that changed. we changed our tactic. >> according to white house press secretary, president obama has been briefed on the situation. that is all for now. "the ed show" picks up next. good evening americans fran welcome to "the ed show" at this hour it's 9:00 a.m. local time in sydney, australia. at roughly 10:45 eastern a swat team storm aid cafe where 17 hostages were taken. this after a lone gunman was killed and two hostages. one police officer was shot and suffered a non-life threatening injury. the center of sydney's shopping district has been on lock down.

the the man is a self-described muslim cleric and activist who is iranian born. no stranger to law enforcement in sydney. he was charged with sending harassing letters to widows to soldiers killed in afghanistan calling their late husbands, murderers. here's a time line of events in sydney today. >> heavily armed police are presently converging on martin place where a sydney cafe right in the middle of martin place, you can see hostages have been taken. this is a live shot. >> 9:45 local time monday, sydney, new south wales. police are called to cafe. >> a man walked into the lint

store in martin place, a woman believes he has a gun and calls police. >> helicopters flying above. police are doing a lot of work from the air. >> you see hostages with their hands in the windows. >> is there writing in the window. >> 10:10 a black flag in the window. >> we started to see screams from hostages in the cafe. >> not far are government offices. >> 10:30 surrounding buildings are evacuated. >> we just got out in single file really fast. >> it is a rich environment for someone hell-bent an causing death and destruction. >> 12:30 prime minister tony abbott addresses the country. >> i could think of nothing more distressing and terrifying to be

caught up in that situation and our heart goes out to those people. >> in an e-mail we are told president obama has been unbriefed on this unfolding situation in sydney. >> 4:00 p.m. the first three hostages escape. >> looks as though one staff member has managed to run outside and two customers, as you can imagine quickly cowering behind police officers. >> another woman running out of the building. no, sorry, that's the two from early, at this point in time we have five who have managed to escape. >> we still don't know what he is actually wanting. >> he's wearing a white shirt, black cap, he's unshaven and carrying a pump action shotgun. >> 1:15 local time tuesday. police name alleged hostage take

zbr . >> we can now say who he is, . >> 2:15 a.m. final group runs from the cafe. zbl at the moment four or five hostages have managed to escape or be removed. >> looks like more pictures are coming through, more activity going on. >> it certainly looks like gunfire. >> they're throwing something. >> the police are throwing something? >> they are. they're throwing something into the doorway and we just saw another hostage brought ought. >> 2:45 new south wales police forth confirmlatributed -- conf the shooting is over. >> two deceased amongst the hostages and the lone gunman has been shot and killed. >> today we must come together

like never before. >> we'll bring you any new details as we get them tonight. let me bring in more international affairs respondent and former profiler and msnbc contributor. gentleman, they say this is a target-rich environment. there are target-rich environments on every street corner in america. is this the model we will see from isis moving forward? >> yeah i think it is. i think this is an extension of this new world order that we have seen ever since we went into iraq in 2003. we completely destroyed the governance there and security vacuums allowed sectarian violence breed. and what we are seeing this

a-symmetrical event. it's not soldier versus soldier it is soldiers that can blend in with other combat ants they don't abide by any geneva conventions. they use threats and weapons systems that we find very hard to disconcern against such i.e.d' i.e.d's. they are using twitter, facebook, youtube. i covered the chat rooms, that's where a lot of these people exist and have their conversations, it's about how they become disenfranchised. there's a number of facets to this, yes, what we're seeing in terms of foreign policy is the norm in which we really deal

with these things, bombs, bullets and mortars, but it's not the answer because there's consequences to those actions, we have to look at the ind indigenous threat, what's the relationship with society versus the ethnic minority, those are the areas we need to be exploring. america's budget is $67.5 billion on over seas operation. let's spend that money at home. >> thank you. and your take, is this a lone wolf? >> whether he is a lone wolf or as i characterize him as a lone nut, you have to look potentially that this is a new form of terrorism.

whatever you call at fort hood or whatever we call the individual who beheaded the individual in oklahoma or whatever we call the guy who used the hatchet in new york city, this is a low financed form of terrorism if you're isis all you have to do is throw up inflammatory videos and rhetorics and wait for somebody who issiti isitting on the edgen emotional abyss, to jump off. you don't have to give them money. don't have to send them to a school. you just have to throw it out and wait for someone to take a bite and this case, this guy with a shotgun gets the world's attention because he pulled a black flag out of the back pocket, in reality, he didn't

have an isis flag. this should have been a bring your own flag. he couldn't even come up with a flag. any other society with the exception of that flag in his pocket it would have been one more nut criminal that brought about some deaths but now because of that flag and his back ground we put the international flag of terrorism over the top of this guy. >> yeah. >> and it brings the whole world's attention. and ed, what a training school for those sitting out there often the edge of abyss waiting to do something and see how cheap and easy you can step up on the stage of the world and demand attention. this is a low cost way to get international attention. and for someone who has deep-seeded psychological problems to know they are bringing about a suicide by cop. they are bringing about their own death but they get the attention of the world when they do it. somehow that gives them some

positive feelings, perhaps when they die. >> but clint, this man was no stranger to authorities in sydney because of the context he had with the families and the characterization he made of those who served in the military in afghanistan. so how do you piece through that? i mean, they clearly knew who this guy was. >> sure they did. we know who a lot of nuts are. we know who a lot of protesters are in this country but this is a guy who chained himself to the front door, he holds up plaquards that said he was tortured when he was in jail and he's accused of a violent murder of his ex-wife. and a number of sexual assaults. should they have locked him up and through away the key, should they kicked him out of the

country, but until someone crosses that line the only option we have is to wait for them to do something terrible or as police do sometimes send in an under cover person to see if you can figure out what they are up to and see if they really want to do something criminal, something crazy and then arrest them before they do it and when you do that you're charged with, oh, you set the guy up, law enforcement you made him do it, he wouldn't have done it otherwise, you're kind of on the horns of a dil emma when you are this close to someone who is psychotic or overwhelmed by his whole life. >> where is the defense. it's a chocolate cafe in sydney, australia. i mean, this is the world we live in now. there's target-rich environments on every street corner. >> yeah it is. i think a big part is for the

general public to understand there are these exist -- threat that's exist. if you see something say something. that's a big part of this. we have to appreciate there is a spectrum here. you have the lone wolf, someone who can take it upon themselves to conduct something like what we seen today. then you have the terror networks, more coordinated and actually speaking to people in syria and listening to the rhetoric. and then you got actually the hard core isis militant leaders out of syria and jihadist fighting all over the world. it's complex. there's so many levels. we need more resources and more intelligence to understanding how the seeds are actually planted organically.

>> gentleman. thank you for being on "the ed show." coming up how another bad ujt budget deals stirs up wall street. plus dick cheney's take on terror of .

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chbt isn't perfect. let me say this. a agree with you. dodd frank isn't perfect. it should have broken you into pieces. >> welcome to "the ed show." the budget bill the president pushed so hard for is now on his desk and i think it would be the worst bill he would ever sign since he's been in office. a saturday night senate vote, 18 republicans joined 21 democrats and independent earnhardt senat against the budget. saying this. >> this isn't the first time

washington has done the bidding for the big banks, back to 1999, in congress they repealed the act to allow citigroup and others to grow too big to fail. when they did fail tax payers had to bail them out. remember those days. back then north dakota senator predicted this would take place. >> in my judgment, i believe we are moving towards greater risk, substantial new concentration and mergers in the industry, almost certainly not in the interest of consumers and we are deliberately and certainly moving towards inheriting much greater risks in our financial services industries.

>> gentleman thank you for joining us tonight. senator, what are your thoughts when you hear elizabeth warren go on the senate floor and essentially say the same thing you were saying. >> well you shouldn't make the same mistake twice. this is not liberal, it's just common sense. you don't put together a big appropriations bill and put a big provision in it that says to the biggest financial services of the country, you go back to doing what you used to do that nearly collapsed the american economy. that should not happen. this president should not have said he would sign it because the fact is i'm convinced speaker boehner would have taken it out because he would not want to be branded. i would say to the president, you veto this and say to the

republicans if you want to shut down the government because you can't put this special reward for the folks on wall street that will use it to do the thing that's nearly collapsed the economy, if you want to do that, let's debate it and brand it on your cap, i don't think they would, i think they would have dropped it. >> this sets boundaries for future negotiations if this is the way it is going to be. i think it was poor negotiations on the part of the democrats. nancy pelosi had the guts to stand up and say this is hostage taking. if the republicans want something they just got to wait out the president. >> i would say the president made a mistake by getting into this. he did not have to say he would support it that he wanted us to pass it. we were in the midst of pulling it down in the democratic caucus

when the president jumped in and said i want this. what's hard for me to understand is how he thinks that's better for the american people. byron gave you the history. we lived through the savings and loan crisis and the one that went on later. you got to say to yourself, when are you going to learn people are greedy and government has to have regulations to control their greed. this is going to happen again as sure as i'm sitting here. >> i had a gentleman say what's not getting any publicity is the cuts they are making to the federal pension fund, could be upwards of 70% to workers in this country. now this budget cuts those pensions. this is a bad bill all the way across. there's a lot of ways to fund the government without changing policy how the financial industry will work. senator do you really think we

could go down the road again of getting into a financial mess where the american tax payer might have to write the big check again to save the financial system. we were on the verge of collapse and i think people forget that. could this happen again? >> sure. sure. this is adding substantial new risk. we should have abolished naked credit default swats, which is going up to a casino table and start gambling. too much risk. and to sign this into law with much greater risks with things call derivatives. we need banking institutions but i don't want them too big to fail and i don't want them taking on risks that the american people will have to bail out later. >> the banking industry is a lot different today than when you

made that comment 15 years ago. >> much more concentrated. >> so should we be concerned that the next big failure could be the mother load. could be the mother ship. could be a heck of a lot different from the one in 2008. >> we're going to have to have a president who will break up the banks. we cannot allow that much power to be concentrate in so few hands. that's what teddy roosevelt did as a trust buster. and what has happened in this banking financial services industry it has gotten more and more powerful between citizens unite where'd they can pump all the money they want into the system to buy elections and at the same time play with people's money at the gambling table. we have given them carte

blanche to put us into something who endous. horrendo horrendous. >> senator do you think the power of wall street is so strong in the senate it will be hard for the democrats in the progressive movement to come up with a position that elizabeth warren has and to be able to run a campaign that will be financed properly and able to compete. it almost makes you feel like we've lost the government. >> well they are pretty powerful but we have to reign them in on these bad practices. that's not liberal, it's common sense. if we don't have the threat to do that we threaten the economy. the economy is the engine. so we better be thinking more carefully what we will allow to happen with respect to risk on

wall street. this bill will add much more risk. i hope the president will finally succeed on reigning in the banking system. >> is the president legislatively naive. who would council him to make this move? and to sell it to people that this is such a great budget. and also i remember cap and trade early in the obama administration where goes to the house to tell you you have to trade and lo and behold didn't have the votes in the senate and a bunch of guys lost their seats, granted the economy had something to do with it, there are legendary f feaux pas, how are you able to unravel this. it has to go to the presidential. >> 9 president is going to have

to listen to some people other than the little group of people around him now. he is all by himself. he doesn't have the senate to save him as they have in the last six years. he is really in danger of really doing some awful things because he really doesn't understand. there's a story about governor ray of iowa who was once asked about a bill and he said, listen, i vote last. and that's what the president should have said when they asked him about this bill, i'm going to make my decision after i see what the house and senate do. but he got into it way too early and put his cards on the table face up. you could see what he had. >> yeah. >> and at that point he's lost it. >> let me make one more point there are a lot of good financial institutions out there, big, medium and small, but the ones doing unbelievably risky busy with derivatives and

swaps we can't allows that to happen when the citizens have to foot the bill. >> gentleman thank you. questions coming up next on ask ed life. stay with us. e. stay with us. ve. stay with us. she inspires you.

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does it plant any seed of doubt in you? >> no. >> no seed of doubt whether this worked. >> it worked. it absolutely did work. it worked now for 13 years. we avoided another mass casualty attack against the united states. we did capture bin laden and a lot of the guys responsible for at tacks on 9/11. i would do it again. >> is that dick cheney prote protecting the president's techniques. a defiant cheney often rewrites history and makes up his own rules. it's the same old story when it comes to torture. >> well torture, to me, chuck, is an american citizen on a

cellphone making a last call to his four young daughters shortly before he burns to death in the upper levels of the trade center on 9/11. waterboarding the way we did it was not torture. isis i haven't seen waterboard anybody they just their heads off. >> last week a high ranking united states officials called the techniques a violation of human rights law. >> i have little respect for the united nations or this individual who zrnt a clue and has no responsibility for safe guarding this nation going after the bastards. >> do you think the president should issue a pardon.

>> no pardon needed. no crime is committed. >> joining us now author and ambassador glad to have you with us. >> nice to be with you. >> dick cheney is clearly playing on the emotions of the american people, of course the country wanted restitution and reven revenge, his best talking point is how we should feel after we got hit on 9/11. how do you think the rest of the world is viewing these comments from cheney? >> i think his comments are useful in the event anybody wants to mount a prosecution against him. my sense is his bluff ought to be called. there will be a republican congress next year. one thing he's said repeatedly was that the report was a democratic report and nobody was questioned. i would like to see him under

oath in front of the senate intelligence committee where he could be subjected to cross examination, i doubt he would do it, but i still think his bluff ought to be called. with respect to the international community, when you regard them with the disdaine that he regards them with, certainly i think you will see them regard us in the same way. >> it seems he has no respect for any collection of countries that want to achieve certain goals on this globe. no respect for u.n., league of nations, you name it, it's our way or the highway, moving forward, do you think this country has to make a distinction between what is right and wrong morally if we're going to gain allies in future

conflicts which obviously will take place because of what we're dealing with with isis right now. >> when it comes to torture, looking at revolutionary war when president declined torture on mercanaries. they banned torture 35 years ago. what you have in the cheney-bush administration you have an abboration. we coauthored treaties such as the geneva convention and u.n. convention against torture. >> your wife was outed by the president and now he's saying he has no problem with torture. how do you feel about that? i mean isn't torture what you're family went through?

>> well, i wouldn't characterize it as that. what i would say is that, what the vice president also said is that the release of this report characterizing their misdeeds would make it more difficult for us to recruit agents in the future. that's absolutely not the case. what makes it more difficult is what cheney it, cheney and liby and addington and everybody did, we trained the identity of a covert officer. how do you trust an administration that will betray one of its own for political reasons. >> the vice president continually says they were on solid legal ground and now we know president bush knew of the techniques, that's being verified by former administration officials. the legal authority, people may be wondering what that is. correct me if i'm wrong, he keeps quoting the justice

department, head was john ashcroft, this is who he's quoting, correct? >> i think it is even worse than that, the attorney general and his deputy refused to give the cia a blanket indemnity for the techniques they were going to use so they went to middle level officers and got them to sign off on it. >> when asked about the 26 individuals wrongfully detained cheney said he has no problem with it as long as the country achieves its objectives. is this the new standard? >> again, i think mr. cheney speaks the more he opens himself up to international prosecution if not domestic prosecution and i do believe the justice department ought to reopen investigations into everything these people did.

they really made us a much less safe country in addition to the moral interprterpitude that is r hands. >> let's take one of their best comments for defense on all this. they claim in the senate report that key players were not interviewed. i guess when i hear dick cheney talk i'm thinking they knew what he was going to say, why talk to him. are there people that should have been to your knowledge should have been vetted before this report? how credible is it? how detailed is it? are you satisfied are you? i want you to expound on all that. >> first of all i think it would be appropriate to release many more of the materials that the senate intelligence committee collected. several tens of thousands pages have been classified.

when this is party of the history of the country. rather than sources and methods. i think they should release a lot more of it as was suggested yesterday. with respect to what mr. cheney and a lot of the other republican hacks have been saying over the weekend, that nobody had been consulted, again the republicans will take over the congress in the senate in january, they will chair the senate intelligence committee. i would suggest that they might make that right by calling all these people up and questioning them under oath and subjecting them to cross examination. and finally with respect to mr. cheney, i believe his actions and the actions of his office in pressuring the cia and justice department constitute if not treason certainly a violation of the security of our country. >> finally, why do you think

dick cheney is doing this? >> i think the best defense is a good offense. i think he is challenging both the administration and international community to call his bluff and i believe they should and once they do you can see him ducking behind executive privilege much in the case as we tried to bring against the white house in the betrayal of my wife's identity as a covert officer. >> all right. than thanks for being with us. coming up, the price of oil fell below $60 a barrel, also a pretty good deal on barrels.

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look at monday. crude oil prices fell nearly $2 today, to close at $55.91 a barrel, the weakest level since may of 2009. opec has refused to cut production despite a glut of global supplies. and consumers are seeing good things happen at the gas pump. the prices have dropped to a five-year low. according to aaa, the national average for a gallon of gas is $2.55. i got it for $2.33, saw that, boom, i was in there. north american energy ministers are meeting in washington today to discuss the keystone xl pipeline and falling oil prices. opponents of the pipeline are also waiting to hear from the nebraska state supreme court. the court is deciding whether transcanada's methods of obtaining land rights for the proposed route were constitutional. a ruling could come by the end of the week. extracting the oil is difficult

and expensive. to put it simply, prices need to be high to make an extra effort profitable. with an abundance of oil on the mark and prices this low, there's no need to build or drill the keystone xl. joining me tonight, tax specialist and columnist. and also the senior vice president of government affairs for the league of conservation voters. david, you first, what are the market forces going to do to all this pipeline talk? we're supposed to be in the 11th hour of a decision here, and i think most folks will say, why do we need it if prices are what they are? your thoughts? >> the canadians are in this for the long haul, ed. prices are going to go lower than they are now. experting say $40 a barrel. but they'll also go back up. right now, everybody who can buy oil and store it is doing it. i'm sure the airlines are trying to get what they can.

this may delay the keystone pipeline, might kill it. but the canadians want all the foreign money from selling to our country so they'll not walk away from this unless prices stay low for a long time. and i think that's unlikely. >> my question was going to be, when do you think they're going to bounce back? we have this effort for green technology in america, unlike other dips in the past, how would this be any different? >> well, we've seen oil prices be very volatile now for the last 40 years, because most oil is sold in spot, markets, not long-term contracts. it wasn't that long ago, we had $10 a barrel oil, that's $25 in today's money. so we will see changes. this will clearly slow down the fracking business, because costs there are relatively high, in

the neighborhood of 70, $80 a barrel to justify any new investment. >> how do you view this? is this good news for pipeline opponents? >> hi, ed, i would say this is absolutely good news. we've long known that keystone xl is bad for climate change, bad for water, a bad deal for the american people all around. it's all risk and no reward, except to pad the profits of a foreign oil company. and as you know, with oil prices plummeting, that's now in question. so we are more confident than ever that this dirty and dangerous pipeline is never going to be built. >> if the ruling comes down from the nebraska supreme court, favorable for transcanada, what would be the timeline be? there would be no reason for the president not to make a ruling once the supreme court rules this week. >> could be this friday, any friday to come. we think, regardless of that decision, we're optimistic it will go in favor of the land owners. but regardless, the facts remain the same.

it's the dirtiest oil on the planet. as president obama continues to express his concerns about the pipeline and the lack of benefits, again, we're more confident than ever, and we would love to see a decision as soon as possible. secretary kerry said he'd like to see one sooner rather than later. we continue to believe that president obama and secretary kerry have all the information they need to reject this pipeline today and of course the fact that even the markets have moved on, that it's just radical republicans in congress at this point who are really so obsessed with the pipeline, makes us even more confident. >> who are the winners in this economy? i pulled in at the pump at $2.33 a gallon, i felt like a winner. we've added big jobs in the last month. where is this going to go? >> i think this will be very good for job growth. lower income americans spend a larger share of their incomes on gasoline. this will be very good for them. those companies that make products in the u.s. that depend on oil feed stocks and natural

gas feed stocks are going to enjoy lower prices that allow them to improve their margins. that may result in more investment and more jobs. the chinese are buying up every bit of oil they can. they've sent the price of tankers through the roof. it's roughly quadrupled, but teern an is quite right, the underlying issue to keep in mind here, that low oil prices have other affeceffects. it's dirty oil, not only that, but they discourage wind, solar, and they discourage more efforts to reduce energy consumption. what abo >> what about that? >> we need to transition to a clean energy economy. part of the reason that we're seeing oil prices lower, the obama administration has done a lot to increase fuel economy for cars. there's been so much progress made and we need to continue that progress. we need to rely on american ingenuity and continue that

transition. >> just seems to me, we're putting so much oil on the market, how could that not affect the price globally? so it's a different dynamic pray playing out in front of us. great to have you with us. appreciate your time. that's "the ed show." "politicsnation" with reverend al sharpton starts right now. good evening, rev. >> good evening, ed, and thanks to you for tuning in. we start with breaking news on the siege in sydney. a 16-hour stand-off with a gunman holding 17 hostages in a cafe in australia's largest city. finally ending this morning in a hail of gunfire. [ gunfire ] here's what we know right now. police say two of the hostages are dead. and that the gunman was killed in the raid. they say they srm