s open for everyone. there's not one way to do something. no details too small. american express open forum. this is what membership is. this is what membership does. a police officer shot in ferguson. good morning, thanks for getting up with us. the search is under way in ferguson, missouri, for two suspects. authorities say one of the men shot a police officer last night at around 9:00 p.m. this is what officials say happened. the police officer approached the two young men, the men ran away and then fired on the officer as he tried to pursue them. the officer was shot in the arm. he is expected to live. ferguson has been the scene of racial unrest and huge protests

ever since young athe st. louis county grand jury is now hearing evidence about that incident and deciding whether to bring charges against officer wilson. to many in ferguson, missouri, that process can't move fast enough. the protest in ferguson appeared to wane in recent weeks, but earlier this week, ferguson police chief tom jackson issued a videotaped apology to the community to protesters and also to brown's family. >> i want to say this to the brown family. no one who has not experienced the loss of a child can understand what you're feeling. i'm truly sorry for the loss of your son. i'm also sorry that it took so long to remove michael from the street. the time that it took involved very important work on the part of investigators who are trying to collect evidence and gain a true picture of what happened that day. but it was just too long. and i'm truly sorry for that.

>> brown's parents told the associated press yesterday that they were unmoved by that apology. his father said that instead of an apology, he would like to see the officer who shot his son arrested. in response to questions boy an ap reporter chief jackson should be fired. two separate protests held in ferguson at the same time of the shooting. neither of them is thought it be related to last night's shooting. early last night an off-duty st. louis police officer was injured on interstate 70 when three suspects fired shots init his personal vehicle. the police spokeswoman said, and another variable in all of this, still, on friday, the u.s. justice department which is conducting its own investigation of the brown shooting urged ferguson police officers to stop wearing bracelets that show support for officer wilson while they're on the job. this is a photo from instagram. civil rights division letter

said the wearing of those wrist bands, itself, is exacerbating an intense atmosphere in ferguson. these bracelets reinforce us versus them mentality that many residents believe it exists. the letter asks that officers no longer cover up their name plates with black tape saying doing so violates ferguson police department policy. a story with many moving parts and this morning the national conversation about what happened in ferguson, what is happening in ferguson and what should happen in ferguson continues and right now i want to bring in "washington post" reporter wesley lowery who spent a lot of time on the ground in ferguson covering michael brown's death. wesley, you know, we have the news of the officer being shot in ferguson last night and also there is apparently ethe separate incident in st. louis county. it appears what we're reading in the news here is neither seems related to these protests and

neither seems related to michael brown's story. is that your understanding from your reporting? >> speaking with law enforcement officials down there that neither of the shootings is believed to be related in any way to the protests that are still ongoing and nightly in ferguson. some ways reminiscent of some of the few nights following the michael brown shooting. the police shot one suspect after an altercation and then a shooting of a young woman. both of those things were relatively unrelated to the protests. but, again, it raises a flag if only because tensions are still so high, especially between police and protesters and residents right now, that any type of violent interaction between residents and protesters and the police could spark a new round of tear gas, a new round of clashes and potentially more violence. so, obviously, it's something everyone is watching very closely for those reasons. >> a few weeks ago, a month ago, if you turn on television the only thing you were seeing in ferguson, millions of people

around the country got a really good sense of what was going on in this town. tell you a lot about the geography of the town and in the last few weeks, this is what happens. the world moves on and other things happen and the war breaks out and a lot of people haven't been following this day-to-day. what is going on in that community while the rest of the world has started to look away? >> still seeing protests almost daily. at the same time town hall meetings and doj just did some extensive town hall meetings last week. but what we're seeing is we talk to people still in ferguson as we have reporters on the ground in ferguson and the frustration is still there. the situation remains extremely tense. there's still the deep distrust between the police officers and the protesters and the residents. whether it was a lack of information lack of arrest of darren wilson. those variables still exist. still no more information and the longer this takes in some ways the more frustration is building. and what we're seeing is these

protests continue, arrests are continuing and we have a few community leaders and protest leaders have been arrested and clash business between some of the organized protesters and the police in terms of where they can set up and what they can do. tensions are still remarkably high in ferguson and any given night something could happen. >> and very quickly, wesley, just on that, i know it sounds like we don't have a lot of answers here. do we have a rough sense about the time table in terms of when this grand jury might be finished and when there is some announcement and legal action? >> so, prosecutor bob mccullough told one of my colleagues last week that he is expecting to be the first or second week of october. the initial estimate was some time in october, but then they quickly realized that that probably was not going to be realistic, especially given the way they are prosecuting this, which is presenting all the evidence to the grand jury, rather than coming to the grand jury and recommending specific charges. so, the guidance we received is that to expect something some

time in very early november in terms of a decision of whether or not darren wilson will be indicted. >> last night michael brown's family was in washington and guests at the annual awards dinner. also attending was president obama and in his remarks, the president addressed brown's death very carefully weighing in on the widespread mistrust between law enforcement and the communities they serve. >> in too many communities around the country, a gulf of mistrust exists between local law enforcement and residents. guilty of walking while black or driving while black and judged by stereo types that have fear and we know statistically in everything from enforcing drug policy to applying the death penalty to pulling people over there is significant racial

discrepancies. >> this week advise the ferguson police department and ask officers to stop wearing the bracelets on the job in support of the officer who shot and killed michael brown and to stop covering up their name plates with black tape. eric holder, excuse me, eric holder justice department that has taken on its own investigation of michael brown's death. to discuss all that. we have lynn swede and robert george of "new york post." thanks for being here. the timing on this is so interesting in that, obviously, it's terrible the death of the officer last night may not be related, but it brings to the table -- >> shooting. >> i screwed it up there somehow. the timing here, it doesn't appear related, but as wesley is saying, these protests are ongoing and now you have eric holder, you know, last night and the president who have made ferguson sort of a priority. >> they ihave. i just think that this videotape so-called apology is going to

boom rang. who does that? you do not -- i don't even know if that counts as an apology. apology is between people. apology is if you are a person who usually wears a uniform or coat and tie, you dress the part. you don't look like you were kind of brought in at the last minute to read something. so, i also think, don't under sma estimate that is going to backfire, too. i have to go to you and make it right. you don't, what would you think if i sent you a videotape apology? it's not how people work. having said that, let me move on. i think it shows how hard these racial issues are and that president obama who is winding down a term is in terms of his legacy, kind of in danger of not having the improvements that i think he thought he would have had through all these years because, you know, enough hasn't changed. ferguson is still simmering and this shooting, obviously, didn't

help. >> this is something that eric holder and the justice department has taken on. one of the things you look on and we're talking about eric holder's legacy and attorney general and six years on the job. the president talked about this last night, look, the crime rate has fallen about 10% or so while eric holder has been attorney general and we have sentencing. pretty broad sentencing reform. the only way you can bring the crime rate down is to be tougher and eric holder has changed the thinking on that. >> that is absolutely right and i disagree a bit with what you're saying there, lynn. that moment when attorney general eric holder went to ferguson and said not only am i the attorney general of the united states, i am also a black man. that was an incredibly important moment and i think the very fact that the justice department has launched a civil rights investigation and they made it a priority that we're looking at ferguson not just in terms of ferguson, but in terms of the country. yes, there are obviously, still

racial tensions and they are a parent in ferguson. but the very fact that we're willing to deal with it, i actually think is an incredible step forward. as we look at the president's legacy and look at attorney general eric holder's legacy, they made voting rights a priority in a time when supreme court and others tried to strip them away. sentencing reform a priority and civil rights a priority. >> they have done things on sentencing. >> i think lynn's right. i mean, if you take a look at polls about whether, about whether the races are closer together or further apart, they seem to suggest that they're further apart. one of the implicit promises of the obama candidacy in 2008 was this sort of a kind of a reconciliation, if you will. a whole idea that post-presidency. the fact that president obama single handlely cannot do that

is surprising. when you see what's going on in ferguson and you also see similar things happening in new york city with the eric garner, the eric garner death and the fact that somebody has still relatively controversial as al sharpton is still kind of in the middle of that. that sort of kind of taints the idea of obama as being, as being a reconciliated figure. it's not completely on him, but that's part of it. >> that's a piece of it. is that his fault or republican in congress who from day one said our number one priority is going to be to stop you at every turn. right? and a congress who is really worked at polarizing. >> one is a policy, a policy issues and the other is this broader question, though, of race and the country, which i don't think you can put on the

republicans. >> we've seen through the lens of ferguson is the fact that whether you are white or whether you are black very much determines the way you are viewing racial relations in the country. in ferguson, for example, if you ask the african-americans in the community, were you surprised at this uprise and surprised of the simmering tensions? absolutely not. just a matter of time. if you ask the white folks in the community, they were completely shocked. we've seen an uncovering here in ferguson, but i think it's an important step forward to be able to have a recognition as a country that we have an issue, that we need to deal with. >> quickly, i think we've known that since o.j. that people see things quite differently and the point is, is that there is still a divide. clearly the justice department was on the right track, revitalizing civil rights and if you are in a community where policemen are still putting black tape on your badges after what happened, you all know the message isn't getting through. >> a lot more to discuss in ferguson this morning and a lot more to talk about in the world of politic. we'll keep juggling both topics

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as your commander and chief i would not commit you and the rest of our armed forces to fighting another ground war in iraq. after a decade of massive ground deployments, it is more effective to use our unique capabilities in support of partners on the ground so they can secure their own countries futures. that's the only solution that will succeed over the long term. that was president obama earlier this month assuring the nation that there will be no boots on the ground in iraq. he's also ruled out ground troops in syria. last night, warplanes from the u.s.-led coalition carried out

air strikes near kobani. so far no ground troops deployed. we're learning this morning that most americans don't believe the president when he said that. a brand-new poll from "wall street journal." here are tlults. no one reported this before now. 72% of those surveyed by msnbc and its partners says they will use isis despite the president's assurances. in favor of putting boots on the ground, 37% said they're against using american ground troops to go after isis but 35% say they're in favor of it if military commanders decide is the best course of action. reporter for msnbc news and joins us from washington. also joined here in new york by patrick murphy, democrat of pennsylvania and now msnbc host and analyst. first iraq war veteran to be

elected to congress. patrick, let me start with you on this. this reefrain, you hear it from the president all the time and hear it from both sides of the aisle all the time. we're so tired of war and so sick of war and absolutely no boots on the ground. what jumps out at me is the plurality of americans say we're no for under certain circumstances. that's very surprising to me. >> it's not the majority. >> 10% -- >> people have seen two american journalists been beheaded and the tragedy, what's going on there. but i will tell you the facts on the ground are moving so fast with isis and we had american interest in harm's way and we fought and used air strikes in irbil. i agree with the american people. 72% of them are right, steve. when we send 1,600 american troops to that region, they are on the ground fighting isis. when those pilots are overseas

doing those air strikes, they're in harm's way. so, you know, the american people, you can't -- >> you're saying what's already been deployed but what i'm seeing in this pole al and this part of the broader watch whether on obama's watch and more robust commitment of ground forces and seems like that is what people are kind of bracing for here. >> they hear our own military commanders say you can't defeat isis with air strikes. we're sending these advisors in to train up the kurdish forces in northern iraq and we may be sending the troops over in syria. congress just approve $500 million to do that. i will tell you the american people aren't stupid. they've seen this rodeo before. we're gearing up to take the fight to isis. now, do we have five arab nations part of that coalition that's striking isis? absolutely. but it's american military might and our economic and diplomatic power that is needed to really snuff them out.

>> so, perry, what do you make of these numbers? before these beheadings where we've seen massively different numbers here? >> the number of people for ground troops very striking. the polarity in that poll for having ground troops for how worried people were two or three years ago, i think the beheadings have changed. that said, the 72% number i'm not surprised with at all. the military commanders have been saying for a while now, ground troops may be needed. even why president obama has been saying no ground troops, no ground troops, no ground troops. a lot of coverage in the paper because the joint chief said there may be ground troops. they have seen us increase troops in middleeastern countries before. they've seen president bush say one thing and do another in terms of policy. i'm not surprised there is skepticism about obama saying we will not use any ground troops. it is important to know that we have 100,000 troops in iraq or

syria, i think the answer is probably no. >> perry, though, does this change when you start seeing polling results like this. when you're down in d.c. and talking to members of congress. again, every member of congress and every politician is so scared and this country doesn't want war and i don't want to be associated with it. do these numbers start to change the sort of political c calculations of political officials in washington? >> i think they have. what you saw a couple weeks ago a vote about arming the syrian rebels. all members, particularly democrats would want to avoid being on the record in any kind of way, supporting any kind of military conflict. now we're to a point where you're seeing more openness for a congressman to be on the record. you've seen some democrats who say, i want to actually have a vote on this and some republicans, too, i want to have a formal vote to say we can take on isis. i think we fear for members of congress that i might vote the wrong way like on iraq has went away slightly because of these beheadings and how serious and

what was happening with isis. >> patrick, i'm just curious, how do you think this is going? we talk day-to-day about the air strikes here and air strikes there. to protect the kurdish population and also some activity on the eastern front where isis is basically headquartered. these are the latest incremental developments. if you take a step back and look at the big picture to destroy isis, how do you think this is going so far? >> i think it's going well. the fact that we have five arab nations to be in the fight with us is historic, frankly. to go against, and the international community has rallied against isis. called them for what they are. they are the network of death and terrorist organization. but they are trying to, unlike al qaeda, trying to capture land and build up this space, this islamic state and these arab countries are saying, no. what i will say, though, is that those five arab nations that are with us in that fight were not with us last week when we did

air strikes against an al qaeda affiliated group. but it is what it is. against isis i think it is going pretty well. to truly stomp them out we need boots on the ground. >> we're talking about polling here and a new poll on the u.s. attitudes towards the war with isis. i want to bring in one other piece of polling news overnight. this is from the state of iowa, key battleground state for control of the u.s. senate this year and it shows joni ernst the republican leading bruce braley the democrat. you see a lot of different poll numbers floating around there. des moines register poll taken by one of the most reputable pollsters in the country. the national media looks to every four years to give the final read out of what will happen in these caucuses. this broke overnight. getting a lot of taernattention the political world this

morning. the significance of the race and what you think when you see a poll like this. >> this is not the only poll showing ernst ahead of bruce braley. a series of polls where iowa is really, really hard to see a path for the democrats in the senate that doesn't involve them winning this race. the fact that braley is behind in several polls, including this one, tell you the democrats need to be really worried about losing that race and therefore losing the senate because this number has a lot of democrats worried, and it should. >> and, of course, the back story here is that braley had his own 47% moment they called it. this videotape of him talking to a group of lawyers and basically disparaging the idea of a farmer being the chairman of the judiciary committee and the striking thing in this poll among rural voters in iowa. farmers or no farmers, braley is running at 15 and that is hurting democrats as they try to control the senate. that's the other big polling

news this morning. for now i want to thank patrick murphy and perry. patrick show "taking the hill" will air this afternoon. interview tim kaine of virginia not just role but responsibility in authorizing the fight against isis. patrick murphy's full interview airs at 1:00 eastern time today on msnbc. also keeping an eye on last night's shooting of a police officer in ferguson, missouri. later, joined by one of the few people in kentucky who knows what it takes to win office as a democrat there. how is democrat allison grimes doing in that big marquise senate race? we'll find out in a little bit. stay with us. the good news in p, bad news in email. good news -- fedex has flat rate shipping. it's called fedex one rate. and it's affordable. sounds great. [ cell phone typing ] [ typing continues ] [ whoosh ] [ cell phones buzz, chirp ] and we have to work the weekend. great.

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all right. more now on the breaking news out of ferguson, missouri, that we have been following all morning. the suspects are still at large and the manhunt continues after a police officer was shot there overnight. police say the men ran away from the officer after he approached them outside a community center and then one of them opened fire during the pursuit. the officer was struck in the arm and doctors expect him to survive. police do not think this incident was related to the recent protests over the shooting of teenager michael brown last month. the two more protests were also held last night. earlier this week, ferguson police chief tom jackson issued a videotaped apology to brown's family. instead of apologize, chief jackson should just resign. joining me on the phone is maria chappelle-nadal. if you can start by letting us know what it is about this shooting overnight and what the reaction of the community has

been so far. >> what i am hearing is that there were two shootings last evening. one dealing with the incident that you just mentioned and another at highway 70 oandand 1f an officer that was off duty in his personal car and not a uniform. tensions are very high right now. we are hearing right now that there, these incidents are not related to the protests. however, there are protests who are going to the scene of these incidents. while the police officers are trying to investigate these situations, it is very important that we allow the police officers to do their business and not get engaged in these situations. the tensions are high, as i stated. and protesters want to get some resolution and when it comes to the ferguson police department, they are not being heard. there is a lack of communication between the police department and protesters in the greater

community. and, so, we are still in a state of chaos right now in ferguson. >> yeah, so, we talked about this and we played a little bit of it earlier in the show. this week there was that videotaped police apology that police chief jackson put out i think it was about four minutes long. we played a clip from it earlier. reaction from michael brown's family. you have been critical of the initial response. now that you have seen his videotape apology what, what is your reaction to that? >> that did not go well. it heightened tensions. you've seen the apology. i'm just reflecting what the community is saying right now. what my constituents are concerned about, why didn't the chief apologize after the killing of michael brown? why did he wait for six weeks? the only resolution right now for this community is for chief jackson to resign. clearly, that is the only resolution and he refuses to do so, but, this community has not gotten a win yet.

and they're concerned about it. >> how, also, we talked earlier in this letter from the justice department advising the ferguson police department that officers should not be wearing those bracelets in support of officer wilson and also saying that apparently some might have been blotting out their name i.d.s on their uniforms. do you have a sense how wide spread that was and how wide spread it was among officers wearing these bracelets. one or two officers or almost a concerted thing? >> it was actually quite a few officers who are wearing those bracelets. and that intensified the situation completely. in fact, every time police officers show up, we are guaranteed to have a situation that is uncontrollable. when police officers are not around, protesters are fine. there's total peace when police officers aren't around. when they come in force, especially when they don't wear their badges and then when they have these bracelets on, it

intensifies the entire situation. so, we are not settled down. this community is not settled at all. and, frankly, it seems as though we have gone back to the 1940s. >> wow. all right, state senator maria chappelle, we appreciate you taking the time. we'll be right back to check in on how all the blue state governors governoring as they represent red states. how they're fairing in their efforts to win re-election four years later. stay with us. [ sighs ] [ inhales ] [ male announcer ] at cvs health, we took a deep breath... [ inhales, exhales ] [ male announcer ] and made the decision to quit selling cigarettes in our cvs pharmacies. now we invite smokers to quit, too, with our comprehensive program. we just want to help everyone, everywhere, breathe a little easier.

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physical energy with berocca. proud sponsor of mind and body. have different presidential elections and mid-term elections are and how different the voters are who show up to vote in them. we're calling them the blue state republican governors. back in 2008 when barack obama won a solid victory over john mccain, he turned a bunch of

states blue but then two years later when a very different, much more republican friendly electorate showed up, a bunch of those blue obama states revolted and elected republican governors and then in 2012, when it was a presidential election year, again, and when those obama voters were back at the polls, those same states went for obama, again. they went back to being blue. so, that leaves us where we are right now. there are nine states. there are nine states that president obama carried twice but where republicans also won governor elections in 2010. that's nine blue states that have republican governors right now. now in 2014, those nine republican governors are facing the voters, again, for the first time since they were elected. they lead blue states, but they have governed as republicans. so, how many of those nine will be punished for doing that? how many will survive and how many have prosperred? look at the gop blue class state

of 2010. how are they doing with the election fast approaching and to help us out with that is perry joining us from washington. perry, we've done our best to rank these in order of the safest of this class of 2010 to the most vulnerable. we'll run through the list and get your thoughts on some of these. let's start with the safest, not much to be said here. we rank the safest, brian sandoval running ahead of his democratic opponent and he looks fine. also looking pretty safe, susanna martinez in new mexico. again, she's up by double digits. go up to iowa, terry brandstad and then you go to ohio. again, this is one where a lot of people thought it would be a close race. the democrat completely collapsed in this race. this one to pause on, perry,

because a lot of people are looking at the 2016 republican field and it's missing that establishment candidate and the donors and it looks electable and all that. kasich. >> he ran for president in 1996 and didn't do very well. we know in addition to doing that and what you see in the numbers is that he's moved to the center. early on he signed some anti-union legislation and that got him a lot of intense opposition from democrats. since then, he's moved on the left, to the point the other day he was talking about medicaid expansion. he made his point of medicaid expansion and obama care which was very misleading. he knows expanding medicaid has helped him politically with getting more democrats along the way. that has been very smart for him. >> he's definitely back. . again, back to our list here. we're getting into the territory now where these are republican

governors who are a lot more vulnerable and we start in michigan and go back to that map and see rick snider running for re-election and polling average. see all the polls they have taken in that state. that's what you see in that number. 2.5 lead for snider and his democratic opponent mark schauer and wisconsin basically the same category. we all know the scott walker story they tried to recall him in 2012 and this race, it has him up by a point and basically did. perry, i know you've done some reporting in wisconsin earlier, so, democrats try to take him out in 2012 and the recall they failed miserably, what are their r prospects looking like right now? >> walker is doing something very striking. most governors have tried to move left in some way, like rick scott in florida signed the version of the florida dream act and many expanded medicaid. one of his big things in this

campaign platform is to require get unemployment benefits and you have to pass drug tests first. this is a very controversial idea and one is like a pose by liberals and very strongly supported by conservatives. he is running a very strong base campaign to win. but democrats think they can can win in wisconsin. there's talk the president will go to wisconsin in october, but the view is that there aren't any swing voters in wisconsin left and whoever can drive up their base the most and be the most polarizing can win that race. >> you go back to the map and teased this a second ago eand rick scott in florida. i mean, look at this, look at the real clear politics polling. dead even. 42.6% for crist now running as the democrat. scott has spent a lot of money criticizing charlie crist and has gotten some benefit to that.

>> outspent crist 3-1 on television. that's a big change. one thing in all of these polls are showing the republicans leading. electerally much less black and much less hispanic than in a presidential year. that's exactly in florida where the polls assume that the race, they'll go back to a nonobama eelectorate. crist is very focused on turning out the minority communities. so, the polling in all these races, particularly in florida, could be off if somehow the democrats can change this electora electorate that has more minorities and more young people in it. >> we'll just quickly efinish up the list here. the last two states in vulnerable territory. you go to maine and lepage who has put his foot in his mouth more than once. running slightly behind the democrat, the wildcard there, though, this independent who ran four years ago and running,

again, presumably siphoning the vote and that complicates a little bit and you get to the most danger republican on the map there in a blue state. that's tom corbett in pennsylvan pennsylvania. he's down 16 points and i haven't seen too many fall behind that much and survive. >> republicans have all but conceded that tom corbett is going to lose. in maine that race is close and we're not sure who is going to win. joe biden and bill clinton went up there to campaign for the democrat and lepage has been controversial but at the same time, that race is still close and it's not over. susan is on the ballot and she's a very popular republican in that state. that race will be closely. it's likely to see overall, steve, the democrats will lose a lot of seats in the senate. no matter what they're going to lose seats. possible to gain a lot of ground in governor races and i expect governors will set more policy

than senators will because the senate is so polarized and the house and the president of a different party. >> part of the story here. the politically volatile states and then those republicans do things and now going to be judged in this. interesting to see how this plays out. i want to thank nbc news perry for joining us this morning. back in the primary in may they were running neck and neck and this looked like the marquise senate race of the year. so, how is that race looking now? kentucky democratic congressman joins us to tell us next. and when weather hits, it's data mayhem. but airlines running hp end-to-end solutions are always calm during a storm. so if your business deals with the unexpected,

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their wish. >> i invite kentuckians all across this commonwealth. join our campaign together. we will rid kentucky of a man who hasn't worked for us in washington. won't work for us in washington and replace him with a fighter who will. >> that, of course, is alison lundergan grimes making her victory speech back in may. she was rearing to give the top republican in the senate mitch mcconnell the run of his life. back then polls show the two running dead even. democrats were licking their chops. it was mcconnell, of course, who famously declared that his chief goal was to deny obama a second term. mcconnell who has shattered all previous records in his filibustering, obstructing and delaying president obama's agenda. now, here, finally, looked like it was the democrats' chance to knock him out. do it in his own backyard to keep mcconnell from ever reaching his dream of becoming senate majority leader.

now, just over a month before the big day, this is a race that looks like it is sleepiipping a from democrats. mcconnell opened up a steady lead and hasn't put her away completely, but put some distance in this race. "new york times" upshot model gives mcconnell a 93% chance of winning now. she is trying even harder to make the state's rural voters feel comfortable with her. >> i'm not barack obama. i disagree with him on guns, coal and the epa. and, mitch, that's not how you hold a gun. >> coy xoi kentucky is a tough r a democrat to win. always an uphill climb for grimes. democrats one believing they had had a shot at and one they would love to win. how has grimes fallen behind and can she get back into this and, if so, how?

joining me now john yarmoth. what could alison grimes do between now and november to turn those polls around? >> well, first of all, i was with her campaign on friday and was talking to the campaign manager and they are doing nightly tracking polls across kentucky. she's actually, virtually tied. she is a couple points ahead in a couple of the tracking poll sxw. >> those are the internal polls. >> these are the internal polls. but in a midterm election, as you said, the whole key is who comes out to vote. and they have a model where they're tracking the most likely voters, the people who voted consistently over the last few years and they're ahead with that group. so, i think, you know, the push button polls, the automated polls are probably not capturing the dynamics that are going on with voter turnout. but, you know, i think alison's challenge the next few weeks the

people of kentucky have decided they don't want mitch mcconnell any more. his disapproval rating is 63% in a recent cnn poll, orc. so, they decided they're finished with him. alison hasn't closed the deal with a number of people who want to replace mitch and that is her challenge over the next six weeks. that's what she has to do and she has a very solid plan for doing that. this race is by far from over. i'll spare you all the kentucky derby metaphors. but we are in the home stretch and she's got a great chance to win. >> you're saying she's a closer. i should point out one of the polls, one of the polls has her down has her down eight polls. our nbc marest polls. we stand by their work. i want to point that out. one thing i hear when i talk to people in kentucky, there might have been a miscalculation about the nature of this race. you say the high negatives for mcconnell been around for 30 years and all that. people i talked to kentucky said she tried too hard to make this a negative message about

mcconnell and that in so doing, nobody really knows much about her. is there anything to that? >> well, i think there is with a lot of voters, that is the case. like i said with a lot of voters, she hasn't closed the deal yet. they're waiting and they're looking for and a very, very important debate and the only debate that mitch mcconnell was willing to have a very, very critical night, particularly efor those voters who don't want to go out and vote for mitch. and, so, again, she's got time to make up whatever difference there is, if, in fact, there is a difference. but we here in louisville and in my district, i'll guarantee you the energy is very, very high. the turnout is going to be very, very high. mitch mcconnell is going to be rejected resoundingly here and if we can come out with a 60% turnout, she'll come out of lieu rlville with a margin that mitch will have a hard time overcoming. all about getting out the vote

and she has an unprecedented organization for that. >> we see in races all across the country and we certainly saw this in the presidential race in 2012, the story of american politics is the gender gap. it's republicans tending to do better with men and democrats now building a bigger and bigger advantage with women and democrats nationally have talked so much about women, in particularly women are so important to their 2014 strategy and when i look in the polls in kentucky, very different from the other states. i don't see nearly as pronounced a gender gap in kentucky anywhere else. do you have any explanation for that? >> well, you know, i know that most of the polls have shown that but what they also show is that on all the issues, excuse me, fundamentally, that the campaign will turn on which are bread basket issues, as well as issues like paycheck fairness. the voters agree with a alisonlundergran grimes and she is running questions across the

commonwealth stressing key economic issues things like raising the minimum wage and changing and helping people with student debt and we'll see. i think that women and men are going to respond to her affirmative agenda the next few weeks. >> all right, congressman john yarmuth. we'll watch that debate. grimes and mcconnell, we'll be right back. heck, i saved judith here a fortune with discounts like safe driver, multi-car, paperless. you make a mighty fine missus, m'lady. i'm not saying mark's thrifty. let's just say, i saved him $519, and it certainly didn't go toward that ring. am i right? [ laughs ] [ dance music playing ] so visit progressive.com today. i call this one "the robox."

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shot a police officer last night at around 9:00 p.m. the police officer approached the two young men, those men then ran away and fired on the officer as he tried to chase them. the officer was shot in the arm and he is expected to live. you'll recall the st. louis subdivision ferguson ever since michael brown was shot and killed last month by a white police officer named darren wilson. st. louis county grand jury is hearing information about that incident. the protests in ferguson appear to wane in recent weeks and two separate protests held in ferguson at the same time of the shooting. it is important to point out that neither of those protests are thought to be relate today last night's shooting. earlier this morning, also not far from ferguson, an off-duty st. louis county police officer was injured on the interstate when one of three suspects fired shots into his car and that is also not thought to be related. earlier this week, tom jackson

issued a videotaped apology to the community to protesters and also to brown's family. >> i want to say this to the brown family. no one who has not experienced the loss of a child can understand what you're feeling. i'm truly sorry for the loss of your son. i'm also sorry that it took so long to remove michael from the street. the time that it took involved very important work on the part of investigators who are trying to collect evidence and gain a true picture of what happened that day. but it was just too long. and i'm truly sorry for that. >> brown's parents told the associated press yesterday that they were unmoved by that apology. instead of an apology, he would like to see ethe officer who shot his son arrested. want to bring back in wesley lowrie of "washington post" on the ground in ferguson and the protest. wesley, that videotape. we talked to a state senator who

was saying much like michael brown's parents didn't mean much to her. is there a back story to that videotape? we saw the justice department corresponding and stop blotting out the badges. did that produce this videotape, as well? >> this happened. the videotape happened earlier to the justice department letter and, however, a back and forth. one thing that is important to remember about ferguson police department is that this is a relatively small suburban police department that doesn't handle these heated tensions. at the very beginning, the ferguson police and the ferguson city brought in a pr firm and then eventually replaced it with a second pr firm and this is what this video, how it was produced and who produced it was the pr firm that the city of ferguson was working with and that is why it was released. again, there are questions about why it took so long for this type of video and why maybe chief jackson hadn't said something sooner. but this was a product of the city trying to proactively etrying to reclaim some of the narrative. >> so, it's interesting, too.

it's aimed, it's a meseniag mes the community and michael brown's family. via videotape. any more personal contact between them and the police chief? >> i spoke with michael brown's parents yesterday and they said they have yet to have any contact with law enforcement. they have not spoken to police except for the first day when they were at the scene attempting to identify his body and the police were pushing him backwards. the family has no relationship and no trust and, in fact, they told me yesterday they haven't even watched this video. no relationship at all between the local law enforcement and michael brown's family. >> also, i'm curious, too, about the response from the police officers in ferguson because, again, we were talking about this last hour with the state senator out there with these bracelets, these i am darren wilson support bracelet. she thought they were very common among police officers there. she said it's more than one or

two and officers blotting out their name i.d. who are wearing them. has there been much reported? i know police departments can be tough to sort of penetrate, but has there been much reporting about how the police are responding. sort of a mentality here of what closed ranks around darren wilson? >> i think we have certainly seen some of that mentality, not from every officer and from all departments and we've seen many of them. darren wilson fund-raisers going on at the ground and going on at the police bars and a lot of former and current officers from different jurisdictions coming in, buying bracelets, buying t-shirts and spending money, donating money. we saw the law enforcement community certainly closed ranks around darren wilson and hundreds of thousands of dollars raised for a legal defense that right now he doesn't even really have to have. he's not charged with any crime. we've certainly seen a mentality on both sides of this. both as residents and protesters and then police and other police officers. this us versus them from both

sides and i think community leaders and certainly the department of justice, as i said in that letter, the core of some of this problem is that we're seeing this. when i was on the ground, many officers, not all officers, because some of them made a point to make sure that their name was visible and their badge number were visible and good officers on the ground down there really doing the work to try to build some trust, but many officers did have their name tags blacked out, including many of the officers physically doing the arresting of protesters. >> wesley lowrie from "washington post" thanks for joining us. last night michael brown's family was in washington. guests at the congressional black caucus foundation annual awards dinner and also attending was president obama and his remarks the president addressed brown's death very carefully. ferguson came up in his remarks at the united nations earlier this week and spoke with how the nation was trying to work through its problems. >> it was interesting. ferguson was used by some of america's enemies and critics to deflect attention from their own shortcomings overseas.

to undermine our efforts to promote justice around the world. they said, well, look at what's happened to you back home. but as i said this week at the united nations, america's special not because we're perfect, america's special because we work to address our problems. to make our union more perfect. we fight for more justice. >> the attorney general eric holder was also at last night's dinner on friday the u.s. justice department which is conducting its own investigation of the brown shooting urged officers to stop wearing those bracelets in support of officer wilson while they're on the job. here's a photo on instagram that smoon took of an officer's wrist. wearing the wrist bands itself is exacerbating an intense atmosphere between residents in ferguson. also asked that all officers no

longer cover up their name plates with black tape saying that doing so violates ferguson police department policy. the justice department has made this request before. want to bring back in now our panel, lynn sweet of "chicago-sun times." robert george of "new york post." so, play that clip from the president last night sort of reminding the audience what he had said at the united nations earlier in the week. i remember when he gave that speech at the u.n., that surprised people that he included and made specific use of ferguson in that speech. i wonder what you made of that, robert. >> i don't know. it struck me as a little, as a little bit off. i think what the president said yesterday was appropriate showing how the united states hasn't moved past these issues, but we've moved to address them. and we're still evolving in that way. whereas the speech at the u.n., it it was very much probably the

most forceful war footing speech, you know, that he's given. which was good. and i'm not quite sure if a specific domestic issue while it's definitely heats up emotions at home and so forth, i'm not necessarily sure if talking about ferguson there, if that was actually perfect. it didn't seem like a seamless transition. >> i guess one issue is just the basic politics of it. where the president has found out he was talking about cambridge back in 2009 and talking about trayvon martin and when he ventures explicitly into the topic of race, the blow back he takes in terms of domestic politics is fierce. it reached a point where the white house seemed, made an intentional decision to stop stirring that up to the extent that it could and yet he willingly goes to the united nations and the world is literally a stage and he made a point of talking about that. >> here's where i think he did. he is talking and making an

appeal to the muslim world and any would-be domestic isis fighters, which is a great concern that might be eexporting terrorists is that the united states, yes, we have serious problems and at least we try to solve them. and we talk about them and, you know, this is run through other speeches and that's what makes us different. we have these divides and we're not perfect and i think that's an important message that the president sent out in the u.n. meaning we're not putting ourselves up on a pedestal saying we are trying to tell you what to do, we're just saying that even between a religion that has great differences we could spend all day here talking about sunnis and shiites and why they're fighting and why the irish and the british have problems. it was important to incorporate the imperfections of the united states and make an appeal to not express yourself that way. one thing i want to point out that the obama white house has a

pretty important initiative called becoming a man where obama is working with at-risk african-american males. i think we'll hear more about it. >> my brother's keeper. >> it's becoming a man is a program that started in chicago. but it has its roots in working with at-risk youth. and that's the kind of thing that i think is important work that is being done and obama is doing more and i think -- >> take a very hands on role there. >> lynn, you're exactly right. depends on who you're looking at as the audience for that speech at the u.n. the president was speaking to much more to our reluctant allies, for example. that is the thing you hear around the world. americans are hypocrites and they have their own problems and trying to tell all of us how to live. to have that level of candor and to say, i know you're talking about this. i know you saw what happened in ferguson and here's why even though, yes, we have our own problems, here's why we're different because we are a

democracy and we're having an investigation and having an open conversation about it. that was an important piece. he didn't say anything particularly ground breaking or new in terms of the domestic political audience. >> the fact that that was a speech, you know, addressing terrorism and war and why the united states was getting involved and why trying to bring coalitions together. >> trying to be moral leaders and why we have a grounds to be moral leaders in the world. >> i'm not sure if that particular link, just saying that we're trying to work through our own imperfections is quite the same thing as, you know, the united states getting involved in trying to stop a terrorist organization. >> existing argument that exists in the international space. >> i think it's something of a false equivalence, though, in my view. >> we're going to cut it off there.

thank you for joining us this morning. more from ferguson in just a little bit and also keeping an eye on the fight against isis this morning. new air strikes in syria last night. the details and the implications, next. ♪ [ male announcer ] this man has an accomplished research and analytical group at his disposal. ♪ but even more impressive is how he puts it to work for his clients. ♪ morning. morning. thanks for meeting so early. oh, it's not a big deal at all. come on in. [ male announcer ] it's how edward jones makes sense of investing. ♪

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turning now to syria. last night u.s. coalition planes launched air strikes in northern syria in the kurdish area along the turkish border. the u.s. directly engaging via u.s. military in the country's three-year civil war for the first time. isis has overtaken village and village around kobani. at least 150,000 refugees have fled to turkey. sources from saudi arabia,

jordan and "new york times" reports they're inching towards an alliance with syria. at the same time, you may recall the british royal air force flew its first combat mission in iraq, not syria only one day after they approved the move. joining me now ayman. you cover the middle east even when you're here in new york, you just happen to be in new york. let's start talking about what happened yesterday. you have a group of kurds there that isis is moving in on and the u.s. launched its air strikes to protect them. what was achieved yesterday? >> well, i think the on the ground assessment remains to be seen. i think from the military perspective, the u.s. is trying to keep isis fighters back. they have been pushing towards the city of kobani now for several days. a lot of kurds are lining up on the turkish side some wanting to return and some wanting to fight. it seems right now the u.s. is

trying trying to slow down that isis advance. not clear if the advance is completely stopped or whether they just have been destroyed. the positions have been destroyed, meaning they're now retreating back to some of the strongholds of isis. >> so, this gets to the big question. we got it a little bit there in the intro and turkey in its role or potential role in joining the u.s. turkey with a very strong military. this is right by the border where this is playing out. the kurds going into turkey for protection. has isis been, is isis respecting the turkish border to try to keep turkey out? >> they have been in the sense that they haven't attacked turkey inside turkey, per se i. so, they haven't gone, not only in the kobani area, but they have other areas along the border that are firmly in isis control and they never demonstrated a clear violation. i'm sure squirmishes along the

border, but never an attack to try to take over a village or a town or go into turkey or carry out a raid against turkish soldiers. nuthing to demonstrate that kind of, what they would describe, as a provocative action against the turkey. >> has that affected the calculus. has it made turkey look at this maybe differently than others? >> turkey has had a slightly different perspective. they did not want to do anything that weakened the opposition in trying to topple president assad. so, for a long time, they let that border remain open that arms and weapons would essentially help anyone trying to topple the assad regime. we've now seen the result of that policy and isis being one of the major negative consequences of it and i think that the turks are waking up to that reality. they are interested in trying to crack down on it. they want to participate now in the coalition. they had 49 hostages held by isis. that tied their hands a little

bit. but i think the dynamic is slowly starting to change, according to officials. >> interesting. keep an eye on that. i want to thank ayman. we'll continue talking about the campaign against isis on the other side of this break. how an an ti-war president doesn't seem to be so anti-war any more. you know what my business philosophy is, reynolds? no. not exactly. to attain success, one must project success. that's why we use fedex one rate. their flat rate shipping. exactly.

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your goals, our technology. introducing synchrony financial, bringing new meaning to the word partnership. banking. loyalty. analytics. synchrony financial. enagage with us. >> as president, i will end this war. we don't have to choose between retreating from the world and fighting a war. >> four years ago i told you i would end the war in iraq and i did. after a decade of war, it is time to do nation building right here at home. >> president obama won office by presenting himself as the anti-war, anti-bush candidate and that seemed to change a little bit this week. >> there could be no reasoning, no negotiation with this brand of evil. the only language understood by killers like this is the language of force.

so the united states of america will work with a broad coalition to dismantle this network of death. >> dan millbank of "washington post" that phrase from the president's speech the network of death has a similar ring to bush's axis of evil statement more than a decade ago. even put obama in a flight suit in illustration under the headline "mission relaunched." took stock of countries bombed by the last two presidents and counted seven by obama and four by bush. has obama changed or has the world changed him? here to discuss we have "washington post" diplomatic correspondent ann garin and e.j. dion. i will start with you. the circumstances, obviously, of launching this war on isis are very different than the circumstances of choosing to invade, occupy and rebuild iraq, as this country did as george w.

bush did more than ten years ago. at that time the point that dana millbank made and the point the others made of the language being very, it had a very familiar sound to it if you heard george w. bush's speeches talking about saddam hussein and the axis of evil. was that striking to you, as well? >> in particular, his invoivation of the word evil as well as the phrase. and i think so much of how you look at this depends on what you think obama should have done in the first place. because i think there's one way of looking at this that says what obama is doing here is quite consistent with what he said all along. if you go all the way back to that 2002 speech that state senator barack obama gave opposing iraq he said, i'm not a pacifist, i think we need to respond to terrorism, but this iraq war that president bush was launching is not the right war and it's not about terrorism. jump forward to now.

what he's saying now is this is not about a reoccupation of iraq. i'm not sending troops back. this is about terrorism. the same fight that i had against al qaeda is now the fight that we are carrying out against isis. now, there's a lot of skepticism of that particularly on the left. i happen to be, cambridge, massachusetts, yesterday, a place where you would run into an anti-war sentiment. and ran into a thoughtful person, look, is obama being sucked into iraq, again? are we beginning what we began the last time? i think, again, obama would say, no, we're not going to send troops. we're going to roll isis back or contain them with sunni arab troops and that makes it very different and we are, once again, just going after terrorists. but i think that's the debate you're going to hear. >> ann, i guess some people looking at this feel there is a certain inevitability happening. the idea of getting sucked in when president obama spoke to

the country this summer and we launched this first round of air strikes, it made him the fourth consecutive u.s. president, democrat and republican. two republicans, two democrats to launch military action in iraq. i think some people looking at this say there seems to be something about being president that just makes this decision ultimately automatic. >> well, i mean to a degree president obama has been dragged to this decision, but, as you said in the intro, a fair amount of it that circumstances have changed around him. he's been president for a long time now and the beginning of his presidency was all about one thing, which is disentangling on foreign policy front, which was disentangling wars from the middle east and afghanistan and the white house would argue that they were successful and, oh, by the way, at the same time they had to unravel the worst financial crisis in many, many years. but the, all of those things sort of seem in far distance now. because nothing happened in the middle east that was good from

his perspective as a result of the withdrawal of american forces. in fact, iraq fell apart and the united states is now picking up the pieces there and i think the more significant thing that is happening here is that in that u.n. speech and else where confronting in very sober and hawkish terms, the fact that the united states is going to be involved in syria, a war he has avoided at every turn for more than three years in an action that may well outlast his presidency. >> that's the other question, too. it may well last his presidency, but also what he hans off then to his successor. whether it's a democrat or a republican and people looking at, for instance, in the last two weeks we find about the khorason group. a lot of people would wonder that we're amping up our military equipment out there, are we going to find out about other groups that force us to

stay even longer? >> yeah, this is the thing, too, that obama complained about very loudly during the campaign and upon taking presidency he had inherited ongoing military activities and you can't just end that right away because you end up putting american forces and potentially other american interests at risk, if you do. so, in one sense, he's going to do to the next president what was done to him, which is to give him a complex ongoing war, not of his or her own making and that person is going to have to decide what to do next. >> e.j., can you see that cycle ever breaking? i can think all the way back to the 1990s and saddam hussein invades kuwait and we put these sanctions on him and starts flaunting the sanctions and sets up one confrontitation after another and can you see this cycle ever breaking with the u.s. and the middle east? >> i mean, some day way down the road. i think the problem is that

beginning before the iraq war and leading into 9/11, you had a series of terrorist groups that grew up and al qaeda became the one we were most aware of and osama bin laden, the leader we were most aware of. and americans, all of us, i think, including the president, wanted to believe that, you know, that he killed our forces killed osama bin laden and that this threat would begin to die down. it turns out that this threat is a longerterm threat and that we will probably be at this fight for a long time to come. i think the question is, are we at this fight in a way that gets us stuck in a whole series of ground wars or do we find a way to encourage, not only shia arabs who have shia muslims who have reason to be opposed to these groups, but also sunnis,

more moderate sunnis. we use the term moderate advisedly. this isn't what we want. i think what obama is trying to do for the long run and it will be hard is to enlist a lot of sunni allies against a sunni group so that this does not look like just another part of a sunni chival wivil war. but wii think we're going to be stuck in this fight for quite some time and the president has been very clear about that. he is not trying to make people believe that a few strikes and this will be gone. >> the administration making it clear the air strikes that were carried out yesterday were carried out with the sunni state partners. my thanks to anne gearan and e.j. dionne. two overnight shootings in ferguson. how the fight against isis is polarizing the republican party. that's still ahead.

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the manhunt continues in ferguson, missouri, at this hour in last night's shooting of a police officer. earlier this morning not far from ferguson, police officers say an off-duty police officer was injured when one of three suspects fired shots into his car. the shots came on the same night as two new. protests in both shootings are not believed to be related. st. louis grand jury eis hearing evidence about brown's death. many bringing the decision to bring charges can't come fast enough. outgoing attorney general eric holder not only visited ferguson, his department has made civil rights one of the cornerstones of his tenure. joining us now by phone is steve giegerich reporting in ferguson last night. joins us now, so, steve, what can you tell us about exactly what happened overnight in

ferguson? >> there were two perhaps unrelated incidents. one approximately 9:10. ferguson police officer happened upon a robbery of some kind. one of the suspects, that set off a massive manhunt with the held kaurteicopters in the air search lights and spunned rumors with protests in ferguson. about three hours later, a st. louis city police officer was driving home on the highway maybe about a mile and a half, two miles from ferguson. and he aapparently a car pulled up next to him and fired several shots into his automobile, injuring him. my understanding is that he was basically injures to his hands from broken glass. there were no bullet injuries. >> you're saying so that there are two things here. these ongoing protests and no

indication of any relationship between the protests in either of these, but also no indication that these two shootings themselves are connected in any way. >> not at this point. the police made a concerted effort last night to emphasize that especially the first shooting of the ferguson officer was not in all related to the protests. the protesters did move to a site near where the officer had been shot and it was a small demonstration there for about an hour last night. and tensions were pretty high and people yelling at the police and some of the things that we've been seeing around here for seven weeks. >> steve giegerich on the scene, appreciate the time. thank you for taking the time. talk more now about the justice department investigation of michael brown's death. eric holder's resignation will have a big impact and this may be one of the biggest. for that we're joined by carrie

johnson of npr. she broke the story earlier this week about eric holder's resignation and she joins us now. thank you for taking a few minutes. yes, the attorney general was in ferguson last month. the attorney general has made it clear that this is a very important investigation to him by the department with eric holder stepping aside imminently. is that going to affect how the justice department approaches this in any way? >> eric holder has said he's going to stay on the job until the president nominates and the senate confirms his successor. and, steve, that could take the rest of the year and into 2015. i was doing some reporting this week and it's not clear that the ferguson investigations will be done before eric holder leaves. note, steve, there are two investigations. one of officer darren wilson and whether he violated the civil rights of michael brown. and a second, a civil investigation of whether the ferguson police department has engaged in a pattern or practice of discrimination.

that investigation may take a little bit longer to resolve but the people who are running that investigation day-to-day, steve, are going to stay on the job even after eric holder leaves. what we expect to see there is a written finding involving the ferguson police department and potentially a court ordered consent decree that would require some changes to the way the ferguson police department does its job now. >> in all this, too, there's also the issue of in missouri itself and st. louis county itself, the grand jury, if the officer is ultimately charged and a trial if he is then convicted. is the justice department's time table contingent on what happens on that front? >> not at all. often the federal authorities at the justice department will allow a state or local officials to go first with their investigation. and we'll look over their shoulder. what we know, steve, is that the fbi has been sharing information with the state's attorney who is

investigating this and the grand jury there. but there are no way bound by what that grand jury does. >> so, it's possible then that the justice department could move before we find out anything in missouri? >> i think it's much more likely that the state officials will act first and the officials will act after that. >> carrie johnson, npr, she broke the story of eric holder's ressingingination this week. how the fight against isis looms large as we approach 2016. the war within one of the parties about war. that's coming up next. & fizzin] support both mental sharpness and physical energy with berocca. proud sponsor of mind and body. virtually all your important legal matters in just minutes. now it's quicker and easier for you to start your business, protect your family,

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wishing you love, sleep and play. pampers. at this time yesterday, british air force planes were in the air and on their way to iraq to conduct air strikes against isis. u.s. coalition planes struck northern syria whether the u.s. should be doing this or at all is at the heart of the republican party.

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the political fight over what to do about isis isn't a normal democrat/republican issue. there are fights within each party, particularly on the republican side. it's where you have hawks like john mccain who are much more weary of intervention like rand paul. a fight that looms large as 2016 approaches where republicans will have to choose who they are and what direction they want to go when it comes to military force. this week that battle in the republican party started to get personal. long-time mccain confident used a column to whack rand paul for dabbling in the outlandish conspiracy theories of fringe dwellers. referring to a debunk story that they met with members of isis on a trip to syria last year a

story that went viral before the "new york times" documented it was false. after the story had been debunth from saying that mccain, "did meet with isis and had picture taken and didn't know it was happening at the time. that shows you the quandary of determining who are the moderates and who aren't." salter after that, mccain's close friend this week called paul either that it raises questions about the sincerity of paul's recent questions to moderate the paranoid radicalism that so delights 9/11 deniers. down the losing electoral path to pave the terms of president obama. people should read that screen in that context and disregard it. mccain and paul don't care much for each other and coming from

very different places when it comes to the next phase of american foreign policy. which side, the mccain side or the paul side will win out when republicans are forced to decide. that is the question of the nex what republicans are forced to decide. to discuss this, i'm joyed -- joined by two guests. katherine, i'll start with you. you're probably closer to the rand paul world view than the john mccain world view. it seems here that mccain and those that see the world like mccain does would very much like to discredit rand paul. it looks like rand paul did them a favor, didn't he? you look at the language that mark salter is using. and that is rand paul's fault for putting this out there.

>> he is looking at a match up that potential he will seeing hillly and rand paul. a hawkish democrat. this is not the republican party. that said the stuff that rand paul is saying out there is not insane which is what the strong implication is. he is saying stuff that frankly a lot of americans believe too. maybe congressional authorization is not the worse thing in the world before we go to war, for instance. he is getting a little desperate. >> i wonder on that initial question i asked you, because you look at the paul family name in politics. rand paul was running in 2012. there was controversy about a newsletter with his name on.

there was racial and ethnic stuff in there. there has been a taint around the paul name from that and that mccain people would love to put on rand paul to discorrect hit politically. and rand paul is saying he had his picture taken with isis, and he didn't, that does end up helping them. >> the idea that rand paul is a clone of his father is demonstrated not being true because he supports some u.s. action abroad with regard to isis. and i think the newsletters are very different than what i think is likely an honest mistake, or if it wasn't, it was a bad moment of political strategy. again, what mccain's goal here is to say that this guy is nuts. we can't trust him. he is offering fairly reasonable

foreign policy ideas. >> john mccain, as far as i know, is not running for president in 2016. it seems like this is his cause, the party that he represented as the national candidate, that his party does not embrace a format. >> listen, john mccain is not a hawk, he represents the view, i think, traditionally of both parties. it was john kennedy that said this country would pay any price and spare any burden to protect this country. the isolationist policy of the 20s and 30s that lead to world war 2 just doesn't work. in june, he was again it.

and now public opinion moving in a different direction, he now changed his point of view. the fact of the matter is he has disqualified himself from being a serious candidate for president of the united states for two reasons. first of all these outlandish, outrageous crack pot comments regarding senator mccain. secondly the policy as advocated i think is not clear to the american people, that at best it is a fringe policy that puts us in grave, grave danger. so john mccain advocates, and he said it in 2008, we're in for the long haul. had people paid attention to that, including president obama who has been late to recognize the threats to the united states, we would not be in the position that we were in today. it was president obama and paul that referred to junior varsity. it was president obama that said we do not have a strike thategy.

and he will win zero primaries. >> there is a large constituency on the right, and a tradition on the conservative side of noninterventionism. i don't know if it is the majority of the party, is he that marginalized? >> there has been a libertarian streak in the republican party. those candidates have never won a nomination to be president of the united states. certainly ronald reagan who i think most republicans admire greatly did not advocate that philosophy. he was the one that said we're going to not surrender one quarter inch to the communist. so when you look at the totality of the situation, that is the

point of view of a very small number of republicans. i think john mccain represents the bipartisan view that led to the end of the cold war and met the great challenges that we have faced in the end of the century. >> i hearing aid to try to out reagan a real conservative, but he said libtarian is at the heart of conservatism. but again, i think rand paul is not whacky. i think john mccain is fighting for a party he tried to build, and the fact that he has to go after rand paul in such vicious terms suggests that maybe he is scared. >> thank you both for joining us. it brings us to the end of our show today. up next is "melissa

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this morning my question, is shondra rhimes doing it on purpose? where there is war, there is always politics. first, breaking news out of ferguson, missouri. good morning, i'm melissa harris perry. law enforcement are looking for two men that were involved in a shooting