iii, but now it has surfaced. it only brings home the sacrifice, pain, set-ups and all kinds of entrapments people endured to get some of the rights we enjoyed. it should make us hold onto them and be aggressive about making sure their sacrifice was not in vain. thank you for joining us. "hardball" starts right now. >> should we just get out of iraq? let's play hardball. good evening, i'm chris matthews in washington, george wilson called the 2003 invasion of iraq quote, the worst foreign policy decision in u.s. history. what does it say about the last 11 years of blood, death, and

anger that the country's most conservative thinker believes it is the worst decision in our history? well, it means we need to rethink left, right and center to plan militarily in the middle east and change events. certainly we need to re-think if we can improve them and realize if we have been there that we can make it much worse that we can take a troubling person like hussein, and the problem is should we spend more money after bad, double down and send more troops into iraq knowing the country is not ready to face the hard test before it. the former government of vermont and jim mcdermott, the current governor of washington state. there are thousands of troops in iraq, the chairman of the joint chiefs general martin dempsey raised the possibility that he

could recommend u.s. troops be part of combat operations now with iraq sometime in the future. let's watch the general. >> there are some places along the path that i think will be fairly complex terrain for them, including for example, mosul, i'm not predicting that i would recommend that the forces in mosul would need to be accompanied by u.s. forces but we're considering enforcing it. >> general, what do you think about doubling down at this point? >> well, i support the president's attacks on isis from the air, but if there was ever a lesson from vietnam in particular is that you cannot fight for people who won't fight for themselves. the shiite army is a disaster. the shiite militia is not a disaster but they are terrorists. we ought not to have troops on the ground. i understand a few advisers. i get that. the idea of american troops going into combat is a huge

mistake. our allies, they're reliable. the kurds. we have a great relationship with them, we're not bosom buddies with iran, which is always a mistake. i think the president needs to watch out. i'm supporting him on isis. i'm not going to support a bunch of advisers, nor will i support combat troops in mosul. >> right now we have a choice, do we support the president's decision to double the advisers or troops, as he is saying today, we may go into combat? >> well, i think the president will make a serious mistake if he does not is in that the congress take a vote on this issue. we have to have a debate in the congress over this issue otherwise they have set the trap for him to be out there by himself making decisions. for two years it will be his war. and i really think that we have

to be very, very careful. like the governor, i think 30,000-foot drones are one thing. but you cannot make that work. you have to have people on the ground that you can trust. and that means we're going to have to use the iraqi army, which has certainly turned out to be a very paper thin operation. if we're going to put revisers in to slip them up, it is what the general is talking about in terms of putting troops on the ground -- >> can i just throw something in here really quickly? the major mistake that was made, which left the opening for isis was nouri maliki, who is basically a stooge of the iranian government who we empowered, use shiite to suppress the sunni. if there is going to be any liberation in getting away from isis, i think we'll have to have

sunni, which i don't think nouri maliki or the iranian army will tolerate. this is a mess, i don't mind trying to get rid of idea who is a very dangerous group of people. i do mind getting emmeshed in this political zoo. you know, 11 years ago i said this would split the country up. we do not need to have troops on the ground in iraq. >> does it impress you the defense minister is soon to be naming -- >> that alone is not enough. that alone is not enough. they're going to have to have a real sunni army and they will have to support the army and that is not what this pro-iranian government in baghdad has been willing to do. >> let's look at this thing that "the washington post" reported yesterday. he ran through the progress of the iraqi government and the

progress talking about the contract, where millions went missing. on the issue of sectarianism. and a group that is seen by sunnis as little more than a shiite death squad. in terms of military training the u.s. spend upwards of a billion to train the military. they collapsed in the face of the isis aggression. the government also has been slow to reach out to the kurds. and the new prime minister in iraq has failed in the outreach to closer governments. but he notes the new prime minister has yet to even travel to saudi arabia. congressman, when you talk to to the fellow representatives, if there were an up and down vote on iraq, would it pass? >> i think it would be very, very tough to get the votes to

get it to pass. one thing that has not been talked about yet is the whole iranian impact. if we don't finish the negotiations on nuclear power with the iranians and get them in, in a positive way in the situation to pull back on all the mayhem that is coming from the iranian side from the shiite side you are going to continue to have people switch and go and fight with the isis. you have a lot of sunnis, who are fighting with isis who don't like them. don't want to be with them. but they see no alternative. baghdad is executing them. and iran is standing by. and they have no one else to fight with but isis. so you have to get iran to pull back in this whole thing. >> i don't think there still is a government of iraq. i don't think, gentlemen, that this notion we have of a tri-party country of kurds and sunni and shiite exists anymore. what makes you think that it is more real than isis is real? i think isis looks like it is

becoming a country, howard dean, it looks like isis will be around for a while, where as the so-called government -- the shiite government which is basically an agent, a satellite of iran, it looks like to me. >> right. i think that is right. and let's not forget that iraq never was a country. we drew a -- we didn't. the british and french drew a bunch of lines in i think it was 1921. and created this country which is not a country. saddam hussein held it together by sheer brutality and oppression. the same thing is happening in syria, by the way. i do not think, however, that isis is going to hold territory. i do think that if we can get the turks to be a little more helpful in allowing the kurds to get an army and support them to

push isis back it would be very dangerous to let isis control territory. it would be the same as afghanistan, where they used it as a base to kill 3,000 americans in new york in 2001. so we do have some business there. but the business has to be self-defense in our own interest not trying to straighten out iraq. we missed that boat a long time ago when george bush sent all of our folks over there in 2003. >> george w. bush went out there and was asked about the iraq war. let's watch. >> do you have any regrets about that, mr. president? >> i have regrets that -- >> i mean, do you ever feel that maybe it was the wrong decision? >> no, i think it was the right decision. my regret is that a violent group of people have risen up again. this is nouri maliki-plus. i put in the book, they need to be defeated. and i hope we do.

>> not against that man, personally, but his notion of what is going on over there is so deluded. he has decided after a while this is the worst decision this president and we've ever made as a country. now you have a guy coming on saying this has been great. this is what we wanted over there and find some way of finding al qaeda in this mess, al qaeda was created after we got in there in iraq. al qaeda in iraq. so does anybody -- does he read the newspaper? i don't know what he reads. >> it was run by cheney and the neocons to get into this war. i agree with george will totally. he said he would lie to us to get us into this war. and he did. and he got us in and had no idea what he was opening up. he was opening up pandora's box.

he didn't understand the kurds and the turks and all of what is going on. he didn't understand the iranians, the giving the power to nouri maliki. all of that was one mistake after another because he had no concept what he was getting into when he brought the troops in there. they just said mr. president, we have to go in there and get saddam hussein, i can understand that because his father had a thing about that. >> his father made it clear, not to go in there. destabilizing the region, just like we were all told don't stop the government of assad, it is amazing how many times we ignore the lessons of the experts. anyway, there is disturbing new video out there on line from a leftist anti-american group over in turkey. the group assaulted sailors from america which just disembarked on wednesday. the group attempted to put a

palace tige plastic bag over one of the soldiers. let's watch this video. >> you declare you're a member of the army, and now, because we define you as murderers, as killers we want you to get out of our land. our land -- we will -- we are using -- >> go home, yankee, go home, yankee -- go home yankee! >> governor, what do you think of that? it bugs me seeing the guys

humiliated. it is humiliating. >> one of the things that has not been written about is the dedemocritazion of turkey who has done well in the past 15 years. but the president of turkey is now becoming more authoritarian. it could very well have been his own people. turkey is not as stable as it used to be. i don't know what to make of the video because we really don't know a lot about how it happens. i agree. you see the troops humiliated. turkey wouldn't be an independent state without the united states because the russians would have pushed in there. i don't like to see that. we don't know who the people were. >> they claim they were

leftists, the enemy of the government, just remember, turkey is a member of nato, they're supposed to be on our side. thank you, congressman jim mcdermott, i follow everything you say. coming up, what happened after the republican victory. he is going to the left with a new deal on climate change and ready to veto the keystone pipeline deal. we know these things. it will rile up republicans.

elizabeth warren has a new big deal as a leadership role with the senate. she will be the new liaison, and it is a newly created post that helps to bring the democratic leadership some star power. warren is one of the big draws in the democratic party. and harry reid has been engaged in private talks to help elevate

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welcome back to "hardball." voters sent one hell of a message in last week's election. message received, was the response of president obama. >> so to everyone who voted i want you to know i hear you. to the two thirds of voters who chose not to participate in the process, i hear you too. >> that was nine days ago, since then president obama has been attacking the right and in some areas, veering left. the white house says he is ready to veto a keystone pipeline bill if it comes his way which some in the democratic party love. he sent some in a tizzy after the negotiation with china requiring them to slash our co2 emissions by 20%. he is about to walk into a lion's den, legalizing perhaps

some 5 million immigrants. the president could legalize five million people. and later, speaker john boehner told the republican conference they will go to war to stop the president on this. let's watch. >> we're going to fight the president tooth and nail if he continues down this path. this is the wrong way to govern. this is exactly what the american people said on election day they didn't want. and so all the options were on the table. we're having discussions with our members and there are no decisions made as to how we'll fight this. >> well, leslie sanchez is a republican strategist and a former adviser under president bush. sorry what i said about bush earlier only for you because it happens to be true. but we wouldn't go over old territories about wars we

shouldn't fight. but let's start off here leslie, what do you think will be the republican reaction and how it matters in terms of illegal immigration. basically issuing green cards basically, you can live in the country, work in the country, have social security live like an american. in fact, you don't quite get citizenship, about 5 million people here are without documents. that is an extraordinary reach with an executive order. what will it do to republicans? >> well, you know, thumbing your nose at congress especially after the biggest democratic realignment since 1928 and al smith. it is not the smartest political move, but it is that. a political move. and not a move to govern. it is reasonable to expect this is going to make it politically impossible to get the kind of votes he needs to have comprehensive reform or really pass legislation with the president. it is really ijust going to sto

the process and that is why i think you see the president defiant, moving hard on the left. which puts a nail in the coffin in louisiana and all of these other things in campaign mode as opposed to a governing mode. >> let's talk about something small board rather than legalizing 5 million people. let's talk about keystone pipeline which to me has a lot more heat in it. if that gets approved and the president overrides it, that is a heavy burden on the president to have personally stopped the keystone pipeline development. if he vetoes that and they can't override, don't get the two thirds plus one vote in both houses doesn't it put incredible pressure on him as the cork in the bottle? >> it does, not only that i would say if you look at in terms of where we go for the next two years we still have a few blue dog if you will

centrist democrats left, like my old boss, senator manchin and others. you're going to push them in a difficult place. and i think part of the problem here where the president faces a delicate dance and balancing act, you have to send a message to your base. you want to energize them, but at the same time you have two years where you have to work with the other side. if you make it so difficult right now during the lame duck session the next two years will make the last two years look like a picnic. >> chris, why would you want to energize your base? what will it go to? good christmas shopping? what will you get out of it? the election is over. he admitted two thirds of the people didn't show up. why does he want to energize them now rather than before the election when they would have voted? >> listen, i'm not saying it is the right decision, this is more about his legacy. but i'll tell you my concern is when i look at the polls and what happened on election night there were a lot of messages

being sent. one of them was, to both parties figure out how to work together. i think what you have seen from both sides, particularly republicans saying we're going to appeal obamacare again. you have seem them reluctant to figure out a way to work together. the president can do this because he believes in maybe the right thing to do but it will come -- complicate things to work together. maybe it will to the base but that will not help you going into the next two years. >> according to the poll, you alluded to after the mid-term elections 36% want the president to have the most influence over the direction of the country. more than half want the influence to go to the republicans. let me go back to leslie on that it suggests the message coming out was the one we got in the numbers. we saw who won. and when they were asked to put it in narration form, they said

yes. do you think there is a plausible root legislative illegal for the new republican-controlled congress to pass an immigration bill that would pass muster with moderate democrats and moderate hispanics? would there be such a bill? >> i do, i think there are a lot of areas that republicans and democrats agree on. if the speaker is allowed to push forward a bill that focuses on border security first. we have had this debate ten years on the hill. realistically can you get the hundred votes, maybe he is at 70 or 80, you can get closer to a deal where the republicans and democrats can come together and of course we need to do something about the individuals here who are undocumented. some want to be here, some want citizenship. but it is not like the president's approach where he is saying blanket amnesty. that is a distinction, chris, is

it closed borders and a select few get citizenship? there is a reasonable approach. to do so in this manner it would really jeopardize the speaker's ability -- >> i hate to beat a dead horse. why doesn't the house pass the bill -- >> for exactly the reasons you said. they don't believe there is enough there on border enforcement and security. >> they don't like the fact that it actually stops illegal hiring. and i think a lot of businesses want cheap labor. that is what i think. >> i agree, to put pressure on interior enforcement and the employers. >> i'm with you on that. >> the reasons why the republicans did not pass the senate immigration bill was because it was pure politics. they didn't want to do it because they thought it would hurt them in the mid-term elections. if i advised the president i would say call the bluff. we're in a lame duck session, pass the bill.

you have a chance to do it. if there is a difference between the two bills we can work it out there is still time, they wouldn't do it. so i think the president is making a dramatic statement. the republicans coming out saying we're really passionate about immigration, where was that in the last two years. >> why don't we have an allison grunden type election, where nobody knows where you voted. thank you, great to have you on. leslie, great to have you on, leslie sanchez coming on. coming up, another chapter in the presidential bromance, areas with bill clinton and you talk about a mental business there, hard for them to play politics. textile production in spain, and the use of medical technology in the u.s.? at t. rowe price, we understand the connections of a complex, global economy. it's just one reason over 70% of our mutual funds beat

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welcome back to "hardball. the daily show has been accused of flashing a gang sign during the get out the vote event. >> the community organizers were canvassing to encouraging people to get out and vote. one of the volunteers, the woman you see here in a purple hoodie sweatshirt is the minneapolis mayor, betsy hodges. >> that is grass root democracy at its finest, or to put it another away. >> this is a photo of minneapolis mayor betsy hodges, flashing a sign with a known gang member. >> that is a gang sign. >> all this time it has been a lead-in.

notorious gang member. >> i always knew that colbert was a troublemaker. following the mid-term election republican wave, he raised concerns as to who the democrats will tap on the future of the party, let's watch. >> it is a huge party. not just the farm team is being depleted. >> now who will they turn to when hillary blows out her knee. she will be on the dl. farm teams are crucial to developing the leaders. just two years before he ran for president barack obama was an illinois state senator. who could have imagined today he would be in the white house wishing he was an illinois state senator. >> i bet there are times barack obama misses the old days in springfield. anyway, finally, former president george w. bush released the new book this week about his father, titled simply

"41." already receiving positive notices, not from here. former president bill clinton tweeted out this image with the message, received my copy of 41, george bush, touching tribute. george bush responded, saying thanks, 42, hope you like your book about your pal, 41. and with the hash tag, brother from another mother, up next, the establishment republicans versus the red hots, the campaign for 2016 is on. plus, the right wing has a problem with bruce springsteen after tuesday's concert down in the mall here for america's veterans, full speed ahead now to the round table, you're watching hardball, the place for politics. i lost my sight in afghanistan, but it doesn't hold me back. i go through periods where it's hard to sleep at night, and stay awake during the day. non-24 is a circadian rhythm disorder

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i'm melissa reberger with daily news, there was a detailed

list of the breach at the white house, a security guard who was watching the security guard was in a van on his cell phone. nbc news learned another ebola patient is headed to the medical department, he was a surgeon in sierra leone before becoming sick. back to "hardball". time now for the round table of course, we'll dig into the big questions, including the debate over the war in iraq. should we continue it. plus, president obama's defiance, veering left after a republican wave. we know all that. and the competes conference con you will. the eastern conference, the republicans and they're a big city, gritty republicans, big money, more centrist and

secular, that is dominated by governor chris christie who is giving new signs he is running for president. then you have the western conference, this conference is characterized by christie conservatives, pro-family and pro-life. dominated by mike huckabee, pronounced differently by the people over on fox. we'll get into that. joining me now, the hardball round table. republican pollster and senior adviser to newt gingrich's campaign. i hope she likes that tag. and nbc news political reporter perry bacon. what do you think about this debate? somebody called me and said why are we still in iraq? i read the piece the other day, it really laid out they're sectarian. never going to be an inclusive

country again, why are we still sending advisers over to iraq? >> the short answer was the beheadings, the president was reluctant to go back in there, we in the press and the republicans pushed him. the beheadings are in people's memories still, and isis in people's memories. >> so if they stop beheading our people -- i think it is true. i mean, i think the reason -- america, first, don't mess with us and we will try to forget about you. >> america first, i side with perry on this. seeing these beheadings of innocent western citizens on your laptop will really crystallize public opinion on the sleepy, war-weary public. they are war weary, but at the same time they don't believe you can disengage. also chris, in large margins, they believe it is better to

fight it over here than fight it over there. >> i've heard that argument. let me ask you this, i think we're one massacre from pulling out. some of the troops get overrun. kelly is right, it is war-weariness, with the people being beheaded. what happens when the picture is massacre? >> i think you're right, i think it will be enough is enough is enough. chuck hagel as secretary of defense said two things today, number one we're going to stop at 3,000, 3,000 troops for the foreseeable future. but he also said it will be a multi-year effort to contain or at least contain the islamic state, isis. so what he is telling the american people, we'll keep it on maintenance level. it will be sort of low maintenance level. don't worry about it too much. we have just enough troops there to keep that kind of massacre from taking place, whether that

can actually work or not i don't know. if those troops were not there, isis may be overrunning baghdad right now. colin powell said famously if we break it we own it. and it is broken into pieces. kurdish, sunni, shiite, islamic state, four pieces and we're stuck with that. >> let's talk about the president since the election, the president is clearly heading towards an executive order legalizing, giving green cards to 5 million people, roughly half the people in this country illegally. what happens if he does that? >> he is misreading the election results, it will be a big blow back by both parties. point out to me any embattled democrat in a race this year, chris, i am for the president on amnesty -- they prefer that you work with congress. i also think he is making very difficult decisions, screwing

the pooch for anybody who runs in 2016. >> why does he feel the pressure -- >> i think this is what he wants to do. i think climate change and immigration, he wants to deal with before he leaves office. these are priorities for him. i -- >> he wants this on his wikipedia. >> i also think that -- from a practical, political point of view he doesn't necessarily agree with kelly. i think people around him -- >> i had a better election -- >> i know you had a better election, he had a pretty did one in 2012 and 2008. >> what are they telling him? >> bring it on, we can argue about the constitutionality of executive orders, what does he call it? executive amnesty?

>> probably what mary -- >> probably what -- that is probably what keystone pipeline -- let them argue about the constitution, fine. i'll take the people. >> why doesn't -- >> i'll take the votes in 2016. i'm going to take the votes in 2016? >> this is a guy who worked with newt gingrich to -- >> where is the center? >> it is nowhere near the center in amnesty. >> you're in center screen, as i said, chris christie is the eastern conference leader of the republican party right now. here is why, he won't resign as new jersey governor if he runs for president. he just had a hugely successful election, he raised over 100 million bucks, plus this morning after the party's mid-term victory, he is a full ginsburg,

as they say, five shows, he is in. mike huckabee is the western conference leader because the minute he shows any interest, all of a sudden he is the guy up there on the christian right. he, mike huckabee, is putting together a political team, leading in southern california, well -- i don't know what southern california has over there. obviously, he is thinking about john paul ii. and margaret thatcher, a trio of crowd pleasers. his book called god, guns, grit, in which he explores. anyway, i think -- please don't fight me over the concept. the old establishment wing tends to be east coast, very hawkish like rudy giuliani. >> how did he do? >> that is what i mean, the establishment wing always ends up winning for some reason. and then have you the culturally

conservative crowd, which are very same-sex marriage, they are hawkish, as well. do you think -- >> well, the -- >> first thing to the finals, also a guy like mike huckabee to the -- >> both lanes will be very crowded. i think you will end up with all the conferences of every major league sport, everyone who is thinking of running probably will. >> why is it all of a sudden crowded? >> it is crowded because people recognize after eight years of any one-party rule people generally look for something different. >> they couldn't have figured this out eight years ago? >> why is hillary beatable? >> 2014 is really the year of the beatable -- >> pull me -- >> hillary clinton makes 200 grand a speech. the average woman's income is 50,000, a quarter of that a year.

she has not driven since 1996. we need somebody who is relatable, not wealthy. you know why -- >> everybody is thinking like that in your party. >> the smart people are. but -- may i just say one thing. perry will love it. you know why -- do you know why the hillary clinton supporters are pushing for jeb bush? they want nine months from now all of us to be talking about do you want the third bush or a woman? not a fair fight. i'm not against jeb, i'm making the point she needs somebody less known to beat her. >> we'll be right back, some of it was partisan, some of it not. the right wing's latest beef with bruce springsteen. this is hardball, the place for politics. d funds d funds would go with a merging markets.

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while the conservatives are outraged this week over the song that bruce springsteen performed at the concert for valor on veteran's day this tuesday night. the song >> avoid the vietnam draft. ♪ well, that ripped the scab off. many took history with the fact that springstein played that particular song on this occasion.

here's what weekly standard magazine wrote about it. taking shots at the red, white and blue. it was a particularly terrible choice given the anti-draft song and this concert was largely organized to honor those who fought in afghan stand and iraq. >> first of all, it's a great song. as a song. that's the first thing. it's great rock music. number two, what a great country? is this a great country or what? a lot of different people out there singing a lot of different things from jennifer hudson doing the star spangled banner. i studied the words again of fortunate song, and, also, born in the usa, which is another song that he sang. in neither song do the people say we're not going. they didn't say screw this, we're not going. they went. that's the point. they went. whatever the flaws of american society were or are, whatever

the inequalities, whatever the special privileges, they went. they chose to go, circumstances might have forced them, but they went. and in a way, those songs are about pride and patriotism. they're not about we hate america. they're not. they're about the fact that you do your duty for yur country, ef everyone ov even if it's unfair. i think the people just don't understand the context. they don't understand the history and they have a pre-determined conclusion. they're not thinking like me. >> it's a different time. i don't think the draft has occurred -- most people don't want i back. >> do you think bruce springstei nrk n wanted to offend veter rans on veteran's day? of course not. everything is not political. it was a unifying event that stayed that way. >> yeah, a lot of people like

the battle hymn of the republic. >> it was a terrific concert. i have to tell you, i'm not a conservative who agrees with this. i can stay up to watch it because they recognized some of those artists who they don't associate with politics, what so ever. and i told them how nice it was that these artists all of whom have been very successful and gave up their time and their talent to honor the veterans. very important. >> it's diversity of opinion, too. what better way to celebrate what veterans sacrificed for than that? some conditions in this country and the fact that people served, regardless of that. a lot of people right now are serving are watching what you just said. thank you. that's a wonderful moment. i hope it's on youtoub for a long time. thank you.

when we return, let me finish with a big push toward the war in iran. these are -- we're talking about future war. you're watching "hardball," the place for politics. bonjour. comment ce va? bonjour. comment ce va? due cappuccini, per favore. domo... arigato? arigato united flies to more destinations than any other airline. namaste. over 5100 daily flights to nearly 60 countries. namaste. plus, over 230 us cities. dessert? pee-can pie. pecan? yeah. okay. in any language, that's...gateway to the world friendly.

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let me finish tonight with this big push toward war in iran. as anyone offers they deliver

day after day after day. does anyone doubt they want to destroy the talks between which to avoid that war? no. this is a life or death piece of war rivalry. tho those on the other side are pounding away on their favorite battlefield to undermine support for the talks before they have a chance at bearing frut. the worst feel is that a deal will be struck on its root to a bomb, a moment of success that would free the world of an unchallenged nuclear attack and developments of its economy and free to join the modern world of nations. anyone who doubts the fire power should read the lead calm in today's "wall street journal." not only that, the author sug jeszs that as a preliminary to

bombing iran, the united states should overthrow syria, since overthrowing iraq did so much good in slowing iran's nuclear program, this added attack on an arab country would do even more, they argue. first they got us to undertake the invasive overthrow of isle remark. now they want us to keep overthrowing arab governments and killing anyone who gets in the way to do what they did to asaad and helped do to momar. everything goes to hell in a hand bas ket and then we do more dirty work pushing us onto the next country, all the time ridding the hatred of the world. they have a friegt any knowledge frightening influence of the people. i opposed the iraq war from when i first began hearing whispers of it after 9/11.

now we're hearing how successful a war would be with syria. what makes you or me think that any of these armchair officers would ever be part of the a ark which you fighting. that's "hardball" for now. thanks for being with us. "all in" with chris hayes starts right now. >> tonight on "all in." breaking news from the "new york times" the president will go big on immigration. up to 5 million imgrants would with saved from deportation. republicans are promising an explosion on the hill. >> the president has been told over and over and over again and we're telling him again today, don't do this. >> plus, new details on the cascade of mistakes made by the secret service that allowed a man to scale the fence and run into the white house in september. then, the ferguson grand jury finally forensic expert.