12-year-old tamir whose funeral was today. all in the last 120 days. police were always right? we don't get to ever ask a question? nobody goes to trial? think about it. we don't live in a police state. we have the right and the obligation to ask the questions. thanks for watching. i'm al sharpton. "hardball" starts right now. here we are again. let's play "hardball." >> good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. only the new york city, the media capital is in the storm. late today a grand jury sitting on staten island chose not to prosecute a new york police officer in the strangling death of an african-american. it comes on the heels of a

starkly similar judgment in st. louis. political reaction was immediate. here's kentucky senator rand paul speaking to me a bit over an hour ago. >> i think it is hard not to watch that video of him saying, i can't breathe, i can't breathe, and not be horrified by it. >> we're showing you the full exclusive interview with senator paul later, including his potential presidential candidate's anti-war views that seem to bear a starting similarity. certainly it sounds like me talking. we'll have him later in the show. tonight the reaction in the streets of new york to that grand jury decision in staten island. let's to go anne thompson down will with the protesters in midtown manhattan. she joins us by phone. we have tramain lee where the incident occurred. to ann thompson, what is the mood of the crowd? >> i'm here, it is peaceful.

it is a very angry crowd. but peaceful. you can hear them screaming. their first amendment rights have been violated. the message is that black lives matter. that i have heard throughout midtown as we have talked around. and they want the police to respect them. they're angry because there was no indictment when the policeman used what they claim is an illegal hold on eric garner. there are a lot of people here, a lot of communication on social media. i talked to one young man who said he felt the need to come out into the streets. there needed to be a physical presence here tonight. i spoke to another man, 38-year-old douglas davis. he has two masters degrees. he is from brooklyn. he owns a home and he is an african-american. and he said, it disturbs him that just because of how he was

born, that people would do this. >> ferguson is new york. >> ma'am, what's your message here? why are you street streets today? >> i'm in the streets because i'm an educator. i don't want to see my student gunned down. i don't want to see my father, 90 nephews, we're being killed in broad daylight and they're not even being brought to court to find out if they're guilty or not guilty. >> the grand jury's decision, the failure to indict. do you feel that make your life less valuable? >> yes. in my mind i said you know what? they saw it happen in ferguson and maybe they'll indict him. i knew the truth in my heart. >> you're a teacher? >> yes. >> what do you teach? >> i work a program. >> yes. >> i'm here because i went to nyu. i was here during occupy wall street. i was here watching every single small injustice being taken away from us slowly. they won't let it is protest then or now. and i stand with all my black

brothers and sisters. it shouldn't be racial. you shouldn't have to be black to understand that black life matters. >> thank you. >> reporter: we'll see. we've seen a lot of police presence down here in midtown manhattan. we've seen cops go down fifth avenue toward rockefeller central. but we have seen no incidents of any kind of brutality or any kind of physical confrontation here. most of the protests have been peaceful and very vocal. back to you. >> let's go, you're out on staten island. give as you sense of what's going on right now. >> reporter: right behind me, just yards from where i stand right now is where eric garner died. i spoke with his father for a few minutes. he stood on the periphery of a bosnia teem and he told me he was tired. hike the movement and those supporting his family, he said

he is there to march with them. not just today but tomorrow. the overall sense was that he was tired. tired of answering questions from the media about how he feels. a tired of this wait until the grand jury announcement came out today. also tired of not getting justice. i spoke with others who said it isn't just the one officer who should face some pun he shallment. a system that includes the broken windows policy. they say it is overpolicing and aggressive policing. eric garner was initially confronted because he was selling loose untaxed cigarettes. allegedly. so you don't have the angry chanting but there is hurt. a weight on their shoulders. as one young person said, when is enough, enough? to watch him say over and over that i can't breathe is troubling for so many people. >> let me ask but the grand jury situation. i guess it is hard to figure out who to blame here.

who do they blame? the grand jury was a pretty mixed crew of people. a lot of diversity. several, maybe five african-americans. nine minorities. we don't, we'll never know what the count was. there are 23 people in that grand jury. but the grand jury made the decision. why do people in new york or everywhere in the country think these grand juries keep making these decisions? >> i think some people will say that we're a crisis of culture in society. the lives of black people, specially low income, have somehow less value. unlike the ferguson situation, there is been titlely kept circumstances why w this grand jury. everything has been under wraps. we don't know what the grand jury saw. tonight it was announced that he filed a request to allow some evidence to be released to the public. that may shed some light. but again, without that, there's

still more questions than answers. so people around the country are left with that video and the images of eric garner taking his last breath. >> thank you very much. we're waiting for a statement right now from eric holder in washington. we'll bring that you when it hams. i'm joined by eugene, a former new york city police officer. jim cavanagh, retired special wagt the atf. and laush mcneil with the university of illinois. professor, what do you make of this thing just mentioned by trymaine? the d.a. said he isn't allowed to release any specific information. what could be exculpatory to use a legal term, toward the police officer who was the subject of the grand jury hearing. >> most people know grand jury,

timally the process is kept secret. he does have to request that information as part of a public disclosure. but it is not guaranteed. and i think that it is really important because we need answers. we need to understand with this compelling video, the grand jury could have reached this shocking outcome. >> there are 22 witnesses. what could they have been told that contradicts what looks to be misbehavior by that police officer, if a chokehold is not permitted and he used a chokehold. that choke killed a guy. it was used a homicide by the forensic people. what's missing here that would change that common sense look at what's going on? >> this is so completely outrageous to me from a legal perspective. i'm shongd. possibly the way the jury instructions were given them didn't understand what the standard was, whether that police officer was guilty.

to me, i mean, this just a shocking verdict. outside of that confusing jury instructions, it is difficult. we don't know all the evidence. without releasing that evidence, we're all guessing. >> here's the problem. let me to go eugene mcdonnell. the people have to go out and face them in society. who have all seen these pictures. it is not like michael brown. they have to see the actual killing. and then say i didn't do anything wrong. there must have been something told to that jury that convinced them they could face people and say he did go he should have done. >> this is sort of a predictable result. the officer went in and said i didn't mean to hurt anybody. it was a botched arrest. that's what i presume emthese

outside the grand jury in his statement. this was the last thing that i wanted to do. wasn't a chokehold. it was an inartful takedown. the jury is required to see it through his eyes and the situation he is in. a situation that's not predictability. he doesn't know the ending. we know the ending when we look at the video. whatever you think about the situation, there is a lot to be said as a matter of legal analysis. >> if it wasn't a chokehold, how comb choked to death? the decision that he was killed because of a lack of air but there were people on top of him as well. they're not supposed to do that as well. but that was one of the issues. what actually caused this to happen? the truth is, arrests are improvised sxraents is the cops have to deal with this. they have women's.

they think worst-case scenario. this is over a loose cigarettes, a few cents of tax revenue, and there is serious policy, training, political questions. and i might say, i heard senator paul, elected official should stop like bystanders. they own the system. there are reasons these happen and elected officials shouldn't act like they're shocked to find this out. police officers have enormous powers. the they're virtually immune. what do you find questionable in the law? the fact cigarettes are taxed heavily in new york city historically, incredibly high taxed and it suggests, there is always encouraging butt legging. now you have police saying, go arrest this guy who is selling cigarettes one at a time which violates our tax laws. is that where you're going? >> i'm not even sure the cops have the exert east to be doing this. it is the worst possible

approach to be sending police officers to deal with tax issues. you can deal with this civilly. you can get tax enforce. people. why they would do it. nobody said this was a bad idea. this has been ratified. these cases were brought to court. the d.a. in staten island said these are crazy days. don't bring this through. he. so there is a lot of very serious issues to look at beyond the particular events that occurred on the situation there. >> go ahead. this is a white collar crime. avoiding taxes. why do you get a guy in a chokehold, jump him like that if it is a tax law. >> i think we're focusing on the wrong things. >> we're focusing on the wrong thing. not why he stopped hem but what happened. that should be the focus. and the idea that it was a botched arrest? when someone is pleading for their life saying, i cannot

breathe and that police officer showed deliberate indifference, that's intent. someone is screaming, i cannot breathe. i am more concerned with the need for police training so this doesn't happen again. >> okay. let me go to mr. cavanagh. we've talk about solutions. the president led the way on monday and i was very impressed. he said police cameras on the person of the policeman, training, arrest methods, obviously. how do you de-escalate an incident like this? a recruitment of minorities? here you see white police officers who have been trained not to use chokeholds and it is on film. all the solutions, or rather, problems identified. and here we go again. >> right. if you watched the video of mr. garn he, when the officer gets on his back for the takedown, he puts his hands, like, okay,

okay. he is not punching them. he is not resisting, physically resisting. he doesn't want to be handcuffed to start with. once the officer gets behind him, he acts like i'm giving up. you can arrest me. and when he is on the ground is when the chokehold -- >> look at the guy's hand. with all his weight, that oefrls puts his hand with the elbow engaged like that. a straight arm. all his weight on that guy's head on cement. that alone is frightening for a guy selling illegal cigarettes? >> it is frightening. to be in these situations, you were a uniform officer like i was as well. and i've been pinned on the hood of my radio car by guys as big as garner. and every patrolman can tell you they've been through those things. they're tough. they get on the street and those things happen. they fight. it is the way it is. to set that in there is what the problem is in this particular case. and the rundown you made of what needs to change and what eugene

said. and council there is true. we need better tactics. each of these shootings, these deaths, if you look at it take. 12-year-old boy in cleveland. the police car drives up. just drives up right up to the boy. if there was a guy there with a gun that wanted to kill you, he would just shoot you through the windshield of your cruiser and you would be dead. why would that be a tactic that you want to employ? you would want to back off and look around. >> i've had, with my kids, ppks, replicas, not guns burk they look very effective. just like the german gun. and they feel in your hand like it. and they had the orange in the front of the gun. you shoe polish that over black and it looks like a real ppk. exempt that the person who was the dispatcher got word it might have been a toy gun. these are somewhat murky but you're right about police practice. thank you. thank you. we'll be back with the

politicians and their political reaction from new york city. the new york congressman on the grand jury's decision in new york today. plus, my interview with senator rand paul. we just did it about an hour ago. this is quite an interview who think we're in too many wars around the world. challenge us. they take us to worlds full of heroes and titans. for respawn, building the best interactive entertainment begins with the cloud. this is "titanfall," the first multi-player game built and run on microsoft azure. empowering gamers around the world to interact in ways they never thought possible. this cloud turns data into excitement. this is the microsoft cloud. by avoiding rapid acceleration hereand stop-and-go driving, your savings on gas could be equivalent to how much? up to 50 cents a gallon? 75 cents? $1? the answer is... up to $1 a gallon.

sensible driving avoids unnecessary energy loss saving you money and reducing co2 emissions. take the energy quiz -- round 2. energy lives here a still ahead, my interview with senator rand paul. he introduced a declaration of war saying president obama doesn't have the authority as president alone to wage war. you'll be amazed at how much he sounds like a lot of us on the anti-war front. here's some news you may find surprising.

we're for an open internet for all. we're for creating more innovation and competition. we're for net neutrality protection. now, here's some news you may find even more surprising. we're comcast. the only isp legally bound by full net neutrality rules. this is an issue we've been dealing with for too long. i'm not interested in talk. i'm interested in action. and i am absolutely committed as president of the united states to making sure that we have a

country in which everybody believes in the core principle that we are equal under the law. >> welcome back to "hardball." that was of course, president obama late today. reacting to that big story out of new york. the big bad story where a grand jury has cleared an nypd officer on charges of a chokehold death of eric garner. we continue to await attorney general eric holder who will speak at any moment from washington. he will have something to say about this garner case. let's bring in nbc's report here is between the protesters up there on sixth avenue. >> reporter: protesters are able to barrel their way through the police barricades here and spill out on to the streets. we saw a very intense protest as they were trying to chant and yell. we saw several being taken into custody. one man who said he was part of the foreign press stoex

stand-off has started to slow down now. there are now double barricades. the police presence is very heightened around here and we should expect this to bubble over again very soon. >> these people were spontaneous responders to the situation? they came from all over? how did they get there so quickly? what was going on? was it organized or just regular people who wanted to make their voices heard? >> reporter: there is a very galvanized effort over social media. to gather in the square. to march to times square and into rockefeller center. now as you know, there is a tree lighting ceremony today so there is a lot of foot traffic here with tourists, as well as the heightened police presence. so they're trying to disrupt the traffic here and really make a stand. >> any violence? or is it cool so far? >> no violence. a little hotheaded. anger and aggression toward the

police but nothing violent. >> thank you so much. take care of yourself. joining me now, u.s. congressman gregory meeks and charles rangel. thank you for staying over tonight. congressman rangel, i've known you forever. this reminds me of the old groucho marx thing, who are you going to believe, me or your lying eyes? this picture is so stark and nothing in it suggests anything that mitigates against bad police work and in fact, lethal police work that shouldn't be the case. >> let's get away from all this legal thing. people think it is too complicated or we shouldn't talk about race. let's just try on talk about common sense. this one guy is the victim. he is dead. he is saying to the peel who asailed him, i cannot breathe. a group of people around him are in uniform. the man that died was, it was called a homicide. people in the grand jury, are supposed to decide how did this

guy die? and they come out and say it certainly wasn't anybody around him that was responsible. now, that means either he took his own life or that the gang of blues that were in there had decided with the district attorney that they would not be a true indictment based on the true facts that are record. so the only thing we can do in this case as i see it is to just get grand jury just to see what was the district attorney looking for an indictment? which side was he on? because we're both former prosecutors. and it is very difficult to tell the prosecutors' office from the police office. you're working together trying to find the truth and put wrongdoers in jail. >> let me go to mr. meek. we have an adversarial system.

prosecutors prosecute. both this case and ferguson, the one similarity is it looks like, i'm not sure, that both prosecutors didn't want to prosecute. they didn't believe there was even probable cause anything was done wrong. how do they explain their behavior in this case? in both cases? >> i think that has to be part of the federal investigation also. because clearly, the d.a. controlled the process. as mr. rangel has indicated. we're both former prosecutors. when you're in with a grand jury, you present your witness. generally when you allow someone to come in to testify who is the defendant, it is really to get a transcript so you could use against him or her at trial. so, afterwards, you ask the grand jury for an indictment. we do need transcripts. i would like to know whether mr. donavan asked for an indictment after the conclusion of presenting the case to the grand jury. it seems to me something is wrong and peculiar here. so i think as part of, we will

ask the justice department and the attorney general holder to look at the relationship here between the d.a., the police officers, and the procedure that took place within this grand jury. they need to look at that as part of the practice and pattern and investigation. looking at this case in its entirety. >> i want to talk about cameras. i am a believer that you can improve situations. i know you are, mr. rangel, as well. cameras on police officers, better training. here you have police officers trained not to use the chokehold. there was a camera on them and apparentlily the police officers knew there was a camera on them. and still they behaved the way they did. >> the other similarity, that both the victims were black. you can take all the cameras you want and people who want to hurt somebody and take away their human rights and their konls constitutional rights. these are mean-spirited people. the other is the worst people

that watch this and they don't say anything about it. it is embarrassing, it is awkward for me as an american to talk about this disease we've had since slavery. we're curing it gradually but it exists there. so get the cameras and get the training and get what you want. what do they talk about at the dinner table about people of color, especially young men? >> and this shows the violation of human rights. we are the first country to talk about what's going on, we criticize everybody when we go say their violation of human rights. here for the world to see in ferguson, here in staten island, and other cases, the young boy in cleveland, ohio. violation of human rights. so we as america have to say, america has to do better and we need all americans. and what i think i've seen on the cameras of those demonstrating on the streets today, what makes me pleased about it. it is a multiracial and mumt ethnic crowd that's out there. just as the new york city press

conference that we had today. we had not only members of the congress tal black caucus there but we had others who were not members. joe crawley, others showing that we have to fix this problem as americans. >> i want to be a little morement on miss particular than mr. rangel. everybody sing more liberal than their parents. their kids are more liberal than they are and better on race. i can see it tracking. in three generations of my family. kids, our kids are who have are 20 years old. they don't even think about race. it never comes up them date across racial lines. i guess i'm more hopeful about you than this. >> i'm hopeful as hell. we've come a long way since slavery. in just 50 years, it took 200 years, they gave us the voting rights act, the civil rights act. all deliberate speed. we're not saying that america is racist. it is probably just a handful of

sick people. it is those people that don't stand up when they hear it in the room. anti-semitic or anti-black. people that say why are you always bringing up race? you have a black president. we're talking about not color. we're talking about how do you treat people. and i tell hue is not saying much about this. the holy mother the church. we don't hear from the church. we don't hear from the christians. not our church. all of the churches. all of the synagogues, all of the people that say beyond the constitution that human beings should be treated with dignity. >> you ought to get ahold of our church. the one you and i share. get ahold of the pope. i'm dead serious. i think he would listen to you. >> if i can get ahold of the pope, i've got it made. i'm not taking any gambles with the bishops. thank you. >> a great veteran of new york. much more on this developing story ahead. and later my interview. i think it is an exclusive

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it's so, what's the word?... sexy. go national. go like a pro. crowds protesting a grand jury decision not to indict a policeman in that choke hole death of eric garner continue to grow. look at them in new york city and midtown. joining me, jonathan, thank you so much. is there anything we're likely to learn once the court has released the additional information that donavan, the district attorney out there in staten island, said he wants released? is there anything that will say to these people in the audience, hey, maybe this was closer to justice than we believe? anything? >> it what would be interesting if a judge approves the release. remember, new york is much stricter than some other states in terms of the release of grand jury material. but if that does happen, i would

be very interested in knowing the racial breakdown of the vote in that grand jury room. a lot of talk about race and the different viewpoints of what people bring to the table in cases like this. >> can they release that? >> if a judge aproofs the release of it, yes. it is a tough road to hoe. the d.a. has asked for it. i can't recall in recent time a case in new york where grand jury minutes and testimony, a secret has been released and it would be an unusual occurrence. if the public interest finds it is so compelling to do so. >> there is nine minority people of color on the jury of 23. five are african-americans. they would be outnumbered. would that be a significant enough minority to make their point and not have this thing rolled over? how do you read a grand jury? is a mine tort grand jury of people able to sway the group? to say come on. there's probable cause. >> as explained to us when the

officer went in and testified for two hours, the grand juriors themselves were firing questions at the officer to explain what took place on that tape. as explained to us from the officer's lawyer, the questions were both friendly from some, pointed and very tough from others. remember the officer, my understanding was the last person to go in and testify before the grand jury how many do we ever know what goes on in a jury room or a grand jury room? it is secret. the deliberations are secret. grand jurors are not allowed to talk to us unless the court somehow allows what happened there to become public. we're just not going to know. >> we're kind of short-handed when it come to procedures. if a d.a. doesn't want to prosecute, a. did. a doesn't want to prosecute, he

flips it over to a grand jury and lets them decide. but that's not hike a trial. unless they're willing to charge a person with murder of some level, we won't get a real trial. i understand why you wouldn't want to charge a person with murder if you didn't think they did it. >> i think it is an important point. this officer fwhenlt there and told his story. and the grand jurors heard his side. story. a lot of times, we keep hearing this debate about you can indict a ham sand witch. very rarely do you hear a person who is in jeopardy of a crime ever saying anything. they don't do interviews, they don't appear before the grand jury. their attorney says he denies charges. he will fight it. and you never hear from them again until the trial is oh. >> because you assume there will be a trial. that's the difference. >> that is the difference. >> that is the difference. you're laying yourself bear before a grand jury, every word of which your testimony can be used against knew trial. >> and he is in jeopardy given

the questions being asked by the d.a. >> so he assumes he is going to skate. that's why he testifies. >> or not he assumes that he has a compelling case, a compelling case. okayly if he felt he didn't have a compelling story, he wouldn't go in there. he would say i'm in jeopardy. i won't do it. that's the officer' view. i'm not saying it is right or wrong. >> are we going to see more cases where d.a.s say, like, like in the christian story. i'm washing my hands of this case. you decide. >> we have another case coming. we had a case in brooklyn. the district attorney, newly elected african-american in brooklyn. he will have to handle a case where an officer, for now it appears accidentally fired his women in a stairwell on a completely innocent man and killed him. >> we have to go. hold on. we may not come back to you. we're going directly to the attorney general in washington. >> good evening. i want to provide an update regarding the case, involving eric garner. a staten island resident who

died tragically in july of this year. since mr. garner's death, the united states attorney office for the eastern district of new york, the civil rights division and the federal bureau of investigation have been monitoring the local case closely while allowing the local investigation led by the district attorney's office in staten island to proceed first. earlier today the grand jury declined to return an indictment in this case. now that the local investigation has concluded, i'm here to announce that the justice department will proceed. with a federal civil rights investigation into mr. garner's death. this afternoon, i spoke with the widow of eric garner to inform her and her family of our decision to investigate potential federal civil rights violations. i've also been in touch with president obama as well as mayor de blasio regarding our decision. prosecutors will conduct an independent, thorough, fair and

expeditious investigation. in addition to performing our own investigative work, the department will conduct a complete review of the material gathered during the local investigation. now we've all seen the video of mr. garner''s. his death of course was a tragedy. all lives must be valued. all lives. mr. garner's death is one of recent interviews craw the country about the use of trust with the communities they are charge to serve and to protect. this is not a new york issue. nor a ferguson issue alone. those who have protected peacefully with the decision in figure have made that very clear. as a brother of a retired police officer, 9:00 very personal way about the bravery of the men and women in uniform who put their lives at risk every day to

protect public safety. the vast majority of our law enforcement officers perform their duties honorably and are committed to respecting their fellow citizens civil rights as they carry out their very challenging work. it is for their sake as well that we must seek to heal the breakdown in trust that we have seen. early this week, i travel to atlantic to begin a series of interactions to begin this process. and officials around the country, at every level of the united states department of justice, will continue this violent ongoing work. as the justice department's independent investigations into the deaths of michael brown and eric garner proceed, i will continue these conversations as we seek to restore trust, to rebuild understanding, and to foster cooperation between law enforcement and the communities they serve. now, i know that substantial number of people in new york and across the country will be

disappointed and will be frustrated by the outcome of the state grand jury proceedings today. i know many will plan to voice their disappointment publicly through protests. this is the right. this is the right of all americans. but as i have said before throughout our history, the most successful movements have been nose adhere to the principles of nonviolence. i urge all those inclined to demonstrate tonight and in the days ahead to remain peaceful in their demonstrations and not to engage in activity that's deflect attention from the very serious matters that our nation must confront. thank you. >> that was the attorney general announcing there will be an investigation into whether there was a crime commit by the police officer. up next, my interview with senator rand paul on his reaction to the grand jury decision not to indict the police officer who put eric garner in that chokehold. plus, the essential question of

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late today, rand paul introduced a declaration of war against isis because he says president obama doesn't have the authority to wage war by himself. the president disagrees. late today i spoke with senator paul about war and u.s. foreign policy. but i began with the news that a grand jury up in staten island had decided not to indict a police officer in the chokehold death of eric garner. joining me now, senator rand paul. you've made a real effort to reach across the aisle in material of minority support. how do we bridge the gap between white and black at this time

when the situation broke through like the garner case. >> i think it is hard not to watch that video of him saying i can't breathe, i can't breathe and not be horrified by it. i think there's something bigger than the individual circumstances. obviously the individual circumstances are important. i think it is important to know that some politician put a tax of $5.85 on a pack of cigarettes so that driven cigarettes jubld ground by making them so expensive. but then some politician had to say we want you arresting people for selling a loose cigarette. for someone to die over breaking that law, there is really no excuse for it. i do blame the politicians. we put our police in a difficult situation with bad laws. >> let me ask but the large question of our life, peace and war. we've had a policy it seems for a long time of going into countries in the middle east. saddam hussein. we've had two wars with iraq. we had something to do with bringing back hosni mubarak.

something with bringing down gadhafi, with bringing down bashar assad. how are you people than the people on the left and people like me who think that's all been a mistake? >> well, we might have some areas of agreement. i think one of the true things you can say about the middle east is, every time we've toppled a dictator, chaos has ensued and we're more danger. america has more danger from these regions after we've toppled the deck tators. that includes the iraq was. i think we need to think before we act. and we need to obey the constitution which says you don't go to war without the authority of congress. >> the people most in support of israel. i'm talking about people on the hard hawkish right. they're always for these wars myself question is, haven't you followed the creation of the jewish community, the jewish homeland, the jewish state of

israel? it has been found on cutting deals with the governments around you. it has never been reaching agreement with the street. why did they ever think this freedom agenda over there, overtopping these governments would make israel more secure? what were they thinking? >> i think the point is they weren't really thinking about this. the unintended consequences have been somewhat the same here. and i told them a year ago when they wanted to bomb syria. i said the unintended consequences of this is that we will be back a year later. maybe fighting against our own women's. if you supply weapons to those syrian rebels that we may be back having to fight against our own women's. and it is true now. if we have to go back in, we'll be fighting against our own women's. >> in the '60s, i was at holy cross. wayne morris came by to give a speech. and wayne morris, the liberal senator back then. we had declarations of war. we have to go back to the constitution. if we're going to war, we have

to declare it. is that what you're trying to do with isis? is that the principal you're fighting for? >> yeah. this was a big debate for our founding fathers. and it is probably the most important responsibility that any legislator shall ever have. to single a young man or woman into harm's way. the executive branch is the most prone to war. therefore we have with studied carry, vested the power of war into the legislature. george washington was adamant about this. jefferson was adamant about this. this is not something the president can unilaterally weigh in on. president obama in 2007 said exactly that. no president should unilaterally to go war. this is very disappointing. i think even for some of his supporters that he seems to bandon what excited people about him. >> you don't seem to fit -- is it more concerned to be hawkish?

i think there's an issue of brand here in your party. >> i think it depends how you define conservative. wars are very expensive. most think the primary function, myself included think the primary function of the federal government is to help the country. the federal government does have a role in defending the country. it is a very important role. i think also defense is different than offense. the people who want to be involved in wars across the globe, some of the people who wanted to be involved in libya, a year before, the exact same people in washington, wanted to support gadhafi. they were there. remember, wikileaks released documents saying that three senators were there and they wanted to give weapons to gadhafi. then a year later they wanted to give women's to the rebels. they've been on both sides and have not thought through the unintended consequences of always being involved everywhere. >> of course, hillary clinton is

the one you're talking about. they all supported the war in iraq. i'm going to run through all of them. does the united states have a vital interest with going to war in the first time? the second second time? did we have a vital interest in helping to topple egypt's government, the military government? did we have a vital interest in going to war with libya? do we have an interest today in going to war against bashar assad? where did this notion come that someone we don't like a little bit, we have to go to war with them. it's in your party more than the democratic party, although it's in both. >> not that we're pointing fingers, chris. >> but it is true, is your party more hawkish than the democrats, isn't it? >> when you look at these situation, the first check and balance is you don't let a president do it unilaterally. it has to be debated in congress. that's your first check and balance. then you have to discuss the facts. in almost every instance you mentioned, saddam hussein, there's less stability with

hussein gone, hussein was actually a check in balance against iran and there was some stability pitting them against one another. gadhafi, more dangerous therep about they've fled into tunisiap. in egypt we were worse off for a while and still in many ways not better than we were before. syria, i can't find anyone to dispute this on a factual ground, had we bombed assad a year ago isis would be in damascus and they'd be ten times stronger than they are now if we had bombed assad. doesn't make assad a great guy but he's a counterbalance against isis. >> i'm remarkably in agreement with you senator, that's scary a bit. let me ask you about where you are, also you're going in your own direction and given your party's position, i think, you're out there with senator gillibrand of new york fighting for an outside check on sexual abuse of a military women.

explain. >> you know, i think nothing motivates me more than trying to make sure that the law defends the defenseless and defends those who are minorities, not just color of the skin, but could be gender but also could be a minority because of your ideology, the shade of your ideology. when i hear about people being violently abused and have to report this to their commander, to me it's like working for a corporation and you have to report being abused to your boss who may be a drinking buddy with somebody who abused you, really it makes more sense to be outside the chain of command. i don't understand why someone who was abused may have to report it to a person who may well be a friend of the person who did the abusing. it should be people who don't know any of the people. the other thing is that accusations can work both ways. if it's a false accusation, do you want people who are impartial and don't know either side to make a judgment and someone who is trained in family law and trained in disputes like

this? or do you want someone who says, i'm the colonel and i have to make a decision and i don't know how to make this decision and be impartial? i think most colonels would say i'd rather not be involved in this, i'd rather let someone in family court deal with this because there are accusations on both sides and it's difficult to get through to find just. i know it's not fair the way it is. i met a woman last week and she gave me her pictures of her in fatigues and with her weapon. she said, i love the military. when you see senator gillibrand, give her this picture to show her that i'm proud of both me and her for leading the effort on this. >> senator rand paul, thank you so much for your time tonight. >> thanks, chris. >> the voice of new conservati m conservatism. joining me is david corns around april ryan. just a quick question and then we'll get over to garner and the situation in staten island.

what do you think about this guy? >> he's not saying anything new. as he gets closer to running for president, which clearly he wants to do, we get louder and more vocal on this noninterventionism or this nonintervention skepticism that he's been pushing because when he does that he's setting up a bloody civil war. >> against the giuliani crowd. >> you know john mccain's head will explode, bill kristol, if he gets close to getting the nomination. ted cruz today, i think maybe tomorrow, he's doing a forum with bill kristol. >> it's bringing -- >> -- and the rand paul. >> i like it. and you like it, too. >> fun fight. >> april, let's talk about today's story and the horror up in new york with that -- look at the reaction we're watching. totally nonviolent as we speak at 8:00 eastern. your view of the whole situation? >> it's a painful situation for minorities in america that have

a reality that many americans, mainstream americans don't have if you have young men in your family, you pray for them and make sure they come home safe. a man or a woman, you have a run-in with a police officer, you never know what can result. but the bottom line is, the president and eric holder, the attorney general, hit the right core by saying the issue of trust. now beyond the trust, what is the endgame? stop the talk, stop the protests -- not stop the protests, but beyond the protests and the talk, what's the endgame? what is going to result? and what we understand -- and i talked to chris darden, former l.a. prosecutor. he said, you know, he said there is a problem with some of the bias between prosecutors and some of these police officers in law enforcement departments around the country, and he said it's important that there are independent investigations from the justice department. >> is he saying they're in league together? >> some of them, he's saying, yes, they are. he's concerned about the bias. he did say that. chris darden.

>> was he? >> i don't think so. >> being tough here. >> i don't think so. >> i like the guy. anyway david cohn and april ryan. i know the difference. >> i know you do. >> a tough day for america. >> it is. >> you're watching "hardball." the place for politics. ♪ ♪ ♪ get to the terminal across town. are all the green lights you? no. it's called grid iq. the 4:51 is leaving at 4:51. ♪

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we leave you tonight with the sign of protests there in manhattan midtown. that's "hardball" for now. our coverage of the grand jury decision not to indict the

police officer in the eric garner chokehold case continues now op "all in" with chris hayes. good evening from new york. i'm chris hayes. tonight, protests fanning out across new york city and all over manhattan in the wake of the shocking decision by a staten island grand jury voting today not to indict new york city police officer daniel pantaleo. what you see are some images of the death of eric garner after being put in a chokehold that resulted in garner's death. a 43-year-old, father of six, garner was stopped by police on staten island on july 17th apparently for selling illegal loose cigarettes. and that widely seen video of the incident starts with an exasperated garner and ends with him face down on the ground repeatedly telling the cops he can't breathe.