are people coming out in preparation for what that might be? >> reporter: toure, in the past two or three minutes we've seen preparations around the courthouse. in fact, i was just walking down the block. i can tell you that right across the street at the courthouse, they're covering up the world war i memorial. we've seen the barricades go up here over the past five, ten minutes or so. i can also tell you -- i'm just getting word that a decision has been made. we've been reporting that an announce -- we would be getting this announcement in a couple of hours. i can tell you that a decision has been reached. and we are going to be getting record that decision during the course of the announcement, just getting that just a few moments ago. toure, i can also tell you governor nixon is in st. louis, meeting with members of clergy at 4:00. i spent some time at well spring church yesterday. the minister there is set to be -- he's going to be part of

this clergy meeting. one of the interesting things he said to me yesterday, this was a sentiment also echoed by captain ron johnson as well, this idea that we are going to see these widespread potentially violent clashes once again. he disputes that. he does not think we're going to see a remake of what we saw 110 days ago or so. for two reasons. one, primarily, law enforcement has spent a great deal of time pounding the pavement in these communities, in these neighborhoods, talking to people who -- not just folks who live in the neighborhoods, but the protest organizers as well. as you know, they've sort of reached a consensus on a handful of these rules of engagement. that's one reason. the second reason is, he thinks that that the protests themselves have been organized and structured in such a fash n fashifashio fashion -- they've had -- they've had training in peaceful protesting. he thinks that because of that

as well, you're going to see largely peaceful protests tonight. captain johnson also said, no matter what the outcome is, whether the grand jury decides to indict or whether the grand jury decides not to indict, he still thinks we're probably going to see some folks on the streets this evening. again, in just the last two or three minutes or so, i can tell you that we are going to get an announcement regarding a decision in just a few hours. 2:00, by the way n st. louis, there have been some folks that have said over the past hour or so, some folks who said to me, it would be nice if the decision itself were announcement during daylight hours. >> a lot has gone into preparing for this decision being announced later today, craig. governor jay nixon announced a state of emergency about a week ago. schools are out. the white house continues to

emphasize the need for peaceful protests. you're on the ground there. does it feel like everything has been done to prepare for this moment? >> reporter: yeah, it does. it does. some people will tell you, abby, that perhaps the preparations have gone too far. the phrase self-fulfilling prophecy has been used more than half a dozen occasions, during the course of interviews with people. there have been those who said, if you call out the national guard a week before an announcement is made f you've got businesses boarding up in anticipation of violence, then what message does that then send? a lot of folks who have been asking those questions over the past week or so. something else interesting to note, we found this out yesterday from a court official, you know, for a long time there had been reports that the prosecutor, if officer wilson is not indicted, the prosecutor would go to a judge and say, okay, let's make virtually all of the evidence available for public consumption.

a lot of folks were under the impression that was a done deal. yesterday we found out that that is, in fact, not a done deal. there is a chance the evidence, the visual ed, audio evidence, everything this grand jury heard, saw and read, that that information will not be made public. that's something we found out yesterday. a lot of folks obviously asking questions about that, wanting to know why. >> craig melvin, stay with us there. it would take nine out of 12 jurors to indict, which would then lead to a full trial. any indictment would not be a determination of guilt. grand jurors can also find there's not enough evidence to find wilson probably committed any crime. for perspective on this legal process and security measures being taken, we go to eugene o'donnell, a former nypd police officer and assistant district attorney, lisa green, her forthcoming book is titled "on your case." welcome to you both. lisa, walk us through just legally what would be the next

steps. the grand jury has been deliberating. they have come to a decision. we don't know that yet. after the announcement, what happens next? >> well, for now, still a lot of secrecy. we'll find out apparently what the decision is, whether they'll vote a true bill or no true bill, whether the case will go forward or stop. the prosecutor has said he will not convene another grand jury absent strong new evidence. remember, we're dealing with a black box. and a grand jury procedure historically in this case is quite secret. so, there won't be an immediate release of evidence. the prosecutor has said he would like to release the transcripts. that may happen. to be honest, news organizations probably should seek the release of those transcripts, as they've done in other cases, including st. louis. for now, we know very little. we won't know which jurors voted the way they did. we don't even get to know how many jurors voted in one direction or another. we just know yes or no, will the

case go forward. >> eugene, when you look at this kind of case with the st. louis police officer, police officers have great authorized leeway in how they use force. we know here from what the prosecutor's office has released, that this is a set of grand jurors who have seen the law in the state on police force and some of the jury instructions typically derived from that law which says you can use deadly force if a suspect is either of great bodily harm, injury or threat to you, a threat of death or in the case of missouri law as well, a controversial statute that says also when they're fleeing you might be able to use deadly force. can you walk us through how that should be properly applied in the grand jury context, which we've been stressing is not a full trial? >> it really depends on if this is viewed as one transaction or separate transactions. was there some interaction in the car followed by something outside of the car? it is possible the officer was deemed initially justified and

then went beyond his mandate of self-defense outside the car. so, it very much depends on the nuance of that. regardless of whether ultimately the officer is charged or not, the system is clearly indicted here. it clearly needs to be put on trial. the entire system. not just in ferguson but beyond. the issue of trust. the issue that people feel alienated. policing is so disconnected, that verdict is in already. but the actual issue of whether this officer should be charged, especially, unless he acted with malice, the prosecution is it's been hard, coast to coast, to formally charge a police officer and also because the obstacle is, if he is indicted, have you to prove the case beyond a reasonable doubt which means disproving his defense beyond a reasonable doubt. that's a very high standard. >> lisa, one of the lower

potential charges facing the officer is involuntary manslaughter causing death without intending to. how does that apply to this case? >> one way it might apply -- again, we're all talking theory. we'll know more when the grand jury comes back. if the grand jury topper find probable cause of a higher charge, a murder 2 charge, and the police officer says, in my defense, i thought i was in imminent harm. the jury could decide it was an imperfect defense and bring that charge down to an involuntary manslaughter charge. that's another root to a true bill. again, all speculation at this point. >> lisa, walk us through some of the aspects of this grand jury process that have seen different from other grand jury processes. one thing people point out is the fact the prosecutor didn't recommend any charges. another thing that is potentially different here is the length of the process.

>> in a fun yeah way this grand jury reverts back to the historical purpose of a grand jury, which was to happen a community of citizens make a decision about whether to prosecute or not. get the state outer of the way and almost have a crowd source decision. in other ways because the grand jury received all of this evidence and been sort of allowed to fend for itself, it reminds me of that podcast serial, every week, it's a lot like serial. >> love that. >> the radio producer is giving us a ton of evidence. and she often says, look, this is not for me to decide. i actually haven't made a decision. you go ahead. so, a rough analogy here where by all accounts these grand jurors have been given every scrap of evidence. again, the prosecutor said, i want to make all of this transparent. i think the real question is which way does that lean, more likelihood of a true bill or less likely? >> how will they make that public announcement? is it a released statement?

>> i expect a released statement with very little information. again, raising all these questions, no matter which way it goes, about how they got where they got. we'll simply know if the case proceeds or if it doesn't. >> eugene, build on that, how do you evaluate if we have a prosecutor speaking later today and announcing potentially some kind of decision, what should the prosecutor do, regardless of the decision to try to, as you were referencing, rebuild any trust here and instill confidence in a community that doesn't want any further incidence? >> the problem i have with this is an information dump is not going to be helpful. that's not going to tell us why ultimately the grand jury made the decision. we won't have any real insight into that, which is why i thought prosecutors should own this more. there's an elected prosecutor there. the prosecutor's office should step up. we had a controversial shooting in new york where the manhattan d.a. stepped up and released a very voluminous report that married up the law with the facts and you could read that. it took a very controversial shooting and really, i think,

reassured people that even if they didn't agree with the ultimate outcome, it was a fair outcome -- >> you're distinguishing between the idea of simply asking the judge to release these documents, which has been talked about, and a different approach where you would actually release something more cohesive? >> right. we want to know the information that went into the grand jury. we won't know necessarily the emphasis that was placed on it. we won't know how the officer came across in the grand jury. there's a whole bunch of intangibles we won't know why the grand jury specifically decided to do what it did. it would seem we're going to get a bunch of piecemeal information, some forensic information, if it does come out, conflicting witness accounts, but unless somebody gets a chance to talk to the grand jury, it will be hard to deduce why they came to the conclusions they did. >> eugene, i want to build on that and also on something craig said earlier when he talked about the notion of a self-fulfilling prophecy. when you have the national guard

called out a week early, when you have the governor coming out a week early and, you know, begging for calm, you know, when you have businesses boarding up their stores. if a verdict -- if a decision comes out and it's not an indictment and people on the streets, upset, varying levels of upset, are you concerned about what the powers to be have done to put the officers that would have to police that situation in danger in a little more of a vulnerable situation because of how this has been handled? >> yeah. i guess the governor can't win either way. i was kerpd there was a law and order approach to the conversation he was having versus a social justice approach. at root of these issues are social justice issues that aren't going to go away and they're not limited to ferguson, not limited to missouri. this framing of the issue of violence and nonviolence to me is not necessarily that helpful. having said that, i think the story the last time it was the police sort of overreacting. they have to be concerned with the notion of police

underreacting. the media cycle will move off this case sooner or later. if any reconstruction happens, any death in ferguson, that town will be forced to live with that. getting that balance right is very hard to do. you're never more than a day away from getting it wrong when it's prolonged. it sounds like they've got a lot more notice and a lot more leadership on the ground. and, you know, we'll keep our fingers crossed. i don't think any police department takes victory laps until they're all finished. >> eugene, lisa, stay with us as we await the announcement of the grand jury's decision. let's head to ferguson where msnbc's amanda sukuma has the latest reaction there. what are you seeing? >> reporter: tonight we should expect a very different scenario than we wha we saw in august. there should be at least three different locations where protests could potentially crop up, not only in ferguson in front of the police department, but also in clayton where the st. louis county prosecutor's office is, where they will be

making the announcement. and also in the shaw neighborhood, which is where yet another young black teen was shot dead by a police officer earlier this year. now because this is such a geographically diverse area, it will be interesting to see how police response will turn out tonight. barricades, for example, that are typically used to contain protests could effectively block families in, block in residents, in this very residential area. as far as what we've seen so far, a lot of the police response has been holding back, watching the protesters, letting them do -- >> amanda, just stay with us here. amanda, stay with us. we're going to craig melvin who has new reporting. joining us from clayton. what can you tell us? >> reporter: the official announcement that a decision has been made -- i can tell you that, again, the jury itself -- the grand jury has reached a decision. we're expecting that decision in a couple of hours. just a couple of hours here.

so it looks -- -- i'm trying to do quick math between central and eastern time. it's sad. we should get it before the sun goes down in st. louis. >> sounds like for our east coast viewers it would be between 5:00 and 6:00. craig, you're on the ground. you've seen some preparations, at least outside the courthouse. what is the sort of mood there, apart from obviously the assembled media? and what if any light can you shed on what we're seeing here, which is an apparent approach at this time that would suggest an announcement that officially the decision's been made, followed on later, potentially at night, by the actual content of that decision? >> reporter: right. the mood on the ground, i would best describe it as anxious. that's everyone. that is just folks who have never been to a protest here, protesters, law enforcement. everyone's anxious. we spent some time in two

different churches yesterday morning. everyone we talked to, regardless of race, age, i said the same thing, everyone wants this to be over. everyone wants the decision to be shared. so this xhungtd can go ahead and start the process of rebuilding itself and healing and doing all those things, trying to return to some semblance of normalcy. i would describe it as anxious. i would say, though, that just in this area, again, we're in clayton. clayton is the county seat here. ferguson is 15, 20 minutes away. those protests you saw last time up and down west florissant, that's about 20 minutes from where we are right now. the protests we've been seeing, by and large, have been protests outside the ferguson police department. businesses there board up. i would say between 50% and 60% of the businesses in that part of ferguson are boarded up. open but boarded up,

nonetheless. here in clayton, you don't see as many businesses. there have been a number of businesses that shut down today in anticipation of a business but not as many businesses boarded up. it is going to be interesting to see the shape of tonight's protest because this is something that we've observed over the past five or six days. you know, last time, for folks who were here, who covered the protest in the wake of the shooting, i mean, you saw a lot of these pop-up protests. you know, you'd see one protest, you know, at 60, 70 people. then 30 or 40 minutes another, another protest would pop up a mile away. this time around, apparently the protests themselves are going to be very organized. that's what we're hearing. they're going to be very organized. and it's also not to be lost, i know we've been talking about this, but there have been a number of conversationings. i was told by captain johnson a couple days ago, there have been at least a half dozen conversations between the

largest protest organizers and law enforcement. so, it will be interesting to see what that might mean for protests. it's also interesting to note that captain johnson would not rule out, once again using tear gas if the situation warranted or rubber bullets as well. that was one of the rules of engagement the two sides could not agree upon. >> craig, i want you to stick with us. let's go back to amanda in ferguson. as craig was saying, they'll announce their decision in the next few hours. are you there on the ground. is there any movement as of right now? >> reporter: as of right now it's still quiet, but people are still at work. we should expect things to pick up maybe later this afternoon/early evening. nearby jennings, the school district did close down for today and tomorrow preemptively because they don't have any bus system. they were worried children would be walking to and from school and potentially in harm's way. now, not only is this a hardship

on families, kind of scrambling for child care, but also leads to the potential we have an entire high school of young kids, young teenagers who are not in school right now. many of whom who have families that are working and that means they might not be caught up in school, might join any kind of protest. as of right now, it's still quiet on the streets. >> amanda, craig, lisa, eugene, thank you very much. much more on the legal aspect of this breaking news next as "the cycle" rolls on. revolutionizing an industry can be a tough act to follow, but at xerox we've embraced a new role. working behind the scenes to provide companies with services... like helping hr departments manage benefits and pensions for over 11 million employees. reducing document costs by up to 30%... and processing $421 billion dollars

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they're praying for an indictment and they're tlig to put the faith in the justice system that it will work for their child, too, equally, like it will work for everybody else. and if there is no indictment, the federal government is investigating the matter, so they will want to know if there are any federal charges. if not, then the only remedy they will have left is a legal/civil matter. so, we are going to explore

every possible legal avenue to get them some sense of justice. they greatly don't want to have their child's death be in vein. they want people to help them stand up, to change the system, not just to make noise, but to make a difference, to make a change, so this doesn't happen to anybody else' child. >> we're back with more breaking news here this afternoon on the ferguson, missouri, case. we expect a grand jury decision today. let's go right now to nbc news legal analyst, lisa bloom, and matt miller, former top aide to attorney general eric holder. good day to you both. matt, let's pick up on the point there that the brown family attorney was just raising in that interview with msnbc's joy reid, that even as we await this grand jury decision, the justice department has been conducting its own civil rights investigation, its own review of police conduct there, in addition to, of course, the prospect of a civil suit, which is a private party suit that has a lower standard of proof. your thoughts on all of those different cases and how they intersect and what your old

boss, attorney general eric holder, has been doing on this this week here. >> i think when you start with what the justice department is doing, in their two cases, you're likely to see different outcomes. first in their investigation into the shooting itself and whether that's a civil rights crime. i think you're very unlikely to see a case brought there. it's always been -- >> you don't -- you don't think, just to make that clear, you don't think based on what is known publicly, that the doj, civil rights investigation goes very far here? >> that's right. it's always been a very heavy standard. you have to show intent, that the officer knew he was committing more force than was called for or that he was intentionally violating michael brown's civil rights. that's a very tough legal standard.

whether the department's hiring practices have been appropriate. whether they're disproportionately arresting or stopping or using force against african-americans. and i think what you'll see eventually a package of reforms. maybe not in the next few months, but certainly in the coming months, significant reforms to that police department. >> lisa bloom, i remember sitting with you and talking through the trayvon martin trial in microscopic piece by piece. i know how you, as a long-time practicing attorney, can come up with this evidence and come up your own theory of the case. i'm sure you've gone through the evidence publicly available in this michael brown situation. what is your theory of this case right now? >> well, you know what's so sickening to me is that there are six eyewitnesss who saw this

incident with their own two eyes. i mean, that alone is rare, to have that many eyewitnesss. those six eyewitnesss who are african-american and white say that mike brown was shot with his hands up in the universal signal of surrender at the time the fatal shots hit his head and the top of his head. now, darren wilson is responsible for every bullet he fired. clearly there was an althouercan at the car, and there are different stories about what happened there. it seems there is a coalesce ens of eyewitness testimony that after that, mike brown is running away from the officer. tiffany mitchell says his hands were up at the time. crenshaw says his hands were up at time he was shot. so do a number of other people. that's what i can't get past. when i talk about the trayvon martin case and what an injustice that was, this also

seems worse because we're only deciding if there is probable cause to charge darren wilson. we're only talking about the absolute lowest legal threshold we have in our system. and there have been months and months of debate and agonizing of the grand jury about whether there's just probable cause. it seems we're taking a giant step backwards. >> we don't know whether or not there will be charges here and we don't know all the pieces of evidence that were presented to the grand jury. i want to go back to you on attorney general holder's involvement here. we know we released a video with calm. also there were reports that he was displeased with governor jay nixon's governor to declare a state of emergency and activate the national guard. how directly involved has attorney general holder been here and how much in communication has he been with local officials on the ground in preparation for this decision?

>> the way local officials have handled the crowd and making mistakes because they haven't consulted with the justice department and even when they consulted with the justice department and flat out not taken their advice. hopefully, if this verdict does come down in a way that upsets the community and we see people take to the streets, hopefully, of course, they're nonviolent. but if the situation is enflamed, let's hope that the department of justice officials who have been on the ground since the summer, the people from the community relation service, let's hope that the state officials are coordinating with them, they're listening to them because there are a number of best practices they can bring to bear that hopefully will calm the situation. we certainly don't need to see another repeat of what happened in the summer where the police presence actually made things much worse when they should have made it better. >> i want both of you to please stay with us.

i want to bring back eugene o'neill and lisa green here. lisa, we talked about civil -- the civil option here. we just played benjamin crump, the michael brown attorney talking about that. you heard lisa talk about the probable cause standard. what is the civil standard in wrongful death suit and why is that important regardless of what happens today or tomorrow? lisa first. >> it opens the opportunity for the family to seek justice, to keep the case around, remind people of the injustice that they surely will feel will be the case if the grand jury votes a no true bill. the standard is much lower. you're going before the jury to find civil recourse and that can include money damages, query whether that's possible here.

you're impanelling a group of jurors who -- >> you're pointing out -- toure, this is the interplay. you're pointing out while the fact a no true bill or nonindictment doesn't determine that outcome, you're going to get jurors who then say, i heard this was not -- >> he was cleared. >> indeed. eugene, we have unconfirmed reports from other news organization that officer darren wilson has been in negotiations to resign if he is not indicted. do you think, sir, it is fair this man may lose his job in the event he is not indicted here? >> i think you don't have a right to a job. you don't have a constitutional right to a job. and under the circumstances, when somebody's killed, i think that has to be looked at very carefully. and even if it's technically legally justified, is it in the best interest of him and the town that he continue in the employment. so, there could very well be a good ending in that. and then by him not voluntarily

leaving, just to circle back on the civil case, it's important to say also in a civil case, officers have what's called qualified immunity. they also have a tremendous amount of leeway on the civil case, not just on the civil case. which is so important when you want to talk about police reform and the large footprint the police have. we shouldn't ignore these realities. when you send the police out there, they have a tremendous amount of protection against criminal and even civil liability and culpability. >> i wanted to get your thoughts, eugene, on the dialogue that has unfolded between the police and the community in the wake of the events in august. there's a list of rules of engagement, some of which have been agreed upon between protesters and the unified command. is that important? is that going to be helpful in helping keep the calm in the wake of this decision? >> yeah, i think the most important thing is humanizing both sides versus dehumanizing both sides, which is why the whole militaristic approach is not something you want to choose

initially. the more people can be face to face, the more people can hear each other out, the less likely it is that both sides will get so antagonistic and so demonizing. i guess the great concern that's always been there is the people in the town may have one design and people that come from out of town may have another. you'll find that where people can establish a rapport, there's this face-to-face dialogue, that's the most effective tool. all things being equal. >> i want to bring lisa bloom back in the conversation. we had craig on a moment ago and he said there are some concerns that they've maybe prepared even too much for this decision. you have the governor calling for a state of emergency. you have national guard troops deployed there on the ground. what is your take on that? do you feel like that has caused too much concern at this -- too early on even? >> i think this community has been disrespected from the very beginning. they were disrespected when mike brown's body lay in the street for more than four hours. his blood literally running down the sidewalk. they were disrespected when darren wilson's name wasn't

released, instead they released a video purporting to be of mike brown. the police officer saying this was relevant to darren wilson's decision and then saying it wasn't. the police officer not having to do an incident report on the shooting of a citizen. all of these leaks that have come, which have been pro-darren wilson throughout the last few months. no leaks that have been positive to the mike brown side. now, of course, a state of emergency when the protests have been 99% peaceful, i think all of this is a slap in the face to the community. i think these protesters are the latest in a long line of historic american protests that brought us women's sufficienter a -- suffrage, the end of the vietnam war, and i think these folks should be celebrated, not vilified worthy of the national guard and all these police tactics. rules of engagement, really, that's the term we're hearing as if we're at war with our own community? i think it's outrageous. >> lisa bloom, matt miller, eugene o'donnell, thank you. next, up next live to the

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welcome back. we have new developments in ferguson. i want to go right to craig melvin outside the courthouse. are you with us? >> reporter: yeah, i got you. >> what can you tell us? >> reporter: the unified command, unified command we saw last time, unified command has been activated, also set up. this, of course, the umbrella law enforcement group that is going to oversee the response to the expected protest. it's been set up in the same location as last time. as you recall, last time it was run -- head up by captain ron johnson. captain johnson is still part of the unified command. this time it's going to be run essentially by the chief of -- chief of st. louis county

police. we've gotten official word from the st. louis county prosecutor's office. again, this is just what we've been reporting here. st. louis county prosecutor's office saying officially the grand jury hearing michael brown/darren wilson investigation has reached a decision. it will be announced later today. details to follow. that's the first official communication we've gotten from the st. louis county prosecutor's office so far. again, those two new bits of information. st. louis county prosecutor's office confirms what we've been reporting for the last couple of hours here. also the unified command, law enforcement umbrella agency that's going to be overseeing the response has been activated. and those officers -- those officers are there, there on site. i'm told some of the national guard troops are there as well. >> thanks for that update. we know president obama has been urging calm on the streets of ferguson. here's what he had to say about that.

>> protest peaceful. this is a country that allows everybody to express their views, but using any event as an expense for violence is contrary to rule of law. >> we are expecting a grand jury decision in a few hours. luke russert is at the white house. today the white house reiterated the president's call for calm. what is the latest? >> that's right, abby. the sound bite you just played saying, keep things peaceful and keep things in perspective. our own chris jansing pressed white house spokesman josh earnest on the possibility of would the president be around later tonight to comment publicly about a decision in order to try and push forward some calm, if that was, in fact, needed. take a listen to his response. >> i think, you know, his interview with abc, the president delivered a pretty forceful message about his

views. those individuals in reactions to the grand jury's decision that want to protest should do so peacefully. and he cited the words of mr. brown's parents who indicated the proper way to remember and pay tribute to their son's memory is for people to express their views peacefully. that is a viewpoint that the president wholeheartily embraces. >> reporter: that's obviously the president's viewpoint. we do not know whether or not he'll make that viewpoint publicly from a statement from the white house but it remains on the table a possibility. certainly something to look on as this has been such a national conversation. if the president were to weigh in tonight, that would be extremely significant. >> luke russert at the white house. thank you so much. let's now bring in strategist at ske knickerbocker. how much is the white house and eric hold other line for what happens tonight? >> eric holder has been paying

attention to this, running point for the administration. they're paying close attention. don't think we should look past the responsibility that mayor knowles and governor nixon have here. they're responsible for trying to heal the wounds as well. it will be interesting to see how they react because i think the last time when they broke out in august, their response was very slow. they looked like they were uncaring. i think people felt like basically no one was listening to them. that there was -- you know, no one in the state government actually cared about the fact this young man was murdered, was in the middle of the street for hours. you had this police force come in. it was essentially they were the targets. and i think that hopefully jay nixon and the mayor of ferguson have done some work to kind of ease that. i haven't really seen much evidence of that. >> and you make an important point because there really are three phases to this. there's the underlying incident, tragic loss of life. there's the legal process, how

that is being deltd with and a way that inspires any confidence, uniformity and fairness. third, the ongoing question how the state, monopoly of force, what has been dealing with mostly -- not exclusively, but mostly been legal, law-abiding protests. when you look at the policy piece, doug, as someone who knows washington well and worked in congress, members of congress were critical of that third piece of that law enforcement response. do you think folks in congress will be watching over the coming days and where is the reaction to that piece specifically? >> i think they will be watching closely. you saw everyone -- certainly democrats but even rand paul who came out, and i respect him for this, and i give him props for coming out after the build up and criticizing the response from the police there. and i think that there will be a close monitorization of what

happened following the decision and figuring out, is there a better way to deal with a build up of police forces in cities? what can they -- what can be done about hiring practices inside of police forces? i mean, ferguson is a majority black city. and the police force is overwhelmingly white. so you know, i think looking at those practices, i know the justice department is going to be looking at that, but i think certainly congress taking a step, holding hearings, is a wise move. and i hope that the new republican majority takes steps to try to look at these issues. >> as to what you and both ari are both talking about here is this situation is actually bigger than michael brown. that there are folks who were protesting in foeerguson and feeling this situation throughout the country who wanted changes in how we are related to, how black and brown communities are related to by their police forces.

we talk about militarization, we talk about community policing, we talk about body cameras and stop and frisk and other sorts of things, we played sound of ben crump earlier this hour saying that folks want this child's death to not be in vain. they want changes to the system. do you think we can really get a different relationship, a changed relationship, with the american police force? >> i'm deeply skeptical of that. i would hope so but this has been going on for hundreds of years in terms of the sense -- certainly among african-americans that people in law enforcement and larger authority figures don't care about us. and don't care about the fact that our -- you know, don't care about our lives. and i think that this larger -- i think you're seeing in this country a growing sense among everyone that there's this deep frustration with institutions. police, government, et cetera.

this is something that african-americans have been feeling for years and years. so, i would hope so, but, you know, i just haven't seen a real commitment by folks from -- across the country to really deal with it on a long, sustained basis and not just deal with a crisis moment and then forget about it. >> i think that's so well said here, doug. there's a reason why ferguson was a national story because it did touch on all of the issues that you and ari and toure are talking about here. there's also an economic piece. there's a piece around inequality that i think, you know, really a lot of people saw similar circumstances in their own backyard, even without the specific case of what happened in ferguson. as we know, members of congress don't always view events the way that most of the american public view events. do you think that members view this as a national issue, as something that requires national change, or are they viewing this as a ferguson-specific issue?

>> i think it depends on what members you're talking about. i think the congressional black caucus feels this is a national issue. i think congressional hispanic cauc caucus. other members, not just limited to the ethnic caucuses, but, you know, it's really -- it's going to be interesting to see over time whether or not congress does forget about this or really act on it. and i think that you're looking -- i think you're looking at certain things coming up in congress, whether it has to do with sentencing reform, voting reform, all of these issues that gets to underlying sense among people in these communities that no one karsz about them or listening to them. if congress does deal with that, i think that's a welcome step. >> doug, thank you very much. really appreciate it. >> thanks a lot. another big story broke today. chuck hagel out at defense. that is next.

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of my life. >> he has helped america's leadership around the world. you have always given me your honest advice and council. you have. when it has mattered most behind closed doors you have always given it to me straight. for that i will always be grateful. >> both defense secretary and general attorney -- new nominee. will have to get through broughtal senate confirmation. for more on these fights ahead, let's bring in kevin, executive editor as defense one magazine. thanks for being with us. >> many pleasure. >> you conducted an approval

rating poll. only getting 26% for hagel. why are people so down often him. >> well chuck has been a problem before he came to office whether he was up to the job intellectually and as a leader. he was out of office for several years. he was a popular u.s. senator but went on the outs with his own party and got a tough grilling from congress before he got to office. when he got to office he followed in the foot steps of two men that for gates was revered but for pineda, he was considered a real grandfather of the building. and in hagel's time there was larger doubts for the strategy for isis and syria the u.s. was behind the ball when it came to

these crisis. i think that poll reflects the doubt of the administration as well as in hagel himself. >> i think a lot of that was lesser known to the rest of the public. this resignation caught many of us off guard. president obama has had a rough time with defense secretaries and for whatever reason has ended badly. does this announcement further highlight a divide between the white house and the joint chiefs at the pentagon. >> i don't think the relationships have ended badly. they are still respected men, in charge of national security. i understand they have had their book criticizing the way the white house has run national security strategy. when it comes to the joint chiefs or second hagelu secreta

hagel, i'm not buying that. president obama set a high bar for military intervention saying isis would need to have nuclear weapons to have troops on the ground. he has kept the troops close to his heart saying he doesn't want to send our men in without a plan of what happens next. how does the united states go into this crisis, create chaos and somehow not owning it, being wrapped into the middle east, again, in the same way. so there is talk that hagel was also disappointed with the white house straet edgy. house strategy. this is more of a split between what hagel and obama wants rather than the chiefs of. >> it is it a firing at a very

awkward time for this sort of move. i think back to when secretary hagel said isis was a imminent threat to every interest we have, which is not the position the white house was taking at that time, even now, do you think that is sort of a big part of this problem? >> no. i think ha wthat was a bid of word game at the time. i think republicans were trying to trap the white house into saying whether they believe this was a threat and whether they took isis series. so some came out saying it is a imminent threat to u.s. interests. taking great pains to say since then, much more specifically, this is a threat to the region and a conflict the u.s. must be involved but no not a threat to the homeland generically, yet but could be. >> all right, really appreciate

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>> stay with msnbc tonight as we await the decision from the grand jury in st. louis county. that does it for the cycle. "now" with alex wagner starts now. >> the grand jury has reached a decision in the michael brown case. we are awaiting the nounsment regarding that decision. jay nixon will meet with members of the clergy in ferguson in the next hour. the twelve-member grand jury which has been meeting since

august, reconvened today, today's decision coming after many are question whether the grand jury was the best option in the first place. offed all available evidence but no recommendations on what charges to consider. >> usually the prosecutor has a very specific case against the criminal defendant but in this case he is allowing evidence both for and against an indictme indictment. >> the brown family arguing the process is unfair. >> i think this process is unlike anything i've ever seen in my 20 years of practice. why you come in with charges, it's probable cause, seven people said his hands