gunfire erupted in the past 40 minutes. the gunfire erupted after a door opened and a number of hostages ran out with their hands up reportedly about a half dozen hostages fleeing toward the army of security forces there at the scene. and then there was a sudden burst of stun grenades fired followed by a burst of gunfire. there have been a number of people brought on stretchers. unconfirmed reports say two people were killed. nbc news has confirmed the suspected gunman is a man sheikh haron. he has his own website and long troubled history with police. he's known to local police for his extremist views. early on in the siege he forced two of his hostages to hold up a black islamic flag. a flag often used by terrorist

groups. ayman mohyeldin joins me now. thank you very much for being with me as we've been following this throughout the morning. a turning point here ai pivotal moech moment here. he moved to australia in the 1990s currently charged as an accessory to the murder of his ex-wife. what else do we know from him? >> the first question is going to be for authorities is to try to disearn what the motivation of this was. you mentioned he has a criminal past. he's an individual known to the authorities, but does that mean his act today was politically motivated. i think that's going to be the starting point of departure for authorities. in addition to that. they're going to try to determine whether or not he had any accomplices, whether or not he had any anybody that help d

facilitated this. he was apparently on bail according to some local media reports. all of these will factor in the coming hours. >> and how can we put into play this the fact in the 17 hours he would force the hostages to hold up these -- stand in the window and hold the black taflag. in some cases a woman for two hours. reading there is no god but allah and mohamed is god. equivalent to the lord's prayer in christianity. what is his intention? >> it's commonly used by militant groups in many conflict zones in identificatiafghanista syria. it's more of a symbol. it doesn't have any political message but the sill bosymbolis of it. according to what we're hearing from some of the local reports some of the political demands

and that's going to be the more important indicators. some of the talks taking place and the information that may have been gleaned from the hostages draft have now been released. i think that's going to give a more accurate picture of the political motivation and not he may have been shrouding himself in the political cover for a purely criminal act. >> especially given his demands of the isis flag and to speak with prime minister of australia. let's talk about this as far as responsibility and motivation. it's looking like a lone wolf situation. some may say it's one guy. it's not a group but at the same time you have to consider here isis and their call their international call for action by lone wolves. in essence, that could be the reason to be alarmed here as far as isis calling for these kinds of actions. >> there's no doubt you have to be alarmed regardless of what the individual's motivation was. what we're seeing is the new pattern of attacks. these attacks maybe individuals

who are supporters, which means they're actively engaged in isis or terrorist organizations or sympathizers. people who want to rise to the global media tension by carrying out this type of attack. and either way isis is not necessarily coordinating terrorist organizations are not necessarily coordinating these attacks. what they're doing is calling for people to carry them out and for whatever the reason. for whatever motivation they may heed the calls. that is so disruptive to authorities because they have to treat each in the same way. >> at with a cottawa, canada co mind. let's dip into our coverage news 7 in australia. >> obviously of hope we might be able to talk him out of there. he wasn't as politically possessed of the isis message. he's just a common everyday

lunatic. unfortunately, it wasn't to be. and we see the results tonight. >> do you think maybe he tried to hang the whole thing on the banner but it was more just a personal grievances? >> i think so. i think that was -- we're speculating. massive speculating here from first breeding of the situation that's my impression, yes. >> for anybody that just tuned in and surprised to see what is going on. can we recap what has been going on over the last hour and a half or so. it has been the traumatic end to the day's drama. we'll come off and i'll step out of the way. we'll show you what is going on now. very quiet scene. the police bomb squad has moved in. they have got officers and ro t robots basically sweeping this building looking for any potential devices that might have been left behind by the

gunman. look, when you see the building like that it gives you a bit of a clearer or chance for a clearer explanation of what went down. take your mind back about one hour to 2:00 and we saw over the windows a lot of movement of the hostages from one side of the cay they to the other. the gunman was corralling them, shuffling them back and forth. he was concerned. he didn't know what was going on. as he moved they left. he was pushing the camera left a group of five or seven were over on the right-hand side. he turned the lights out in the cafe about 8:00 p.m. this evening. >> a little bit of coverage there in sydney, australia from 7 news. that across the street from the area where the siege took place. i want to bring in nbc sara james. she joins us live in sydney,

australia. thank you for being with us. tell us more about what the latest is now this come to an end. what happened to the gunman? >> well, it ended in a dramatic fashion, francis. just a short time ago and what happened was that first there were a number of hostages who fled. it was a dramatic moment where another six people caped. they had hair hand in the area and they ran at the crouch to get out of the building and away. it was promising, of course, to see more people uninjured. a short time later, a matter of minute the later we heard the explosive crack of what sounded like stun grenades. that was followed by not one but two bursts separated by two minutes. quite staccato gunfire. it sounded like things were far more serious. you could smell the smoke in our

direction. we're about 200 yarpds from the cafe. the site of the siege since 10:00 this morning. they were held all day forced to put their hands up against the window holding up a islamic banner. regarding the gunman, we're not sure of the status. we've been trying to find it out. we know he's a self-styled shei who has a long list i ahistory intersections with the law. most recently, we're told he was on bail and this was for the most serious of crimes for being an accessory to murder. and out on bail. the fact of the matter is, this is the man who police believe was the gunman who was there in that cafe and his fate tonight is unknown. four stretchers came out of that cave th cafe and cpr was being performed on some of the people. there was one woman having cpr

performed on her. we saw the ambulances race in the direction and some peeled off again. the hostage situation is over. the police are going through calmly and methodically now and working through that area to check for anything else that might remain. this drama that began just before 10:00 in the morning local time here in the heart of the financial, political, and media center of sydney. just about a five minute stroll from the sydney opera house. >> certainly pivotal moments happening in the 16th hour there. people as they wake up find out this has come to an end. of course, it remains to be seen what happened to the gunman. what happened to the other hostages there. sara james, thank you very much. to get more perspective on this let's bring in new york times national security and terrorism correspondent eric schmidt and former fbi chief hostage negotiator who is an

msnbc contributor. you've been watching it since this morning. i'm curious to hear your perspective. clint, how do you think the negotiations and the negotiators made the decision that police should go in. >> this is a joint decision. one question is whether the negotiators actually had a chance to talk to him or whether like many hostage takers he was using the hostages as intermediaries. he wouldn't talk to the negotiators specifically. that is usually a bad sign if you can't get the shooter on the phone. number two, there's information coming in, the background we know about this guy's background and some of the horrific crimes he's committed. people in the community he's known. we may have intelligence from the building. in essence, law enforcement may have been able to snake in some type of camera or listening device that would tell them if the threat level to the hostages was going up or not.

one report suggests that when the hostages were being moved from point a to point b inside of the coffee house, that they made a break as we're told and that the subject allegedly fired a shot. when that happens, for most tactical team, that's the time they execute their emergency assault plan. that says shots are fired. if we don't get in there we're going to lose hostages. go in and you realize when you go in, of course, you use flashbangs to disorient the shooter as you go in. but he's shooting. you may be shooting clouds of smoke, flashbangs, hostaging are running left and right and crawling around. a highly stressed environment. in situations like that, it's easily easy for the hostages to get caught between the hostage taker and the tactical team and maybe get hit in a cross fire. >> the anxiety there as far as that situation over but certainly not the case. we don't know the fate of the

gunman or the hostages involved. let's talk about this as far as background here. we don't officially know the gunman's motive. we know there's growing concern in australia for months about the threat from islamic state militants. we want to run the time line down for you. officials blamed an australian there. and in september 18th australia conducts the biggest counter terrorism raid. linked to an alleged plot by australians to kill a random member of the public. in october australia approves air strikes again the islamic state. 11 days ago the countries banned citizens to traveling to syria. and the hostage situation that

began yesterday. so if we can bring in eric here. is there a fear of copy cat acts at this point? you know, knowing that australia has been part of the u.s. led coalition. should they be watching out for something like this to happen again? >> certainly this has been a concern for the nations contributing to the fight against isis in iraq and syria. there's been some 70 australians believed to have travel to the region to fight there. all the countries are expressing concerns you might have individuals who acted out at the urging of isis. isis in a website proclamation in september urged the followers whenever they may be, including in australia to lash out just as this individual did today. so whether he's actually connected to isis or not we may learn. but certainly by displaying the banner, by solidarity that flies with isis he grabs world

attention. >> we'll be waiting to hear more about the gunman and his votives. thank you so much for being with us this morning. we're continuing to follow the breaking news out of sydney australia. president obama is being updated on the situation in offering any assistance needed. we'll have live report from the white house next here on "newsnation."

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dramatic video from a short time ago of police in sydney, australia moving in on the hostage situation at the lindt chocolate cafe.

the siege that lasted more than 17 hours is over. there are unconfirmed reports of two people dead. we're awaiting more details from police on the scene. we're learning more about the suspected gunman. nbc news confirmed him as haron known by sheikh haron. white house staffers have been briefed and them briefing president obama about the situation as well. nbc white house correspondent chris jansing joins me now. and former senior british officer with ten combat tours of duty joining me also. thank you for being with me, along with ayman mohyeldin. chris, let's start with you. what more do we know about how the administration is handling the chris? >> reporter: the president was briefed from the beginning about getting regular updates on this. we know that there has been no indication that the terror threat level here would be raised. would require a specific

credible threat to the u.s. homeland. but obviously that is something that the white house takes part in. jay johnson is scheduled to speak on a different topic later today. we'll see if we hear any comments about this. homeland security takes the lead in consultation with intelligence agencies, the fbi, and the white house. the president is going to be heading to new jersey to a joint base there to speak to some military later today. we'll see if he has any comments to make about this, francis. >> all right. we were talking about the background here as an iranian refugee. how does that come into play here? >> yeah, i think there's an interesting die ma'ynamic here. we have to let the situation play out. the broader picture of what isis is. isis preaches a extreme version

of a subset of the sunni sec. when you look at iran, iran is shia dominated. it has the proxy force of hezbollah, south lebanon. we know hezbollah has been operating in syria fighting alongside assad's forces against militant jihadists of the sunni sect. so there is only one real sunni extremist organization in iran. the cia and the fbi know about this organization, but it will be interesting to see how this plays out in terms of what this chap's motives were. what his motives were in terms of why he's decided to sympathize with what is effectively a sunni militant group yet he's from iran. >> we have to consider here his background. the criminal background there. ayman, you were talking about this, too. his political motives may be shielding him from his history there and the numerous charges.

one, accessory of murder to his wife he's facing. >> right. i think that's going to be a point of major investigation for the authorities. i do believe when you look at the individual like this who is want as a suspect in the killing of his ex-wife, known to authorities, out on bail, there is the first inclination to think that he is obviously -- obviously this is criminal but i'm talking more from the perspective of nonpolitically motivated attack. what makes it unique in this case, he's a person who has been politically active. he's outspoken, he's critical. there's videos of him giving sermons and known to be harassing the spouses of soldiers who have fight and died in afghanistan. in is not an individual who is completely void of any political context. he's politically connected to what is happening on the ground but at the same time we have to wait to see where the dust settles on this particular incident and whether there is just an outburst.

>> how can we factor that as far as australia supporting the united states in the fight against isis? >> we can go back to 1998. 1998 a police station in sydney had a drive by shooting and two australian-lebanese muslims were arrested for that. in 2005, there were jihadist cells uncovered -- the biggest we saw in september which arrested nine men that was in sydney. there's also riots. there's been sectarian violence going on in australia since 2000 through the forms of gang rapes in groups from muslims against christians, and then in the form of huge riot on one of the suburbs near the beaches of sydney, which was predicated on the back of sectarian hatred and

violence. it's not something that is new. >> another new problem, you talk about isis as a group and you talk individually. the lone wolf attacks and the threat of that becoming more prevalent and now we're seeing in the stage there in australia. how is it investigators can keep a pulse on these lone wolves? what do you watch? when do you know it's one person going on a political rant versus somebody who can be a threat and makes it difficult to keep a pulse on them. >> there's two approaches. one, the approach taking place far away and the approach at home. at home has to deal with reaching out to communities potential groundswells for recruitment. when you go to the communities you reach out to them. bring them into the fold and make them part of the political process. don't let people become disenfranchised. abroad there has to be hard look

at the policies that the countries engaged in that allow the ideology to continue to exist. what i mean by the countries countries in the region, countries abroad, that are allowing extremist ideology. you will not defeat an ideology with bombs or missiles or tanks. the key is to train that swamp of the ideology and do it requires a huge system of reformation in the middle east. you have to push education and reform. we're not seeing those yet take place. >> and you have to consider the fact that isis with their propaganda they've been sophisticated. >> and use propaganda to target the west. >> something more to watch. ayman, you're staying with me. mikey, thank you for your perspective this morning. we have more on the breaking news. here is a look how newspapers around the world are covering the stories. usa "today" writes the sydney siege: police don't know gunman's motivation. the "wall street journal" has

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near are half past the hour. it's breaking news we've been following all morning long. the hose tang standoff that began in sydney, central ya almost 17 hours ago ended in dramatic fashion. ending with gunfire that erupted in the past 50 minutes. there are unconfirmed reports that two people are dead. we are still awaited details from the scene and also we do not know the fate of the gunman. nbc news has confirmed his identity the man known as sheikh

haron. he's known for the extremist views and also charges, in fact, accessory of murder to his wife. a name they have been knowing and followed. we want to bring in some information here. our affiliate channel 7 was just outside saint vincent's hospital. we want to play a bit what the reporter had to said. let's listen. >> in the last half hour, there has been one ambulance arrived here to vincent's hospital which is the largest trauma unit. the male was there, conscious, the sigh rons weren't on. he was assisted out by a paramedic. we haven't been able to confirm it was one of the hostages involved in the siege. we understand that the timing it does matter. we have gathered outside here the hospital. there's been another three hospitals across sydney on standby waiting for patients.

they've been on standby since the siege unfolded early yesterday morning and extra staff have been called in. they've been trained for this. we are being assured by the health services they have the capacity to dahl the injured and that is exactly what they're ready to do this morning. >> do we know if the other hospitals have received any of the injured? >> look, we understand that prince alfred hospital just not far from martin place, a little bit further away from the hospital -- we understand a female has been taken there. we haven't been able to confirm her condition or if she was involved in the hostage situation. >> we know three people have been seriously injured. what you're saying, ashley, it looks like the person who arrived there so far isn't one of the seriously injured people.

>> >> exactly. and that was a relief on the journalists and cameramen's faces when we were waiting for the ambulance to come in and given the sirens weren't on. we were thinking the worst but we could see the patient in the back of the ambulance. he was conscious and he was being attended to by paramedic in the back with him. and it was all very calm when they unloaded him here. just about half an hour ago. >> by the way, he was dressed. he was more likely to be a hostage than one of the officers? >> look, i didn't get the best view of him. i could see his face and he was conscious and he didn't seem to be, you know, overly hurt or harmed. as i said he was conscious. i couldn't get a good look of what he was wearing. it is dark here, but we do believe that he was one of the people involved in the siege. we're also hearing that a police officer was injured. we haven't been able to confirm

on the ambulance. right now we understand one police officer may have suffered a pellet wound to the face. >> we saw somebody being dragged out by the officers and it was perhaps one of their own. the person was dragged out so quickly after they went in that would add up to one of the officers being injured. obviously, we wait for the other hospitals to let us know. reporters at the other hospitals to let us know if any more of the injured have been ferried there. it's been a dramatic evening and you'll be on the alert for anybody brought into the hospital for treatment. >> that is right. and slowly the media and onlookers are gathering here. we have known since this siege unfolded these would have been one of the hospitals that injured patients get taken to. it's about 2 1/2 kilometers from martin place. as i said extra staff have been

brought on to be trained for this kind of, you know, response they say they're prepared. >> reporting from 7 news in sydney describing a male being brought in by an ambulance. the reporter describing that male as awake, conscious, no sirens on the ambulance there. not too much urgency in bringing him in. the uncertainty from the three other victims brought to other area hospitals one possibly a police officer. sara james describing one woman on a stretcher where they were performing cpr on her as we await confirmed news about the other victims in the siege now that it's over. importantly, the fate of the gunman. we'll continue to follow the breaking news. i'll talk with the reporter in sydney who has been on the scene for hours. first, here is how a witness described the chaos in the initial moments.

>> they were clearing the channel 7 news building, and then we were put on lock down. we couldn't go out. we couldn't go to the public toilets down stairs. we got took out. now we just got literally shipped out in single file really fast.

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hostages were being seen taken out on stretchers and loaded into ambulance. joining me now by phone from sydney is a contributor to the daily beast who has been on the ground at the scene since almost the very beginning. also jim kavanaugh, former hostage negotiator and msnbc analyst. thank you for being with me. >> courtney, what are you hearing about how this went down? >> caller: you know, obviously the situation has escalated here in the last hour. police entered the building at about 2:30 this morning. most people have gone home. it's stul unclear if it was an operation or something unfolded inside and authorities were forced to act. paramedics were on the scene.

police are -- they cannot confirm that two people died. all they are confirming that it's over. >> why do you think police moved in at that exact time? >> it could have been some dynamic inside, you know, not from police action caused some people to escape. some of the hostages mighted have tried to do something to the gunman or the gunman could have been separating crowds of hostagings wanting to round them up. maybe he was going to harm them or something. or some discovery of police movement. we don't know that. we know that from your reporting and having the australian reporters on that they did engage in gunfire with the

hostage taker. we know one police officer took a pellet to the face. the police officer has a bullet proof vest will protect them pretty good. you can see on the video at least three bursts of police gunfire as they enter. they are engage d with the gunman. he's shooting back. an officer injured. that's happening in the brief few seconds. >> what could lead up knowing it happened in the 17th hour at 3:00 a.m. there's the advantage of all this time in the middle of the night, the fatigue that happened by the hostage taker and the hostages, in essence. what would be that pivotal moment where they say these negotiations have broken down. let's go in. >> right. the onscene commander is the person making the commander is getting information from the chief negotiator, intelligence leader, who sit at the table in front of him. he's getting all of that

information and he's across the street somewhere and he's making that minute-by-minute decision. it if it was an emergency assault and people caped and the dynamics were challenging the on scene commander would order them to move forward. that's where they go in, the flashbangs deployed, they engage the gunman and try to stop him from killing the hostages. a number of things can trigger that assault. the escape of some, his intejs -- intention to harm. >> this is a mission if the guy was prepared to die. we thank you for your perspective there. courtney in sydney, australia, and jim kavanaugh. much more coverage of the breaking news from sydney that's next. i'll talk live about the suspect and more on his criminal background. well another great thing about all this walking i've been doing is that it's given me time to reflect on some of life's biggest questions. like, if you could save hundreds on car insurance by making one simple call,

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australia as many there in the country's largest city and the country are waking up to find out that the 17 hour siege, the hostage standoff is now over with. some people heard -- we're hearing reports that the fate of the gunman is unknown. i want to bring you up to date now and go back to sydney and sean berry has the latest on the police activity happening right now. >> reporter: fire brigade officers are on standby. they could be needed because police are currently going through the backpack that the gunman had with him throughout the siege. there were certain threats made it contained explosives. police are currently going through the man's backpack. he's no longer with them. we understand he is one of those who have been killed here tonight. they're on standing by waiting for that are to happen. there are a number of -- there

no explosives elsewhere. they were one of the threats this man had. he a gun and a bag that he said had explosives inside of it. those two things kept the hostages in there for such a long time, and kept police at bay when the threat of explosives is brought up. police are always especially particularly cautious especially given the number of skyscrapers and important buildings around there. >> i want to bring in some more information here on the suspected gunman here. let's go to nbc jim m. >> we're learning more about the gunman. and there are likely calls going on to intelligence agencies to see what else can be learned

about the individual. however, all signs are point together man acting on his own and not a part of a terrorist organization. he was not a juvenile deealing want for australian police but long police record. he's approximately 50-year-old iranian refugee with a troubled and criminal past. on his website he goes by the name of sheik haron. as in cleric or spiritual leader. he was apparently out on bail facing charges on at least a dozen sexual assaults. he was found guilty in 2012 for sending hate letters to about eight families of australian soldi ieiers who had been kille action in afghanistan. he was facing charges in connection with the murder of his ex-wife. in court only last friday, just three days ago, he reportedly failed on his last legal challenge to lift any of the

charges. and had become increasingly angry, we understand. not to be able to see his children. he could have been a deranged person acting solely to get attention or he could be a so-called lone wolf motivated by extremist groups like isis. he doesn't seem to be a member of any jihadist group. that became clear in how amateur he was at times. not knowing what time of extremist flag he was showing the world through the cafe window. >> during that the time at the 17 hours he was armed with a shotgun. what he also had an ipad there where he was communicating. we understand he was making the demands through social media. through facebook, youtube, using his ipad. what can you tell about the demands. the isis flag is one thing he wanted and to speak with australian prime minister. what more can you tell us? >> that's right. there were three hands you mentioned the two. the third one, which was perhaps

most bizarre is that through the hostages he was asking them to contact the outside world and to hopefully establish contact with what he was calling two other brothers presumably two of his accomplices not to explode "the bomb." he went on to say to warn the world there were two more meaning three in all bombs set in three different locations in downtown sydney. now immediately after this attack this raid was over. we saw the bomb squad go in with their robot to check the premises to see if, in fact, there was any sign of a bomb and, of course, that same thing would have been going on in different parts of the city as intelligence came in. so there's good news out of this tragedy it happened at 2:00 or 3:00 in the morning where people would not necessarily be in large crowds in the general areas.

>> yeah. given the fact this is in martin place in sydney, a highly traveled pedestrian area. very busy area in downtown sydney. jim, thank you so much. >> area, very busy area in downtown sydney. jim maceda, thank you so much. >> you bet. >> keep it right here on "newsnation." we'll be right back. y tuned... pen. get zero due at signing, zero down, zero deposit, and zero first month's payment on select new volkswagen models. emma, it's simple, when you are in a place like this, the best way to capture the moment is to feel it, even if you can't see it. you pay your auto insurance premium every month on the dot. you're like the poster child for paying on time.

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for many children in al by county, kentucky, survival depends on free meals at school. when they're not at school, some kids don't eat at all. >> the backpack program is to feed the children of our county. >> i'm alex wagner. find out more about childhood hunger and what you can do about it at msnbc.com/backpack. really dramatic moments ending this siege. we are watching the rapidly evolving situation out of sydney, australia. the dramatic scene unfolding at a downtown cafe where in the last hour we saw heavily armed police swooping in with bursts of gun fire as hostages ran out of the building. the hostage taker and gunman has been identified as heron moan's, a self-proclaimed cleric who has been living in australia since the '90s.

joining me is chief correspondent for the "new york times." david, thank you for being with us this morning. what more are you hearing from your sources about this gunman? >> not hearing a whole lot about him. of course, you have to be cautious because all of the early reporting that we're getting about his history is probably subject to significant correction along the way. but it is interesting to sort of just note a couple much things if the facts we're hearing are right. first of all, he would have been in the country for a long period of time. and that tells you that he would have been somebody who would have either been self-radicalized or part of a group that was radicalized but certainly not a recent immigrant coming in. the second big thing i think we've learned about this is he appeared to be working by and large alone. this didn't appear to be a very

sophisticated plan he had in place. just look at the demands he was making that we're hearing. that tells you on the one hand that this could have turned out a whole lot worse, but it also tells you that one of the big concerns we have are individuals who just become convinced by what they're reading that this is the kind of step they need to go take. it's not clear he had a real connection to isis. >> it appears this gunman really didn't keep a low profile. we're looking at video of him speaking to what appears to be some press out there just a little bit of a collection of video of him. so what can we put together as we piece together to find out more about him and the motive, knowing that he has been quite out there, vocal on social media and also, very quickly, his criminal background. >> you know, you're in a case here with a society in australia that's got a very westernized legal system.

and while i'm sure we're probably going to learn that he was on the radar of many intelligence and police groups, that doesn't necessarily mean that they had sufficient evidence to pick him up. >> right. >> somebody who's conceiving something like this in their mind, you may not have this evidence. >> as we piece together more about this man, thank you so much for being with us, daisvid sanger. that does it for this edition of "newsnation." i'm francis rivera. thank you for being with us. tamron hall will be back tomorrow. we continue with this story in australia with "andrea mitchell reports."

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someone well-known to police. >> he's an iranian cleric by the name of haron monis. we understand he was granted political asylum in australia. >> good day, i'm andrea mitchell in washington where we are monitoring breaking news from australia, from sydney. the sudden and violent end to a hostage standoff in the heart of that city a little more than an hour ago, tactical police stormed a cafe where customers and employees were taken hostage. you can hear gun fire and explosions. there are reports, not confirmed by nbc news, of injuries and possible fatal outs from the scene. we're waiting word on the condition of the suspect, haron monis, a self-described cleric and activists with a criminal background. joining me is