e i'm eating bacon and rich creamy cheese before my sister's wedding well it's only 100 calories, so you'll be ready for that dress uh-huh... you don't love the dress? i love my sister... 40 flavors. 100 calories or less. the night before thanksgiving, will there be peace in ferguson? let's play "hardball." >> good evening to you. i am in for chris matthews. demonstrators and protests continue again today. now 48 hours after a grand jury declined to charge officer darren wilson for murder or manslaughter for shooting michael brown. demonstrators gathered near the historic arch in downtown st. louis and tried to storm city hall. police say three protesters were arrested, including one for assaulting an officer. the new protests come after what st. louis county police chief

john bellmar called a much better night on the streets of ferguson. demonstrations were small last night with none of the shootings or arson that occurred that first night after the grand jury decision. the police did arrest at least 44 people in ferguson for mostly misdemeanors. police seized two guns and a molotov cocktail. the police sounded a note of support for some demonstrators. >> a lot of the protesters that came out for peaceful protests actually were assisting us tonight. but once again, there are those that are stuck on violence and embed themselves with the peaceful protesters. >> also new today, michael brown's mother is speaking out. she said tomorrow, thanksgiving will be particularly difficult for her. >> i'm just hurt. i don't even want to think about tomorrow being thanksgiving. it's just thursday. i don't even plan to celebrate because i can't. >> on the other side of the

story, officer darren wilson has been making his case in the court of public opinion and we'll show that to you in a moment. meanwhile, in another local case that's drawing national outrage today, cleveland police released this video showing two officers shooting a 12-year-old boy who was holding a pellet gun. now police say the officers told him three times to put the gun down. an investigation there on that is forthcoming. back in ferguson, night is falling on thanksgiving eve, a period that authorities do hope will mark a peaceful few days for this community. we're joined by msnbc's reporter on the ground. how is it right now? >> reporter: hi, ari. the night is young but things are very quiet in ferguson. as the residents in the community pick up the pieces from the devastation from days before. last night we did see that mixture of peaceful protesting and some aggressive flair-ups from the crowd. it was on the first night of the national guard presence as local officials were promising. that heightened presence should

continue on tonight but it is yet to be seen whether or not the snow that has been falling all of today will have an impact on the crowds coming out. earlier today we did see an example of what we're seeing more of. these groups of protesters who are using the day to use their message, instead of just solely at night. this is something that we're seeing more and more here in st. louis with a heavily organized practice. they're taking nods of this civil disobedience tactics in having organized routes. they have predetermined actions. for example they stood in the middle of an intersection for four minutes of silence. instead of damaging property, these groups are getting residents' attention by being that minor pain in the neck during their daily commute but their keeping the message alive and their also broadening that

message into a more national scope. mike brown is not the only young african-american to be shot dead by police. there are so many other names and stories to be told. >> and amanda, we're seeing that around the nation today. not even going into thanksgiving. what has been the reaction in ferguson to all the other demonstrations designed to be solidarity with ferguson? >> reporter: that has been the hope since the very beginning. that this could really spark a national outcry. and it was almost overwhelming to see how many other cities, not only across the country but also around the world who are gathering in solidarity. it is not just for michael brown. and i think that's the message that they're wanting to convey. that black lives matter. all lives matter. that they really want justice for a very broken system. >> all right. amanda on the ground there, happy thanksgiving to you. i'm joined now by my guests. good evening to you both. let me start with you, mark, what do you make of what's happening in ferguson as things are slowing down a bit and the

police themselves saying it's been better? >> i think the events of the first night were really based on some strong quite naturally, some strong emotions that start out, based on the announcement was made so late. and those, the criminal element will creep into a protest. they had advantage. they were able to thrive off the emotionalism of the announcement being so immediately before the start of the demonstrations. i think what's happened, you see the more organized police response. more importantly, you see the more organized protest response because there have been groups trying to organize, putting this thing together for several months. you see that come into play. >> some of those groups, so frustrated by feeling like the crimes that did occur out there on night number one as something they don't want to be blamed for. they were trying to organize against. i want to play abc airing more of the interview with darren

wilson this morning. of course the ferguson police officer embroiled in all this. he explained in his version what happened during that initial confrontation in the car. let's watch. >> i said i'm going to shoot you. and then his response immediately he grabbed the top of my gun. when he grabbed it, he said you're too much of a [ bleep ] to shoot me. while he's doing, that i can feel his hands trying to come over my hand and get inside the trigger guard and try to shoot me with my own gun. >> then wilson also described what happened in the moments just before he shot and killed brown. >> some of the eyewitnesses have said, when at that moment he turned around, he turned around and put his hands up. >> that would be incorrect? >> no way? >> no way. >> you said he starts to run. he starts to come toward you. and? >> at that time i gave myself another mental check. can i shoot this guy? legally, can i?

and the question that i answered myself was, i have to. if i don't, he will kill me if he gets to me. >> even though he is 35, 40 feet away? >> once he is coming that direction, if he hasn't stopped yet, when is he going to stop? >> and for contrast, dorian johnson was there. when this all went down, johnson took issue with a number of those points that officer wilson claimed, including the claim that brown had his hands anywhere inside his waist band. >> his hands were never at his waist. he had on basketball shorts. he couldn't hold anything in his waist. his hands was up. he didn't have a belt on, it wouldn't stay at his waist even if he did have anything at his waist. his hands, were he never punched at the officer, no type of manner. he was merely trying to explain to the officer that he did not have a weapon and why are you shooting? >> people are going into the thanksgiving holiday, a lot of folks don't like to discuss tough issues around that table. yet you have to think, looking

at the differing accounts, this is something people will try to make sense of. >> you have the two readily different accounts. and second, you had officer wilson, the language he used when he referred to, he thought michael brown, he used the term demon to describe michael brown. i think the language he used is going to cause a lot of controversy and a lot of anger. you heard michael brown's family was very angry about that. there was a discussion about policy solutions that should come from this. and one thing is the idea having officers when they are out patrolling to have body cameras on them. and would it probably help to address this situation where you have two accounts that are so radically different as if they didn't see the same incident at all. you mentioned body cameras. some of the studies are pretty clear. they instituted them with a control group.

they found a 60% drop in use of force by officers, 88% drop in citizen complaints. untangle that for us. from an officer perspective, that would suggest a benefit for police, too. because they have video to defend them against those citizen complaints and every one gets documentation then of these interactions. >> sure. absolutely. it is a no brainer and it is a win/win regardless of the fact that many police unions and police associations are resistant to support it. but listen. when it is a no brainer moving forward, that's something that should be part of modern day policing. i want to touch on a legal point. it is very important. that is the use of deadly force. the cop-out that has been commonly used by police officers involved in these shootings for quite some time. being in fear for their life. i think it is very important for to us put that into perspective. the legal standard is not just fear for your life.

it is reasonable fear for your life. if you are seeing a demonic presence before with you glowing demonic eyes, is that reasonable? if you're seeing yourself in a position similar to hulk hogan, this fantasized wrestling figure, is that reasonable? i think in many of these shootings, we must demand that the fear of life be reasonable. and that's a legal standard. >> that's something people would try to make sense of. a reasonable apprehension. missouri law speaks to that. or the rationale of a suspect fleeing a felony would be the other rationale. both of which have a factual component. i want to play also something as folks are weighing this out. the lawyer for dorian johnson told chris hayes that namely that as everyone compares different testimony, there is a difference between testimony of his client, a witness, and that of wilson. >> i think it is important to note, dorian johnson observed this but was not on trial for his life. officer wilson who gave his self

serving grand jury testimony was trying not to be indicted. >> do you think people will view the officer that way? as someone who had to say anything he could to try to defend himself? or will they continue to see him as someone who risked his life in the line of duty? a lot of this with this george stephanopoulos interview is about people's assessment of this individual. >> i think we've entered a zone, the politics of it. i think you're seeing it on this issue as well. some people believe wilson a few months ago and still believe him now. others believe the brown family. i think it will be challenging because we now have people sort of set into their narrative about what they think happened. and you're seeing that with even like president obama trying to figure out how do i talk about this in a way that appeals to all people. one idea that you're hearing a lot from the administration looking forward, the idea, how

do we train police officers better to work with communities? and the idea maybe about having training in terms of racial bias. that's a way you can look, we don't know. we may never know what happened on that day but we can think about ways in which officers can work better with communities in the future. >> you mentioned the president. take a listen to what the president said in the wake of this grand jury decision and what he's asking his attorney general to do. >> those who are prepared to work constructively, your president will work with you. so as part of that, i've instructed attorney general eric holder, not just to investigate what happened in ferguson but also to identify specific steps we can take together to set up a series of regional meetings, focused on building trust in our communities. next week we'll bring together state and local officials and law enforcement and community leaders and faith leaders, to start identifying very specific steps we can take to make sure that law enforcement is fair.

>> that sounds great, mark. yet i think it is a fair reflection of what protesters are asking for. not only ferguson but as we've been reporting around the country tonight is we don't need more meetings. what we're hearing from these folks on the ground is, we need the grand jury process to function the way it is supposed to, uniformly for everyone, not that there's a different process for say, a police defendant in this situation than there would be for everybody else. >> yeah. i think what the president is proposing, which is positive, is a more comprehensive approach. the conversation about criminal justice reform can be included along with dealing with issues of individual police and state regulations, along with the use of technology or training, et cetera. and that is a positive step forward. there is no one side, one size fits all.

there must be a comprehensive approach and it must involve the community, in large part involve the community. perception becomes reality across the board. and unless we're really willing to have an open, honest and candid discussion about even race and its part in law enforcement in a criminal justice system, then we're just spinning our wheels. so a comprehensive approach. and it starts with the discussion and planning and mobilizing. >> all right. thank you so much for joining me. up ahead, we have an update on weather and thanksgiving travel. there are flights delayed across the u.s. and new reports from around the country, including some very large and spontaneous protests. we'll look at what is sparking the unrest. the goals of these efforts. and even why some conservatives are saying why activism and politics in the streets could be a good thing. that's next.

this is "hardball." the place for politics.

to some news with one of the most powerful judges in the nation. judge ruth bader ginsburg underwent heart surgery today. the 81-year-old justice experienced discomfort during a routine workout. doctors discovered a blockage in her right coronary artery. they installed a stent and they say she is resting and could be discharged in as soon as two days. justice ginsburg has resisted recent calls to retire before president obama leaves office saying she's going full steam and she leads the other eight justices for issuing the fastest opinions. we'll be right back. ♪ ♪

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welcome back to "hardball". we're almost two days out exactly from the grand jury's decision not to indict officer wilson. ferguson is calmer, but protests have been happening throughout the nation. here in new york city angry protesters in manhattan

blocked access to the lincoln opportunity during rush hour. that's a crucial exit from the city. in boston protesters marched through the streets through the south bay section. police made several arrests. down south in atlanta, police arrested 21 people after protesters broke a window at a local club. they smashed windows on a police cruiser. and the windows of a taxi as well. in l.a., dozens of protesters shut down a stretch of the 101 freeway. that was last night. the freeway opened an hour afterward. up the west coast in portland, over 1,000 protesters gathered for a mostly peaceful rally. a few hundred did clash with police who used pepper spray on some demonstrators and made several arrests. this energy and outrage may have begun in ferguson itself but we are seeing energy and activism spreading around the nation this evening and often spontaneously. joining me rashad robinson. good evening to you.

>> hello. let's start with this idea. spontaneous protests all over the place. not something we see normally. >> i think this is incredibly important to help bring this issue to cities around the country. we've been concentrating so much what's happening in ferguson but there are fergusons all around this country. as we at color of change continue to get these issues, these stories that bubble up over and over again where someone is hurt or killed by police officers, and there's no sense of accountability. what you are seeing from folks may feel spontaneous but this is the bubbling up, the bringing forth of stories and energies from everyday people. diverse crowds that we're seeing all around the country of people saying enough is enough. and that we're no longer going to allow these issues to just be in one community. for certain people to have to deal with. for black and brown people to have to deal with. this we're going to bring this to the table so everyone has to deal with this and see this. so we can start pushing for the

time of political change that we need. >> you mentioned diversity. in many of the places, we're counting up to 37 states. feeling some kind of action. and when you look out there, many of these crowds are very diverse. let's be clear and blunt. we're not just talking about young black people in a given city saying this is our problem. we're seeing something like a coalition in a lot of cities of people saying this is everyone's problem. i want to show you some still photos over the last few days as we try to reflect on what people are calling for. in l.a. we see the odds are never in our favor. protests in washington, d.c., racism hurts everyone. also, a sign, end racial profiling in d.c. that's an issue that's kicked around a lot. and stand with the people of ferguson. so rashad, let me ask you a question that is obviously one of those media questions that's not really answerable but i'm curious for your thoughts any way. how much is solidarity with ferguson and how much as we see

in the other calls, albuquerque which i want to get to, a response to other distinct problems? >> you know, in many ways, ferguson is a flash point. ferguson, like many of these stories that we've seen, could have went away. it could have been a moment in time. but there was young folks in ferguson, the young leadership who said enough is enough. and i think they've helped to inspire this new age of activism we're seeing. this participation age. 23 years ago when that video of rodney king surfaced and media had to validate it. and those stories had to be validated through the media before it got amplified. and we've seen these moments, if it doesn't get covered by main stream media, sometimes the story doesn't get out there. but underneath in it communities around the country, people are experiencing these moments and issues with police. armed with social media, and this participation age, we're seeing everyday people have the power to stand up and fight back. so yes, there is solidarity around justice.

>> we were talking about body cameras earlier in the broadcast. what does it say when we have this conversation in this nation about national security and surveillance, and everyone says, from the government on down, hey, if you're not doing anything wrong, you got nothing to hide, right? just let us take look at everything to keep you safe. why do you think that argument that's been made so vociferously since 9/11 doesn't seem to apply to police who are doing their jobs saying, if you have nothing to hide, why is it controversial to throw some videos out there? video has made the difference in some of these cases. we've heard from some law enforcement who want these cameras. >> some do. >> who feel like this is going on help exonerate them. at the end of the day, we have a real problem in this country around accountability. we do not have the type of accountability structures that actually help communities come together. they help law enforcement and communities come together to solve the type of crimes. whether it is independent

community review boards that have the type of teeth that will make sure police are accountable, or having new systems of prosecution that don't rely on sort of the police system that we currently have that has no incentive to charge and vigorously prosecute police, we've got a lot to do here. and i think body cameras are one thing. color of change is going on a petition to urge and build the momentum nationally and locally to give everyday people who want these body cameras. so we actually know what happens in a situation like michael brown. >> let me take this to a couple places. ferguson isn't the only place where these have been discussed. new york city, these big protests tonight. stop and frisk has been a huge issue. an issue in the mayoral campaign. drug enforcement, big changes in pot here, and that eric garner case. l.a. used to have big problems with police. there have been some reforms.

federal supervision has been instituted in albuquerque, new mexico. including areas where excessive force was found by independent reviews. what do you make of that sort of connection between here, this one case, and i have to be clear. we do hear from critics in ferguson who say, hey, this isn't a national issue. this is one case. yet as your group has argued, there are many cities where it connects to larger reforms and arguments. >> color of change was on the ground very early in ferguson. what i heard from many of the local leaders in ferguson, our friends at the organization for black struggles and others, they remind us there are fergusons all around the country. as people came from other places, they said hey, it will be important that we build the momentum locally in other places. so as folks are dealing with these issues in new york where i live and we've been very involved in pushing back against stop and frisk and pushing for more sensible drug laws in our state and city, and as we look at issues in los angeles and

ohio and these issues that keep bubbling up over and over, we need to build the momentum to push for local change and federal change. these marches around the country that are inconveniencing many people, but amplifying the stories and the issues that every day people are going through, are exactly what movement building is about. it is exactly sort of the new civil rights movement of our time. where civil disobedience helps to amplify the stories that some of us don't have to experience. there are many people around this country that go through their lives every day, never having to worry about interactions with police officers. helping to make these stories real for people. helping to force these conversations on to the front pages of the newspapers and have everyday americans deal with it will help us all in the end look back at this moment five years from now. ten years from now. and say that in this moment, in this moment of national crisis, we were able to come together, stand together and make change. and that is such, the powerful

thing i see about seeing this new generation of young activists. diverse, armed with technology, and willing to make a stand for the folks in ferguson but also connect that back to what's happening. >> i think that's the question. while you were speaking, we were looking at new footage recently from new york where you have the police battling. you had some arrests. you have it around the country. later in the program, we'll talk more about that. i think some people would be excited about what you just said but i think it is to be fair, an open question whether this energy is a movement or dissipates in different ways. rashad robinson, thank you for your perspective tonight. >> thanks for having me. >> up next, a busy travel day for many around the country and it has been more treacherous by the nor'easter on the east coast. we'll have more on the weather. this is "hardball," the place for politics.

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fully within my legal authority, the same kind of action taken by democrats and republicans of presidents before me, to spare the lives of two turkeys, mac and cheese. from a terrible and delicious fate. >> he does have that legal authority there. president obama pardoning the thanksgiving turkeys at the white house. that was just this afternoon. the annual ceremony had to be indoors this year due to the inclement weather caused by the winter storm which is complicating holiday plans for millions on the east coast this thanksgiving eve. for more on all of this, we go to our meteorologist. >> the situation is getting better. so that certainly is the thing. the storm system is pushing to the north and the heaviest is in new england around the boston area. here's a look at the airport delays. as this storm system clears, d.c. and baltimore no, delays. the only delays we're holding on

to are newark at two hours and boston's logan airport which is an hour and a half. that will persist through much of tonight, because they are seeing the brunt of the storm. probably about six hours until the storm clears the new england area. here it is, shifting to the north. we are getting some snow on the back edge in places like philadelphia, newark and bridgeport. we're looking at one to two inches coming their way before this is all said and done. some big snowfall out to the northwest still. in excess of six inches in some places in new jersey and parts of connecticut and upstate new york. so pretty much that i-81 corridor, if you are traveling that tonight, still be aware you are looking at snow-covered roads. mainly along i-95, just that slushy mess and a little bit slick. as we get into the overnight hours, black ice will be a problem. here's a look at the snowfall forecast. the blockbuster snow will be out through albany, bangor and manchester. the rest, the coastal areas,

that's where we're looking at a slushy one to two. by thanksgiving, it is all said and done. we're looking at a beautiful day. clear, across the board. a few leftover snow showers. >> that's good news for tomorrow. thank you, domenica davis. as we promised, we've got the latest from washington with luke russert. luke? >> reporter: good evening. a busy day of air travel in the d.c. region, the three airports expecting to see 84,000 passengers over the course of today. and there were a fair amount of cancellations here at reagan national airport. over 50 or so. also a lot of delays, on average the delays accounted for 35 to 45 minutes coming in and out of airport. a lot of that is due to the precipitation you see falling behind me. around 11:00 a.m., it was snow, turned into a little sleet. now it is turning into a steady freezing rain. thankfully because the temperatures have been above freezing, that has allowed for the runway to stay mostly safe. it has not frozen over by any

means. all that being said, this should push out by about 8:00 tonight. at which point every flight going out of d.c. tomorrow should be in the clear. if you're flying out from here tomorrow morning, you should be in the clear. i spoke to a lot of passengers. most in good spirits, 35, 45 minutes. obviously cancellations are no fun but if they can travel out there tomorrow, they'll be okay. back to you. take care. >> thanks. you take care as well. up next, the long simmering problems in ferguson were not news to president obama. he is once again trying to speak to what can seem like two americas. a political challenge that carries more risk than reward. the president says it is vital and he is doing it while changing up his foreign policy team on the war on isis. we'll dig into this busy week for the president. this is "hardball." the place for politics. take a . it works how you want to work.

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>> here's what's happening. 130 demonstrators were arrested in los angeles as protests continued across the country following monday's grand jury decision in the fatal shooting of michael brown. thousands of travellers are hoping to get off the ground after flights were grounded yesterday. macy's thanksgiving day parade is just hours away. we'll have a live report when we come back at the top of the hour. now it's back to "hardball." >> welcome back to "hardball." thanksgiving is usually a lighter week for the white house. problem has been busy addressing

issues in firg ferguson for two in a row. >> the bottom line is nothing of significance, nothing of benefit results from destructive acts. i've never seen a civil rights law or a health care bill or an immigration bill result because a car got burned. it happened because people mobilize. it happened because people vote. it happened because people organize. people look at the best policies to solve the problem. that's how you actually move something forward. >> it is too early to know whether the protests continuing around the country that we're monitoring tonight will move things forward. but is voter mobilization really a realistic way to move things forward for many of the most marginalized in ferguson? jonathan capehart asked whether protesters might connect with

local officials given all the talk of a more civic response. lowry offered a bracing apply. quote, this is a disenfranchised population. they don't vote for their elected leadership and they don't feel represented by them. why would they turn to them for leadership now? a fair question. let's take it to the "hardball" roundtable. eugene robinson, political analyst jonathan alter. gene, why would we ask or expect that kind of civic participation now? >> well, i don't know. you don't expect anything. but i think that is what you need. that's the way our system works. so what i think people need to focus on are specifics. specific candidates, specific proposals, specific ideas, specific concrete things that they can vote for, that make it worthwhile to get out and vote. >> if i can push back on it a little, let me ask you.

is there something of a false distinction? the idea that you have to do everything and we should get people mobilized voting and politics and that's what a lot of people associate with change. or whether people register or not, that's something we're seeing around the country. i don't think the voter registration rate is 100% at all these events and i'm be -- i'm not convinced that has to be a bad thing. i want to play for you an unlikely advocate of street protests. listen for this new sound from the "tonight show" from bill o'reilly. >> african-americans, some of them, not all, feel that the justice system does not give them a fair shake. that's a legitimate protest. and i respect that. because things don't change in this country unless you protest. they don't get better unless you protest. >> gene? >> well, that's absolutely right. there is clearly a role for protest.

i'm not saying there is no role for protest. there has been my entire life. i wouldn't be here without protest. but at some point that protest does have to get translated into action and hopefully that energy can get translated into concrete change. but you need the energy first, clearly. >> what do you think of what we're seeing around the country? is it political? or is that what folks want it to be who follow politics but it is something else entirely? >> i think it is a combination of both. i think a lot of the mobilization done on social media all across the country, a lot of these events, there are voter registration efforts in order to sort of connect those two pieces together. as far as the suggestion, one of the ways in which to enfranchise the folks in ferguson is to change the date of their local elections. which as reported in august when all the flare-ups began, their local elections are in april and african-american turnout has been as low as 6%.

compare that to 2012 where african-american turnout was on par for ferguson. that's one thing tangibly, to help more of the people in ferguson know that the election for their local officials including the district attorney is taking place so they can then, you know, participate in their self-determination. >> jonathan, you've spoken about the low turnout in ferguson as well. >> yeah. but i think you want to also draw a distinction between ferguson and what's going on around the rest of the country. you have the protests all across the united states. the big question is what should the agenda be? and i think we should think as gene said, very specifically. to me, something that is very much needed are these vest cameras for every police officer in the united states. i was interested to hear that sean hannity, the night before last, said he thought that was a good idea too. the resistance comes from the law and order community which

doesn't like change, they don't like anything new. even if it could be a really useful tech fix which is not going to end the harmful treatment of either criminal justice system in all cases. but it will improve things. and as it happens, president obama, when he was in illinois state senator, negotiated a compromise between prosecutors and defense attorneys that led to the videotaping of interrogations in illinois criminal cases. it has been very helpful. it has been very helpful for the prosecution and for the defense and for the search for truth. the same thing is true of a vest cam. we have the technology. imagine if we had had it in this case. how much further along we would be in the fact-finding. so let's get that done. the energy, the energy that drives this particular reform. >> such an important point.

and gene, jonathan is talking about fact finding and how having a system to find the facts that was transparent would be useful here, doesn't this seem to go to one of the distinctions in this new wave of what some are calling a different civil rights movement than the old days. in the old days, a lot of segregationists knew exactly what they thought and what they wanted to hold on to. here there seems to be an actual factual underpinning dispute as america debates what happened here, just as they did with trayvon martin, as they so often do. and speak to us about why the transparency in the grand jury has been such a big issue on this one? >> well, it is because there are these different narratives on what happened in this case and every case, and the narratives tend to align with political views and socioeconomic status and all sorts of things that should not bear on the actual fact of what actually happened. cameras would take us a long way toward being able to determine

that. another thing that would take us a long way is a trial in open court. where everything could be aired and witnesses could be cross examined properly and we could perhaps get closer to the truth. i think we do get closer to the truth in criminal trials. >> and briefly, how much is there an age gap for a new generation that's growing up with video phones? >> i think there is a huge age difference. i've had a lot of discussions with my parents who grew up in the '60s. they were focused on more the looting and the fires and the violence and not so much on the fact that there were protests, that were peaceful protests all over the country. i think we need a little education in terms of telling our parents and our grandparents the ways on which we are organizing and they can teach us the way they did it. so there's best practices all around. >> all of you stay. after the break we'll talk about what kind of person president obama also wants as his new defense secretary. this is "hardball," the place for politics.

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visit audioffers.com today. this is "hardball" where it is never too early to look ahead to 2016. we have new numbers on the presidential race. mitt romney leads the republican field with 19% support. jeb bush with 11, followed by chris christie and ben carson at 8%.

with romney out of the race, bush and christie would be ahead. on the democratic side, it's all hillary clinton. elizabeth warren and joe biden running way behind. and this is interesting. romney is the only republican that would beat hillary clinton in a general election match-up there. hypothetical races apparently where he does best. we'll be right back. huh, fifteen minutes could save you fifteen percent or more on car insurance. everybody knows that. well, did you know genies can be really literal? no. what is your wish? no...ok...a million bucks!

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to fill this tall order it appears there's no clear front-runner. i'm back with our politics roundtable. gene, you've been writing about this. i want to read something from "the new york times" basically assessing hagel's problem. defense secretary hagel was not in sync with the obama administration. the reality led to his ouster. mr. hagel fell short in the president's eyes because he was passive and quiet in the situation room. hardly the commanding figure needed when the country's in a new war against isis extremists in iraq and syria. and he seemed captive of the generals and not in sync with the president's team. is that fair, gene? >> well, i'm not sure. when, you know, people in the white house say that defense secretaries captive with the generals and the secretary of state is captive to the diplomats, whatever, that could be true. you also have to wonder how much the white house wants to listen to that sort of input. and it's a fine line to walk. because the generals will try to

roll any defense secretary and get him or her to do whatever they want. that said, what the president really needs, i think, is someone to help figure out this whole isis strategy, which, as i've written several times, seems betwixt and between to me. it doesn't make a lot of sense. hard to see how it gets the president where he says we need to go in terms of defeating isis. >> you're nailing it. when you talk about the epa, you don't want regulatory capture because all the power is in what the military regulates. in the military context, the power is with the generals. let me read from rosa brooks who worked in the obama administration at the pentagon. and she said about a hagel replacement, the clear suggestion is that the white house does indeed still want a doormat. hagel just forgot whose doormat he's supposed to be. so it sure looks like this move presages a white house doubling down on existing business. it picks up on gene's point that

he might have been doing his job well if he was reflecting some of what the generals were concerned about in the top-down strategy. >> it's very hard to know exactly what all the head slamming at the line of scrimmage is between the national security council and the people at the pentagon and the uniformed officers at the pentagon. so in the past, in 2009, for instance, i had a big section in my book that year about how obama felt like he was being jammed by the pentagon. that was the word that he used. he felt like he was being crowded by them, and they were limiting his options in these very complex issues, particularly related to afghanistan. now we're back in afghanistan, we're back in iraq, we're sort of in syria. and he needs somebody really smart at the pentagon who is going to kind of sort through these various options and be

able to give him enough options so that he's comfortable drilling down and making the decision for himself. the important thing to remember about this president is it doesn't matter that much who's in any of these jobs. he makes all the big decisions by himself. >> clearly. and i want to jump in and say that's why the doormat analogy is so evocative. and the other political piece here is republicans coming back in january and saying, we don't know that we want to authorize this isis war. >> i think that that's the problem that we are in right now. and i think that, you know, that is a problem that is nothing new. i don't think that we should be optimistic in thinking that republicans are going to be reasonable simply because the secretary of defense is such an important position and so necessary in this moment. so i'm pessimistic about them being able to confirm someone who at least is in the middle between the positions of the republicans and where the white house is right now on issues of

foreign policy. >> yeah, you could say well maybe the president should reach out, pick a republican for this job. >> right. >> he already did that. >> exactly. >> and they didn't like chuck hagel. i want to thank eugene robinson, jonathan alter and zerlina maxwell. ♪

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news you can e-mail me at ari@msnbc.com. or wish me a happy thanksgiving. i wish you one. have a happy and safe thanksgiving to everyone out there and thanks for watching. good morning, everybody, happy thanksgiving. i'm betty nguyen. today we're following the fall out from ferguson as demonstrators across the country took to the treats for a third night. the international community is reacting to the shock death of australian cricket player two days after he was struck in the head during a match. as americans prepare to gather around the thanksgiving table today the thanksgiving parade is just hours away. i'll speak with the parade's executive producer. but on this thanksgiving morning thousands are struggling to get where they are going for the turkey dinner. all thanks to a nasty nor'easter that began pummelling the eastern seaboard basically along the i-95 corridor from