welcome to "the reid report." i'm ari melber. joy reid is on assignment. there's a new report out on cia torture and investigation. led by dianne feinstein, the senate release aid detailed 500-page excerpt of this report finding that the cia's torture after 9/11 was ineffective. that the cia misled congress and used inaccurate information to defend this program. the report also finds it was poorly managed and that the techniques were more brutal than the cia had said. senator feinstein also addressed the critics who were against releasing all this new information. >> history will judge us by our commitment to a just society governed by law and the willingness to face an ugly truth and say never again. >> what can you tell us? >> well, ari, this report as you were saying was broken up into a

few different categories. among the issues it addressed and looked into was the attempted, if you will, notification of the president at the time, president bush, to see whether or not the cia attempted to brief the president about the enhanced interrogation techniques and whether or not the president knew about it. there's an attempt by senate intelligence committee about the who and when, but in those important themes the enhanced interrogation techniques were not effective. they cited an example which an individual considered the mastermind of the 9/11 attacks were given up by a previous detainee. that information did not come through torture or enhanced interrogation techniques but, rather, was given voluntarily at the time. the report tries to kind of break down into some of these themes, but importantly, address some of the issues over the past several years have constantly been coming up, whether or not

torture is effective and whether it produced any actionable intelligence. there are also examples, in the report, examples of the brutality of some of these enhanced interrogation techniques, including the use of a power drill to intimidate one of the detainees. that was cited as an example of how brutal some of these tactics were. there was also the revelation that the cia had paid up to $80 million to two psychologists who were involved in the design of the enhanced interrogation program. so, the documents -- the report, the extensive report, very revealing in a lot of different ways, new ways. but at the same time, it is being criticized by former members of the cia who have come out and defended their actions. >> we're going to get to that as well. thank you. we'll check back with you for new information on this throughout the hour on this developing story. now, the senate intelligence committee originally held a bipartisan vote to pursue this very investigation. some of that unity was actually on display today as senator john mccain welcomed the new report.

>> the truth is stinlz a hard pill to swallow. it sometimes callses us difficulties abroad and at home. it's sometimes used by our enemies in attempts to hurt us, but the american people are entitled to it, nonetheless. they must know when the values that define our nation are intentionally disregarded by our security policies, even those policies that are conducted in secret, they must be able to make informed judgments about whether those policies and the personnel who supported them were justified in compromising our values. whether they served a greater good or whether, as i believe, they stained our national honor. did much harm and little practical good. >> nbc's luke russert following

all this on the hill. you look at that address, luke. it struck me as historic, much of the points senator mccain was making. and really cuts against the idea that this is a purely partisan exercise today. >> ari, on your point right there, i think when historians look back on this report, the speech won't be dianne feinstein's. it will be john mccain's right there. i mean, those words were so poignant and so directed at really his own party, who may say that this was a political witch hunt. i was going through the gop response. they said that, you know, this report did nothing to improve interrogation. that it gave the false impression the cia misled policymakers, no interviews of key witnesses. a laundry list of problems they had with the report. then john mccain goes out there and pretty much says, you know what, this was a stain on our national conscious and something we need to definitely improve on. as far as on the democratic side, ari, i was struck by one

senator in particular's response who said -- harry reid said this is what was going on in the bush administration was wrong. john rockefeller, west virginia, former head of this committee, said that he was very troubled by how much the obama administration deferred to the cia in the last few years, the investigation regarding this report. showing you are the legislative branch and the executive branch, but no matter republican or democrat, when they get to the executive branch, the cia relationship troublesome to lawmakers on capitol hill, ari. >> great point. we talk about separation of powers a lot. this is one where cia versus everyone else is part of the tone here, not just the party's. thanks for your reporting today. >> reporter: take care. be well. >> we go to the white house with chris jansing looking at the new reaction to the report. what can you tell us? >> reporter: i just got out of a briefing. five senior administration officials giving us point by point through this report and also answering some questions. they've been saying for a while now there was never going to be a good time to release this report.

and i think they pointed out some of the reasons why. they anticipated the difficulty. first of all, they said they have hope and confidence that foreign governments will understand that they're doing the right thing. they've been in touch with them. they've been briefing them on this report. but clearly, there are some concern about both what our allies and nonallies will do with information contained in this report. they added to what we already knew, there was stepped up security. they said they, in fact, reviewed the security posture in every single american post around the world. they have also been in touch with state and local law enforcement because of concerns that something might -- there might be some reaction here. in fact, they're monitoring social media very closely. so, the question becomes, why release this report? that was the argument some republicans were making. here's what the president said in a statement today. let me read to you from the one page statement the president put out. he says, the report documents a troubling program involving enhanced interrogation techniques.

it reinforces my long-held view these harsh methods were not only inconsistent with our values as a nation. they did not serve our broader counterterrorism efforts or our national security interests. so, to the debate over whether or not it really added to actionable intelligence, which the white house does not believe there were other ways to get whatever intelligence was gleaned from the interrogation techniques, they are saying that's not relevant. this is not who we are. this is not what we stand for. they say going forward, they hope that the release of this report, the transparency involved in it, will help bring public opinion around to push future administrations to not engage in these kinds of interrogation techniques. >> chris jansing, thank you. joining me from nbc news richard engel and center for constitutional rights, attorney bahair. thank you for being here. richard, let me start with this point on what was said, whether

it was true and how that led to the authorization. reading from this senate report, they say prior to september 2006, the cia provided inaccurate information to the committee and they say later briefings after there was public disclosure also contained numerous inaccuracieinaccuracieg how the techniques were applied. finally, most importantly, the report notes doj didn't do independent analysis of the information they received from the cia and warned if the facts provided by cia were to change its legal conclusion, its supposed authorization for some of these activities might not apply. >> i think you're addressing one of the key parts here, is what did the senate committee know and when? we've spoken to many people, both bob and i, who were involved in this program, who were senior officials at the cia. some of them who are listed in this report. and they say that time and time again the senate committee was briefed. and that the president was briefed.

and that the -- all levels of political leadership were getting this intelligence and in many cases asking for more intelligence. they knew this program was going on. now, what specifically they were being told? these were in closed-door briefings. don't know if they didn't felt they were being given enough. if they later learned other details. when you look at this in history, after this came back, and i think i -- i was struck by what luke russert had to say with the speech that's going to be remembered, it's going to be john mccain's speech. that was a strong moment there. but when you look back at this, you can't really defend the torture. if you're defending the actual practices which were laid out in brutality here, you're going to go down a very dark path. you'll say it was a good thing to waterboard these people, to subject them to rectal feeding and disgusting practices that are not part of our value systems, but are you -- you go down that path, you're going to

end in a rabbit hole. if you go down another path that says, we asked the cia to do this, the government knew what was going on, the government liked the intelligence, and then comes back and says, now we're going to persecute you for this, we're going to hold a witch hunt. >> that's the question. you say was the cia asked to do it. let me bring in bahair, what you have here, according to cia records, no cia officer including the directors, briefed the president on these specific techniques before april 2006. so, you have a president go through an entire term of office, and according to cia documents, not being in the loop on what they were doing. >> yeah, i mean, i -- i would question the premise that we asked the cia to do this. certainly, i don't think the american people asked the cia to systematically break u.s. and international law and subject several dozen human beings in our custody to the brutal,

almost medieval torture techniques. and whoever asked them to do this is as culpable as the cia officers who undertook the -- responded to the request, because there should be no doubt this conduct is unlawful, in addition to being contrary to our values. >> let me go to bob. where does that leave the cia? >> i think one thing the former officials will tell you is that the cia may not have briefed the president before 2006, but they had briefed the national security advisers, steve hadley, cons le condoleeza rice and it's not normal for the cia to brief on the very detailed things we're seeing here. that they believe, the former officials, that they had met the requirement by briefing the national security adviser, who in turn had briefed the president. >> but i don't think that washes. you look at this report and you see a system of management that is clearly not working, richard.

you see donald rumsfeld out of the loop. you see cia officers telling we're not going to tell collin powell because this would upset him. you have a management of this program that raises questions about the security process. >> you have a management of a secret program is that is ugly, that people don't to want talk about, that they are deliberately not trying to talk about. by the way, we have the same program right now in the drone program. the drone program, we kill people regularly. i appreciate what your guest was saying. when i say we, i meant we as the american establishment. >> the government, yeah. >> the government. the american government has a program droning people, that is just as problematic morally as the interrogation program. >> let me go to baher -- >> and many people are deliberately being kept out of the loop. >> that goes to espionage and clandestine operations. what should people make of this? what should be done now?

>> i think people should recognize that there was, i would say, a criminal conspiracy involving dozens of u.s. officials to break u.s. law and cover it up in recognition of the illegality and that we should reopen very serious criminal investigations into breaches of our most basic domestic and international law obligations. >> here on this important day, thank you for your time. you can stay with msnbc. we'll continue to go through these details in the cia torture interrogation report and valerie plame joins me next to discuss how this might impact the agency and our ongoing counterterrorism efforts.

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when we are consistent with the values we assert, think of the countries who be willing, willing, to say we made a mistake. we made a big mistake and to make sure it never happens again, we're going to let the whole world know the mistake we made. it will never happen again. >> that was vice president joe biden moments ago with reaction to this new senate cia report. joining me is valerie plame, former cia covert operative. good day to you. what did you learn from today's report? >> good day to you as well. happy to be here. this is a huge day in our history. as vice president biden just said, how important it is to let the world know that we're looking at the -- through this report, what we did that was so wrong, so off from our values we

hold dear and it's never going to happen again. >> let me read to you some of this rebuttal from former cia directors. they're describing the program, disagreeing with the findings in this report and saying it led to the capture of senior al qaeda operatives, removing them from the battlefield, disrupted terror plots and added to what we knew about al qaeda as an organization. but not really digging into the details that are so exhaustively put forth here, that suggests many of those types of claims we've heard for years to justify these programs were highly exaggerated and misleading. what do you make of that back and forth today? >> notice that those that are defending the use of torture, and i don't like to use that you' euphamistic term. they're the ones that were involved in it. and what we have is a really --

we're at a place now where we need to say that this was absolutely wrong. i read an op-ed piece by jose rodriguez in "the washington post." he was in charge at the cia when these programs were undertaken. and his argument was, well, you know, we at the cia were told to do this and we got legal justification, and so we went ahead and doing it and now you're pulling the rug out from underneath us. the problem with that argument is that it really went out of fashion, i think, with the nurenberg trials, that we were just following orders. just because a government lawyer says something is legal, does not make it so. and this is -- the fact that, you know, we've done these things and they say it's legal completely -- it holds no weight whatsoever. >> right. >> it's wrong. it goes against who we are. >> to that point, if you deceive your lawyer to get your

clearance, you and your lawyer have a problem. but it doesn't mean that what you lied about is legal, right? and so one of the key series of allegations that is documented in many ways here is the notion that the justice department lawyers were repeatedly told things, and i was mentioning this earlier in the hour, that they even said at the times they wrote their memos, if these facts change, our advice and authorization may change. certainly they did. i just to want read one part from the new report on how brutal this was. it says, the cia led several detainees to believe they'd never be allowed to leave custody. they suggested to one detainee he'd only leave in a coffin. an interrogator told another he would never go to court because, quote, we can never let the world know what i have done to you, end quote. also from the report, cia officials threatening at least three detainees with harm to their families, including threats to harm the children of a detainees and to sexually abuse the mother of a detainee and cut her throat. why do you think so many people in washington are talking about whether that is effective,

whether u.s. officials threatening sexual abuse and murder to civilian innocents is effective as opposed to how it's illegal and wrong? >> the report, which i've only had a chance to take a quick look at the summary, it's absolutely repugnant, it's brutal. this was done in our name, the american people's name. then, of course, the question becomes, well, was it effective? this is a huge debate. there's absolutely been -- i completely refute the notion that, in fact, it led to some great breakthroughs in our intelligence and kept american lives safe and so forth. those details are sketchy in great dispute. and in any case, if it's done -- if we do this, if we torture and do these programs, however you want, whatever you want to

classify, sleep deprivation, waterboarding and so forth, that -- if we do that, that makes us on the same level as our enemies. >> right. >> and i don't think that's who americans think that's who we are. >> yeah, that is well put. you were obviously, as many remember, caught up in a lot of this. there's an exchange in the report about the way that secretary powell and rumsfeld were initially also kept out of the loop. i want to read to you one part and get your thoughts because you know so much about the intrigue and rogue efforts in that period. it says national security council principles in 2003 concluded it wasn't necessary to have a full principals meeting to reaffirm the program and the cia e-mail noted that separate from the official response, it's clear to us from some of the run-up meetings we had with white house counsel that the white house is extremely considered. secretary of state powell would blow his stack if he were to be briefed with what's been going on. what do you make of that, the north notion that the heads of state and defense were deemed,

somehow, inappropriate, out of the loop for these programs? >> yeah. it's hard to comprehend, isn't it? general powell, in fact, did come out later very unequivocally said torture it wrong. he was right. he would blow his stack if he knew about it. i find that this is just -- makes me terribly sad that -- people talk a lot about -- those that defend the report talk a lot about, well, this wasn't in the context in the weeks and months and years immediately following 9/11. it was a different context and so forth. that is when things most leak, that is when you are called upon to look at your values and go, is this who we are? how are we going to respond? and we failed. and that's why this report, for -- it has many flaws.

i don't really understand why it costs $40 million and why they did fail to interview some of the principals involved. i don't understand the politics behind that. >> doj said they wouldn't allow the interviews. go ahead. >> well, in any case, this is part of the story. this is the truth of what happened. and i hope it serves a message to the rest of the world that we are a great enough nation to look at the places where we have gone wrong and said, this is not going to happen again. i understand that across the world marines and our embassies and our military is on high alert because somehow this report is going to cause people to be angry with americans. i think that moment has passed. news flash, they're already terribly angry with us because of what we've done.

i don't believe it's going to incite any more people to be any angrier than they will are with how we conducted ourselves and our foreign policy, particularly in that time period. >> valerie plame, former cia agent, you were there, i thank you for your perspective and expertise on this important day. appreciate it. >> thank you. >> we are also listening in right now to some republican senators who are giving some of their first on-camera reactionses to the report. we'll have more on that ahead. as we go to break, a look at social media reaction to the senate's report. this includes from, swas well, some other members of congress. >> it seems as though the study portrays the cia in the worst light possible. presupposing motivations and

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you're watching "the reid report." up next, we're talking human rights, counterterror and diplomacy. former ambassador to the u.n. bill richards is here with a global view on the cia torture and interrogation report. ♪ earlyfit ♪ latefit ♪ risefit ♪ fallfit ♪ ballfit ♪ wallfit ♪ pingfit ♪ pongfit ♪ pingfit ♪ pongfit ♪ rowfit ♪ throwfit ♪ slowfit ♪ olliefit ♪ oopsfit ♪ otisfit ♪ thiswayfit ♪ thatwayfit ♪ daddyfit ♪ pappyfit ♪ datefit ♪ weightfit ♪ goalfit ♪ gooooooalfit ♪ stepfit ♪ stairfit ♪ smartfit ♪ heartfit ♪ spinfit ♪ bikefit ♪ hikefit ♪ yikesfit ♪ wheeeeefit

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long-time hawkish ally, spoke out in a pretty historic speech today on the senate floor. >> what is true is that actionable intelligence that was, quote, otherwise unavailable, otherwise unavailable, was not obtained using these coercive interrogation techniques. >> msnbc's joy reid is out on assignment but she learned new information about attorney general's eric holder's reaction to this report. joy joins me by phone. what can you tell us? >> i spoke with a senior administration official who made the point that the information that is new to the public, newly declassified intelligence report, is not news to the attorney general's office. in fact, in 2009 the attorney general's office investigated this same information to answer the question of whether or not there was a prosecutorable crime. what they found is because of the amount of time that passed

and what that does to witness testimony and reliability of information and because of those olc memos that people relied on in good faith when they were conducting what former administration called enhanced interrogation, because of these two factors there was not a practicable case to be made. that there was not a criminal case that could be made, that could actually be successful in court. so, it is true that the administration is not looking at -- the attorney general's office is not looking at a prosecution, despite the calls from organizations like the ccr, despite calls from people within the united nations. that there just wasn't enough there between those two factors. >> joy reid, i know you're working on a couple stories out there. thank you for joining us. you'll be back in the chair tomorrow. we'll see you then. i want to turn right now to bill richards richardson, former u.s. ambassador to the united nations here on this day. how are you, sir? >> fine, ari. nice to be with you. >> great to have you here. i was speaking with valerie plame earlier and she was

talking about the brutality and details exposed in the summary of the report that's been released. what your thoughts about this report and what do you say to americans who look at this today and say, okay, i get it. it was awful, but it's over, in the past. why are we dealing with this now? what more is to be done? >> well, to the american people i'd say, we can't keep doing this. torture, this kind of interrogation is not the right way to get information. i think the main conclusion is that it produced no results. no, quote, actionable intelligence. but it is a sad day. first, what is very obvious is the bad blood between the senate intelligence committee, the democrat senator feinstein, very respected and the vooi, john brennan. they obviously have had difficulty. secondly, it is going to be damaging to u.s. prestige abroad, overseas. the world's leading democracy, f

torturing people. third, the big danger is in embassies like syria, like egypt, like yemen and the middle east, you know, it will enflame pakistan, it will inflame demonstrators and our people hopefully will not be at risk but our installations might be. you know, it's not a good day. >> and, ambassador, what do you make of people who look at this and say, gosh, it doesn't seem like anyone in the national security apparatus in washington was very good at oversight, to put it mildly? i want to play some sound here again from that speech by senator feinstein today, where she talks about something that anyone, who's seen a ""law & order" episode, can see as problematic, which is people who have made videotapes of controversial government action and then destroyed the evidence before it could be reviewed. take a listen. >> director hayden stated that if the committee had asked for the videotapes, they would have been provided. but, of course, the committee had not known that the

videotapes existed. and we now know from cia e-mails and records that the videotapes were destroyed shortly after cia attorneys raised concerns that congress might find out about the tapes. >> did i miss the day in law school where the cia gets an exception where it can destroy evidence, unlike everybody else? >> no, they shouldn't have done that. you know, i served on the house intelligence committee. detention with the cia, disclosure of documents information is always a problem. you know, the cia is a secret intelligence agency. their tendency is not to come forward. but at the same time, i want to defend the cia. there are a lot of men and women there that work hard, that take risks. the fact is that this cia operations of torture were authorized. they were authorized by the president. that doesn't make it right. that doesn't make the policy correct. but i think we should learn from

this heightened transparency -- >> but, obama -- >> better disclosure, better -- >> let me ask you about that. how do you fix that, if you say as you did at the beginning of this interview, it should never happen again but in the middle/end of this interview you're telling me because the president or others signed off on things we already knew were illegal, violated geneva, that were brutal, how do you square that it shouldn't happen again but everybody gets away with it? >> well, the fact is that the president did authorize it. now, the problem is the disclosure to the congress. there are very few members of the congress that would get this information. disclosure has to be increased. there's got to be some kind of approval by the congress that involves this kind of operation. we have to develop that because the prestige america will suffer today from these disclosures is going to be huge. not just in the middle east, not just putting our installations at risk, but around the world.

and i give credit to president obama, who has stood behind the efforts to stop these efforts, and have a message that america is open, that we're transparent, that we're a democracy. and that this won't happen again. that's the best you can do on this very sad day, ari. >> all right, diplomat and governor bill richardson, thanks for your time. still ahead, we'll talk about whether the details of how the u.s. government did mistreat and torture these suspected terrorists. did it hurt us and can it hold us back in the war against our enemies overseas? terrorism expert lith will be here. ♪ you don't need to think about the energy that makes our lives possible.

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world. we don't have any specific information or intelligence to show that there is anything out there that would lead us to do anything beyond high alert right now. >> that was defense secretary chuck hagel on the potential effects of this newly released senate cia torture and interrogation report. laith alkhouri is a senior terrorism analyst for flashpoint. good day to you. >> good day to you. >> number one, is the release of this report a threat right now abroad? is it creating danger? >> i don't believe so. i think actually our current drone program is a lot more damaging to the u.s. reputation overseas than this report. >> why do you think -- sometimes we ask silly questions in the news. given our drone program or our support of allies like israel, right, or other transparency issues where we reveal all sorts

of things about our government, local, state and federal, and why would mike rogers say i fear this will enflame our enemies and he said that's a reason not to release it. why would we do it on this one? i think first and foremost, i think the transparency part is absolutely crucial in order for us to give the image we're actually conducting investigation on such actions that were taken by the cia and even by operatives that did not even probably have the right to conduct what they conducted under these interrogation tactics. >> do you think chairman rogers is being very selective from a security standpoint? >> i think so. it might inflame some of the anti-american sentiment overseas, but it's only a tiny part of anti-american sentiment. it's already very fueled out there in eastern libya, in egypt, in southern yemen. it's already very fueled. this is just a confirmation to what they already know. but the other part of this is

the criticism here is that the united states is preaching human rights overseas, preaching democracy overseas, yet it is not practicing that at home in its own agencies. what jihadists might do is capitalize on those details to say there is huge distrust in the american government. >> what do you make when you see these isis videos with the orange jumpsuits, a nod to guantanamo, or that attempt to say by them that we are like them, which in many factual ways we are not. the senate report reveals all these problems and yet we are still a nation of laws that can do some accountability, unlike a state like isis. there's nothing to compare there. but that seems to be part of their arg aumeument. >> look, there's a lot of released guantanamo bay detainees who released information about the treatment they had undergone. so these details have already been out. this is just a confirmation to what people already know.

we need to be treading very careful, we need to be vigilant to our diplomatic missions and embassies overseas and take protective measures against any inflammatory remarks that might rile up people to either attack an embassy or diplomatic mission. >> what do you make of the breakdown in this report of who these individuals were? because the number is a little larger than bush officials said. then concerningly, about 21% of those folks, according to the government's own documents, were not there. they were, according to the words of the report, wrongfully held or not high-value detainees that fit the targeted definition. again, you're here as a expert security. is that an error rate people should be comfortable with or uncomfortable with? >> i think people should be paying attention to all of the names and people they might view as victims versus actual terrorists. you know, in the grand scheme of things, again, we look at these details that have come out about

the people like zubada who was waterboarded over 83 times to extract nothing in the end. so, i think these are the details that jihadists and many terrorist groups are going to be capitalizing on specifically. >> laith alkhouri, thank you for your expertise today. when we return, we'll discuss the value of releasing this report, the threat the details can pose to members of the military and how the military views all this. alrightl arthritis lasts 8 hours, but aleve can last 12 hours... and aleve is proven to work better on pain than tylenol arthritis. so why am i still thinking about this? how are you? aleve, proven better on pain. i have $40,ney do you have in your pocket right now? $21. could something that small make an impact on something as big as your retirement? i don't think so. well if you start putting that towards your retirement every week and let it grow over time, for twenty to thirty years, that retirement challenge

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there is no shortage of people who will cut your heads off, and the techniques in question are nowhere near what the enemies of this nation and radical islam would do to people under their control. there is no comparison. the comparison is between who we are and what we want to be. >> that was republican senator lindsey graham reacting to the

cia report. that was an hour ago on the senate floor. we'll get right to that with msnbc military analyst, colonel jack jacobs. good day to you. >> same to you. >> let's start with lindsey graham making the point saying, hey, we're in different battles against terrible people who observe no rules. that's not the point. the point is our rules and whether we lived up to them. what from a military perspective did you take from today's report? >> let me establish my experience in this region. i've been in charge of, i've had under my control prisoners in combat. and i can tell you, you get far more from these guys if you give them cigarettes and medical care than beating them up. if you beat them up, they'll tell you exactly what you want to hear to stop what you're doing. the quality of information you get by giving people a hard time is very, very low. having said all that, i think it's the height. hypocrisy to release a report for a wide variety of reasons that says that it's a bad thing

to waterboard people. on the other hand, we're in the process of sending drones to blow people up. some of them we don't even know for sure. as bob kerrey said this morning on andrea's show, it would appear that dianne feinstein thinks we would be much better off taking sheikh mohammed, moving him to a hut with his family out in afghanistan and dropping a bomb on it. that's not the same thing. >> but there's a reason for that. it may not be a satisfying reason, but under the laws of war, when you have someone in custody and they're no longer a live threat, you have a greater duty to protect their lives and we don't allow -- >> my argument is not whether or not you are supposed to torture people. i believe very strongly it's not a good thing to do. my argument is whether or not you're supposed to release the report. and i -- >> and the report's out, though. it's out. >> it's certainly out now. but it didn't have to be out now. think about this, five years

from now, a different administration, a different congress, decides -- a different intelligence committee decides it's going to release a report about using drones to do signature attacks on people we don't even know. then all the people who are involved in this today, including dianne feinstein, now are subject to the same kind of strictures, perhaps -- >> but let me say -- >> there's a political component -- >> one is we should have less torture and less drone signature strikes. that goes to that problem. another thing you and i have discussed, i want to get your views on, when you look at prisoner mistreatment in our history, you do have nine soldiers who wore the uniform just like you who were cou court-martialed for abu ghraib. people who say, are we doing this the right way or should we prosecute someone, we've already done that. to me the question hanging over this report are did we do it

right? are those the only people who bush officials said went rogue and they were used the very stressed tactics part of the official policy. are those the only nine people that -- >> in my view, no. there's a military axiom that says, if you're the boss, you're responsible for everything that happens or fails to happen in your organization. you're not only required not to do anything -- you're required to give your opinion on things. when the order is given, have you to carry it out unless the order is immoral or illegal than you have an obligation to refuse to do it. and that's up and down the chain of command. other people in that chain of command who were not prosecuted, who were responsible for what took place, they were in the chain of command, and one could safely and i think persuasively argue that that list of people is an insufficient number of people -- >> there should be more. >> one would think. >> you mentioned that about following orders and what the limits are. the report documents cia officials overseas who when doing the waterboarding started

sending messages and cables back saying, not only is this not working, it's disgusting. some cia officials moved to tears. from their own account. i think it has to fay a lot to move a cia operative to tears. >> it does. like i said, you're responsible for carrying out orders and instructions unless they're immoral and illegal. i think at a higher level also if they're stupid, i mean f you're a high-ranking guy at the top of the chain of command. that still doesn't dismiss -- still doesn't reduce releasing the report in the first place. i think it's a political move. like i said, you run the tape forward five years. are the people who were involved in producing this report, are they then at risk? the people who are responsible for doing other things, which a future administration might find distasteful, are they now at risk? >> yeah, i -- >> that's an extremely dangerous thing to do. >> right. and we're about out of time. i understand the concern.

we'll hear from you again. it goes to the question we asked earlier in the show, how do you say we're never going to do this again if you don't have any transparency or accountability? but too much transparency,wise' wn, can be a risk for our folks out there in battle. colonel jacobs, appreciate it. that wraps up "the reid report." joy will be back tomorrow at 2 p.m. you can e-mail me as always if you want at ari @msnbc.com. reas, new players in new markets face a choice: do it fast and cheap. or do it right. for almost 90 years, we've stayed true to the belief that if you put quality in, you get quality out. it's why everything we build, we build to last. build on progress. build on pride. build on a company that's built for it. twhat do i do?.

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breaking news leads krk krnk. we continue digging through the report of cia's enhanced interrogation techniques, techniques president obama refers to as torture. i'm krystal ball and we have it is 500-page summary but the whole report is still klay classified. the report is significantly more

graphic than what we've seen before, detailing cia detention and interrogation techniques. >> detainees were subjected to the more aggressive techniques immediately, stripped naked, diapered, physically struck and put in various painful stress positions for long periods of time. they were deprived of sleep for days. in one case, up to 180 hours. >> the committee says these techniques were ineffective but the two subcontractored psychologists who designed the techniques, they were paid $80 million by the federal government. the other big sticking point in this report claims the cia lied to congress about what they were doing. >> in all of these cases, other cia officers acknowledged internally, they acknowledged internally, that information the cia had provided was wrong. >> now, keep in mind, there were 17 congressional briefings for