happened remains. >> a dramatic hostage stand off. >> the siege that lasted more than 17 hours now over. >> the gunman is an iranian cereal offender living in australia. zblrz zbl it is profoundly shocking innocent people should be held hostage. zblrz all signs point to this man acting on his own. >> many say this is a criminal act. >> this will change our lives. >> we are now seeing new patt n patterns of attacks. >> we will get through this. after nearly 17 hours, the

australia hostage crisis is over. around 2:00 a.m. local time, police in australia broke the siege where they stormed the cafe where a self proclaimed sheikh had taken 17 people hostage three confirmed dead furnd others injured. the instant was the act of an individual. >> to the people of sydney, this was an isolated incident. do not let this sort of incident bring about any loss of confidence about working or visiting in our city. it was an act of individual. not about reasons to divide communities but auto heal wounds. >> he was facing dozens of charges of indescent exposure and pleaded guilty to the murder

of his ex-wife. >> within hours of the incident a coalition of muslims condemned his actions and urge people not to associate his actions with islam. at this time there is no evidence he had any connection to isis. joining us now, our guests. i think one of the reasons there was talk of isis because a gunman lowered a flag, looked like at black flag of isis, it was in fact a muslim declaration of faith, from your reporting how common is that flag in the muslim world? >> the flag itself is more of a banner, the actual writing on the flag, the expression, a declaration of faith, is on many

saudi arabian flags and on flags across the world. in and of itself doesn't mean anything but in the context of being use in battle fields it now connotes a different region and obviously people who cover that region now now what it symbolizes. that's why once that flag emerged on the window being held up by the hostages it gave this incident, this attack today, a very different level of concern, obviously for officials. because obviously the first thing people thought this was going to be terrorist related in the sense it may have been isis and what he demanded an isis flag that raised those concerns more. but again we're hearing this might have been an isolated individual.

the individual acted alone with out association to isis or other terrorist groups. >> yet isis has called for acts of terrorism around the world, what is plate for isis in moments like this, where there is a tenuous connection between this act of violence and isis and its message. does isis claim solidarity with this. >> most likely they will. we have seen isis be very opportunistic in seizing any opportunity to take credit for acts of terror and violence throughout the world. they have called for lone wolf attacks and that clearly falls in that category. >> one of the reasons this story gained a lot of traction is because folks don't understand the radicalization happening in

the pacific region and to speak specifically of that what's happening in australia. ly read an excerpt from the post. >> how significant is the home grown terror threat in australia at this point? >> extremely significant and australia sits on an interesting crossroads, although some what remote geographically, it is surrounded by countries with raging insurgencies, whether it be the philippines indonesia, so there is islamic militants in the southwest pacific. that's one issue. the other issue is that for the past several months we've seen isis feature members prominently

from australia and new zealand and others. they have grown in prom in ens pr prom in ens within isis. they know that material gets widely circulated. that material causes a major point of concern for officials there. it may not seem isis-related, the threat of isis attacks and recruitment is taken very seriously in australia and new zealand. >> talk about how those networks coordinate and trade militants. we talked about terrorist it cells in indonesia and parts of australia what is the exchange like in terms of communication. >> in the past there's been a lot more than just communication.

the most dangerous group in the region is an indonesia-based group that is largely out of business right now but may well get a new lease on life with isis. about 200 indonesia recruits are believed to have served with isis and when they come home they will have a lot of jihad cred. throughout the region fundraising has been going on in malaysia, philippines, and thailand and they really represent a threat. >> what of the australia government response. they have recently designated new powers to police in terms of -- the fine line between neutralizing threat and not incurring further threats.

>> certainly the response seemed very measured. they gave this a chance to play out for several hours before they felt neetd to act. according to the police they felt the need to act after they heard the gunshots. so there is certainly a time for questioning and certainly there will be according to the police commissioner, a review of the tactics that happened on the ground. there will be important asked about how this individual was released on bail. we do know he has a strong and long criminal back ground and certainly there will be those within the public spear in australia who will say why was a person with such a criminal past have been allowed to roam freely among the public. that will certainly be asked in weeks to come. who importantly the measure in terms of how it unfolded seemed very appropriate. they contained it to one area.

they addressed the media quickly to address the public to insure the situation was under control. it doesn't seem to havir ra irrational behavior. all of this being followed minute by minute from the media. they didn't release the information until they felt it could be released to the public. overall it was handled pretty well still a lot of questions to be answered. >> thank you for your time. coming up there's more on the news out the sydney whether the pacific is the new global front on the war terror. plus a new deadline tonight that has nothing to do with christmas shopping. and later, is american truly

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it worked. it worked now for 13 years. >> uh-huh. >> we've avoided another mass casualty and we captured bin laden and a lot of the guys responsible for the attacks on 9/11. >> i would do it in a minute. squl i would do it again in a minute. for dick cheney there are no regrets.

>> i told you what meets the definition of torture. 19 guys with box cutters did to 3,000 americans on 9/11. there's no comparison between that and what we did. >> in atlantic, . >> in cheney's world methods that were part of program like putting detainees in coffin size boxes were not considered torture because they were blessed by the program and rectal feeding, well, that's not torture either. >> this was over and above you admit. >> it wasn't done as part of the interrogation program. it wasn't torture in terms it wasn't part of the program.

>> anything that was unsanctioned wasn't torture because anything outside the program wasn't torture? huh? what about the fact we waterboarded detainees and convicted the japanese of war crimes for waterboarding, no, still not torture. basically joining me now senior writer for political magazine and washington post columnest and julie pace. eugene. i could not believe the craveness of invoking the memory of 9/11 as a defense to answer

is this torture. >> right because it doesn't answer the question. we did call waterboarding torture. americans can't be guilty of torture according to dick cheney. we are notal . >> the logic, i would set, torture and terrorism are not the same thing. they are both awful but not the same thing. pain is universal diagnose for what constitutes torture. conner takes apart cheney's argument and defends it by saying this.

>> i mean, that's basically what he's trying to say. >> that's the slow white bronco of history. >> yes it is. >> i think this argument, within the space of five or ten years, there will be a broad national consensus about what this was very much more in keeping with john's interpretation than dick cheney. it is fascinating to watch the push back of the individuals. particularly with cheney, but also with the cia folks in terms of just sort of covering themselves i don't know if i can use that term, but covering a certain part of the anatomy institutionally. and i think brandon fell into that pattern easily. once you take that job it is

your birth right to protect the agency no matter what. >> yeah, this has been pointed out by a number of analysts and reporters, the fact the white house has been contoent let john brennon be its main interlocker is fairly stunning. the fact the president hasn't felt the need to come out and talk to the american people that the dramatic conclusion we gained nothing from torture, innocent people died in gruesome fashion, seems stunning. go do you think the president will remark at some point. >> i think he will be talking about it. before this john brennan has really taken the lead with the cia scoping around den at

computers. you have to remember obama has a close relationship with brennan before brennan went to cia he was in the white house as top advisor. he is very close with the president. so it's not particularly surprising given their relationship to see brennan take such a forward leaning position but it is somewhat strange to not hear from the president himself at all. >> i would say, eugene, and peter draws many of the same conclusions that julie did, he writes this. sfrz . there in lies a problem. >> yeah but that actually goes to the beginning. the day after taking office president obama made torture illegal, never again, won't happen. however, he essentially decided at that time that there would be no serious criminal

investigation or prosecutions, that's been the policy of the administration not to look back in that way, that's the way they saw it. we don't want to look back but forward. i was not fond of this at the time. >> when dick cheney is out there saying, i would do it again, what reassurance do the american people have that it won't be done many again if we don't hold the ones who did the wrongs accountable. >> that is what the president said early on, it is christmastime didn't dick cheney say he was going to waterboard his grandchildren for waterboarding. >> #too soon. >> i say there is a lot of differences between the white house chief of staff and had a close relationship with brennan on this and it doesn't surprise me that the president hasn't

come near this. if he has asked a question we will hear talking points. i don't believe he will bare the depths of his soul in front of the american people. >> when mark was calling for brennan's regularisignation did white house greet that with a scoff or was there any consideration as to a more thoughtful response to all this. >> i think udalls on his way out, first of all, so anyone on their way out feels free to speak more publicly on this. the thing i find fascinating about obama's handling of this, he wants the release the ending of the conversation. he sees that as the reckoning. he doesn't see the need to hold people responsible and to analyze what happened. he just wants the report to

stand on its own. you talk about with people like cheney saying i don't regret it, i would do it again, can we prevent it from happening, the white house sees the report as a fire wall. if god forebid 9/11 happens again, the report would be what people look at to say let's not have it happen again, obviously no way to insure that. >> the distressing thing about this report, is it has become a partisan subject. >> exactly. >> the reading of this report, there's no consensus on it. unlike the church commission. unlike what reagan did in terms of humanitarian actions and treaties, there's a red-blue split on how you read and react to the torture reothport. >> i hope it is short lived.

if you listen how republicans react, few say ra-ra torture, maybe they shouldn't have released all the details, should have waited for us to give our stamp to it or whatever, but people like rand paul and others are not saying, we love torture. >> or even we like torture. >> or even we like torture. >> but what they're doing, rand paul says, torture bad, not sure about this report. >> that's political. but hopefully with the passage of time there will be a consensus as there has been -- as there has been for the entire existence of this country that torture is a bad thing and we don't to it. >> except we did it in the philippines. >> and in the 1960s during the cold war. we can't keep saying usually the consensus is, and we're not going to do it again now we have the former vice president saying

i'd do it again. no remorse. asked about some innocent people who were killed, no remorse. you think by 2016, for example, you think rand paul, who said on december 9th, said this. >> torture bad, transparency, okay, report, i don't know about it. >> i like the conditions, mostly bad. we don't torture unless we really, really, really want to. squl you think in two years when rand paul is asked about this issue he will be able to offer a more consensus view that this report was good for the country and we need to do something about our policy on waterboarding.

squl we're getting to a core political question. is the republican base reverting back to party of bush, which was about defense or this rand paulism, of backing up, getting back to a pre-1950 republican foreign policy, is that going to be durable. i don't think we know. i think what you're seeing is the republican base is fairly divided about this stuff and without that true north or true south these guys don't know where to go. >> if you want to talk about national security talk to john mccain. >> right. >> about the potential impact on u.s. forces over seas, who might be captured by people who don't like us. and if in fact we're torturers is it more likely that our people are tortured over seas. >> i would say there is probably a split among the democrat party. the president doesn't feel he has the running room to say this

is wrong. democrats in power who are able to speak truth are few and far between as we know. okay. julie thank you for your time and thoughts my friend. guys, hang with me. coming up, glitches, what glitches? this year the president is not letting the grinch steal his favorite christmas gift obamacare. >> you should go on the website, healthcare.gov, which now works flawlessly. there are good deals to be had and it's a good christmas present for people. >> or on that next. [ hoof beats ]

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siege today. >> we know that he posted graphic extremist material on line. as the siege unfolded yesterday he sought to cloak his actions with the symbolism of the isil death cult. tragically, there are people in our community ready engage in politically motivated violence. the events also show that we are ready to deal with these people professionally and with the full force of law. i want to thank the new south wales police and all the other agencies involved for their professionalism and courage. yesterday premier showed great stead fastness and sydney can be

proud of their calm during what was a very difficult and testing day. australiians should be reassured by the way our law enforcement and security agencies are responded to this brush with terrorism. there is nothing more australian dropping in for coffee and no words could explain how horrific it was our heart goes tout aoutl of those who were caught up in this horrific incident. our heart goes out to the families of the two hostages who died overnight. these events do demonstrate that even a country as free, as open, as generous, and as safe as ours

is vulnerable to acts of politically-motivated violence. but they also remind us that australia and australians are resilient and ready to respond. now, i do intend to go to sydney early in the afternoon to be further briefed by new south wales police and other security agencies. i also intend to say thank you as best i can in person to new south wales police officers and others involve in this appalling incident. i'll do more media then and take questions at this time when we do have a better idea of exactly what has happened. plainly there are lessons to be learned and we will thoroughly examine this incident to decide what lessons can be learned.

ifs b but i do want now, in the immediate hours after the siege, to offer these words of comfort to those caught up in it and reassurance to the australia people. >> that was australia prime minister tony abbott addressing the siege in sydney. officials saying motivations were political but not specifying what those motivations were. the siege happen in a coffee shop with 17 people. in september australia raised its terrorism alert level from medium to high giving police stronger power to fight extremist groups like isis.

70 australia citizens are fighting in iraq or syria and estimated 100 more are operating within australia. back with me now political scientist and vice president of national security and international policy, center for american progress. thanks for joining me gentleman on a fast-breaking news day. officials in australia have more leverage in terms of combatting terrorism and extremism in their homeland. how much of what happened today do you think is a reaction to that, i guess we could call a crack down, and how much of it is inevitable given the volume at illity of the world. >> it seems it was his own case.

he was very disturbed with criminal cases against him. he was using isis-rhetoric but it is an example of what police do in response, they heard shots fired and had to go in. >> the prime minister said he is politically motivated, we know he's not affiliated with isis, are you surprised they are giving him political motivation given how he is a disturbed individual with some kind of mental problems? >> well, he was disturbed and had a long criminal record including sexual assault, but, this was a crime that the perpetrator himself described as having political motivation. so i don't think prime minister abbott was out of line.

i believe with the characterization of what this really looks like. but i think part of the bigger picture is one that relates to your earlier segment, the response in the united states towards response to terrorism through torture. in australia they are taking a very measured approach to a very real threat and i think it will be a much better approach to cutting short the isis-recruitment than the over reaction that we saw shortly after the 9/11 terrorist attack. >> he drops the a banner that looks like a lot like an isis flag. it becomes a immediate why free-for-all. it becomes a geo-political story. and then there's reality, from the defense department point of view, this guy is lone wolf, crazy, it's almost impossible to

catch those folks, and our resources, do we -- do we distract from the real battle at hand? this guy claims to be part of something bigger but seems to be not a part of anything other than his own twisted ideology. >> the real question is why is he out on bail more than did we get the terrorism thing right. it is difficult to parse the sex appeal that is drawing in lots of people with isis, people with western passports could come home and do things and it is hard to extract that out from what could be a emmanuel sikosi this. what needs to happen is an approach, socially, figuring out what is motivating young people

in places like australia or the united states to join these guys. >> that's a good question. in terms of motivating young people in this part of the world the circumstances are different than in the middle east economically. what do you see as the main drivers of extremism. >> isis has been very good at playing up any grievances and essentially being one-stop shopping for any angry or simply out of work or disgruntled youth and not so young as well. the perpetrator in sydney for example was not that young. he had already been repudiated by those in the community a long time ago, she reathey reached o the police a long time ago. he had just became a

self-preclaimed sheikh just before this. why? because id yoideologies like is provide a useful handle for people who are like this, who have a lot of grievances real or imagines long before an excuse comes along. >> we talk about what is different in this response. a hashtag was born in the wake of this. #i'llridewithyou. it was a solidarity hashtag for the muslims. do you think it mitigates some of the other rhetoric we hear. solidarity would be a really important not weapon but tool to combat that.

>> it really does. i think social media cuts both ways. isis is effectively using social media to show horrible things they are doing to motivate people who might follow them. but it is extremely to focus on how people come together during these times. the vast majority of all people, muslims or non-muslims, are absolutely opposed to anything like this and want to help people live their lives and feel their kids are safe. >> in times of duress appealing to our better self is a lauderdaliblaudable thing. >> and it happens a lot. >> all the more reason to mention it. guys, thanks for your time. coming up, ted cruz just made people like him a little less if such a thing is even possible. i'll complain cross examioming .

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after es courting her own party's leadership, elizabeth warren is not 2k3wi6igiving up fight. she's continuing her attack on the just past trillion dollar

spending bill, a provision that will make it easy to crash the economy again. >> let's keep in mind about this provision. this is a provision that citi group lobbyists literally wrote and just to make sure everyone got the point, jamie diamond, the ceo of j.p. morgan personally made phone calls to house members to push for this change. >> warren may have lost the current battle, the bill now sits on president obama's desk awaiting his signature, she succeeded at elvating her cause. can't be said the same for ted cruz. saturday session nobody wanted gave democrats a head start to confirm executive branch nominees that likely would have sat unconfirmed if not for ted

cruz. as conservative washington post blog put it. back with me now glen and eugene. glen, are we finally seeing the ted cruz light bulb start to blinker eventually you'on its wo fading to black. >> oh, wow. >> i wanted to give america that beautiful metaphor and have you react to it. >> what's really interesting, i have never seen a senator or even a member of the house, for that matter, so openly criticized by his own party. we had a story today, my favorite was girlt who wanted to go home to see her kid in the nutcracker. you don't want to be on the

receiving end of her stink eye. i think this is going to be two years of nothing but naked contem contempt. and he loves it. >> exactly. >> the washington examiner, this was not a simple common occurrence. insubordination. >> whatever it is ted cruz is after, it's not love. not love. he's playing, i don't know, a bigg bigger, deeper game, longer game, or crazier game. >> what is that game? get everyone to hate me and i will win the nominations. >> right. everyone assumes he wants to be president or emperor or something. he wants the top job. can you get it by alien ating everyone in your party is the question. i don't hi you can but there you have it.

>> ted cruz, here's a tortured metaph metaphor, he's like the little old lady who won't sell her house to build the high rise. he owns a very specific and valuable people of real estate that represents 16% to 22% of the american populus. cruz is waiting for a pay off or he will hold off indefinitely. >> or he will have a starbucks build on top. >> that's what the little old lady ends up with. >> the little old lady will hold too long and end up being screwed by the developers. >> there you go. >> i guess the opposite is true for elizabeth warren in so far as she's holding onto a piece of land that, is this going to be a

increasingly vocal part of the democrat party? >> i think it really is. there's a huge liberal, progressive constit universiuece now speaks for that party. hillary clinton beware, basically. she can't win without those people. >> i have to think elizabeth warren's speech and comments of the last week have not been something greeted warmly in hillary's camp. i think there's a huge wing of the party that is left out of cenrist politics those practiced equally by obama and cruz

. >> one perceives cruz is searching for the spot light. >> and he's a younger man with a political future ahead of him. so i think it is fundamentally different. also i think it is interesting that chuck schumer gave the speech laying out the role for sentrist democrats and it landed with a thud. this is the only game in town. if hillary is smart, and she is, she will take some of flavoring from elizabeth warren and use it in her campaign. >> time is wasting for her if she's going to plan for her candidacy.

it's time to create a movement. >> she must know she's at a center of something. >> she's got to know. would be dense not to know. >> we don't know what political chops warren has under pressure. hillary is battle-testd. >> that is the lingo. >> it's also her greatest flaw. we wrote a story a couple months ago where we talked about david giving her the same bit of advice. it is striking to me and i tremendous wasted opportunity for hillary not to jump in and at least articulate some sort of vision. >> cooped we have had this battle-tested conversation at the end of 2006. >> yes indeed. it all comes back together like

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zero down, zero deposit, and zero first month's payment on select new volkswagen models. in the last hour, the department of defense and military officials told nbc there is no evidence that the gunman in sydney, australia had any connection to the terror group isis. hours before, 2 a.m. local time, police stormed the siege, one police officer was shot, no explosive was found at the scene. after hearing shots in the cafe and fearing injuries police made the decision to enter the hostage area. >> until we were involved in this emergency action we believe that no one had been injured.

that changed. we changed our tactic. >> according to white house press secretary, president obama has been briefed on the situation. that is all for now. "the ed show" picks up next. good evening americans fran welcome to "the ed show" at this hour it's 9:00 a.m. local time in sydney, australia. at roughly 10:45 eastern a swat team storm aid cafe where 17 hostages were taken. this after a lone gunman was killed and two hostages. one police officer was shot and suffered a non-life threatening injury. the center of sydney's shopping district has been on lock down.