there's not one way to do something. no details too small. american express open forum. this is what membership is. this is what membership does. mnchlths da . darren wilson resigns. good morning. thanks for starting your sunday morning with us today. we want to begin with a huge developing story out of ferguson, missouri. nbc news can now confirm that officer darren wilson has resigned from the ferguson police force. we expect ferguson officials to speak about the resignation at some point today. wilson has been on paid administrative leave since the shooting death of unarmed teenage michael brown back in august. the st. louis prosecutor announced that a grand jury

looking into the matter had decided against indicting wilson in relationship to that shooting. in his resignation later, officer wilson writes, it was my hope to continue in police work. the safety of other police officers in the community are of paramount importance to me. it is my hope that my resignation will allow the community to heal. wilson's resignation came on a night of relative calm in ferguson. more than 100 protesters gathered near the police headquarters there. officers, though, only made two arrests. to discuss the latest developments out of ferguson and other big stories and i'm joined by my panel. republican strategist, ann marie cox and lynn sweet for "chicago sun-times." start with this resignation of darren wilson. word this was coming for the last few weeks. one way of looking at this is what took so long. everything else in this case

there were leaks ahead of everything. it seems like on one level he had to resign. you can't go back into a community like that after something like this. >> yes. one thing that, you know, it's tough. i don't think, i don't want to be entirely callus to what his life is like or is going to be like, but in his resignation letter he called his resignation the hardest thing he's ever done. on twitter someone joked that they had to look into their training practices at the ferguson police department and said this is the hardest thing he's ever done. and the other thing, to say he's resigning in order to let the community heal, there might have been a better time to say that. there might have been something, if he had done that earlier and shown the remorse that people were demanding to hear earlier, things might have gone a little bit differently. of course, it's easy to say that. what's troubling about what's happening there is that this just seems to be more than 1,000 cuts. every day there's something new,

little outrage and we can't seem to have a moment to breathe and to really kind of take a breath and heal. his resignation actually probably does the opposite as it happens, as the timing is now. >> so, there are several other, we sort of anticipated that there would be a resignation at some point and other things that are probably going to be happening in the coming days or weeks. at some point be the announcement will the justice department, few expect that is going to happen. the question of the family pursuing some kind of civil case and some kind of announcement there at some point. there are other moments you can see on the horizon. >> i can see he didn't want to resign until he knew what happened with the grand jury. the decision triggered the protests there. two investigations by the justice department going on and there is a chance one or the other could find some reason to press ahead and some kind of a charge against him. you know, one is civil and one is criminal. ask then as ana marie said,

there is the civil. when you go back to that statement. i want to go back to the idea of remorse. even though he has officially been found not at fault. it doesn't mean you can't say i'm sorry. i know many police officers. when you do, when you do use your gun, when you hurt someone when you, god forbid, kill someone. it's okay to say you're sorry, you wish it didn't happen even if you did the right thing. in the grand jury testimony he said, i wouldn't change a thing i did. >> kelly, reading or watching the interview he gave this week with george stephanopoulos what struck me is the same thing that lynn was just saying there. on one level you can look at it, it's been months, we don't know what's been going on for this guy's life for month. lots of anguish we haven't seen and you're seeing somebody who semer is emerged from this process and

that's part of the favorable interpretation. but the other interpretation is, yeah, you're going out there and you're making statements and people are hearing you for the first time. you have to sound a little bit more contrite, don't you? >> i think there are no winners in the ferguson situation, whatsoever, including with officer wilson. i'm glad he resigned and i know people think he did it for personal purposes and he is doing it to help the community heal. he's a distraction. i also hope that the rest of the community heals because it's, it's now in doubt, steve, whether these national retailers will want to rebuild in ferguson. i read a lot of interviews with the one shop keeper who said he provides the millic and the bread and the eggs and people walk to the store and they rely upon himp . it was looted in august and burned to the ground this time. a lot of healing that needs to be done. i can't imagine anyone who takes

the life of another under any circumstances doesn't feel remorse but i can't get into anyone else's head. i want to say even as time marches on it's difficult to see a single winner in ferguson. >> we have much more on this later in the show and we'll return to ferguson a little bit about the president's role this week and the reaction to that. switching gears a lot more that we want to cover that is happening this weekend. the facebook post. the facebook post of a house republican aide criticizing sasha and malia's appearance at this week's turkey pardoning ceremony. that post went up yesterday and now gone viral and now deleted post. but in it elizabeth lawton who is communication director for steven fincher of tennessee said the president's daughters ought to try showing a little class and to dress like you deserve respect, not a spot at a bar. lauten is also a former media

director and in apology saying those judgmental feelings truly have no place in my heart. yesterday sasha and malia were back at their father's side at a public appearance when he went to the politics and pros book store when he went to do a small business saturday holiday shopping event. you can see them there with their father. >> where do we start? >> honestly. do you remember when bill clinton became president and "saturday night live" did this caricature of chelsea clinton and it was such a backlash. i remember people had a friend of mine in school started wearing the leave chelsea alone t-shirts. in politics the kids don't ask for it. they don't deserve it. >> beside the fact, those clothes seem wonderful. those outfits were darling. so, whoever thought that, i mean, i've seen women dress in some outfits. >> have you ever seen the way the girls dress? >> without even going to

comparative situations look at everyone you see and what is being run. that's a darling outfit. but, also, in case if you don't know it. this is a traditional thing for the girls to do with their dad and what kind of professional pr person even would go there? she might have said, she had remorse and she prayed about it. i don't care what's in her head. she might not have liked the outfits, what is in our society now that everyone thinks -- >> you pray before you say those kind of things and normally you'll get stopped. as much of a tradition of pardoning the turkey is rolling your eyes at the dog. i don't want to participate in this awesomeful family traditio dad. >> i thought they were within proper lines'. >> very typical, i laughed because that's a very typical teenage moment. i can remember my sister did

that. i rolled my eyes at my parents. >> in the end, too, i think they were serious. so, even a little something like this, pp they were there, they were polite. they showed up. >> the clothing aside, they don't look very happy to be there. >> who would be if you're a teenager. >> let me just state for the record, i can't stand when the first children are brought into almost anything. never talked about chelsea clinton, didn't like it when the bush girls were picked on and pick a kennedy card. they seem to reflect their dad's lack of joy on the job. he has hadn't had joy on the job for several years and if papa's not happy. >> it's when mama's not happy. >> i'm paraphrasing it for this situation. but, no, look, i was 13. i was 16, that's the ages of -- >> do you think these guys are -- >> i never criticize anybody

looks. >> do you think these girls are somehow betraying an attitude that is different from every other 13-year-old in the universe? >> of course not. but you're forgetting they are the first daughters. in other words, if i hate the comments on the clothing whatsoever, but they didn't look really happy. >> but you're commenting on the first daughters. >> take your daughter to work day is almost every single day. i'm not saying that at all. >> lack of joy on the job. >> does he look happy as the president? >> also what they're doing is not a job. >> i think it's certainly possible if barack obama is feeling frustrated, certainly not the first president to feel frustrated and, obviously, it's possible his kids are just reflecting being kids. not so much him. >> that's what i just said. >> he actually had some fun on that day. >> i just understand the woman and i don't know her, but the

woman who is posting these things giving the title she had, media director and i think she said social media role, you would think you would know better than to go on social media and do something like that. >> she may not be a social media director much longer but she has a role as a punch line. >> she social mediaed it and we all know about it. >> they delete the thing. you can never undo it once it's online. it will always leave on and on and you can hit the delete line hundreds of times. >> i hope it doesn't matter to the obama daughters just like now if people are tweeting about our appearances. it shouldn't matter to them. they're lovely young women who have bright futures. obviously, a very loving family. they even get to live with grandma, which i think is great. >> two years left of the obama presidency. if you're out there listening, future people making posts on facebook. leave it the president and first

lady. leave the kids out of it. anyway, interesting news potentially about hillary clinton and jeb bush. interesting perspective on that. we'll share it with you on the other side of this break. stay with us. this is the equivalent of the sugar in one regular soda. and this is one soda a day over an average adult lifetime. but there's a better choice. drink more brita water. clean, refreshing, brita.

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all right. so here's one that will make you sit up and take notice. charlie cook dropped an apparent bombshell in his remarks at a recent event. remarks that were reported last night in the "kansas city star" said cook said on the record that he does not believe hillary clinton or jeb bush will appear in the 2016 general election ballot. cook is a handicapper and doing that for three decades now. he also said that hillary clinton, in his estimation, has

only a 25 to 30% chance of even running for president. if she does run, cook says, he has "lost her fastball." he was apparently less than impressed with her recent book tour. cook did not have good news for establishment republicans either in the crowd saying jeb bush is the long shot for the republican nomination citing bush's immigrations as two major sticking points with the gop base. he has a point on jeb and the republican base. but this hillary clinton, should we be taking a step back here because we've been saying for six months now for a year now hillary clinton 2016, the campaign basically started eight years ago and going to stop on the general election day. is there a chance she doesn't run? >> yes, of course. and there's an argument for what's the rationale for running. in other words, she's been voted the most admired woman in america three years running. the most admired woman in america when you run for president. you become a politician, again. hillary is the second most

popular in a two-person household. >> the rationale then would be she's a politician. she ran for president, her husband was president. at a certain point when that's in your bolood and you get the kind of poll numbers, you want to cash it in. >> the politician looks at those numbers and say that's why i should run. >> i'm the most admired. >> she's not a risk taker. she ran for senate when her husband was the president in new york state. she ran in new york, not in arkansas where she was the first lady. not in illinois. >> i got to ask. is this a republican, though, looking at the probably strongest democratic candidate and saying, i don't want -- you look at that democratic bench and say i can beat them. >> i would love to see her run. the royalism party next in line. the republicans usually take that bait and they lose. next in line.

moderate guys. they all lost. >> one of the things when you talk about royalty. there is, no, she's number one and there's no number two. i mean -- >> joe biden. how is that? >> you know, he may be -- >> at a vice president, you're right. not a biden movement out there. i don't see ready for biden out there. >> i am personally ready for biden. >> what is your take out of it? what do you think the chances are that she doesn't run? >> i think right now i'd do 50/50. >> 50/50? >> because, if nothing else, do you want to factor in possible her health, his health, loving being a grandmother and then just assessing the rough patch she's been in since she left. she left, ms. pollster, 100% and it's only down. >> i want to say -- i do think that maybe the chances, there is

some room for doubt in a way that i think a lot of us maybe who like covering hillary aren't willing to recognize. there is room to maneuver for her. shed and make it a choice that is different than what we all assume she's going to do. that's human nature, too. there's nothing that is ever a definite. i want to be careful here because i don't think that i'm in a position of saying i don't want jeb to run because i think he's the strongest one. i do look at jeb and see that as not a slam dunk. get in the head of the republican -- >> at least you're an honest progressive because a lot of hillary supporters are pushing jeb for a specific reason. do you want the third bush or the first woman, not a fair fight. >> or the second clinton. >> how do you remember george w. bush versus george clinton? those memories. i always thought the one thing on hillary and i started to discount this based on the moves she made in the last six months. if you asked me about hillary in

2016. i do wonder, she could look at basically, she's late 60s you got maybe ten really vibrant years. i say get to 80 vibrantly for anybody. male or female. >> not discussing hillary's age. >> i'm talking about the age of ronald reagan when he was turning 70. what do you want to do for those ten years. the thing i can see hillary looking at, look at what it was like in the '90s. wa whitewater, you can win if you run, do you want to walk in and have the next ten years of your life be defined by that. >> hillary has never stopped fighting those battles and this is a chance to vindicate the clintons. we're going to redo it and be even better. >> she seems more battle wary than balal ready. this is a woman going back to

the 1990s. i think the clintons, particularly hillary clinton had a lot more in common. see now makes $200,000 a speech. >> 300. >> let's raise it. $300,000 a speech. serious point. how do you run? i think hillary clinton is becoming the mitt romney of 2016. how do you run as accessible and relatable when you make six times the amount of the average woman's annual salary in one speech? >> can the republicans play that card against her? >> she needs another titan to have the clash of the titan one of the midwestern governors that can overtake and some less known nationwide and inspires the grassroots and gets people excited. >> do you think jeb bush is running? >> yes, maybe. >> not necessarily. >> totally. i actually, i'm not as sure about jeb. i'm starting to keep in my head how unsure i can be about jeb and how unsure people can be about hillary. to me, i think she sees no reason not to run.

the mitt romney analogy is good in some way. she has the resume and she should get it. mitt romney is the most qualified, why aren't you voting for me? >> that's not bad. you're making it look like that is a bad thing. >> no, no, no. but a lot more on that parallel, a lot more resistance to mitt than there was, there was no ready for mitt bus. >> when going back to your point about, well, there is a difference between making $300,000 in a speech and giving it to your foundation, which is what she does, not going into her own pocket. >> well, hundreds of millions of dollars, lynn, and people want to know how she makes that money. >> why doesn't she just say. >> let me also do a whole feminist alert here. feminist alert, we keep on talking about the popularity of her husband. is that really how women are supposed to send power? her husband was a great president. >> i would say, look, if you're going to talk about jeb's presidential prospects, you have to, if you're talking about jeb,

you can't talk about jeb's prospects without mentioning his brother was president. you can't talk about hillary clinton without mentioning her husband was. >> the question is not are you ready for a woman, are you ready for that woman? >> i think that's been litigated so long ago and it's done and i think that is where she is battle tested. >> but what are her positions on issues? what is the rationale? between herself and president obama. >> no, she is, she is successfully managed to keep just enough above the fray where she has not had to weigh in any of the -- i've seen quite a few get elected doing it. anyway. >> the paper trail a mile long on her. >> fun topic. something that almost never happens in the obama white house. the panel will rejoin us later. something that never happens happened this week.

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on the to-do list for the white house this week, find a new defense secretary. the fourth one to serve under president obama. nbc white house correspondent kristen welker joins us now from the west lawn of the white house. any idea who it is going to be to replace chuck hagel? >> it is still fluid, steve. but here's what we know so far. the front-runner seems to be jay johnson. this is, of course, someone who has a relationship with president obama. he recently spearheaded the immigration reform policy that mr. obama just announced. but, again, i am told the president hasn't made a decision yet. he wants to make one as soon as possible, though. now, other names that we are hearing, include bob work, he's the current deputy secretary of defense. ash carter, the former deputy secretary of defense and also navy secretary ray mavis. of course, you will recall there is just a big headline about this, steve.

michelle, she took herself out of the running this past week. she had been seen as the frontrunner. she would have been the first woman to hold the job. she cited family concerns when she took her name out of the running, but there are also some reports that she had other reservations, particularly after chuck hagel apparently clashed with the administration. that had been widely reported and, of course, we heard all the conflicting statements. now, the decision to replace hagel, i'm told, was driven by the sense that he was not really right for the job. the president had picked him to wind down the wars in iraq and afghanistan and oversee that effort and, of course, the mission has changed. it is now focused on ramping up the fight against isis. currently about 3,000 u.s. forces serving as advisors in that region, steve. also underscores the sense that president obama's acknowledging that there really need to be some changes to his administration and he is, of course, facing the final two

years of his presidency and he has been widely criticized for not reacting quickly enough to ebola or the isis kriss and some officials here within the administration say hagel was viewed as a defense secretary who was more passive in the face of those crises. so, as president obama tries to determine who his next defense secretary will be, you'll likely see him who he thinks will lead with a strong hand. this comes as republicans are set to take control of congress. that could complicate things. >> of course, we will have you back next week if you're reporting there pans out and jay johnson ends up being the next defense secretary. we will have you back to say who is the next homeland security secretary. it's the musical chairs of politics. thank you, kristen. president obama is reluctant to known to fire anybody, especially members of his cabinet. how long it took him eric shin shecky. this came as after cover ups of mismanagement in the v.a. health

system. disrupt departure moved at a much faster pace, that is a according to behind the scenes account that hagel's discussions about his future began in a series of three meetings that started just a few weeks ago and those sessions apparently didn't go well with politico reporting that after several lackluster, low-energy sessions obama was so unimpressed by his defense secretary that he decided hagel just wasn't the man for the job, according to senior administration officials. cue the press conference that you saw this week. >> let me just say that chuck is and has been a great friend of mine. i've known him, admired him and trusted him for nearly a decade since i was a green behind the ears freshman senator. >> obama heaped lavish praise at that monday press conference but behind the scenes his own aides were telling reporters less kind things about chuck hagel.

vice president biden was stone faced at that. he was upset by the treatment of hagel and upset the treatment he was receiving and hagel clash would susan rice and also tensions with white house chief of staff dennis mcdonough who complained about hagel's inability to control the pentagon brass that extensively works for him. about hagel's slow response. clearly, the white house and the pentagon were not on the same page. but even by the absurd standards of washington, the spectacle this week was something. the very public praise of hagel in the very damming attacks on him all coming from the same white house on the same day. author of behind the scenes story on hagel. glen, thanks for taking a few minutes. look, i try, i think i'm pretty cynical when i look at politics and i'm not surprised when the politician has his arm around somebody one moment and somebody

is stabbing him in the back in the next moment. the sequence of events, the speed with which this happened and obama came out at the press conference. he wasn't just saying nice things. he goes to the kennedy center and born in nebraska, simple man and the white house is out there talking about what an incompetent doof dufs he was. what is the story? >> i think the president does feel personally warm for the guy and he set him up to fail. i think there is a real sense on obama's part that he didn't do right by chuck hagel. look, from the very first, steve, you saw these confirmation hearings where people were checking to see if there was a tranquillizer dart in hagel's neck. he was narcleptic. he really during subsequent congressional hearings and during white house situation room meetings. the guy didn't have any energy. obama picked him to be sort of a low-key guy who is going to

preside over the ramping down of the military and he gets hit with this isis thing. the basic feeling here is that obama has a sense this was a guy he liked personally, but you don't really necessarily pick your friends to do these important jobs. >> so, how did it go down then when you say you have a series of discussions that took place over the last few weeks. who initiated that? when it came to the end of it, did hagel still like obama? did obama still like hagel aor was that all phony? >> i don't think it was that phony. i reported a year ago there were people in the white house, particularly on the national security establishment that regarded hagel as a paper tiger and thought he needed to show the president more to hold his job? frankly, i was shocked that hagel stayed on as long as he did. i think the midterms had a lot to do with it. the president didn't want to change in mid-stream. but he's been really unhappy. that's the subtext here. he has been really unhappy with the national security team and

they really blew the isis thing. a less of frenzy about now and he is very much of the mind right now that things have to change. really, this is the first shoe that will drop. i don't know if there is going to be a greater shakeup, but this story, the story that really underlies the hagual story is this conflict between white house chief of staff, dennis mcdonough and susan rice. hagel ran afoul of that and i think this is the first step in obama trying to clean, clean up that process. i don't know if it's going to result in more personnel changes, but there is a clear sense of dissatisfaction on the president's part. >> what about, the report this week, too, that joe biden, a friend of chuck hagel's was very upset about this. what do you know about that? >> we reported that biden was really upset with the way that hagel was treated personally. biden was the person that brought hagel's name to the president when he was

considering replacements for leon panetta. even though obama himself had a relationship as he discussed in the press conference. it was really biden that made that marriage happen. biden felt, biden just came back from an asia trip and went on when biden was overseas and my reporting was that there was not a lot of satisfaction and, really, you don't have to dig very far. you have to look at his expression during that press conference. he was just staring down at the ground and really looked like he wanted to get out of there as fast as he possibly could. >> sometimes at those events, biden is not that subtle. he whispers something and it all gets caught in the mike. too bad he didn't do that there. great reporting, glenn, if you haven't read his article. check that out. glen thrush, appreciate the time this morning. thank you very much. >> take care. still ahead, president obama could leave a huge environmental legacy and only one thing standing in his way, though. it's not the republican congress. it's next.

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the biggest thing standing between president obama and a bigger presidential legacy may not be republicans in congress. the president enters his final two years in office and looks for ways to rack up achievements by going around congress, setting up a showdown with the supreme court. the court that's led by a 5-4 conservative majority. earlier this month the supreme court agreed to review a key piece of a balmobama's landmark. putting supporters on edge and now, this week, the court has taken up a challenge to the sweeping regulations limiting mercury emissions from power plants that were issued during obama's first term. the environmental protection agency did not take into account the huge financial costs of implementic the new standards. president obama has aggressively used his authority under the clean air act. just one day after the supreme court agreed to review obama's new mercury standards, they

revealed new standards to curb ozone levels. the cumulative impact of obama's new epa rules could be huge. "new york times" writing president obama could leave office with the most aggressive, far-reaching environmental legacy of any occupant of the white house. but that statement comes with a big asterisk. the possibility that the supreme court could upend most of obama's sweeping advances. joining me now from washington, d.c., senior environmental reporter. thank you for taking a few minutes this morning. let's start in terms of what the white house is looking to do here. in an ideal world we'll take the court issue separately in a minute. using the power that they have. what specifically is it they want to do over the next two years? >> this is a golden age right now. the administration is able to do on its own, carve out a legacy

on climate change and more broadly on the environment by bypassing congress. use existing laws, the clean air act which was initially signed by richard nixon and has been really battled tested in courts, including by the supreme court and it's largely held up. and they're trying to run with that. they're saying, look, we've had a lot of battle scars already, excuse me, on this law. so, we're going to try to aggressively interpret that law and go as far as we can. we're seeing that, for example, with the first ever carbon restrictions for power plants. that's going to be regulated under the air act. we're seeing those tougher ozone standards that you mentioned. that mercury rule, which the supreme court is going to be looking at. so, they're taking this existing

law and saying, look, we can't make new law right now, but we're going to stretch this existing law as much as we possibly can. >> now, one of the issues that arises here is if that is the approach they're taking and understandable if congress isn't doing anything, we're always talking in such long term, long term about the effect of the environmental regulation, though. what is going to happen in 10 years, 120 years, 100 years. these regulations will be good as long as obama is president. they'll expire with his presiden presidency? >> yes and no. if you yield the executive authority sword it's easy to be slayed with that sword, too. the next administration could conceivably come in and say, we don't like a lot of what he's doing. here's the thing, though, if this is battle tested in court. if the courts say the administration acted properly in setting these standards, it's

difficult to then come around and try to repeal those because you're supposed to be doing that when you do any kind of standard, either you upgrade a standard or you try to water it down. you're supposed to use the best science. and, so the courts are going to be looking at that, too. you can't go in there and say, i don't want to do this any more and do away with it. everything gets litigated. everything that the current administration is going to be doing is going to get litigated. everything that a future presidency will try to do, perhaps to undermine what this president is doing is going to get litigated. and, so, probably the best thing for what this administration can do is try to finalize these rules and try to have states start to implement them. it's going to get, they're going to get sued and if the courts side with these current rules, with what this administration is trying to do, it does make it difficult for future presidency to undermine that.

however, any time you don't use congress to codify something, then you lose that extra level of protection. case in point, these upcoming u.n. climate talks. the president is putting together what is probably going to be a big, nonbinding agreement in paris next year. the u.s. and china had had a big announcement just the other week about what those two countries are going to be doing domestically to try to cut emissions ahead of these big talks. >> right, it doesn't go through. it doesn't go through the senate. so, a new president comes in in a couple years and says, you know what, i don't like this treaty. you don't have the weight of a senate ratification. that's the game we're playing when president and congress aren't on the same page. thank you for joining us this morning. really appreciate that. >> thank you. we already talked this morning about one prediction that hillary clinton is unlikely to run for president. still ahead, some hurdles she could face if she runs.

why that decision not to run may be on her mind. we'll bring out the big board and show you why. interesting numbers. stay with with us. to stretch around the earth 230 times. each brita filter can replace 300 of those. clean. clear. brita water. nothing is better. get ready foat the volkswagen engineered holidsign-then-drive event. right now, for practically just your signature, you could drive home for the holidays in a new volkswagen. like the sporty, advanced new jetta and the precisely engineered passat tdi. ah, the gift of clean diesel. for the new volkswagen on your list this year, just about all you need, is a pen. festive, isn't it? hurry into the sign- then-drive event and get a five-hundred- dollar black friday bonus on select new volkswagen models. black friday bonus offer ends december 1st.

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drink more brita water. clean, refreshing, brita. holiday weekend brings the news that mario cuomo has spent his thanksgiving in the hospital. doctors have been treating the 82-year-old for a heart condition. he's apparently been in the hospital since just a few days after the election. having appeared at his son's andrew re-election party back on election day. andrew cuomo says the former governor is in good spirits. mario cuomo last served as governor of new york in 1994. giant in american politics in the 1980s delivering a speech at the 1984 democratic national convention and polls showing him the overwhelming favorite entering the 1992 presidential race only to leave idling on the tarmac on the filing deadline.

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we mentioned earlier in the show that charlie cook one of the most respected political analysts out there made a little news last night saying he thinks hillary clinton in his own estimation has only a 25% chance of running for election in 2015. we all have been treating hillary clinton as the clear, overwhelming frontrunner and all sorts of things like that. it did raise the question, what are her numbers like and how d would it it factor into any decision in running for president. interesting trajectories that would take into account. a more complicated story about hillary clinton. first i want to so you this. her favorable and unfavorable opinion. favorable opinion and unfavorable opinion and goes

back to 2000 and stretch that back into the '90s and simplify from 2000 on. she gets elected to the senate in 2000. for all of that decade. new york senator in new york and potential presidential candidate and the numbers are basically about the same. she is polarizing. a lot of people who really like her and a lot of people who really don't like her. what jumps out to you on here? look at that. suddenly those lines separate. the favorable score soars and stays up there and sudden the unfavorable score plummets and stays down there. look exactly where that is. in 2008. specifically, that's the spring of 2008. that's april 2008. that's when it became clear she was not the democratic nominee for president in 2008 and president obama was going to be. do you know what happened at that exact moment republicans, because they assumed hillary clinton had continued to attack her and her husband nonstop had kept her numbers right there, very polarized.

they stopped. she was no long arthreat to them. the threat to them particularly was barack obama. republicans trained all of their fire rhetorically on barack obama and turned the clintons in their own telling into the quote/unquote good democrats. how many republicans think about this. how many republicans did you hear in the four, six years in 2008 think about it's too bad bill clinton hadn't learned. her appeal to his working class voters and how come barack obama doesn't do that. you heard that rhetoric from republicans. they basically laid off the clintons and that's the result. you can see her poll numbers just soared. it was in that time that the idea of hillary clinton being this overwhelming 2016 candidate took hold. you can see, 64, 31. that was her favorable rating october 2010. then after the 2012 election, republicans basically woke up and realized, look what we created here. look what we contributed to. we contributed to those poll

numbers. that 64-30 and hillary will be our worst nightmare in 2013. they stopped treating her as an ally and the good democrat and they started treating her as just another democrat. you can see, think of all these headlines you've seen for the last year or so. what has that done? take a look. this is new polling. this is qinnipiac. it's not terrible. you can get elected president but she has fallen far, far from where she was in those six years or so, five or six years or so after the 2008 election. she's falling down to earth here. this is very much where she was before that moment in 2008. so, now, when you pair her with potential republican opponents in 2016, well, she's ahead of jeb bush by five. that's not bad. competitive race. you would rather be 46 than 41. look at the other ones. rand paul.

46-41. look at this one, though, against chris christie, dead even. 43-42. the whole idea of hillary clinton being the overwhelming favorite and the democrat that president obama may not be as popular as he used to be. democrats are thinking we have hillary clinton and the numbers are telling us she certainly could win. she could be a well-funded candidate and a lot of the country that really likes her, but those old negatives. the negatives that were there for all those years before 2008. the negatives that were there for all those years in the 1990s, thaer they're back and making her as polarizing now as she was was back then. those years in 2008 were an aberration. it does raise a question for democrats who for the last few years look at the numbers say and this is the best bet in 2016. the best thing she has going for her when you talk about 2016 right now is this. pair her, or match her up against any of the other democrats who are mentioned as potential candidates and, my

goodness, it isn't even close. if you think back to 2008 when we said hillary clinton was the favorite over barack obama. it wasn't 57-13 hillary over obama. it was like 55 to 40 or something. it was much closer. so, she is still in much better shape within her party than basically any candidate in either party has been at this point in the process in modern history. she is still overwhelming favorite the democratic side if she does decide to run. the thing that maybe she has to think about and democrats have to think about are the other numbers we showed you. the hillary clinton of 2009, 20 2010, 2011, 2012 who even some republicans liked that had that favorable score. that hillary clinton is basically gone. you have that pre-2008 hillary clinton back right now when it comes to polling. she could win the general election in 2013 and she could lose it. anyway, speaking of the presidency. as the bully pulpit not so bully any more? that and another hour of news and politics straight ahead.

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the president's response to ferguson. all right. thanks for staying with us on a busy sunday morning. we have a lot to cover this morning, including, i'm looking forward to this. a feisty, friendly, trash talk diagnose bait over which city should host the 2016 democratic national convention. three luminaries from the three finalist cities will duke it out. the first official debate of 2016. also look at the most surprising name to throw her hat into the republican 2016 field. that pronoun is your hint. we begin this hour with the morning's biggest story. that is the resignation of officer darren wilson. the now former ferguson missouri police officer wrote in his

resignation laetter, it was my hope to continue police work. but the safety of the other police officers and the community are of paramount importance to me. it is my hope that my resignation will allow the community to heal. he has been on paid admin stratdive leave since he shot unarmed teen michael brown back in august. the first person and also the most prominent person to speak out after the announcement was president obama. starting only minutes after the st. louis county prosecutor wrapped up his own press conference. >> first and foremost, we are a nation built on the rule of law. and, so, we need to accept that this decision was the grand jury's to make. we needs to recognize that the situation in ferguson speaks to the broader challenges that we still face as a nation. the fact is in too many parts of this country, a deep distrust exists between law enforcement and communities of color. >> reaction to the president's

speech was mixed. obama's comments were in his words, "offered with all the energy of a man taking items off a to-do list." obama had a difficult needle to thread on monday. he was speaking as violence was beginning to take over at the largely peaceful protests on the streets of ferguson. the next day, he elaborated on his thoughts with a speech in chicago. >> frustrations that we've seen are not just about a particular incident. they have deep roots in many communities of color who have a sense that our laws are not always being enforced uniformally or fairly. the key now is for us to lift up the best practices and work city by city, state by state, county by county all across this country because the problem is not just a ferguson problem, it is an american problem. and we've got to make sure that we are actually bringing about

change. and despite seeming more passionate on tuesday, president obama's overall tone stood in contrast with some previous statements he made on race, including harvard professor henry lewis gates was arrested after entering his own home back in 2009 or george zimmerman killed trayvon martin in sanford, florida, back in 2012. >> when i think about this boy, i think about my own kids. i think every parent in america should be able to understand why it is absolutely imperative that we investigate every aspect of this. and that everybody pulls together. my main message is to the parents of trayvon martin. if i had a son, he'd look like

trayvon. and i think they are right to expect that all of us, as americans, are going to take this with the seriousness it deserves. >> those reflections on race generated a huge backlash on the right with the backlash that may have impacted obama statements this week. one of the biggest powers of the president is the power of the pulpit. national dialogue and debate and get other people talking about it. in this era of hyperpartisanship seems difficult, if not impossible for the president to start a true national conversation without stoking a high-profile heated partisan debate. here to discuss the president in ferguson, we have rashad robinson and director of color of change and back at the the table with us, ana marie cox. rashad, let me start with you.

it was a national moment this week. that announcement. i saw the ratings here. just look at how many people were watching tv that night. it was crazy. not just this channel, but everybody. everybody was watching what was happening in the streets afterwards whether it was in ferguson or nationally and into that steps the president and delivers messages we just showed there. what did you make of the role he played this week? >> i think it was disappointing for many people. this backdrop of people protesting and people coming out and not a lot of energy and people were, i think, looking for some sort of direction. the president even the next day talked about what should be happening that local and the state level. well, he's the president, he's in charge of the federal government. and there are things that the federal government can do. >> what specifically? what did you want to hear? >> i wanted to hear, what are the next steps? we have been talking about this for several months now. delivered petitions with a host of things that can be done to incents have good policing

around this country. he can use his bully pupplpit. now we're married to obama and he gets out there and he doesn't actually give us a clear direction of where we're heading next. people have been protesting for over 100 days. they have put this issue on the national debate and made this a national conversation. you know, over and over again we hear these stories and nothing seems to be done. something is different about this ferguson moment. this is part of his legacy. sort of what does he do in this moment of crisis where the country is looking for our first black president to say something about the fact that over and over again young black men are being killed by police. and there is no accountability. nothing is being done and justice is not being served. he is the first black president. he does have a responsibility. >> why do you, what do you think is holding him back? >> well, i do think that, you know, we have seen the president at certain times reluctant to

sort of take that next step in speaking about race. i think you were absolutely right to say that, you know, he's going to be attacked for it. he is going to be pushed back and he has two years left of his presidency. he has no more elections to run. you know, he is the president of the united states. he has the attorney general and he has a justice department. a host of things he can do and a host of things he can speak out on and take some heat around. but at the end of the day, people are taking over the streets in a way that we've never seen before. they are stopping people from shopping and stopping people from traveling. this new generation of young activists are making their voices heard. as we look back at sort of the anniversary of the voting rights act and last year the anniversary of the civil rights act. it was the protesters who put it on the table. and it was the protesters that forced the president to have to do something. obama's legacy will be, does he stand up and do something? we just saw some take executive action on immigration. what is the executive action

going to be on this? >> what do you make of it, lynn? >> right now i make of it his response isn't something that people can see as a short term gain. meaning he created my brother's keeper, which i'm sure you know about. an organization that was actually built on some other programs out there, including becoming a man in chicago, but that, that spawned its own bureaucracy, which i'm sure you're familiar with. >> very. >> so when in default, the obama administration goes out and they create this quasi public corporation and you go to the private sector and it's not transparent and you can't really know what's going on. they raise $200 million to do programs and studies. and they expanded their reach after ferguson and then women of color got upset because why aren't we included in it in and they're doing studies. >> it's also a bank shot. a bank shot into the problem of a police brutality and problems

between the races. it's sort of saying, it's doing this thing, which he takes on the role of calling on both sides. he calls on both sides and says trust between police and communities of color. when, really, the moment that we're seeing is not about distrust between but specific act or violence upon a community. and the death of tamir rice that happened just days before and the video of two cops pulling up to a playground in cleveland, is it. shooting a kid within two seconds of arriving. that poor kid died on the ground and that is something that happened in the context of all of this. people are out there protesting in ferguson, we have to say over and over again. this is not about ferguson. it is a problem of violence. >> right, i think it gets, i think it gets tricky from the white house's standpoint, i can imagine. trying to decide.

it's always tricky to decide what the president should be saying. you say this is not about ferguson. but a lot of people watching this nationally are going to say, if the president comes out and makes some of the statements that you're talking about, they would look at that and say he's basically saying this grand jury screwed up. this grand jury didn't do its job right. he is challenging and i don't know that -- >> they're saying already with the justice department independent probes. >> if the justice department -- >> but they aren't pursuing their own investigation. they are ready. i don't want to use the word second guessing everybody. i don't know the right word, but the federal government is already imposed its investigation over the local one. that makes the point you're making. >> but what we can say is that in this situation, some things were not handled correctly. right? that young man's body was laid out in the street for four hours. you know, and then we see the tamir rice situation and eric gardner in new york and trayvon martin and the way the sanford police botched that case.

we continue to see those moments over and over again and the president gets out and talks about how we want to do things at the local level and state level when this is a federal issue. and the relying on local governments and state governments to solve civil rights issues has never helped black people. it is not the way that civil rights issues have moved. >> here's the question i would ask, though. i feel like this white house, the gates things in 2009 or 2010 when that was. >> july 2009. >> i think that was because, that was a press conference that was called to talk about health care. and he took a question at the end of it. >> it was my question. >> there we go. so, that was, you know that was something that they were, they didn't anticipate what they would -- >> they didn't anticipate the answer. they anticipated the question. >> when he spoke, he didn't anticipate that that was going to be. he thought when he walked off the stage that day that health care was the thing that everybody was going to be talking about.

>> i just remember, i was actually happened to be there and i remember that he seemed, it was an unusually, you know, vehement remark from him. much like the trayvon martin thing was something we didn't see from him. came from a place that resignated him. but people on the left were like, okay, he feels, he speaks, he bleeds. this is someone who we're so used to taking the office of the president and contrary to what kelly had to say, he takes it very seriously and very aware of his place in history. he hardly ever lets himself be a person in that office. so, these instance where we see him react, it is always amazing to see that that is there. here he is acting like a president. i understand that constrains. him. i understand that. but that was so remarkable and heart breaking to see that alongside the images of ferguson burning and he was not reacting to those same images. >> speeches are fine, but he

also has the ability in the next two years to push his justice department to incent vise good policing. that is better than any speech. >> first of all, we need a new attorney general, but that's something else to look for. thanks for joining us this morning. ana marie and lynn, you'll be back. three politicians will duke it out over which of their home towns should host the next democratic convention. the next debate will be heated. stay tuned. downloads, 45 hours of streaming music, and 6 hours of video playing. (singing) and five golden rings! ha, i see what you did... (singing) four calling birds...three french hens ...(the guys starts to fizzle out) two... turtle...doves... i really went for it there ya you did ... you really, really did now get 3 gigs of data on one line for $65 a month. switch to at&t, buy a new smartphone and get $150 credit per line.

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rest. you've probably heard this before, ohio is volted for the winning candidate in every presidential candidate in 1960 as swing states go, it is a very swingy swing state and wasn't a surprise when the rnc announced

in july that the city of cleveland would host the national republican convention in 2016. the possibility of having both major party conventions in the same state, that's not that surprising either. this week the dnc named columbus as one of its three finalists to host in 2016. but it also named the two other finalists to host that democratic convention and they are brooklyn, new york, and philadelphia. and landing a political convention in your city is a very big deal. it means millions of dollars for the local economy, plenty of national exposure, a big ego boost for the residents and we can't blame former philadelphia mayor and governor of pennsylvania ed rendell for highlighting every new york's worst nightmare in hopes of bringing the convention to is the city of brotherly love and keeping it away from brooklyn. according to "new york post" the articles about big apple, including one that focused on the city's bed bugs. call it the first negative attack of the first official campaign of 2016. the campaign to play host to the democratic convention. and consider this, the first

official debate. that's what we're going to do right here. major political leaders from each of those three finalist cities here with us now to tell us what's so good about their cities and why their party should stay as far away as possible from the others. let's introduce them. we have ed rendell, with us now continuing his fight for the city of philadelphia and also have his opponents, advocates for the two other cities vying for the convention for columbus, ohio, sharon brown and promoting brooklyn jeffries. gentlemen, i'll quickly give you the ground rules here. three rounds and i'll stop clock and 35 seconds in each round. the first round is positive campaigning. i just want you in 35 seconds to make the positive case for your city. governor renndell. philadelphia, the positive case. go. >> in 2000 we ran what is regarded as the best convention in the past 25 years when we had had the republicans where the city where the nation was born.

we made history and we'll make history, again, by nominating the first woman for president of the united states. >> stop, that was much quicker. we picked up some time there, thank you very much. congressman jeffries, brooklyn. the case for brooklyn in 35 seconds. begin. >> we've given the world a jackie robinson, coney island, junior cheesecake and jay-z and chuck schumer. diversity is the great strength of the democratic party. diversity is the great strength of this country. no better platform to communicate that to the country in the context of a presidential campaign than in brooklyn, new york. we're ready, willing and able to put on the best convention that this country has ever seen. >> columbus, ohio. senator sharon brown, you're on the clock. >> yes. set the stage. summer of 2016, republicans in cleveland. their nominee speaks. you have to love this at progressive field, to 40,000,

maybe 50,000 people. two weeks later the democrats come to columbus and go to ohio stadium. 100, 110,000 enthusiastic people trump any or blunt any advantage that republicans might have gotten from going to cleveland. columbus is a fast growing city, largest growing city in ohio and walking neighborhoods and all the convention is within walking distance. the difference is people really want it in columbus. >> time. all right, senator brown, that concludes the positive campaigning around and now we move to what we're calling the trash talking round and this has inspired ed rendell by your fear of bed bugs. 35 second, you made the case for your city and now you want to tell people who are making this decision why they should stay the heck away from the other cities. ed rendell, 35 second. why should they stay away from columbus and new york? >> columbus is a great town with a great mayor and their most

famous is it takes an hour and a half to and the new york state department of health said don't ride the subways in august, they put out a warning because of excessive heat. how's that. >> there's some negativety. congressman jeffries, the case against philadelphia, the case against columbus. you have 35 seconds, sir. go. >> columbus is a great city, but, as you indicated, the republicans are going to hold their convention in ohio. we have a great mass transportation system and great cultural institutions and people of philadelphia and governor rendell understand that was every week the people of philadelphia get on amtrak to come to new york city. we want to broaden that and make sure the entire country gets that wonderful opportunity and our mayor has put together tremendous host committee and we're prepared to host people from all over this country with the splendor that we have to

offer our wonderful diversity. >> veering away from the trash talk. the case against philadelphia and brooklyn. go. >> i just can't be particularly negative. as a progressive, i won in a swing state twice by talking about values and my state and what we do and, you know, let them attack each other. but, the fact is, people in columbus really want this. i know the politicians like governor rendell and congressman jeffries, they want this. and the business elite want this. but ethel and fred in south philly, they don't care about this convention. in columbus, everybody is on board. republicans, democrats. people really want this convention. they know it will be the first time in american history when the same state and two different cities get the convention. >> this brings us to our final round. the lightning round and this is a very short answer here and it is the best thing about my city is -- ed rendell, the best thing

about philadelphia is what? >> we have a great mayor in mike nutter who has a high regard for the groundhog and would never heard the groundhog. >> congressman jeffries, the best thing about brooklyn is what? >> 100 different languages spoken in brooklyn and that doesn't include our official language because people from all over the world come to brooklyn to pursue the american dream. to make it in america and that's why it will be the best place to host the democratic national convention. >> the best thing about columbus. >> people who have never been to columbus every time they come on the first visit they go away talking about what a great city this is. that will happen for thousands of delegates when democrats in the summer of 2016 pick columbus. >> all right. that concludes the first debate of the 2016 cycle. senator brown, congressman jeffries, thank you for making the case as best you could. thank you for keeping it as clean as possible, we appreciate that. up next, the woman not named hillary who is thinking about running for president.

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so, a few weeks ago we launched a series to look closely at each potential presidential candidate as they emerge for 2016, when we did that, we didn't think this name would come up. carly fiorina. but according to "washington post" this week, the former hewlett-packard ceo is now considering entering the 2016 republican field. "post" said she talked to potential donors and recruited campaign staffers and even planned trips to iowa and new hampshire and hinted at a possible run on "meet the press." >> how serious are you about running for president? >> well, that will be something i consider at the right time. well, when people ask you over and over again, you have to pause and reflect. i have to pause and reflect at the right time. >> that means something you're pondering. you're going to go to iowa soon. >> you have to ponder when people keep asking. >> fiorina seems like a long

shot, she has only run for office once before back in 2010 when she challenged barbara boxer who lost by ten points. still owes vendors $500,000 from that campaign. could her business background being the first female ceo of a fortune 500 company make her appealing on the national stage especially when the economy is on the minds of voters. a recent trip to west des moines with conservatives out there commending her on her ability to articulate a positive, conservative vision. is carly fiorina serious about running for president or is she just taking advantage of a moment when anyone can say they're thinking about running and get all the free publicity that comes with that. joining us now from washington, so, steven, you're our eyes and ears on the right. i love having you on to talk about the 2016 field as it takes

shape. you know carly fiorina. i gave the cynical interpretation of this and we see candidacies or fake candidacies like this every four years in both parties. somebody is thinking about it and they don't get the attention and they don't really run. how serious is she about running for president? >> she is pretty serious. i know her and talked to her about it and i think she wants to run. if she can raise the money, she's in the field. look, a great story to tell. number one, you're right, not much political experience. she did run for the senate in california and the fact that she's not a professional politician, i think in this kind of political is an asset for her, not a liability. >> even the fact that she ran and she lost. i know it's california, but at the same time, 2010 was a grit republican year. she had tons of money behind her and it wasn't that close of a race. still a double-digit loss. >> yeah, although she kind of beat expectations, though. california is a very tough state for republicans. look, i would make the case for a couple ways. one is she has a great story,

steve. i mean, she started out as a secretary and she worked herself up to being the ceo of hewlett-packard. that's a big deal. that's a great kind of story. i would make a couple other points about her. most importantly, she has sex appeal, with no pun intended. but republicans need a woman on that stage. steve, we have been talking about a dozen candidates who may run for president on the republican side. she's one of the very few women that are pondering this and i would say this as a republican one of the things i would like as carly fiorina. the likely democratic candidate is going to be a woman. but carly fiorina unlike hillary clinton is likable. >> so, that's interesting. you think with hillary clinton taking shape, and again, we talked earlier in the show, charlie cook is out there saying he didn't think she is going to run. let's say hillary clinton is running. how much would that factor into the decision makers in the republican party that idea of, i mean, we saw this, the decision, i think back to that decision to

put palin on the ticket in '08 and said i need to do something and that's what he came up with. >> i think, i'm going to make a prediction that i think the republicans will have a woman on the ticket. might not be carly fiorina at the top. but she's being talked about as sort of the number one vice presidential candidate. so, yeah, republicans do want to put a woman on the ticket and i would simply make the point, you know, if you're going to have 12 guys on the stage, steve. it's important for republicans to have at least one or two women on the stage. i always said as a republican the thing that scares liberals the most is a black republican. but second most is a woman republican who is articululate and attractive. >> too syndical to suggest that she'd run for president to run for vice president. get the exposure. >> steve, that happens all the time. i mean, so, yeah, half of the republican candidates who are going to be running for

president are actually running for vice president. you know, as you know, when we pick a vice presidential candidate on the democrat or republican side, you know, the vast majority of the time it's one of the people who ran for the top of the ticket. so, carly would be, i think, someone who would certainly be considered as a vp candidate. again, do people want professional politicians right now? after the last election, i'm not sure they do. >> yeah, i think it's a new rule of politics. if the question begins, is it too cynical to suggest, the answer is no. so, anyways, steve moore, appreciate the time. appreciate you joining us this morning. >> take care. still ahead, how many former presidents can you name? we'll see how you stack up a very interesting serving. we'll tell you about. (vo) nourished.

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friday to reinstate the former running back. as kristen welker reports for us this morning new questions about rice's future and new scrutiny of roger goodell. >> reporter: as the ravens prepare to take the field later today, fresh reaction from baltimore fans after an arbitrator reinstated ray rice, who's currently without an nfl team. >> i believe that everyone should be given a second chance. >> it was awful. he could have killed her. >> i'm glad he's back. i hope he gets picked up by a good team. >> reporter: in an exclusive interview with matt lauer. nfl commissioner roger goodell initially suspended rice for two games and then suspended him indefini indefinitely. goodell said rice was ambiguous in their original meeting. >> was ray ambiguous? >> not in any way. i feel like if they wanted to know more detail, they would have asked. but there were no further

questions. it's been consistent with everything that he's been saying since february. >> so, when the commissioner of the nfl, roger goodell, says ray was ambiguous and a starkly different sequence of events, is the commissioner lying? >> i can't say he's telling the truth. you know. i know for a fact that he told, that ray told the honest truth. that he's been telling from february. >> and you think the league and the commissioner covered their butts? >> i think they did what they have to do for themselves. >> reporter: but she was mostly complimentary of goodell. still a ruling is a blow to the nfl commissioner who is facing renewed calls to step down. >> if he was head of a public company, he would probably be fired but, of course, he's running the nfl, which makes a ton of money. i don't think he is going anywhere any time soon. >> that was nbc's kristen welker

reporting. in a statement he thanked his wife and judge saying i made an inexcusable mistake and a proper appeals process in place to address this issue. meanwhile, spokesperson for the nfl said respect the decision and added he should be eligible to play should he sign a new contract with a team. still ahead, the biggest news this week to affect our pastry plate. up next, proof that we probably all need a u.s. history lesson. sensitive bladder? never miss a chance to dance... introducing a revolution in bladder leak protection. new always discreet. up to 40% thinner, for superior comfort. absorbs 2 times more than you may need. for dance-all-you-want protection. no wonder more women already prefer new always discreet pads over poise. new always discreet. now bladder leaks can feel like no big deal. because hey, pee happens. visit alwaysdiscreet.com for coupons and your free sample.

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sign-then-drive event. for practically just your signature, you could drive home for the holidays in a german-engineered volkswagen. like the sporty, advanced new jetta... and the 2015 motor trend car of the year all-new golf. if you're wishing for a new volkswagen this season... just about all you need is a finely tuned... pen. hurry into the sign-then- drive event and get a five-hundred- dollar black friday bonus on select new volkswagen models. black friday bonus offer ends december 1st. >> so i'm going to give you one minute to name as many presidents as you can. ready, go. >> washington, adams, jefferson, roosevelt. >> roosevelt, teddy, franklin. >> truman. george w. bush. george w. bush sr. >> george washington, thomas jefferson, benjamin franklin. i don't know. >> william howard taft.

>> kennedy. roosevelt. >> george w. bush. obama. >> oh, my gosh. drawing a blank. so, how would you do if we gave you that challenge? or how would you do if you were given that challenge by a team of researchers. interesting research that is part of a 40-year study that looks at the question how forgettable are u.s. presidents? if you ask people to name president, always a few they're going to give you. whoever is in office right now. but there have been 44 presidents in american history. the question is, how many of them do people actually remember? and how do those memories evolve over time? so this study what he did this week. we can show you the results from it. this will not make much sense. three or four different things going on. this is the overall results. we'll tell you how they did this study. we'll zoom in and look at interesting stuff. starting in 1974 and again in

1991 and again this year, the people doing this study took a group of college students, gave them a piece of paper and said, can you write down all of the presidents of the united states. and then they looked at what percent could identify george washington. what percent could and they looked for changes over time what that tells us about our collective memory of our heads of state. the most important people in this country. take a closer look here and i'll show you what i'm talking about. so, george washington. first president. in 1974 the first year he did this, 100%. 100% still in '91 and did it in 2009. close to 100%. numbers from 2014 we're not throwing in here. but you can see george washington, everybody always knows george washington. abraham lincoln pretty much the same. 92, 94. no matter when you ask, people will get it. in 2009, everybody knew barack

obama and everybody knew, a few were starting to forget george bush senior at that point 20 years since he left office. still a very high recall, but you can see public memory starting to fade a little bit. so, we can look a little bit closer how this works. because dramatic examples here. look at linden john pin 1974, the first year they did it. he left office five years earlier. whole country still knew who he was. 17 years later, still a lot of people knew, but slippage, 71% and look at this, 20 years after that, down to 42%. one of the things people do in this study or finding is that someone like lyndon johnson who is a giant of political history in so many ways. the trend suggests when you go out 20, 30, 40 years from now, under 20% of the country who will know who lyndon johnson is. see the same things that are happening with fairly well-known

presidents. harry truman 71% back in '74. clear, dramatic slippage. look at gerald ford. in 2009, look at that, he's gone from 100 in 1974 to fewer than half the country even being able to identify him. the man on the street thing we just showed you. one person called him herald ford. i'm not sure we give him credit for that. sometimes people learn more about presidents. they become more remembered as time goes by. john adams, the second president, very good example of this. he had fallen to 68% in 1991. by 2009 he jumped to 81%. what would have happened for a guy that was dead for 150 years, what happened to revive his memory? well, here it is. one of these is john adams and one of these is the actor and remember the whole hbo mini series about john adams and the

best-selling book about john adams. a historian in a movie in hollywood basically revived his memory and more people suddenly knew who he was. this gets to the ultimate question of who are our most forgotten presidents? who are the least remembered presidents. there are three of them. the most recent time this survey was taken. franklin pierce, chester arthur, warren harding. only about 10% are ever able to name any of these three. you would say these are our three most forgettable presidents. not sure how you would do. maybe give yourself a test. take 15 minutes, take a piece of paper and write down as many presidents as you can. look for this research online and see how you stack up. see how many you can remember. still ahead, the obama administration has weighed in about our pastry plate. those details are next.

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so there is this thing in new york city, a rule by mike bloomberg, you go to a place that serves food and you see the item and place and calorie count. the number of calories in the item. the idea was to dissuade people from eating unhealthy and make people more conscious. i personally trained myself to never look at the calorie count. i can look at the menu without seeing calories. i figure everything is going to kill me, i don't want to know about it. an associate professor at john hopkins show 30% of the new york consumers notice that calorie information, probably like me. will the same be true for all americans? we'll about to find out because on tuesday the food and drug administration announced all chain restaurants with more than 20 locations and vending machine haves to list calorie information. the rules are in compliance with the affordable care act that passed in 2010. for those that do look at the

calorie counts, it seems to work. researchers found there was a 6% reduction in calories per transaction when starbucks began posting calories in new york city and it was largely making different food choices, not drink choices so is calorie listing a good thing? are there better ways to get people to think about eating healthy? i want to know what the panel thinks but first i want to point out auditions to the normal pastry plate. you see this every week. take a look, we went and decided let's compile with the rules and you can see 280 calories on this puppy here. this is the driest blandest looking thing and 280 -- see why i don't look. this is delicious. there is only 470 calories. it seems excessive for that. joined back by our panel and this is -- we've been living with this in new york city for a long time. we'll all have to live with it.

what do you think? >> it makes eatg joyless. >> you're all about joy today. >> i am all about joy. [ laughter ] >> 'tis the season. i remember going to yankee stadium on opening day and i was pregnant. they had the calorie counts and over here it said pulled pork barbecue over 1,000 and i said i want that one because -- that tells you something, too. restaurants are doing the best they can but they can't get it right. if you want extra cheese, that's not reflected and mayo on the side, that's not reflected. educating consumers is great but the regulation rubbed people the wrong way because it put restriction -- >> i always wondered how much people -- my attitude is i know if i had to put a healthy, unhealthy list up, i know if i pick the boston cream donut, it's on the unhealthy side. it's only 310. >> let's be frank.

there is an obesity epidemic. 300,000 people a year die of obesity related diseases, which is more than ebola and we got very, very excited about anything we could do to stop that, right? the people gaining weight in america are not people sitting around this table. i mean, you know, present company we may be watching our weight but the obesity epidemic is among the poor and people that may not be looking at the calorie count. this is a very long way around to get at the obesity epidemic. i'm in favor of informed consumer, but i'm not sure this is the way. >> i mean -- >> even -- >> why -- >> this is why stop at calories? there is so much more in food that matters. >> hold on, you know, this is and maybe we'll get to it if it turns into a political issue for what is being said, choice informed, what is the right size of it. maybe you'll make a smaller donut but there is nothing wrong with this.

it's hard to take any issue. i had in an earlier segment that 470 -- >> you had the -- okay. lemon cake with frosting. >> i haven't done my five miles today and i didn't do it yesterday and oh, the five mile bank, i only took a piece of it. i didn't know the number. i'm horrified at what it is because i had to go for the big thing but if you have cravings, now, maybe this will help people that watch this stuff, anyway and i know that obesity is a problem but i don't see the downside that some of the trade industries are arguing about. >> no, no, no, i had my bites, i'm done. >> it turns into this horrible political thing left and right. >> no, no, no i'm curious as consumers, too, we have this plate. now that you see the numbers, the 470, 470 surprises me. if i had to say at the beginning what is the best here, this bone

dry desert dry that's definitely the healthiest. >> it does page a difference. >> i would guess that's 300 and said this boston cream thing is the worst. i assumed the cream in there clogs your arteries or whatever. >> it's vanilla pudding. >> i didn't know much about cooking. >> we know about donut eating. if people go into starbucks aren't freaked out by the prices, i don't think they will be freaked out by the calorie counts and people, this is a simple pleasure to some folks. everybody can afford a luxury caviar and champagne. i like the more movement in classes. i do like education saying that kids have to have gym more times a week and everything. all these initiatives really haven't led to helping this obesity epidemic. i think inviting people to walk around in pants that no longer snap, zipper or button may be a bigger issue. >> that's the way to do it. >> this is a bad example we got a plate of donuts.

intuitively you kind of know, i may not know the exact count of the bison burger with bacon and cheese. >> it's more educated -- >> let's all do it. >> eat your heart out if you want. i want to thank my panel for joining us this morning. up next is mhp and we'll be back next saturday, sunday. thanks for staying with us. theraflu severe cold doesn't treat chest congestion. really? new alka-seltzer plus day powder rushes relief to your worst cold symptoms plus chest congestion. oh, what a relief it is. here we go!

 (vo)rescued.ed.

protected. given new hope. during the subaru "share the love" event, subaru owners feel it, too. because when you take home a new subaru, we donate 250 dollars to helping those in need. we'll have given 50 million dollars over seven years. love. it's what makes a subaru, a subaru. this morning my question, will ray rice play in the nfl again? plus, the new film "she's beautiful when she's angry" and why fdr moved thanksgiving. but first, why we can't feel black men's pain. good morning i'm melissa