new york has been engulfed in a hell storm of peaceful protests. demonstrators have taken to the streets halting new york traffic to a level that can only be described as new york traffic. look, i know people are angry but this is not the time for activists to turn midtown sidewalks into a congested war zone, this is the time for tourists to do that. >> that's pretty funny. good morning, it's friday,

december 5th. welcome to "morning joe." with us on set, steve rattner and host and managing editor of news one, roland martin and the president and ceo of the national urban league, mark morale. great to have you on board this morning. >> how is everybody doing. >> i got reports back from the field last night. some young people went to the protest and thought it was amazing. they felt they were witnessing history. were you out last night? anybody? >> i was out last night. >> steve rattner is out every night. but he's counting money. >> i skipped over you steve, you notice. >> it's kind of amazing. >> you hear the same thing over and over again. it is diverse as mike barnacle said very inviting. it's the antithesis of what

happened in ferguson. not the black community but the black community, the white community, hispanic community, asian-american, everybody coming together saying enough is enough. we have another story out of phoenix today. >> first of all, you did see some of that in ferguson. there were 100 plus days of protests of organized protest sos you saw that and all of this really is a culmination of series of cases. even before brown. john crawford in ohio. victor white in louisiana. carter in jones bborjonesboro, . okay this is enough is enough. this has been building. that's why the hands up don't shoot movement really is way beyond ferguson. >> but, i hope it's not called hands up don't shoot movement. you know what i hope it is, i

hope it's the i can't breathe movement. i hope it's the, this i love this stops today movement. you know why? that's on camera. the facts are not in dispute. it's something that allows us to be forward looking. >> the hands up don't shoot doesn't apply just to michael brown. >> but why go there? >> because as an african-american you know what my dad taught me. you get pulled over you keep those hands on the steering wheel, don't make a move. that was way before ferguson. >> after trayvon that's what eugene robinson and i talked about. the facts are not in dispute in staten island. and also i think for most fair minded good americans the facts are not in dispute. what we've said here since trayvon there are two criminal justice systems in america. let's not argue over the facts of this case or that case. let's talk about the facts that are on the ground today for

african-american males. why we have to fix police. why we need to put cameras on cops. >> the story that also wrenched my soul was the 12-year-old boy, because i have a 12-year-old son and these cases will continue to play out because that case -- and yesterday the cleveland police department signed a consent decree with the department of justice and interesting information has come out on the background of the officer. >> yes. absolutely. >> so, discussion is going to continue and you're right it's a broader conversation but, you know, i've been struck by how social media and the ability of people to organize through the use of social media has helped to fuel this movement on college campuses, the streets of cities, and the broad, as you mentioned diversity of people involved and that's why i think it's so important to continue to have

the conversation about the changes that need to take place. >> you mentioned the cop in cleveland but also i think what's fascinating and we'll get to it in just a moment the rift or difference of disagreements between the police union and the mayor and it exemplifies what we're talking about here and the problem. there are good points to be made on both sides but it seems as if they don't want to come together and really try to figure out how to fix it in a moment. thousands took to the street to protest the lack of an indictment in the eric garner case. holland tunnel were blocked. three dozen people were arrested. other demonstrators staged die in protests or carried coffins with names of alleged police violence victims. the anger is spreading across the country as protesters call

for justice in cities including chicago, washington, d.c., dallas and oakland. there's praise and criticism for new york city mayor bill de blasio. president obama praised de blasio's response to the protest and new yorkers for the minimal amount of violence. but the head of the police union says daniel pantaleo the policeman cleared by the grand jury is a model officer and de blasio insulted police when he said his african-american son should be told to be careful when he interacted with officers. >> what police officers felt yesterday after that press conference is that they were thrown under the bus, that they were out there doing a difficult job in the middle of the night protecting the rights of those that protest, protecting our sons and daughters and the mayor was behind microphones like this throwing them under the bus. he needs to support new york city police officers. he needs to say to teach our children every one last of our

children sons and daughters to respect police officers. you cannot resist arrest because resisting arrest leads to confrontation, confrontation leads to tragedy. >> i said there is a history and there is a reality a lot of people feel fear. it's not that they should it's that they do and we have to address it and we have to be honest about it. i don't think denying that reality will move us forward. we're trying to create a dynamic where every young person of color understands that a police officer is there to protect them and they feel respected and they feel, in fact, they can work with the police, they should want to provide information to the police, et cetera. that's what we're trying to get to. but we're not there yet. >> i don't think -- i was ambiguous on how i felt about st. louis and ferguson as far as the discussions this past week, the questions about the grand jury. there's one thing and roland you

talked about it before. this is a conversation that gene robinson and i had nonstop during trayvon before and after. it's not just in new york city. it's across america. the conversation that your father had with you is the conversation that most fathers have with their sons, with their black sons. gene would say, with their black sons you get pulled over, keep your hand up. like gene said -- >> don't mess with any police. >> now, of course, if i got out of the car and started moving towards a police officer they would scream and yell at me. but i am not presumed guilty. i'm not presumed to be carrying a gun. young black males by too many cops are. >> here's what happened. somebody is watching and saying yeah but you might have some folks that's involved in some type of criminal activity. the reason we know about racial

profilling today it was middle class african-americans being pulled over on the new jersey turnpike in their nice cars. wait a minute i'm doing the right things. i went to school. i don't have any issues, you're pulling me over? the reality is forget your economic status they don't see your degree or that brooks brothers suit behind that tinted window. so when they see you it's a different reaction and what this is also shown and i hear people say look -- >> again, i just want to say again this is not just new york city. this sal over america. this is not a knock at new york city. >> bill de blasio did not throw police officers under the bus. >> i know. i'm wondering what he was doing there. >> he's an aggressive advocate. i think he may have overstated -- he may have overstated -- if you look at what bill de blasio said. i thought he was measured.

>> steve rattner. >> i thought bill de blasio handled it just about perfectly. he kept the city calm. he said the right things. i don't think he threw the whole police department under the bus. he simply said what is a fact if you have an african-american son you have to tell him to be careful how he conducts himself because his actions may be misinterpreted. >> if the head of the police union doesn't know that. good god. >> whatever comes out of this investigation, for the head of the police union to say officer pantaleo was a model officer -- >> he must not know officer pantaleo's background, two lawsuits, right? >> you don't even have to cho that. we saw the video. he continued the chokehold while the guy was on the ground saying i can't breathe. there were six or seven cops around and then shoved his face into the ground. there's video. >> people were arguing he can't breathe, he died. >> we talked about this.

there's great teachers and bad teachers. okay this is for the cops. there's great cops and there's some bad cops. look at that video, this was not a model cop. >> first of all, here's the other thing you need to understand. that police response that's why d. a.'sshould not prosecute police officers. when they run for office they try to get their endorsements. mayors are afraid of police unions. not all mayors but they have lobbyists and money and know when the police union comes out against you when you're running for office the public goes oh, oh, what's going on. >> the history these federal prosecutions have been more successful. when we talk about policy changes we have to look at state grand juries and state investigations of police uses of excessive force and misconduct and ask if that's really the way

forward. >> you look at what's going -- i think the grand jury process and again al sharpton talked about this yesterday morning, that's the first thing you have to look at and specifically when it involves cops. i'm not saying it's rigged, i'm not saying it's fixed, you can talk about the politics of it. but also if i'm a d. a.i'm not going to piss off cops because i depend on cops to come in and testify for me. >> it's an incestuous relationship. >> it has to be a close relationship. let me tell you something. new york city is safer today than it's been in ages so there's a lot of great law enforcement officers up and down doing a lot of great things. you're right. it's a close relationship. i want has to be close relationship. and that's why when it's time to have a grand jury look at a police officer's misconduct there has to be an independent -- >> with the limited amount of details from the grand jury's

investigation but the panel sat for nine weeks and heard from 50 witnesses, testimony from 22 civilians in addition to police officers and medical officials. also 60 exhibits admitted into evidence including four videos, police training information and his medical records. >> this d. a.also didn't have the guts to tell the judge i want this released. and so he made the decision and there are d.a.s with integrity. he's approaching a cop, shoot and kill him. the police chief said unjustified, he was arrested and charged. it went to the first grand jury, no bill. that d.a. took to it a second grand jury and got a manslaughter. these d.a.s depending on the state laws can go to a second

grand jury. >> let's talk about this grand jury. we can debate what happened in ferguson. let's talk about this case. >> he didn't die from obesity. >> it's important for viewers to know we're not talking about finding the officer guilty we're talking probable cause. it's the lowest standard. everybody always jokes you can indict a grapefruit. you can. what d.a. in america look at that videotape and not immediately go you know what? >> there's another question in both cases and that is whether the d.a. deviated from standard procedure by not recommending a charge to the grand jury. >> this is exactly the point. >> that's the problem. >> which is that if you simply put the evidence in front of a grand jury you may get one answer. if the d.a. goes in which what

happens in the vast p preponderance of cases they do. it's hard to understand why the district attorney wouldn't go in there we have an indictable offense. >> police officers would be angry. >> staten island is a community -- >> also what d.a. doesn't end up and we can say as well -- the . d.a. in ferguson, would doesn't say at the end i want an indictment. >> a lot of times if they are not poised to ask for an indictment they don't present evidence. >> no doubt about it.

>> it was more complicated. but in 23 years the d.a d.a. mcculloch has never indicted a police officer. >> regardless of the facts in ferguson or staten island we have a conflict of interest. >> john crawford those two cops were indicted. >> we have a conflict of interest and we have to underline this because you all are saying the same thing. when we have a conflict of interest, guys, between cops and the d.a. and the justice department and eric holder. >> but the problem is the federal government cannot dictate a state prosecution. this -- see put the pressure on holder or the president that's federal cases. pressure in new york needs to be on andrew cuomo and changing the state law. that's the problem.

>> here's chris christie on his opinion as to what should happen. do you have that, dan? >> by the way, we got the headline. we just showed it. cuomo is asking to change the grand jury process in new york. >> that's why the protesters, policy must now be driven. they need to be showing up not only brooklyn bridge -- here's new jersey governor chris christie. >> as someone who led a prosecuting office for seven years before i became governor one of the things i learned is that you never know all the things that a grand jury knows unless you're in that grand jury and working with them. i'm not in a position in where i stand in second guessing the work of the grand jury and the prosecuting office that presented that. >> why can't we second guess? >> i will say, in chris

christie's defense there that's a lawyer, there are a lot of times i heard a verdict and i said oh, my god that's the worst verdict ever. let me finish my sentence. and then you talk to the lawyers in the case and they tell you oh, it's not that simple. i'm not talking about these two case. i do understand as a prosecutor and i'm sure you've talked to prosecutors too where we see a headline and then everybody rushes out and decides something different. >> i want to respond to that. the thing is mcculloch invited second guessing by releasing the evidence. the d.a. in staten island invited second guessing by saying i want to release evidence. when you say put it in the court of public opinion you're inviting people to form an opinion. >> don't we want to be transparent. >> let me say this. grand jury proceedings are typically secret. my question is why in these cases did prosecutors deviate.

how many times in the past mcculloch released the entire proceedings of a grand jury? how many times has the d.a. in staten island went to a judge and asked for an extraordinary order -- >> didn't we hear everybody wanted it to be transparent and the evidence released. i'm just asking. isn't that what i heard? >> my position would be, my position would be at the beginning there should have been a special prosecutor appointed. >> but that's a different point. but you're not saying that ferguson grand jury material shouldn't have been released. >> why not release the proceedings of every grand jury. >> when the d.a. says this is a different circumstance, different situation, i need different resources what he's saying is oh, i'll treat this case differently than others. >> let me ask both you guys as we wrap up. like in staten island, for instance, isn't it a cop out to

go to a grand jury. >> rare the target of a grand jury was the before a grand jury. >> that's happened here. >> the calculation is if i put my client before the grand jury and my client really expresses remorse, expresses a sense of well maybe this was an accident, that he can, you know what avoid an indictment. >> i'm laughing because no criminal defense attorney would want usually to put their witness up there because the standard is so low to indict you would never let them incriminate. but if they are police cases, and somebody says don't worry about it. >> the prosecutor put on the prosecution before the grand jury. >> just to understand the way the system is set up you got the prosecutor who is in an adversarial role as the

defendant. there's no way you would ever put your client there to be cross-examined in a grand jury unless you knew they were going to take it. >> in these grand juries, did the district attorney conduct the cross-examination? >> no. >> that's what i just said. there would be a cross-examination. >> in a trial. >> and also in a grand jury. >> that's right. >> if i'm a prosecutor and a lawyer is stupid enough to let a defendant come in to a grand jury i'll beat the hell out of him where the regular rules evidence don't apply, i'll lean in and get everything i can get in the grand jury that i can use to be admissible unless everybody knew i'm going to take care of you. >> i have 12 other stories to get to. coming up on "morning joe" -- >> good luck with that. >> we'll speck exclusively with new york city police commissioner bill bratton.

also senator gillibrand and chef mario batali will be here. and tommy the chimp gets his day in court. we'll tell you why and what the verdict was. i'm confused. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. i've been called a control freak... i like to think of myself as more of a control... enthusiast. mmm, a perfect 177-degrees. and that's why this road warrior rents from national. i can bypass the counter and go straight to my car.

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♪ time now to take a look at the morning papers. "new york times," 20 people are dead after islamist militants took over two buildings in chechnya. ten police officers were killed when the militants stormed a media building in the capital. security forces confronted them and some fled before taking over an empty school. the take is one of the most violent in months and broke out

hours before russia president vladimir putin delivered his state of the nation speech in moscow. >> the "wall street journal" talking about how investors of the popular ride sharing app uber are apparently unphased by the recent bad press. >> have you used it? >> i have. >> does it work for you >> it's pretty convenient. there's the uber and uberx. >> i'll take the subway or the city bikes. >> i think it's $1 a block. >> kind of expensive. >> but worth it. >> sometimes i pedal and let the guy ride. >> uber is being valued at more than $40 billion after it announced it raised more in venture capital. the highest valuation of any private start up. this happened in a quick period

of time. the uber ceo announced it will allow the doe expand particularly in the asia-pacific region. "wall street journal," animal rights advocates lost the battle to declare tommy the chimp as a person. lawyers for the chimp said his owners keep him in a cage all day long and want tommy placed in an animal sanc turn ary. it was ruled the chimp is not a person entitled to the rights and protections afforded by the writ of habeas corpus. >> i feel bad for tommy. >> try a different approach. we got hackers behind the sony pictures data breach.

they posted thousands of company passwords. they've obtained more than 100 documents and files from a folder called password. one of the folders called passwords for social media accounts for "governmentbusters." social security numbers for 40,000 current and former employees as well as celebrities were also exposed like sly stallone. if you were just an employee dating back to say 2000, 2001 you no longer for them and had your records on file you were also part of this. >> it's going to get worse. new york detailies news bill cosby is firing back against a lawsuit that claims he sexually assault ad minor 40 years ago. in los angeles police say they are ready to investigate any allegations against cosby regardless of the statute of

limitations. >> reporter: in legal papers filed bill cosby's attorneys called the lawsuit against him meritless and unsupported claiming it was filed immediately after mr. cosby rejected the plaintiff's outrageous demand for money in odd not to make her allegations money. >> this looks to me like bill cosby is getting ready to wage war in a court of law. >> reporter: cosby is accused of sexually assaulting the plaintiff judy huff in 1974 when she was a years old after meeting him at a park where he was filming a movie he took her to the playboy mansion. cosby said lie about your age and gave her alcohol. she emerged from a bathroom and saw him sitting on a bed and asked her to sit next to him where he molested her. cosby claims she tried to sell

her story to tabloids nine years ago but it was rejected. the huff suit alleges she only realized the lasting damage by cosby. cosby has never been charged by any crime. 20 women have come forward with allegations. >> for years i did not tell anyone about what he had done to me because i was afraid. >> reporter: most of the accusers do not have the option to sue because of the statute of limitations with one suit now working through the courts cosby is fighting back. >> and the navy has now revoked cosby's honorary title of chief petty officers calling him the allegations are serious. coming up the daily colors matt lewis a great piece on why everyone should be disturbed by eric garner's death. he joins us for the must read opinion pages next.

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>> we're talking about fixing entitlements and roland said fix the knicks? >> joining us now, matt lewis. weighing in on the eric garner case. writing in part there might be a temptation to play up the racial aspect of this case and that would be easy to do. i suspect it wouldn't be the right approach. first, of course, there is really no direct evidence as far as i know to buttress this. second it would probably just push pundits and politicians into their respective corners. lastly while i have no doubt african-americans are abused by police far more often whites should not kid themselves and think it would never happen to their sons. could it. your white son mouths off to a police officer could he not end up like garner? i don't know where to begin with

that. was he mouthing off? definitely kind of resisting with his arms up. seem frustrated and quite frankly completely harmless. i take issue with what you're writing. what do you think? >> well, you know because i said -- because if i said it was my son or a white child mouthed off doesn't necessarily mean i think garner was mouthing off. there's a standard very well may be higher. i'm not saying it's fair. i do think that a couple of things, one i can tell you from my own personal experience dealing with police officers when my hair was a little longer and i may or may not have had a grateful dead bumper sticker on my car some of my personal experiences have been half of the officers i encountered were very good people who really cared and the other half were kind of jerks. and i can only imagine -- i was taught also keep your hands up

on the steering wheel. >> right. >> i'm not in anyway comparing the plight of white young folks to blacks but i do think that not only could this happen to white people but it's good for us to know that because i think it's important that we're all invested in fixing this problem. we don't know this was racially motivated. but i think it's good for white people think this could be your child too and all the things that we need to do resolve this -- it's good if we all buy in. >> matt, three months ago, i guess, after ferguson i was talking about how this summer i was hanging out with middle aged white guys who played golf, were republicans and the antithesis socially of people that we're talking about being targeted by police right now and everybody was it is ago round.

all these republicans were sitting around talking about their latest bad encounter with police officers. and the point is not that middle age white republicans have it as bad as 18-year-old black males, they don't. >> how do they define bad? >> by somebody say getting out of a car how you doing and the police officer pointing and shouting at them get the blank back in the car and shouldn'ting at them in the car. >> was the police officer's gun already drawn? >> no. let me get to my point. my point simply is we're talking about a much bigger problem. when there was a medical malpractice back in 1990, '91 and '92 there was training on doctors work on your bedside manner. your profession is in danger. we have a race issue in a lot of these cases but i think we have a real training issue. matt, you got young officers that are given a little bit of

power and they push that power around. it doesn't matter who they are around. it's just a lot worse if you're an 18-year-old black or hispanic male. >> yeah. i think there's no doubt about that, joe. but look, a couple of things. one, if we're going to solve these problems, it's in everybody's best interests we go back to the old civil rights movement model where it's whites and blacks and everybody are united in fixing this problem. part of that is realizing -- >> only in new york. it's happening in new york right now. it's inspiring. >> keep in mind, matt we talk about that old civil rights movement. it was having to witness the persecution that caused folks to say -- this is the 50th anniversary of freedom of summer where folks said wait a minute we had to witness fire hoses and dogs. the reason that eric garner video is so important because literally you can't run from the

issue. i remember 2012 being in south carolina standing out in front of a hotel with eric ericson, we're on cnn, a woman walked up to me and said here's the keys to my car. i looked at her and said who the hell are you talking to. eric said wow. big time conservative. he said roland for years i've heard these stories and i thought black people were overestimating these stories. the eric garner case, folks got to actually witness what they have been hearing and that's what changed the same way birmingham changed. >> i couldn't agree more. that's what i was thinking this week, mika, especially with eric garner that i wonder if you had a case -- you had the birmingham church bombing which jolted white america and made them look at what was happening in alabama and across the deep south back in 1963 and i wonder, matt, if that's not what happened now in the eric garner case if this

isn't the case, if this isn't the video, if this isn't the decision that doesn't wake everybody up. >> i think you're exactly right, joe. i'm seeing a lot of conservatives, it's universal, people speaking out condemning what happened, condemning the grand jury decision. it's incredibly healthy. you also have some action items, police body cams. some standardized procedure about using pepper spray instead of chokeholds. hiring more black police officers. i think we can actually have some real action items and good to come out of this horrible situation. but it's more likely to happen if we are united and don't have people going their respective corners and reflectively white folks defending the police, black folks saying race was the only factor. >> matt lewis thanks. up next a lot of talk about the so-called broken window theory

in the wake of eric garner tragedy. what that theory is and why my next guest says broken window theory is broken. that's next on "morning joe." ♪ ah, push it. ♪ ♪ push it. ♪ p...push it real good! ♪ ♪ ow! ♪ oooh baby baby...baby baby. if you're salt-n-pepa, you tell people to push it. ♪ push it real good. it's what you do. ♪ ah. push it. if you want to save fifteen percent or more on car insurance, you switch to geico. it's what you do. ♪ ah. push it. i'm pushing. i'm pushing it real good!

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debate over the so-called broken window theory. an idea that's cragging down on small crimes will prevents bigger ones happening. here with us now is professor from columbia law school, bernard harcourt. he's also the author of "illusion of order the false promise of broken window theory." >> first give us your general theory why is this an illusion. why does the broken window theory not work. >> there's never been any reliable evidence that cracking down on small disorder reduces serious crime. homicides or robberies or the kind of stuff we care about, violent crime. just never been any reliable evidence for that. there's been a coincidence, a good coincidence, '93 when rudy giuliani -- >> that's what i was going to ask you about. everybody started talking about this because new york city was a

dump-in '91, '93-'94 a radical transformation. >> across the country. >> new york more than most american cities. >> new york was in bigger trouble than most american cities. >> for people at home that haven't picked up on this, broken window theory is if i get somebody for breaking a window, chances are good i arrest him for that even you'll find a robbery attached and possibly a rape, et cetera, et cetera. you get the small crimes lead to bigger crimes. >> the idea is that somehow if you don't attend to those small disorders somehow it will send a signal to the community they can commit major crimes. now, you put an interesting twist to it which is the relationship between someone who might commit a minor disorder and we saw that back in '93, '94, '95, you stop someone for turnstile jumping you might find a gun on rare occasions. so there are those links.

then that becomes available for us to talk about and look at. the real question is whether or not minor disorders probably and that's hat the social science evidence shows has the same causes as major crimes. so it's not one causes the other. >> your saying rudy giuliani was just lucky? he sat down in his seat, the city started governing itself. >> if you look at national trends crime started dropping across the country not justin united states, canada as well starting in about '91. it's been going down dramatically. remarkably. >> what you're saying rudy giuliani has been a great spinster if you will by driving a particular theory and grabbing all of this credit when other mayors could have easily said the exact same thing and we would be lauding them as one of the greatest mayors in history.

>> exact. that's exactly right. it was a spin. broken windows is something that sounds good and it's convenient. notice it has come back in to replace stop-and-frisk. what we had going before under bloomberg was a stop-and-frisk policy. it was not presented as broken windows. the new mayor needed to eliminate that and instead we've come back -- >> what was the spin? the spin is we get rid of stop-and-frisk and crime goes back up. stop-and-frisk went down crime has not gone up. >> by the way, crime has gone down every where. like for chicago, hell chicago is living in kuwait. no it's not. i don't think you're giving rudy giuliani enough credit. >> up have to look at the national trends. >> you're talking about the data. >> come on, don't go there.

>> he's talking about data, joe. >> i'm talking about data to. other cities are not as safe as new york city. >> yes, they are. >> no they are not, not per person. no they are not. >> how do we retrain police in 2014, you've been doing the numbers for 20 years. we're looking at a case where eric garner is selling loose cigarettes. michael brown might have done allegedly knocked off a convenience store and then excessive deadly force is used. he stole some cigarettes. he took some cigarettes. he did a crime that a bunch of us did in college. who cares. he's dead. trayvon was hunted down. had this community policing guy this kid is dead. how do we break it down in modern times to figure out what's going on to discuss this in 2014 because you're talking about 20-year-old data.

>> right. the reason it's coming back up is because broken windows is back on the table. you got to understand that what this policy focuses on are the kinds of minor crimes that also end up being disproportionately targeted for african-american youth, et cetera. marijuana arrests, for instance. marijuana arrests skyrocketed. it's incredible. in '94 there were something like 1800 arrests. here we go. 1800 arrests in '94. 51,000 in 2000. that's broken windows policing. taking the small things the turnstile jumper, marijuana in public view. now marijuana arrests are actually still ridiculously high. and they are higher in the first six months of de blasio than they were under bloomberg so about 28,000 on a yearly basis. the question is, does that really reduce major crime and it

gets tar get on certain people. for significance on those 2000 numbers, 52% of persons arrested were african-american. >> mika, i know you're interested in looking at this. america's top safest cities. number one, safest new york. population 8 million. crime per capita 4.2%. violent crime down 4%. it just reloaded. >> what about wealthiest. >> two is san jose, california. again per capita, obviously. >> i'll give you guys the entire list because this thing keeps reloading. >> there's 300 million people in this country. what you have found, you can look at the trends -- >> you look at safer city and then you talk about wealth and we're talking about safety.

are skewing the data. i'm all about data. >> what you have to understand is across the country during the 1960s crime went way up. and we had a series of drug epidemics, basically. >> and crack epidemic late '80s early '90s. >> which was worse in new york. then you see across the country drops going back to 1960s. also in canada. >> are we as unruly as your students? >> yes. >> all right. the book is "illusion of order." come back. we'll be right back with bill bratton. iast. mmm, a perfect 177-degrees. and that's why this road warrior rents from national.

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and we are asking ourselves aren't these our sons, aren't these our brothers? i'm very pleased that the department of justice will be investigating what happened in ferguson or staten island. those families and those communities and our country deserve a full and fair accounting as well as whatever substantive reforms are necessary to ensure equality, justice and respect for every citizen. >> draft lawrence. i'm going to get bumper stickers and button and draft lawrence o'donnell to run for the democratic nomination.

>> joining us now new york city police commissioner bill bratton. also lawrence o'donnell. and dorian warren. >> lawrence o'donnell will you or will you not run for president? >> i believe it is in my interest to be this coy for a couple of years according to the models before making a definitive statement. i'll consider your question. >> i think you played it wisely by not having a self-serving book that you went around -- >> funny you should mention that. joe this is how i started in this book. this subject we're about to discuss," deadly force." >> are you serious? when did that come out? >> 1939. >> only 30 years old.

>> it's straight out of like 1969. >> that's right. >> definitely the '80s. >> a rare collection. >> if you look at it closely it actually says "deadly farce." >> can we get to the police commissioner. i want to ask him a question. very good to see you. where do we begin. my first question for you is just eric garner, how do you describe how he was killed? was it by police, by policies that put police in a bad position? was the take down the cause of his death by several police officers that surrounded him and brought him to the ground? >> first off you have to understand the process now has moved from the criminal court, the district attorney to the administrative review which ultimately i will make a

decision. i can't talk about whether there's been violations of policies or procedures. >> are there actually questions as to how he was killed? >> yes criminal law question which has been resolved by the grand jury, now the administrative policies and procedures of the department to make a final decision on. >> the chokehold is, is not standard policy, right? that's a violation -- >> chokehold back in 1993, the department issue ad policy banning the use of chokeholds. and there are exceptions. there's many chokehold complaints made against officers. >> what were the exceptions? >> exceptions can be many. was the officer involved in a struggle for his life. was he in fear his firearm would be taken away. was at any time only thing he could overcome. >> were any of these exceptions

present in this case. >> i can't speak to it as i mentioned. i'll be the judge of this officer's fate. >> i understand that. let's go to the press conference. i say i one that because it would be inappropriate for you to pre-judge it because you're the judge of this. let's talk about what you saw yesterday in a press conference the head of the police union saying it was an insult what the mayor said when we all sat "around the table" and i've been very supportive of police officers but at the same time if you are a young black male or a young black hispanic, you have reasons to be concerned that you're not going to be treated as fairly as one of my kids. that's not breaking news, is it? >> in term of the incident yesterday or the comments made by pat lynch the president of the police patrolman's association here in new york city, the pba and then the comments by the mayor both before and after, there is a difference of opinion, strong

difference of opinion. lynch, pat lynch is the president of the union, it's the feeling of many police in this department and around the country that they are now under assault and so they are voicing that concern. >> why do they feel that? >> just watch what's going on in america right now. >> they are there to protect. and it's difficult. >> they are under attack from the federal government on down. and they see it that way, many officers. not all officers. but many. >> do you think they are unfairly, being unfairly attacked? >> in terms of policing -- policing at the moment is under attack. it really is. >> is it fair? >> in terms of the actions of police over time, myself being in law enforcement 40 some years, in 1990s police played a significant role in turning around a tidal wave of crime that of a flekted this country for 25 years. now this city is incredibly safer than it was, the country

is much safer, the downward trends. and that people are tending to forget how bad it was in the work of the police moving forward. the good news where we are now and questioning of how we got safer is that these debates are necessary and we're looking at everything we're doing very closely, our training, our hiring practices. so out of all of this controversy a lot of good will come. >> but did you think that pat lynch's comments were appropriate or do you think he went too far relative to what i thought was reasonably mild comments by the mayor. >> i guess the mayor threw the cops under the bus. >> i don't share pat's belief. i'm very friendly with pat. i get along with my unions very well. i one they have positions they take for their purposes and their needs. i work for this mayor. this mayor cares very much about the police that work for him. he cares very much for stthe citizens we're trying to protect.

this year alone he's given us $200 million for training, equipment, that was not provided in years past. so i have everything i need to try and refocus the department. so you're not going get any complaints from me, from the mayor for the support of the new york police department. >> pat lynch said that daniel pantaleo is a model police officer. he said that having seen the video of this chokehold that led to the death of eric garner. when you saw that video, did you see any model police work by any of the officers on that scene. >> again, as i've indicated i can not comment on the specifics of that case. >> let's bring -- >> but the next day, the next day you immediately announced based on seeing that video that the entire new york city police department has to be retrained. what was it -- >> basically, i was calling for retraining when i was meeting with mr. de blasio before he was

elected. the garner incident, if there was a positive that came out of that was $35 million to do the retraining immediately. we were calling for the retraining of the officers of this department months before. >> i want to talk about retraining more because if you look at the cleveland case, if you look what happened in phoenix and across america training does seem to be a big issue. i want to go to dorian with a question. do you have a question for the police commissioner? >> yes. good morning, if there was one substantive reform that you could implement to really transform the culture in the police department what would it be and how would you overcome the obstacle of say the rank-and-file officers that are represented by the union how would you overcome their resistance in implementing the reform. >> there's not one reform. there's a series of reform and we're doing all of them in the

nypd. we're doing a total change in the training of our young recruit officers and post-academy experience. we're at the same time seek within the next six months to provide three days of training for every member of the department who works the streets routinely to give them refresher training on tactic, take down procedure, on how to interact with the public. we are implementing new policies, body cameras, for example, new technology where every police officer will get a smartphone within the next year. we're also doing significant enhanced community outreach types of activities. i have a civilian advisory board that's advising us on the new training at the academy. there's not one thing that will change this issue. there's a multiplicity of them. we're doing them all here in new york. >> i can ask you one specific numbers question, i'm a numbers guy.

so when you look at the numbers, are blacks killed by police in disproportionate numbers relative to the percent at which they are arrested. in other words when you compare the percentage of blacks who are killed by police to the number of blacks killed by police are those numbers disproportionate. >> i never looked at that particular statistic or figure. >> one reason why you can't -- >> the general sense are blacks are killed way out of proportion by white police but in proportion by which they are arrested, it would probably be similar. >> the truth is -- >> we don't have those numbers.

>> we're all data people i have found this week. >> i want to know. >> there's data that people disagree with. >> we can all agree on this. >> there is no number. what you'll present is a guess. >> so what makes me sad, steve, is i found democrats and liberals, they are math deniers. >> there is no number, joe. >> the fbi -- >> no, they don't. >> the fbi -- >> this is reported -- bill help us. this is reported voluntarily by police -- >> counselor -- >> and then -- >> that's it. it's over. lawrence. >> look at this picture of lawrence. while we're lacking at this picture of lawrence -- >> wow.

>> my mother took that picture. hold that up again. that's my mother's picture. >> i believe it actually. >> what lawrence is saying there's no national requirement for the reporting of deaths by police currently but there are some numbers whose accuracy is in dispute, but we have to work with what we have. >> now we'll have the numbers introduced into evidence. go ahead. >> everybody stop. we're getting these numbers admitted into evidence. steve rattner stayed up last night until 1:00 a.m. in the morning getting these together. let him get them on the show. >> the fbi says between 2003 and 2009 u.s. population, 13% african-american, right. we all know that number. arrests of african-americans percentage of arrests 28%. not surprising. we know it's a higher proportion. arrests for related homicides by police people killed in the course of being arrested 32%

african-american. in other words, slightly higher not as much higher as you would guess i think given a lot of what we've been saying. >> steve, we're looking at the chart now that we figured out how to do this in the control room. tell me what we're looking at. >> the white bar is 13% is african-american. 28% arrested are african-american. higher percentage. 32% of people killed in the course by the police in the course of an arrest are african-american. in other words 32% is slightly higher than 28% not as much higher as you might have gesd. >> shall i tell you what's useless about those numbers? >> that's all right. >> we care about the bad shootings by police. the statistical picture indicates most shootings by police are good shootings, they are provoked shooting, shooting

nos one would contest. what that chart does not isolate or can't its lit are the questionable ones. you begin with a chart of people shot by police who were unarmed. that's where you begin with the cases. those are the ones you want to discuss first. there's nothing in that data that tells you just how disproportionate black victims are in the unarmed cases. >> dorian? >> i just wanted to make the point and ask the commissioner a question because this is a data problem. a lot of these statistics are reported by the police department. this is one of the reforms the white house is pushing out there's an effort for the justice department to collect additional data from police departments across the country on a range of indicators and i want to ask the commissioner his thoughts on that and if new york city will participate and how to get police departments across the country to report data so we

know what we're talking about and not speak late. >> my comment is better late than never. unfortunately money devoted to research has declined dramatically over the last number of years as we know. so anything that can get us more reliable data, statistics is very, very important. we live and die by those numbers, if you will. so, i would be very supportive of much as the same as the uniform crime report that gives us as at least a picture of what's going on in crime up and down the united states, to have accurate numbers here would be very helpful. >> what's your time table. lawrence i'm next and then you'll talk next. mr. commissioner, we don't have teleprompters here and it's a three hour show every day and we make mistakes around the set and i talk too much. i'm embarrassed after every show because i talk too much. i got too impassioned this week.

i cut dorian off. i was rude. i feel bad about that. i go home and bang my head against the wall because i'm embarrassed. but it strikes a real mistake i made this week was not to get a cop in to tell his side of the story to say yes, you hear about the shootings, you don't hear about the fear that i have every night when i go out on my patrol that i may not get home to my three kids. i may not be able to walk my daughter down the aisle when she's married. i may not be able to see my son graduate from high school. talk for those cops right now. i'm embarrassed we haven't done that yet >> you're reinforcing the point i made earlier about cops feeling they are under attack. a muting, if you will, of where they are at. what they see. what they deal every day because the reporting has largely been on this side of the issue. so when somebody like lynch

makes a comment, the bulk of the response is attack at the moment. cops see that. so the balancing would be appropriate. the opening hour here at 6:00 when you guys came on first ten minutes or so a lot of it was about assault on the grand jury system. grand jury system is what we have. those 23 people went into that room, saw all the evidence which none of us have seen, and made a decision based on that evidence and we're all commenting on their actions none of us having seen what they saw. we shouldn't be assaulting the grand jury or the decision if that's the law of the land if we want to change it let's move to change it. but this is a very heated debate. good debate to be having. this is about lives. police lives that are lost due to crimes, about lives black and white lost due to crime.

it's actually a good time for this country to really be digging deep into this issue. with the upcoming presidential elections it will be interesting how the different parties take a stance. >> now to lawrence. >> for your internal investigation into the police department what's your time table for that and how public will that process be. >> there's no specific timetable. it depends upon the amount of information we have to look at. there's about 50 witnesses based on what the grand jury looked at. today we begin interviewing police officers who we couldn't get access to at the request of the district attorney. in a criminal investigation that takes precedence over my administrative. the district attorney asked me not to talk to certain officers until he's completed. that's done. today i think i have three officers coming in today and two more on monday. >> does that interfere with the federal investigation? >> no. i spoke to loretta lynch

yesterday. she will do her investigation separate from mine. she has through subpoena powers access. mine will to be done long before hers. >> your going to talk to them directly today? >> i don't know. i have a prosecutor who leads the investigation. >> one final question, how does lawrence o'donnell keep getting better looking. obviously keep getting better looking. >> i get better looking too. i look at my photos back in the '80s. >> gorgeous. all right. commissioner bill bratton thank you so much. >> thank you so much. we really appreciate you coming. >> still ahead on "morning joe" new rules to crack down on military sexual assaults. are they starting to work or haven't done nearly enough depending on which member of the senate you ask. senator gillibrand is leading

the charge. later chef mario batali joins the table. you're watching "morning joe." ♪ mmm mmm mmm mm mmm mm mmmmmm

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♪ rules to crackdown on military sexual assaults are either starting to work or haven't done enough depending on which member of the senate you ask. a year ago the military adopted sweeping changes but stopped short of taking prosecution out of the chain of command as some had wanted. one year late ear pentagon report shows since last year unwanted sexual contact is down 27% while reporting of incident is up 8%. survivors are generally satisfied with the level of support from their unit commanders and a new special victims council but there were 18,000 cases of unwanted sexual

contact. joining us from capitol hill senator kirsten gillibrand and political director moderator of "meet the press" chuck todd and kasie hunt with us. >> thank you for being with us. kirsten, before we get to sexual assaults in the military which you have been a champion of calling out and bringing to the light, let's talk about what's happening in your home state of new york and would love to get your comments on what's happened on staten island, what's happening in the city right now, what can happen from washington, d.c. to fix these problems? >> well, i think we clearly need a doj investigation and i think loretta lynch is uniquely positioned to do that given her significant civil rights experience along with the trust she has with law enforcement as a reputation of being fair. but people are angry. there are people all across new york who are very upset because they feel like justice isn't working for too many new yorkers

and too many americans so i think we do need to look at this case and i think a doj investigation is appropriate. >> your instinct on the decision and having viewed the tape? >> i mean, in america today a guy who commits a low level crime on the streets of new york city shouldn't end up dead and his family at least deserves a day in court. that's why we need a full investigation by the doj. >> does anybody have any more questions on this? >> senator, it's lawrence o'donnell. i wish bill bratton was still here. he use ad word which police use a lot which is attack saying new york police officers feel under attack by things like what you just said, which is this is questionable, this should be investigated further, this should not end here. does that -- does that feel like the language of attack to you? >> no. i mean, when you have a man who was committing an arguably a low level offense ends up dead because of the use of lethal

force you have an issue and so you have to look at this and we have to make sure training is appropriate, we have to make sure we review the case appropriately. and for the family who is suffering i really believe they deserve to be heard, they deserve a day in court. >> chuck todd, the president over the past several years has not gotten involved in racially sensitive issues as much as some of his most ardent supporters would like. he's gotten in trouble when he says things off the cuff. this is a president with two years remaining that's ready to go there and ready to be aggressive on issues of race. have you noticed that? >> i think it depends on the issue. he was more reticent on ferguson. less reticent on this one. more reticent when the first incident he ever stepped in the one with gates in cambridge but much more -- he was much more

open and wanting to get involved in the trayvon martin situation. so i do think that when there's a debate about law enforcement's role and there's a split on that debate publicly, a divisive debate like in ferguson and cambridge, you see a reticent president. in a situation like trayvon or situation in staten island it's different. i do think the president does feel as if, you know what? one big role he can play is sort of stepping up for what is clearly a mistreatment of young african-american men by law enforcement. >> kasie hunt? >> i have a quick question for you senator gillibrand back on this sexual assault report. retaliation doesn't seem to be down, people are reporting that when they are sexually assaulted in the military they are being retaliated against by their commanders. my question is two fold. first what's the best way do you

think to try and take that number down further and also for you personally when you talked a little bit about incidents of sexual harassmen that you dealt with as a senator you decline to name names. i'm wondering is that at work for you are you personally afraid of retaliation. >> i have no fear of retaliation. the number is alarming. the fact that 62% of men and women who was reported they have been raped or sexually assaulted were retaliated against last year. same number as the year before. if you remember the debate this was the reason that the types reform said you have to let commanders stay in charge they are the only ones to make sure retaliation is reduced to make sure people aren't retaliating for people reporting they were raped. to have that number stay the same shows there's no structural reform, the reforms that are necessary to fix this serious problem aren't there. the other very troubling statistic is that the number of women, the percentage of

survivors who are willing to put their name on the report to report openly and go through a trial actually went down. there isn't the trust in the system that opponents have said there would be. commanders aren't getting the message, aren't getting it right and until you have transparency and accountability and listen to the survivors and see the reason why they aren't reporting they are afraid commanders won't do anything. >> senator, very quickly, the president has nominated someone named antonio wise to be an under secretary of the treasury and i think he's qualified. elizabeth warren a couple of other progressives have come out against him. can you tell us where you stand on antonio wise. >> i hope i get to meet with antonio before the vote so i can assess my own view on his credibility and also on what he hopes to do with his position. i think senator warren very clear. she believes that as the person responsible for how consumers

are affected that his background and his experience doesn't fit the requirements of the job. i'm going to look very seriously at that issue. >> all right. senator kirsten gillibrand, always good to have you on the show. thank you very much. kasie hunt stay with us if you can. chuck todd what's coming up on "meet the press" this weekend >> we're going to do a lot on eric garner. i'll have the new york city d.a. on the show and then do a little on immigration, greg abbott who filed the lawsuit new governor or incoming governor of texas on immigration. >> thank you very much, chuck. we'll see you sunday. up next nasa this moaning successfully launched the orion spacecraft. first step into the new era of deep space exploration. we'll go live next to cape canaveral.

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and liftoff at dawn. the dawn of orion and a new era of american space exploration. >> moments like these were moments that my dad absolutely loved. i grew up watching the apollo missions. and oh, my god, unbelievable. that was the orion spacecraft blasting off minutes ago from cape canaveral. let's bring in our good friend, he watched the launch. jay, how did it go? >> reporter: perfect this morning, joe. it couldn't have gone better. in fact they are in the first of two orbits right now. in the next four hours they will lay the first brick on the road to mars. what's significant about this if they can bring the speedway craft back to the atmosphere at 25 miles per hour in about four hours and with stands all this it will be ready to head into space, make its first trip around the moon in 2018. what this all means is very simply this is the project for the survival of the human race, the human species.

generations of the future will have to be colonized on mars, colonized on the moon and other places in the solar system if this species is going to survive because earth will not support us forever. the first thing that could happen to get us earlier is a sort of disease or ebola comes to mind that we would have to depart earth in order to survive. even if we get to stay here as long as scientists say we may be able to stay here before we go nova again with the earth and the sun dies, our only star dies, then, you know, everything will be set in place for our survival, joe. >> all right, jay. that is a beautiful sight this morning. and some heavy talk about what this may be the first brick on the road to mars and beyond. thank you so much for being with us. we love talking to you to get a followup on monday. straight ahead harjo batali is moments away. but first a failed attempt to

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into one you'll never forget. earn points for every flight and every hotel. expedia plus rewards. secretary of state for public diplomacy and public affairs. i feel so honored to know you. all right. so we'll start with a publishing question. david remnick says what's

happening at the new republic is a tragedy. have you been following this? >> i have not. is this within the shores of america because i'm dealing with foreign policy. >> you're being diplomatic here. >> honestly i can tell you how little i cho about what i used to know of the world. >> yes he used to be in that business running "time" magazine. when you get into government you get lost from the rest of the world. >> the other thing that happens -- >> you have this avalanche of information that comes at you every day and trying to piece through it. you don't see -- i haven't even done that. >> vicinitying to say. henry kissinger says nobody leaves government service smarter than they got into it. i remember when i was in congress working around the clock -- >> by the way i've gotten so much smarter since i've been in government.

journalists compared to regular people they know about ten times as much about the subject. >> except for fact you just don't ever get to read because if you read the front paying of the "new york times" business section you see there's a new republic shakeup. >> is that a paper product. >> a paper product. >> you're so detached from reality. let's talk bureaucrats. >> you're in this media bubble which is what you're attached to. >> this is the front page of the "new york times," man! you're a pointy-headed diplomat or bureaucrat. you've lost touch. so seriously we got a lot of things to talk about. today is one year anniversary of nelson mandela's death. how is south africa doing? >> they are doing okay. they are going through a transition. it's hard to follow in the foot steps of mandela.

>> what are the greatest challenges for that country? >> disequity in terms of the economy. they have so many people that don't have electricity or water. trying to bring those people into the middle class. those people feel that new dispensation isn't working for them. >> let's talk about what's happening obviously we were talking going to break about a hostage that's being held by al qaeda. >> yes. >> al qaeda is now furious. i thought al qaeda was always furious. what's the situation. >> that is a situation that's disturbing. president did authorize a rescue mission. it turns out that he was not there. we did rescue other people. we're very concerned. but we don't actually know all that much about the situation. >> let's talk also about russia, speaking about a guy who is always furious, vladimir putin having to deal with oil prices going down. we had one guest on earlier this week they were afraid putin might be backed in a corner and

more aggressive on ukraine. any evidence of that? >> there's russia propaganda and destabilizing through misinformation. i've been in media my whole life and took me going into government to understand what russia is doing in that sphere. it's amazing. thousands of bloggers that they pay, the box they use. they are trying -- what they do is they use the information battlefield to set up the kinetic battlefield. it's very effective. as a government we a need for a combat that. >> how do you do that? >> one thing we set up in the state department a russian information group that does social media in russia. i'm less concerned about the folks in russia, but the russian speakers on the periphery. that's the swing voters. we need to reach them with our own information and reach them in their own language. >> i want to ask you quickly about the iran talks. obviously those have been

delayed. where do those stand at this point, what do you see as the biggest hurdle? >> we were talking about this yesterday. we are further along than when talks were suspended. i would argue every day that talks go on we're safer because their nuclear program is frozen. we're still making incremental progress and people are hopeful about it. >> the iranian involvement in iraq as well when does that become a problem. are we already there? >> it's not something we welcome. you know, but of course the iraqis command their own airspace. that's an iraqi issue. we want to have as much visibility on that to protect our own folks but it's a difficult situation. >> all right. >> look at lawrence staring at me. >> just watching you in the under secretary role. >> i knew lauren in his government role when he was a radically different person. >> really?

>> yes. >> when he was running around trying to pass a law. >> yeah. >> largest tax increase. >> at the time. >> yeah. >> joe, i got to do one tax increase and it was the biggest one in history. >> all right, rick, thank you for being with us. we really appreciate it. lawrence thank you as well. i'm going to be watching because i always do t"the last word." >> monday night. i'm too weary for my last four words of the week. >> you have to do four hours of tv a week. >> they are actually 45 minutes because of the commercials. i do four of those a week and on friday, you know -- designee comes on "morning joe" on friday morning and does three hours. >> that's why i'm here. >> he does three hours in one day. >> your going to have breakfast? >> we'll see. >> we'll be bright back with

celebrity they have mario batali. he joins the table and we'll see if he knows anything about what happened to "the new republic." i don't think so. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. [ male announcer ] are you so stuffed up, you feel like you're underwater? try zyrtec-d® to powerfully clear your blocked nose and relieve your other allergy symptoms... so you can breathe easier all day. zyrtec-d®. find it at the pharmacy counter. zyrtec-d®. they take us to worlds full of heroes and titans. for respawn, building the best interactive entertainment

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italy is a 50,000 square foot grocery store. it has five restaurants in it. three or four days a week, i walk in, i check in. i see if there's anything interesting. i check around each of the stations. i usually meet with the chef. the italian ideology of food is that simply is better. that is awesome. >> italy is just one part of mario's business empire. here with us now, celebrity chef and entrepreneur mario barteli, the co-author of "america, farm to table." can i have it? >> yes, you can. >> i love it. i love the concept. it sounds healthy.

if i can say that without sounding like a -- healthy should be delicious. >> healthy and delicious go hand-in-hand. the ideology of good products making good food is a traditional thought process. >> louis is here. he loves to eat. >> i love to eat. >> truffles aren't really farmable. they are delicious and they are seasonal and they are right now. >> how do you source quality ingredients? >> you go find them. you taste them. you try to choose things that match your palate. small farming is having a renaissance right now. people ask me how to make delicious food. it's not necessarily buying the right saute pan. for me, it's about buying the right olive oil and the right kale and the right things at the right time of the year. >> you've done really well. knocking on wood. he just knocked on his head, okay. you say you're a victim of

delusional optimism. i love that. >> i just am delusionally optimistic. >> i'm reading your words. i think that's kind of a great way to be. you can be optimistic. women have trouble with being confident. you've got to be. you don't get anywhere without going further in your mind, right? >> if you wake up every morning and you realize you could actually choose happiness and deliciousness, you're in charge of a lot more than people want to admit. just getting up and thinking that way is the first step to being that way. >> if lewis is going to go home and start cooking for his fiance tonight -- first of all, can he do it? can a person who's sort of, you know, self-absorbed do this? >> well, i think i can train a chimp to make spaghetti with clams. i can't teach a chimp to love it. when we talk about identifying our staff, we talk about people would will love no matter what happens. >> what does claire like? >> she loves pasta.

>> pasta is no problem at all. right here, there's a whole chapter. >> she's tough to please. >> i would go to the store. i would see whatever looks in season and inexpensive and as local as possible. cut it into one inch cubes. throw it into 475 oven. take it out. throw it in a saute pan. cook spaghetti been toss it in with that. choose any herb you want. toss it with a little extra virgin olive oil. you will definitely make out by the end of dinner. >> i want you to do that. i want you to instagram it and tag him. am i saying the right term? i want to hear what claire says. >> and i'll wear orange crocs too. >> mario, thank you so much. it's great to have you on the show. will you please come back? thank you for signing this. okay, up next, we just threw him

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this is not the time for activists to turn midtowngested zone. this is the time for tourists to do that. >> good morning. it's friday, december 5th. welcome to "morning joe." with us on set, former treasury official steve rattner. and the host and managing editor of tv one's daily morning show "news one now" roland martin. the president and ceo of the national urban league, mark moriele. how's everybody doing? >> i got some reports some young people in my life went to the protest and they felt like they were witnessing history. they really did. it was -- were you out last night? anybody. >> steve rattner's out every night. >> steve was. >> it's not the same thing. >> notice, i skipped over you, steve. >> exactly. >> no, it's kind of amazing. and it was very diverse. >> you hear the same thing other and over again.

that it is diverse. as mike barnacle said, very inviting. it is really the antithesis of what happened in ferguson when things went back. the entire community. lots of college campuses. >> not the black community but the black community, the white community, the hispanic community, asian-american, everybody coming together and saying enough is enough. we have another story out of phoenix today. yeah. >> first, you do see some of that in ferguson. 100-plus days of protests. of organized protests. >> exactly. >> all of this really is the culmination of a series of cases. even before mike brown. john crawford in ohio. in louisiana. then of course you have a yeyear and a half ago in jonesboro, arkansas. this is enough is enough. this has been building, building, building. so that's why the hands up, don't shoot movement really is

more -- it's way beyond ferguson. >> but, you know, i hope it's not called the hands up, don't shoot movement, because that's -- >> i think for some it is. >> you know what i hope it is. i hope it's the i can't breathe movement. i hope it's the dosh i love this -- this stops today movement. you know why? because that's on camera. the facts are not in dispute. it's actually something that allows us to be forward looking. >> the hands up, don't shoot isn't applied just to mike brown. >> but why even go there? >> as an african-american, you know what my dad taught me, he said, you get pulled over, you put your hands up. that was way before ferguson. >> yeah, that's what -- after trayvon, that's what jean robinson and i talked about. i guess this is what i'm saying, mr. mayor. the facts are not in dispute in staten island. also, i think for most fair minded good americans, the facts are not in dispute.

what we've said here since trayvon, there are two criminal justice systems in america. let's not argue over the facts of this case or that case. let's talk about the facts that are on the ground today for african-american males. and how we have to fix policing. and why i think we need to put -- >> african-american males, latino males. the story that really also wrenched my soul was the 12-year-old boy. because i have a 12-year-old son. and these cases are going to continue to play out because case, and yesterday the cleveland police department signed the decree with the department of justice. interesting information has come out on the background of the officer who was involved. the discussion is going to continue. you're right, it's a broader conversation. i've been struck by how social media and the ability of people to organize through the use of social media has helped to fuel

this movement, college campuses, the streets of cities and the broad diversity of people involved. that's why i think it's so important to continue to have the conversation about the changes that need to take place. >> you mentioned the cop in cleveland. also, what's fascinating, sort of the rift or the difference in agreements, what you're saying between the police union and the mayor. i think it really exemplifies what we're talking about. because there are -- there are good points to be made on both sides. but it seems as if they don't want to come together and really try and figure out how to fix it. i'll get to that in just a moment. for the second night in a row, thousands took to the streets to protest a lack of an indictment in the choke hold case. the holland tunnel was one of several major spots brought to a stand still during the evening rush hour. police say about three dozen people were arrested during

mainly peaceful protesters. other demonstrators carried coffins with the names of alleged police violence victims. the anger is also spreading across the country. as protesters called for justice in cities including chicago, washington, d.c., dallas and oakland. meanwhile, there is both praise and criticism for new york city mayor bill de blasio. president obama praised the response to the protests and new yorkers for the minimal amount of violence that we've seen. the head of the police union says dannel pantaleo is a model officer and de blasio insulted police when he said his african-american son should be told to be careful when he interacted with officers. >> what police officers felt yesterday after that press conference is that they were thrown under the bus. they were out there doing a difficult job in the middle of the night, protecting those

protests, and the mayor was behind microphones like this throwing them under the bus. he needs to support new york city police officers. he needs to say to teach our children, every last one of our children, our sons and daughters, to respect police officers. you cannot resist arrest. because resisting arrest leads to confrontation. confrontation leads to tragedy. >> i said there is a history and there is a reality. a lot of people feel fear. it's not that they should, it's that they do. we have to address it. we have to be honest about it. i don't think denying that reality is going to move us forward. what we're trying to create is a dynamic where every young person of color understands that a police officer is there to protect them and they feel respected and they feel, in fact, they can work with the police. they should want to provide information to the police, et cetera. that's what we're trying to get to. but we're not there yet. i don't think i was ambiguous on

how i felt about st. louis and ferguson as far as the discussions this past week about the questions about the grand jury. but there's one thing, roland, you talked about it before, this is a conversation, again, that jean robinson and i had nonstop during trayvon, before and after. the fact is is it's not just in new york city. it is across america. the conversation that your father had with you is the conversation that most fathers have with their sons. with their black sons. what gene would say, with their black sons. you get pulled over, keep your hands up here. >> the message is don't mess with any police. >> now, of course, if i got out of a car and started moving towards a police officer, they would scream and yell at me. but i am not presumed guilty. i'm not presumed to be carrying

a gun. young black males by too many cops are. >> here's what happened. somebody watching this saying, yeah, but you might have some folks involved in some type of criminal activity. it was middle class african-americans who were being pulled over on the new jersey turnpike in their nice cars. they were saying wait, i'm doing all the right things. i'm not in trouble. i don't have any issues with police but you're pulling me over. so the reality is forget your economic status. they don't see your degree or that brooks brothers suit behind the tinted window. so when they see you, it's a whole different reaction. and what this is also shown, i hear people say, look -- >> i just want to -- again, this isn't new york city. this isn't -- this is all other america. this is -- >> exactly. >> bill de blasio did not throw police officers under the bus. >> i know, i'm wondering what he was doing there. >> -- advocate, but i think he

may have overstated. he may have overstated. if you look at what bill de blasio said, i thought he was measured. >> steve rattner. >> i thought bill de blasio handled it just about perfectly. he kept the city calm. i don't think he threw the whole police department under the bus. he simply said what is a fact. if you have an african-american son, you have to tell him to be careful how he conducts himself. >> if the head of the police union doesn't know that, i'm not sure -- >> the head of the police union -- >> good god. >> to say that officer pantaleo was a model officer is really -- >> he must not know officer pant l leos an background. >> he continued the choke hold while he was on the ground. while the guy was saying i couldn't breathe. there was no need to use that much force.

then he shoved his face into the ground. >> there's people arguing he was saying i can't breathe. that means he was alive. he died. >> i'm sorry, this is -- there are -- and we talk about this when we talk about teacher's unions. there's great teachers. there's some bad teachers. this is for the cops. the great cops. there's some bad cops. you can look at that video. this was not a model cop. >> first of all -- supervisor on the scene. here's the other thing you have to understand. that police union's response, that's why d.a.'s should not be prosecuting police officers. because when they run for office, they're trying to get their endorsement. mayors are afraid of police unions because they have obvious -- not all mayors. not all mayors. they have lobbyists. they have money. they know when the police union comes out against you when you're running for office, the public goes, oh, what's going on. >> that's why the history's been that these federal prosecutions have been more successful across the line. that's why when we talk about

policy change, we really have to look at state grand juries and state investigations of police uses of excessive force and misconduct. and ask if that's really the way forward. >> when you look at -- you look at what's going -- i think the grand jury process, again, and al sharpton talked about this yesterday morn, right off the bat. specifically when it involved cops. i'm not saying it's rigged. you can talk about the politics. also, if i'm a d.a., i'm not going to piss off cops. because i depend on cops to come in, to testify -- >> it's a close relationship. >> it has to be. >> it's a close relationship. it has to be a close relationship. let me tell you something, new york city is safer today than it's been in ages. and so there's a lot of great law enforcement officers up and down doing a lot of really great things. you're right, it's a close relationship. it has to be a close relationship.

that's why when it's time to have a grand jury look at a police officer's misconduct, there has to be an independent -- >> -- amount of details from the grand jury's investigation but the panel sat for nine weeks. they heard from 50 witnesses. 22 civilians. police officers and medical officials. also 60 exhibits admitted into evidence including four videos. police training information. and his medical records. >> this d.a. also didn't have the guts to tell the judge i want this released. so he made the decision. there are d.a.s with integrity. in charlotte, north carolina, jonathan thorough was shot and killed last year after having a car accident, knocking on doors for help. when the cops arrived, he's like, oh, my god, thank you. this guy's seriously injured. they shoot and kill him. the police chief said unjustified. he was arrested and charged. it went to the first grand jury. that d.a. took it to a second

grand jury and he got manslaughter. can go to a second grand jury if they have is the guts to do so. >> we'll all disagree about the grand jury in ferguson. let's talk about this grand jury. we can debate what happened in ferguson. here, this is beyond debate. you don't need to bring in 22 witnesses. you just need to look at video. >> hey, didn't die from -- >> again, it's important for viewers to know. we're not talking about finding the officer guilty. >> right. >> we're talking about -- >> probable cause. it is the slowest standard. everybody always jokes that you can indict a grapefruit. what d.a. in america could look at that videotape and not immediately go, you know what, this needs to be important. >> in both cases, that is, whether the d.a. deviated from standard procedure by not recommending a charge to the grand jury. >> so this -- >> of course they did.

>> this is exactly the point. >> that's the problem. >> which is if you simply put the evidence in front of a grand jury, you may get one answer. if the d.a. goes in, which is i think what happens in the vast preponderance of cases, which is so-and-so excommitted a crime. i think we can disagree about ferguson. the prosecutor made the decision to put all the facts out and let the grand jury decide. in this case, it's hard to understand why the district attorney wouldn't go in there and say, we have an indictable defense -- >> because police officers would be angry -- >> staten island is a community of police officers -- >> i'm not letting the d.a. in ferguson off the hook though. >> and we can say as well, what d.a. -- i'll say this, the d.a. in ferguson. what d.a. doesn't say in the end, i want you to bring me indictment. if you're not going to do that, why go to a grand jury in they

all ask the indictment. a lot of times if they're not poised to ask for an indictment, they don't present emd -- >> ferguson was more complicated, joe. >> no doubt about it. >> it was more complicated but in 23 years as a d.a., bob mccumcku mccullough has never indicted a police officer. >> regardless of the facts in ferguson, we have a conflict of interest. >> john crawford, those two cops were indicted. >> hold on. we have a conflict of interest. you all are saying the same thing. when we have a conflict of interest, guys, between cops and the d.a. >> that's right. >> the justice department and eric holder. but the problem is, the federal government cannot dictate a state prosecution. see, put the pressure on holder,

the president. that's on federal cases. the pressure in new york needs to be on andrew cuomo. it needs to be on the governor in the state. and also changing the state law. >> so here's chris christie on his opinion as to what should happen. you have that, dan? >> by the way, we've got the headline. we just showed it. that actually cuomo is asking to change the protesters in new york. >> you protest what was going on here. policy can now be driven. they need to be also showing up not just on the brooklyn bridge, city council. >> there are some who have a different point of view about this. >> here's new jersey governor. >> as someone who led a prosecuting office for seven years, one of the things i learned is you never know all the things that a grand jury knows unless you're in that grand jury and working with them. so i'm not going to be in the

position given where i stand in second guessing the work of the grand jury. and the prosecuting office that presented that. >> why can't we second guess? >> because, i will say, in chris christie's defense there, as a lawyer, there's a lot of timings i' times i've heard a verdict and say, that's the word verdict ever -- >> we're not, we're not -- >> guy, let me finish. and then you talk to the lawyers. they tell you, it's not that simple. i do understand as a prosecutor, i'm shut you've talked to prosecutors too. where we see a headline and everybody rushes out and decides something. >> i want to respond. the thing is, mccullough invited second guessing by releasing the evidence. >> right. >> the d.a. in staten island invited second guessing by saying i want to release evidence. you are inviting people to form

an opinion. >> don't we want to be transparent? >> grand jury proceedings are typically secret. my question has always been why in these cases did prosecutors deviate. >> right. >> how many times in the past mccullough released the entire proceedings of a grand jury. how many times has the d.a. of staten island gone to the judge and asked for an extraordinary order to -- >> did i not hear beforehand everybody wanted to be transparent, wanted all the evidence released? >> i think it's this, i want -- >> no, i'm asking -- >> that's not what my position would be. my position would be at the beginning there should have been a special prosecutor appointed -- >> that's a different point -- >> but people asking -- >> the ferguson grand jury material -- >> well, why not release the proceedings? >> the d.a. says this is a different circumstance. i need different resources.

what he is saying is i would treat this case differently than others and that's the problem. >> let me ask both of you guys as we wrap up. like in staten island for instance. to even go to a grand jury. >> rare that the target of a grand jury testifies before a grand jury. >> that's happened -- >> the calculation really is if i put my client before the grand jury and my client really expresses remorse, expresses a sense of well maybe this was an accident, that he can -- >> you know what, i just laugh. i'm laughing because no criminal defense attorney would want usually to put their witness up there. >> exactly. >> because the standard is so low to indict you would never let them incriminate. if they're police cases, you're right, somebody says, don't worry about it. come on. >> the prosecutor essentially put on the prosecution.

>> understand, again, just the way the system's set up. you've got the prosecutor who's in an adversary role as the defendant. there's no way a lawyer would ever put -- >> i'm sorry, you said adversary? >> there's no way you would ever put your client there to be cross examined in a grand jury unless you knew they were going to take -- >> in these grand juries, did the district attorney conduct a cross examination? that's what i was joking with adversarial. >> big less sob fron from the h of sony pictures. stay with us.

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time now to look at the morning papers. "the new york times" says at least 20 people are dead after islamic militants took over two buildings in chechnya on thursday. ten police were killed when they stormed the building. storm fled before taking over an empty school nearby. the attack was one of the most violent the region has said in months. it broke out just hours before russian president vladimir putin delivered his state of the nation speech in moscow. >> "the wall street journal" talking about how investors of the popular ride sharing app uber are unfazed by the recent bad press they've received. >> have you used that? >> i have. >> do you like it?

>> it's pretty convenient. there's uber and uber-x, there's two different kinds. >> i'll take the subway or the guys with bikes -- the pedibike. >> then he harasses them. >> i think it's a dollar a block. >> it's kind of expensive. >> it is. >> but it's worth it. >> sometimes i actually pedal and let the guy ride in back. >> uber is being valued at more than 40 million bucks after it announced it raised another $1 billion in capital. this is happened in a really quick period. uber ceo announced the latest funding round in the blog posting that's going to allow the company to expand particularly in the asia pacific region. >> lost the battle to declare tommy the chimp a person. lawyers for the chimp -- well,

he's a chimp. >> they're trying to emancipate the chimp. >> want tommy placed in an animal sanctuary. the new york state supreme court ruled the chimp is, quote, not a person entitled to the rights and protection. >> i hope that didn't take them too long. >> that wasn't a very good approach. >> seriously. >> what are their thinking? >> poor tommy. >> we feel bad for tommy. >> i do. i'm not against animal abuse but try a different approach like saying that's just cruel. >> it is cruel. >> from buzz feed. hackers behind the sony pictures data breach. they posted thousands of company passwords for financial accounts in social media websites such as twitter and my space. more than 100 documents from a folder called password. one of the files contained passwords for the social media accounts. including ghost busters and the social network. the social security numbers of

current and former employees, as well as celebrities were also exposed like sly stallone. the victims reportedly include sly and rebel wilson. if you were just an employee, you no longer worked for them, they had your records on file, you are also part of this. >> i think this is going to get worse. coming up, the latest jobs report is just moments away. the sector being slowed down because they can't find enough workers. >> there's this stigma associated with craft work. and we have to be able to overcome that. >> that story is straight ahead. ♪

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you wouldn't believe what's going on. did you know joe had a band? >> i'm learning that. >> we're going to get to that. first, let's get to business before the bell. cnbc's sara eisen with the november jobs numbers just released. >> coming up, very strong, mika, 321,000 jobs added in the month of november. above 300,000, that was a big

surprise. economists were looking for a number of about 230. 321 is a big headline. that have very solid improvement. jobs created during this month. unemployment, a six-year low. to put it in perspective, a year ago, the unemployment rate was 7.2%. yes, there is progress. if you break down, jim cramer, my buddy's here looking at some of the breakdown and the jobs. help was saying banks very strong. services very strong. you want to see jobs in those sectors being created. manufacturing coming in, up 28,000 jobs. that's also very solid. we're looking for wage growth. i'm going to look for that number. you want to see those jobs being created. and sectors like services, like manufacturing and construction, where we have seen the bulk of the jobs previously being created in restaurants and retail and some of those lower paying. that's the kind of numbers you want to see.

just to reiterate the headline because this is a big one. 321,000 jobs. that's very solid. it's also the 50th month in a row we've seen job creation in this country. the 12th month in a row we've seen plus 200,000. it is the first time we've seen plus 300,000. >> wow. sara eisen, thank you very much. in this economy, there are a lot of people looking for jobs. there's one sector desperately looking for workers. here it is. >> if someone tells you there aren't enough jobs, then they're not talking to the executives at companies like in serve. >> it's difficult to fill that need as fast as the manufacturing is happening. >> in the heart of north carolina's research triangle, high tech sectors like pharma rely heavily on shops that weld the old-fashioned way. and push the boundaries of science. in serve has more than 150

employees and most days they wish they could hire more. >> finding people is probably the biggest restriction on the growth of our business. skilled craftman are at a premium right now. there simply isn't enough of skilled workers to meet the demand over the next 8 to 10 years. >> while many still strive for the traditional four-year degree and all the debt that comes with it, these days work in a factory or on a manufacturing floor is as important as ever. >> we're trying to overcome this stereotype that if you work with your hands, there's something wrong with that. >> the perception of manufacturing is maybe 1930s or 40s carry over. where maybe people think it's dirty and dark and not high-tech. >> nearby, caterpillar is trying to change that perception. >> we have a welding apprenticeship program. programs that ensure that the kids graduating from high school have the skills that we need to

fuel our growth and succeed in the future. >> high school students like adam brooks and caleb jones come here three or four days a week. getting inside the guts of lift arms, pumps and engines. they take classes, get college credit, even get paid. but they don't necessarily plan to go to a four-year liberal arts school. >> it has gotten a bad wrap. but it really isn't. it creates a final finished product that you had an effort. >> he caught the spark early on in his dad's shop. he struggled in his traditional high school so his senior year, he followed his passion. >> i moved from having a whole bunch of friends to having no friends to do something to pursue the career i knew i wanted to do. >> he and 16-year-old caleb took the chance on a brand-new school where they can get high school and college credit in everything from welding to high tech and health care under one roof.

>> it's not a walk in the park. so that's the difference between this high school or other high schools. >> i know when i get out of school, i'll be job ready and start making money right away instead of going and spending more money. i'm not saying it's a bad thing. but college is not for me. >> college may be part of a culture but america's industrial past has to find its footing in the future. >> it's in our best interest to make sure we have the very best people with the right skills available in the workforce for us to recruit and continue to develop and to help us succeed and grow. >> you know, these kinds of skilled labor positions can often pay as much as $80,000 and many now offer a 401k. we should mention caterpillar is the sponsor of our series this week. fascinating. 80,000 is not nothing. >> no, not nothing at all. certainly growth opportunities. talk about where we are now as a country in 2014.

for kids recognizing, you know, mika's got a daughter that just went to college. there are other kids the same age recognizing they don't want to go to school. there are career paths to be made. and why saying skilled labor isn't a dirty word. >> there are jobs and there are jobs. one of the problems is there are too many of the jobs being created. retail clerks. cleaning hotel rooms. things like that. these kinds of jobs are good jobs. you don't have to go -- not everybody should go to a four-year college. i thought the package laid it out clearly. we really need to focus more here on training and skills and getting people pointed at the right jobs for their skill set. >> a lot of ways, i think people try to navigate the economy, feel a little unmoored with all the changes of the past decade. these apprenticeship programs, caterpillar, the other companies, at least it gives people a focus to actually get a job that has a range that is a little bit better than the ones we're seeing across the board. >> it's a lot better. >> it's a lot better. >> medium incomes are $50,000 in

this country. so $80,000 is way above the middle. we need to do more in the public sector as well to get people connected to these training programs, provide more training. you know, government has a role to play here. at the state level. at the local level. even at the federal level. >> with caterpillar, we've been doing this great series. resource sustainability is big business. looking at the jobs that go in coordination with that is huge growth opportunities for those coming u in te ing up in the ne generation. as we look at the future. right? >> you have to match up people with the jobs. that's geographic as well as skills. north dakota and south dakota have this extraordinary low unemployment rate because of the oil boom. people don't move there without some encouragement, without some guidance, without some help. >> after the show today, joe and i want to hear from you. we're going to be hosting a twitter chat sponsored by caterpillar. tweet us questions with #built for it at @joe nbc.

still ahead, live coverage of the president's defense secretary announcement. jose will have that this morning. still ahead on "morning joe," the morning joe house band is in the studio. i can force them in here. we have the debut of a new song written by one of our own. [prof. burke] it's easy to buy insurance and forget about it.

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all right, this is kind special. we have a "morning joe" house band. joe's been writing songs for years and he lost a bet and i said if you lose, you have to come in and perform one of your songs. which you've been writing songs for years. >> as the old joke goes. >> but you're actually putting together an album, like 30 songs. >> we were going to do like ten and these guys are so great, we do about ten a day. >> i know, believe me.

>> the pace is really insane. >> it's actually an explanation as to why joe's strung out on the air. >> three days on air -- >> so you're going to sing time rolls on. what's this song, what's it about? >> you know, this is dedicated to a certain generation. okay, i'll say, i saw the big chill. i get it. you went to woodstock. probably should have stopped talking about it. this is like time rolls on for the rest of us. if you were there in the 60s, you just keep talking. >> we're going to hear time rolls on now. with joe scarborough. >> the words aren't really that -- >> nick, ryan, steven. >> by the way, look at this thing. >> i can't wait until you guys see this. >> we get attacked by police, maybe it will go viral.

we just need your mom and dad. >> all right, let's hear it now. take it away. ♪ anybody seen my old friend bill ♪ sweet sing hippie we all knew as jill ♪ ♪ left his home on friday night ♪ ♪ got lost and drunk and into a fight ♪ ♪ heard he followed the dead around for a year ♪ ♪ anybody seen my old friend jay ♪ ♪ the sweet lounge lizard who danced like sugar ray ♪ ♪ left his bar one friday night ♪ ♪ got lost and drunk and into a fight ♪ ♪ heard he follow ed for a year♪ ♪ while we say ain't it cool how

time rolls on ♪ ♪ but not for me ♪ not for me ♪ yeah we say ain't it cool ♪ how time rolls on ♪ but not for me ♪ low not for me ♪ oh, brother t ♪ play it ryan ♪ all the hipsters ♪ all the losers ♪ all it the freaks ♪ ♪ shuffle around like shadows on book end streets ♪ ♪ dreaming of their glory days ♪ when peace and love was just a hit away ♪ ♪ funny how the buzz never seems to fade ♪ ♪ we sing ain't it cool how time rolls on ♪ ♪ but not for me

♪ yeah we say ain't it cool ♪ how time rolls on ♪ but not for me ♪ oh not for me ♪ ♪ screwed up situation ♪ ♪ no matter what your dad might say ♪ ♪ it's just a loser generation ♪ that slowly died while they sing ♪ ♪ while they sing ain't it cool how time rolls on ♪ ♪ but not for me ♪ ♪ we say ain't it cool ♪ how time rolls on

♪ but not for me ♪ whoa not for me ♪ we say ain't it be cool ♪ how time rolls on ♪ it's cool how time rolls on ♪ snoiain't it cool how time ro on ♪ ♪ not for me ♪ oh not for me ♪ oh brother t ♪ ♪ all right. >> up next, what, if anything, did we learn today? >> i learned nothing. absolutely nothing. >> not bad, not bad. >> thank you, that's great. denver international is one of the busiest airports in the country. we operate just like a city, and that takes a lot of energy. we use natural gas throughout the airport - for heating the entire terminal, generating electricity on-site,

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better. that's just human nature. oh, yeah. that's why those real housewives are so well behaved. folks, i got t tell you, it doesn't make any sense. this theory is clearly bull hockey. turn often my cameras. okay. camera off. i'll prove my behavior is unchanged. excuse me, little cough. can i get some water? thank you. can i get some water. here you go, steven. >> what is this, tap water what is this? >> ow. >> read your contract. i take my water at 54 degrees, twist of lime, no eye contact. >> no, not the sword. >> taste my blade, you curr. >> ah! >> that's hilarious. time now to talk about what we learned today.

thomas, i'll start with you. >> i want to save time for gabriel and joey because this is our page and our intern and they're both leaving us today. gabriel's going back to the page program. joey's going to bravo. >> we're going to miss you guys. >> ratner? >> i learned when joe gets tired of getting up at 4:00 in the morn, he has a new gig where he can go to bed at 4:00 in the morning. >> all these guys come home from work when i get up to go to work. >> it's actually unbelievable, the hours. how do you all like working with joe, 8, 10, 12 -- >> oh, stop it. >> nick, what have you learned today? working with joe? go. >> i learned can still remember the chords of the song after two hours of sleep. >> there you go. >> you literally work around the clock on this music. >> oh, we love it. it's not work. it's a lot of fun. everybody has a great time. >> will you do this every friday? >> it may be the only way for me to not take off on fridays. but, i mean, the sound guys were

so good. if they're this good, we'd like to be the house band if that's okay. you do the show and -- >> what do you think, "morning joe" house band? >> but also we're going to be in your local subway. >> we're going to -- and maybe you'll get a basket of money, you never know. >> we would like that. we would like that. as least one of us is a republican. when it's way too early, it's "morning joe." stick around, because "the rundown" with jose is next. good morning, i'm jose diaz-balart. developing on "the rundown," a critical cabinet announcement at the white house. president obama will make it official, nominating ashton carter as the head of the defense department. if confirmed, he will be the fourth under president obama, the most for any one president since harry truman. the ceremony is at 10:10 a.m. just over an hour from now in the roosevelt room. we'll of course bring you that' nouncement live right here on

msnbc. meantime, outgoing secretary chuck hagel is speaking out about his resignation. and why he agreed with the president that it was time to go. >> this was a mutual decision based on discussions we had. we both came to conclusion i think the country was best served with new leadership. >> nbc's kristen welker is live at the white house this morning. >> jose, good morning to you. >> can you set the stage for us today? >> absolutely. look, 60-year-old ashton carter is a nuclear physicist. he's also a former deputy defense secretary with a long history at the pentagon. and his nomination comes at a pitch tall ti pivotal time. a number of critics saying the administration has been slow to respond to a series of crieses abroad. this move is an