tv Hardball With Chris Matthews MSNBC December 2, 2014 4:00pm-5:01pm PST
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it doesn't solve nearly all the problems but, like he said, it's the beginning. and some concrete beginning steps gives me hope. we need specific, real steps because this is a real problem. thanks for watching. i'm al sharpton. "hardball" starts right now. ferguson, it's not about geography. it's about history. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. ferguson, it's now a name in the american dictionary like dallas is to many of my generation, the word is explosive, tragic, and big in our imaginations that stirs us in a way no one likes to be stirred but for better or worse it's a specter that stands
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before us and demands a reckoning. blacks and a big chunk of white america believes what went down in ferguson the is not something they can approve. and so we asked the question tonight of an extremely distinguished panel what is ferguson? what does it say to you personally? and if you see it as a problem, what is that problem and what can we do in the near term to fix that problem? charles ramsey is police commercialer, mayor of boston, rendell was the city's district attorney. eugene robinson is the pull iit prize winning columnist and editor of "the washington post." commissioner ramsey, what is ferguson to you and what needs to be done? let's start with what it is. >> well, i mean, it's symptom attic of a much larger problem that, unfortunately, exists between police and members of certain communities, primarily minority communities, communities of color, african-american communities. also, it also highlight ed a ga
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between police and young people. so it's a combination of a lot of different factors. >> let me go to gene on this. it's going to go in the dictionary, something people will be talking about weeks, months, years. >> you know, what i think it may come to stand for is a question whether we have two justice systems in this country. wung for young, black men, and one for everybody else. and, you know, we've had the string of these incidents, these killings, trayvon martin and you go back and just two more recent ly, and it has a numbing effect. it happens, it happens, it happens, and it finally crystallized, i think, in ferguson for a lot of people. the question of young black men and do they get a fair shake from justice in this country. >> we both agree on that. i want to go to mayor walsh. up there in boston, how does this hit you up there personally as mayor? >> i think the question goes a little deep er as well. it goes into inequity around the
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country and we have to deal with those issues as well. i know that when we were waiting for the grand jury to come down with their finding, we did a loft work reaching out to clergy and community members, the naacp and the urban league, reaching out to the young people in our city. this is a major problem around our country and it it's a problem that has to be addressed. we're having conversations and will continue to have more around race in boston . sometimes people don't want to have that conversation. it's time that we have the conversation and what ferguson has done, not so much in boston. we're planning on having that conversation but really puts a spotlight on what are the problems in our country, whether it's the penal system that's treating people injustly or policing around the country. we need to have those conversations. >> governor rendell? >> well, i think it highlights the need for us to get back to the concept of community policing. where poet lease become a part of the community, where we have beat cops that walk the streets and get to know their constituents and get to know who the kids are and where those
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kids live and who their parents are. we need a police force that's well trained, policemen that are trained to respond to different con ttingencies contingencies, when a football coach preps his game, they put in different scenarios and they role play. we need more training like that so police are adept at situations like this. look, chris, regardless of whether you think this officer violated the law and should have been arrested, clearly the result is a result that should never have happened. there was absolutely no need for this man to be shot in the head and killed. there's much better ways to resolve this and training, more are recruitment of minority officers, more contact between police and the community. it's not a coincidence that president obama asked chief ramsey to co-chair this task force. chief ramsey and in philadelphia has been the hallmark of that type of community policing, that
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type of building bonds and bridges between the community and police, it can be done. >> commissioner ramsey, we're very tough on teachers, a lot of people are, and they take teachers especially in tough neighborhoods where there's not a lot of parental attention to the schoolwork, not a lot of good food in the morning, a good breakfast to start the day with. there's a lot of noise in the house and distraction. tough neighborhoods, hardly anybody has a good job. then we take them into the public, people expect teachers to turn them into great, young adults at some point. the police have a challenge like that, too. in north filly which are tough, poor people with no real job prospects. and then we say, all right, police officers, you go into neighborhoods and you make sure everybody is happy there and everybody is calm and peaceful. it is a hell of a l challenge in an unequal society to create unequal justice. how do you do it? >> it's difficult and it is, in a sense, a balancing act. one thing remains constant in my opinion and that is you treat people with respect.
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no matter what their circumstance may be, there's no excuse not to treat them with respect. certainly we have to be aware of all the different factors that people have to contend with in today's world. i agree with what others have said about what ferguson means but for police, it means fair and impartial policing. and we cannot allow ourselves to have two different sets of standards, one for those that can afford police services that perhaps don't find themselves in the same circumstance as others and then that for the poor. it has to be the same. fair and impartial. and that's really the source of the mistrust. people don't feel that they're fairly getting police service. >> so you wrote today about this horror of police killings. and i guess you can look at it two ways, one, police go into tough neighborhoods, people are shooting at them, they're shooting back, honestly scared,
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fairly scared. maybe there aren't enough shots -- i'm not saying this enough, there's not enough justification for all of this. that's what the heart of this is, a bad arrest. that cop should have arrest that had kid but hit him with the nightstick on the side of the knee, put the cuffs on the guy. instead he shot him. >> one hopes there was some other way to deal with the situation as governor ed rendell said. we don't know. but we don't have the data to really analyze police shootings in this country. we don't really know how many there are. the fbi has a set of data, but the vast majority of police departments in the country don't report to that -- to the fbi. don't report their data on shootings to the fbi. most big cities do. but without the data, we don't even know what a we're dealing with here. i had a question for mayor walsh. how does the city of boston handle police shootings both in
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terms of the legal process and in terms of dealing with what might be community reaction? >> we have internal investigations in our police department that investigate every shooting that a police officer does in the city of boston. i've been mayor for months. we had one incident a police officer actually shot someone who was going after them with a butcher's knife. a domestic violence case. we have a process that goes through internal affairs. and one thing that was said earlier, not to jump away from the question, truly community policing is about getting out in the community. i think the governor might have mentioned this. you have to get to know the constituents and the community activists. the one thing i can say in boston is what's happened we've had about 20 years of community policing. not saying we don't have our own issues but in the way ferguson was handled in the aftermath was
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because we had partnerships or relationships with different organizations and different people and sat down with young people. i think building those relationships are vitally important. low income neighborhoods, the levels are policing. young people understand that the police are their friends. one of the commitments i made to make sure the command staff of the police department reflects the community. 50% people of color in my command staff. i appointed the first african-american chief in the history of boston we have to send messages like that as elected officials and policing. we have to send messages saying we want to work with you. we can't have situations where we have militarized police states and also the ferguson police states. the commissioner and the chief we're not going to go out there
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in riot gear. and we're able to do that pretty much successfully. i think when we talk about community policing we have to take the strength of certain cities and implement it across the board. or we wouldn't be having discussions this long. the ferguson discussion started as soon as mr. brown was shot. it didn't start after the grand jury came out with a decision. so these conversations have been going on for a long time. i also think mayors around the country need to he step up and take responsibility and stop making excuses but talk about implementing crew policing in our communities and other steps we have to take. >> it's so great to have you on. thank you. please come back again on "hardball." commissioner ramsey, governor rendell, you're staying with us. we'll talk solutions coming up now that we know about the kinds of things ferguson exposed about american life.
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to some of the fixes of these problems. we'll get to two late breaking and problematic developments on the story that just came in tonight. a man has now been arrested for making threats to kill anything that has a badge on in perfecting son he ferguson. ron allen reports that michael brown's stepfather is now under police investigation for allegedly inciting a riot. this is "hardball," the place for politics. discover card. i just received a text from discover hq? yep. we check every purchase, every day and alert you if anything looks suspicious. nice. i'm looking into some suspicious activity myself.
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madame that is not a changing table. at discover, we treat you like you'd treat you. get the it card at discover.com ro speaker john boehner says they may try to undo president obama's executive actions on immigration. the vote would be a chance for angry conservatives to vent about the president's move without shutting down the government. the senate can't be expected to go along with it. some on the right are also talking about the idea of censuring the president over his immigration action, a move that could seem as impeachment like. we'll be back after this. l the ?
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welcome back to "hardball." nbc news is reporting federal authorities have arrested a man after he allegedly made threats to kill members of the ferguson police force saying, quote, we need to kill the officer, presumably darren wilson, and anything that has a badge on. that's serious business. nbc news is reporting that michael brown's stepfather is part of an ongoing police investigation into the rioting, looting, and arson in ferguson last week. brown's establish father was heard screaming to crowds, bern this ex mretive down after prosecutors announced office er darren wilson would not be charged. we turn to the big question tonight. how do you keep the peace in a so ciety with a growing chasm o hope and how do we live in an unequal society where there's inequality in wealth. if you're a cop, how do you keep your wits about you?
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it's tough to be a cop. it's no picnic growing up in a poor and dangerous neighborhood either. what can be done? what has to be done? the president's task force has 90 days to come up with a solution. we can't wait that long. now let's talk about the answers. we're back with charles ramsey, former pennsylvania governor and philadelphia mayor ed rendell, and "the washington post" eugene robinson. commissioner ramsey, the tough question people were thinking about , when something happens in wartime, you wonder how that affects other people, they're training people in west point or annapolis in police academies. what's your sense what they're going to teach about minority relationships? they could be big kids but they're teenagers still and appear dangerous to the officer and he has to take them in. what are they saying how to avoid a ferguson? >> well, i think a variety of things you'll see in academies. in fact, you see it now in many academies, procedural justice, building trust within communities, de-escalation
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techniques, all those kinds of things are training tools that not only are taught in the academy for recruits but also in-service training. we need more reality based training where we put officers into scenarios where they have to use proper tactics, use de-escalation techniques in terms of the words that they use in order to calm situations down, and we're going to have to start really focusing on that sort of thing so that we can calm things down because i think ferguson really was a good example of how things started at a pretty high pitch and went up from there. >> again, i don't want to talk only to you but you're the police commissioner. what do you think of the idea of an officer having a camera on him or her all the time when they're doing their watch? >> i like the idea. we started a pilot program in philadelphia yesterday. we've been planning it for a few
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months now. we have officers out there now that have volunteered to wear the cameras so we can test them out to see how practical it is for field use, at least the particular model that we'll wind up purchasing. it is the future and i believe it's the way we're going to go in philadelphia. >> let me go back to gene. what do you think of all of this? i think people want to know -- i don't even like the word cop . police officers, do they have something to hide when they're roughing up a person, intimidating a possible witness or some the tricks, how you get stuff out of people on the street corner. it may not be pretty. >> it may not be pretty. cameras can go a long way in showing what actual ly what happened. there's a question of fairness and a perception that it's not fair, people aren't being treated fair and young, black men don't feel they're treated fair. the question i would have for governor rendell, chris used the word earlier very important is hope, and i think fairness is
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important so how do you give people in these communities or in any community hope for a better future and also a sense that they're going to get a fair shake? >> well, i think chris made a very good point. police are asked to act in the environment that's created not by them, sometimes owecati by them, sometimes owecatoccasi, but it's the things we don't do as a society. we don't have proper education. we don't have proper training. we don't have commitment to finding people the right type of jobs. those are the things that are important to people and if there was less anger in the community in general, that would help. with ybut the policeman is put those situations, the environment is created by other things, things they have nothing to do with and they've got to be a neutral arbiter. the key is fairness and relationships and i go back and the mayor says it, too, and it's
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practiced in philadelphia as well as anybody, we have to have police get into the neighborhoods who talk to people, who build up relationships. we have to do more things like p.a.l. you can scoff at p.a.l. and people say it's window dressing, it isn't. people who go through the p.a.l. program are not likely to view police as the enemy. there are so many things we can do and then we've got to have fair and appropriate review. the prosecution has to be fair. the prosecutors have a tough time reviewing actions of police because police are their witnesses in 99% of the caseses so sometimes you have to have special prosecutors or a special unit. i create add police brutality unit that did nothing but review those cases. they didn't prosecute rape cases or assault cases or anything else. we sort of walled them off. and we've got to have prosecutors who are willing to bring a case to a jury. now i don't know what a jury would have done, an actual 12-person jury hearing all the evidence in this case, this is a question that should have been decided in the open in public by
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a jury, a jury of the peers of both pike ail brown and the peers of the policemen as well. >> let me go back to commissioner ramsey. your experience as a police officer, you've had people as commissioner in philadelphia where you've had police shootings, use of lethal force , is there a general attitude about police using that gun? is it last resort? is it something, the best cops don't have to do? and when they do it, do you put on the bow and arrow squad, on administrative leave? what's the whole situation like for a cop who uses his gun and kills somebody? >> well, you're trained that using a firearm is a last resort. when we have a police related shooting, the tactics that an officer used, if they used different tactics, might there have been a different outcome. we do take officers off the
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streets for a period of time after a the shooting. there is counseling they have to go through. if they're cleared in the shooting incident and so forth. so there is a process that's in place. the district attorney reviews every single shooting that we have, at least if you were shooting at a human being, not destroying an animal but the d.a. does review all of our shootings, so there is a process in place. it is last resort. that is the training that officers receive during the course of their recruit and in-service training. >> it's an honor to have all of you gentlemen on tonight, i mean it. thank you commissioner charles ramsey, once commissioner here in washington and very much a part of philadelphia society keeping the peace up there. governor rendell, thank you so much for your extensive expertise and eugene robinson. up next from the streets of the country to the classrooms of royal africa, we have a way to help. one of my colleagues is doing it and this is "hardball," the place for politics.
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welcome back to "hardball." tonight we'll talk about the rise and fall of bill cosby, a man whose sonny persona on scream deviated so much from his alleged behavior off screen. watch out, jeb bush says he won't be kissing the ring if that's what you think, of the extreme right if he chooses to run for president. they'll have to take him as he is. that's coming up in the roundtable. right now a vital cause my colleague laurence o'donnell has been championing called k.i.n.d., kids in need of desks over in aftrica. black africa, an undeveloped largely royal colony in southeast africa. millions of young africans struggle in the classroom every day because they have no place to sit or write on. nothing but sitting on the ground which is often a dirt floor. funds have provided over 221 --
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over a we're of a million kids have desk in the can country through the evers the lawrence o'donnell who launched the organization in conjunction with unicef, the great u.n. organization back in 2010 and today she is helped raise $7 million thanks in large part to the generosity of people like yourself, msnbc viewers. they have expanded their mission for young girls, girls hoping to continue their education over there. i'm joined by the man behind the effort, the host of "the last word" on msnbc, lawrence o'donnell. give us a little chore of how you got into this and what you've learned in this good cau cause. >> it's been just a fascinating four years for me, chris. the first time i went over there was in 20 10 just before we launched "the last word" the 10:00 p.m. show i do here on msnbc, and i was trying to find something that would be uniquely possible because i had suddenly had this forum, this television
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forum, and i'd gone to this through a friend of mine who visit eed and told me this is a simple need to me, chris. every school that you go to in those days you ask them what they need and the very first thing they would say, they would just say chairs, chris. they wouldn't say desks. >> unbelievable. >> they wouldn't say desks and chairs because they had never seen desks in classrooms. all they wanted was a place for the kids to sit other than the floor and, oh, by the way, while we're at it, could we get a chair for the teachers because the teachers were standing there seven hours a day with no desks or chairs. so we went to work trying to figure this out and with the guidance of unicef there, which is my great partner on this, we found a manufacturer who could just make us enough for one classroom just to see what that would do. and i delivered those desks to the first classroom and it really was up to that point the most exciting day of my life, chris, watching these kids see these desks for the first time.
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it wasn't -- it's an interesting name to call it kids in need of desks because the kids in need of desks don't even know they need them. they've never seen them. they don't know that's a possibility in a classroom. and i used to work as a public schoolteacher. every little advantage a kid can have in a classroom makes a huge difference. you never know what the trick is with any individual kid. i always like to think that there's someone out there in the back of that classroom who suddenly find himself or herself in a desk where she suddenly has the kind of visual angle on that black board up in the front of the room that she needs to focus and do her work and somewhere maybe in the back of one of those classrooms is the next nelson mandela and changing the environment of that classroom just might be the trick, the magic moment that turns the struggling student into a great student. >> okay.
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tell us what we can't see on television? we're looking at these young kids, grade school kids. what was it like to sit in a room like that, rural africa, they grew up maybe in huts without any water, any toilets or anything like that with very minimal food, they may be living on corn all the time and a little bit of meat and they show up in great looking uniforms and they're in a world that's already much more modern than what they go home to at night. >> that's right. and some of the girls do have uniforms. most of them don't. most kids there and, chris, your africa experience goes back much further than mine, the peace cor corps. you know much more about this region than i do. i'm a newcomer. everything you said is true. that desk is in most cases the only furniture that they've ever had in their lives in any way. you're right, they go back to villages. they walk, some of them walk ten miles every day to and from school. if they're lucky, one of them has a bike and a couple get on that bike and they do live in what we think of, what we would think of as desperate circumstances.
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but i'm sure you've seen this, chris. they don't feel like desperate people. it is astonishing what good humor these kids have, just how energetic they are. how up they are. how creative they are in their pla play. they don't have any toys. they are doing the most creative kind of play with these twigs and things that they find with each other. there's nothing -- there's certainly nothing depressing about being around these kids in their environment. it's really just a constantly uplifting experience actually. >> you say it well and you have it all. well said, thank you. and to know more about the k.i.n.d. fund visit the website on your screen or call 1-800-4-unicef. up next bill cosby's stunning fall from grace. he's resigned from the board at temple university, the place he
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poured his heart into over the last decade. where does he go from here? plus, lots of noise now about 2016. jeb bush seems like he wants to run but he wants to run on his own terms. he's not going to join the clown cart. he believes in education, in common core education. he believes in immigration, good immigration. he is different than some of those ted cruz types out there. and he's not going to cross dress and pretend he ain't. we're going to ask the roundtable what they think of that. you're watching "hardball," the place for politics. new players in new markets face a choice: do it fast and cheap. or do it right. for almost 90 years, we've stayed true to the belief that if you put quality in, you get quality out. it's why everything we build, we build to last. build on progress. build on pride. build on a company that's built for it. no question about that.
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keep investing in it. two schoolchildren and an aid are dead following a skal bus accident in knocxville, tennessee, and a helicopter crashing into a building earlier in north salt lake, utah. two people reported dead. witnesses saying it broke apart before it went down. now back to "hardball." welcome back to "hardball." bill cosby has faced a barrage of sexual assault allegations in the past weeks. in the face of these accusations cosby himself resigned from the board of trustees of temple university the other day, which was so closely identified with. kate snow reported on his links to the school and his regulars yesterday. >> think about your power. think about it. >> reporter: for years temple university has put dr. cosby on the podium. >> you did this. and you came and now you have it. now do something with it. >> reporter: this was his beloved temple. >> i associate temple with you
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and college. >> reporter: the name he wore on sweatshirts. monday he called the chairman of the board of trustees he served on and resigned. i have always been proud of my association with temple university, cosby said in a statement. i have always wanted to do what would be in the best interests of the university and its students. as a result i have tendered my resignation from the temple university board of trustees. >> let me point out for practical purposes and the truth, he was never charged with a crime. mr. cosby, dr. cosby, denied all allegations in the past. yet his resignation from the temple board is an indication the effect these accusations are having on him. joe madison from sirius radio, jill is the only one, and danamilbank writes a column. you want to say something about ferguson. cosby is a rich topic. >> i think ferguson, we now know, is much broader. this task force put together will be a lot different than the
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'60s because you have -- >> more than the kerner commission? >> absolutely. we're old enough to remember that. it got shelved. the reality is a few things happened but there are so many balls. i was with the attorney general yesterday in atlanta and he was treated like a rock star and i think, one, when he announced -- >> why is he quitting? >> i don't nope the answer to that. >> they're not going to get a good replacement in this congress. >> well, if they're smart they'll go ahead and given the president the lady because she is tough. don't underestimate her. she's tough. but when he mentioned that the investigation on civil rights was going to go through, standing ovation. when he mentioned that he was going to announce a platform for racial profiling, standing ovati ovation. when he announced -- and this doesn't get covered, that we have personal responsibility, we have to teach our young people that they have to be on the other side. they have to respect law.
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law has to respect them. standing ovation. and the demonstration that a couple of networks focused on were a group of students very contrite that stood up, said their piece. put their hands up, walked out and the church at ebenezer gave them a standing owvation and he said that's democracy. and he got a standing ovation. >> i don't take the same view at some other people. if you want a person to honest ly put their hand here during the pledge of allegiance and the star spangled banner, to show respect for what they believe, you you have to let them say what they want to say. freedom is freedom. you can get mad at them. it's your right, too. >> by the way, you have 80-plus cities that have already asked for matching funds to buy body cameras. this should not be a
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republican/defensemen creigh democrat issue. >> anyway, that's the country we live in. it's called freedom. usually when some big shot goes down, that's okay. sometimes big shots are too big for their britches. cosby comes along i respected so much, not because he has a good personality, he came out of north philly. central high school, a touch school. he made his career on stand-up, the hardest way to make it. the fact that you can do stand-up sometimes in a dower way. >> i'd be a poor man. >> robert culp putting that a show together, "i spimt" the first african to be a star, a dramatic and comedic star on television. he did all that. >> it's tragic. in a way we all loved bill cosby. i grew up every saturday morning on "fat albert."
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it's hard to know what it feel worse of, the monstrous things he's accused of or the abysmal way he's handled it. he's broken every rule in the book on how you respond to these things. at this point there's not a whole lot he can do about it. he should come on "hardball" and explain himself to you. his reputation -- >> there seems to be something weirdly sexual about this whole thing. many guys, me, and everybody else who has fallen in love with an attractive woman, you ask them out, go on a date with them, you court them. he didn't have that approach apparently. >> allegedly. >> like necrophilia. it's a whole new thing for me. >> i think, unfortunately, the sad reality, and i think a lot of women will tell you is that we'd like to think that this really is a one in a million scenario, and i think it probably is a little more common -- >> rhuphies are common? >> they're a had little more
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common than that. i think that's one of the things that is so disturbing with this is, he yes, there is the issue of many people having enjoyed his comedy and looked at him as a role model and suddenly this other side of him allegedly turns up. it is disturbing because, you know, you're looking at a wide range of allegations that are extremely similar in the substance. it's very hard for me to find anything that strikes me as noncredible in anything that's out there. and so at the end of the day we are confronted with some very difficult circumstances. >> somebody was saying the other day, gene robinson, a much respected fellow around here, he has to fess up and in some way address this. if he does that, let's face the litigation situation. if he were to admit he did something here, is there any way -- >> from a moral standpoint i think that's beside the point, if he did this, and certainly my opinion is looking at everything that's been reported, yeah, he
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probably did. >> should he just go away? >> no, but he's got to come to grips with what he did and what the real impact of that was on people, and if that means litigation and if that means paying out a hell of a lot of money, so be it. what he did based on my interpretation of it, just my opinion, but what he did was so significantly wrong that that really does have to be addressed. him just going away, disappearing, is really -- >> i would think one count is a felony. >> the statute of limitations has run out. what people are telling me, here is what they don't understand. celebrities do this all the time. why not sue for defamation of character? >> well, the statute of limitation thing cuts both ways. >> because you can lose that case based on fact. >> well -- >> then isn't that what we're -- we don't know what fact is. >> he can't vindicate his reputation ever. that's why the only place he can really fight it now is in the court of public opinion and it
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looks like that's over . >> well, yeah. >> this is to me -- does anybody feel good about this? >> no. nobody in america. >> one thing i do feel good about -- one thing i do feel good about we hear a lot of the time about the challenges that women who have been -- and men -- victims of sexual assault and rape feel in coming forward, there is always a fear, i think, with people in that situation that they won't be believed. and obviously hear we're talking about a lot of women who felt if they came forward and said these things up until recent ly they would not be believed. one silver lining in this is that if people who are alleging something against bill cosby who obviously has powerful, robust, aggressive lawyers and publicists, if people feel they can get a fair hearing in the media environment we have currently, i think that is at least some good news for some girl out there who is being abused, who doesn't feel that she can come forward and be treated seriously. that's what i would say. >> the cosby p.r. offensive here, they don't take any shots at the women. it's all fantastical but
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nothing -- i haven't heard yet. >> there's been -- there's been pushback. i don't think that they do it -- >> character? >> today they said, i think, that they've come close to just saying they're lying. >> that's the trouble. that's a problem. >> they pushed back on one of them saying she was previously struck off the bar and that sort of thing. i don't know if they've done it -- it definitely appears to have been done. i think they have. >> when we come back, jeb bush is talking like he wants to run for president but only if he can do it his way. in other words, run like romney should have ran. be honest, talk straight, don't cross dress, don't pretend you're a whacko bird, be who you are. daughter: do you and mom still have money with that broker? dad: yeah, 20 something years now. thinking about what you want to do with your money? daughter: looking at options. what do you guys pay in fees? dad: i don't know exactly. daughter: if you're not happy do they have to pay you back? dad: it doesn't really work that way.
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we're back with the roundtable, joe, liz and dana. does jeb have the stuff, perhaps you could say, to cohoenays, perhaps you would say. you know what, i'm a little different. i'm for progressive and etch immigration policy? >> i think he does. i still, personally, don't think jeb bush will end up running for president. i think jeb bush's primary issue is he wants to push the party on a couple of particular things. either hold them to stances or move them in that direction. and i think he, actually, will probably be more successful in that than people are anticipating. i don't see the need to jump in the way people are participating. that being said, i think he's doing a really good job of scarring the living crap out of people.
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from the perspective of somebody who thinks accountability, standards and education is a good thing. i'm glad he's a part of this debate. >> who would be a part of it if he doesn't run? >> i think he can push right up into it at that line. >> i think he's kind of setting himself up as this kind of white knight candidate. this is exactly what george w. bush was doing in 1998 chlts i remember writing a lot about george w. bush that will really appeal to liberals. well, maybe not as much as it turned out. he was in the same place on immigration. now, the question for jeb, because there are so many that carve themselves up so much, there is no clear alternative. >> you guys forget. the crazies ran. the primaries.
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you're going to have 18 peoples, just like the last time, and we're going to watch these debates. >> and then you're going to dominate this squishy marker. >> you've got ben carlson sitting up there talking about obamacare was worse than 9/11. i mean, give me a break. >> there is the ability of this party to carve itself up so so many different directions that the guy who looks like the big rhino in the room. i would also point out that when we're talking about the republican party and the things that actually matter can put people in a position to win. we're not just talking about what people in tea party rallies think. we're talking about big donors. we're talking about big donors. if you don't have money, you're going to have a difficult time
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to get your message out. >> you know what you're afraid of? big d democrats are afraid of deb. >> donors are in support of regulatory reform, come rehencive tax reform, all the things that jeb bush is talking about. >> well, then, he should be their candidate. >> well, if he runs, i think they will like him. but i don't think he will run. >> if there are 18 crazies, as joe pictured, and each is carving up 5%, there's clearly running room for him there. it's not just that. there's chris christie. >> okay. let's have some fun. you're the expert. start here. who's given the ideal ticket for republicans. >> oh, now you're going to force me to offends half of my former clients. >> i would say a governor with a conservative, hard right running mate. i would say perry, perhaps along with rand paul.
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>> a lot of this depend e depends on who we're running against. >> against hillary. >> we may not be running against hillary. >> i think there are democrats who would present a much bigger challenge. >> thank you so much for coming. when we return, let me finish with a big question mark about 2016. it's not about hillary clinton, no matter what that says. it's about jeb bush. you're watching "hardball."
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let me finish tonight with this republican problem. you know, under the usual rotation voters seem to prefer, it's the republican's turn to win the presidential election next time. it makes sense for a very american reason. it's that people don't like giving too much power to the same party like they do in other countries. they like checks and balances of the three branchs of government. they also like to add to those checks and balances from keeping one party from running the white house too long. it's more arguably a woman's term.
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so basically, 2016 is opening up before us. as it is, these two years out, as a jump ball. one claim of whose turn it is against the others. we see why so many republicans want to run this time. for one thing, it's an open seat. the other, it looks like a jump ball situation. both parties have an even shot at winning. if you're going to run for president, this is your time. it's not so simple for jeb bush. he's pro-education, pro-common core education. he's made his public career dealing with policy and practice. unlike previous counties of that description, think mitt romney, he's not hiding who he is. there's no political cross dressing like the former moderate governor of massachusetts pulled off. so this is the question. does jeb bush really have the guts to tell the party of ted cruz and that sort that he has
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no intention of joining the clown card. does he have the courage to tell the right wing he's his own kind of con receivabletive and even unite this country. it's the best question out there in american politics. that's hardball for now. "all in" with chris hayes, starts right now. >> tonight on "all in." from the streets of knoxville, tennessee to the people's house. ferguson protest continues and so does the backlash. >> quite frankly, i don't think they're smart enough to know what they're doing. >> oh, my gosh. >> lisa bloom, on the on going misunderstanding the grand jury decision.
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