there's not one way to do something. no details too small. american express open forum. this is what membership is. this is what membership does. the weekend war in washington. and good morning, thanks for starting your sunday with us. two wings of the democratic party will be squaring off here on this show today over where the parties should go and who should lead it into 2016. howard dean would be here to represent one of those sides and also today chuck todd will be here to talk about his new book about the obama presidency and how history might remember the presidency. following the news of last night's protest in new york city. up to 30,000 people taking to

the streets here. two cops were injured. we'll have all the latest details on that ahead. but, first, this morning, we start in the united states senate with the headline isn't that senators passed a funding bill last night to keep the government open for business, the headline is how they passed it. everything they went on behind the scenes all through yesterday and late into the night to make that vote ohappen. if the story before this weekend was all about elizabeth warren then a similar character ended up taking center stage yesterday. cruz and his ally, utah's mike lee that blew up a deal late friday night and forced the senate into a rare weekend session. something most other republicans are upset about, too. but this morning, many republican senators seem much more upsaid at cruz over his theatrics which they say, backfires. a $1.1 trillion funding bill did pass the senate on saturday night. the bipartisan vote of 56-40.

here on this list right here, these are the senators that voted against it. independent bernie sanders and put alliance on the same side as conservatives like rand paul, marco rubio and ted cruz. not too often you see that. as for cruz, he forced a point of order that he said might derail obama's immigration plans. this is a desperation maneuver and when the vote was called it was resoundingly defeated. the count was 74-22. that means 20 of cruz's fellow republicans. half of all the republicans who voted voted against him. seemed like cruz's own party delivering a message to him. bob corker who voted against cruz saying last night "while the president's executive actions are reprehensible and deliver a strong response, i

value the oath i took to support and defend the constitution too much to exploit it for political expedien expedienc expediency." last year his desperate push to the affordable care act and the cruz forcing the senate into a weekend session. harry reid still has that title for a few more days and used the extra time to muscle through president obama's outstanding nominations that republicans have been blocking for months and hoped to kill off for good in the next week. so, his own party turning on him publicly, cruz himself was trying to place the blame back on democrats. >> and every senate democrat is now on record casting a vote in support of president obama's illegal amnesty. >> all right. to talk about what happened last night and what happened this weekend what it means all going forward. i'm joined by liz mayor,

margaret columnsin and political reporter for "new york times." so, it is amazing how ted cruz always has a way, it was all about elizabeth warren. what this means going forward and it end up being another ted cruz caused drama. >> he is very good at causing drama. i think his problem for his party is all tactics and no strategy. how do i make a blow up happen and what happens the day after is the bill is passed and obama is going to push through 20 more nominees. he has more time because the session was pushed through. i just wonder how much longer until the people for whom he's playing this record start to feel, you know, is it really worth it for us? >> well, i think the problem is that a lot of the people who very much like ted cruz and i would just caveat this with saying within the texas senate primary, i definitely supported ted cruz and i'm quite happy

genuinely with him being in the senate -- >> are you happy with with what he did this weekend? >> no, i think what he did this weekend was counterproductive and there is a lot of value that he is capable of adding in the senate and the rand paul filibuster and targeted assassinations. i think that ted cruz did have a lot of value in the context of that discussion. >> but where is this coming from this weekend? what he did here? what is he trying? we know he's not taking this immigration action off the books. what was he trying to do? >> i think a lot of what this is, you have a certain number of people in the base of the republican party that just want anything they can do, even if long term it's not productive where they can stick it to somebody. whether that be sort of republicans in name only, establishitarians. whether that be obamas or democrats and all of them locked together and that is an emotional gratifying process and that's something that cruz is very tapped into it and does a

very good job of playing to. i agree with you, unfortunately, not something that tends to be as productive for them from a strategic point of view. i think, i think there's sort of the quick hit and sugar high and we can all sit here and make ourselves feel very alive and satisfied by eating all the doughnuts here. at the end of the day, we'll have to spend twice the amount of time in the gym next week. that's somewhat what we're dealing with and can we prioritize long term over short term and that's what a lot of the dynamic. >> if we do eat all the doughnu doughnuts, there's more back stage. >> it's a two-hour show. >> i already had one. so, margaret, the 74--22 vote on this constitutional point where ted cruz puts forward. i read his fellow republicans, a good chunk of them, trying to send him a message. >> he doesn't seem to get

messages. sticking it to someone isn't even a good tactic when you end up approving nominees that wouldn't have otherwise gotten through. the cost of sticking it to someone was really high. and, you know, when you watch what went on yesterday, it's like they all go to senator school. and, you know, they do the same thing. they button their jacket. somebody said they had to hold their nose voting yesterday. so, they all came out and were doing this thing about holding their nose because somebody got quoted. they're all in front of the cameras, but ted cruz is the biggest guy in front of the cameras. now, he can only peel off mike lee as his, you know, his wing guy. mike lee, who by the way, lives with senator tom coburn and coburn tried to reign in mike lee because he said it's useless, you've got to stop. ted cruz has his guy now and they're just a menace.

>> i would draw a slight distinction between ted cruz and mike lee because i think mike lee a lot of his approach on thing and we saw this with his opposition on immigration. immigration reform was moving originally, ted cruz was very vocal and out there and more where jeff sessions was which is more tapping into base anger where when mike lee was talking about it, his opposition was much more focused on there are things we agree on. >> but in terms of -- >> yeah -- >> in terms of what happened this weekend it was cruz and it was lee and it was lee who was on the senate floor friday night. it was 11:30 p.m. mitch mcconnell, the republican leader had cut what he thought was a deal with harry reid, still a majority leader for the next few days. mitch mcconnell cut that deal and said, see you guys monday. two hours later, mike lee goes on the senate floor and they

are, boom, they're in session for the weekend. is this a preview of what mitch mcconnell is going to have to be juggling for the next two years? he is majority leader. >> the lasting image from this weekend for me is harry reid smiling on his way out the door, right? he's about to be dethroned and going to be a mu jinority and te he is smiling. i haven't got these two guys in my caucus blowing things up all the time. >> but i have got these two guys up allowing me to get nominees. >> john boehner. you know, john boehner couldn't lead his caucus and now mitch mcconnell is caught flat footed. >> the senate was always supposed to be different than the house. >> these are grown ups. the cruz style, though, much more house. >> he goes over and leaves the house because they're more his people. >> that is exactly what i was going to say. while ted cruz is in the senate

and he is a senator in actual fact he is the de facto leader of the conservative caucus in the house. so, one of the things that i think is interesting about the way all of this played out is the house was capable of getting its business done and that's where i actually wonder if you see a little bit of cruz's influence. not necessarily just the vote in the senate and looking at how many republicans voted against him. yes, in the house, some hurdles to overcome. but predominantly dealing with hurdles thrown out by democrats, not republicans. to me -- >> that's the other piece i want to -- >> asks a question about where cruz is and where the party is in responding to that. we'll have to see. >> that's the other piece we talk about this weekend. the cruz stuff eclipse the warren stuff. but elizabeth warren was doing what you were describing. hey, house democrats, vote this down. vote against this and she sparked a rebellion in the house. >> you can see a populist coming together except that you have

ted cruz who is never going to join anybody else's. he's not going to get on her boat, even though sometimes there have been some strange alliances that senator ted cruz has formed with. for instance senator christian gillibrand, but he is never part of anybody else's party. so you could see a populous group formsiingforming. i was surprised when you had congressman and i think he mischaracterized. he said, oh, nothing can happen with this nose in the tent on the derivatives. well, there was nothing before that said the banks would be bailed out for this. but now they've got cover in this bill and she's absolutely right. the populous miran was totally wrong on that. >> i think that was an instructive moment. so many democrats in the house had that choice of, look, a question of wall street on the floor here. do you stand with elizabeth warren or are you seen standing with wall street. most of them stand against it.

most of them want to stand with warren. >> she was right to push it. in the future does she push it so far that, you know. if she has a chance to shut down the government, will it actually happen. does she push her to the next level? i'm not sure we're going to see that out of her, but the question is, is she a liberal ted cruz? does she go to that next level and try -- >> there was the back step. two-day extension and four-day extension. >> i would certainly hope on this given the substance because the way this was characterized when you look at what the legislation did and what we were dealing with in terms of the types of swaps, actually, the stuff that's really risky she says she's concerned about, they actually weren't lessening regulation on that. we are talking about swaps that farmers use to hedge against commodity price fluctuation and airlines that are customers of banks. >> yeah -- >> hypotheticals have a way -- >> i've heard two very different

versions of this. we'll leave it at that. >> politically, i think she set that up very well, though. as a dealt. i personally hate it and on the substance she's totally wrong. as a political strategy, that was very smart. but, yes, i agree, she probably would not go to the lengths of actually shutting the government down. >> we'll talk about what that means for her and for 2016 a little later in the show. right now when we come back, we'll talk about a lot of news about jeb bush. i have $40, $21. could something that small make an impact on something as big as your retirement? i don't think so. well if you start putting that towards your retirement every week and let it grow over time, for twenty to thirty years, that retirement challenge might not seem so big after all. ♪

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having to do with jeb bush's increasingly apparent desire to run for president. this morning we're learning that the former florida governor will release some 250,000 e-mails from his administration in a bid

for transparency. he's also writing an ebook. in "new york times" several prominent republicans including former secretary of state and bush family confident and john mccain nudging jeb towards a run. meanwhile, mitt romney weighing in on all of this, according to politico he's quietly telling friends about jeb, you saw what they did to me with bain capita capital. but this jeb bush feels to me, i'm seeing more stories about it. i had the impression maybe a year ago, jeb bush wasn't running for president. it was a while since he was in politics and the bush name is still going to be a problem. i got a sense he wasn't so interested. in the last six weeks i was thinking, this guy is going. >> a lot of chatter and some of it stirred by his people. it's not surprising that james baker would want him to run. a lot of people that would like

to get back in the game and do it through, do it through jeb bush. i would say, though, that some of the business stuff that even the more recent is surprising. you know, is he going to run by saying, i don't have as much money offshore as mitt romney? i pay more taxes than my secretary? you know, this is not where you want to be, it seems to me, when you're running for president. just having started a new hedge fund with all these investors. is that what you want to answer to. >> i had the impression he wasn't running. those were the sorts of things he did in the last few years that i think somebody not planning to run, also a point where he was -- >> he had the life of a post-politics person. he was doing things you do where you go make money and don't ever run for office, again. so, it's kind of fascinating. he was doing private equity deals and he had private businesses and a few of them had problems, as well. he's like, no, i'm coming back. >> what is bringing him back right now?

is he looking around and saying the bush name isn't the kind of pa baggage i thought. his own family? >> personally, i will just say that i don't think jeb bush is running. i still don't think he's running. i think he's trying to scare the crap out of every perspective candidate. >> what are his issues? >> i think the two things he is most concerned about where he sees deficiency in immigration. now, his positions on those, i think, with education, it's pretty clear that he has a position on that where he thinks overwhelmingly the vast majority of the republican party -- >> on common core. >> on common core specifically. if you're talking about education standards, but common core is a problem. on immigration, i actually don't think the popular characterization that the republican party and the republican base is opposed to some form of immigration reform is accurate. but i think you have a very loud and very vocal minority. there is a tendency for presidential candidates want to gravitate there. this sort of thing that i tend

to say is they're all a lot like 5 year olds playing soccer. they don't understand they have to play different positions. they all just chase the ball the whole time. what jeb bush is trying to do here is to be the goalie and command people to do of the different things on the field and i think he may be successful in there pat. with some of these guys running on education and on education it is more tainable. if you look at bobby jindal or rick sanatorium you're a hard right liner and everyone else said they're for immigration reform and as long as that is the case, i think jeb bush steps in the ring. i think he wants to understand people are a threat and if they don't behave themselves and play ball, there is a risk they. >> let me start with this, margaret. if he were it run. if he gets a nomination, that's a big if. but could a bush win a general election in the united states of

america eight years after george w. bush left office? >> it's hard to win the primaries, but be better in a general election, of course, because very appealing politician. he was the natural in the family until george came along. >> it was supposed to be a jeb. >> i could quote barbara bush on that. but, being appealing isn't enough in the, you know, in the primaries. you know, remember, common core was a bipartisan group of governors coming together and coming up with these standards. then you have obama touching it and putting his cooties on it and then suddenly you can't be for common core. >> i think there was that and also legitimately some rollout problems. >> there's opposition. >> when you have a situation where kids are bringing homework home that their mothers can't help them do. >> who can do the math? i can see that. >> i can't do any math. >> but in a general, if hillary clinton is running it offsets the bush name.

i mean, you're not going to be able to do the dynasty thing quite as much and each name has a little baggage with it. >> well, as you say, the big if is on the primary. more on that later. nick had reporting on that this week. we'll talk to him a little bit. nick, as we say, you'll be back later in the show and still ahead. the architect of obama care put the reform in legal jeopardy with the supreme court? that's next. [coughing]

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>> the night before last, i was at the candidate center honors where they honored tom hanks, famously, forrest gump. the ultimate in successful stupid man. are you stupid? >> i don't think so, no. >> does m.i.t. employ stupid people? >> not to my knowledge. >> lies on top of lies. this is what you have done.

you have been a co-conspirator and defrauding the american people and you admitted it in two videos in comments that i saw on tv. >> you see a trend developing here professor gruber? >> i don't understand the question. >> a lot of stupid quotes you made. that's the trend. >> you know you're in for a miserable day when the first question you're asked is, are you stupe snud democrats and republicans alike took turns this week skewing and the m.i.t. professor to help craft the affordable care act. >> lack of transparency is a huge political advantage. and basically, call the stupidity of the american voter and basically that was really critical. >> however, that is not the only gruber video is out there. something else he was caught on

tape saying could be a much bigger problem for obama care could maybe even help kill it. >> if you're a state and you don't set up an exchange, that means your citizens don't get their tax credits. >> it's an issue at the heart of a serious challenge to the affordable care act that the supreme court has now agreed to take up. at issue here are the tax credits that heart of the law. tax credits that are designed to help millions of americans afford health insurance. are those tax credits allowed to be given out in states that are allowed to set up their exchanges. 34 states fall into that category. they haven't created their own marketplaces, their own exchanges where people can go and buy insurance. but people are, nonetheless, receiving tax credits in those states. supreme court challenge says this is not how the law was designed. while the law's defenders adamantly insist there is no issue here, that other gruber comment that you just heard gives obama care's opponents a dream weapon. a much bigger gruber headache.

here to answer that question is jonathan and "sick." i won't dwell too much on the hearing because we know what that was. that was a show, a very political thing. but this, this lawsuit that the supreme court is going to hear. this is very serious. i know it gets very technical here and everything, but that, can you explain, first of all, how jonathan gruber who knows this law so well would have said something like that that would give its opponents so much ammunition. do we know what he meant there? was he misinterpreted. >> if you ask jonathan gruber, i remember when that video first came out. if you ask him what you were thinking when you said that, he would say, i don't know. he gave a lot of lectures. he's an academic and going around the country and at some point, clearly, he had this notion in his head. now, it's important to remember

and this kind of gets a little bit back to this issue that has come up in the hearing. you know, people have described jonathan gruber as an arct tect of the law. what we meant by that, he was instrumental in developing some of the ideas and when the obama administration was writing the law, he did the essential calculations for them of how it would work. which was very important to figuring out as they were crafting the law, what deals to make. what provisions to put in, et cetera. he was not in the room designing the entire thing. i think some people understood. it may sound strange, but, you know, parts of the law that john gruber is not an expert on. for whaut whatevtever reason he notion in his head and he was talking about it for a while. >> let's look a little closer here and i know this could get very technical but i want try to make it accessible. you have two issues here it seems to me when it comes to the

supreme court case and what john gruber actually said and the language of the law itself was written in a way that the opponents of obama care are able to claim. if you literally read the language, it seems to say that these states that don't set up their own exchanges, the people in those states can't get the tax credit. so, what is the legal case that the obama care's defenders can make to counter that? >> well, i think it's important to realize, i mean, what you just said is exactly what the lawsuit claims. it says if you read the law, literally, it says the states cannot provide these tax credits. it's important to remember what they're really saying if you read this one section of the law, literally, it is a very long piece of legislation, as you said. other parts of the law make it very clear that the intent, the goal of the law was to make sure that everybody in every state

could get these tax credits regardless of what decision their state made. and so that is actually the beginning of the administration's case. if you look at this as a whole, it's very clear what was intended. and, of course, it's not hard to figure out how this might have happened. legislation is complicated. you have many committees writing it. they merge the bills together and they take one section from one bill and take another section from another bill. normally, this would not be a big deal. most laws, most complex pieces of legislation that pass, they require what they call technical fixes because after the law is passed, they say, oh, look, this part, this section here refers to something that we then took out somewhere else. we need to fix it. it's a routine thing. the problem is, you have a republican congress now that is determined to destroy this law any way it can and says, ah-ha look at this, there's an inconsistency and we can twist this and say we can bring this to the supreme court and use this to undermine the law and

not help anybody pass it and not going to fix it and we don't care about the consequences. >> just a very quick question here. it was a 5-4 ruling the last time the court has agreed to take this case. if the court were to go against obama care and side with the people challenging it here. can obama care continue to exist? >> the first thing is it can certainly continue to exist in the 16 states that run their own exchanges. so, california, connecticut, kentucky. this doesn't affect them. in 16 states, it's fine. the other 34 states, it's not clear what would happen. obviously, those states could have the option at that point to decide, oh, my goodness. we want to create our own exchanges and some might do that because they might say we are going to have millions of people spread across the states who will suddenly lose their affordable insurance. or, congress could go back and, as i said before, you know, they could basically pass a one-line piece of legislation saying, yes, we intended for every state to be able to get these tax credits. then, you know, i think we will see a situation a little bit

like it was so much fun last night. something like the government shut down, the fiscal cliff where there was basically some kind of standoff and some kind of negotiation. and i honestly had no idea how that turns out. but i do know that if it is not fixed, the supreme court rules against this and neither the states nor the federal government act, you will have several million people who now have health insurance will lose their coverage. even those people who aren't dependent on those tax credits, they will see their premiums rise and the system will unravel. >> that is something to keep an eye on, obviously, as this case goes forward. my thanks to jonathan cohn. >> thanks for having me on the show. the affordable care act could be epresident obama's lasting legacy. chuck todd reflects on the obama legacy in a new book and joins us to talk all about it, right after this. is here, which means it's time for the volkswagen sign-then-drive event. for practically just your signature, you could drive home for the holidays

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>> chuck todd. stranger. >> he's so sad. >> it's true. >> president obama christmas shopping in a book store recently with his daughters and commenting on a picture about his time in the white house. it is a sad, lonely image of the president and the book is titled "the stranger." it was written by chuck todd. no longer quite so new moderator of "meet the press." chuck has had a front row seat to the obama presidency for obama's first six years in office. but because you should never judge a book by its cover or what the president says about its cover, we figure we would

talk to the author himself about the obama presidency so far. the book is "the stranger." you give a historical assessment of president obama in history and what it is looking like right now. shaping up a potential of a president's who wasn't realized. >> that 2004 speech at a moment where there had been, at the time, people were tired of red versus blue. people were burnt out on polarization. three years later, why was there excitement around his candidacy. hope turned the page. he was the anecdote. the anti-dynasty candidate and the guy who didn't have the scars of the '90s. the clintons or the bushes. here was a guy that was going to change the system as we knew it. change washington as we knew it. that, in many ways, was the

mandate i would argue he was given. now, did he end up with the presidency that he thought he was going to have? if you think about it, up until september 1st of 2008, he had an idea that would be his mandate, changing washington, doing that. september 15th, 2008, it all changed and that is a very fair sort of push back of why didn't the potential get realized? but, at the end of the day, i always believe his initial mandate and the initial rise of him was all fueled by this idea. somebody needs to change the system. it's not working. >> i want to play a clip here. whenever i think of the obama presidency big picture. this is the moment i go back to. clinton versus obama and obama is running on exactly the kind of message you're talking about and hillary clinton gave this speech in rhode island. let's just talk about it. >> i could stand up here and say, let's just get everybody together. let's get unified. the sky will open.

the light will come down. celestial choirs will be singing and we will do the right thing and the world will be perfect. maybe i've just lived a little long, but i have no illusions about how hard this is going to be. >> so much you could talk about. at the time, though -- >> by the way, absolutely should be her message for 2016, i would argue. i think the country will sit there and say, yeah, we were naive and too idealistic. i think the country is looking as skeptical and cynical and her best shot at winning over a skeptical, cynical public is saying, hey, i know this is not easy. >> not an inspirational message, just a message of, hey, this is hard and i can roll up my sleeves. >> i got the thick skin and the scars and i'm not going to shy away in a moment when things get tough. >> think back to '08 for a

minute and think to where we are right now and how you're assessing the presidency. we're going to change washington. do you think hillary clinton with that different message and that different approach, had she been elected would we be in a different place or hit the same obstacles he hit? >> i think some things would be very different. i spell this out in the book. i don't think president hillary clinton pushes mubarak out the door in egypt, tries to do massive health care reform, considering her own personal history being bitten by this. some of the things would have been the same whether it is mccain, obama or hillary clinton and that is the first four months. that is the $2 trillion essentially spent to bail out the economy and auto industry. it may have looked slightly different. that's going to happen, all of that money. >> that's a big thing that doesn't change. but her, her pursuit of certain things. i think the foreign policy is a

lot different than what obama pursued in the first two or three years. ironically, i think, now, barack obama in year six is pursuing a foreign policy that bob gates would have been pushing. >> you don't think she necessary pivots to health care. you also say in the book here that you go back and look at the roots of obama health care philosophy and you say it was on a whim, basically, in 2007 as a candidate he latched on to his plan for that. >> they didn't have a plan. an interesting story here. all of a sudden he's a candidate for president and they realized on their senate schedule they agreed to speak to families usa. he was a big player in the democratic party saying, hey, guys, we have to get universal health care. you have to do health care reform. they knew they didn't have a plan and dan pfeiffer and they said, well, how about we come up with a pledge. we'll sign health care form and we'll get it done in the first year, which, of course, hillary clinton would have never promised. she tried it and she knew this

wasn't going to be an easy thing. then as they put their plan together in many ways, obviously, the plan he ran on. at that point everybody had to have a plan, but the plan that they ran on is not the plan he tried to implement. >> there's no mandate. he took a piece of hillary clinton mandate and took a piece of john mccain, which they ran against and shoved down mccain's throat for being a plan to raise your taxes but took the plan -- they took pieces of everybody else's plan once they started making the policy. >> chuck schumer one of the top democrats in the senate made a lot of waves when he said health care was a noble thing to do and i believe it was the right thing to do but the timing was wrong because it sent the mesage to the american people at time of crisis. the politics of, you can look at it from the administration and say, they got it done. nobody could get it done and they got it done. do you think, though, that 2010 isn't nearly as bad if they don't do it then? >> i don't think the mistake is

pursuing it, they overlearned the lesson of clinton. they sat there and said, no, you have to let congress write this and we'll guide them which dragged the whole thing out. their problem with health care is it wasn't a 2009 project. it didn't finish until march of 2010. they actually thought that they were going to get this plan passed in september. that there would be a signing ceremony some time in september and october and more importantly, they thought they were going to implement this thing. that implementation would begin in the fall of 2010. by the way, maybe 11 or 12, which of all people, bob menendez said, are you crazy? don't do that in an election year. you don't know. and that's how the implementation gets spread out and delay wrd it was bob menendez only person in the room. it was bob menendez who said, guys, don't you know what the

calendar looks like? if implementation goes wrong, imagine october 1, octobi alway that. i say that in there, bob menendez saved the obama second term. >> we're starting to look to 2016. this is a weird situation because you have a two-term president with a pretty loyal vice president who nobody sees as the natural successor. doesn't look like he's going to run. looks like hillary clinton. we assume she's going to run. but from the president's standpoint, do you have a sense if he could pick a successor, who is his dream successor? do we know? >> i don't think we know. he doesn't view people that way. in some ways, you know, this is the nonpolitician in him. you know, people have, there's sort of superficial attack on obama that he doesn't like politics. he doesn't like washington politics. he doesn't like doing, he actually likes national. he likes campaigning and certain

parts. but he's not one of these guys that there's very few people he falls in love with personally. michael bennet is one of them. if he had a favorite senator, it would be michael bennet. i think michael bennet background is something like, oh, he's sort of an accidental politician. he loves the fact that he's a nonpolitician, politician. that's his roots, too. that he didn't sort of just wasn't all about running for office. but i don't think there is a person that he views. look, would he love, would he and some of his people love to see duval patrick or michael bennet? i think he views any third term for a democrat as vindication for him, whether it's hillary clinton or joe biden. i'll say this, as loyal as joe biden is to him is as loyal as he is to joe biden. his staff isn't always as loyal. maybe carter mondal would be the

only other one in our lifetimes or our era that there's a real preside president/vice president bond. >> that it ends up here. >> it ends up being a very, very tight knit deal. >> very interesting. chuck todd the book is "the stranger." thanks for joining us. >> thanks, steve. if it's sunday, it's chuck todd. even on "up." that was a fun discussion. we talked about elizabeth warren, the question, is she going to run for president? coming up, we'll head over to the big board to show why a warren candidacy might be a longer shot than you might guess these days. we'll run the numbers for you right after this. (vo) nourished. rescued. protected. given new hope. during the subaru "share the love" event, subaru owners feel it, too. because when you take home a new subaru,

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you know how the inevitability message worked the first time around. >> remember, she was inevitable in 2008. >> then came along an unknown senator. >> people saying on the record, had hillary, you've got to stop this inevitability campaign. lall right, so you've probably seen clips like this a lot. maybe the last year or so. people talking about hillary

clinton, the 2016 presidential race and the possibility that a democrat could give her a strong challenge in the primaries and maybe beat her in the primaries and always the comparison goes back eight years to this time in a 2008 presidential cycle and everybody says she was the big frontrunner then and nobody heard of barack obama and he came out of no where and he beat her. we said, let's take a look and let's go back eight years to this point in the 2008 presidential cycle and let's look at what the world of politics looked like right back then. let's look at what the democratic field looked like in november of 2006. this is right after the midterm elections in 2006. a cnn poll that was taken back then. you can see hillary clinton being described back then as the inevitable candidate. the candidate with all the money and the candidate with the name recognition and a frontrunner like we've never seen. 33% and obama at that point was clearly moving towards running. john edwards, we forget, a pretty big base on the left and al gore his name, his name was still coming up and maybe he'd

jump in late and he's running 20 points behind hillary clinton and john kerry wanted to run in 2008 and right around this time in 2006 stepped in and made unfortunate comments and that took him out of the running. hillary clinton clearly ahead and she was being described as we have never seen anybody this inevitable before. we'll show you what these numbers look like eight years later. this is the democratic field in 2014. same pollster, cnn, look at this. hillary clinton, 65%. elizabeth warren, we're always hearing the big challenge from the left could come from elizabeth warren, 10%. that's a gap of 55 points. remember, obama was running 18 points behind hillary clinton at this point in 2006. elizabeth warren 55 points behind. look at this, joe biden. this is sitting, two-term vice president of the united states. we just talked to chuck todd and chuck todd talked about how barack obama has this special partnership and this is not like

an estranged vice president. a two-term vice president running 56 points behind and bernie sanders and andrew cuomo, if he ever were to run. this, this is a frontrunner like we've never seen. to put that, even a little bit more for you there, hillary clinton her favorable score among democrats. 93%. vi virttual unanimously. i'm not saying she's unbeatable or unstoppable. elizabeth warren made a big stand and a lot of liberals talking about her. we'll see how this plays out. we'll talk about it later in the show. but starting out as we talk about 2016 and hillary clinton, the one thing we need to keep in mind, she is not in the same position now that she was eight years ago. she is in a much, much stronger position now than she was before. it is going to take something big to stop her. could that something big be elizabeth warren? that's something we'll talk about later in the show.

liberal lie ins who are leaving congress. what will the republican party be like without them? the republican party trying to find its own hillary clinton. we'll discuss that, too. e, when you are in a place like this, the best way to capture the moment is to feel it, even if you can't see it. many americans who have prescriptions fail to stay on them. that's why we created programs which encourage people to take their medications regularly. so join us as we raise a glass to everyone who remembered today. bottoms up, america. see you tomorrow. same time. another innovation from cvs health. because health is everything. introducing dance-all-you want new always discreet underwear for sensitive bladders

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apology accepted. i'm watching you soup people. make it progresso or make it yourself the new normal. all right. thanks for staying with us for another hour of news and politics this morning with all the focus this weekend on elizabeth warren's role on the unfolding drama on capitol hill. we figured it might be taking a look at some of the veteran liberals who are retiring and leaving washington any day now. what will the democratic party be like without them? also this morning, the question of whether republicans can find their own hillary clinton. we'll be looking into the reported effort that may be under way in the gop to coeilous around one candidate.

plus, we're also going to wade in to or moderate a little bit of a debate between moveon.org that is one of elizabeth warren's biggest supporters urging her to run for president and howard dean who says he is ready for hillary. you're not going to want to miss that. first, begin this hour with last night's dramatic vote in the senate. mitch mcconnell you might say welcome to your new reality. not exactly what you signed up for, but what you are faced for now. on one level, mcconnell has won. he and harry reid joined together to get a bipartisan funding bill passed, 56-40. that bill passed just last night. succeeded in keeping the government open all the way until next september. sure, have to wade a little bit back into this in february to extend homeland security funding but for the most part they bought themselves almost ten months of keeping the lights on in a bit of bipartisanship. but the real story this morning is the story behind the story. the long, messy detour that both

had to take to get there. politico reporting this morning it was all supposed to be finished on friday night. that was part of the deal. harry reid would get the republicans he needed to pass a measure in the senate and republicans would block many of for president obama's nominees before moving forward before the end of the session. republicans hoped they would be able to do that under that deal. but then ted cruz and mike lee took to the floor late on friday night to call for a vote on obama's recent executive action on immigration. the senate worked through the weekend in order to do it. so, that, that move by cruz and lee gave harry reid the chance to use the weekend to move through all of those stalled nominations. even as republicans and democrats fought over whether to pass the funding bill. so, 24 presidential nominations. two dozen of them are now moving forward, including to be the new surgeon general. ted cruz and mike lee did get some kind of vote on immigration eventually and maneuver was handily defeated.

the vote 74-22. and 20 republicans in total voting against cruz there and angry republicans then were left to ask the question. that vote, we got that vote at what cost? senator susan collins saying, "this reminds me very much of the shut down last year where the strategy made absolutely no sense and was counterproductive and i believe we're in the same kind of situation today." warren hatch, you should have an end goal in site if you're going to do these type of things and i don't see an end goal other than irritating a lot of people. jeff flake from arizona, "i was in the house for 14 years and i'm not opposed to lonely tactics, but if you're achieving something, that's the test. i don't see what we're achieving here. i just don't." telling, when mcconnell was asked if he was frustrated with his conservative members on saturday, he respawned to a pair of reporters with a wink and a smile. want to turn now to the reaction at the white house this morning. nbc kristen welker joins us from the north lawn. the white house was behind

getting this package through and had to twist a lot of arms on capitol hill to do it. what are you doing there this morning? >> look, the white house very encouraged by what they've seen, obviously. no doubt president obama will sign this legislation, as you point out, this is what the white house wanted. they don't love everything in this legislation, but they think it's a good compromise deal given the fact that democrats don't have a ton of leverage right now. republicans about to take control of congress. officials here point to the fact that there are some good parts of this bill that keeps the government open for a year, as you mentioned, steve, fund some of the president's priorities like increasing funds for the fight against ebola and increasing funds for isis and continues to fund health care. a lot of conservatives don't like that, of course. they don't like the fact that the legislation sets up a fight over immigration in february or that it weakens wall street and allows political parties to collect more money. as you pointed out sort of last-minute sweeteners that were thrown in. politically yesterday was really a win for democrats and the white house, not only was harry reid able to move through some

of those nominations that you talked about, but it sort of counterbalanced the fact that last week it was democrats who came so close to shutting down the government. nancy pelosi infuriated by the fact that she was cut out of this dealmaking process by the white house and by harry reid. she staged a pretty big revolt against the president over those goodies and all of this sort of raises some questions about what happens moving forward. how much will the president be able to work with his own party on some of those issues that he wants to tackle, like tax reform. like energy policy. and the other thing that sort of stood out yesterday, steve, was the fact that you have this tea party branch of the republican party still feisty, still not afraid of these fights. but still not strongenough to shut down the government like they did last night as some of their colleagues pointed out. they didn't have an end game in sight. no word yet on the timing of when president obama will sign that legislation, but we'll let you know when it happens. steve? >> the time is ticking on that, they're funded through maybe

wednesday. kristen welker at the white house, thanks for joining us this morning. >> thanks. a senior congressional reporter for politico and also joined by frank thorpre. i believe this might have been from you talking to or a reporter talked to mintch mcconnell yesterday and he winked and smiled. what's mitch mcconnell saying? he's not very happy. very telling, steve, mcconnell voted against cruz's constitutional point of order last night. the one that you noted that he was defeated 22-74. there were 20 republicans who voted against cruz. even if they, obviously, all agree on defeating and stopping president's executive action on immigration and what that vote showed was a protest within the senate republican congress by the incoming majority leader

himself. who believed what ted cruz was doing was completely counterproductive to defeat the president's immigration move and as well as to stop those nominations from going forward. there was serious, serious frustration on capitol hill from those republicans who had to race back to washington. they thought they were going to come back monday and said they had to come back yesterday. for what? they didn't see what was accomplished because that vote that cruz got yesterday, he was going to get that anyways. the senate didn't have to be there this weekend to have that vote and what you saw from mcconnell was saying, look, i don't agree ewith these tactics and a lot of his colleagues, almost all of his conference agree would him. >> so, frank, how did this happen? we know that mcconnell had an understanding with reid as of friday that they're going to be gone for the weekend and come back monday and mcconnell leaves the capital and tells everybody i'll see you on monday and leads on the senate floor and forcing

the senate into session all weekend. how did it happen? did mitch mcconnell check in and was he told, no, don't worry, we're not going to do this. did he not consider this was a possibility? it seems really surprising to me that the leader of a party could get blindsided like this. >> mitch mcconnell office said they had this agreement with snar re senator reid and they were going to go ahead and go with these votes on monday. senator cruz could have had had this procedural motion on monday. the procedures in the senate would have required that this would have gone, this would have happened after a procedural closure motion anyways. so, the fact that senator cruz went ahead and did his motion before objecting and forcing these votes over the weekend, which resulted in all these nomination votes and starting this clock on these nominations was kind of a procedural blunder in a way. but, i mean, and i think if we step back a little bi, the reality here is that you have this conversation about what

senator cruz did over the weekend and now that the fact that these democrats have these nominations, which kind of takes away from the conversation that was sort of revolving that you were having this kind of, this outrage from liberal democrats, including nancy pelosi and elizabeth warren that were fighting the white house against this bill. now, this conversation is about ted cruz and the conservatives and the republican party who forced this weekend session. a lot amongst the republican party on the senate side and democrats who now can go home with the story line wondering if this is a prelude into the next majority of the republican party will be in the senate. >> ted cruz has the knack for making himself a senator. in terms of what ted cruz was going for here. i mean, he got, he gets his vote, half the republicans vote against him on that. republicans are going on the record, as we showed you there, speaking out against ted cruz. does this, i guess i could see this two ways. one, does this bother him in

some way that his colleagues are doing this to him? reaching like a level of critical mass with his colleagues maybe or is ted cruz's game, hey, the more politicians on capitol hill attack me the better i look to the base. does this change him in any way or embolden him? >> this plays into his political strategy which is he is a guy who is there fighting the republican establishment and fighting the democratic establishment and speaking to the conservative grassroots. this is exactly the kind of narrative that he needs going in to a very likely 2016 presidential run. he is poining to the tea party base and the folks in iowa, the caucus, the south carolina primary. those are the folks that ted cruz needs to win a presidential primary. if he can show, hey, i fought with my party to defund obama care and if i fought with my party to end the president's executive action and they are not listening to me. i'm the one who is leading, taging these unpopular stance

and look at all my republican colleagues who are upset. that is good for him politically, nationally. what doesn't really work inside the dome, inside the capital and getting an agenda through, but it certainly helps in that narrative that he wants to push heading into 2016. >> not too many senate staffers are going to vote in the iowa caucuses. thanks, both, for joining us this morning. appreciate that. >> thanks, steve. still ahead, what is the democratic party going to do without them? the veteran lawmakers who are leaving congress. that's next.

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senator elizabeth warren gave a preview of what the next session of congress is going to look like leading a democratic caucus that is sometimes willing

to use the tough tactics that you'll use with the tea party. not your father's progressive wing of the democratic party and with so many members on the left now leaving, that's because it has to be. congressman henry waxman is retiring after 40 years in the house. among other things, he made major league baseball get tough on steroid use and the ceos of every tobacco company stood up on capitol hill and said the cigarettes aren't addictive. they were doing that before a henry waxman hearing. also from california, there's congressman george miller, one of the democrats who also came to washington 40 year uz go in the watergate backlash. a watergate baby they called him back then. he mentored nancy pelosi and relied on her ever since. what is pelosi going to do without him? everyone is thinking about and wishing the best this weekend congressman john dingle who served in congress longer than anybody else. 59 years. dingle was hospitalized on

friday in washington with what his wife says is a hairline hip fracture from a fall he took last week. he took that fall last week that means dingle already had that fracture during his last days in the house this week. debbie dingle, who won her husband's seat in november and will succeed him said it was only by sheer grit and determination that he didn't miss his final vote. on the senate side, jay rockefeller of west virginia in 1964. he was a new york native from that family of rockefellers and went to study poverty and hasn't left since. first as a governor and for the last 30 years in the senate. our friend e.j. expressed gratitude in a recent column that these gentlemen and others have served. we should make our holiday thanks to them. e.j. joins us now. so, e.j., it was a good column, although, have you thanked a politician today angle may not be the most populous thing i

ever heard. it makes some good points there and i want to talk about the contrast between some of the people you're describing and some of the people you salute in that column and where we are right now because this seems like a changing of the guard moment. when we talk about a waxman or a george miller. talking about people who politically came of age during and around watergate. the watergate babies and the class of 1974 and their sense of the possibility of politics was maybe set in stone back then. now, this weekend, we're talking about elizabeth warren and her role in the democratic party and you look at elizabeth warren and she came of age politically because of the wall street meltdown. it seems like there is a generational changing of the guards here that could be very significant for the party. >> there is a generational change, although it's part of the same, in many ways, part of the same tradition and the same battle. and i appreciate you mentioning the column because i wrote it in part because i thought it would jar people to have a headline that says, thank a politician today. we are so frustrated with

politics. so many americans are that we forget there are actually people and i mention people in both parties for our republican friends out there who go into politics to try and do the right thing. my favorite line on politics which i share whenever i can is from the philosopher mike sandell. when politics goes well, we know a good in common that we cannot know alone. when you look at people in the congress now, people like elizabeth warren, people like sharon brown and al franklin and sheldon white all progressive senators, i think they are fighting in the tradition of henry waxman and jay rockefeller and george miller. they are fighting under much different circumstances. in many ways they are fighting under much more difficult circumstances. the republican party was far last tilted to the right than it is to today. one of the republicans i

mentioned in my piece congressman dave camp we know him now because he's stepping down as chair of the ways and means committee we know a lot of good work on foster care and adoption and he did that work with jay rockefeller and the late john chafee. so, the new progressives are in a more difficult time, but forgressives have been in difficult time before. think the 1920s. so they can get past this, too. >> i guess, it's interesting because the republican party of the '70s, the '80s and even the '90s not nearly as conservative. there were genuine republicans in the party back then. i guess you could say something on the democratic side. more liberal than it used to be. a lot of southern democrats and the blue dogs we came to call them and that's pretty much gone now. the democratic party that emerges from the 2014 election, much more progressive and much more liberal at its heart. >> i think that's true, although i put it a little differently

because that sort of line of argument suggests well both parties have gone to the extremes. i just don't see it that way. i do think the republican party both in its representation in congress and in its primary voters has moved well to the right of where it was. in the democratic party, what you lost was the right wing segregationist part of the party and all those districts, most of those states are now represented by conservatives. but you still have a sizable body of moderate, moderately liberal democrats and look at the split in the house this week on whether to vote. you had 57 democrats who voted yes and 139 who voted no. so, i think there is still more diversity of view. but, yes, the party as a whole has moved to the left of where it was in 1960 because the segregationists are gone.

>> very quickly, looking at the role elizabeth warren played this weekend and we'll talk about it more later in the show. has she established herself as the de facto leader of today's liberal progressive movement? >> i think she may have established that even before she got elected, but, yes, i think this was a decisive moment, but i think it's also significant that speaker pelosi took the stand that most house democrats took this stand. i think elizabeth warren saw this provision gutting financial reform and it was right in her wheel house. but at the same time, a lot of other people around the hill were reading this bill and saw that provision in tandem with undercutting restrictions on campaign donations by rich people and it just created a spontaneous reaction. so, you have warren as a central figure, but you have an awful lot of other progressives who are ready to take that, to go in that direction. >> all right. e.j. dion, thanks for joining us

this morning. really appreciate it. >> i'm sorry. >> thanks for joining us and have a great day. >> thank you so much, steve. take care. do you remember when american politics was aall about colonies and the moon and something called the 99 plan. a bunch of donors do and they want to do something about it, that's next. and the 45 highway mpg tdi clean diesel. and last but not least, the high performance gti. looks like we're gonna need a bigger podium. the volkswagen golf family. motor trend's 2015 "cars" of the year.

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campbell's healthy request. you're not doing anything hand, as fast as you used to. do you need help? what is that? swiffer dusters. i can extend it so i don't have to get on the step stool. it's like a dirt magnet just like my kids. i think swiffer definitely gave me some of that time back. and i quit smoking with chantix. i had tried to do it in the past. i hadn't been successful. quitting smoking this time was different because i got a prescription for chantix. along with support, chantix (varenicline) is proven to help people quit smoking. the fact that it reduced the urge to smoke helped me get that confidence that i could do it. some people had changes in behavior, thinking or mood, hostility, agitation, depressed mood and suicidal thoughts or actions while taking or after stopping chantix. some people had seizures while taking chantix. if you notice any of these, stop chantix and call your doctor right away. tell your doctor about any history of mental health problems, which could get worse while taking chantix or history of seizures. don' take chantix if you've had a serious allergic or skin reaction to it. if you develop these, stop chantix and see your doctor right away as some can be life-threatening. tell your doctor if you have a history of heart

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among the gop elite with the fear that the side show was damaging the party. there appears to be now a plan in the works to keep that from happening, again, this time around. the "new york times" reporting that establishment republican donors are quietly discussing how to clear the field for a favored candidate. one single candidate who would get the nod in a clear path to victory. this is a desire that stems in part from a fear that a prolonged primary in which republicans keep attacking each other would benefit the democratic nominee. the candidates are said to be narrowing it down to are for now jeb bush, mitt romney, and chris christie. so, who is the they who is deciding this? what is the incentive for sitting it out. if you're one of the candidates they don't want back and how do you get rand paul or rick santorum or any of the others lining up to run to do the same? a lot to get here and we have nick, the "new york times" reporter who wrote that story. nick, welcome back to the table.

okay, gop elites. they don't want a repeat of 2012. they're thinking bush, they're thinking christie and thinking romney. who are these elites that we're talking about? >> around the country probably 500 fund-raisers and donors that do a lot of the heavy lifting for these campaigns year in and year out. mostly behind the scenes figure. but these guys are talking amongst themselves and saying, you know what, all of us have ties to these three main stream candidates. and what happens if we split up and each get behind a couple of them. and end up in these camps who are raising $100 million for each of these guys in a primary. that money is just going to bash each other and hurt the party and maybe even pave the way for a second or third candidate who can't win. >> that's right. so there's talk of is there a way we can all get together and try, you know, either anoint somebody by getting them money or, you know, steer clear for a bit and hold our powder until

the primary plays out a bit until next summer and we see if one of these guys stumble and then kind of rush it. >> back in 2000, george w. bush, the republican field looked wide open at first heading into 2000 and all the money, i remember this in the first and second quarter of 1999 in shocking ways went to george w. bush and eight candidates dropped out of the race. george w. bush emerged as the obvious one. when you look at these three right here, i mean, i could see baggage with each one of them. mitt romney run before and he lost. jeb bush, you have the bush family name. bush baggage from iraq and chris christie bridge, who knows what will happen with that. how are they looking at these three? >> they see all the flaws and there's no problem. no person that is unblemished and, you know, for each of these guys. christie can't raise money from wall street in the same way because he is governor. >> illegal restriction. >> you know, the bushes haven't had a presidential campaign in a

decade. and, yes, there's a great network and they raised a ton of money for his library, for example. but the question is, how many of these guys who have been around the block on two or three or four campaigns are going to get up and bundle, raise money, call donors and do that hard work for bush. and for mitt romney, obviously, there is this issue of kind of really, again, accept. he is well loved in this donor community. people like him. and a feeling that he has been validated for the last year. everything he warned about obama has come true. that is where that comes from. >> here's the thing i wonder psychologically. so many based on the wealth and private equity and all that stuff. we're talking about very rich stuff. mitt romney is validated and do they feel personally vatidated? does that work into it at all? >> i think so. it's kind of fascinating how bush, right, has also had some of these ties in private equity. the difference is for romney it was his calling card and his

rationale for running. the substance of that business leader and his experience was hard to sell to people. bush, you know, he's been a governor. he's got education reform and all these other pieces to the puzzle. >> it's not front and center with him. >> nick, great article. fascinating story line. thanks for joining us this morning. up ahead, we'll talk about another candidate trying to get in the race for president and one who is staying out and, plus, the overnight developments in the millions march protest. that's straight ahead.

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and we've just been talking about republican donors trying to keep the presidential primary as short as possible for their party, maybe by coalescing around just one single candidate, an establish candidate for the gop. at this point it looks like they'll have to convince jeb bush not to run or give them their full support. as we talked about earlier this morning, the former florida governor is showing increasing signs of wanting to run for president. tomorrow he hits the early

primary state of south carolina for a speech and more on that in just a moment. with the new year upon us, the window is closing fast for potential candidates to start making their move and make a decision one way or another. texas governor rick perry is among those testing the waters for another run. he even says that it's expected of him to run again in 2016. of course, the last time did not go that well for perry. he entered the race as the initial favorite and when he got in in the fall of 2011, but he stumbled often and stumbled embarrassingly once the campaign was under way. >> you can't name the third one? >> the third agency of government i would do away with the education and the -- commerce. and let's see -- i can't. the third one i can't. sorry. oops. >> now, advisors to perry insist the governor has hit the books since that 2012 bid. there's regular policy meetings on his calendar now and as you may have seen by now this week he is trying to diminish expectations when he it comes to

his intellect. >> are you smart enough to be president of the united states? >> i think the standpoint of life's experiences, running for the presidency is not an iq test. >> there have been some physical changes, as well. less country and western wear for perry and more hipster glasses, attitude changes, too. texas governor telling cnbc john harwood he is the guy that asked that debate question that caused perry to implode last time around. he was too arrogant as a candidate back in 2012. add all of this up and it's clorely time to introduce rick perry as the newest member of the field. that is our recurring look at the growing list of would-be contenders for the white house. will the changes that rick perry now making help see him in a new light. since the governor isn't mentioned until nearly the end of the article in "the times" about who the establishment really wants to run, what would republican donors have to do to convince perry to stay out? here to talk about that is casey hunt, msnbc political correspondent who spent time

inert viewing rick perry. before i go to you, i want to play a clip from your interview with rick perry. a lot of interesting stuff and one of the questions you asked him, basically, when people ask you about this, what do you tell them, rick perry, about why you're ready for 2016. >> how are you going to convince people that you are are ready to do this in 2016? >> well, i think the last two years have been a gradual movement into people taking a look at us. they've seen us. they've seen us on national television. they've seen us on the border with texas and mexico. they've seen us standing in front of medical professions with ebola. so, all of those and many other examples are another opportunity for me to give people another look at me. >> casey, are you picking that up in your reporting that republicans coming off of 2012

with all these other options for 2016 are looking at rick perry and saying, yeah, it could be different this time? >> you know, steve, i actually think so. i think that perry camp is going out of its way to try to give people access to the governor to give them an opportunity to see something beyond what they saw on that debate stage in 2012. i spoke to some of the donors and supporters who were in attendance over the past couple of weeks at dinners at the governor's mansion where governor perry sort of seemed to try to out his stump speech. and there definitely was a lot of positive reaction and not every person in that room was a previous supporter. some of them had backed to mitt romney in the past, for example. but i think it's pretty obvious that perry has a serious probability threshold that he has to get over and he's also going to have to find a new place in this field if he decides to run. he's no longer going to be the sort of powerful tea party guide to mitt romney's establishment guy. there is ted cruz now for that, a fellow texan. i think jeb bush is,

potentially, as you were discussing, a big problem for rick perry and people close to perry privately acknowledge that if bush were to get in it would significantly impact his fund-raising. fighting for the same donor base, especially in texas. a lot of oil and gas money in texas and uth industries they would be tussling over. that's what perry is going to have to do right out of the gate. prove he is a top tier fund-raiser. if bush gets in, you'll see interesting dynamics there, too. their relationship goes back decades and i talked to governor perry a little bit about his relationship with the bush family, if you want to take a listen to that. >> what's your relationship like with the bush family? >> i consider them to be one of the great families of american history. >> no animosity? >> certainly not. george h.w. bush, great patriot. an amazing public servant. so wise to choose texas a&m as

the site for his presidential library. i mean, what's not to like about george h.w. bush and barbara. what's not to like about george w. and laura. >> do you put jeb bush in that same category? >> absolutely. >> it's interesting. so, shout out to texas a&m, i guess. who doesn't like george bush sr. these days. that's true. kasie, you got to it earlier. in 2011 the role was so specific and the open spot in the republican presidential field for the conservative alternative to mitt romney and they never figured out who it was. they all took turns. gingrich had his moment and perry had his moment and it so much more complicated this time around and the other thing that strikes me with rick perry, he has been a governor since 2002. he is not going to be a governor come next year. he is not going to have that platform and all that comes with that. that's another hurdle for him. >> that particularly plays with the money. he raised about $18 million in

about 45 days in 2011, which is really a fund-raising feat. that's why everybody took him so seriously immediately coming out of the gate. but i think the question is whether or not that kind of, that came with the office and those people that were giving that money are people who kind of still wanted something from the governor of texas. or whether they are supporters who are going to stick with him both when he's not the governor and also through what we saw from that last campaign. >> all right, kasie hunt in washington, thanks for joining us this morn. she will be catching up with jeb bush tomorrow. look for that this week. >> nice to see you, steve, thanks. an update on yesterday's big protests across the country in response to the recent controversial grand jury decisions. as we mentioned, at least 25,000 taking to the streets in new york city last night. two officers were assaulted and hospitalized. the nypd saying they've made one arrest in connection to the protests. up next, two wings of the democratic party square off over who should lead the party into

2016. that debate happens right here after this howard dean is standing by. stay with us. [ hoof beats ]

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>> you know, there's a lot of talk lately about how dodd frank isn't perfect. a lot of talk comes from citigroup on how dodd frank isn't perfect. so, let me say this to anyone who is listening at citi. i agree with you. dodd frank isn't perfect. it should have broken you into pieces. >> elizabeth warren on the senate floor friday night leading the fight against a provision to weaken wall street regulation that was slip under to the vast funding bill to keep the government open. while the effort failed, it did succeed in redefining the terms of the debate. draft war nn to the 2016 presidenten race. "new york times" reporting that

the grassroots group moveon.org plans to spend $1 million to get warren into the race. running tv ads and going so far as to open field offices in iowa and new hampshire new hampshire and there's also this, on friday, a group of more than 300 obama campaign alumni released an open letter to call on warren to throw her hat into the ring, quoting from it, we believed in an unlikely candidate when no one thought -- special interests that took down our economy, and this week, another prominent progressive voice, a one-time move on.org favorite, former governor howard from new york says move on from hillary. we have msnbc and former governor howard dean, and ben wickler who's the washington director of moveon.org.

so governor dean, let me start with you, you say you're ready for hillary in the last week, you watched what elizabeth warren did, the attention she drew to this dodd-frank provision. >> what elizabeth warren just did u was great for the country, i wouldn't agree with her rhetoric, but i absolutely agree with her position, what happened yesterday was really bad for the country and the people that voted for that bill put america's financial security at risk. i think, so i'm just delighted to have elizabeth warren taking this role and this is not a choice between the lesser of two evils, i have known hillary for 20 years, she's incredibly experienced, and god knows we need a little bit of experience in washington.

>> this provision, this is part of the hillary clinton strategy, she's not taking many positions on many things. she does a lot of provisions for the banks. >> one of the nice things about hillary's situation right now, is she's not a candidate so she doesn't have to cater to the press and give a position on every issue which i would advise her to. what we learned after 2008, which was after she was a senator is that a lot of the stuff that wall street did was really bad for the country. and what was passed last night is really bad for the country, what they did essentially was allow wall street to gamble in the agricultural sector backed by taxpayers' money. so i think elizabeth warren in the race or not in the race, is good for the country, but i am steadfast in supporting hillary because i think she would make a

great president. >> so much of politics and steve it's great to be on with you and governor dean. so much about politics is about a person meeting a moment. and this is elizabeth warren's moment, so much offal politics about soaring in approximate equalit equality--wherever she goes in the country, she brings giant crowds. >> do you think that the message that elizabeth warren is carrying, she's obviously very good at promoting that message, about communicating that message in public u when you look at hillary clinton, and you say on this issue, this issue and this issue, there are clear differences there, hillary clinton has the wrong position on these issues, are these

issues like that for you. >> moveon members have enormous respect for hillary clinton, the thing about elizabeth warren is -- people are tired of a system where wall street calls the shots. when you hear elizabeth warren on the stump, she calls for -- if you pull expending social security, it pulls in deep red. that's a message that can win the general. >> do you think hillary clinton would let the banks call the shots? >> i welcome senator clinton laying out an agenda to tackle wall street, to tackle the difference between money and politics, to join elizabeth warren and she people who republican party stands for.

>> there's a video that went viral several years ago that launched her political career, she sort of describes the social safety net, the contract, those sorts of things, she is such a great spokeswoman for progressive ideals and progressive attitudes, did you look at hillary clinton and say she's capable of making that kind of case to the american people? >> first of all, i appreciate you trying to pick a fight between ben and i, and i happen to know ben, and he's one of the smartest people in the country. >> do i think that -- and also i have great sympathy because elizabeth warren represents the democratic wing of the democratic party. what do i see in hillary? i do see -- the next president

has to deal with income inequality or the fairness issue, and the next president is going to have to do things to shore up americans fisal call position, shoring up americans' fiscal position does not allow the banks to gamble with our money. do i think that hillary is going to come out with positions that don't favor giving the banks more money at our expense? i do think she's going to -- assuming she runs, i think you're going to expect to see a thoughtful, reasonably moderate position financially, which is fiscally curve conservative. >> if and when she decides to run. we will see what mon moveon has

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♪ nationwide is on your side ♪ mmm mmm mmm mm mmm mm mmmmmm this morning my question, what does the panama canal have to do with childhood asthma in new jersey? and the family that is still at risk of separation despite executive action on immigration. plus reflecting on a day of protests. but first, what our favorite toys tell us about who we are. good morning, i'm melissa harris-perry, it is the hole i day season and today i thought it might be useful to pause and talk about something that is on the minds of many, toys. remember the toy crazes of