too cautious. i'll take that criticism. because that's better than the alternative. >> that policy infringes on the constitutional liberty interest. we think that the policy is overly broad. there's a tension between the individual rights and the public health. >> i don't believe when you're dealing with something as serious as this, you can count on a voluntary system. this is government's job. i absolutely have no second thoughts about it. >> we have to be careful there are unintended consequences. they're really heroes. the idea we're being a little draconian, there are other ways to protect. go with the science. that's what we're trying to do here in our government. go with the science. >> i think it's common sense. i think it's important. it should be voluntary. it should be mandatory to protect the public health. >> quarantine measures are coercive workers against aid workers. why the most important is to

tackle the epidemic at its source. >> health workers are going into the hot zone. they are heroes. they are american heroes. and we have to incentivize that and find ways to do that on it while ensuring that the american people feel safe. >> if you treat ebola patients in west africa, should you be automatically put into quarantine for three weeks when you get back, whether or not you're sick? i'm toure. as we come on the air today, that is the debate consuming an anxious, though largely misinformed nation. the latest, at least five states are now imposing these quarantines aimed at returning health care workers. new jersey has the least, nurse kaci hickox, tested negative for ebola and has become the face of this quarantine debate. now the state is allowing for home quarantines, not forcing workers into these tents. >> i'm very happy she's released from the hospital. i understand she was uncomfortable. and no one likes to be in a hospital. but we're not going to take any

ricks with the public health of new jersey. >> the same protocol is now in place in new york. critics say dr. craig spencer should have been in quarantine before developing symptoms here at his home in upper manhattan. but medical experts disagree. connecticut and illinois also have similar home quarantine policies. virginia joined that list today as well. and florida is now running what they are calling 21-damy monitoring periods, including twice daily temperature checks. even some of the 4,000 american troops returning from west africa are now under this enhanced monitoring. they will not be granted leave for three weeks. the goal is to isolate possible imported cases of ebola, minimize the spread here at home. but the white house says, those policies are grounded in fear, not in science. if you don't have stomymptoms, are not contagious and a risk to the public. that's crucial to remember. you cannot spread ebola before you show symptoms. the obama administration is working on new guidelines for

returning health care workers to limit the impact on volunteers who are fighting on the front lines. >> the only way that we can entirely eliminate that risk is to stop this ebola outbreak in its tracks in west africa. and in order to succeed in sfoping this outbreak in west africa, we need doctors and nurses traveling to west africa to treat ebola patients. >> let's start first with nbc sarah doloff for the latest on dr. craig spencer who has ebola, and nurse kaci hickox, who does not. sarah? >> reporter: good after, toure. we want to talk first about kaci hickox who was released from the hospital around 1:20 this afternoon. she's currently en route to maine where she's going to finish out the rest of that quarantine period. as you mentioned, she's really become the face of the debate about these medical workers being forcibly quarantined after returning from ebola-stricken countries in africa to the u.s. now, she has described her experience after returning at

the airport, saying she was questioned for hours and later kept in in climate-controlled tent at the hospital, all of this despite testing negative for ebola. she's calling for humane and respectful treatment of these returning health care workers. numerous groups joining her in her call for that, saying this quarantine unfairly sigma tieses health care workers and also will prevent other volunteers from going to assist with that outbreak in africa. now, speaking of those health care workers on the front lines, dr. craig spencer is at bellevue here behind me where he is in serious but stable condition. he tested positive for ebola shortly after returning to the u.s. from volunteering in guinea. now, we're told he tolerated a mras th plasma transfusion very well, from nancy ebola patient nancy writebol who says she is happy to give it and she's praying for spencer. we're also waiting on the test results from a 5-year-old boy

inside the hospital. he had a low-grade fever. we're told that he had been recently in one of those three ebola-stricken countries in africa. and so they're running tests on him. they're expecting those this afternoon, possibly early evening, but once again a low-grade fever had been to one of those african-stricken countries. enough cause for concern, toure, so they decided to test him just to be sure. back to you. >> sarah doloff, thank you for that report. medical organizations are speaking out against these mandatory quarantines. especially the broad-reaching ones for health care professionals. one of those is s.h.e.a., society for health care each democratolo epidemiology. they believe it will make fewer volunteers to go to west africa. welcome back to the show, doctor. can you expound on your view or why or why not these quarantines

of returning health care workers will not work? do you think it will discourage health care workers from wanting to go to these stricken countries? >> yes, thank you. >> i believe and s.h.e.a. believe it needs to be on ebola science evidence, how it's transmitted. we have strong evidence ebola is not transmitted by those who have no symptoms. no symptoms, no transmission. you've said that clearly on this show. it needs to be repeated. viewers need to tell their friends, no symptoms, no transmission. in that case, mandatory quarantine, removing people from society, keeping them in their own homes, really is not justified. this whole question of voluntary versus mandatory, i don't think we're not saying we ought not to be monitoring these individuals. that monitoring should be mandatory.

twice daily symptom and fever checks, contact with local public health officials every day. if they lose contact with local public health, then maybe a reason for quarantine. but a mandatory quarantine of healthy health care workers who provided help for ebola cases, it's just not justified. >> doctor, this is ari out in dallas where a lot of folks are still concerned about this issue. it's certainly instructed to have the medical and scientific community explain to the country why some of this does look like overreaction. yet, i wonder if there's a potential mistake being made here as if there is an objective or single objective policy solution. could you walk us through how any medically related policy like this, that seeks to contain, is going to have to deal with an error rate or in

the law what they would talk about being overinclusive. sometimes when the risk is high, you do want to draw the lines wider and get people who might be presymptomatic, because you're so concerned about the nature of the spread, cue waoul walk us through the certainty level of that? >> right. so, i think it is a balance, but it has to take into account about what we know how a virus spret spreads. there are viruss that can be transmitted before symptom onset. the thing about ebola, if there's anything good about ebola, you don't transmit it when you don't have symptoms. not only that, but when you're early on in the symptomatic period, transmission by casual community contact does not occur. you mentioned dallas. and i think if there's something we can learn among many things from dallas, it's that community risk for ebola right now in the u.s. is pretty much zero. if we can learn anything about mr. duncan's tragedy, two health

care workers acquired ebola but he had 20 close community contacts, including family and friends, zero transmissions. despite the fact he was sent home with a fever. so he actually had symptoms early in the course of disease. so, i think we need to apply what we know about ebola transmission and we have carefully conducted ep deem logic studies from prior outbreaks that tell us transmission occurs from very sick individuals who have ebola virus infection. not from people with no symptoms or very early in the disease process. and i think if we apply those lessons, that helps to guide our public policy. >> right. doctor, the idea of quarantining folks returning home as a way to reassure the public, that as you're indicating clearly, if you don't have symptoms, you are not contagious, there's no public health threat there, this

would be a way to reassure the panicky public. but doesn't actually overreaction from public officials, doesn't that furthered three hysteria among the public? >> yes. i agree with you. i totally understand the impulse to respond to the fear of ebola or the idea of ebola in our public policy and our protocols. but there's no end to that. if you decide to be overly stringent or overreact, the public feels that, yes, their fears are justified. then you can go further. there's really no end to it. so i agree that we need to temper this impulse to sort of overreact in order -- as a response to unfounded fear. >> one of the constituencies raising objection to the quarantine are those that focus on hiv. there's about 100 at bellevue,

coalition of doctors, researchers, activists, saying this is a mistake and reminds them of mistakes in the 1980s when there was initial panicky public reaction to hiv. when you have a novel infectious disease like this where people are scared of it and learning about it. how do you ensure we don't panic and take overly reactive precautions. >> i think it's very difficult. i don't mean to imply any of these decisions are easy because this is uncharitied water for the u.s. to have ebola patients on u.s. soil. i completely understand some of the reaction that's occurred. just as with hiv, what we need to do is educate, educate, educate about how the virus is transmitted and who is and isn't at risk. the other parallel is we need to make sure not to stigmatize

anyone. in this case, stigmatizing those who are brave enough to go and provide care for ebola virus disease patients either here in the u.s. or in west africa. and i didn't answer part of the first question that was asked. will this have a negative impact on this volunteerism, people stepping forward to provide, you know, during this urgent need. and i'm afraid that it will. and we need to avoid that inasmuch as possible. >> doctor, thank you very much for that. later, where i come down on this heated debate. that's at the end of the show. next, an update to the breaking news we brought you here on the school shooting in washington state. fresh concerns about isis's growing arsenal of weapons. the new threat to america and coalition forces. "the cycle" rolls on. it's monday, october 27th. so guys -- it's just you and your honey. the setting is perfect.

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cycling on msnbc, a somber story, a second young victim has now died in that high school shooting. that was near seattle. she is 14-year-old gia soriano. two others remain in critical condition showing no signs of improvement at this point. another of the other victims, 14-year-old nate hatch, a cousin of the shooter, has been upgraded to satisfactory condition. school is closed all week as that community continues to grieve. and turning now to the war on terror and a troubling new development regarding isis, you probably saw this this morning on the front page of the "new york times," isis released

images that they claim shows them downing an iraqi chopper using surface-to-air missiles. the group is also publishing a guide to show their followers how to use surface-to-air missiles as u.s. and coalition strikes continue throughout iraq and syria. should we be worried they could shoot us down? let's talk to evan coleman at the table. thanks for being with us. >> thank you. >> so, with these surface-to-air missiles, if this video is, in fact, accurate, how much more difficult does that make our task there? >> look, good news/bad news. the good news is that they didn't just get these missiles. these folks, insurgents, isis insurgents, have had these missiles since 2005. there was a video of iraqi insurgents firing these missiles as planes landing at baghdad international airport, helicopters flying by. the bad news is that there are more of these missiles out there

because they have lewded the stores so there are more of these things floating around. they are closer to targets they can hit. a helicopter here or there is not going to change the entire momentum of the conflict. if someone was to sit outside of baghdad international airport on an approach path and started shooting at these aircraft, as they did back in 2005 and they hit a dhl aircraft on the way down, that's more dramatic and that's and we have to look out for. >> you talk about the momentum of the conflict. a lot of us have been talking about the battle for kobani. some talk about the battle for baghdad coming soon. do you think these are the key battles or something else? >> kobani makes good headlines and makes good nightly news broadcast. but really the issue there is about us trying to stop another massacre of civilians. it's not important in items of the overall conflict. the major battles we're looking for, number one, the battle for baghdad. we're seeing isis encircling

baghdad. we know at some point they'll make a move on the capital and we'll have to see how serious that is. a lot of people don't think they have the ability to hold baghdad but what damage can they do in the meantime? should iraqi forces turn this battle around, the really big battles, the battles for mosul, one of iraq's largest cities, a place isis has taken over and held for months. it is the -- it's a major center of society and civilization in northern iraq. and it's that battle, if it even happens, will determine the future of isis and whether or not isis can be defeated inside of iraq. let's know the crisis began when isis took mosul and started this vast swath across northern iraq. >> far off that battlefield we still see reports of lone wolf attacks and intelligence agencies concerned about more. if your view, what is isis's

reaction to these often isolated or separate lone wolf incidents? >> look, they love this. they are rallied by this. as far as they are concerned, this is free. they haven't done anything other than this but put videos on the internet and you have crazy people following their lead. isis is not very discriminating in that regard. al qaeda is much more discriminating when it comes to recruits. al qaeda doesn't want to be associated with crazy lunatics. not just individuals rallied by isis, but major nadal hassan, the individual behind the ft. hood massacre. he's told his jailers that now that he's seen the publicity surrounding isis, he wants to declare himself to be a citizen of the isis state. he wants to be -- declare himself to be a citizen of the islamic state. those are the kind of people rallied by isis. sure, isis loves the publicity and they love they can get these kind of people to do their bidding. >> what do we do about that? counterterrorism strategies very often revolve around disrupting

networks and stopping combined operations. in this case, these are just people who are inspired by something. how do we stop lone wolfs like that? >> unfortunately, the best way of stopping these folks really comes down to the families. we've seen in the past where family members, mothers, fathers, sons, cousins, they've noticed something is wrong with their relative. the person watches beheading videos and suicide bombings all day long. they talk about wanting to go to syria or trying to get access to their passport. niece are things family members need to pay attention to. we saw the case in colorado where two young girls -- three young girls traveled all the way to turkey by the time they got stopped and turned back. it shouldn't be the point where they're in turkey where the parents realize something is wrong. it really is the responsibility of parents to keep an eye on their kids to watch what their kids are chatting about on the internet. if your son or daughter is having a conversation about an isis jihadist over in syria,

there's nothing innocent about that. that's something you have to pay attention to. i know it sounds strange to say that, but there are people out there who seem to think, it's not a big deal. >> it's a phase. >> it's a phase, it's a fad. it's not a phase. it's not a fad. not everyone who watches beheading videos or suicide bombing videos becomes a jihadist and goes to syria or iraq. but bottom line, if you think something is wrong, it's time to have a serious discussion. these are the warning signs. say something. if you see a family member, if they're beyond rational thought, doing something that's a threat, not just to you but other people in this country, it's your responsibility to let people know about it, to inform authorities. >> family and community have to step up here. evan coleman, thank you very much. >> thank you very much. up next, hot to the trail. right now mitt romney is actually campaigning for pat roberts in kansas. he will take the stage now at any moment. and he's not the only familiar face out there on the stump. why do i cook for the holidays? to share with family

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just eight more days of that sweet music. voters head to voting polls. don't count those chickens just yet, america. many of the key senate races are so tight, anything can still happen in colorado, republican challenge enger cory gardner has the lead but just by one point. jhon joni ernst has one-point lead. outside money is come barreding kansas where greg orman seems to be running out of steam. tom cotton's lead is two down from five last month. if you like nasty campaigns -- >> i love nasty campaigns. >> -- north carolina is the place for you, josh, where incumbent senator kay hagan and thom tillis are tied. here is jake for the politico.

if you were a betting man and you could wager on the composition of the senate after election day, would you be willing to bet big on the senate going red or would you say, no, it's too close to call, i can't put my money down on that? >> to note, i'm not a gambling man. it's illegal. i want to clear that up for anyone who has any questions. >> lame. >> but i would bet yes, everything looks like it's trending toward the republicans. i've traveled a bunch covering house races this -- these last couple of months. the president's approval rating, even in democratic districts are really bad. but it is important to note that republicans have spent a lot of money and the races are still tight. i mean, you just spoke about it in the intro. two points in most states. very, very narrow margins. so it could go either way,fy were a betting man, which again i'm not, i would not put any money on this because it's extraordinarily close. >> jake, you had a great piece

up at politico on kevin mccarthy, new house majority leader and what he wants to do if your republicans were to take control of the house and the senate. he says, i do know this. if we don't capture the house stronger and the senate and prove we could govern, there won't be a republican president in 2016. if they were to take control of the senate, do you think the republicans could actually come together and have some sort of governing agenda or is the base going to derail that? >> we've seen the house republican majority over the last few years, famously and we've talked about it on the show a number of times shlgs it's bungled through huge messes, shut down the government and that was with control of just one chamber. it gets very difficult with 240 house members who are not afraid to express their opinions and 50-something republican senators. everybody has a different kind of view of where the party should go. the presidential candidates is a huge field.

everyone will have their view of where to go. so, it's going to get messy. it's going to be interesting. what mccarthy is doing is he's already laying the groundwork for republican senate, has been meeting quietly with republican senators. already has some ideas about holding a joint retreat if republicans take the senate. so, they're definitely trying to smooth things over before anything -- any governing happens. before it's going to be a show to watch. >> jake, we still talk a lot about election day in america but in most parts of the country there's an election day. there's early voting. i'm down here in texas and have been covering some of the ground game here. i was out at churches yesterday. the early voting here from what i've seen has been strong. i saw long lines yesterday. i went by battleground texas, there on the screen now, where you got a big field operation. and the statistics also bear that out. texas looking already right now at having over 15% of the entire 2010 midterm universe having

turned out. voting is up. both sides will tell you, r&d, that's good for them. what is your view in the key states of how early vote is playing out? >> nowhere is more notable than colorado where, thanks to the democratic governor who actually might lose, every single voted voter in the state gets a ballot at home. it's the first election where this has happened. it lowers the barrier. you're seeing a lot more people voting. one interesting thing is happening with early voting in nevada. steven horseford, a democrat in a very strong democratic district s struggling in early voting and has to have bill clinton come and do a rally for him this week. this is a district obama won by 12 points in 2012. and he's having to bring in bill clinton to get the vote out. early voting ends in nevada saturday, and i believe he's out in nevada tomorrow. i mean, it's incredibly

important to show how things are trending up. see in president obama's approval ratings, even in a sdprikt where he won by double digits, it's remarkable. >> are there other sleeper races you think we haven't been paying attention to that might surprise us on election night? >> i think lynn jenkins in kansas, republicans will say she's coming back. she's a member of house republican leadership but sam brownback, pat roberts, the senator, are lagging, to say the least. so, that's affecting lynn jenkins and she's having to raise money and really go out strong. this sh a very strong republican district in a really strong republican state that she's having to really campaign in. you see steve sutherland in florida, a republican in house republican leadership. i'm not sure if you're sensing a pattern here. running against graham, daughter of former senator bob graham. that's going to be an incredibly interesting race to watch.

in nebraska, republicans seem to have all but given up on lee terry, who's a long-time incumbent. privately republicans in washington say, he's done. he will not be coming back. he's been here about 16 years. he is not run a great campaign and will likely lose, it looks like. >> i'm glad you said you're not a betting man because i bet, josh, you would say that. jake sherman, thanks. up next, the hidden world of debt collecting and the lengths some companies go to to get you to pay up. plus, pirates on the high seas with a vice.

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what if we finally had that would be amazing. hey, what if we took down this wall? what if this was my art studio? what if we were pre-approved? shut up! from finding to financing, how'd you do that? zillow. we've all gotten the call. debt collectors harassing you for money you owe and sometimes you don't. using every technique known to man. if you thought they were shady, a new book says you don't even know the half of it. bad paper goes inside the lightly regulated world of debt

collections for an inside look at shady practices that make up this industry. here with us is the book's author, jake hallprin. tell us how you found this work? >> the starting point is my mother. someone was calling her for a debt she did not owe. my mother is a tough cookie but this guy got her to pay so he would stop making these calls. >> she didn't even owe the money am. >> no. i'm not investigative journalist. i said, how much does this happen? so, i wrote an investigative piece for "the new yorker" in which i looked at this world and it happens quite a bit. basically, the banks sell these debts off for pennies on the dollars, and these get bought, sold and sometimes stolen, which is what i wrote about in the book. >> part of what you say is debt collection agencies use, employ thugs to badger, cajole people or threaten people to get their money back. >> what's interesting in this

particular story is it's a partnership between a former banker and a former bank robber, former armed robber. >> who did ten years? >> who did ten years in the can. he's a south boston tough guy. i asked the banker, what's up? why are you partnering with this guy? the banker said, this is an unregulated world. i quickly realized i couldn't call the authorities and i couldn't rely on a lawsuit to protect me. so, when trouble comes and my debt gets stolen, which it does, i call the armed robber and he packs a car full of guys with guns and they drive down and sort it out. this is what happens in the absence of regulation. >> wow. that is wild. obviously, that practice, illegal, also some of the practices you detail to try to get people to pay are illegal. and yet there's very little accountability. there were 119,549 complaints to the ftc in 2009. and one enforcement action. why is there -- why is there no accountability here? why is there no regulation? >> yeah. well, the ftc has been

increasing gradually the number of enforcement they've made and now -- >> now they're at six. >> they're at six. >> you know, it's hard. the consumer financial protection bureau is also in this space now. just to give a sense for what they're up against, the cfpb, doing a pretty good job, their operating budget for 2013 was just 2% of what jpmorgan chase had set aside for litigation costs and fees in that same year. so, this ain't a fair fight. that's what you're seeing. >> so, how should this business work? obviously, there needs to be a way to collect debts in order for people to lend and, you know, a lots of the people who have these bad debts, they're not all banks. sometimes it's doctors' offices and people not in a good position to pursue the people with the money. how can we have an industry that collects these debts without being abusive? sdmrooing the first thing that has to happen is we have to have some organization for how these debts are bought and sold. for example, if you're selling me a car and you tell me, hey, jake, this is a great car but i got no chain of title, no v.i.n.

number for the car and no dmv for you to check, i'd say you're crazy, we can't do business like that. that's basically how consumer debt is bought and sold in this country. no one is keeping track of how it's bought and sold. this isn't a republican or democrat issue. this is common sense. someone has to keep track of who owns this debt and the information has to be good. when you call me up, you can say here's your account statements, the breakdown of interest and principle. i'm on the other end and i have some confidence that, a, you own it and, b, the debt is accurate. >> but this unregulated world you talk about is perfect for certain types of people, the thugs we talked about. the bank robber, you say, said he made more money doing this than he did in years of bank robbing. >> yeah, he did. he said the first time he got his bonus check as a collector, he said this was better than the days when i used to rob the banks. i have have to say, the weird thing about this world was, and what i've drawn in the book, is that the bank robber actually had a coated of hde of honor th bank robber trusted than he --

he said wall street lawyers look good and talk pretty but they pay someone so they don't have to talk to you. the armed robber is rough around the edges but i can trust him. it's an upside down world i discovered. >> talk about the experience of some of the debtors. you mentioned your mother. what were other stories from debtors who were harassed by these people. >> one debtor in this story, she's a woman named theresa, a former marine. sher husband leaves her and she's stuck with the mortgage. she goes into debt and gets a call. the guy sounds respectable enough. she pays off the debt and only later discovers that it doesn't reflect on her credit report. she hasn't paid the people that own the debt. she's paid the thieves that stole the debt. and this is when brandon, my armed robber gets his guys full of gun, goes down and puts a stop of the guys who have gont ahold of the stolen dent. sometimes you have consumers who want to pay their debt but they're not necessarily paying the people that own it or the information is so inaccurate, they don't even know what the

right amount -- >> this is a real horror story. >> yeah. it's spooky. a world that exists just under the surface and we're a lot closer to it than we realize. >> amazing. thanks so much. up next, a new film that may have you rethinking your perspective on modern pirates. >> i'm a fisherman. >> no. you're not fisherman. you're a pirate. you're [ bleep ] pirate, okay? a. everyone has questions about money. you know, i think about money kind of a lot. -money's freedom. -money's always on my mind. credit cards. -mortgage. -debt. it's complicated. it's not easy. i'm not a good budgeter. unfortunately, i'm a spender. i would love to learn more about finances. so there's questions about the world that all of us have, especially about money and finance. the goal of khan academy and better money habits and the partnership we're doing with bank of america is to give people the tools they need to empower themselves.

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you're -- hands up! >> all right, all right. >> all right, all right. >> look at me. >> sure. >> look at me. >> sure. >> i'm the captain now. >> the 2013 oscar nom named "captain phillips quts" recount relife hijacking of the mersk alabama told by captain phillips. at that time somali pirates held 32 boats and 726 hostages all at once. hijackings and fears of those hijackings were definitely at a peak. but a new film by vice offers a different perspective. it's looked at from a pirate's point of view.

>> "fishing without nets" tells the story of a local somali fisherman who turns to p s tpir order to support his family. it premieres on digital on demand tomorrow. joining us is the film's director. thanks for being with us. >> thank you for having me. >> what inspired you to make this film from sort of the pirate's point of view, taking, i guess, a more nuanced view of piracy and what leads to it?

>> you know, i was just fascinated with the whole topic, you know, and it began back in 2008-2009 when it was really an epidemic. you know, we began making a film back then that just explored who does this and why. and, you know, the film is based on a short film from 2012 that sort of attempted to do the same thing. we just felt like this is -- this is what was most interesting to us. this is the story that no one is talking about. and this is one that needs telling. and it -- from a film-making standpoint, it just felt right for doing something fresh and interesting. >> yeah, you mentioned film making, vice a lot more known for its documentaries. why did they want to go and do more of a narrative film for this one? >> they wanted to do a narrative film because our short film was really, really a great example of what this could possibly be. and they -- >> it was that good. >> it was that good, i guess. it was -- it was -- they're

basically beginning to make fictional films. this is their first one. it comes from the same place, the same spirit as their documentaries. and this film is basically that. so, it's the first fictional film for vice and really fits in some of the spirit of telling a story that nobody else is telling. >> part of the message i get out of looking at this is that if you leave people steeped in chronic poverty, right, prison -- chronically poor people, liing in an area where there's failed government, eventually some of them will turn to violence. the clip we showed, the man says, hey, a man is not a man until he can feed his family and i'm not going to let anything but death stop me from feeding my family. >> yeah, you know, i like to think that every scar has a story. and every -- everybody has a background and a motivation for something. and something as desperate as

becoming a pirate in somalia is a product of living in that country and that environment. it's a desperate tactic. we wanted to show that and wanted to show that that it's not as simple as every film makes it to be, is that it's sort of good guys and bad guys. this is a story that has a very gray area. and we really wanted to focus on that. >> obviously, we don't support folks being violent, but in the experience of making this film, do you have much more sympathy for where these folks are? >> absolutely. you know, it began from a place of sympathy and began from a place of curiosity as to what would make somebody do this? so, you know, we -- i would say that it was a natural growth, but it was ultimately one where we discovered that there are reasons. they aren't just purely bad guys. they are criminals and they are doing something criminal, but there's a reason and there's a motivation.

and that's what the film expl e explor explores. >> it seems to me like this is kind of in a long tradition in hollywood. pirate movies are a long tradition. it's strange to me because it's armed robbery and kidnapping. r kidnapping to sea, it become this is sort of storied thing, but isn't this just, you know, another kind of violent crime? what's the reason to try to make that nuanced? >> i think because it's a place than been left behind by the rest of the world. it's a place where there's been a failed government for 20 years. it's a place where civil war has been on the -- you know, has been going on for decades, and i think it's -- it was grabbing the headlines, and i think this was a story that -- that needed to be told, and it isn't as simple, i don't think, as saying it's just purely armed robbery, because there's so much more leading up to it and what it -- what it is, but ultimately it's

a business. ultimately it's something that people are doing to try to survive. that's what the film is about. >> historically piracy has always been a big test of the nations' systems, because all the rules are rooted in their countries. the farther away you get, you get into more of a literal no-man's-la no-man's-land. we do have laws on the sea, we know they don't work well. this is one of the last areas that is truly literally lawless, it feels like at times. >> absolutely. it's pretty astounding that the piracy has slowed down as much as it had has for years it seemed like the perfect place for this to happen, one of the most heavily trafficked shipping lanes in the world. there's a failed state with no one that can patrol that brought of a distance of ocean, and you have these people about to do do that.

it's pretty astounding to me, and sill wonder what ultimately sort of on the ground activity has caused that to stop, because i can't -- i don't actually really believe that the navies have been able to patrol such a large part of the ocean. i really wonder whether there's been any ground attacks by or government and military in somalia. >> did you talk to actual pirates about their motivations? >> we spoke to some actual pirates, we spoke to some hostages. we spoke to some people who were involved in handling the ransom payments and negotiating. we spoke to a variety of people to try to make this authentic. we spent years researching. so we -- the authenticity of this film is important both from the protection of the somalis, and being true to the whole situation. >> thank you, cutter, so much. up next "the cycle" comes full circle.

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see car insurance in a whole new light. liberty mutual insurance. how should we treat people who run home from warn this people who volunteer to go to dangerous places and put their lives at risk to do battle with the scariest threats to our society? how should we treat them when they come into? doctors and nurse toss travel to liberia and sierra leone are self-sacrificing warriors, yet our newest idea is to subject those returning professional to

a three-week mandatory hospital quarantine. this is what the governors of new jersey and new york announced last week, whether or not they were symptomatic. both cuomo and christie backed off of that yet after a storm of criticism and white house pressure, but not before hearing an earful from kaci hickox, who finished a tour last weekend and flew back to land in quarantine, a makeshift tent in a newark hospital that she called inhumane. she wrote -- i sat alone in the isolation tent and thought of my colleagues who would return home and face the same ordeal. with they be made to feel like criminals and prisoners? now they will be able to be carnitined at home and be compensated for lost income, a much more humane policy. much more may be saying, what is the matter with carnitining these people in a hospital? shouldn't we employ all possible

precautions? shouldn't i get to go bowling in peace? well, the first problem is quarantines asymptomatic people is unhelpful. it's completely unnecessary. i'm a believer, he said, in an abundance of cause, but not a believer of an dunnens of idiot sill. it's just security theater, appearances to keep us safe. it's public policy driven by fear, not evidence. even though it plays well in this tribal political world, wouldn't images of an asymptomatic nurse living in a tent stoke more ebola panic? it has a dangerous side effect that could make this epidemic worse, automatic quarantining could deter professionals from going to battle where needed.

in liberia, the number is 1.4, in sierra leone, 2.3. in guinea, 10. we needh diha many more profess. we have many doctors and nurses spending their days treating infectious diseases. no doctors would treat infectious diseases, and we would all be at much greater risk. we need reasonable protocols that are based more on science and less on soothing the fierce of the least informed voter. kaci hickox wrote -- i am scared about how health care workers will be treated at airports when they declare they have been fighting ebola. i am too, casei. those are the people we really need right now. that does it for "the cycle."

"now with alex wagner" starts right now. fear versus science. which one is governs decisions on ebola. it's monday, october 27th. >> we are not taking risks with the public health in new jersey. ♪ to quarantine or not to quarantine. >> we just learn that nurse kaci hickox will be discharged. >> after a reversal. >> she's become the face of the push back against these mandatory quarantines. >> she says she was held here against her willing. >> the reason she was put in the hospital in the first place is she was running a high fever and symptomatic. >> governor christie saying he has no second thoughts? sometimes it's worth having second thoughts. >> imprisoning this nurse who took her vacation time to go overseas is really terrible. >> we have to snuff it