yet read the e-mails. the biggest sign yet that jeb bush will make a bid for the white house. this is "way too early." hey there everybody. good morning. i'm thomas roberts. it is monday, december 15th. welcome to "way too early." hope you had a fantastic weekend. a lot of developing news overnight, and we begin with breaking news this morning out of australia. much of sydney is still at a stand still at this point where right now nearly 12 hours after a gunman entered a chocolate store in the city's central business district, dozens of people were inside and they were held captive. australian prime minister tony abbott says the gunman is, quote, claiming political motivation. the prime minister has not declared this incident to be an act of terrorism. we know a jihadist flag, black with arabic writing there, see the white writing at the top, was displayed in the window where the hostages with being

held. several local media outlets report they have been contacted by the hostages who claim the gunman had two different demands, those demands being an isis flag and a meeting with the prime minister, tony abbott. >> australia is a peaceful, open, and generous society. nothing should ever change that. and that's why i would urge australians today to go about their business as usual. >> so five hostages escaped so far. and you can see different ones running out right here. officials believe fewer than 30 people are still being held captive inside that cafe. at this point, nbc news is still working to get more details, but we do have an nbc news foreign correspondent ayman mohyeldin to talk about this. this is a big deal for sydney. they are typically not stricken with this type of situation.

and so explain what this means as we're trying to look at this on a larger level internationally. i know the president was briefed on this right away. >> yeah, well, as you were saying, there is still a lot we don't know particularly the motivations of this individual who is behind it. as you were saying, police believe they have identified the individual. in fact, local australian news channels are reporting that some of the hostages inside have actually managed to reach some local media stations, have made some of those demands known. it is very significant because it is happening in a major country, but more importantly it highlights the fear that a lot of western countries had for some time now about these so-called lone wolf type of attacks where somebody who could be a sympathizer or supporter could do something like this and paralyze a major city. they shut down a bill bulk of this major australian city. >> somebody acting on their own accord and trying to get the attention of, say, jihadists or islamic group elsewhere in the

world, and using as we see there, there is the flag, using their motivations as their own individual motivations in a situation like this. >> yeah. i mean, you now have the world's media attention focused on this city, this individual has a political platform. every message coming out of there will be scrutinized. he wants to speak to the prime minister. again, let's also put in a little bit of context and take a step back. we don't anything about this individual, if he's mentally deranged or an individual who belongs to an organization or is working on behalf of an organization. it does highlight this growing concern where one individual can create the kind of havoc we're seeing on a major city like sydney. >> as we look at where australia works with the united states, and works with other partners in terms of going after isis and isil now within iraq and surrounding areas, they become a vulnerable target because they have been committing troops. >> they have been committing

troops. they have been a long close ally of the united states in previous military combats in iraq and elsewhere. they're very close u.s. allies. more importantly, one of the major concerns for the australian government is they had about 100 or so fighters go join isis, fight on behalf of isis inside iraq and syria, and as we have seen in this country in western europe, there is that concern that these individuals will get battle tested on the battlefield and come back with that knowledge into their home countries and create this kind of disruption, carry out these types of attacks. >> the big distinction to point out when it comes to the signage, the flag that they were displaying from inside the chocolate shop, that has to do, there it is, not directly with isis or isil, correct? that's not their distinct flag. >> it is not their distinct flag. that is a flag that has been seen in past among various militant groups in several battlefields. the bottom line is it is a flag associated with militancy in some parts of both afghanistan and iraq and syria. >> so that's the two

distinctions we want to point out here as the gunman made contact using the hostages to reach out to media outlets saying what he wants is the proper isis flag and a meeting with tony abbott. we don't know if any of those demands have been made. we have seen the escape of certain hostages inside this chocolate shop. we don't know why which chocolate shop would be a target or a market area in the central area of sydney. but we don't know what would make this area more prime than any other. >> that's right. you can look at it from the strategic value of it. it is very close to the sydney opera house, close to parliament building or new south wales parliament building, close to the financial district or several financial buildings including the reserve bank. it has what we call a high symbolic value. the coffee shop itself may not be of significance, but the location of it in a place like sydney has a tremendous amount of significance because of the fact that a lot of media organizations are nearby as we

are now responding to it, a lot of international media is descending on sydney to follow the situation. this strategic and symbolic value of that city is much more greater than the specific coffee shop. then also, it also highlights the fact that it is just an everyday kind of place. these are people going to work, a small coffee shop, low security, but the fact that this -- an incident like this raises fears across major capitals. >> you talk about that, the major fears and also the test that is being leveled against the sydney police and the forces that are being enacted here, we see that the -- not only the people of australia being tested but their military operations and police operations to respond to a hostage situation like this, especially if it is going to be deemed more of some type of terrorist, you know -- terrorist operation or with terrorist intentions. so that is a bigger difference as we look to get more details

on this moving forward. because you do point out, this could be someone that has a background with mental instability, and some other issues that they're just trying to utilize this for media attention. >> the police in australia are, you know, first world police capabilities, they have an amazing counterterrorism operation. their military is first rate. they're going to handle this with extreme diligence, no doubt. they're also taking note of the fact that in an open society, the world is watching how they respond and they're going to be scrutinizing everything that australian police do in a situation like this. you mentioned the five individuals that were released or escaped and, again, they're going to be speaking to the individuals to try to get as much intelligence about the situation inside, what is the armed man armed with and this is now dragged on for close to 12 hours in australia. at some point, this person inside is going to get tired and if he's alone, that may be a window of opportunity for the police. but they're going to be speaking to the individuals to gather as

much insight intelligence about what is going on inside the coffee shop now. >> sydney's police commissioner spoke to the media a short time ago and had this to say. >> there is much work to be done and much more for us to do over the coming hours, i'm sure. but, again, for those that have loved ones that may be caught up in this, for those that may be in that particular building, rest assured we are doing all we can to set you free. we will be looking after your safety as our number one priority. >> so obviously trying to reassure those that are involved and certainly for the family members that have anybody that is involved in this situation, however it was interesting how tony abbott, the prime minister encouraged those in and around sydney to try and go on with their daily lives as they start a new business week. here it is monday morning, encouraging people to go around with their daily business. >> that's going to be a bit of a harder sell. no doubt there womill be an element of resilience among the local population. but australians are waking up to

a big part of their downtown area in sydney now declared an exclusion zone. some areas are shut off. some of the local public transportation in that area has been suspended, all of it making absolute sense. but it will have the residual effect that there will be a fear element, no matter how resilient they are, no matter how much they go on, when they wake up to these types of images and the possibility that terror has struck home, it willing an element of fear for some people. >> and what that means for australia and their own counterterrorism measures, how they take that into account and what this means for them going forward in terms of vulnerabilities. >> well, they have known about this threat now for are some time. they have been monitoring individuals, not just australia, but as well new zealand had a similar problem. and even the magnetic appeal of isis and terrorism has drawn people from as far away places as australia. this has been on the radar for australian officials for some time. i think the immediate concern

for officials is whether or not this individual is acting alone or whether or not he was part of a cell or others that may also still be out there in sydney. i can assure you once they identified this individual they're going to be combing through his background any travel, any recent travel, any affiliations or associations, any known contacts in the city or elsewhere in the country that can be points of interest for the authorities. >> and, again, these are gripping images as we're seeing again, breaking news there has been a hostage situation in sydney where a lone gunman, we believe it to be a lone gunman, working on his own accord, taking over a chocolate shop there in martin place. that is an area popular with sydney business shoppers. this is a chocolate shop, roughly about 30 people inside. when the gunman walked in, holding up an islamic flag, asking for two demands which being one, an isis flag and second, a meeting with the prime minister, tony abbott. we don't have confirmation on any of those two demands being

met, but we know tony abbott made statements to the media. >> up with other point that isis itself called for attacks inside australia. they have made appeals for sympathizers and supporters of the group to carry out attacks. as far back as a month or so ago. it is a concern for officials. we also know isis has specifically called for attacks inside australia. so they're going to be looking at that connection as well. >> this is the video we know roughly five people have been freed. we don't know how their escape or their negotiation or freedom has been worked out. but you can see them running out the side there to the armed members of the police on the side of the building there. but we're going to keep our eye on this. we'll ask you to stick around. we'll be back with much more here on msnbc after this.

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ago from 7 news australia. they were showing the images of at least three hostages that were taken inside a chocolate shop there in martin place in sydney being released from the inside of that shop there, with at least one gunman inside. the gunman has been known to hold up using the hostages to hold it up, a flag with a jihadist message on it. two of his demands have been, one, to have an isil flag delivered. and also to have a meeting with the australian prime minister, tony abbott. and we're still waiting on confirmation of exactly how many people are inside, still being held captive there. the earlier original reports were roughly around 30 people, this has been going on now for over 12 hours. again, this is taking place in sydney and there is only confirmation of one gunman inside. we understand there are political motivations here, but we don't know much more about

that and whether or not he's working with anyone else. nbc news foreign correspondent ayman mohyeldin is on set with me now. that's a big calculation on whether this is someone working alone or someone working in some type of cell or larger ring and what that means to the city of sydney and what that means generally going forward. >> yeah. absolutely. and you're also talking about the affiliations the individual may have, he wants an isis flag. right now, the flag he's waving, it is essentially a black flag used by several armed militant groups over several years, different conflict zones. it doesn't have any particular political message. in arabic, it is just a religious saying, a proclamation used by muslims around the world. it is also the same proclamation you see on several flags including the saudi arabian flag, the flag that isis has. it is not the same type of flag. it is hard to identify just from what we have seen today any kind of affiliation, particularly for this individual. and i think that's going to be the first step for the police is

to try to identify who he is, who he's working with, and whether or not he acted alone in carrying out this attack. >> from the sensibilities of the australian government, when did their alert become more heightened to the awareness that they could be a soft target for what is taking place internationally and with isil and knowing there are certain members of their own country interested in going to align themselves with that organization. >> i think it began this summer when isis began putting out propaganda videos and we started to see how much of a prominent role foreigners were playing in these videos. a lot of the videos that came out from isis earlier this summer showcased people from either southeast asia, the philippines, indonesia, thailand, elsewhere, and other individuals that certainly is going to be a major cause of concern for australian security officials who monitor that situation. but when we started seeing some of the propaganda videos come out that featured europeans, that featured others, i think that's when a lot of these

authorities and intelligence authorities began to take note. certainly they're monitoring travel movements or travel patterns. you start seeing individuals faces, you can hear from their accents, some of them identified themselves, they would hold up passports to show they had come from abroad. i think that's when it took on a whole new level for several authorities. >> the relationship that we have with our australian counterparts, when it comes to military action and coordination, we have a unified front. they are a partner of ours. >> they are. as close of an ally as you can possibly have. australia has been side by side with the u.s. on several combat zones. australia helps in patrolling some waters in southeast asia with the navy. and so certainly they have a robust military presence in some international conflicts we have seen from iraq throughout the 2003 war and beyond. now we're seeing them, they have been over the course of the last several months members of the coalition against isis. there is no doubt there is a close working relationship

culturally from a political point of view, and certainly from a security point of view. >> so when we go back to the breaking news, we want to recap for you right now, we're watching and continuing to watch and have been for almost 13 hours now, out of sydney, australia, is this lone gunman, believed to be a lone gunman who entered a chocolate shop there in martin place in downtown sydney, taking at least 30 people hostage, some five have been released over the last 30 minutes to an hour. and we had video of those people rushing out of a side door of the building to the waiting arms of the armed police officers on the side there. there you can see one young lady rushing into the arms of the waiting officers. but we still don't know exactly the motivations behind what this is about, and the demands that have been made, two things, an isil flag to be delivered to this chocolate shop, and a meeting with the prime minister tony abbott. again, we had the police commissioner of sydney speaking out to the media about this. and tony abbott speaking out to

people in and around the sydney area, talking about going about your business as normal today, trying to start your monday on a regular footing. but i think that's going to be very hard even for a lot of people to do. this is not the normal thing and in sydney they're not stricken with this type of activity. and this is a big shock. this is a new normal for them. >> it is. i think australia is not immune to obviously criminal acts of big major city. the political ramifications because of the background is going to be a major cause of concern, not because this could be a way going forward, but it does highlight the vulnerabilities of countries in which, you know, in situations like australia, people are going to work early monday morning. again, you can't overemphasize we still don't know what the political motivations of this individual are and that can make the difference in terms of how quickly people respond to it in the sense that if this individual turns out to be mentally deranged, someone with

mental problems or acting alone, i think that attitude of the public may be different. if they find out he is associated and is bringing some kind of serious political connections with this to foreign terrorist groups, i think it will also have serious ramifications. >> let's go over this, so we can point out to everybody some context over the year of what australia has been watching and monitoring as a country in terms of a terror threat, at least that has gotten us to this point. starting in the summer, in july, late summer, the suicide bomber, an australian, behind the iraq blast and then we look at what australia did with new legislation aimed at preventing people from going to fight with islamic groups announced. you say that was a big deal for those in new zealand and australia who were attracted to throw their support behind isis. >> yeah. and isis, you know, isis makes its propaganda video in english for a reason. they want to draw these people. they have a certain magnetic appeal to them. and they play on all kinds of sentiments, perhaps religious, and they also identify individuals with all kinds of

backgrounds and we have seen it in this country. some people want to leave their homes, the comfort of their homes, middle class people, who want to just get -- >> not just aimed at young men either too. aimed at young women. >> the notion also that it tries to feed off of poor individuals, that's not the case. we have seen people, again, with very moderate middle class backgrounds going to join the fight. and, again, we don't know who this individual is. but as you were saying right there in the australian timeline this is something on australia's radar for the past several months. they have been dealing with terrorism for a while. this particular issue has been on the radar since the summer. >> we see the shift in september there with australia raising their terror threat level from medium to high. and the middle of the month with the prime minister tony abbott committing the 600 troops to fight in unison with the u.s. and other forces against the islamic states. and then we have what australia calls on the september the 18th, hearing out what it called the biggest counterterrorism raid. the coordination that the u.s.

has tried to count on with our allies, allied countries in fighting isis, that's been big for president obama to want to help carry the load. but what do you think that means going forward now when we know that tony abbott will be reaching out to president obama and saying that there may be strain, this may put a strain on what that commitment means going forward because of this. >> i think in the situation like this, it actually probably doubles their resolve. in a situation where australia becomes a possible targ fit this is proved to be isis related that this individual will have somehow made australia say we need to continue our fight against isis. we need to double our efforts not only on the battlefields in iraq and syria, but find out what is happening at home, why are people leaving to join the fight. and more importantly as we saw what the next levels of cooperation might be. there is a tremendous amount of intelligence sharing taking place between the united states, western countries and australia.

arab countries are monitoring the situation because it is a major threat to them as well. in a situation like this, i think it will only redouble -- >> great point to point out. might strengthen their resolve to want to stay committed to what they see to make sure that this type of action is proven that they're not going to stand for this, that they, as i said, tony abbott, telling people to go on with their daily business today. ayman, it has been confirmed that nbc news has confirmed that federal police have taken over on the ground and are dealing with the situation in belgium. let's take these picture downs real quickly so we don't confuse our viewers now. watching the situation in belgium where federal police are on the ground in dealing with the situation where they believe that four armed men have gone into an apartment building and taken hostages there. again, four armed men entering an apartment building in the western city of gent. police blocked off a wide area in and around this apartment

building for right now. they say it was unclear certainly what the intention was. but nbc news has confirmed that federal police have taken over on the ground there in dealing with the situation. locals are being asked to stay indoors as the situation is unclear. so, we give this to everybody with the caveat that we do not know if any of this is related. certainly could be just a coincidence at this point, but interesting that it is happening in this time frame. >> and i think also because of the sensitivity of the nature, i think authorities are not going to take any chances. we have absolutely no reason to believe they are connected, but authorities in belgium have been dealing with, again, very similar issues to what we are seeing in australia in the sense that they had foreign fighters go and join isis. we don't know if this is terrorism related. but given the nature of what we're waking up to this morning, i can assure you a lot of security agency around the world will be on high alert looking for copycat types of attacks or find out if there was any kind

of connection. >> over the years, though, belgium has been definitely more of an area of interest, or at least where we have seen those be more interested in committing to -- >> absolutely. there is a history to this particularly for the reason that a lot of both belgium, france, some countries had had very high numbers of muslim populations as immigrants, particularly from north africa. a lot of these individuals are sometimes disenfranchised in these countries. they become tremendous pools of people to be recruited for the fight. we have seen that from france. europe had now several hundred if not thousand fighters join isis and, again, premature to say anything that is happening on belgium is connected. but surveying and putting in the proper context, we have seen people from the united kingdom, france, belgium and elsewhere go join that fight. so i think that what we're concerned about and what officials are going to be concerned about is whether or not these communities of disenfranchised people, sometimes immigrants, are being

exploited for isis and used to come back and carry out attacks in their own countries. >> four men entered an apartment building in the western city of ghent. police are on that situation now. and the 14-hour standoff taking place now in sydney, australia. 30 people being held hostage inside a chocolate shop with five people that have been released. our thanks to ayman mohyeldin. that will do it for "way too early." thanks to you. coming up on "morning joe," much more on the breaking news out of australia and belgium, but back to the breaking news in sydney where we have seen the release of certain hostages. we'll get more information on what is taking place there and update you on the latest on that situation right after this break.

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>> our only goal tonight and for as long as this takes is to get those people that are currently caught in that building out of their safely. that remains our number one priority and nothing will change. >> there's breaking news this morning out of australia. much of sidney at a standstill right now. nearly 13 hours after a gunman entered a chocolate store in the city's central business district where dozens of people were inside. australia prime minister tony abbott says the gunman is claiming political motivation. the prime minister has not declared the inciden