♪ the house is about to vote on a budget deal, a deal negotiated behind closed doors that slips in a provision that would let derivatives traders on wall street gamble with taxpayer money and get bailed out by the government when their risky bets threaten to blow up our financial system. these are the same banks that nearly broke the economy in 2008 and destroyed millions of jobs. >> it appears someone has an issue with the republican spending bill. good morning, everyone. it is thursday, december 11th. welcome to "morning joe." with us on set, we have mike barnicle and thomas roberts, senior editor of the news website courts, gideon litchfield. and in washington, washington anchor for "bbc world news america," katty kay. catty, good morning. good to have you. let's get to that, actually. elizabeth warren i think doing a

lot for her brand. the question is, can she turn this around? time's running out for lawmakers to avoid another government shutdown, and right now, a top democrat is urging her party to revolt against the must-pass legislation t legislation. the house is expected to vote on a $1.1 trillion spending plan before today's deadline, providing federal funding for agencies through september. the omnibus includes a 1% raise for federal workers and military service members, and the irs budget will be cut by more than $345 million. there is a significant increase in how much wealthy donors can give to national parties and some of the financial reforms under the dodd/frank act would be reversed. the provision in question would allow big banks to merge trades and financial derivatives with traditional bank accounts. of course, those traditional accounts are backed by the fdic. senator elizabeth warren says that will leave taxpayers on the hook for potential disaster,

leading her to call for house democrats to vote against the bill. >> the house of representatives is about to show us the worst of government for the rich and powerful. we put this rule in place because people of all political persuasions were disgusted at the idea of future bailouts. and now, no debate, no discussion, republicans in the house of representatives are threatening to shut down the government if they don't get a chance to repeal it. that raises the simple question, why? the reason, unfortunately, is simple. it's about money and it's about power. >> that's what she's doing. >> is she trying to shut down the government, mike barnicle? >> no she's protecting the american -- >> are you sure she's not? >> she's protecting the american consumer. >> what's happening here? i just walked in late. >> no, you didn't. >> actually, there's a couple interesting things. one, she's doing what she does

really well. >> what's that? >> yep. >> speaking to financial closure. >> thank you, mike. >> and the potential destruction of dodd/frank. and who, what she's doing is giving us a preview of what's going to happen every day in the next congress of the united states. >> well, we need that. >> which is what? >> which is the republican majority in the house and the republican majority in the senate are going to -- >> debate. >> they're going to favor things that elizabeth warren has been fighting against for her entire career. >> so, what you're saying is they're going to favor things that chuck schumer and hillary clinton -- >> bingo. >> bill clinton have supported their entire careers. >> that's why it's going to be fun. a contention convention with the democrats. >> and we need that, actually. >> yes! >> we need them to stand by what they say they stand by and not equivocate on the issues and think about the american people and how they get screwed by these banks at times, if they're not protected. >> i agree with you. >> thank you. >> 100%. >> isn't she right? >> yeah, i do. >> you were exactly right. >> well, does anyone disagree? thomas? katty? by the way, katy, what are the

chances that what elizabeth warren wants actually happens? because i think that might be an issue. i think this is very good for her brand. >> somewhere between 0% and 5%, but not a lot more. and i think mike's right, we'll hear a lot more over the next couple years from elizabeth warren. whether we're actually going to hear her get things done over the next couple years in congress is a totally different matter. there is no appetite in washington, either on the democratic or republican side for shutting down the government, which is what would happen if we had to go back, renegotiate all of this and try to get this repeal of the dodd/frank provisions out of this omnibus spending bill. it would take forever. it would be incredibly complicated, and i don't there's any chance it's going to happen. we're up against a tight deadline. this whole thing has to be done by midnight tonight. so, this bill is going to pass. this spending provision is going to pass. the government will be kept open because democrats and republicans want it to happen. democrats saw what happened to the republicans last time that

the government shut down. they do not want to be tied with that brush this time around. >> i don't think they -- >> why are you smiling? >> well, she's going to occupy the space that ted cruz occupied on the other side of the spectrum -- >> no, she's going to occupy wall street is what she's going to do. that's ridiculous. >> ooh. >> what. >> raul yesterday on the air, he didn't even know about the provision put in here about raising contribution limits from $32,000 to $320,000. >> exactly. >> chuck todd informed him on our air yesterday about that. so, the one thing that we don't have time for is debate. and i think that's what mika's pointing to and what elizabeth warren would like is debate to talk about this, and the deadline's tonight. >> that's what's so maddening. that's what they do. they get these big bills, they throw them down on the floor and they say vote up or down or else we're going to shut down the government, it's all your fault. but can i read the bill first? no, you can't read the bill first. >> but as mike says, the next couple years, it won't even be that, because sdwrust going to

be a done deal. republicans will be able to push through whatever they want. >> well, this is how, i mean, the system hopefully will work, where if they do that, the president then cerritos and then they go back and they try to do it again. and so, we may actually get some bills on the floor and we may actually have some debate, which will be a good thing. in other news, the latest on the fallout from the senate intelligence committee's scathing report on cia interrogation methods following the 9/11 attacks. outgoing democratic senator mark udall delivered a passionate speech on the senate floor for nearly 50 minutes, calling for cia director john brennan to resign. he also criticized the white house for not holding anyone accountable and revealed details of the classified cia report from 2009. >> cia personnel tortured detainees to confirm they didn't have intelligence, not because they thought they did. director brennan and the cia today are continuing to willfully provide inaccurate information and misrepresent the

efficacy of torture. the cia has lied to its overseers in the public, destroyed and tried to hold back evidence, spied on the senate, made false charges against our staff and lied about torture and the results of torture. and no one has been held to account. the president needs to purge his administration of high-level officials who are instrumental to the development and running of this program. he needs to force a cultural change at the cia. >> the white house is standing by brennan, calling the cia chief a "decorated professional and patriot." brennan will make his first public comments about the senate report in an appearance at agency headquarters today. former vice president dick cheney, who says he has not yet read the report, is speaking out to strongly reject its findings. he referenced the case of the alleged mastermind of the 9/11 attacks while defending the government's enhanced

interrogation techniques. >> i think it's a terrible piece of work, basically. it seems to me it's deeply flawed. they didn't bother to interview key people involved in the program. and i think that it's sort of a classic example which you see too often in washington where a group of politicians get together and sort of throw the professionals under the bus. he is in our possession. we know he's the architect. and what are we supposed to do, kiss him on both cheeks and say, please, please, tell us what you know? of course not. we did exactly what needed to be done in order to catch those who were guilty on 9/11 and prevent a further attack, and we were successful on both parts -- >> this report says it was not successful. >> report's full of crap, sorry. let me use the real word. >> he's right, it is. the report -- when it comes to the brutality, that is something that, obviously, everybody needs to read. when it comes to whether the program is effective or not, it

really is. for professionals, it is beyond debate. it just is, that it worked. they get actionable intelligence. and i just -- i don't know, mike. i was sitting here watching yesterday, and i just notice there's really shoddy investigation work going on around here. i mean, you take the grand juries in the eric garner case, and you know, you take the grand jury in ferguson, and neither one of those really were run like grand juries are usually run. and then you look at what "rolling stone" did in their uva rape case. like, they decided they didn't want to actually investigate it. they were just going to take one side's word, and they weren't going to actually talk to the accused. well, that's one thing if you're "rolling stone," but if you're the senate intelligence committee about to blast a report all over the world that's

going to hurt america's reputation, do you really refuse to interview the investigators? they refused to interview people that disagreed with their conclusions, including the cia directors that ran the program, including the interrogators, including the people that ran -- they only wanted to talk to people, as ignatius said yesterday, that helped with the prosecution's case. i just -- i think they would have had a lot more credibility if they had actually tried to get both sides. >> yeah, certainly they would have. i mean, falling back on the excuse, i think it's rather lame excuse that there's a federal court case going on, they couldn't talk to several people within the cia because they were under the threat of legal action. >> they could have talked to the directors of the cia, who all wrote an op ed saying, why didn't you talk to us? >> i understand that.

i -- >> how do you have a report like this where you don't talk to the directors of the cia, the people who ran the cia, who said, here, we have all of this evidence, miles high of actionable intelligence where they worked? >> i get that, but torture is torture and we tortured. that's not who we are as a country. i've got to tell you, before we get to the torture aspect, one of the stumbling blocks -- >> but that was a bad answer. >> why are we listening to dick cheney? >> no, why are you just saying torture is torture? it sounds great to say that, but that doesn't get to my question. if you have people that have mountains of evidence to come in and talk about, okay, you think it's torture? let's have a discussion on what we did and whether you think -- no, they couldn't do that, because all they were trying to do was prosecute. they were doing the opposite of what the grand jury in the eric garner case was doing and just tried to stop a prosecution. i just don't know why -- if people want the truth out, why are we searching for all these half-truths these days? whether it's "rolling stone,"

whether it's dianne feinstein, whether it's grand juries in cases where white cops kill black kids. >> because part of it is the old jack nicholson line from the movie, "you can't handle the truth." we can't handle the truth. >> i agree with that. >> and part of the truth is rooted in a terribly flawed john u. opinion written of the justice -- >> why do you think -- just why does anybody thinkm obama has not fired brennan? he's got the best of both worlds. he has a guy who supports the program while is still his cia director while going out and saying, oh, this is very troubling. is there somebody i can drop a drone on and kill the entire family? >> like mike said, the truth we can't handle is because the truth is messy and complicated and multisided. and inevitably, the only time truth comes out is when one side is going after the other side. i think that's what you're saying, joe. >> that's exactly what i'm saying. >> the report was really a

democratic move, which is not how it plays abroad. there, it looks like, wow, the americans are being transparent and they're investigating their own problems -- >> i think the only thing the cia exists for is to keep secrets. and for director brennan, who's a nice guy and comes on the air and wants to defend all of this. do you think you're going to get the truth? hell no! >> well, you won't -- >> do you think you're going to get the truth? no way! they're in the business of secrets. >> well, it's the same thing with the drone program you're talking about. >> the drone program. four, five years from now, who's to say that another senate intelligence committee won't be holding hearings in secret on the drone program? >> and mike barnicle, there is tape from "morning joe" as barack obama was becoming president of the united states where they were talking about holding bush up for war crimes. and i said, do you really want to go there? said because ten years from now, we're going to see pictures flooding in of little 5-year-old girls with arms blown off and grandmothers blown to a thousand

pieces, and we're going to see the "collateral damage" from this drone war that we have. and do you want barack obama a decade from now being held to the same standard? the answer, of course, is no. katy, i want to go to you about gideon talked about how it is a very ugly business sometimes that we're all in. and i just want to know if you remember in the weeks after 9/11, while ground zero was still smoldering, what everybody was saying on "nightline" and other programs, wringing their hands, going, well, you know, we're going to have to do things that we're uncomfortable doing, and we're going to have to make association with people that we're uncomfortable making associations with, and we've played it too straight, we've played it too clean, and we're going to have to get dirty. do you remember that? does everybody? because i heard it a thousand times. >> yeah, and we all -- that was the time, do you remember, joe, when we were all living with the

prospect that there could be a dirty bomb out there. >> exactly. >> i remember having evacuation conversations here in washington, d.c., with my kids and their schools about how we would get them out if there was some kind of explosion. it was a time of fear that is easy for us to forget now. >> absolutely. >> and we were all wanting to do everything that was possible to try to protect the country. what this senate report, though, asks is did we go too far in that process, and did we sacrifice some of what gives us our values, our moral superiority around the world in that process? >> right. >> i interviewed michael hayden last night, just as you guys did yesterday morning. and it was really interesting, when you ask him about what he disputes in the report, because he said to you, mika, that this was not news in this report, that there t was historically inaccurate. when you ask him why it was historically inaccurate, he comes down on this line that it was because of the actionable intelligence. he absolutely insists that there were things that were gained

from this process that were valuable. but when you push him on the tactics, he says, yes, these tactics happened. so, they're basically admitted -- and i asked him, well, then isn't this torture, then? he said, well, it was torturous. he doesn't want to use that term. but it's basically, he said, is tortious. >> that's the conversation and that's the information i think is valuable. i really do. look, i completely agree with you, i think the report is flawed, given the fact they don't talk to everybody. it's not bipartisan. >> right. >> it's also, i think, one thing that we came away with from our discussion yesterday is that you really can't judge these actions out of context. >> right. >> and it's almost impossible to put them into context so many years later. i was there at 9/11. i understand a little bit about the context of it, and it was chilling. it was absolutely chilling. i'm not sure i wouldn't make many of the same decisions. having said that, in terms of

where we're going as a country, i want to read these reports. i want to read the drone report five years from now. i want us to continue to evolve, look at the effectiveness of whatever methods we use and the cycle they potentially create in terms of threatening our security. >> i think, again, i think it's important that everybody reads the report, they look at the excesses that were made, and there were excesses that were made. >> without judgment, maybe. >> and there were terrible things that were done. i think right now, my biggest -- well, i've got two big problems. the first problem is people coming out saying that there wasn't actionable intelligence. khalid shaikh mohammed spilled his guts and continued to talk. there were people that were inside after, inside taking care of khalid shaikh mohammed. he actually asked for a whiteboard so he could draw out the entire operation, and he did. and at one point, he went on so long, these people said he was brain-dead. he's not brain-dead. he's one of the shreddest you

know what around. at one point, he actually had to wake up one of the agents, said hey, i'm talking here, and he continued to go on and was lecturing them. the guy spilled his guts. that's one problem. people said they didn't get actionable intelligence, they're either fools or i ddeologueideo. they did. the second problem is with these democratic lawmakers who don't want to put it into context, who aren't telling the truth to the american people about their role in this. if they would just come out and say, as i can say as somebody who was supportive of the program, hey, okay, look, there's some excesses in there. and we're going to get attacked again, and when we're attacked again, these are the things we're going to have to avoid, and we'd better be ready next time. if they would just say that. >> or we knew about them, but we have to talk about them. not pretend they didn't know. >> politifact took nancy pelosi's lines of what she said and they just said, it was just

out and out false. she knew. she was briefed. jay rockefeller knew. he was briefed. the democrats on the intel committee knew. as richard engel said, everybody knew. so, don't lie to us now. say, maybe you screwed up back then. >> put it all on the table. still ahead -- oh, dan, do we have the casey question in this tease ahead? just the question? good. all right. >> did she -- >> she's at it again. >> she was mean. >> she was so mean. >> who was she mean to this time? >> rick perry. what? you don't have the question. >> stop. i like rick a lot. back off. >> what's not to like? >> he's great. >> he is, yes. >> do you think it's okay to ask someone if they're smart enough to be president? >> no, it's not. >> is that mean? >> that is not. >> why not? >> i remember scarborough country had an infamous third one time, asking a question about -- >> maybe she's emulating it from the best. >> and in britain, we would ask, are you too stupid to be prime

minister? >> oh, god, i hope she didn't say are you too stupid. coming up, republican elijah cummings and representative john conyers join us for the latest from capitol hill. and joanna coles will be here along with dvs, hello. and how governor rick perry is trying to prove head and shoulders wrong that you do get a second chance to make first impressions. is this it? take a look. >> i think over the course of the last two years, people, you know, they realize that what they saw in 2011 is certainly not the person they're looking at the 2013, 2014, 2015. >> it wasn't in there. did she really ask him if he was smart enough to be president? >> i think she did. i really do. >> i hope he handled it well. >> glasses. >> that's why i wear glasses. >> that's ahead. also, why this car is a sign that the u.s. economy is firing on all cylinders. we will explain that and much more ahead on "morning joe." >> somebody's mid-life crisis to me. new cadillac.... ♪

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♪ time now to take a look at the morning papers. we'll start with "the guardian." the peruvian government will press charges against green peace activists for allegedly damaging the world-famous nauca linsin in a protest. they laid out cloth letters reading "time for change: the future is renewable" at the historic site. authorities say they left footprints that may remain at site for thousands of years. officials are calling it an attack on the cultural heritage of all peruvians. greenpeace has since apologized for the incident. >> that's pretty bad. you know what else is bad? >> huh? >> being called a minimally talented spoiled brat. >> well, that's not angelina jolie. >> this sony thing, man -- >> keeps getting worse?

>> keeps getting worse what people are saying, you know, when you're -- >> the chains have gone back and forth between the executives and between certain producers and talking about different celebrities and projects. it's amazing anything gets done. >> isn't that unbelievable? man. from "bloomberg," portsche saying its limited edition 918 spy under -- >> oh, my gosh. >> the company's most expensive car to date has sold out. >> who could fit into that? >> you've got to be a little, teeny man to fit into that. >> well, little, teeny americans have bought this. >> are there any? >> the automaker says u.s. consumers -- >> are you sure it was americans? >> the spyder, which is a hybrid plug-in, goes from 0 to 60 in 1.2 seconds. it sold the most so far in america. >> and that's a good sign? >> americans have bought this. >> i guess we have money to burn. why don't we just go back and burn it? >> i think it was just the ceos

who got bonuses. "the los angeles times," cbs says the final episode of "the late show with david letterman" will air on may 20th, ending letterman's 22 years at the network. stephen colbert will take over as the host of the new late show, which currently does not have a start date. letterman is the longest tenured late-night talk show host happen pe officially announced his retirement in april. >> boy, that will be a tough day. >> that's going to be big. >> i mean, that guy, i've grown up with that guy. >> mm-hmm. so many have. so many have. >> i mean, he's done so much to shape comedy in america. >> yes, absolutely. >> just, wow. that's going it be a rough day for me. >> and then the shift over from stephen colbert to ste o go? >> he's a really nice guy. >> i love him, but it just, i don't know. >> we shall see. from the "wall street journal," after months of testing and millions of dollars, the u.s. navy now says it has a battle-ready laser weapon. new video shows the navy testing the laser aboard "uss ponce" in

the persian gulf. officials say it is powerful enough to take out a drone or a small boat, but more importantly, it's cheap. each shot from the laser will cost the government just 59 cents. 59 cents! >> wow. >> a common surface-to-air weapon costs the navy around $400,000. >> i could use one of those when my neighbors -- >> all right, let's go to the "washington post." >> it's only 59 cents. >> better than a bb gun. >> joe. >> why? >> stop it. which neighbor are you talking about? >> he knows who i'm talking about. >> instagram is bigger than ever before. >> oh, it's huge. >> 300 million active monthly users. that figure puts it ahead of twitter, which claims 284 million users. the company's ceo says more than 70 million photos and videos are shared on the site each day. he announced instagram will begin offering verified accounts in the near future. >> did you notice at the top of your account lately that they gave a little warning about they're cleaning up to get rid of junk followers? >> yes, is that what that is?

>> that you might notice a decrease in followers because of junk followers, that they are were going to go through and velt -- >> that's why i'm down to three. >> yeah, just go down to my mom and mika. >> there you go! i follow you. >> i think they filtered out my mom. >> well -- >> as a junk bomber. >> well, sometimes -- >> maybe because of the nasty -- >> it's the nasty comments, mary joe. from "the fayettesville observer" the u.s. military has only now designated syria a dangerous place, meaning u.s. troops who fly through that air space will be eligible for additional pay. the pentagon recognized its oversight on wednesday, bringing up hundreds of thousands of dollars for american service members operating in that area. the so-called danger pay could amount to an extra $25 25 a month. troops in afghanistan, iraq and yemen, they generally receive a stipend. still ahead on "morning joe," this -- >> are you smart enough to be president of the united states? >> see? i told you. >> what's wrong with her? >> i told you. >> why is she so mean to my

friends? >> she does that. look how sweet she looks. >> then -- come on. >> that's how they used to do it on "entertainment tonight" and "insider." you just ask the question and then cut it off, so you get a tease. >> but who asks that question, thomas? somebody, a little mean. texas governor rick perry's answer -- >> i can't wait to hear what he says! i love him. >> i'm feeling bad for him. >> kasie hunt's coming up with that hate-filled question. i'm embarrassed to even know her. ♪ good morning everybody. we are about to make more deliveries to more places than anybody on earth. we have the speed. we have the technology. and we have the team. we made over 15 billion successful deliveries last year. 15 billion!

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♪ if you do run in 2016, do you think you would have any margin for error? >> oh, i think everybody has some margin for error. i've probably got less than other folks, but that's okay. i mean -- >> and can you convince your supporters that you have what it takes to run? >> oh, i think they're already seeing that. i think you're -- listen, when you look at the people that are pouring in here to sit down with us, to talk to us, the policy individuals that have said, listen, we want to come help you become even better prepared as we go forward is already the answer to that. >> all right, the so-called invisible primary for 2016 is

already gaining steam behind the scenes, as potential candidates fight for talent, money and support. and that's where things get very crowded and complicated in texas. msnbc political correspondent kasie hunt breaks down the battle lines. >> she's brutal. >> she's mean. >> this is my favorite thing to tell people, if you want to find out everything about yourself, i mean, like, everything, some of which is even true, run for president. ♪ >> reporter: everything's bigger in texas, but is texas big enough for all this presidential ambiti ambition? there's ted cruz, the tea party fire brand. rick perry, the state's longest serving governor. and jeb bush, the former florida governor whose family's sprawling political network has its heart in the lonestar state. >> can speak for 41 when i say this, he ought to run for president. >> reporter: officially, these texas titans are the best of friends. >> what's not to like about

george w. and laura? >> reporter: but behind the scenes, there's reportedly been tension. in 2007, you were campaigning for rudy giuliani in iowa, and you said that george bush was not a fiscal conservative. do you still believe that george bush wasn't a fiscal conservative? >> i go back and just look at our records, and my observation is that -- and i was making a distinction between myself and george w. >> reporter: perry has also been at odds with cruz, calling the government shutdown political theater. people close to the bush family privately say cruz's role in the shutdown will leave him out in the cold. as for cruz, he cast jeb bush as too moderate for the party. >> if republicans run another candidate in the mold of a bob dole or a john mccain or a mitt romney, we will end up with the same result, which is millions of people will stay home on election day. >> reporter: where it matters most, the money. if jeb bush does decide to run, he'd start with the loyalty of dozens of top donors who have backed the bush family for

years. for perry, that would add another major hurdle. perry's moving out of the governor's mansion in january, but in the meantime, he's hosting top donors and supporters here for dinners to give them a sense of what his political future might be. >> i think over the course of the last two years, people are, you know, they realize that what they saw in 2011 is certainly not the person they're looking at the 2013, 2014, 2015. >> reporter: and are you smart enough to be president of the united states? >> i think the standpoint of life's experiences. running for the president is not an iq test. it is a test of an individual's resolve. it's a test of an individual's philosophy. it's a test of an individual's life's experiences. and i think americans are really ready for a leader that will give them a great hope about the future. >> well, so, she asked the question and it kind of made me uncomfortable.

>> were you uncomfortable, kasie? >> i wasn't. rick perry wasn't. he did just fine. it's not an iq test. >> i thought rick perry did really well. >> i really enjoyed talking to him. i mean, he is really -- it's very clear to me that they are very serious about making a second presidential bid. >> oh, yeah. >> and what a difference between four years ago. >> he really has evolved a lot since 2012, and i think that, you know, he's gotten more and more comfortable in interview settings, in his sort of new role. i interviewed him -- i covered him in 2012 and i've interviewed him a couple times this year. and it's very clear they're doing a lot of intensive media training and he's sort of getting his feet under him in this new, definitely more cautious way that he's kind of approaching interacting with in particular the media as he tries to avoid making any mistakes. they know that he has very little margin for error. he's one major mistake away. >> and had an interview with you. >> i know, already did that. so, okay, let's say he starts to push -- get the people to sort

of forget the past, right? because there were some -- he had back issues and i don't remember all that. how does he measure up -- i mean, can you imagine him against hillary clinton? >> yeah, i actually can. >> you can? >> i think a lot of people in central pennsylvania would probably be more comfortable with rick perry than hillary clinton. i think a lot of voters in ohio would be more comfortable with rick perry than hillary clinton. i mean, i think it'd be tough. >> yeah, i think it would be tough. >> but i don't see people warming up to jeb or, you know, chris christie and -- i think he's a very likable guy. that's what george w. had going for him. personally, he's a very likable guy out on the campaign trail. >> one thing that's kind of striking, at least i personally found striking, when he was in here a few months ago, off of the piece that you just did on him. before you even get to ideology, before you get to, you know, is

he right or left on an issue or whatever, he seems far more looser and more likable -- >> he really is. >> -- than he did two or three years ago in terms of him being a candidate. do you find that? you covered him. >> i think it was a wake-up call for him. i think they will say, you know, he feels like he swaggered out on that stage. and he told me also in this interview that being governor of texas, it turns out even for 14 years was not enough to run for president. i think they made the mistake of thinking, okay, i walked out into this governor's mansion several times, that's going to be plenty to run for president. and i think that, you know, that humility is contributing to kind of how he is trying to evolve. >> well, there were the oops moments in the debate we have. what mika mentioned, i think in new hampshire, where he came to the stage and had taken some back pills and that was a little loopy of a conversation. >> yeah, it happens. >> it happens. >> joe, as you mentioned, when it comes to hillary clinton or any of these other candidates that might emerge, do they get a second chance to make a first

impression? and so, a lot of people have thoughts about rick perry or even hillary clinton, and they are trying to make this second impression on america. >> they do, but the margin of error for rick perry is awfully small. i mean, he's -- if he has another rough moment up in a debate, there's no doubt that -- >> what's his record? >> -- people are going to be piling on him, and it's not fair, but that's the way it was with dan quayle after dan quayle got off to a rough start. dan quayle, you know, get dan quayle when he was relaxed, he could sit and talk foreign policy forever, but he goes to another country, has a gun in his face and that's on the front page of the "the new york times." >> and i think people who know rick perry, he can survive a few missteps. if he stumbles over a word, okay, fine, but they know he's carrying around his own personal detonator and if he makes a mistake and steps on it in a big

way, that's it. >> kasie hunt, good john. up next, why cancer patients may be exposed to dangerous levels of radiation. dr. zeke emanuel has a disturbing, new medical study. we'll be right back. the holiday season is here, which means it's time for the volkswagen sign-then-drive event. for practically just your signature, you could drive home for the holidays in a german-engineered volkswagen. like the sporty, advanced new jetta... and the 2015 motor trend car of the year all-new golf. if you're wishing for a new volkswagen this season... just about all you need is a finely tuned... pen. get zero due at signing, zero down, zero deposit, and zero first month's payment on select new volkswagen models.

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comedian kevin hart's request for money to tweet about his next movie. i'm not saying he's a whore, but he's a whore. p producer scott rudin says "i'm not destroying my career over a spoiled brat who thought nothing of throwing cleopatra off the claitt for a couple of months so she could direct a movie." >> that was angelina jolie. >> angelina jolie. yeah, well -- from washington, former white house adviser for health policy and vice provost for global initiatives at the university of pennsylvania, dr. ezekiel emanuel. he's behind a new study -- >> doctor. >> zeke. >> how are you? >> he's behind a new study that reports that two-thirds of women who have lumpectomies for breast cancer are actually getting radiation therapy that lasts nearly twice as long as they need. okay, zeke, tell us more. and what are the ramifications?

>> so, conventional therapy had been five to seven weeks of radiation, and then over the years, we've gotten four studies that have shown that you can have three weeks of treatment, much more condensed at higher doses per time. it's the same in terms of the cure of cancer. it's better for women because they come in fewer times, much fewer times. and it's much cheaper for society. and yet, less than a third or less of women are actually getting that treatment. so, it seems like we're not actually doing what's best for the women. it's true that the longer treatment is not worse for women, but it's much less convenient and much more expensive for society. >> so, why, zeke, why are they not getting that treatment? >> right. >> why if we have this knowledge, why are they not getting that treatment? >> well, first, medicine is slow to change, and for many years, a lot of radiation oncologists were worried that they weren't the same, you'd have to follow patients for a long time to be

sure that they were really the same. they have turned out to be the same. but the fact is that they are also paid substantially more to give the longer treatment. it is a failure, i think, of our payment system, that they treat these two different treatments that are therapeutically the same, but one is much better for women and they actually pay the one which is better for women less. because we keep paying for doing things instead of paying for actually what's best in terms of health outcomes. and that's really what's got to change here. and i know a lot of radiation oncologists really want this to change. >> zeke, this is thomas. is there an emerging therapy that's coming to change radiation, what it means? because for a lot of people and families that have lived through this, it's barbaric and it's toxic and it's hurtful in a lot of ways to the body. is there an emerging therapy that medicine is following? >> well, the fact is that radiation has gotten much, much better over the last 20 years,

much more precise, less toxicity, less scatter to the normal tissue around it, but it's still a main stay for treatment of many, many cancers and for also for if it spreads to the bone, it's still the main treatment we have. i don't see it going away. many people have been developing proton bean. that's a therapy where the machine costs hundreds of millions of dollars, has to be in this big, football-sized enclosure. but not a lot of positive results that that's much better, except in pediatric brain tumors. so, i still think that, you know, we are going to have radiation therapy for as long as you and i are around. >> dr. zeke emanuel, thank you very much. come back soon. >> yeah, see you. all right, coming up, senator dick durbin joins us. plus, a former detroit emergency

manager, kevyn orr with some very big news for the motor city. also ahead, an 85-year-old woman jumps out of a plane to honor the memory of her veteran brother, iraq war vet pat "trick" murphy joins us next with that story. we' he's got a very cool show here. >> he really does. ♪ [ male announcer ] this man has an accomplished research and analytical group at his disposal. ♪ but even more impressive is how he puts it to work for his clients. ♪ morning. morning. thanks for meeting so early. oh, it's not a big deal at all. come on in. [ male announcer ] it's how edward jones makes sense of investing. ♪

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♪ joining us now, former congressman and host patrick murphy. >> actually, you can see the sky. can we go back to that washington shot? >> wait, you can see the sky? >> we're living in an existence -- >> where have you been? >> -- that lives an awful lot like the matrix. no sun. but look at d.c. you actually -- so, that's what the sun looks like in december. >> patrick, you're working with wreaths across america, wreathes america day, coming up this weekend. explain it, please. >> all right, this is one man from maine who started this national movement. >> i love it already. >> yep, so, the small town of maine, he basically makes wreathes and what started out as a small act of patriotism has started this national movement. they have tens of thousands of volunteers that basically put

wreathes in over 600,000 veterans' grave sites in all 50 states. >> whoa. >> and in arlington, this saturday where we'll be, we'll be doing a show from, saturday and sunday we're going to be doing over 200,000 of the grave sites at arlington national cemetery. >> wow. >> that is fantastic. let's talk about this remarkable story about an 85-year-old woman who 70 years to the day after her brother died in war, wanted to commemorate him. >> yeah, edith knowles, her brother, buddy, fights in the battle of the bulge. she's 17 years of age. she's, like, the youngest sibling. >> oh, look at her. >> he's killed in the battle of the bulge. and you know, that's ten days in world war ii, its defining moment, really turned the war. >> we broke through, right. >> gave his life. she basically says, in his honor, she jumped out of an airplane. we were down in north carolina last week. she jumps out of an airplane last week and i'm a former

paratrooper with the 82nd airborne division. she jumps out, overcomes her fears. we were in maine with governor chris christie at the statue of liberty. we were laying the freedom wreath. but edith is an inspiration. >> oh, my gosh, she is amazing! so, that was her practicing. >> that was her practicing. i referred to her as an 85-year-old woman who is doing this. she corrected me on stage in front of hundreds of people, saying i'm 85 years young, mr. murphy -- >> there you go. >> and i looked at governor christie, and he goes, she's a jersey girl. >> that is a total jersey girl. all right, so, let's talk quickly about isis. a lot of debate about going in and stopping isis. you have to have mixed emotions. >> i do. >> obviously, you're in great danger. at the same time, that's more men and women going overseas. >> yeah. joe, at the end of day, if we're going to do this, we have to do it. we can't half step anything. we forget the lessons learned

from vietnam. you have a clear mission. use overwhelming force to accomplish that mission and you have a clear exit strategy. you can't have overwhelming force if you say we're not going to have boots on the ground. we're either doing it or we're not doing it. and congress, by the way, has to be part of this. only congress can declare war. i taught con law at west point. congress wants to point the responsibility on this, they have to be part of this. >> boy, they vl. >> they have. >> it's shameful. >> right. and the president has to make sure they do it. all right, taking the hill airs live from arlington national cemetery this sunday on msnbc. >> gold star families going to be there. it's going to be a special show. >> wow. >> thanks, joe. appreciate it. >> what a great thing you're doing. patrick murphy, thank you so much. we'll be watching that. still ahead, why there's new cause of concern with just hours to go before a possible government shutdown. >> elizabeth warren and those democrats should not shut down the government. >> oh, stop it. >> they should not. >> republicans should not roll back dodd/frank and take

advantage of the american consumer. >> poison pill that spending bill. >> you know what, they can get what they want on immigration -- >> it just makes me sad that they shut down the government. >> -- but lay off the american consumer. and the milestone detroit is celebrating this morning. we'll be back with much more "morning joe." ♪ it's not about how many miles you can get out of the c-max hybrid. it's about how much life you can fit into it. ♪ the ford c-max hybrid. with an epa-estimated range of 540 miles on a tank of gas. and all the room you need to enjoy the trip. go stretch out. go further.

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our enemies act without conscience. we must not. >> oh, my god, uncle johnny? is that you? i've missed you so much! did the straight talk express just pull into truth town? >> in the end, torture's failure to serve its intended purpose isn't the main reason to oppose its use. it's about us. it's about who we were, who we are and who we aspire to be. it's about how we represent ourselves to the world. [ laughter ] >> i didn't think i'd ever see you again. like laser discs or myspace, but you're back. don't ever leave me again. >> oh, my gosh. that was spooky and really funny.

>> welcome back to "morning joe." mike barnicle and katty kay are still with us. joining the conversation, former mccain senior campaign strategist and msnbc political analyst steve schmidt. >> steve! >> john mccain, he's not really back on this issue, is he? he's always said this. >> he's always said this and mccain was instrumental in the change of policy going back to 2005-2006. >> yeah. >> when the army field manual was updated and we had a conversation in this country what was appropriate with regard to interrogation of these combatants in an unprecedented, new type of war. >> what do you think of the report that came out yesterday? >> i think it's appalling. >> why's that? >> this is not a 9/11 commission-style report. this is a partisan report by the majority released on a political calendar with no firsthand accounts from cia officers in the field. it will endanger the lives of americans abroad. it will make the job of the cia more difficult. and this is why it was condemned

this morning by senator bob kerrey, medal of honor recipient, democrat, member of the intelligence committee in the senate and someone who served on the 9/11 commission. >> but john mccain doesn't seem to be very critical of what the report said. >> he was not critical of what the report said, and i think that we're confusing two issues here. what was said in the report versus the actions that were under taken. deeply embedded in the tradition of the united states military, going back to general washington's general order, number one, is that british forces were to be given quarter. we're not to be executed when british forces were committing all manner of atrocities during the revolution. so, senator mccain has great moral authority on this issue, but when we look at the testimony of former cia directors, the notion that these interrogations did not lead to actionable intelligence is not true. it is not the case.

it is not the case on the testimony of many of the leaders of the cia over a period of time. now, should the united states, which is a signatory to any torture conventions waterboard? waterboard has always met the conventional definition, understanding and under american treaty obligations as being for the torture. we should not torture. we should not waterboard. every time a democratic society goes to war, as we move past that period of conflict, we're still in what i think will be a long twilight struggle, but we have always had to have a conversation in a democracy about the balance between our civil liberties and our securities. the internment of the japanese, the suspension of habeas corpus. proportionally, the excesses that have occurred is by historical standards in this conflict are less than have occurred in other conflicts. so, i think it's healthy to have the conversation, but we should not confuse this as a report of

the senate intelligence committee. it's a report by the majority staff. >> right. >> and it is a singular failure of the leadership of dianne feinstein as chairman of that committee to be able to put together a consensus document that accomplishes what you just suggested we should have. >> well, i mean, how are you going to have a consensus document if you don't eve talk to the cia directors, if you don't want to talk to the people that ran the program, if you don't want to talk to people who were involved in the program. i've been saying, it's like writing a story about the uva rape case and not wanting to talk to the accused. and in this karks the accused aren't frat boys. the accused are the very people that nancy pelosi and jay rockefeller and the democrats on the intel committee said, go get them, guys in 2002. and so suddenly, they are the, you know, they're the bad guys when 2002, 2003, 2004, nobody said anything. i said it yesterday, dianne feinstein, who is so shocked now, first time she got a

briefing on this. she just completely blew past the briefing and then asked abo abo about the poisoning. >> these accusations are made at a time when there is a smoking pile of rubble on top of 3,000 dead americans in lower manhattan. to go back now 14 years later with none of that context, second guessing these decisions, ascribing bad motives to brave men and women who have been on the front lines, working in the shadows, keeping this country safe. when we look at the effectiveness of these programs -- and again, i believe absolutely it's important to step back, to review, to look at actions taken in the name of the american people. are they consistent with our values, our highest ideals? as we always have. but to go after the men waend of this agency that have kept this country safe, i think it's appalling. >> so, just to be clear, you think it's torture, you know, the activities described in the report -- we're calling it a

report -- you do think it's torture? >> i think some of the activities described in the report meet the definition of torture. water boarding to me is not an ambiguous -- is not ambiguous about it. it is absolutely meets the definition of torture according to the conventions that this country is a signatory to, absolutely. >> i think also, i mean, you call it appalling, the burning pile of rubble. i understand the context that we can't even fathom at this point. you just can't. i mean, even many who covered it. but i don't think the question as to whether it's consistent with our values is the only question. i think in terms of effectiveness, it's not just did you extract information and how much compared to how you got information in other ways, because i think those are fair questions, but also, does it contribute to an endless cycle of hatred? and that, ultimately, in the long run doesn't -- >> no, no --

>> -- isn't in the national interest. >> it doesn't. and us water boarding three terrorists in 2002 and three doesn't. i'll tell you what does contribute to an endless cycle of hatred and what does create new terrorists every day, when drone bombs are dropped on entire families and you're willing to kill 15, 16 innocent people to kill the one bad guy because you don't want to do what we did with khalid shaikh mohammed, which is do a lot of really good, hard intel work, find out what neighborhood he's in in karachi, go in, grab him, pull him out, save everybody that he's living with, take him to a black site, interrogate him, get information that actually saves thousands of american lives down the road. so, that's actually -- just, let's just go ahead and kill them all, and if we kill 5-year-old girls and 85-year-old grandmas, so be it. we feel better about ourselves because that seems cleaner. that's what liberals are saying

today. >> no -- >> yeah, that's what they're saying. that's what joe biden's been saying. that's what barack obama's been saying. the drone program went into overdrive on january 21st, 2009. and when you talk about five years from now, ten years from now, the information comes out about this drone program, mike barnicle, and people actually report on this drone program, it's going to look a hell of a lot worse, a hell of a lot deadlier, a hell of a lot more random and a hell of a lot more inhumane than water boarding three prisoners in 2002 and 2003. >> well, that point gets to something that steve references, then -- >> mark my words. >> our lack of ability in this country. we talk about having a national discussion on race. which we go back and forth -- >> nobody wants to have one of those, by the way. >> but we have never really had a national discussion on the concept of our national security. if you think about it, we have been in one state of war, capital "w" or small "w," for 75

years, since december 7th, 1941. world war ii becomes the cold war, cold war becomes korea, korea becomes vietnam, that becomes an endless spat of cold war, the iranian hostage crisis and now an endless twilight war. so, for 75 years, the security state has been assembled around us -- >> you know what the americans are saying? keep my kids safe. >> right. >> like, i say on the air i'm worried about drones, katty kay? the american people aren't worried about drone strikes. they might be worried about what the nsa is doing. the american people for the most part, the overwhelming majority aren't. i'm in the minority on a lot of these cases. you start talking about water boarding, you know what? a couple of beheadings later, the american people go, yeah, all right, well, let's not do that again, but what can you do? there is no evidence that throughout american history that the american people writ large have been wringing their hands. they are jacksonians. they don't want to go to war, but when you go to war, you do whatever it takes to win. >> yeah, and we saw after 9/11

there was a clear decision in this country that they were prepared to trade issues like privacy, issues like torture, issues like drone strikes in order to protect their own security. in fact, what's interesting is that since 2007, the number of americans who are opposed to torture has been declining. the number of americans who say that actually torture is valuable and reasonable in certain causes has been increasing. and add that as we get further away from the attacks of 9/11. i still think there does need to be a national discussion, and this report is the most comprehensive report we've had so far that lays out the case that american interrogators use torture. now, you can mess around with the legalese of the language, but as steve said, there is really no case to be made that waterboarding, shackling somebody and hanging them from a ceiling is not torture by most people's definition. and you have to have an argument about that. you have to have a discussion. is that what we want to do as a

country? is that not what we want to do as a country? and as john mccain said, it's not really about whether the means justify the ends, it's whether we want to use those means at all, period. >> i think the one thing, gideon, out of this report that you do see that is helpful is how we weren't ready for this. david ignatius said it yesterday, we were not ready. and in 2002 and early 2003, there were a lot of mistakes that were made. terrible mistakes that were made. i would stack those mistakes up with the mistakes that were made in world war ii and say they were an asterisk. the good war. the firebombing that killed hundreds of thousands of women and children in germany after the war was already over. the internment of japanese americans. i mean, i could go down the list. the good war. this is a very, very small asterisk. >> absolutely. >> and you know what, if we're wringing our hands and sweating and crying about this and having people coming on this show,

saying we're no better than al qaeda! well, then you just aren't grown up enough to run this place. we have made mistakes and we have to fix those mistakes and it was abhorrent and it is sickening, but we need to fix it and move on. >> well, the question i have, which goes back to what mike said, is what does it look like to have a national discussion about national security? i mean, if you compare it with the discussion about race, you know, any national discussion here, as anywhere else, is a national shouting match. but with race, there are citizens in the country that have a stake in the outcome and that leads to a process where people can lobby, put pressure, exercise their will, their rights, their votes, whatever. so, a shouting match about race can actually turn into policy. but a shouting match about did we torture too many people, are we too harsharsh. >> it's not a shouting match. it's a three-word conversation that the american people say in poll after poll after poll after poll, some of them that i look at the polls and go, oh, my god, we're a little too tough, keep

us safe. >> because the people -- >> everything goes back to keep us safe. why didn't george w. bush after stumbling for four years beat john kerry in 2004? keep us safe. keep us safe. >> that's my point. the people who are being harmed -- >> there will be no conversation. >> the people being harmed by these policies don't have a say because they're outside of the country. so, that's why this kind of national discussion is difficult. >> to your point, though, joe, some time in the next five years, it's almost inevitable it's going to happen, is americans are going to be sitting down watching their tv news or watching their phones or wherever they're watching and they're going to be told about the day that i picked up my cousin outside the capital of yemen to drive him to the bakery and he had a package under his arm and he had been associated with a known terrorist, and someone at the air force base are looking at him over the screen and they say signature strike, whack him. and i get killed and leave a family of seven, he gets

killed -- >> well, that's happens. >> we're going to find out about these things. >> well, exactly. and by the way -- >> the discussion that should then happen is, is that affecting american national security? as you said, the anger and the hatred that's generated. but then how do you -- >> that's what i said at the beginning of this conversation, that's what i've been saying for a very long time. that impacts -- you have politicians in washington, d.c., and i will say, mainly in the democratic party, that believe you can have a clean terrorist war and you can sit in washington, d.c., with a kill list where the president says, we'll kill him and kill him and kill him, which they then excitedly leak to "the new york times" to show that this is a president who's powerful and in touch, and the president has his kill list. and then they just press a button from the united states and then they go out to arby's and have a bite to eat and then they come back -- >> that's it. >> that raises as many questions about torture, but you can't deflect from the torture conversation. >> that actually raises more -- no, this is how it impacts it.

the drone strikes that have been going into overdrive since january 20th, 2009, actually generate a hell of a lot more terrorists over the next generation and a hell of a lot more problems for the united states of america than do three incidents of water boarding in 2002 and 2003. and yet, the same people that are creating a new generation of terrorists are wringing their hands, but not firing john brennan, because in the end, they understand why this was necessary. >> the drone strikes are tailored for the culture of this country today with fewer than 1% serving in the american military. it's an nant septic war. >> we're doing it from an iphone. >> your kid can go to the university instead of war. don't worry about your son because we've got a button. >> thank you for being on today. still ahead, congressman elijah cummings, senator dick durbin, cosmo's joanna coles and fashion designer dvf, diane von

furstenburg all join us. also ahead -- >> what do you think she'll think of my pullover? >> i think she'll have choice words for both of us. >> i like the t-shirt. >> maybe i'll just wear the t-shirt, be like anderson cooper on assignment, except i'll be here. >> also ahead -- >> i look good in a white t-shirt. >> at midnight this morning, detroit officially emerged out of bankruptcy. >> that's great. >> what the former emergency manager kevyn orr says still concerns him about the state's future. he joins us next. ♪

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♪ we are thankful that at this point, the city will emerge later today, by the time i go to bed, from bankruptcy. we will exit. and we look forward truly to a better time for the city going forward. >> we still have enormous challenges delivering the services in the city every day,

but at least now we are no longer a city that's in bankruptcy. >> wow. the city of detroit has officially emerged from bankruptcy. but not all the problems are solved. it marks the end of the largest municipal chapter nine case in the nation's history. and elected officials have now gained control over their own budget for the first time since 2013. and here with us now from washington, kevyn orr, who retired as detroit's emergency manager last night, when the clock struck midnight. >> congratulations. >> i think. >> thank you, joe. thank you, mika. i appreciate it. and yes, you're right, i'm now retired. >> so, what do you make of the state of detroit since you have left this position and put it back in the hands of the city? >> well, you know, mika, we've managed to clean up the balance sheet a little bit and provide it with some resources, but operationally, things have improved, but there's still a lot of work left to do. i mean, we still have to roll out the plan and we still have to push out services to citizens. so, it's hopeful, but let's not lose sight of the fact that there's still some task ahead of

us. >> mr. orr, so, what does it mean today if i live in downtown detroit and i call 911 this morning as compared to a week ago, now that you've cleared bankruptcy? does it mean it's more efficiency? do they come more quickly? does the fire department report more quickly? what happens? >> yeah, actually, those figures in terms of reporting are approaching national averages of like 18 minutes. it means that services, two-thirds of the civil side of the city's budget are really public safety budgets. so, yes, they do come quicker. we have more ambulances on the road. we have police response times down. we have murder clearance rates up. so, you see those things, particularly in the central business district downtown, but you still have to push out reinvigoration and redevelopment in the neighborhoods. >> and what about pension benefits for retirees? were they cut back? are their pension restored or frozen or what happened there? >> yeah, we were fortunate enough to get $816 million between a state contribution and foundations to help us shore up the pensions.

so, in the police and fireside of the pension house, their pensions were not cut. their cola was cut by about 40%. and on the civil side, their pensions were cut by about 4.5%, but that was significantly better than the almost 26% we would have had to cut back if bedidn't gbwe didn't get that money. so, there's some reductions, but the pensioners, thankfully, and i appreciate their efforts, voted for our restructuring plan by over 82%. so, that was very helpful. >> thomas? >> so, we have a crime rate, it has improved. >> yes. well, it's gone down. >> has gone down. >> right. >> but we understand that the unemployment rate comparatively in the city is double that of the state average. so, explain what this means to businesses that are going to be attractive. what incentives are there for young businesses that want to come in to detroit now? what's being provided to them to attract business back? >> sure. well, you know, the city has about five major projects. at least two of them are under way. we broke ground on the m-1 light

rail project going up the spine of the city. over on the midtown, we have a new stadium by the ilitch family and five new neighborhoods that will be built. in the coming years, canada's going to spend over $3 billion to build a new train crossing on the united states side, a new landing footprint for the city. and some of our creditors, the folks from whom we borrowed $1.8 billion, both have waterfront agreements in the city. so, there's a lot of development downtown. dan gilbert of quicken fame owns 62 buildings downtown. he's making an investment from a value proposition. so, downtown, things are looking quite well and are going up. but the reality is, that's nine square miles of a city that's 139 square miles, and we have to make sure that the neighborhoods experience some of that growth. >> is there anything in there that will help the tigers make it to the world series? >> yeah, they have great pitching and seemed to be doing okay last year, so we can always

hope. >> well, kevyn orr, get some sleep, maybe. >> go golfing or bowling or whatever you do. >> i think my wife has some chores for me. and mika, my secretary, yunis, says hello. she watches your show to figure the color she wants to wear in the morning, so thank you very much. >> oh, that's so nice! >> what about me? does she like what i wear? >> i like what you wear. >> is it yunis? thank you, eunice. that's so nice! kevyn orr, thank you so much. >> thank you so much, guys. coming up, a new piece in "glamour" magazine asks the question, is america ready for a female president? how that essay compares with the very same question the magazine asked nearly 40 years ago. >> and i'm going to ask steve schmidt -- >> that's cool. >> -- based on a new poll that's out, is jeb bush the only republican that can beat hillary clinton? >> okay. >> stay with us. >> stand by. we'll be right back. ♪

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♪ don't freak out if he doesn't. >> a new poll from florida shows voters in that state prefer its former governor over a current senator in the 2016 republican primary. the st. leo poll has jeb bush

pulling in 34% support. mitt romney and senator marco rubio a distant second and third. on the democrat side, it's more of the same. it's hillary clinton as the clear favorite to win her party's nomination. >> that's not close. >> oh, my god! but things get a little more interesting when we take a look at the head-to-head matchups. jeb bush is the only republican to pull ahead of clinton in the poll, even if it's within the poll's margin of error. clinton would easily beat the rest of the gop field. here with us now is senior national correspondent for bloomberg businessweek, josh green, who's been writing about jeb bush's business ventures and what they may foretell about a potential presidential run. also with us, editor in chief of "glamour," cindy levy. >> drove my chevy to the -- >> levy! >> but the levy? >> was dry. thank you, joe. >> i can't wait to talk to you about deep cleve, but we have other things to get to first. >> we'll get to jeb before we get to deep cleavage. first of all what does that poll show you? >> i don't think it shows anything other than you're

seeing the people who have the most name i.d. that have the highest levels up on the poll. in florida -- >> what about marco being down at 10%? is it suggesting he needs to stick around a little longer? >> i think it does. i think the chances that the republican party, after eight years of barack obama, is going to nominate a 40-some-year-old first-term senator with no executive experience is zero. >> just not going to happen. >> no way. >> why are we even talking about it then? okay. >> no way ever. so, you have upset, you just told me, running under the breath, said breathlessly, you've got this piece out about jeb bush, and you call him mini mitt. >> what? is that a good thing? >> this is a profile -- well -- >> we like mitt romney. >> he could be the one. >> i don't think it is. >> tell us the story, though. >> so, this is a look at jeb bush's career in private equity, which he's been doing over the last two years. the big scoop in this piece is that jeb bush just notified the

securities and exchange commission that he is chairman and manager of an offshore private equity fund for mainly private investors. this is the third fund bush has opened in the last 20 months. so, the question i put to wall street lawyers and fund-raisers and managers is, is this the behavior of somebody imminently preparing to run for president? and the answer across the board was no. >> why is that? >> he would be doing -- well, number one, these funds have a lifespan of about ten years. so, you don't raise $100 million and then turn around and bail on your investors. it's not impossible, but it's not the way you usually do these things. >> you've got the offshore issue, too. is that obviously political concern? >> i think what he's done may be standard practice on wall street but looked at in a political context, through the lens of a presidential election in the wake of what happened to mitt romney with private equity, it really raises some questions about do you want to be out there talking about offshore funds and tax savings -- >> steve that does seem to be a strange thing to do over the past two years if -- not if you want to make a lot of money, but

if you want to run for president of the united states. >> any time that somebody gets into a race rashly, last minute, not having thought about it for years, it usually winds up in a very, very bad place. so, there is no person in america, including hillary clinton, who has more of an idea going back to his father's '80, '84, '88, '92 campaigns, president george w. bush's campaigns in 2002, 2004, what it is like to run for president, what it is like to be president in the united states. and clearly, over that time, i mean, these are just not the actions of someone who's getting ready to make this run. and he is not someone who is blessed by the naivete of some of these other candidates who, for example, might think running for president is like running for governor of a slightly bigger new jersey. >> right. >> but -- >> oh, wow. okay! so, from republican to the democrats now, cindy, you've got a couple of things going on.

you're doing something with michelle obama tomorrow. we'll talk about that in just a second. but first, i love what you've done in "glamour." is america ready for a female president? an essay today comparing it to one, what, 40 years ago? >> 40 years ago, jeff greenfeld, the political commentator, had written a story for "glamour" called is america ready for a female president? and he concluded no, absolutely not. at that point, 50% of americans were saying they would be less likely to vote for a female than an equally qualified male. now it's completely the opposite. 71% of americans say that gender makes no difference whatsoever, and 19% say they'd be more likely to vote for a woman. and what we found that's interesting is that most women now believe that it would be a good thing for america to have a female president. they believe it's about time. they'd like to show it to their daughters. on the other hand, it's not what they are going to make their own voting decision on the basis of when they go into that ballot box, they are voting on their own personal self interests. >> jeff greenfeld said not only

is it likely, it's imminent. >> yeah, he believes so. he believed it's imminent regardless of whether hillary clinton wins in 2016. he believes there is an enormous pipeline of qualified women, both democrats and republicans, and it is a question of sooner rather than later. >> i just don't know that it's changed so much since 2008. i was shocked by how badly hillary clinton was treated. >> oh, no, they're going to be ready. >> well, look, certainly someone from the mccain campaign perspective, you know, i don't think that journalism's finest hour occurred during the coverage of the '08 primary and general election. >> oh, god. it was horrific. >> look, the notion of the democrats with hillary clinton, that hillary clinton is going to walk to the nomination, that they're going to have an acclimation process, not a nomination process, i suspect democrats will roo the day that happened. looking backwards to the inauguration of the next president, who's going to be a republican, because hillary clinton wasn't pushed and tested in this primary process. >> all right, cindy, before we

go, the girls project. you, michelle obama, tomorrow. tell us about it. >> yes. we're doing a panel at the brookings institute tomorrow. and what's interesting is that yesterday we all saw malala yousafzai get the nobel peace prize, the youngest person ever to do so for her work on girls education. "glamour" has launched the girl project, which allows americans to contribute to the education of girls worldwide, something we can all get behind. >> it really is unbelievable. >> wow! >> what a moving, moving sight. and let me ask you, josh, what was the bush campaign's reaction to your questions on the old mini mitt thing? >> how'd that go? >> besides unhappiness? no, they make a valid point. if he runs, this is the argument he's going to have to win. he said mitt romney's entire life and career were private equity. jeb bush, that's a small part of what he's done. he's got an eight-year record as governor. he's proven he's popular, effective. we think that if he runs, that's going to be the focus of the race. but you know, i would respond that running for president is

like submitting to a two-year-long prok torell exam. they're going to look at his record, examine his private equity, it's all fair game. >> steve wants to get examined, too. >> i think a lot of people in this country will be much less bothered about how jeb bush made his living than hillary clinton shaking down public universities for $200,000 a speech. >> ooh, wow! >> there is not a bank or a private equity fund she hasn't given a paid speech to as far as i can tell. >> by the way, shaking down public universities for $200,000 that she once represented. that's pretty stunning. >> the one thing that i like about it is that she's commanding bigger numbers than men, so she is a trailblazer. >> joe to play devil's advocate -- >> indeed, she is. >> she is. >> and to what you were saying before, will that sexism on the trail in 2008 hurt her this time? i'm not sure it hurt her then. there's always going to be some dufus yelling some sexist thing,

but if you're running for president -- >> mark penn, her chief strategist said you have to run as maggie thatcher. you have to be this strong, iron lady because americans won't elect someone who's weak, if she's a woman. >> okay. >> well, she's certainly as secretary of state made a point about talking about her experience as a woman. i suspect the same. >> i can tell you, my first campaign was against a woman and there are some built-in advantages, but there are a lot of disadvantages. >> totally. absolutely, potholes yeverywher. >> i was 29 and 30 when i ran. young people did not like me. i got elected by older people because they felt like i'd have energy. women, as you all know, sometimes are not nice to women. >> yeah. yeah. >> and we'll see. >> cindi leive -- >> it's always tough for women running. >> josh green, thank you very much. great to have you both on. >> thank you. up next, public outcry continues following the deaths of michael brown and eric garner. and now congress wants to look into the tactics police are using. the ranking members of three congressional committees join us next on "morning joe."

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♪ i think we all have a lot -- you know, serious questions that need to be addressed and we need to understand what happened, why this decision was made. i believe i would call for the house to have those hearings so that we can better understand, but we need to be taking action, appropriate action, making sure our local law enforcement have the training, have, you know, that they're using appropriate force, which i think we all recognize as these are tragedies and it has raised a lot of questions.

>> so, that was house republican conference chairwoman cathy mcmorris rodgers last week calling for hearings after the grand jury decision not to indict the officer in the choke hold death of eric garner. joining us, three other congress members from key committees doing the same thing. ranking member of the judiciary committee john conyers, ranking member of the homeland security committee, bennie thompson, and ranking member of the oversight committee, elijah cummings. >> guys, great to have you with us. >> good to be with you all. >> john and bennie, i'm not sure why you hang out with elijah, but you'll have to justify that with your constituents. no, elijah, let me start with you. we've got two big issues here. we've got police tactics and we've got race. what do you think is the most important part of that focus as hearings move forward on capitol hill? >> well, i think both are very important, joe. now you have a segment of our society that believes that we're being mistreated and that there

is not equal justice under the law. and failing to -- we just can't understand why you can have a situation like the staten island matter with mr. eric garner and a grand jury failed to indict. and i think the world -- >> so, elijah, what can be done? i think while there was some debate over what happened exactly on the street in ferguson, there's no debate about what happened in staten island. you've got a lot of people angry on both sides of the aisle, republicans finally speaking out on this. what positive steps can we put in place to stop situations like this from happening again? >> well, the question is why we've called for the hearings, but training is clearly something we want to look at. we want to look at how a grand jury system fails and how federal resources, joe, are being used by these police departments and whether there needs to be changes. and we're clear that there needs to be changes, but again, we need to do the research to try

to figure out all the answers. but something has to be done immediately. >> you know, katty kay, speaking of resources from the federal government, mike barnicle brought it up a couple days ago, it's unbelievable that the officers in ferguson had tanks and basically war machinery, but the officer didn't have mace on his belt or a stun gun. >> right. toys left over from the wars in iraq and afghanistan. i was going to ask the congressman, there's going to be a demonstration by african american staffers on the steps of capitol hill protesting against these cases in ferguson and staten island this afternoon. a similar demonstration was held back in 2012 by black staffers, also protesting trayvon martin's death. is there anything that's happened in the course of the last two years that makes you optimistic that this time around you will see things change within police departments? >> bennie, let's go to you with that one. >> well, you know, i think this is just a further example of everyone getting concerned about what's going on, joe.

as you know, young people felt very touched by the actions in ferguson and staten island. so, i think what you see the black staffers here on capitol hill doing is expressing their concern that something needs to be done. >> mike barnicle has a question for chairman conyers. >> congressman, you've been at this game for a long time. you represent one of the more troubled cities in our country, detroit. apparently, what you fellows in the rest of the committee want to do is study, you know, police procedures and training. let me ask you, though, do you have any ideas of how we can reduce the amount of suspicion there is toward police in minority communities and attract more minority candidates to jobs on a police department so that it more reflects the community they serve? >> well, i think this is a long-standing problem, first of all, and these two tragedies and

others not well known give us an opportunity to examine and discuss and act on this problem. i was able to get into the department of justice. the pattern and practice law that allows the police or communities to investigate after the fact. we want more resources so that we can get into the training that's been referred to here and do more in terms of getting this understanding going. i see these tragedies as an opportunity for a national discussion, the depth of which we've never had before. >> that would be some good news coming out of several tragedies. let's hope it happens, and thank you guys so much for pushing for it. we really appreciate it. >> my pleasure. >> all right, elijah, john and bennie, thank you guys so much.

we look forward to seeing you on the hill very soon. coming up next, he chairs the subcommittee that funds the cia. senator dick durbin's with us next with his thoughts on the intel committee's controversial report. stay with us. everyone has questions about money. you know, i think about money kind of a lot. -money's freedom. -money's always on my mind. credit cards. -mortgage. -debt. it's complicated. it's not easy. i'm not a good budgeter. unfortunately, i'm a spender. i would love to learn more about finances. so there's questions about the world that all of us have, especially about money and finance. the goal of khan academy and better money habits and the partnership we're doing with bank of america is to give people the tools they need to empower themselves.

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welcome back to "morning joe." joining us now, the senate majority whip, dick durbin. good to have you on board, sir, this morning. >> good to be with you. >> a lot of things to talk about. agree with senator warren's concerns over the spending bill? >> now the wall street banks have parked themselves under the mistletoe and before anybody can make a move, we've got to get special treatment. this is a special consideration they want so they can gamble with swaps and any of their losses will be covered by the taxpayers of america. sound familiar? >> yes. so ways the possibility of actually getting this taken out, getting it changed without a government shutdown? and what are the -- what's the potential she will have the support? >> i just spoke to nancy pelosi.

the democrats believe this is an odious provision that should not be included. the speaker can take it out in the bat of an eye and i hope he will. this provision should not be part of the budget bill. >> what happens if they don't take it out? >> we've got a problem. i hope we don't get in a continuing resolution because the big banks on wall street need a favor here in this budget bill. they understand we're going to have a change in congress. they're looking forward to special interests getting special consideration. they ought to just wait until we pass the budget bill before we make these demands. >> senator, on another topic, do you think john brennan should resign? >> i think what's happened in the cia over the last 10, 15 years has really been awful. this report, that dianne feinstein released and senator john mccain supported, really makes it clear that the cia needs to be completely reviewed

in terms of their leadership and in terms of frankly their accountability for responsibility. >> you don't want to see him resign? >> i haven't reached that point yet. i'm going to wait to see what they say at cia in response. >> how do you respond to cheney calling this report full of crap, a terrible piece of work and something that was deeply flawed based on how it was curated, how it's now been presented, and some of the holes in terms of not speaking to investigators and people at the top at the cia? >> what do you expect from vice president cheney? of course he's going to say that. he thinks torture's just fine. it goes back to the days when alberto gonzales in the white house was asking for permission for the united states to ignore the geneva convention which we had signed and to ignore the convention on torture. it wasn't until "the new york times" disclosed the cia had

destroyed evidence, destroyed videotapes of these integrations that the senate select committee on intelligence started to move forward. theyish in aipted this investigation that went for years. during the investigation, the cia hacked into the u.s. senate intelligence committee's computers, for goodness sakes. now cheney has said the real fault's with the senate intelligence committee. he's wrong. the fault is people at the top who were looking the other way even when they were inform pd. >> steve. >> senator, a few moments ago, you said that this agency over the last 10 to 15 years, the awful things they've done. do you give no credit to the agency and the men and women of the intelligence services for keeping this country safe and the homeland over the last decade? what do you say to your former

colleague's senator arkerry's criticism of this report? and the criticism, not interviewing the intelligence community directly? >> i admire the people in our intelligence agencies for keeping america safe. what we had here, i hope, was a rogue operation within the cia. and frankly even this great agency needs to be accountable. to my friend bob kerrey, and he is my friend, he has to understand they pored over millions of documents, trying to reconstruction what actually happened in the cia. this is in light of denials by the cia that these things were going on. these cables and these ema-mail prove that was at best misleading. it's time the american people knew the reality of what happened. >> feisty on every front. senator dick durbin, thank you very much. up next, the latest in the massive storm barreling down on

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football has a season. baseball has a season. this is our season. a deal negotiated behind closed doors. that slips in a provision that would let derivative traders on

wall street gamble with taxpayer money and get bailed out by the government when their risky bets threaten to blow up our financial system. these are the same banks that nearly broke the economy in 2009 and destroyed millions of jobs. >> it appears someone has an issue with the republican spend being bill. good morning, everyone. it is thursday, december 11th. welcome to "morning joe." with us on set we have mike barnacle and thomas roberts. gideon litchfield. and the washington anchor for bbc america, katty kay. elizabeth warren doing a lot for her brand. the question is, can she turn this around. time's running out for lawmakers to avoid another government shutdown. the house is expected to vote on a $1 trillion spending plan with just hours to go before

deadline. it will provide funding for federal agencies through september. includes a 1% raise for workers. and the irs budget. there's a significant increase in how much wealthy donors can give to national parties. some of the financial reforms under the dodd/frank act would be reversed. the provision in question would allow big banks to merge trades and financial derivatives with traditional bank accounts. those accounts are backed by the fdic. senator warren says that will leave taxpayers on the hook for potential disaster. leading hearing to call for house democrats to vote against the bill. >> the house of representatives is about to show us the worst of government for the rich and powerful. we put this rule in place because people of all political persuasions were disgusted at the idea of future bailouts.

and now no debate, no discussion. republicans in the house of representatives are threatening to shut down the government if they don't get a chance to repeal it. that raises the simple question, why. the reason unfortunately is simple. it's about money. it's about power. >> is she going to shut down the government? >> no, absolutely not. >> she's protecting the consumer. >> she's doing what she does very well. >> what's that? >> speaking to financial disclosure and -- >> thank you, mike. >> -- the potential destruction of dodd/frank. two, what she's doing, is giving us a preview of what's going to happen every day in the next congress of the united states. >> well, we need that. >> which is the republican majority in the house and the republican majority in the senate are going to -- >> debate. >> they're going to favor things that elizabeth warren has been

fighting against for her entire career. >> what you're saying is favor things that chuck schumer and -- >> bingo. it's going to be fun. >> it is, it's going to be great. >> we need that actually. we need them to stand by exactly what they say they stand by and not equivocate. think about the american people and how they get screwed by these banks at times if they're not protected. >> i agree with you. >> 100%. >> is she right? you're exactly right. >> well, no, does anyone disagree? thomas, katty? what are the chances what elizabeth warren wants actually happens? because i think that might be an issue. i think this is very good for her brand. >> somewhere between 0% and 5%. but not a lot more than that. we're going to hear a lot more of elizabeth warren. whether we're going to hear elizabeth warren get things done over the next couple of years in congress is another matter.

there's no appetite in washington. either on the democratic or the republican side for shutting down the government, which is what would happen if we had to go back, renegotiate all this and try to get the repeal the dodd-frank provisions out of the omnibus spending bill. i don't think there's any chance it's going to happen. we're up against a tight deadline here. so this bill is going to pass. the government's going to be kept open. because democrats and republicans want it to be kept open. democrats saw what happened to the republicans last type when the government shut down. they do not want to be tarred with that brush this time around. >> i don't think they -- >> why are you smiling? >> she's going to occupy the space that ted cruz occupied on the other side of this -- >> no, she's going to occupy wall street is what she's going to do. >> that's ridiculous. >> real quickly though. he didn't even know about the provision that was put in here about raising contribution limits from 32,000 to $320,000.

chuck todd informed him on our air yesterday about that. the one thing that we don't have time for is debate. i think that's what mika points to and what elizabeth warren would like to see is debate. >> that's what's so maddening. they get these big bills. they throw them down on the floor. and they say vote up or down. or else you're going to shut down the government, it's all your fault. but can i read the bill first? you can't read it. >> the next couple of years, it's not even going to be that because it's just going to be a done deal. >> well, this is how -- the system will hopefully work. the president vetoes and then they go back and they try to do it again. so there might -- we might actually get some bills on the floor. we actually have a debate. >> now to the latest on the fallout from the senate intelligence committee's scathing report on cia interrogation methods following

the 9/11 attacks. outgoing democratic senator mark udall delivered a passionate speech on the senate floor. calling for cia director john brennan to resign. he also criticized the white house for not holding anyone accountable and revealed details of the classified cia report from 2009. >> cia personnel torture detainees to confirm they didn't have intelligence. not because they thought they did. director brennan and the cia today are continuing to willfully provide inaccurate information and misrepresent the efficacy of torture. the cia has lied to its overseers in the public. destroyed and tried to hold back evidence. spied on the senate. made false charges against our staff. and lied about torture and the results of torture. and no one has been held to account. the president needs to purge his administration of high-level

officials who are instrumental to the development and running of this program. he needs to force a cultural change at the cia. >> the white house is standing by brennan. calling the cia chief a, quote, decorated professional and patriot. brennan will make his first public comments about the senate report and an appearance at agency headquarters today. dick cheney who said he has not read the report is speaking out to strongly reject its findings. he alleg he spoke about the enhanced techniques. >> i think it's a terrible piece of work. they didn't bother to interview key people involved in the program. and i think it's sort of the classic example, which you see too often in washington, where a group of politicians get together and sort of throw the professionals under the bus. he is in our possession.

we know he's the architect. what are we supposed to do? kiss him on both cheeks? of course not. we did exactly what needed to be done in order to catch those who were guilty on 9/11 and to prevent a further attack and we were successful on both parts. >> this report says it was not successful. >> is the report's full of crap. excuse me. >> yeah, he's right, it is. the report -- when it comes to the brutality, that is something that obviously everybody needs to read. when it companies y comes to w program is effective or not, it really is for professionals. it is beyond debate. it just is. they got actionable intelligence. and i just -- i don't know, mike. i was sitting here watching yesterday. and i just -- i just noticed, there's really shoddy investigation work going on around here. i mean, you take the grand

jury's and the eric garner case. you take the grand jury in ferguson. neither one of those really were run like grand juries are usually run. and then you look at what "rolling stone" did and the uva rape case. like, they decided they didn't want to actually investigate it. they're just going to take one side's word and they weren't going to actually talk to the accused. well, that's one thing if you're "rolling stone." but if you're the senate intelligence committee, about to black a report all over the world that's going to hurt america's reputation, do you really refuse to interview the investigates? refuse to interview people that disagreed with their conclusions? including the cia directors that ran the program. including the intergators. they only wanted to talk to

people, as ignatius said yesterday, that helped with the prosecution's case. i just -- i think they would have had a lot more credibility if they had actually tried to get both sides. >> yeah. they're falling back on the excuse, i think it's rather a lame excuse, that there's a federal court case going on. they couldn't talk to several people within the cia because they were under the threat of legal -- >> they could have talked to the directors of the cia who all wrote an op-ed saying why didn't you talk to us. how do you have a report like this where you don't talk to the directors of the cia. who said, here, we have all of this evidence, miles high, of actionable intelligence where this worked? >> i get that. but torture is torture. and we tortured. that's not who we are as a country. i got to tell you, before we get to the torture, one of the stumbling blocks --

>> why are we listening to dick cheney? >> you're just saying torture is torture. that doesn't get to my question. if you have people that have mountains of evidence to come in be an talk about, okay, you think it's torture, well, let's have a discussion on what we did. they couldn't do that because all they were trying to do was prosecute. they were doing the opposite of what the grand jury in the eric garner case was doing and just tried to stop a prosecution. i just don't know why -- if people want the truth out, why are we searching for all these half truths these days? whether it's rolling stone, whether it's dianne feinstein, whether it's grand juries in cases where white cops kill black kids. >> because part of it is the old jack nicholson line from the movie, you can't handle the truth. we can't handle the truth. and part of the truth is rooted in a terribly flawed john u. opinion written in the --

>> why does anybody think barack obama has not fired brennan? he's got the best of both worlds. a guy who supports the program, still his cia director. he can go out and say this is really troubling me. is there somebody to drop a drone on and maybe kill an entire family? >> i will just go back to the truth we can't handle. the truth is messy and complicated. the only time when anything people call truth comes out is when one side is going after the other side. i think that's what you're saying, right? this whole thing was -- the report is really a democratic move. which is not how it plays abroad. it looks like the americans are being really transparent -- >> the only thing the cia exists for is the business of secrets. so the director who's a great guy and a nice guy and comes on the air and wants to defend all of this. you think you're going to get the truth? hell no. >> well, you won't -- >> you think you're going to get the truth?

no way. they're in the business -- >> it's the same thing with the drone program you're talking about. >> four, five years from now. who's to say another intelligence senate committee won't be holding -- >> there is tape from "morning joe" as barack obama was becoming president of the united states where they were talking about holding bush up for war crimes. and i said, do you really want to go there? because ten years from now, we're going to see pictures flooding in of little 5-year-old girls with arms blown off and grandmothers blown to a thousand pieces. and we're going to see the, quote, collateral damage from this drone war that we have. and do you want barack obama, a decade from now, being held to the same standard? the answer of course is no. i want to go to you about -- gideon talked about how it is a very ugly business sometimes that we're all in. i just want to know if you remember in the weeks after 9/11

while ground zero was still smoldering what everybody was saying on "nightline" and other programs, wringi ining their ha going, you know, we're going to have to do things we're uncomfortable doing and we have to make association with people we're uncomfortable making associations with and we've played it too straight and we've played it too clean and we're going to have to get dirty. do you remember that? because i heard it 1,000 times. >> yeah, and we all -- that was the time, do you remember, joe, when we were all living with the prospect there could be a dirty bomb out there. i remember having evacuation conversation, here in washington, d.c. with my kids and how we would get them out if there was some kind of explosion. it is a time of fear that is easy to forget now. and we were all wanting to do everything that was possible to try to protect this country. what the senate report asks is

did we go too far in that process and did we sacrifice some of what gives us our values, our moral superiority around the world, in that process. i enjoyed michael hayden last night. just as you guys did yesterday morning. it was really interesting, when you ask him about what he disputes in the report, because he said to you, mika, this was not news in this report. historically inaccurate. when you ask him why it was historically inaccurate, he comes down on this line that it was because of the actionable intelligence. he insists there were things gained from this process that were valuable. but when you push him on the tactics, he doesn't demur on that. he says yes these tactics happened. they're basically admitting -- he said, isn't this torture then? he said, well, it was tortures you. it's splitting hairs. he doesn't want to use the term. that's basically what he said, torturous. >> that's the information i think is valuable.

i completely agree with you. i think the report is flawed given the fact they don't talk to everybody. it's not bipartisan. it's also i think one thing that we came away with from our discussion yesterday is that you really can't judge these actions out of context. it's almost impossible to put them into context so many years later. i was there at 9/11. i understand a little bit about the context of it. it was chilling. it was absolutely chilling. i'm not sure i wouldn't make many of the same decisions. having said that, in terms of where we're going as a country, i want to read these reports. i want to read the drone report five years now. i want us to continue to evolve. and the cycle they potentially create in terms of threatening our security. >> i think -- yeah, i think it's important that everybody reads the report. they look at the excesses that were made. and there were excesses that were made.

>> without judgment maybe. >> and there were terrible thi s things that were done. i've got two big problems. the first problem is people coming out saying there wasn't actionable intelligence. call lekhalid shaikh mohammed s his guts and continued to talk. there were people that were inside after that were inside taking care of khalid shaikh mohammed. he actually asked for a white board so he could draw out the entire operation. and he did. and at one point, he went on so long, you know, these people said he was brain dead. he's not brain dead. he's one of the shrewdist you know what the around. at one point, he has to wake up one of the agents. he continued to go on. was lecturing them. the guy spilled his guts. that's one problem. people say they didn't get actionable intelligence, they're either fools or they're ideologues. they did. the second problem is these democratic lawmakers who don't want to put it into context. who weren't telling the truth to

the american people about their role in this. >> still ahead on "morning joe," cosmo editor in chief joanna coles and diane von furstenberg. >> is she coming to get fashion tips from me? >> apparently she'll rip people apart and give them the truth. i don't know if it's fashion per se as just the whole deal. yeah. so could you be -- >> no, i won't, i'll be in the control room. >> and a sci-fi twist. we'll explain that ahead. but first, that was so awkward going into your show today, thomas. here's bill karins, tracking a major storm about to hit the west coast. >> if it wasn't awkward, it wouldn't be entertaining. good morning, everyone. this storm for the west coast, this is no joke. you can see it wrapping itself up. it's now a very mature storm. it's going to be heading up there to the pacific northwest.

the winds are going to be very high from now probably until sunset in much of california. that's when we'll see some of the worst damage occurring. already reports of a 90-mile-per-hour wind gusts. we're getting winds strong enough now to start doing the damage and knocking power out. so as far as the heavy rain goes, we've already picked up 2 to 3 inches from redding. same with crescent city. now the heavy rain shifts to the south, san francisco, sacramento. by the time we're all said and done, this is definitely a drought denter. it's not going to end up by far. 5 to 6 inches of rain possible. san francisco around 2 to 3. later tonight, this cold front shifts to the south. even our friends in santa barbara and los angeles are going to get a quick batch of heavy rain and maybe even some thunderstorms with this very powerful winter storm for the

west. i mentioned those wind gusts. that's really the big story. we'll see how many people lose their trees and power as we go throughout the day. california sees its worst storm in nearly six years. you're watching "morning joe." ♪

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time now to look at the morning papers. we'll start with the guardian. allegedly damaging the world

famous nazca lines during a protest. laid out cloth letters that read time for change, future is renewable, at the historic site. authorities say the group left footprints during the protest which may remain at the site for a hundred years. calling it attack on all peruvians. >> you know what else is bad? being called a minimally talented spoiled brat. this sony thing. >> keeps getting worse. >> what people are saying. you know -- >> e-mail chains going back and forth between executives and between certain producers and talking about different celebrities and projects. it's amazing anything gets done. >> isn't that unbelievable? man. >> we get this from bloomberg. porsche saying its limited edition 918 sspyder has sold ou.

>> you can't fit into that. >> have to be a little man. >> little americans have bought this. the automaker says u.s. consumers purchased 297 models of this car valued at $845,000. >> why would you do that? >> the spyder, which is a hybrid plug-in, can get 6 miles per gallon. it sold the most so far in america. >> that's a good sign? >> americans have bought this. >> we have money to burn. why don't we just go back and burn it? >> i think it was the ceos. the "los angeles times." cbs says the final episode of the late show with david letterman will air on may 20 tth, ending letterman's 22 years at the network. stephen colbert will take over as the host of the new late show which currently does not have a start date. letterman is the longest tenured late-night talk show host. he officially announced his retirement in april. >> boy, that will be a tough

day. i mean, that guy, i've grown up with that guy. >> so many have, so many have. >> he's done so much to shape comedy in america. >> yes, absolutely. >> shift over from stephen colbert to stephen colbert. after months of testing and millions of dollars, the u.s. navy now says it has a battle ready laser weapon. the test aboard "uss ponce" in the persian gulf. officials say it is powerful enough to take out a drone or small boat. more importantly, it's cheap. each shot from the laser will cost the government just 59 cents. 59 cents. a common surface to air weapon technically cost the navy around $400,000. >> i could use one of those, one of my neighbors. >> all right. let's go to "the washington post." >> it's only 59 cents.

>> better than a -- >> joe, stop it. which neighbor you talking? instagram is bigger now than ever before with 300 million active monthly users. that figure -- >> the kids love this. >> puts it ahead of twitter which claims 284 million users. the company's ceo says more than 70 million photos and i ha s ane shared each day. he announced instagram will offer verified accounts at the t -- >> did you notice they're giving a -- they're cleaning up junk followers, you might notice a decrease in follower because of junk followers they're going to go through and vet. >> i'll just go down to three. >> i'll just go down to my mom and mika. >> they filtered out my mop m aa junk follower. >> it's the nasty comments. more on the fallout from the sony pictures e-mail hack and what one big-time producer

really thinks about angelina jolie. >> not much. brad pitt is going to go over there and beat him up. he'll put on his alexander long hair and the sword -- >> he'll be furious. or furry. we've got a lot more news -- >> boy, you really stepped in it there, didn't you? i keep getting e-mails. >> i keep getting the most disgusting -- >> you broke the internet. >> like kim kardashian. >> she didn't really break it. mika broke the internet. mika showed me pictures. they're like dudes dressed in the outfits. >> everything but is covered. >> and then they show, like, their animal parts. no, she's getting those e-mails on twitter. >> it's unbelievable. i don't understand. i really don't. but anyhow. >> i think i get the gist. >> i think i understand, yeah. i figured that one out. i mean, cosmo writes 16 sexy tips for taking down a furry animal. >> take the furry quiz. >> take the furry quiz.

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welcome back to "morning joe." joining us now, we have the editor and chief of cosmopolitan

magazine, joeanna coles. i've been reading the magazine i have a column in. >> good. >> we're going to get to that. i want to know what pressure cooker means. we have lewis with us. also for this half hour, i hope this is okay with you, but joe is the executive producer. he's in the control room. joe, are you there? oh, right. >> i'm here. we've actually got -- i'm very curious about this magazine, what raunchy rodeo and also lazy girl sex. we'll have to get to that later on. so you're going to have to explain to mika what a furry convention is. >> oh, god, come on. >> almost 1 million hits online with mika wandering away when we started talking about furries. >> is this still about people who are unable -- you know how british man are fixated with their nannies and matrons from school. >> lewis, are you fixated?

>> is the obsession something to do with being unable to leave a childhood behind? i find it peculiar. you told me you got some weird pictures. >> i am still getting weird pictures sent to me. i don't know. it's very hard to be serious about this. i don't understand the concept at all. it does seem sexual, sorry. >> let's also discuss the weird fashion nature of it. that fabric would make you very hot and smelly. smelly and sweaty. it's not a good look. >> starting off on a really bad note. at some point, we are going to put furries away. >> i hope so. these people are expressing their personas. their personas. yeah. >> we're preparing for an influx of contrtrolls, right? there's a troll movie coming. i used to be obsessed by trolls. i wonder if we're going to have troll -- >> maybe. >> i'm sorry, we have some great things to talk about in the next

issue of cosmo. i've got a column coming for you. >> just saying -- >> i want to do one on personal boundaries in the workplace. >> go on. >> i'm going to do that for your next issue. >> good. >> okay. let's get to some other headlines. documents released as a result of a hack attack against sony studios. more e-mails from top level sony executives are reportedly revealing embarrassing details about specific movie details and salaries. in one exchange, rudin refers to actress angelina jolie as, quote, minimally talented spoiled brat. executives were also reportedly upset that kevin hart wanted money to tweet. and wrote in one e-mail, i'm not saying he's a whore, but he's a whore. that's a bad word to use. and tom cruise playing steve jobs. he said the idea, quote, will be met with derision because it is such a commercial choice.

this is a horrible set of breaches that has really made this company look bad. every company probably has e-mails like this. >> well, this is every company's nightmare, isn't it? no matter what is leaked, the internal conversations. actually for a hollywood company, i'm surprised they're as mild as they are. scott rudin is a brilliant producer but he's also known as a man with a temper. i suspect there are way worse e-mails that he sent. but it is everybody's nightmare. and this is a real form of corporate terrorism. which is terrifying to everybody. >> yeah, and i think there's more to come. i think we were surprised we haven't seen worse. we'll see worse. there's no way. >> one of the interesting things i thought was i think details of salary packages were leaked. and one of the women -- the women were earning substantially less than the men, which is incredibly -- >> oh, good stuff. >> yeah, what great surprise there. >> well, good, that will be fixed then now. >> this is all in protest to the movie "the interview." i think it's going to have the reverse effect.

i think people will now go see that film than they probably would have. >> joe, when you delete your e-mails and then put them in the trash, you have to empty the trash. i don't know, does that get rid of them? >> do you have to empty the trash? right. >> i don't think so. >> the key here is just don't put it in e-mail. pick up the phone. you cannot e-mail this stuff anymore. it's clear. no wonder. teenagers are all on snap chat. they don't want anything like this. >> exactly. cosmo has a piece on kate middleton. say she can get a little sassy at times. >> but what fun that we finally managed -- >> she's normal. >> she's normal but she's modernized the royal family. the royal family -- i feel like the perfect analogy here is burr bury. this tired old sort of militaristic coat that people have hanging in their mud room. and what was going to happen to it. it was going to be tossed out. a bit like the queen. and then along comes this sort

of fabulous woman who is able to reinvent it for modern time. the royalty is a brand. it's a great thing for britain. between wills and kate, they have done a terrific job of making people feel like this is something they understand. she's done a terrific job. >> so this happened when kate middleton -- she was in new york at a child development center. apparently someone told her to wrap gifts. they said keep wrapping. she did not. and sort of rolling her eyes at the person. >> oh, she did? that was probably -- >> it went viral. >> i'm glad it went viral. >> news week is reporting the ride sharing app uber offered a woman a 20 pound credit after she reported being sexually harassed during a recent trip in london. this woman told uber in an e-mail that her driver invited her to sit in the front seat and then proceeded to use increasingly inappropriate sexual language during the ride. her e-mail reads, in part, quote, i am pretty relaxed and outgoing and i feel that i can

take care of myself, but i felt so uncomfortable, i dread to think how a more timid girl would have felt. uber responded with an e-mail that read, in part, quotes, while things like this should definitely not happen in the first place, in the unlikely event that they do occur, we have the full details of the driver so that we can immediately investigate any concerns raised. sorry, again, for such an un-uber experience. that was the last time the woman heard from the company. and you have an article that actually related to people who are traveling and how you can't actually -- what you have a right to when something happens to you abroad. >> we have an interesting piece in this month's cosmo about a woman who was raped abroad. she was in morocco. she was working there. american citizen. got raped at a party. and, in fact, what it turns out is that the american consulate, if you are accused of a crime abroad, is obliged to help you, but if you have the victim of a crime abroad, unbelievably, it's not. the british consular, other

consulates, will automatically send someone to go and report the crime to the police, send someone to the hospital. the american system is not doing that. she is fighting for those changes. she got the guy to jail. >> good story. joanna cole, stay with us. to american fashion designer to reality tv star. we're going to talk to diane von furstenberg about "house of dvf." house of "morning joe" will be right back. so,as my personal financial psychic, i'm sure you know what this meeting is about. yes, a raise. i'm letting you go. i knew that. you see, this is my amerivest managed... balances. no. portfolio. and if doesn't perform well for two consecutive gold. quarters. quarters...yup. then amerivest gives me back their advisory... stocks. fees. fees. fees for those quarters. yeah. so, i'm confident i'm in good hands. for all the confidence you need. td ameritrade. you got this.

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home. >> life will get thrown at you every day. you think it waits so you can get organized? it doesn't mean you have to be a [ bleep ] the way you present yourself, that's how people will react to you. everything comes from within yourself. everything. >> oh, wow. we could get some advice from her. >> i'm looking forward to it. >> up next, philosophy on aging, style and inner confidence. diane von furstenberg explains how she became the woman she wanted to be. ♪ (holiday music is playing)

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the show is made for the girls at cosmo. can i say that? here with us now, the head of her own fashion house icon er if stunburg, out with her new book. i did confirm there's a picture of my father on a bed with dvf -- >> on dvf bed. >> on your bed? >> on my bed. >> i have to get the story on

that. i don't think i want it now. >> i will look into the album. >> send it to me. >> i will. >> we want to talk about your show. first, the book, the woman i wanted to be. how long did it take to become that? >> oh, to become that. i thought how long did it take to write it. no, i became the woman i wanted to be very early in life. i was lucky. i lived an american dream very early when i first came to america. so i became, you know, i did not know what i wanted to do but i knew the kind of woman i wanted to be which is independent, deciding on my own life and all of that. i became that woman early on. but that doesn't mean that, oh, you become that and you just -- >> snap your fingers and make it happen. >> what i did in this memoir, and i talk about -- i mean, you couldn't possibly be more honest than i was. and -- because unless you are totally honest and you don't sugarcoat, there's no point in writing such a book. >> because you can get to where you want to go without some

rough times i think and sharp turns. >> and your life from outside looks as if it's been this seamless wonderful glorious huge moment. in fact, you talk -- there's a wonderful scene where you're trying on clothes in paris, feeling utterly empty inside. someone else sees you from across the room and thinks, oh, she has everything. >> i know, but that's what i try to say, you know, you always look at the woman across the room and you think, oh, she's so perfect, she's so together, she's so confidence, but she may not be. and she is looking at you, you are her woman across the room. and i think, you know, all these things, listen, i am much a much older woman and i'm in the autumn of my life so i've had a lot of experience. so if i could share this experience, i know that every woman of any age will identify with lots of this -- lots of little pieces. >> i love what you're doing with the show. have you seen "house of dvf," lewis? >> i have. i wouldn't want to be on your

bad side. you're very tough. >> i am not. >> you are gorgeous. >> i'm generous, but i say the truth. and to say the truth -- no, i love these girls. we had a couple of psychos but other than that, i love these girls. >> how has it changed -- i'm sorry to interrupt, but how has it changed today to be in this business? is it harder? is it easier? >> you know, i'm not one of these people who are that no stall jig. we live in the world of the internet where everything is possible. there's more of a democratic -- everybody can say whatever they want. if you like it, you don't like it. >> one of the things you do so well in the hoe is you tell millennials you actually are honest with them and because of social media and because, you know, people think just because you have 25,000 followers

somehow you have already achieved -- >> accomplished something. >> and what i love is the way you speak very directly to them. you know, you just said that's not going to work. this is what life is like. you have to figure out a way around it. >> listen, life, the truth is that it's every day. you know, it's not like, okay, i made it, i'm happy. it doesn't happen like that. >> it's a constant struggle. >> it's an everyday pruning, everyday plumbing. >> and editing. to lewis' point, you're tough on them and that is loving. i think we mistake -- >> you have to be tough and honest and rough. >> it's honest. honest. >> honest. and it can be tough. >> who do you think the hottest designer, like new designer on the scene is? >> i'm the president of the cds, council of designers of america. so i cannot tell you if i have a favorite. >> you can say there's a lot of very good young american talent around. >> a lot. >> it's a great time for

american fashion. >> we have a lot of young talent. >> the woman i wanted to be. diane vonner er ifurstenberg. i got confirmation on the picture. i've been wondering about that. it is so nice to meet you. you can catch "house of dvf" sunday nights at 10:00 on e!. up next, the golden globe award nominations. state ahead on "morning joe." take a closer look at your fidelity green line and you'll see just how much it has to offer, especially if you're thinking of moving an old 401(k) to a fidelity ira. it gives you a wide range of investment options... and the free help you need to make sure your investments fit your goals -- and what you're really investing for. tap into the full power of your fidelity green line.

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ok, last quarter... it's how edward jones makes sense of investing. ♪ hey, it's time to talk about what we learned today. >> i'm glad we didn't get to that topic. >> i read cosmo and i know there's sex for lazy girls too. >> lazy girls, lazy men, it's all good. >> you said spooning, lazy girl sex gets started with spooning. >> everything starts with spooning. >> well, that's what lewis -- >> can we stop? >> i like spooning. >> lewis. >> "boyhood," "theory of everything" and -- all nomina nominated. >> it's such a good year for good movies. >> there is one you were talking about before that was omitted. >> i'm surprised "unbroken"

wasn't on there. very clear after an oscar nomination for angelina as best director, this is a big movie. a lot of money behind it. >> michael keaton's "bird man" got seven nominations. >> i still haven't watched it. i heard it's hilarious. "unbroken" though may not have been on this list. it is going to be i think a massive holiday hit. >> huge holiday hit. it's one of those feel-good -- you feel better about your own life and generous and good to other people. good will to all men. >> it's great to have you today. >> what did you learn? >> i learned some stuff in the magazine that i write a column for -- >> come up here, come up here. >> why are you shrinking back? >> come on, be strong, know your value. >> what's the pressure cooker? don't say it -- >> i would urge viewers to try it for themselves. >> what i learned is -- >> do try this at home. >> i'll read it and lewis and i will go off and try that. >> lewis knows. >> i'm done.

>> no comment. >> hold on, mika. one other thing i learned. i learned there's a picture of your dad and dvf in her bed. >> yes, with another man. >> and you say it's hanging -- >> it's in my home and all my life i've been very curious about what this picture is. >> all i can say is i've learned mrs. brzezinski is a very confident woman. >> it's dvf's bed. that's what she told me. >> craig, can you believe that she put it up? i can't believe this. all right, if it's way too early. all right, good morning. i'm craig melvin in for jose diaz-balart. first on "the rundown," chro cromnibus or bust. in just days, the government runs out of the money. risking another shutdown. there's a trillion dollar deal on the table to stop it. some in washington are saying thre