this morning my question. what difference does it make if torture is effective? plus, how military rules are shielding a whole class of offenders who might be in your neighborhood. and hao lebron james is rewriting the rules again. but first it's beginning to look a lot like a movement. good morning. i'm melissa harris-perry. right now protesters are gathering in washington, d.c. where just two hours from now a march is expected to draw thousands of people, all calling on congress to take action in response to police brutality. the march led by a coalition of civil rights group, i colluding reverend al sharpton's national action network is motivated by the lack of grand jury drooimt for the police who killed michael brown and eric garner

two unarmed african-american men. this strategy of using nonaction to pressure policymakers takes a page from the activist of dr. martin luther king jr. his likeness is just miles from where the march will arrive. the the martin luther king junior memorial shows a single l transformative leader who changed everything. but in fact, history tells a more complicated story. king did not emerge from a stone. he emerged from a movement that included lesser known champions for civil rights who were both advise virzs and adversaries, whods names and faces get obscured in history. and this week a new film that offers a corrective was singed out for one of hollywood's highest honors. selma, which tells the story of the struggle and success of the

civil rights movement in 1965 received golden globe nominations for best motion picture, actor and director. the film shows his often contentious white house meetings to pressure president lyndon johnson for federal legislation to protect and secure voting rights. but this is not a film looking to make a myth out of a man. for all, it is called selma, not king. the story includes those who stood with king on the selma battleground. people who king recruited to the southern leadership conference and who was arrested on 124 occasions while working on the freedom campaign. women, a highly respected community leader who became the first african-american woman in alabama to run for congress. these people were key players, along with king rngs king 234

the true story of this small but significant slice of history. as we the city of selma zits. king and members were looking for an ideal stage on which to shine a national spotlight on the injustice of disenfranchisement. a previous anti segregation campaign in albany, georgia, had received little press because the the local white authorities could not be provoked into confrontation with the movement's nonviolent protests. the movement was looking to stage its action some place where nonviolence would likely be met with violence and therefore with national media attention. ch in selma they found the perfect place. it also had the perfect villain in sheriff jim clark. clark was a volatile man and segregationist dedicateded to maintaining the status quo under jim crowe. on march 7th, 1965, he did what the movement organizers thought he would do. ch that day civil rights

demonstrators organized a march to montgomery. they were protesting the killing of a young african-american man named jimmy lee jackson, shot at point-blank range by an alabama state trooper. when 525 protesters reached the bridge on the road out of selma, they encountered a posse of sheriff clark's men, accompanied by alabama state troopers under orders from governor wallace to stop the march. what happened next would etch the day in history as bloody sunday. police rushed them, knocking protesters to the ground. they chargeded them on horse back and fireded tear gas at the crowd. by the time it was over, more than 50 dplemonstrators were injured. they had a makeshift hospital to treat the the wounded writing negroes lay on the floors and chairs, many weeping and moaning. a girl in red slacks was carried from the house screaming.

victims had suffered fractures of ribs, heads, arms and legs, in addition to cuts and bruises. it also won a viktry. bloody sunday was brother or sister cad on national news, provoking many americans to respond with horror and outrage at what they were witnesses. and president johnson presented a bill to congress to ultimately become the the voting rights act of 1965. in the week that followed the killing of michael brown. instead of showing up to protect and serve, protesters speaking out against police violence and the police riding armored vehicles, showed up and proved the protesters' point. it was as much the police response to the protest as the protesters themselves that helped galvanize the movement that sprang from the first

fraught days and nearly four months later, bolstered by grand juries in st. louis and new york, declining to indict officers who killeded eric brown and michael garner, that movement is still going strong. today's march came together in the mostly peaceful protests going on in cities across the kund. that movement made its way to the steps of the capitol when dozens walked out displaying the hands up, don't shoot pose in a show of solidarity. on wednesday activists brought a list of demands to a meeting with the state attorney general. at least two activists in new york, the political became personnel when they experienced wh they believed were racialized responses for the police during the protests. sean and benjamin, both graduate students at union theological

seminary joined with the expectation of being arrested. what they did not expect was for the police during their arrest to treat torres, who is african-american, very differently from perry, who is white. sean torres and benjamin perry are joining me here today. so nice to have you guys. >> thank you. >> so talk to me about the fact, both of you are union theological seminary students. >> yes, ma'am. >> why did you go out there? >>. >> for me at least, i believe it's a call from god. as ministers of the gospel, because we're both ministers. we have a duty to not just be in the pulpit, but make our voices and show that we are actively engaged in these racial issues going on in the world. we can't just be comfortable in our churches and pulpits. we have to make our voices and presence known in the streets.

>> sew when you all made the decision to join in the streets, you went knowing that there was likely to be an arrest. potentially this police reaction that we've been seeing around the country. but you wrote a piece that the the two of you were treated quite differently in the con texas of your interaction with police. tell me about that story. >> yeah, melissa. so basically when the police showed up to arrest us, we were all linked up in arms. we had been doing the same actions the entire evening. we had marched together. we chanted together. we had die-ins together. doing the same actions the entire night. but when the police came, i watched as they ripped sean away. two of them. and then i offered myself up to be arrested as well. the police officer two tackled me, he put me down. i put my hands behind me back and he leaned forward and whispered in my ear, just get out of here. >> and no such offer to just get

out of there was made for you? >> no option for me. >> i also understand in the context of yours arrest, youed a several encounters when plisz were making you less safe as opposed to more safe. >> when we were in the jail, there was a i police officer who was manning the cell. he kept making remarks as if these aren't the real thuls that we arrested. the real thugs will come on -- when the puerto rican parade comes. we have the latinos come in. those are the real thugs. what hurt me the most is yes, i'm black, i'm african-american and latino. i'm dehumanized, criminalized and insulted. you already arrested me for being black. now you're insulting me, not knowing who sean torres really is. you're making me feel less of a person while i'm in jail. >> one of the things i keep wondering is whether or not these experiences will have a radicalizing, galvanizing effect

on the generation. so you know, it is possible that say going and putting yourself out there and standing in that situation, you may have never had that encounter with police. the likelihood of someone who looks like you having in this encounter with the police is less likely than someone looks like you having this encounter with police. i wonder if what you look like, what your racial characteristics are falls away once you have the experience and that becomes a galvanizing moment for movement making. >> i think there's a lot of people now who are saying that enough is enough. we have realized what frederick dug laz said was true. it's time to get out there and demand power, just like jooe suz did. >> one of the reasons i wanteded to talk with you all is neither one of you, is a martin luther king junior figure. who knows what you will turn into at some point.

but i wonder if waiting for a king, and i don't mean the advent season, but if waiting for a king reduces the capacity of a movement to in fact move forward, if you're waiting for one leader to show up and tell us what to do. >> i don't think we have to wait for one leader. are we on the shoulders of king zm i say we are on the shoulders of king. however, it's time for us to hit the streets ourselves. i see hope. i see hope in the protests happening around the country. i see hope in my friend ben who staid with me. i see hope all around. i believe if people want to this be the king or participate in us becoming a collective king, they would make their presence known. >> you mentioned ben staid with you. at the moment you are told by the police officer, all right. just get out of here, what did you do? >> well, i got up and my first thought was oh, they're letting

people go. and so i turned and looked and saw sean being led away by the police officers. it hit me what was going on. and so in that moment, it wasn't so much a choice to stay or leave, but oo moral imperative to stay. in that sense, you had the opportunity, the responsibility of bearing witness. i wonder in part then how that story helps us to understand what it will take to build a truly multiracial movement, out of this thing still deeply racializeded racializ izize in the experienct we're having. >> especially when we're out in the streets looking around, there's protesters from all ages, all walks of life, all ages, all religions. people getting together and saying enough is enough. >> you think this is truly sustainable?

>> i do. >> sean and benjamin, thank you for your courage. thank you for your voice. thank you for sharing your story with us this morning. up next, we're going to have a little bit of a how to build a movement 101. my panel is coming in. ids went le announcer ] take zzzquil.

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we say not only do black lives matter, but all lives and all people have a right to be safe. we will take this cause to the doors of city hall. of the doors of d.c. to the doors of all of those who have blockeded the ability for our people to be safe in the streets of america. >> that was at new york city hall on wednesday where protesters demanded that city

leaders take immediate action to address police violence. joining me now to discuss her protest is francis fox, distinguished professor at the graduate center, the city university of new york and author author "challenging authority." and vince warren, the director of the center for constitutional rights. and barbara smith, professor at albany university a founder of the -- river collective, publisher of kitchen table press women of color and author of ain't going to let nobody turn me around. 40 years of movement building with barbara smith. at this particular time to start with you. it feels they were as important to moving the legislation guard

by their reaction. i'm wondering if in this movement the movement could be stopped if police just stopped overreacting. >> police officers and figure heads like that, like ray kelly in new york, for example, have a tremendous role in galvanizing the energy. and essentially the police departments can either move this in the right direction, to the demands of the people, or they can resist. history has shown when they resist by force or blocking policy, that only has the effect of making people more frustrated, more angry, bringing more people to the movement. >> and providing the images, quiet honestly. i'm thinking about what's going to happen in washington. they are probably not going to come out and tear gas people. even if we get a large gathering and rousing speeches, my bet is it may not have the galvanizing

impact when the police react in these ways. >> that's exactly right. the police departments are interesting historical entities. they're the last group to realize that the ground has shifted underneath them. everybody else knows it's a new day. they're trying to say we're going to throw out tear gas. it's not going to work. if they continue to do it, it's only going to hasten the demise. >> my best friend is a historian and going back and looking at some of what king was doing, realized king didn't know the history in which he stood, a protest that came before him, for example in montgomery and birmingham. part mof what i'm interested in for you as a young activist who is engaged and value galvanizin movement happening right now, the lessons you are drawing from previous civil rights movements and previous strategies. >> for us, particularly for

myself as justice league members and those involved in the movement is we do have a direct connection to history. our founder is harry bellefonte. so we are informed of what the civil rights movement did. some of us are trained in the methodology of dr. king. and so we're taking the protest rights. they came out in large numbers. those are the lessons we're taking from the previous movements but using different organizing tools that allows us to organize. for us the way in which the members of the justice legal ve niz so qui galvanize so quickly, we were texting each other and informing each other where we were and where wrooer going to meet up. so we're taking the beautiful lessons for our elders and recognizing that we stand on the shoulders of many of those from the civil rights mooumt and

different movement. but we're also adding our own flavor to it. that's really what works for us. justice league is a group of young, diverse people. having people like vince warren and harry bellefonte and others, we were really blessed and so, i really think that we're combi combining both. >> professor, i wonder about the stories we tell about movements that are wrong, that therefore give lessons inaccurate or maybe incomplete. so to look at the movement and say what does it take to sustain a long-term movement. one of the things is resources. money. to ask what isn't important. if you had to name the things we should know about creating a

sustainable movement, what are they? one thing i think we have to recognize. and i have a sense that a lot of the activists now do recognize that. movements are not one big explosion. that they take place. they unfold over time. and they take somewhat different forms and different locals with different participants. but movements are long-term phenomenon. they're not just a burst. and so that's one thing that's very, very important. another thing that i think that this movement, and i think it is a movement, that this movement knows, is that movements are not just slogans. they're not just parades. they're not just marches. they're not just yelling. that movements have to cause trouble. so the society resonates to some

extent with the grievances, demands and hopes. so the movements are not easy, either for the participants or for the people around who have to suffer the blocked highways or whatever it is. which is, by the way, one of the reasons that it's so important for the sympathizers of the movement to speak out, to be loud. to come to the defense of the movement and echo the hopes of the movement. >> to be long term to be troublemakers who impose cost on society is to undoubtedly face failures. it feels like part of what happens with movements is they move forward, they get successes. they get pushed back. they meet up against the american state. they find out how powerful it is. i guess, you know, 40 years in a movement building and no one is going to turn me around, and yet, movement ls get turned around all the time.

how do we generate that sort of sustainability even in the the context of what is often failure? >> i think that what has allowed me to be involved and committed is that i had the bigger picture. in other words i understand how you can't predict history. you never know whap opportunities historical circumstances are going to bring to you, but you do have to be ready. by keeping up your activism. by always paying attention, by always working collectively with people, because no one has ever changed anything, except perhaps a light bulb, by themselves. so the thing that is if p you do all of that, if you keep your movements really active and kind of peak excellence, then you can take advantage of moments. we couldn't have predicted the political circumstances we were in a year ago. we couldn't.

it's not possible. michael brown had not been murdered yet. eric garner had not been murdered yet. i know those are terms that i can't use. >> right, right. >> they had not been killed yet. but here we are. och obviously there's a dynamic cohort of younger activists who have a great deal of respect for us ready to move. >> stick with us. we have an important investigative report we're going to highlight as well as an update on the king of the court and little bit of light heartedness next. plus more on movement building when we come back. in the u.s., real estate in hong kong, and the optics industry in germany? at t. rowe price, we understand the connections of a complex, global economy. it's just one reason over 70% of our mutual funds beat their 10-year lipper average. t. rowe price. invest with confidence. request a prospectus or summary prospectus with investment information, risks, fees and expenses to read and consider

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we have much more to get to. calling attention to the fact that black lives do matter. in nerd land you may hear a siren here. i want you to know, all is well, it's a live tv moment. we're going to get it all taken care of. but first, nerd land, tis the season, and we're looking for

your help. we tweeted out this request. nerd land, we're going retro. tweet us a pic of your fairlt childhood toy for sunday's mhp show. we have already seen images of classics such as lite brite. and peggy pen pal, who could write in any language you could. my own personal favorite was a doll called balinda which you can see here in a picture with my sister beth and her doll jenny. we want to hear more from you. tweet us using #nerdland with a picture of you and your favorite toy. we're going to talk about the toys we choose and what they say about us, our economy, race, gender and american culture. we're going to be right back.

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lgbt rights movement has turned itsz attention to a new front from the fight for equality. with barriers against same-sex marriage falling across the country, aed voe cats are gearing up for the next battle, the pass saj age of a comprehen bill. similar to the sweeping civil rights act signed by president johnson in 1964. the bill is meant to provide federal protection for lgbt americans who are vulnerable to dischris name and broad swaths in the country. according to a report released this week, today it is still legal to fire, refuse housing or deny service to americans because of their sexual orientation and gender identity in 29 states. in most states lgbt americans lack explicit protections from discrimination in employment, housing, accommodations. "the new york times" reports lgbt groups have been meeting

for the past six months to work on a proposed bill. the legislation is expected to be introduced this spring by rhode island democrat representative david cicilian. they expect the push into law could take a te did or longer. that means they still have a long road ahead. this issue is why i wanted you sitting here. they wrote decades ago now, above all else, our politics sprang from the shared belief that black women are inherently valued. that we are not abjecteded to somebody elsed because as our need for human persons for autonomy. that lgbt movements that feminist movements, race movements are not justed ed adj. >> indeed. and having read the american center for progress' report about the need for comprehensive

federal and lgbt states right legislation, i can't tell you how many times i wrote in the margin. so it's really there. for example, talking about how in housing that lgbt people of color are worse off in relationship to the discrimination around housing. they're being discriminated against as people of color, too. so it's definitely right there. i think reading the report made me think somebody got the memo back from the 1970s, when we wrote the collective. >> and that of course goes in part of the question of policing as well. so we know transgender youth are particularly val lly vulnerable policing. immigrant youth, or those perceived to be undocumented. whether younger or older or particularly again exposed to all of these questions of policing that are currently part

of the hands up, don't shoot movement. >> right. >> is this the movement that finally begins to explicitly tackle intersectionalty? >> of course. last night we had a conversation about that and really tried to be sengsal sensitive to that and making sure that there's this interconnectedness between us. we understand that. we're going to elevate that in our movement. >> and i've seen it. i've absolutely seen it. we dream of the dream defenders who came together around the trayvon martin shooting. and lgbt organizations without having to be asked or pushed issued statements when the grand jury verdicts came out. i don't know if people are aware of that. but they stepped right up. and a lot of the groups work in this section, right.

and so we're looking at developing a larger conversation, because it is about making sure that all people matter, right? that all of us are safe in the communities, that all of us are not necessarily discriminated against by police or are brutalized by police. that's where we're definitely going. zblch so black lives matter ends up standing for brown lives matter. undocumented lives matter. all lives matter. queer lives matter. all lives matter. so often we hear not that issue right now have. because we're doing this issue right now. and doing intersectionalty within movement somehow weakens movements. one cannot be a feminist who is also a person of color and not have heard, shh, don't talk about sexual assault. ft we're talking race schism. don't talk about feminism. we're talking about race schism. so what is the argument then that ber section work strengthens a movement? >> well, it draws more people

into the movement. their heartfelt issue is also being announced by the movement. or think about how early in the ferguson protests, low-age workers came to ferguson. domestic workers came to ferguson to join the protest against police brutality. i thought that was such a moving moment because of course the people who are the victims are the people who have to work at the the low-wage jobs or going to have to work without rights as domestic rights workers. if they are gay or lesbian or transgender, they're going to be doubly or triply discriminated against as welt. people see that. >> and police officers don't make a lot of money and desperately need unionizing rights. and over and over again in international movements, we've seen the breakthrough happen when the police or military

cross this line. to include the interest pof police as workers. could they begin to see their interest in solidarity with the movements currently over and against their power? >> i think theoretically it could. dl is intersectionalty in the bones of the people leading this movement. people don't know this, but there are so many queer women of color, queer men of color, who are running this. and people are following. and it's baked into what's actually happening. i think the challenge with the new york police department is that's an institutional structure. it's a particular challenge to get the folks representing the status quo to realize their oppression is aligned with the people trying to dismantle the system that they're standing for. that's something to watch for, right? >> stick be us.

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tell me about how this crowd and mood is different from or similar to what you witnessed in ferguson. >> on the ground in ferguson there was a sense of anger that was simmering. here you don't see the anger. there's a sense of urgency and energy bubbling now. you hear no justice, no peace. hands up. don't shoot. but when you scan the crowd, take a look at this crowd first of all. you'll see it's growing. people have signs. black lives matter. part of this is protecting the black lives who are all too often lost to gun violence, police violence. but in the crowd there's also folks with white family members and loved ones killed by police violence. beyond black lives matter, it's about addressing the issues related to police violence.

we see a miked crowd demographically, racially. that's what is different here compareded to ferguson. >> trymaine lee, thank you so much. we're going to bring you the latest on the march throughout the day today. i want to turn to my panel. and i want to come back. we think of a civil rights movement we associate with marching and particularly with the march on washington. one of the critical tactics in this movement have been the die-ins. >> right. >> not bodies moving, but bodies lying. talk to me about the strategy. >> i think we want to put a visual to what's happening in the communities. and understanding that black lives do matter. and it's black and brown, young people being overly policed. and it allowed people to participate. it allows us to come together.

one of the things that we were talking about earlier is that this is a movement. this is a movement of today. we've been organizing before this. there have been people doing this work for a long time. so when we came together so quickly, it's because we've been ready for this. we've been working with those that have come before us. as well as we communicate with one another. we have our people in florida, dream defender who is we work closely with. those in ferguson who have just begun doing this work and supporting one another as young people. and so we are united. we have a unified message. this impacts our country. this impacts our generation. and so it's really powerful for us, for people to see the hands up, don't shoot. because those are the last words

of those dying on the streets. i can't breathe. >> so you said earlier a movement is not simply a slogan. and clearly the images, the slogans, the actions become things. when i see the hands up, black lives matter, i can't breathe, i understand this thing is then part of this larger thing. >> that's true. but it's also true that a die-in is very moving. but movements have to do more than that. because movements, we're ub talking now about movements from the bottom of the society. movements by the young people, the black people, the latino people. the poor people, who have been so hurt, who suffered the hardships of an out of control capitalist regime.

let's speak straight about what's going on. so yes, they have to project their issues and their dreams. but they also have to do something else that is much more troublesome to in people who would otherwise be smik. they have to shut things down. they have to stop things. that's what strikers do. that's what people who walk out of universities do. they shut down the universities. it's not only symbolic, it stops traffic. and that's why it's so important also that movements have defe e defenders. the older people, the liberals. if they don't understand this, we agree with your issues but not with your methods. the movement method is very important. >> when you tack about adding

capitalism aspect to it and talk about shutting things down and making things uncomfortable. i think about occupy. which had that analysis. is this the movement? is and occupy did some important work. it got language and discourse on a presidential agenda, and then it also feels like it is not nearly as present as this moment. so is this just the back and forth fail and succeed? sh. >> i think it makes sense to think about it as a continue yum. and so there's value to individual groups. like occupy. being invisible, but active at this moment. because these are related issues, but they're not the same issue. i know for a fact there are plenty of occupy people out there and a part of this.

but we're new a new phase. another important part is how the leadership emerges and how leadership develops. and it's a very good sign that the occupy people and the black lives matter. people are not fighting who is running this thing right now. >> yep, yep. francis and vince are going to be back in the next hour. let me say thank you to barbara smith and carmen perez. also my mother is beside herself that you're on the show this morning. up next, how this 17-year-old died. i make a lot of purchases for my business.

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it's never been easier with so many networks all in one place. get live tv whenever you want. the xfinity tv go app. now with live tv on the go. enjoy over wifi or on verizon wireless 4g lte. plus enjoy special savings when you purchase any new verizon wireless smartphone or tablet from comcast. visit comcast.com/wireless to learn more. lennon lacey was found dead on august 29th, hanging from a swing set. local investigators initially ruled out foul play because they

said there was insufficient evidence of criminal wrong doing. but the details of lacey's death have raised many questions for the lacey family and their north carolina community. three weeks ago the north carolina naacp conference asked for a federal investigation of lacey's death. at that time i spoke about the case with north carolina naacp president, reverend william barber. >> these questions have to be answered. this independent pathology report is enough to have a full federal investigation. we must have a federal investigation. the family said if it was suicide, they'll accept that. we can't have the case go guard without all the questions being answered. >> now we have an update to the investigation of lacey's death. the federal bureau of investigation has officially joined the effort to investigate the circumstances of the death.

district attorney john david addressed the shift from his jurisdiction to the fbi's during a press conference yesterday. >> it is not uncommon for them to coordinate on the biggest death investigations. that is now happening in this case. and we wac that as part of the investigative team. it's vital we have the best response that we possibly can. and to the extent we're able to use their resources and investigators in figuring out exactly what happened, that is nothing but a positive development. >> after the news of the fbi's involvement was announced, we received this statement from lennon's mother, claudia lacey. as lennon's mother, along with his family, we are thankful for the decision by the fbi to investigate thoroughly the death of my son. i do not believe he committed suicide. too many questions remain. too many answers not given. lennon loved life and was

looking guard to life. we will continue to follow this story as it develops. and up next, the things done in the service of the people of the united states. there's more mhp show at the top of the hour. how much money do you have in your pocket right now? i have $40, $21. could something that small make an impact on something as big as your retirement? i don't think so. well if you start putting that towards your retirement every week and let it grow over time, for twenty to thirty years, that retirement challenge might not seem so big after all. ♪

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welcome back. i'm melissa harris-perry. right now in washington, d.c. a large cloud is gathering for the jus fis for all march set to begin in about an hour. the march is part of the growing protest movement in the wake of grand jury decisions not to indict the police officers who killed two unarmed african-american men. michael brown and eric garner. the families of both those men will be among those leading the march today. protesters from around the country have arrived in the nation's capitol for the march, and beyond washington, protests are also expected today in new york, in ferguson, missouri, and in other cities. later in this hour, we'll talk with one of the organizers of the march in washington. my nbc colleague al sharpton,

host of politics nation and founder of the national action network. but right now we turn to the other huge story out of washington this week. a bombshell report from the senate sbenls committee revealed the cia's quote enhanced interrogation techniques used in the years after 9/11 were much more brutal and wide spread than we knew. the details are horrific. a denan knee held from hypothermia. sleep deprivation involved keeping them awake in standing or stressed positions, at times with their hands shackled above their heads. waterboarding was a series of near drownings. interrogation techniques such as slaps and wallings, slamming detainees against walls were used. cia officers threatened at least three detainees with harm to their families.

an intellectually challenged man was held by the cia solely as leverage to get a family member to provide information. at least five cia detainees were subjected to rectal rehydration, or rectal feeding, without documented medical necessity. the last is especially horrifying to medical professionals. a senior medical adviser for the group, physicians for human rights said, quote, this is a form of sexual assault. masquerading as a medical treatment. the senate report claims the cia misrepresented the effectiveness of these techniques to congress, to the white house, and to the general public. when it said enhanced interrogation techniques yielded information that preventeded terror attacks and there was no other way to get the information. the senate intelligence committee concluded the the techniques just didn't work. the committee found the cia's

coercive interrogation techniques were not an effective means of acquiring accurate intelligence or gaining detainee cooperation. we took 20 examples that the cia itself claimed to show the success of these interrogations. our staff reviewed every one of the 20 cases. and not a single case holds up. >> the cia director john brennan defended his agency in a press conference on thursday, arguing that it got crucial information from cia detainees. >> the detention and interrogation program produced useful intelligence that helped the united states thwart attack plans, capture terrorists and save lives. but let me be clear, we have not concluded that it was the use of eits within that program that allowed us to obtain useful information from detainees subjected to them.

be. >> so this is the question we fine ourselves discussing as a nation. whether it is effective to subject people in u.s. custody to sleep deprivations, to near drownings, to really unspeakable degradations. whether by doing so we can get information that can save american lives. so we ask ourselves, does torture work? those who oppose torture says it doesn't work. like president obama who banned enhanced interrogation techniques almost as soon as he took office. here he is speaking on the effectiveness of what he calls torture. zblf some of these techniques that were described were not only wrong, but also counterproductive because we know that, you know, often times when somebody is subjected the to these techniques, that they're willing to say anything in order to alleviate the pain and the stress that they're feeling. and we have better ways of doing

things. >> orn the other side, those who defend torture say of course it works. here is former vice president dick cheney wednesday night speaking about khalid sheikh mohammed; believe ed to be the master mind of the 9/11 attacks who was subjected to at least 183 waterboardings. >> what are we supposed to do? kiss him on both cheeks and say, please, please tell us what you know? is of course not. we did exactly what neededed the to be done to prevent a further atta attack, and we were successful. >> this report says it was not successful. >> the report is full of crap. >> and so the debate has come down to this question. do enhanced interrogation techniques, does torture work to keep americans safe. now i want to ask a different question. if torture is morally and legally wrong, contrary to our values, should it matter whether or not it works? joining me now, francis fox

piven, distinguished professor at the the graduate center city university of new york. and vince warren, executive director of the center for constitutional rights. and dr. duhar. director of the heart failure program at the long island jewish medical center and "new york times" best selling author of "doctored." earl, part of the reason i wanted the to have you here is my sense that we've been having the conversation. so many conversations are happening in studios in new york, what do we not know about the realities of war that we ought to know? if we knew them, would they change how we feel about torture? >> i think one is maybe we need to talk about it as abuse. but when you say the word torture, the image comes up with the liberated torture houses

that i saw, that al qaeda had. the bloodstain walls, the smell of rotting flesh. that me, and the video tape equipment, so it's videotaped, to me that's torture. could we have the discussion about enhanced interrogation techniques, is it abusive? contrary to american morals? yes. i think the word torture is beyond. survival escape school. every single pilot, air crew, as well as snipers or special forces soldiers, who are s.e.a.l.s, they go through the training. every single one of those enhanced interrogation techniques is done to american personnel. that includes waterboarding. i'm not sure if they do it anymore. the box. food deprivation. sleep depdeprivations. we're taught how to resist those techniques. the difference is we know that

they're not going to kill us. but there is simulated sexual assaults. so that way it gives the psychological effect on the other detainees. >> these are practices by american military officials on american military men and women as a training for the possibility of attack. >> and the idea is that it's when we're taught, and all of the techniques are classifieded as well as the resistance thek nee techniques classified. one thing understood is everybody has a breaking point. not necessarily a physical breaking point, but a mental breaking point. the idea resisting interrogation is to put off the inevitable for as long as you can. this another thing. 6,70 page report has to be really looked at.

every interrogation done is done by medical professionals. and the two psychologists at the company that was contracteded bety cia to do this were psychologists for the program. >> okay, so i'm not sure. on one hand that is profoundly and critically useful to me understanding it. i'm not sure it changes my position on it, in the sense, particularly when you tell me there are physicians present. i think that's also part of the angst emerged. there were physicians present when this torture was being done on those in our custody, and apparently also on our own soldiers as a training technique, i keep wondering, are we just stripping away the notion of this as torturers? with making it normative, okay to do in part because we experience d it ourselves?

it doesn't mean what they did wasn't torturous. this was clearly torturous behavior. and the fact that you have medical professionals later rngs make ts it in my view just even worse. these doctors were not there to protect the prisoners. they were there to facilitate the torture. and any way you look at it, i mean, i'm a physician. i've taken care of patients for two decades. i've never heard of rectal feeding as a viable means of feeding patients. just as an aside, the lower gut doesn't absorb nutrients. this is not a viable form of support for the patients. >> this is from the report on the doctors involvement in rectal feeding where we have cia

medical officers discussing rectal rehydration as a means of behavior control. one officer wrote that the infusion, while the infusion is safe and effective, we were impressed on ending water refusal. another one saying that it helps to clear a person's head and is effective in getting ksm to talk. not effective as he hydration, but potentially effective in gathering information. >> if you want to protect a pashts, rehydrate them, you put in an i.v. you don't put in a rectal tube. apart from that, you know, you mentioned these two psychologists. these goons really applied completely discredited theory of learned helplessness to force these prisoners in horrible psychologically torturous positions to gain information.

and you know, you bring up the point. is enhanced interrogation productive? it depends who you believe. who are you going to believe? president obama or dick cheney? >> that depends on where you're standing. i mean, i think that's part of what makes this complicated. for many people, the answer to that is pretty easily, dick cheney over president obama. and we'll take a quick break. pchl what i don't want, a conversation about torture to this be is partisan. i want us to figure out if there's a set of american questions that aren't about whether or not i have to choose between liking or believing the republican or the democrat. as we go out, we're going to look at live pictures out of washington, d.c. where a large crowd is gathering for today's justice for all march. protesters from across the country are in the nation's capital. later in this hour, we'll speak with an organizer of the march,

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...guaranteed! ♪ sleep train ♪ your ticket to a better night's sleep ♪ . living our values doesn't make us weaker. it makes us safer. and it makes us stronger. that is why i can stand here tonight and say without exception or equivocation that the united states of america does not torture. we can make that commitment here tonight. >> in the immediate aftermath of 9/11 we did some things that were wrong. we did a whole lot of things that were right. but we tortured some folks. we did some things that were

contrary to our values. >> that was president obama, first in february of 2009, and then in august of this year. i play the two clips together. not to suggest that the president is contradicting himself, but to raise the question of what exactly are american values. u i wanted to come to you on this. we're talking about it in this context. there's guantanamo as well and conversations about the forced oral feedings constituting a form of torture. >> and they really amount of sexual abuse happeneded to our client. and we had never heard about this either. when you have a situation where the military is using a medical technique that has no medical value and it is essentially a breach of someone's physicality, this institutes sexual assault. we shouldn't have the debate nrn than we should value to slavery

or value to yen side. torture, genocide and slavery are all the highest forms of crime people can commit against each other. so really we need to think about prosecution. the only way to prevent torture and things from happening is to prosecute the people who have done this. this is not a question of values. this is a question of criminality. >> let me play brennan, who said something about this earlier. let's play mr. brennan for a second. >> in many respects the program was unchartered territory for the cia, and we were not prepared. we had little experience housing denan knees and precious few of our officers were trained interrogators, but the president authorized the effort six days after 9/11 and it was our job to

carry it out. >> they're saying, well, it was our job. you have front line folks taking orders. is it doctors going against their oath? the president who said it was okay six days after 9/11? >> everybody that had a role in ordering, designing, facilitating the torturous actions should be investigated and prosecuted. the sent r for constitutional rights has filed cases internationally. in spain, in canada, looking to hold high level bush officials accountable for their role in this torture. and we've done that internationally because there's been no political will here in the united states to be able to do that tochlt be clear, u.s. law prohibits this. international law prohibits this. there's no conversation other than how are we going to move forward with a meaningful investigation to hold people accountable so we can be assured that u.s. officials won't be saying in the future, yeah, it's

just a little bit of torture. i'm sure it was okay because it was working. >> professor, i want to let you in on this. >> well, i think we're not asking the the most important questions. torture is morally reprehensible. the defense of torture, well, it's effective or it isn't effective in getting information. but there are other effects of torture that are so important that are not being discussed. one is obviously there's almost a criminal gang in the government # in the security agenci agencies. they are not subject to accountability of any kind. what they do has huge effects of the future of the united states and the future of the world. you can't look at these horrific acts and not wonder, at least,

whether the experience of this kind of behavior at the hands of american agents doesn't have something to do with the rise of terrorist groups like isil dm the very part of the world we were operating. >> i think you're drawing a much bigger conclusions. i think these techniques when the rest of the world looks at them, besides the westerners. many of these techniques people were think were amateur itish. and they would laugh. i think we're overstating it. look at bbc. it's not mentioned on their news reporting. today. so for us in the united states, it's very big. but for the world -- >> really? >> the world is revolted by what the united states has done. >> political leads using it for a sway.

but the actual people on the ground, i don't think so. how do you now impose vehicle sanctions, cull culpability? it was instituted bety executive branch of the government. how do you say ten years are later, this was really bad. we shouldn't have done it. now we're going to hold these people accountable. this was legal. if you think about the torture as a program that does include doctors and lawyers and media, frankly, that it's very easy to create a narrative that we did this because we needed to do it. we asked everybody. the lawyers said it's legal. the doctors say it's medical. everybody is shifting the burden

away from the central question, which is the acts thaterer committing regardless of why we felt that we needed to do it, regardless of the political implications are fundamentally illegal. >> i think in many ways we've only begun to raise the critical questions to be asked here. thank you to francis fox piven and earl warren. still to come this morning, why important information about convicted sex offenders is missing from public online registries. and before i go to break, i want to show you the growing crowd in washington, d.c. right now. this is the justice for all march. protesters are lining up. we're going do come back and speak with an organizer of today's march. msnbc colleague, al sharpton.

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while serving in the army, he was convicted of rape and forcible sodomy. he was in military prison until 2005. now hoe cannot be found on any public sex offender registry. more than 200 military sex offenders are not on public registries. after the break, how the current military system enables these convicted sex offenders to evade registration. why the system is denying the public critical information about sex offenders who could live just down the street. is here, which means it's time for the volkswagen sign-then-drive event. for practically just your signature, you could drive home for the holidays in a german-engineered volkswagen. like the sporty, advanced new jetta... and the 2015 motor trend car of the year all-new golf. if you're wishing for a new volkswagen this season... just about all you need is a finely tuned...

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crimes to a registry before leaving prison. but that is not what happens to sex offenders in the military. according to a newly releaseded nine-month investigative report he found military officialses are unable to register sex offenders while they are in military prison because the department of defense is not recognized as a jurisdiction. like say u.s. states are. so it's up to convicteded sex offenders to self register upon their release. at least 242 sex offenders are not on public registries. like this man, he was convicted in 2003 by a military court of indecent assault against seven women. while in the u.s. air force, karr impersonated a gynecologist in training. her persuaded women to submit to pelvic exams and drew blood

samples. karr served time in a military prison. when he was released, he never registered as a sex offender. he reoffended in 2010. he committeded the same kind of assault. he's still in custody. and now registered by the state of wisconsin. one of the survivor's mother searched for karr's name in the public sex offender registry, but nothing turned up. i never would have dreamed anything like this could happen to our family. we live in a very small town. try to be vigilant and it could happen to us. it could happen to anybody. >> while the burden is on the sex offender toll register, military officials are supposed to inform authorities where the or noter pl offender plans to live. but the details can get lost in

translation. in karr's case, military court opinions accurately documented the crimes as indecent assault. when reported to civilian authorities, federal o probation officials says it showed karr committeded assault, which is equivalent to a civilian misdemeanor. he took his questions to the pentagon. >> should there be an aspect of prevention and response of further sexual assaults in the civilian community as well that comes under your leadership? >> in light of your question, we'll obviously take a hard look at that. so thank you. >> joining me now is skrips news investigative reporter and a former captain in the u.s. marines and cofounder of the servicewomen's action network. mark, what you found, is it a kind of purposesful bad act on the part of the military to shield these form r service people and thereby to shield themselves, or is this the kind

of paperwork failure that leads to bad consequences. >> well, melissa, i think it's both. first of all, the pentagon repeatedly told us that they in no way sanctioned the heinous behavior of the offenders. they don't like sex offenders any more than you or i do. that's where the rub and the breakdown is taking place. the pentagon will not release the location of where they discharged their convicted sex offender. almost every branch will not tell you what state they moved to. unlike in civilian society, they will actually let their sex offenders leave military prison before they register. >> so that reality, connected with -- you have come and talk to us on this program over and over again, which is the difficulty give tennessee chain

of command and how sex assault is dealt with in the military. it does make you feel like maybe the military doesn't take seriously the question. despite the fact that these folks were convicted during their time in service. >> absolutely. i still question whether the department of defense takes this seriously. you saw mark interviewed or asked that question at the pentagon press conference after the secretary of defense left that press conference not having answered a single question about military sexual assault. i wonder whether our leadership takes this seriously. mark brings up a great point that we need to see a system in which military offenders are registered in state registries before they are discharged from the military. it should not be left up to them. i mean, we've seen so many failures in the military policy when it comes to the military justice system itself. right now in last week's report we saw that convictions are down. as a total bpercentage of

reports, victims who reported through the unrestrictive proce process, meaning putting their names out there and hoping for a court-martial, that percentage has dropped. and so there's a failure in the military justice system to serve victims. >> and so mark, is this about sexual assault? my very first thought is okay, so in the context of sexual assailants, we have a registration process. but there are other crimes committed by service members. do civilian networks that would normally know, like probation officers and that sort of thing, who would normally know other kinds of offenders, who are not sex offenders, no if someone has been involved in robbery. is this about sex offense or a general breakdown around crime in the military? >> we're really looking at the sex offend system. the truth is the military does

send over criminal records to the fbi, for instance, for law enforcement to do national criminal background checks on people. one of the things as it relates to sex offends is the military has no ability to put the name of a sex offender into the the fbi's criminal background check system. their nationwide criminal data base, in the specific section of that, that all of the civilian law enforcement community depends onto check for sex offenders. >> so let me ask another question about whether or not sex offense is now different. a lot of what we do here is to try to talk about issues of incourse ration on the show and the ways in which once people pay their debt, incarceration, we put an x on their back, and for the rest of their lives they can't get jobs and housing. and then i find myself in the position of saying i want sex offenderses registered. and i want these sex offenders registered.

is there something different about sexual assault and sexual offense where advocates who would normally say, hey, let people pay their due and move on are now saying, no, we want to monitor and know where you are. >> the real difference here is victims in the military are even more underprivileged than victims in the rest of society. and that is extremely underprivileged. we have a military justice system that currently favors alleged perpetrators. so things like nonjudicial punishment. there's a policy in the the military called resignation in lieu of court-martial. resignation in lieu of court-martial. so there are a handful of officers every year allowed to resign from the military without seeing the inside of a courtroom. that is the problem. >> suggesting this problem is

bigger than those who convicted an served. thank you for your reporting and investigations. and for being here and talking about this with us. reverend al sharpton is joining me. ♪ mmm mmm mmm mm mmm mm mmmmmm here we go, here we go, here we go. ♪ fifty omaha set hut ♪ losing feeling in my toes ♪ ♪ nothing beats that new car smell ♪ ♪ chicken parm you taste so good ♪ ♪ nationwide is on your side ♪ mmm mmm mmm mm mmm mm mmmmmm

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i have $40,ney do you have in your pocket right now? $21. could something that small make an impact on something as big as your retirement?

i don't think so. well if you start putting that towards your retirement every week and let it grow over time, for twenty to thirty years, that retirement challenge might not seem so big after all. ♪ for months a national movement to address policing in communities of color has been gaining momentum. right now the movement is taking center stage in washington, d.c. where a large crowd is gathering for the justice for all march, set to begin in about 15 minutes. protesters have travelled from around the country to participate in the march. and demonstrations are planned in new york and other cities today. some younger activists have declared this a national day of resistance, calling for protests across the country. this comes just weeks after

demonstrators took to the streets in ferguson, missouri, to protest a grand jury's decision not to indict officer darren wilson for the shooting death of michael brown, an unarmed black teenager. during those demonstrations, police used tear gas to disperse the crowds, prompting a lawsuit from some of the protesters who say their right to peaceful assembly was violated. and thursday, they won a key victory. a federal judge in st. louis ruled police must first give protesters a clear and fair warning and time to evacuate before using tear gas. trymaine lee talked to some of the activists behind the legal fight. >> i was just running. my eyes were burning. i had to keep them open to be able to move. >> st. louis resident kiera describes the night she and other south side residents who thought they were in a safe space were faced with tear gas and police in riot gear. >> there wasn't an announcement

to disperse. there wasn't an announcement about unlawful assembly. >> she is joining a federal suit in command of the metropolitan area the night of the the grand jury decision in the shooti ing death of michael brown. they used tear gas to pressure protesters who said they were doing nothing unlawful at the time. >> had you been tear gassed before at any time during the protests? >> i hadn't. any time there's an announcement made about this is unlawful assembly or you must disperse, i left. i have a career. i have children. i want to express my feelings, but i'm not trying to get tear gassed. >> brendan and thomas are the lead lawyers representing the group. >> we definitely think the techniques to deal with crowd is illegal. the use of tear gas is illegal. the targeted group of tear gas against small groups is people. the effect of the shment is to

chill the first amendment rights. >> police dispute those claims. a lawyer for the the st. louis county police department told msnbc, quote, we believe that any actions that the county police took were consistent with our policies and did not constitute any excessive force or unauthorized use of any weaponry. a federal judge in st. louis is partially sided with the protesters, ordering police to give clear warning before deploying tear gas, plus, the time and means to vacate the area. it's not the first lawsuit stemming from policing in the ferguson protests. in october, a federal judge barred police from enforcing the so-called five-second rule that they had been using to justify arresting anyone who stopped moving, even on the sidewalk. that same month, an amnesty international report blasteded what they called abusive police practices, including the use of tear gas, rubber bullets and high frequency devices for crowd control. a psychology professor joined the suit to show how broad the impact the police response has been. >> it's often a stereotype.

those people should get a job. i have a very successful life, yet i still want to stand up and say i think we need to make sure we think about systemic racism and there are injustices in our society. >> joining me now from washington, d.c. at the site of the today's justice for all demonstration is msnbc national reporter trymaine lee. i understand there's been unexpected activity on the stage there already this morning. can you tell me what happened? >> reporter: certainly, melissa. thank you for having me. about ten minutes ago a small group of protesters from ferguson stormed the stage demanding to be heard. security rusheded to contain them. they shut their microphones off. m and one of the protesters who have really been a leader of the movement down on the ground in ferguson demanded to be heard. as you said, we've started this. she said i was shot with rubber bullets. i've been tear gasseded nine times. then she led the crowd in a chant of hands up, don't shoot. she said young people started this movement and it should be nothing but young people on the

stage. so as thousands of people have swarmed across the country here at freedom plaza, ferguson has not been satisfied with the energy here. so they decided to crank it up a notch. it was something to be seen. >> trymaine, that's interesting. we spent a lot of the first hour talking about the the question of a movement and whether or not what we're seeing now looks like a real movement, and part of what was true in the civil rights movement and many movements is the divide around localism versus national identity, young, new leaders and older established leaders. are we beginning to see some of that in this movement? >> reporter: i think we've seen this from the very beginning. especially in ferguson. so many spots trying to form groups of young people. all with a common agenda. some more radical than others. some work through the system. we're seeing that here today. as you mentioned, when you talk to old school civil rights leaders, they're split between other group ls. the naacp, for example.

especially for the veterans of the ferguson movement who have gone through all the confrontations, the nights after nights of tear gas. when they come to new york city or they come to washington, d.c. and see what many of them believe is a movement here getting permits, asking police to shut streets down. that's not what they're used to. that is that organization and those groups trying to mature. these seem to be the growing pains. >> yeah, although quiet honestly for many in part. that might be a suggestion that this is sustainable because of course unity is always false. there's always these interconnections. all of that said, the there are still some very key points of unity, clarity, what is this march ultimately all about? . >> reporter: exactly. now the organizers of the march against police violence and police abuses. they've gathered the families of so many loved ones who have been killed by police. so it's supposed to be about all

lives matter. but in particular black lives mattering. moments ago you had the teachers union president. clergy members are here. while it's under the umbrella of black lives mattering. this is a collection of folk who is are sympathizers on one hand, but also have their own issues and own agendas. >> thank you to msnbc's trymaine lee in washington, d.c. you're on the ground in ferguson. you're on the the ground now in washington, d.c. the thank you for the package you did for us earlier as well. we so appreciate your reporting and keeping us part of the movement. up next, how the king of the court is winning in more ways than one. ring ring! progresso! i can't believe i'm eating bacon and rich creamy cheese before my sister's wedding well it's only 100 calories, so you'll be ready for that dress uh-huh...

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once again, the book of sport and politics has been given a specific king james translation. on monday before the cleveland cavaliers took on the brooklyn nets, lebron james made a bold statement just by putting on a shirt. one of the most famous athletes

on the planet joined those across the country with a shirt that read "i can't breathe." james explained his choice to espn. >> obviously we know as a society, we have to do better, we have to be better for one another, no matter what race you are. but it's more of a shoutout to the family. they're the ones that should be getting all the energy and effort. >> and the king also welcomed a prince, prince william and kate had prime seats at game along with queen b and jay-z. lebron put his arm around kate and some brits called the photo op a royal faux pas. a commoner is not supposed to

touch members of the royal family. but kate didn't seem too bothered by it. the man who reigns supreme on the court is almost comfortable on the home court. he was recently featured in "rehab addict" for work with his charitable organization renovating a home in his native akron, ohio. and did i mention in the midst of all that, he's also been pretty good at his day job, basketball. he's a big part of why the cleveland cavaliers are near the top of their division. and despite struggling with a sore knee this week, lebron now has 40 career games where he's scored 40 points, five rebounds and five assists. only michael jordan has more in the past three decades. after his departure and return to cleveland, king james is hoping to win an nba title for his hometown fans just as he did twice for the miami heat. but sometimes, heavy is the head that wears the crown.

after the 2013 nba finals when lebron won his second straight finals mvp award, he was asked about the intense scrutiny he receives. he replied, i'm lebron james from akron, ohio, from the inner city, i'm not even supposed to be here. but in this moment, in this time, when young people from inner cities and outer suburbs across the country are standing up and making their voices heard, lebron james seems to be exactly where he's supposed to be. and that's our show for today. thanks to you at home for watching. see you tomorrow morning at 10:00 a.m. eastern. tomorrow, 'tis the season in a big way. we are talking about the thing on so many people's minds, toys. toys that raise questions about gender, toys that raise questions about race, toys that raise questions about class and the economy, toys are just fun. and we want you to send us your input. so send us pictures via twitter using #nerdland.

maybe we'll try to work it into tomorrow's show. now it's time for a preview of "weekends with alex witt." >> you're coming back in half han hoan hour to speak with us. we're continuing to follow the march in washington. also the pain of going public, the first female football kicker at the university of colorado tells me about what she endured when she came forward with the story of her sexual assault at the school. she's still called a liar to this day. angelina jolie's rough week got a lot rougher. the illness keeping her from her new movie premiere. and all dogs go to heaven? the vatican has something new to say about the story that's made a lot of dog owners happy. so far, you're horrible at this, flo. yeah, no talent for drawing, flo. house! car! oh, raise the roof! no one? remember when we used to raise the roof, diane? oh, quiet, richard, i'm trying to make sense of flo's terrible drawing. i'll draw the pants off that thing. oh, oh, hats on hamburgers!

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it's a big day in the nation's capital. two big stories developing at this hour. first up what you're seeing are the crowds gathering right now for a march to capitol hill to protest police violence. it is called the justice for all march. it's being organized by the national action network headed by the reverend al sharpton who also hosts a program right here on msnbc. also, the senate set to convene a rare saturday session. there's a lot on that agenda today and a potentially early sunday morning vote to move forward on the funding bill for the 2015 fiscal year. we have msnbc's kacie hunt and trymaine lee with us. trymaine, describe the scene there. >> reporter: there are already thousands of people gathered here in freedom plaza preparing to march about 12 blocks southeast towards the capitol. there are people with signs, some of what we've seen in ferguson that black lives matter. others have posted