the lone wolf gunman is dead. >> i, too, would like to commend the work of our police. while everyone might secondguess as to what has occurred in the last hours, well, they're the ones who had to make the decision. our police had to actually deal with this incident. it was tough, exacting work. many hours whether on point or whether part of a team that had to make that entry and deal with the situation. i want to point out, they have saved lives. >> all this played out in a coffee shop in the heart of sydney, australia's financial district. the police did know the man they were dealing with. a self-proclaimed cleric from iran with a long rap sheet. this year australia passed anti-terror laws. they've been carrying out terror raids ever since. the country has been tracking 200 people who have traveled to syria and iraq, many of whom have since returned to australia. so far, no concrete evidence this attack was designed by isis. but isis has proclaimed if wants chaos, no matter the cost. the big concern now, are there other folks hiding behind

political cover trying to shroud their crimes and whatever personal grievances they have in a war with a higher calling? this hour we'll dig deeper into implications for our allies and for us at home. first, we start with the amazing story of how the hostages fought back. "daily beast" contributor courtney is in sydney, australia, where it's now 7 a.m. we hear there was an open door and the hostages took their chances to escape. tell us what happened. >> yes. so, the situation actually escalated fairly quickly just after 2:00 this morning. there was reports of loud gunfire and bangs that either came from gunfire or explosions. at that point, a group of hostages were seen running from the cafe. the police then entered the building. there was more reports of gunfire. you could see loud -- you could

see the pops of light coming from the front of the cafe. and then more hostages then ran up from the building and the police, again, open fire inside. >> courtney in sydney, thank you very much for that. here with us at the table is michael kay, a retired lieutenant colonel in the british royal air force and former adviser to uk defense, and joining us jim cavanaugh, a retired atf special agent in charge and former hostage negotiator and navy s.e.a.l. commander dan o'shea who ran the hostage working group in iraq and is now vp for kidnap and ransom at grom technologies. jim, let me start with you, tktically when the police there encountered this situation where you have a coffee shop where there are several folks there being held hostage by a gunman who you don't know what they're going to do when he moves in,

how do the police deal with that situation to make sure that there is no loss of life that can be possibly avoided? >> well, they're trying their best not to lose any hostages' lives, clearly, toure. but it's a very difficult situation for them because the hostage taker has the power over the people he's holding. he has the power to kill them. that's basically all the power he has. he's trying to grab other power like, you know, news media, get out his word or through the internet. his real power and the power that's in the seesaw with the police is the power over the lives of the people present. so, the commander, the on-scene commander has to make a difficult decision. likely this. not sure absolutely, but likely this was an emergency assault decision after dynamics changed inside, when those five or six people ran out and they made a decision to make an emergency assault. they threw their flash bangs. gunfire exchange 37.

he's killed. an officer wounded with a pellet. and, unfortunately, two hostages dead. very difficult situation but they probably had no choice but to act at that moment. >> you have negotiated in a hostage situation before. gives a sense of how you even have a conversation with the hostage taker. give us a sense of how you think this might have played out. >> like my colleague previously stated, you want to solve these with a negotiated settlement, but they had a profile on this guy. the guy had a long rap sheet so they probably knew a lot about him. what the negotiator's job would have been to try to get empathy, because ultimately this was a lone gunman. he can only last for so many hours. that's what may have happened in the middle of the night where he might have got distracted or maybe falling asleep.

what prompted those five to run out and then they were probably forced as the commanders on the ground that it was a go decision for them to make that charge to go in. it's so dangerous. when you do a hostage rescue mission because odds are hostageses are going to get wounded or killed. that's usually the last resort but they were probably forced up against the wall. the fact only two hostages were killed speaks to the credibility of the guys that went into that room because they probably had no choice at that point. >> dan, in the hostage taker's mind, what is his end game? how does he see this is all playing out? >> we don't know enough about in gentleman but from my experience dealing with this mind set, he may have been describing the martyrdom. he was up on charges for his ex-wife's murder, he had other charges pending. he probably reached the end of his rope. it might have been a modern day he decided this is my modern day jihadist way out. the negotiator could have passed

that onto the on-scene commander where he says, dieing is the end state what this guy wants and he obviously wanted to take as many people with him. >> talk to us about the broader context in australia. toure was mentioning some numbers at the top. tracking 200 people who have left from australia. intel says 60 are currently fighting for isis. what's going on in australia where we seem to see a rise in extremism. >> there's a rise, you're right. we should go back to 1988 where there was a drive-by shooting where four australian lebanese men were charged with the drive-by shooting. you uncover jihadi cells in melbourne and sydney and nine guys were arrested. you come to september, this september, and you have the biggest anti-terror raid where over 50 men are apprehended.

and one of the main guys is the isis sort of premier in australia, if you like. they had a plan to go out and randomly behead people on camera. you could say isis is compounding the problem, but there's -- >> there's been a build-up your saying to this point? >> absolutely been an issue with sectarian violence since 1988. >> you've dealt with these kind of cases where you have an intersection between domestic law enforcement and national security implications that we're talking about here. how does the hostage team in this live situation deal with that? they want, as you've been describing, secure the facilities and do their job on the ground, while the whole world is wondering if there's any kind of international nexus with terror groups. >> like mikey said, it's going to go to the intelligence community working that intel and

the police investigative teams into the command post. you know, these operations are run, whether like dan described from navy s.e.a.l.s, whether it's a military special operations group or a police tactical group, they're all basically run the same. i mean, they're run the same with on-scene commander, chief negotiator, tactical supervisor, intelligence unit, investigative unit. we ran them that way in the domestic law enforcement. it's effective. it works. you're trying to save those lives. so, everybody knows how it works. everybody can work within those practice ram t parameters. now with everything that's going on in australia, it could have been a lot worse. if we had an organized cell like they disrupted already in australia, we could have had a mumbai situation. that would have been a whole lot worse in loss of lives. one guy who's a criminal terrorist, wants to be a terrorist criminal. he has mixed motives probably but he's one guy.

so, we lost lives here, it's tragic we lost two. but a cell could have been a whole lot worse. >> dan, jim is putting it in a really -- in terms of saying, you know, a single guy who wants to be a terrorist and thus acting in a way that perhaps isis would want him to, even though they may not actually even know him. we see similar things happening here and there, around the world. how are we, as the civilized community, going to deal with a world when any lone wolf can pop up in the name of isis, in the name of al nusra, what have you, and start doing terroristic things? >> well, all these great things brought up by the two -- my two colleagues about the escalation of the violence, the threat isis is posing and you're absolutely right. this was a lone gunman. it could have been far worse. but the reality of dealing with the larger issue itself, that

this is a fight within islam. there must be a much more aggressive calling out because these gentlemen, they are quoting the koran, calling it -- that's what inspires them to do this. so, this is -- this is going to be a very long hard look within -- >> but, dan, is this really about islam or about maniacs who twist the koran to their own twisted sort of desires? >> well, you have to understand, this guy and others are being radicalized -- call it what you will, but being radicalized by the exploitation of social media. this guy was using all avenues, posting on youtube, he was having his hostages calling a local radio station. he was taking a playbook right out of isis to basically spread the word. that's the problem, it's inspiring more and more of these attacks. again, this was a lone wolf, a crackpot, a claimed cleric, if you will, a muslim cleric, but

by all indications this guy was really a criminal leading down to probably a terrorist and the jihadist calling. but it's growing. the fact this guy is from iran really probably a shia, i would assume, with me making no connection to isis makes no sense. the majority of people getting killed in iraq and syria are shia, being killed by isis or isil, they're predominantly sunni and taking that sunni strand. this is a larger fight within islam itself about addressing these problems and how are they not pushing these out because people are getting radicalized. and it's not just happening on social media. it has-s happening in mosques around the world as well. >> we know he was shia and converted to sunni. >> to that point, mike, couldn't you also say that he's trying to maybe say he has a purpose? i mean, this is a thug, this is a guy well known for a very terrible past. and you could argue he's hiding behind this black flag to prove that he's fighting for something. that he is fighting for this so-called religion war.

>> yeah, i mean, look, i think we can c-- we can't really separate if someone is a criminal, mentally deranged or a jihadist. they fit within the same diagram. i want to pick occupy dan's point. what i think is interesting here, just in terms of how someone becomes disenfranchised, we would expect the group that did this amazing chart where most of the fighters are coming from from around the world to go into syria, saudi arabia is number one on there. you don't see or you wouldn't expect to see many people being disenfranchised from iran, which is shooe shia dominated, which has the proxy force hezbollah which has been fighting in syria against islamic militants for a long time. you wouldn't expect someone from iran to be disenfranchised and then support the sunni extreme interpretation of what isis is about. there is a sunni extremist group in australia, and the cia and

fbi are very familiar with that group but it's a small minority. they've taken up arms and picked up arms because they've been pressed by the syrian -- the iranian regime for so long. i think what we have to get our heads around here is it really can be anyone from society. the really important point is the way that anyone can harness social media and propaganda. this guy was nobody yesterday. we have spent the last 24 hours on cable news zoning in on this guy. this guy hasn't beheaded anyone. there haven't been mass executions. all he's done is he's gone into a cafe and he's taken hostages. that has commanded the attention -- >> that's what terror is. >> -- of the world. absolutely. the spectrum is huge. >> let me ask jim about the point mikey is raising. i think people at home can relate to which is, well, maybe the profile here is an overlap between someone who's de ranged but also sympathizes with

enemies of australia and the united states. now that the actual live conflict is over, how do you disentangle that? doesn't it matter a great deal whether this was a person who was just basically a low-level criminal, abby called him a thug. he may just be a violent criminal. isn't that very different as a criminal who latched onto something than a person who's actually an operational ally of our enemies? >> that's right. ari, that's a great point. motives become mixed in a criminal mind. look at this guy. he's got a criminal record. he was an accessory to murder of his ex-wife wife, burning her and maybe the children, sexual assault charges. he's writing letters to the families of military people who have been killed in the middle east. he's doing both. he's appointed himself a cleric. he's not a muslim cleric.

he's a phoney. he wants to kill people. that's not what, you know, islam is calling to kill people at the cafe. he's not a muslim cleric. he's a criminal in disguise, wolf in religious clothing and a mixed bag. but much of them are. zarqawi, the example i used in iraq, he was a criminal all his life before he went to al qaeda. that's not unusual. many of these guys are like that as well. and to your point, ari, do we study it? yes. because we want to know who's next. who else could be stopped. who's the next guy that can do this. absolutely, you're right on point. and the discussion on point, these guys radicalized like dan said on the web. they'll lash out. it is a struggle inside greater islam, but it's a small part of people engaging in this violence and radicalism. you know, the australians are trying to stop it. they're doing their raids. they're trying to do everything they can. so is the world.

i call it a low-grade -- low-grade world war because it's happening across the globe. >> jim cavanaugh, michael kay, stay with us. dan o'shea, thank you so much for your time this hour. we'll cover this breaking news from all the angles, including the implications. are isolated events like this the new norm for terror? inside the white house as it all went down. what the president knew and when. "the cycle" rolls with breaking news stories.

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we are back with our continuing coverage of the hostage siege in sydney, australia. even as it ended, implications are being felt around the world today. while we do not know of a direct connection between the gunman and isis or any radical islamic group or whether this, in fact, is a lone wolf attack. this is exactly the terror and chaos isis has repeatedly had people spread around the globe. now it's asking nations to re-examine their terrorism security merchandise. joining us for what this means, we're joined on the set with retired lieutenant colonel michael kay and joining us is david rothkopf. and joining us from virginia is former fbi profiler and msnbc contributor clint van zandt. thank you for being with us. david, i wanted to start with

you on what exactly isis is doing. we don't know of a direct connection but what is isis doing to encourage this sort of lone wolf attack around the globe? >> well, isis by its nature dross misfits and people who are seeking this kind of trouble. don't know that we're ever going to draw a direct connection between isis and this guy. the more we hear about this guy, the more it seems like he was not only a lone wonderful but that he was nuts, you know, that this was a disturbed man who had a history of bad domestic issues. a whole host of other things. >> delusions of grandeur here. >> i think. this is off your point, but i think it's worth us stopping for a second and saying, if this guy hadn't raised an islamic banner, would we have spent the last 15 hours covering this story? he is a nut who took over a store but he appropriated the mantel of this much bigger purpose and used it for other

purposes. whether he used it for isis's purposes or not is another thing. i do think we need to ask ourselves what role all of us as observers had in taking this and pretending it was something else. long before we should have drawn those consciouses. >> what do you mean pretending it was something else? >> well, i was on tv today. i was on with mike earlier this morning. we were sitting there and the discussion is, what does this mean? how do they respond to the terror threat? what does this imply about u.s. national security? well, it doesn't apply anything about u.s. national security. it implies something about one guy in australia. now, other people can use the mantel of terrorism to advance their own interests. there's some distant correlation between this and the boston bombers. we're not so sure whether the boston bombers were really associated with a bigger movement or not. but i do think we need to keep it in perspective.

it's better if we sort of stop and get the facts and then make a judgment. >> clint, isn't this as a profile, isn't this exactly what isis is wanting? i mean, simply raising the black flag, wouldn't they be cheering from afar here? here you have a lone wolf who causeds the world to literally stop in its tracks with simply a backtrack and a gun, isn't this exactly what they're pushing for in all of their propaganda videos? >> well, it is. i couldn't agree more with your last guest. we've had 42 school shootings in united states this year. we don't give a whole lot of attention to them because we're used to them now. we had an individual in pennsylvania today killed six people at three different locations. we've not heard of that. we're concerned with this because this guy had a black flag folded up in his pocket.

he didn't even have an isis flag. this was a byof, bring your own flag, and he didn't even have the right flag. what he had was a shotgun, a little rhetoric, access to social media and the news media that picked up on the idea much terrorism because once we hear that, we think if it can happen in australia, it can happen anyplace. the answer is, this guy, i don't think is a lone wolf. i think he's a lone nut. but a lone nut with a gun is just as deadly as anybody who functions under the shroud of terrorism. >> you know, it's such a good point you both are making. mike y i want to bring you into the conversation. we know we define terrorism not like traditional crimes or traditional warfare, but we define it in part by its intent to terrorize and that involves some public reaction. our two other experts here telling us sometimes a rush to potentially overreaction.

mikey, i'm reminded as a counterexample of the gulf war when famously there were scud missiles going into missile and a question about how to respond to that and how to run from that. there was a time when many missiles lobbed into an outdoor concert and there were fears there would be gas attacks and all the musicians put on their gas masks and kept playing. many of the people there who travel with gas masks put them on and kept playing. it was a photo that went around the world in the early '90s. what do you think we could tangibleably do in the uk or u.s., as we confront these breaking news event to provide some context or even attitude that life shuz not change all of a sudden when one crazy person makes a threat. >> that's a great point, ari. i think the commissioner from the new south wales police articulated quite nicely during the presser in terms of he was very articulate and forthright in saying, please, come to

sydney. please do not let very small incidents like this prevent you from coming and enjoying australia. i've been to sydney three times, i've been to melbourne four times. there is an action. every action has a consequence. we have to look inwardly. we're talking very much about isis here. we're talking about why is it or what is the effect of isis on, you know, making people disenfranchised and turning. we've also got to look at our own foreign policy. australia has been clinical in afghanistan. it withdrew from afghanistan in november after a 12-year campaign. the australian sas have been working hand in glove with the u.s. helicopter crews. australian commandos have been working with u.s. drug enforcement agency and they have smashed heroine factories which is what the taliban uses to

brank roll themselves. they've been prolific. if you look at tony abbott and his stance on syria, he authorized 600 troops to the region. he authorized eight super f-18 hornets to conduct air strikes in iraq. iraq only, not syria. the question we need to look at here, one of the questions is, what will tony abbott's response be to this now? will he increase his footprint on the ground? will he authorize strikes in syria? because with every action there is a consequence. so, we have to be mindful that, you know, we are part of this problem in the way that we deal with foreign policy. i'm not saying we should alter it but we should be mindful of what we're doing and look at the secondary and tertiary consequences of that. >> michael makes a good point when we think about why are folks doing these sort of things, foreign policy is part of it, as well as the domestic policy. australia has had recent terror raids, trying to crack down on folks they are concerned about there. when we think about how to keep

ourselves straight, all these reasons why folks might want to attack have to start coming into the stew. unfortunately the coverage given cases like this worldwide encourages isis to put more propaganda out there. it also encourages those individuals around the world who kind of sit on the abyss of a little bit crazy and a little too religious to make a bad choice and to carry out some of the threats that isis is doing. know full well, we've been on alert the last month or two because isis has said in the u.s. they want to grab soldiers or police officers and publicly behead them. and then in australia and other countries, they want to grab civilians and do the same thing. so, in these large population groups, you're employing to have these fringe of the fringe individuals, whether religious, political or psychological

motivation that just need that little extra push to send them over. because they're lone wolfs, lone nuts, they're not linking with anybody else. cia, fbi, we can't intercept their communications because the only person they talk to is themselves. they agree to everything they say. >> michael and david, please stay with us. clint van zandt, thank you. appreciate your insight. up next, what america can and should take from today's siege on a cafe in sydney. >> i was in the cafe getting a coffee and then i sat outside the cafe to chat on the phone. in those few minutes that i was on the phone, this unfolded. i don't know whether the gunman was in there when i was in the cafe or in the minute or two afterwards. but either way, this unfolded very, very quickly.

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left two hostages dead. pentagon officials have been following the developments since the news broke late last night. the pentagon is not characterizing it as a terror attack. pentagon's chief foreign correspondent is jim miklaszews miklaszewski. can you tell us why they're not classifying this as terror? >> let me correct you quickly. there are no u.s. governments on high alert today. state department, homeland security, the pentagon, there are none who have issued a alert to the american people after this event. ultimately, officials will tell you, look, it's up to the australians to determine and characterize what went on there today, whether it was a random act of violence or whether it was a terrorist act. i can tell you that all the senior leadership in the building here this morning, civilian and military, were briefed that there is no direct connection that could be found

between this individual and isis. that they say was based on intelligence. they won't say where they got intelligence but it's more likely than not they got it not only from their own discovery but also from australians themselves. just remember back when there were two canadian soldiers killed about a month ago in ottawa, in two separate attacks by two separate semifinal-radicalized jihadists. at that time, that was considered so significant that the u.s. military operating in canada were told not to wear their uniforms off any kind of canadian military base because they could be a target. there was a warning, not a high alert, but there was a warning issued to u.s. military not only in the u.s. but worldwide to be on alert for any kind of similar attack against military

personnel anywhere in the world. krystal? >> thank you for that. the question many americans are asking themselves today is how could we possibly stop something like this from potentially happening here? after all, it is impossible to protect every coffee house or public space. we got a statement from the chair of the house committee on homeland security, congressman mike mccall. he said what we've witnessed in sydney should be a call to action and all our allies who have been threatened by violent extremists. the united states must wage a robust effort here at home to combat violent islamist extremism by working with local communities to intervene when we see signs of it, fighting

against online islamist propaganda and providing ways to stop individuals lured into jihadi cool subculture before they act. how do we keep them from resorting to these horrific means? >> i would start off by saying it's a multi-tiered approach. you would look at possible communities where individuals could be lured into the magnetic appeal of groups like isis or perhaps other organizations, try to reach out to these communities, make their concerns heard, let them feel they're part of the process in this country. really kind of doubling up those efforts to make sure that nobody feels isolated from the political process in the country. also work on some socioeconomic factors. make sure that doesn't allow the kind of fertile soil, if you will, where people can again be radicalized and exploited. also, there's the long reach, if you will, of policy consequences that the united states needs to address. certainly in places like the middle east where there are a lot of grievances and actually push some of those countries to lead the reforms on trying to

tackle some of the ideological problems that allow groups like isis to exist. at the end of the day, these problems come from that part of the world, from that region. so, there are solutions in that part of the world that have to be really pushed to the forefront. we're not seeing that yet. that's why this ideology continues to exist. you're not going to be an ideology with bombs, missiles and tanks. have you to drain that swamp of the ideology by trying to push forward reform, good governance, democratization and allowing the people there to feel part of a process. >> david, as jim was just saying, the u.s. is not on high alert. to be honest, people are thinking about this. it's probably on their mind. because there is concern of a lone wolf type attack. what can actually be done to prevent that? you think about reading threats online or someone with a criminal past. you can't arrest them. what can you actually do to prevent something like what happened this morning? >> well, you can do what we do

every day with our police, with the law, with the intelligence services, with pardoning our assets, with tsa. we can do all the things we do to make ourselves safe. but we have to be realistic. we can't actually stop this from happening. it's going to happen again and again. one thing we can do is eliminate some of the incentives. you know, one of the things you were talking about, you know, had to do with the exploiting people who are capable of radicalization. i think we also have to be careful of letting people exploit radicalization to raise their profile, because every time we do, every time we give them center stage, it allows some guy who's a nut out there to say, hey, what about me? this could be my moment in the sun. if we take that away from them, that reduces the incentive for guys to go out there and do that. >> is that part of the reason we're not on high alert? we don't want to encourage isis

any more? >> i think there's no reason to be on high alert. this guy was not necessarily associated with these groups. you know, when there are threats, we respond to those threats. i think ayman brought up very good points about things we need to do in the middle east because extremism in the middle east, and it's not just isis. it's dozens and dozens of groups. is a big problem. we need a strategy for dealing with it. but we can't sort of let terrorists, outliers dictate how we live our lives in our streets. we can't give over main street to phantom terrorists who don't really exist. that's -- you know, that's another side of this. that's another part of the culture of terror. it opens us up to that. we've got to resist it. >> ayman stick with us. david, thank you so much. next in our breaking coverage, president obama is traveling but still following the developments out of sydney very closely. we'll go live to chris jansing at the white house.

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president obama about to leave new jersey after speaking to u.s. troops stationed there. he did not mention today's hostage situation in australia. but he has been briefed throughout the day on the crisis. he offered u.s. assistance to our allies. for the latest on the white house reaction and support for this u.s. ally, we turn to nbc senior white house correspondent chris jansing on the north lawn. >> hey, toure, how are you? >> i'm good. how are you? what can you tell us about the white house's view of all this today? >> well, obviously, the president has been updated throughout the day. lisa monaco was his point person. she is his counterterrorism expert. when you have a situation like this, particularly in the early minutes and even the early hours, it's unclear what's going on. there's a system that kicks in. and the department of homeland security is one of the key points here but also this is a multiagency effort. you have the fbi, the cia, you heard from jim miklaszewski, the

department of defense, the national security agencies, all these folks are gathering intelligence and they're coordinating their efforts. again, then that goes to lisa monaco, who updates the president. i can also tell you, she's been the point person talking with her counterparts in australia, offering the help of the united states intelligence and otherwise and getting u.s. people on the ground there, particularly in that consulate downtown to a safe location. that was evacuated very early on. but now that the situation has resolved itself, as you pointed out, the president has been receiving updates but is on his way back now to washington, d.c. with no threat level assessed, no concerns about a threat to the homeland here, toure. >> senior white house correspondent chris jansing, thank you. as you heard, the white house in constant contact with our australian allies. one of the key members in the alliance who have conducted air strikes against isis in coordination with the u.s. joining us to unpack all this,

former u.s. obama to morocco, jim ginsburg and msnbc correspondent ayman. we've been talking about crisis management. let's talk about foreign policy here. for people who haven't been thinking much about australia, walk us through their role as a key western ally in the ongoing efforts. not only against isis but in the middle east more broadly. >> well, you know, certainly ambassador ginsburg can talk more about u.s. diplomacy with australia but they have a long-standing working relationship with the united states in the region that doesn't just go to the middle east but also we've seen in cases like afghanistan, with actual boots on the ground. they've been a staple in the post-iraq invasion from 2003 1k3 onwards. as far as allies go, australia is perhaps one of the closest in

the region. over the past several years, past decade, shared a lot of security cooperation with the united states. it extends not only in the middle east but southeast asia and the area where the two countries have a lot of commonalities. what we've seen over the past several months is they have similar threats and risks. they both have citizens from their countries traveling abroad and certainly australia an open society, democratic society, worried about those returning from the battlefield wishing to cause some harm. both societies have sizeable immigrant populations. as a result of that, it makes it hard when you have team talking about policy issues and freedom of expression issues at the same time you're trying to balance that with the growing threat of terrorism and extremism in their societies. >> if you can speak to that same point, at lines between the u.s. and australia, and also having spent some quality time in the white house, how they are probably feeling at the moment about what took place in

australia just this moment. are they more concerned than they're letting on? obviously, we're not alerted here in the united states but they must be thinking through this. >> this should be concerned. australia goes back to 9/11 here. there was a major attack in bali that killed hundreds of australians right after 9/11. australia has been front and center in being a strong ally of the united states during this war against al qaeda. there has been a series of incidents recently in australia where australia has rounded up extreme wannabe and those who want to leave australia and go fight for isis. we don't see that all the time. now, with respect to the white house, australia's critical part of that alliance against isis. it's clear whether this individual who engaged in this act of what i would call local terror or the wannabes, the fact australia is serving as one of the pivotal allies of the united states in this war against isis

is generating that type of, shall we say, self-radicalized individual in australia. there's plenty of them. we don't see them every day, but can you be certain that australians rounding up a great number of those people. >> ambassador, how are we coordinating with australia has they try to root out that homegrown extremism and radicalization? i'm sure we're monitoring that closely. are we actively giving them advice? >> there's an enormous amount of intelligence between the australians' intelligence services and the cia and the fbi. clearly, every time that there have been australians who have been trying to go fight for isis, that immediately gets picked up on our radar screen as well because just as americans who have gone to fight for isis, we don't know. when they're english-speaking natives, even though they speak with an accent in australia and he we don't, of course, whether or not in the end they're fungible because they're being used as we saw in the beheadings

to terrorize and promote isis activity on the web. it's important for us to understand, we don't watch it every day but the social media isis is using to attract australians, americans, canadian is vociferous and we have not made a dent in that. >> ayman, i want to ask you something different. we know when one muslim around the world does something, the entire community is blamed and looked at and saying, you know, what is going on with that community? that's not right. but that's the way the psychology goes. i want to ask you about the american muslim community and where they are afterwards. there's a nice substory coming out of sydney. folks sort of fighting against that islam aphobic with th the #illridewith you. if you ride to work in muslim garb, i'll ride with you, make you feel safe, comfortable. a lot of people in america are

anti-islam phobic, so what does the american-muslim community look out of this incident? >> i think there's two parts to that question. one is, does the muslim community have to do and what does the larger community have to do. the muslim community needs to make its voice heard. these people don't speak in the name of religion or in the majority of law abiding citizens. it would be wrong to put onus on the group to condemn it. we certainly don't do it for other groups who may have committed crimes, heinous. i think the american experience with immigrants of all walks of life have been tremendously successful. we don't want to see our way of life change because of incidents like this. this plays to the hands of the

terrorists. it won't change the way they are in australia and won't change them today. that's a very important point so people feel they belong in these countries and these societies. they enrich the society they live in. but from a political understanding, it is important to have these voices part of the discussion. >> ambassador help us with the big picture threat assessment here. if we want to stipulate for now there's not enough evidence to say this attack was isis-coordinated. update us on what is the threat from isis which clearly has attacked western targets in the middle east. how much of isis is a threat in western nations like australia or the u.s. at this point? >> i think they are a far graver

threat in europe because there are so many hundreds of european nationals that have gone to fight for isis and tried to return on their passports. and once inside the european union they can go anywhere within the european union. we should be mindful when we hear about airport threats in euro europe. it is largely in concern that an isis terrorist may have made their way back and may have talked on chat rooms about attacking airlines making its way not united states that's where the most largest significant threat is right now. >> hit on that. obviously isis is dangerous especially in that part of the world but as it relates to western countries how concerned should we be in our day to day lives as we get on the subway or get our coffee, is this

something we the media can sometimes over play or is there a real concern if that we should think of what we do every day. >> i think there is an element that the media sometimes does over play. when you look at a group like isis they are ideological organization but are not carrying out attacks kwloond they can control. beyond what they can control. not in very open societies. what they are trying to do now is in a stage of acquiring and holding territory. that's why they are fighting on the ground. the concern is that it would inspire someone to do like what they did in canada had would be more problematic. isis and previously as we saw al qaeda they have a shock factor to their attacks. particularly al qaeda that used

to carry out two or three simultaneous explosions at a particular target, now it seems they are simply trying inspire people to carry out attacks. we don't want to feel like we lost before anything happened but at the same time we have to be mindful of the new threats and how they are changing in our society. >> when we started talking about war an terror, that's ridiculous because terror is a tactic rather than a war on russia. but it highlights the idea how difficult this battle we are in is. are we in a permanent state of war against this ideology, this idea that we're going to use whatever we have to put you in fear so that we are going to be in this forever? >> i wouldn't use the word "forever" i've spent almost my entire life in the middle east

and well aware of the muslim community in the united states which are 99% pro-american and supportive. will do whatever is necessary. let's remember there were two young woman trying to get on a plane in oklahoma to go fight for isis. there was a chap two years ago tried to blowup a christmas tree had nothing to do with al qaeda but wound up all over the web. we are going to have to deal with this thank you very much courtesy of islamic extremism. fact is the president said this conflict with isis will go beyond his administration. the best thing we can go is understand the ideology is going to have to be combatted. it won't be just americans. number two it will take a bipartisan approach. it will take preserving and protecting our freem freedoms

and at the same time understanding isis is determined to hit back at the united states. >> you're talking about vigil t vigilantance without panic and over reaction. good thoughts. thank you both for joining us. we're right back with a final word after this. if i can impart one lesson to a new business owner, it would be one thing i've learned is my philosophy is real simple american express open forum is an on-line community, that helps our members connect and share ideas to make smart business decisions. if you mess up, fess up. be your partners best partner.

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see car insurance in a whole new light. liberty mutual insurance. that does it for us in the cycle. "now" with alex wagner starts right now. >>. the siege in australia is over but the question of why it

happened remains. >> a dramatic hostage stand off. >> the siege that lasted more than 17 hours now over. >> the gunman is an iranian cereal offender living in australia. zblrz zbl it is profoundly shocking innocent people should be held hostage. zblrz all signs point to this man acting on his own. >> many say this is a criminal act. >> this will change our lives. >> we are now seeing new patt n patterns of attacks. >> we will get through this. after n