at a certain point, it becomes ridiculous that you've got to fly to nevada. >> that is "all in" for this efing. stay tuned now for an msnbc leave from live from cur tturke richard engle. good night. >> welcome to the front lines on the war on isis. this is the syrian town of choba incomes i and this is all that remains of main street. this city has been holding out against an isis onslaught of thousands of mill tans 23r the last several weeks and it's been paying a heavy price. to understand, you need to know what's happening here. what's working, what's not in our live report that begins right now. >> good evening. i'm richard engle.

we've now left chobani and are coming to you from irfa. as a nation, we've been at war in this part of the world for over a decade. and it looks like we could be at war for another tenniers, maybe more. tonight, we're going to ask some tough questions about the war against isis. earlier this yore, in an off-the-cuff remark that drew heavy criticism, president obama said he had no vat jill for taking on isis. then he addressed the nation. >> my fellow americans, tonight i want to speak to you about what the united states will do with our friends and allies to degrade and destroy the terrorist group known as isil. >> the president promised this war would be different. he said there would be iraqi

groups on the ground in iraq and syria boots on the ground in syria. it sounds goods, but where are they? i've been reporting on this region for years and people i speak with tell me that this is one of the key problems with the u.s. strategy chlts it's disconnected from what's actually happening and seems, quite frankly, to be based on wishful thinkings. it imagines a middle east that digit exist. in less than six months, isis relar reerased the border and carved out an arable e area the size of mds m.d. washington calls this state a cancer. the cure, it says, is not o e to

send in one army, but to prop up five armies. in central iraq, rebuilding and retraining if army. in western iraq, it's paying sunni tribes. in north earn iraq, it's sending guns to the kurds. in southern syria, the regime is still in power. in a wider reason e reel joon, the u.s. is counting on support from muslim regions. >> but they have, at time, supported radical groups like isis. the u.s. has tried to sort out the divisions between sunnis and kurds in the past. it did not go well. now we're trying it again. on a larger scale and by remote control.

the president has said it will take years. he's been fairly cautious. vice president biden, not so much. >> we will follow them to the gates of held until they are brought to justice. hell is where they will reside. >> well, for the past several weeks, the gaets of hell have had a very specific address. the town in southeasterly ya just across the border here. it was almost too late, but khobani is still holding on as we found out when we visited the little city that stood up to isis. >> there are two things about k e chobani that made this small, curdish city in syria the focus of gnash atepgs. the first is its location. just across the border from you are turkey.

the world's press watched and reported as large parts of the city were reduced to smoking piles of rubble. the other is the heroic existence of the people in chobani. theirs is a remarkble tale of courage under fire. it's a tale that couldn't be told. in a slickly produced vird owe,they introduced a report presented by one of their hostages. >> the western media and i can't see anywhere here in the city of chobani, has e have been saying recently that the islamic states are on the retreat. >> isis had control of 90% of

the city and is now involved in mop up operations. we decided to risk a trip to see for ourselves. we crossed in no man's land and entered chobani. what we found was a city demolished but undefeated. >> meanwhile, on the free side of the city, kurdish men and women out gunned and out numbers are not just standing their ground, they're smiling. the 34-year-old is a field commander where much of the fighting is happening. sheets hung across intersections cloak from enemy snipers. you stay low and rum fast.

in chobani, you never enter a building through the front gaet or the front door. she walks us to the council room. >> she says there were about 40 isis fighters just in these rooms here. it's not that they're just fighting between buildings and across streets. but you can see the bull et holes. we watch them all the time and make sure to shoot them before they get too close. those print pls are in evidence everywhere. these are mope beryls of the people's protection units.

there are no formal rapgs, no organized use e units and everyone calls each other comrade. the kurds are a throwback. progressive idealists that may be descending into a region of medieval dark nns. >> just punching holes in walls so they can move from place-to-place without exposing thems to the open air and exposing themselves to the snipers. >> we run up an exposed stair case to the top floor of a residential building where the bedrooms have been turned in ee sniper's nest. now, she spends her days in this room watching and trying to find the enemy just across the street. born and raised in chobani, leaving was never an option. chobani is our home.

where will e else would we go? we will stay here and fight. we stand here as symbols of strength for all the women in the region. >> so you're fighting for chobani and women's rights in the middle east? >> yes, she says. i promptsed myself that where ever a minority is attacked, i will be there to fight for their rights. et's these grand ambitions that have made chobani such an obsession. most of the rez debilities of chobani and the surrounding villages, an estimated 200,000 people else scaped ahead of the i zerks i zerks advance leaving behind their possessions and refugees in nearby turkey. only the old, the sick and the

very stun e stubborn still live here. his family is among them and there are plenty of civilians among them. >> the house is cruded and he says mo one here is leaving. how could i leave my land and my people? those who remain here rely on a system of mule wall asis tans for everything. >> the few doctors left in town treat the wounded in a make shift clinic. even the weapons are a result of community organizing, like this homemade tank used to ferry fighters to the front lines.

isis on the other hand has state-of-the art weapons. the only reason chobani survived this long is because the u.s. is conducting daily air strikes and helped reinforcements. driving them out of an urban area is a challenge. but did it need to be this difficult? watched horrified as isis fighters closed in on the city. the mill tantds made no effort to hide their movements. they were marching in without a care in the world. >> they see isis fighters in their villages. and if the americans really want to bomb isis, they're not hard to find.

>> what's happening in chobani is also important to remember. you have to step back and understand the strategic object ifr. >> the u.s. was eventually embarrassed in coming to the rescue. the city has now become a key battleground. a test case in the american strategy in the fight against isis. >> we are very grateful to america for the help it has sent us, he says. but it came very late. and we are going to need a lot more of it. for those of us who hold the line, all of this is just a distant echo.

>> she knows that chobani can only be remembered one of two ways. as the siet of a horrible masacre, which is why everyone in chobani, the old and the young, women and men, carries a special bull et around. they call it the bullet of honor and are going to use it to take their own life. better that than falling into the hands of isis. >> e. >> a lot more to come here tonight. including an exclusive interview with westerners who have traveled to syria to join radical islamic groups. we' e eel talk with the commander who is in charge of training the iraqi army. i'll ask him why that army collapsed. bla

. >> this is the last point to cross over the border. it hasn't been the ease yegs process so far. there's still esis tigers. this is the last time we're going to be inside turkey until we get out and hopefully, everything will be fin

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. even though we're inside, we should still be careful. just changing rooms, you can expose yourself to being shot.

>> the rise of isis was stunning. a group that few people ever heard of now e now has an estimated 31,000 fighters. that's a real rmy. but the truth e truth is this is not an e a new enemy. so who are these mill tants and where did they come from? they consider themselves warriors for islam. rebuilders of the califaet, an islamic empire that spanned the middle east and beyond for centuries. they fly the anyone e ancient battle of shiad. violators are punished in public squares by flogging, crucifixion and beheading.

women accused of adultery are stoned-to death. they're blood thirsty and effective. they are applying the lessons they learned fighting u.s. troops in iraq. >> for 345 renals, i comes down to this. hunting for insur jegence not o tanks but on foot. >> we referred to them as insurgence. the name they used is al-qaida in iraq. american troops kill ee eed an detained thousands of them.

american officials would later rue the day which was now in full swing. >> a short time from now, we will hear the president who will speak to the nation and unvail his new strategy. president bush in 200 e7 sending an additional force of 30,000 americans which brought the traditional eventually managing to regain control of iraq. the sunni insurgency appeared to have been crushed. >> major news in iraq today. >> a month later, in a statement the group announced it had a new

name. the islamic state in iraq. and a new leader. they called abu bacher. the low-ranking insurgent arrested in 2005 was now a leader. american priorities had, by now, changed. the u.s. was ready to walk away. and in december, 2011, it did. some of the soldiers have been waving. others taking pictures to remember this moment. the moment the iraq war ended. >> the president of the united states. >> president obama assured americans that iraq could make it on its own. >> we're leaving behind a sovereign, stable and self-reliant iraq with a representative government elected by its people. >> those world may yet haunt us all. because for all the sacrifices the u.s. made, nearly 4500 troops killed and around $2

trillion spent, iraq isn't sovereign, stable or self reliant. but back to 2011, something else was going on besides the u.s. pullout from iraq which would change the middle east forever. the arab spring erupted and started to fall and in the chaos, abu saw an opportunity to turn the islamic state far more violent. what we call isis. >> millions gathered in city squares to demand the overthrow of dictatorships. in libya, the u.s. went even further. bombing ghadfi out of power.

the administration, perhaps without meaning to, was charting new policy in the middle east and the syrians took notice. they, too, marched to the four decades of the asaad family's dictatorship and expected washington to back them. instead, demonstrators were massacred by their government and the u.s. did nothing. these gave way to a horrible zichl war. the syrian government would go onto kill more than 200 thousand of its own people and drive mill i don't means from their homes. the u.s. pledge e pledged a m moderate national syrian group. we spoke to rebel fighters at the time. they said if the ugs won't come to their aide e aid, they will take help from others including radical islamists. that was all the opening baghdad

needed. raised their black banners and chaked their name again to match their expanded ichb hi bigs, becoming the his e islamic state in iraq and syria. isis. declared himself successor to the prophet muhammad and ruler of the islamic stay e state. >> obey me and i will obey allah in ruling you. many americans were startled. but make no mistake, this is an old enemy. and it's gradual reemergence from the embers of al-qaida in iraq to a fire that's engulfed the entire region happened right before our eyes. it should have surprised no one in washington.

>> to understand why the rise of isis did catch the administration off guard, we have to, once again, look at the legacy of the iraq war. the u.s. spent billions of dollars training and equipping the iraqi army for the specific mission of combatting extremists. yet, as soon as isis showed up, the iraqi army led away to pick up. for years, pill tear leaders and politicians from both parties told us the iraqi army was ready. here's what lieutenant general mike babaro who was then in charge told me in 2010. i see a force that's capable. they're absolutely liable. they're fearless and have taken tremendous losses alongside with us. >> i caught up with lieutenant general barbaro again this week in north earn iraq. >> you know,rich, until this

last summer, i always believed the forces were stronger than the scentrifugal forces pulling it apart. >> i would say the u.s. military, myself included, we were wrong by not making a stronger case and insisting that we needed to stay in some numbers to continue to train, advise and develop this unfinished force. >> you think they should have kept a residual force in. >> absolutely. we all believe that. >> before u.s. troops left iraq, there was a debate in washington about leaving behind residual force on american trainers to continue working with the iraqe army. but the administration and iraq government couldn't agree on terms. so the white house dded to pull out all of the troops. >> why didn't the military convey that message more strongly to washington, that the

army wasn't ready. >> we knew it. i know the pentagon knew it. but i think it was a stated policy. that this was the e a bad war. and we were going to be out of here by degs, 2011. >> and when the american troops left, the iraqi army detear e tier rated clearly. the military's weakness was e exposed last summer. the mill tantds were planning a prison break. soldiers stripped off their uniforms and left their weapons behind. isis ebded up with a city and an arsenal. >> you have 1500 isis fighters arrive and two full iraqi army divisions run away. a scale of 15-to-1. what kind of army cuts and runs when it has 1u67 an overwhelming majority in terms of numbers and fire power. >> well, you have an army that hadn't trained, that was

corrupt, that was led by political cronies and military commanders. >> okay. >> back in 2010, as we were flying out to the training area, general barbaro expressed confidence that the iraqis were ready to take on their enemies. >> do you think the iraq security forces will be able to maintain security and hold this together as american troops draw down? >> yes, i do. i'm confident that they are ready. >> do you think the iraqi security forces could handle a major crisis? >> not just the day-to-day events, but something dramatically serious were to o did you recall, could they contain the situation? >> i think so. >> generalists were often criticized for being to pessimistic about iraq. do you think military commanders were too of the mystic? >> no, i think we were real issuesic. we said the iraqi security forces were an unfinished product.

>> you told us things were dpraet e great. >> no, e didn't say sa e that. we saw iraqi tank crews training individually. and we said they've never maneuvered together. i think we were pretty realistic about it. the u.s. spent about $25 billion on the iraqi security forces. is that money well spent? >> in hind site, no. how can you argue today it was money well spent. >> this must be one of the biggest failures of the iraq war. the mission was to create a force that kuld hold the country together. it didn't work. >> it hasn't worked. but the conditions, i mean, there's different conditions on the ground. isis gets a vote. our sayings is the military get also vote. no one predicted isis. no one saw i coming. >> and that really is the point. noo one saw isis coming. with that in mind, we have the

former cia director general michael hayden coming um. we'll also have a report on westerners. stay with us with a lot more to come. 6 . >> he's sheeing me that through this little peephole, you can see the isis position. and they're only a maximum 200 yards away. you can understand by being here the proximity of the two side against each other. live in the same communities that we serve. people here know that our operations have an impact locally. we're using more natural gas vehicles than ever before. the trucks are reliable, that's good for business. but they also reduce emissions, and that's good for everyone. it makes me feel very good about the future of our company. ♪

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welcome back. it's very early in the morning here in turkey. over the last six months, there have been reports of westerners joining isis. but e but why? just ahead, the story of a man who left australia where he was born and raised to become an islam isz fighter. he says the intervention is pushing men like him to sympathize with the islamic state. it's a unique perspective and one you don't want to miss. more live from turkey in just a moment. >> so this is isis on the isis frequency calling for troops to come to their position. turn the trips you have to take,

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turkey. one reason is us. westerners. europeans, australiaens, citizens leaving their homes behind to fight alongside ix sis. there are ranges from dozens to the hundreds. merps from all over the country, from diverse backgrounds, most of them young. there's the 33-year-old man who left san diego and died in syria. there's the 19-year-old from chicago, arested at o'hare on his way to syria. actually, he is planning to travel through this town, orfa, on his way there. the denver teenagers all girls send e sent back to their parents. and isis is, by no means t e, the only terrorist group recruiting sit zeps from western nations. but the question remains why? what mote e note vats these people.

>> isis, how is it still growing and threatening the west? the unprecedented propaganda machine. >> they chop off the heads of the americans, chop off the head of the friends e french. chop off the heads of whoever you may bring. >> but why are young westerners joining the ranks of isis? >> the people of america. >> the fighting has just begun. >> according to counter terrorism, there are now several thousand among an estimated 15,000. for more corners of the globe. and by an intoxicating brand. the utopian vision of an islamic claifant ruling the world. isis is not the only islamist group in syria.

nbc news has been given a unique, on-the-ground look and a level aligned with isis. death has become a way of life here. a desperate atempblt to save a injured child after a bombing. >> syrian president's work, aparticipantly. the injured girl's brothers and sisters hold hands. the man in the mask is a british jihadi. he says seeing children hurt inspires him to fight. this australian is a medic. >> he's upset because every day he sees little kids and you see women and children getting shredded off their faces from the bombs.

anybody is going to get upset and have some sort of hatred toward anybody that is associated with this. >> and these fighters are now questioning america's involvement. it's bombing campaign in syria. they ask why the west hasn't tar getted a group in a regime. instead, om take action after westerners were executed. >> one of the differences which killings 15 kids compared to, you know, a man dying, getting cut in the throat. >> the west intervention is pushing them to actually sympathize with isis. >> in a london basement in september, i met con ro verse yal islamic preacher.

childry has been out spoken and even defends the recent beheadings. >> i think they should be terrorized and horrified by what is taking place. >> not long after that interview, he was arrested and released unremorsemeful predictg that if leader of isis will inspire attacks on the west. >> this is squiet a situation. >> what does that mean? >> well, that means, you know, potentially, if you ask people here, and they're affiliated to him, that they can respond to that. >> in the yiet? >> in the yiet in britain and france and europe. it's not a threat. it's an understanding of reality. >> this reality came home to canada last month when a jihadist gunman launched a pod e bold attack on parliament. he had been following him on twitter.

loan atta lone attackers had the west on edge, fearing that terror, with just one person, can cause. back in syria, he stays focused on fighting asaad. its foreign fighters have no plans in the west when not in the bad e battlefield. these men live strangely normal lives&do everything together. this dutchman says from day one, he's been treated like a brother. >> i'm living better than i was living in new york. >> they play soccer together. and are prepared to die together. >> this is a world where war is ordinary and isis offers an attractive cause. in a world where some are united against common enemies. the united states of america.

>> joining us now live from london, what are western officials doing to deal with the threat of foreign officials returning home? >> pretty much anything they can think of, richard. as you know, when you fly from here in london, the region where you are, for example, there are always security officials at the airport trying to vet people. the extraordinary thing about the video in my report there, filmed, by the way, by an impressive independent journalist is the insiekt it gives into the thinking of young islamists despite saying that's not the case. an understanding that mind set is the task of western intelligence.

but so many are heading to syria. >> the u.s. is intervening not gist against isis. it's intervening in a civil war and an incredibly complex recruiting.

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. welcome back to turkey. there have already been nearly

900 u.s. air strikes in iraq and syria. but, so far, they are not stopping isis. in fact, the opposite may be true. da data obtained from tank, the janes terrorism an insurgency center shows that isis attacks are on the rise. in june, there were 104 of them in iraq. in august, the number climbed to 171. attacks dropped off but then returned to 141 in october. u.s. military officials insist the air campaign is working. this data suggests otherwise. in fact, just this week, the militants announced that they plan to introduce their own currency. they call it the islamic dinar and say it's backed by the group ear gold and silver reserves. who knows how deep their pockets are, but minting coins is a sign the group thinks it's here to say. and take a look at this -- it's a video that appears to show a large crowd gathered in an isis

stronghold in syria. the man speak on the microphone is praising alaa and says the crowd is about to seedy vine justice, punishment enacted on three terrified soldiers from the syrian army. the isis ringleader whips the crowd into a frenzy, saying the soldiers are guilty of murder and rape. it's impossible for us to know if any of this is true. then he calls on the people, the citizens to beat the soldiers to death with the heels of their shoes. the video is hard to watch, but i think what's interesting is isis put it out. in their twisted world view, this is just and perfectly acceptable. this is the kind of imagery that makes many americans want to bomb isis. but doing that comes with unintended consequences. look at another video of a convoy in syria. it's huge. some of the vehicles are armored, and they're all out in the open. and this is not isis, but another group directly linked to al qaeda. we're not talking much about al qaeda these day, but they're in

syria and they're actually getting stronger. by bombing isis, the u.s. is making it easier for other groups to spread their wings. joining me now is general michael hayden, former head of both the nsa and the cia. general hayden, thank you very much for joining mess. >> thanks, richard. >> you heard these numbers that seem to suggest so far air strikes haven't reduced the number of isis attacks. how would you explain that? >> well, richard, first of all, i would say they've had an effect. they've punished isis, they made them go to different kind of tactics, techniques and procedures. it made it more difficult for them to communicate. it's hard to prove a negative here, but i would suspect the battlefield situation would be worse had we not been conducting these attacks. that said, doing this through air power alone, without corresponding ground forces is next to impossible task. >> how would you assess the

overall strategy. that is the effective strategy, to fwom them and try to put together a coalition of forces on the ground. how would you assess the success of that strategy? >> well, the first thing we wanted to do, richard, to my eye was to stabilize the situation in iraq and broadly we've done that. we've straightened out the line of confrontation, got critical elements of the infrastructure on our side of the line like the muslim dam and the oil refinery. that's where we are so far in iraq, stability, not counterattack, not resurgence on the part of the iraqi government. with regard to syria, the most can be said right now is that we're punishing them and the best, i think, we can get out of the current circumstance is merely to contain them. >> we need forces in the forward

edge of the battle area, richard. you can't bring in close air support, defined as air power integrated with the fire and movement op friendly ground forces. you can't do that remeetly. you've got to have our folks embedded forward for advice, for command and control, to stiffen resolve, and finally to synchronize air power in its most useful form. >> so you want to put troops back in iraq and syria? >> we need reliable ground forces in both countries if we are to be effective. i would start with iraq. and richard, no one with my experience, and there are a lot of folk with my experience here, no one is calling for american maneuver brigades back into the iraqi desert. but you can't do this from brigade headquarters in the north in the chain of command. you' got to be integrated with the forces that are actually in contact.

>> so how many people are we talking about. are you talking about thousands of american troops who are embedded with frontline positions in iraq and syria? are you talking dozens? what kind of scale are you talking about. >> you would the forces that are there, training, intelligence, surveillance, reconnaissance, lo gistings and so on, i think we're talking 5,000 to 10,000 total. and look, the president just doubled down. we're moving to 3,000 already. >> we're moving back into this. and who knows if this will go even further. general hayden, thanks very much. >> thanks, richard. >> the obama administration says it's taking an approach. it says there are limits to what can be achieved by military force and the people of the region need to step up and overcome the challenges that they face. as one person put them, we had people in iraq.

we've got more from turkey right after this. get to the terminal across town. are all the green lights you? no. it's called grid iq. the 4:51 is leaving at 4:51. ♪ they cut the power. it'll fix itself. power's back on. quick thinking traffic lights and self correcting power grids make the world predictable. thrillingly predictable.

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these could be signs of serious side effects. are you down with crestor? ask your doctor about crestor. nothinchocolate chip cookie.rite nestlé toll house made with real butter, eggs, and brown sugar for that scratch made taste. well now you can bake as few or as many as you please. frozen and ready to bake, new nestlé toll house frozen cookie dough is made with wholesome ingredients like the original recipe and lets you bake just the batch you want. so bake the world better, and turn any moment into a warm cookie moment. find them in the frozen aisle. nestlé. good food good life.

we've talked a lot tonight about the shortcomings of the u.s. strategy against isis, how it's unclear and inconsistent, that it ignores reality. but the truth is, there are no easy answers here. the president and our country face a difficult choice between two very bad options. one option is to fight isis head on, which means a war, a big war with american troops fighting and dying for years to come. the second option is to walk away from the region, increased checkpoints at airports, moderate extremists and basically let the middle east sort out its own problems. but then isis would continue to have a safe haven. the president, instead, chose a middle ground. a strategy that tries to manage

this war from afar with a few american advisors. but here's the thing. this so-called middle ground could become a slippery slope. because both the number of advisers and the scale of american involvement are likely to grow. they already have. and data show so far it's not working. usually half measures don't end wars, they just keep them going. thank you very much for joining us and good night. due to mature subject matter, viewer discretion is advised. america's prisons, dangerous, often deadly. there are 2 million people doing time. every day is a battle to survive and to maintain order. >> down on your feet! down! >> located in the deep south, holman correctional facility, where most are serving life