for infection that's already occurred in health care workers, and that should not be

underestimated. on the other hand, i think one of the things that really is the big push right now until either drugs or vaccine become available for use here is increasing and making more efficient the infrastructure in their hospital systems. that has to be centralized. that's being done with the world health organization that our own center for disease control, european groups and i think that will be the big push in the next several weeks to make sure that there are adequate supplies. we've heard of the lack of things like gloves and other protective personal measures for health care workers. and i think all of that has to come into play in order for us to try to contain this. now isolating these patients is important from others that are not infected. and there lawyer many attempts, not only to improve the

infection control measures but to improve the medical care, conditions on the front lines, as well as vigorously look for treatments and/or vaccines. >> doctor, we'll have to leave it there but thank you forring by being with us today. president obama is missing a self-imposed immigration deadline. he said he'd act by the end of summer after receiving recommendations from the attorney general and the department of homeland security. alan gomez, usa today immigration reporter joins me now. are you surprised the president does not have these recommendations from his team yet? >> no. i mean, if you look at the last month that they've had in the white house, it's been -- they've obviously been pretty busy. between everything happening with iraq and now the protests in ferguson, that's was a lot of their focus for the last month or so. but the other thing is, they are working on this. they've been working on this for quite a while. but there might be something else at play here. the election is coming up. really factor into their

possibly delaying this decision. >> do you think the president will take executive action before november or do you see him delaying until after the midterm elections? >> this is where it gets really complicated. the president has been saying that he wants to get something done. congress didn't pass anything. he wants to get something done on his own. he imposed this end of summer deadline to do it, and the thinking was this would get him going on immigration. get him an the right side of it, get him pushing for a big solution to immigration. but what he's hearing a lot now is when you look at that election that's coming up, this isn't an issue about, you know, hispanics and an entire nation voting to support him or anything like that. this is broken down into different states. the democrats are really struggling to hold on to the senate. when you look at these close races in a lot of states like arkansas, alaska, there's not a lot of hispanics in those states. four, five, six, seven, eight percent of the population in

those states are hispanics. if he pushes a huge immigration bill what the republicans will deem as amnesty. they legalize a lot of undocumented immigrants in this country, a lot of those senators are worried about the republican backlash and they are worried about losing their seats. >> what do you think an executive action would look like and do you thing president would risk political capital if he decides to do that? >> well, he absolutely will risk political capital. by doing this it virtually ensures there's no way that any sort of broad immigration reform passes through congress in the last two years of his presidency. the republicans already very suspicious of him and don't trust him to enforce immigration. if he goes ahead and does something like this we can pretty much assume that nothing is going to get done in congress for the next few years. beyond that, he is facing a very difficult situation here. and so he is considering legalizing one, two, three, four, 5 million undocumented immigrants. a lot of parents of young undocumented immigrants who already have been allowed to

stay here. he's thinking about making changes to make it easier for business owners to bring foreign workers into the country. he's thinking about changes to border security, changes to the way that we deport people who are already here. so a lot of these unaccompanied minors we've seen rushing across the border, that's one thing he can speed fup if he wanted to. there's a broad away of options. but that key one, that idea of allowing millions of undocumented immigrants to stay in this country without any fear of deportation, that's the one that's really going to get the republicans very upset with them and what's going to make it virtually impossible for him to do anything in the next congress on immigration reform. >> thank you, alan gomez. looking live at a perfect beach day in north carolina. your labor day forecast is next. and the cleanup continues in california a week after an earthquake there. meet technology that could have given napa an early warning. that's coming up. you?

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welcome back to msnbc live. here's a live look at the washington monument where there are bright skies. in d.c., it's rough surf in cape may, new jersey, where folks are trying to enjoy the last days of summer. but it's not the labor day many americans were hoping for. millions are in the path of severe weather today as a cold front advances from the chicago area to the northeast. yesterday storms brought damaging winds and large hail to parts of iowa, nebraska and kansas. joining me now, meteorologist jeannette. >> we expect to see the threat for severe weather in sections of the midwest. also in sections of the southern plains. it's going to be another hazy, hot and humid day with the threat for some scattered thunderstorms in the eefast. here's a look at a cold front moving from the chicago area toward the northeast. that's going to be tapping into a lot of moisture coming up from the gulf of mexico. thunderstorms currently pushing across southern missouri and another area of thunderstorms in sections of lower michigan.

here's a look at the severe weather threat today. anywhere from detroit to indianapolis and down towards southern sections of missouri, including northern oklahoma. this corridor here may see thunderstorms capable of producing high winds, hail and few tornadoes can't be ruled out. looks like the severe threat will be great today in sections of southern missouri and northern oklahoma late today into tonight. in the northeast, hazy, hot and humid. look at the temperatures in d.c. we're talking 90s once again. new york city in the 80s. when you factor in the humidity, it's going to feel even hotter. speaking of heat, dry and hot in the southwest. l.a. will see temperatures in the middle 80s. phoenix a high near 110 and thunderstorms once again in the afternoon across the florida peninsula. but pretty typical this time of the year. >> jeanet, thank you. california continues to feel aftershocks one week after last sunday's 6.0 quake that caused an estimated $1 billion in damage in napa valley. there have been 70 aftershocks

recorded since that earthquake.. the latest was felt just yesterday. all this has led to calls for the kind of early warning system that japan and mexico have engineered. at the university of california berkeley, the seismology lab shake alert detected the quake ten seconds before it happened. a warning system that could become the basis for a government-sponsored effort. i'm joined by richard allen from uc berkeley. thank you for being here. my first question is, why haven't we already had a warning system like this put in place if others like mexico and japan already have one. >> no question about it. we in the u.s. here, we're behind when it comes to putting earthquake warning in place. in mexico they built their early warning system in 1991 following the fact that 10,000 people were killed in an earthquake. the system in japan put in place in 2007. these technologies have been around. now admittedly, we needed to improve on them for our specific situation here in the u.s. but we've done that. and we've been demonstrating this system is operating for a

couple of years at this point. i really think now is the time to pull the trigger and to build ourselves a public system. >> how far away are we from that point? >> we have a demonstration system that we're running across california right now. it's doing very well. as demonstrated in the napa earthquake when we got a warning. we do need a public investment or investment for a public system. that's needed to educate people about how to use it but also to improve the infrastructure to make the system more robust and a little faster. every second counts. >> your system gave a ten-second warning napa would have received only a one-second warning. l.a. about 40 to 50 seconds. is any of that really enough to make a real difference? >> absolutely it is. just a second worth of warning is enough time to brace yourself and be mentally ready for the shaking that is about to hit. we've heard in many of the stories from the people who experienced the napa earthquake how much they had no understanding of what was going on. they were disoriented.

they knew they were supposed to drop, cover and hold on but they were so disoriented they didn't. even a fraction of a second warning so that people know there is an earthquake and they can spring into drop, cover and hold is really important. a couple of seconds allows you to get to a safe zone rnd a sturdy table. the things that would reduce the number of injuries in the napa earthquake. and the systems used to automate response. slowing and stopping trains. stopping trains that can be carrying 1,000 people during rush hour from derailing. opening elevators at the closest door so we dont have hundreds of people trapped in skyscrapers in an earthquake. many automated responses we need as well. >> richard allen, thank you. more than three weeks after the deadly shooting of unarmed missouri teenager michael brown, there are still protests going an in ferguson. this afternoon, demonstrators plan to drive on to local highways and halt traffic to mark brown's shooting.

organizers have asked supporters to stop their cars for 4 1/2 minutes at 4:30 p.m. that symbolizes the 4 1/2 hours that michael brown's body reportedly laid in the street after he was killed. this comes after hundreds of protesters, including brown's parents converged on the st. louis suburb on saturday. meanwhile, ferguson police are now using body cameras which allow them to capture saturday's protests. joining me is national breaking news reporter at "usa today," yamish. do you see any signs of protest letting up at this point? >> i don't. i think this is -- we're talking about now almost three weeks after michael brown was killed and people are still taking to the streets. we see dozens, hundreds of people showing up. even though it now is peaceful, we don't see people saying, okay, we'll wait until the grand jury comes back and we'll figure that out. people are still stick with this and people are still passionate because you talked about that halting traffic for 4 1/2 hours. the people i talked to on the ground said i saw his body

laying there. he's not resting in peace. i'm not going home. so i think people are very much traumatized by what they saw and enraged by the fact this officer has not really been arrested yet. >> one of the initial demands by protesters was the use of body cameras by police officers and now they are. so what other demands are they now hoping for. hoping the police in the community will meet by protesting -- by continuing with the protests? >> i think what they really want is specific to michael bron's shooting. i think they really want the incident report released. they want to see what that officer told his fellow officers when he was interviewed about what happened at that shooting. i think people really want to see -- frankly, they really want to see the police arrest a fellow police officer, to be frank. i think a lot of the protesters said you can get body cameras. we want you to have body cameras but we also want you to look at this case specifically. also the idea they want more black police officers on there as has been said before. there are only three black officers of on ferguson's police

force and the population is majority african-american. a lot of people want more black officers in that police force and also diversity training. they want people to go through to say this is what you can't do and this is what profiling looks like. a lot of people want the officers to do more than just wear body cameras. >> what about the voters in general. "the new york times" reports only 12% of people voted in the last municipal election. if they want changes like this to happen, are they registered to vote or just not showing up? >> i think a lot of people aren't showing up. i think that's also a registration problem. michael brown's funeral, and the middle of burying this young man, people -- the eulogy, people giving the eulogy were saying we need to learn how to vote and make sure we vote. in the midst of all of this, people in ferguson understand now that this really has to come down to a political change. has to come down to changing their leaders in their minds. i think a lot of people are saying they need to take a poll. so even at a funeral for, you know in the middle of laying someone to rest, they are talking about voting and

political activism. i think voting will be the next step. i think a lot of people, a lot of the politicians said people were just not voting in that community and weren't registering for a list of reasons. but the idea is now that voting is definitely the next thing. >> we know this is not an isolated insdidncideincident. we see a protest in ohio over the killing of john crawford. do you see a nationwide change coming from incidents like these? >> i think when you have the federal government stepping in, eric holder showing up, barack obama talking about this, we're probably going to see some changes nationwide. i can't say that i've seen that change because it's only been a couple of weeks since michael brown has been killed. while people want to say, okay, the rioting and the protesting milwauk make people think twice when something like this happens. when someone gets killed, especially an unarmed black man, people are definitely going to think twice because you had ferguson rioting and looting and all thyself peopese people to t

that people are upset. it's not just michael brown but also the other black men they connect to this. i think you'll see in what i've seen, a nationwide thinking about what happened when someone gets killed in your community that you'll think, i don't want this to be ferguson. i can't see i've seen nationwide a change. it hasn't been long enough to assess that. >> thank you very much. the knee defender strikes again. a second flight has been diverted as frustrated flyers have a spat over space. ♪

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air rage is on the rise. twice in the span of a week, u.s. flights were diverted after fights broke out over reclining seats. the latest escalation came on monday when undercover air marshals were forced to subdue a man who became disruptive after the woman in front of him reclined her seat. the flight en route from miami to paris was diverted to boston.

one day earlier, another fight broke out after a male marriage used a tiny device called the knee defender to block the woman in front of him from reclining. the woman allegedly threw water on his face. so how do you keep the friendly skies friendly? kerry sanders, a very frequent flyer, has some advice. >> reporter: for the airlines, these are the good times. average passenger loads are at over 80% of capacity. but with so few empty seats, the battle for limited overhead space to avoid checked luggage fees, leg room tight, limited even more by bags at your feet and that sometimes battle for the arm rest, it is perhaps no surprise passengers in coach are literally fighting for personal space. it happened twice this week. on wednesday, 61-year-old edmond was taken into custody but released following a fight with a passenger over leg room. the american airlines flight from miami to paris diverted to boston but only after undercover

air marshals broke their cover to end the dispute. and earlier this week, another incident on united airlines where the seat was blocked from reclining with a mechanical device called the knee defender. videos on youtube show the $22 device attaches to the tray table ridgedly locking the seat in front in the upright position. how to avoid these conflicts? etiquette experts say treat strangers an a plane as you'd like to be treated. >> common courtesy on an airplane is just as important as common courtesy anywhere else in society. think of the other person before you think of yourself. >> the passengers who see road rage every day on highways say they now fear flight fights could become the new normal. >> there are a lot of people that are just afraid of flying in germ and then being in these tight spaces and no food and, you know, like it's just -- it's really different from the way it used to be.

>> the way it used to be when flying was something special. today that something special is still available. if you are flying and paying for first class. kerry sand eer erssanders, nbc . >> joining me is the inventor of the knee defender ira goldman. what led you to create the knee defender and did you think it would lead to something like this? >> no, i didn't. as a matter of fact, every knee defender ever sold says be courteous and listen to the flight crew. i'm 6'3" when i sit in my airplane seat in coach just normally sitting, my knees are already hitting the back of the seat in front of me. so there really isn't any space for anybody to recline in front of me whether i've got plastic or not. i figure rather than my knee stopping the seat, pieces of plastic should stop the seat. that's why i invented knee defender. >> the knee defender is not illegal. it is prohibited by all major u.s. airlines, though.

so are you encouraging confrontations with your device, do you think? >> well, actually, i think it's -- the airlines are focusing an the knee defender, but the flight in boston where the man was hit in the knees by the reclining seat, he acted badly, but it did start when he was smacked in the knee by the seat in front of him. the airlines have not addressed anything about maybe trying to fix this problem. one of the flight attendants was quoted saying she sees cracked laptop screens all the time by reclining screens and yet the airlines haven't said word one about maybe they ought to do something about this and protect theirpassengers, protect the things they bring on the plane with them. >> isn't the ability to recline part of having a comfortable flight? one of these was miami to paris. that's a long flight. of course, somebody is going to want to recline their seat. >> absolutely. but if the person behind that other person is -- has long

legs, there's no space. the airlines are selling space for people to sit down with their leg room and they are selling the space for the person in front to recline. they are selling the same space twice. like in the producers. you can't sell the same space twice. the airlines have been trying to get away with it and they have been for years. now there are these confrontations. in 2011 a plane was diverted for a flight back to dulles because of a fight over a reclining seat. >> i understand that you have a knee defender with you to show us. would you like to demonstrate that? >> sure. they are just these two little pieces of plastic. you bring down the tray table in front of you. you slide these on the arms of the tray table. they are adjustable. you don't have to push them all the way back down. you can let the person recline up to your knees and no further. >> ira goldman, the creator of the knee defender. thank you. that wraps things up for me. "lockup" is next. have a great day.

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msnbc takes you behind the walls of america's most notorious prisons. into a world of chaos and danger. now the scenes you've never seen. "lockup: raw." a marine violates the code and now faces a murder charge. a would-be soccer mom takes up with a violent street gang. >> i didn't look in the back. i didn't want to see the body. >> an openly gay inmate adheres to the convict code and pays the ic