raising the questions of fairness, need to ask themselves, the people young and old, the people of all races, are saying that the system is broken in terms of fair and impartial review of cases. then something must be wrong. what would make people across these lines march? the answer is, we need change. thanks for watching. i'm al sharpton. "hardball" starts right now. >> dick cheney, i'd do it again. let's play "hardball." ♪ ♪ >> good evening, i'm chris matthews in washington. dick cheney could write the book on torture made morally easy. i'd do it again in a minute he said on sunday and that's how long it took him to decide. and as cheney puts it, the torture program, as he calls it, was all his. it was all i was prepared to, and we did it, we got the

authorization from the president and authorization from the justice department to go forward with the program. it worked. oh, but don't anybody say w. was the boy with the dirty work. the water boording and the rest of it from the beginning. that's a lie, cheney said, the president was in on it big time. this man knew what they were doing. sounds like bill clinton saying he was not having sex with "that woman." he wants full credit, doesn't want george bush getting off easy. may have been mr. peabody. i want to go to ron christie here. how do you explain the pride, the self-respect with which the former vice-president takes personal responsibility for run the program of waterboarding and all the rest of it? >> good evening, chris. if you listen to what he said on

"meet the press," he takes credit for working with the president to design a program that was effective to make sure we didn't get hit again. the notion this is somehow dick cheney program behind the president's back is utter non-sense. those of us in the white house on 9/11, and i was there, we did everything that we could to change from a mode of domestic priorities to domestic consequences. how do we re-open new york city below 14th street? how do we get america back on its feet again? most importantly, how do we take the steps necessary to make sure this country is not attacked again? so i think what dick cheney did, it was legal, it was harsh, but it kept this country safe. >> and as we know, he was the intelligence officer for the administration. here he was describing it. i heard the word "i" and "we" here. there are two different takes on the torture techniques. on the one hand, cheney says he

has no regrets and would do it again. let's watch him on that point. >> i was prepared and we did, we got the authorization from the president and authorization from the justice department to go forward with the program. it worked. it worked now for 13 years. we've avoided another mass casualty attack against the united states. we captured bin laden and a lot of senior al qaeda guys who were responsible for that attack on 9/11. i'd do did again in a minute. >> he took credit. but john mccain who spent five and a half years as a p.o.w. in vietnam where he was tortured, said the use of torture is morally wrong. let's watch the man who was tortured. >> there were violations of the geneva conventions for the treatment of prisoners. there were violations of the convention against torture, which ronald reagan was the primary signatory of it and i think in retrospect, some of

these practices fly in the face of everything that america values and stands for. >> i was struck, david, by the amount to which cheney basically said, i did, and we did, and we got it authorized by the president, but i was running the intelligence program, i was doing this. >> well, also, it indicated to me, what he said throughout the interview, he didn't know about it in certain ways. he said a lot of things were just wrong. he said it worked, it worked, it worked. the report comes up with numerous instances where it doesn't work. and they had a great case that chuck todd asked him about, in which the cia according to his own memos, told dick cheney that they used intelligence from torture to help stop the dirty bomb plot here in d.c. and their own records show that they didn't use intelligence for that. so dick cheney himself was lied to. now chuck asked him, does this mean you were misled? and he said, i wasn't. well, the question is, how does

he know? did he go back and look at the intelligence and evaluate it himself? he's just out there saying things that are assertions, not facts, not citing any record or evidence to what's in this report. when it comes to whether it's moral or not, that's a matter of taste and one's own individual morality. but this report shows it didn't do what dick cheney said it did. >> let's watch the two who know about it. mccain and cheney. they disagree about what the tactics used amounted to torture. here's senator mccain, followed by the vice president. >> you can't claim that tying someone to the floor and have them freeze to death is not torture. you can't say 183 times someone is waterboarded, and by the way, on waterboarding, it began with the spanish inc zition. it was done during the philippines war. we've tried and hung japanese

war criminals for waterboarding americans in world war ii. >> according to cheney, nothing we did to the detainees added up to torture. chuck todd went through some of the harsher techniques mentioned in the report . >> spent 11 days, two hours, in a coffin-sized box, 21 inches, 2.5 feet. that's on page 42. >> i think that -- >> is that going to meet the standard of torture? >> i think that was one of the approved techniques. >> if another country captures a u.s. soldier, the iranian regime, waterboards, is it going to be accepted? >> you're trying to come up now with hypothetical situations. waterboarding, the way we did it, was not torture. >> cheney named only one example of torture when asked by chuck. let's listen. >> torture to me, chuck, is an

american citizen on a cell phone making a last call to his four young daughters shortly before he burns to death in the upper levels of the trade center in new york city on 9/11. >> ron, good point. everybody here thought that was a good point he made. explikate how that relates to this question of whether or not we should have a program which many people believe it's torture. >> i don't have tears for terrorists. i have tears for friends i lost on 9/11. i have tears for the families who are going through pain to this very day. if you look at what the white house did with george w. bush in the lead here, he made a determination to go into the justice department, that these techniques were legal. they were harsh, but they were legal. the cia suspended the program twice, they said we need to make sure that we're doing this in the way that it's proper and in fitting with the way the united states treats detainees. this report is the most

one-sided, flawed report that could have been published in "rolling stone" magazine. they interviewed not one single officer. they didn't interview rodriguez who ran the program for the cia. they didn't interview any of the directors. so for this notion, as david says, it's in the torture report. what's tortured is that feinstein has made a mockery to her legacy of not getting the facts out, taking no one's opinion other than -- [ all speak at once ] >> let me ask you the one point. i want to know if it's true or not. is it true that the justice department approved this program? >> yes. the justice department -- >> i thought it was the office of legal counsel. >> if you read it, it's a very interesting report by the last three cia directors and the deputy directors that was published in the "wall street journal" last week. they make the notation that the cia had gone to ask for legal

opinion. the cia was cleared by the justice department to use these techniques. >> having cia directors say that we did nothing wrong, isn't probative in this debate. of course they believe they did nothing wrong. the investigation was launched on a 14-1 bipartisan vote by the senate intelligence committee. the report was approved for release on a bipartisan vote. the report itself comes up with numerous instances when the cia misrepresented to the office of legal counsel what it was doing and the results it was getting. so it calls into question this whole idea that it was approved to begin with. jonathan and the vice president he worked for, seemed to be hiding behind the fact, it can't be torture if it was approved by the justice department. well, it can be. it doesn't mean that the justice department was right. if you approve of something, that according to the geneva conventions and the long history we've had over hundreds of

years, is torture, just because the justice department said you can do it -- >> but you're protected from prosecution? >> that's another issue. that might be an excuse. let me finish, jonathan -- >> jonathan? >> you know who you're talking to, i hope. >> it's not -- it doesn't get rid of the fact that by most definitions that have been used by many countries and international bodies for decades, if not centuries, waterboarding remains torture -- >> let me ask ron, do you think the geneva conventions apply? >> no. these are enemy combatants. they're not wearing a uniform of any particular country. so the geneva conventions do not apply. but i don't believe we're talking about waterboarding here. david keeps going back to the senate report, the report. the facts are, again, they didn't interview a single officer of the cia. they did not interview the person who ran the program.

>> i'm not an expert. i don't like cheney and many of the things he does. but i believe people who have been in service and fought in combat, their arguments is the geneva conventions is for our fighting force, in combat, between combatting sides. isn't that their argument for the geneva convention's self-interest? i thought that was, ron. >> i agree with you on this point, chris. but what we're not dealing with is the fact that these enemy combatants are not part of a country. they didn't sign up to the geneva convention. therefore, they're not bound and obligated to follow it. >> but we did. >> we're getting argumentive. let's go to "meet the press." here's dick cheney saying he had no regrets about iraq. people say cheney was back to his sunday show stomping grounds where in 2002 and 2003 he put out things that turned out to be false to gin up the war. let's watch the appearance of him on this program over the years. i think it's illustrative of his

truth. >> he has indeed stepped up his capacity to produce and deliver biological weapons, that he has reconstituted his nuclear program, to develop a nuclear weapon. that there are efforts under way inside iraq to significantly expand his capability. there's a story in "the new york times" this morning, and i want to attribute to the "times" in fact, that he has been seeking to acquire and we have been able to intercept him from acquiring the kind of tubes that are necessary to build a centrifuge. we know he's devoted to acquiring weapons and we believe he has reconstituted nuclear weapons. we spent time looking at that relationship between iraq and al qaeda, and there has been reporting that suggests that there have been a number of contacts over the years. learned more and more that there was a relationship between iraq

and al qaeda that stretched back through most of the decade of the '90s. the iraqis providing bomb-making expertise and advice to the al qaeda organization. >> do you think the american people are prepared for a long, costly, and bloody battle with significant american casualties? >> i don't think it's likely to unfold that way, tim. because i believe we'll be greeted as liberators. >> you know, everything he said was wrong. and much of what he said there was already proven wrong or in question within the intelligence community. dick cheney in some ways has set a world record for big lies on "meet the press," certainly about the subject of the iraq war. in saying that al qaeda and saddam hussein had a relationship. the 9/11 commission came out, no operational relationship. the institute for defense analyses which is a think-tank of the pentagon, looks at half a million documents of captured

iraqi documents, nothing, no connection whatsoever. he said things again and again, even things that he was warned by intelligence experts within his own administration not to say, that there was no real validity to this reporting. yet he said it again and again, just as he said it again this sunday, that this was a connection between al qaeda and saddam hussein. just as he said torture works. the bottom line is, at what point do we look at dick chainy and say, he's not to be taken seriously. >> respond to that, ron. >> and my response to that, he was the greatest vice president in the history of the united states. i was there on september 11th, i was there in the hours and the weeks and the months afterwards. and dick cheney, along with thousands of people led by george w. bush did everything in their power to keep this country safe and make sure we didn't get attacked again. and we didn't. god bless the people who are willing to put their lives on the line and make sure that's the case. were there mistakes made? absolutely there were. looking in the rearview mirror,

12 years later, maybe we shouldn't have done? absolutely. but to equate dick cheney to lying and doing everything he could to protect this country, i think it's insult and a disservice for those who serve this country. >> let me ask you a question, ron, as an american citizen and viewer of public affairs. do you think we were right to go to the iraq war? wage war on that country? >> do i think at the time, the actually intelligence -- >> were we right, given the evidence we had? not arguments, but evidence. >> i think in looking at what george w. bush looked at from the intelligence, he felt he had the necessary information to go to war with iraq. he did not at the time take the country to war based on faulty intelligence at that time. >> did you believe he was right? >> did i believe he was right at the time? i did, sure. >> do you believe he was right? >> at the time i did, sure. if you ask him, he'll say to himself the mistakes were made. >> i don't think he's taken back the war yet.

let me just make one point. greeted at liberators, that was a dream and it didn't happen. secondly, that there wouldn't be any casualties, i think that was malarkey from day one. it was going to be a war and people were going to get killed. if not in the initial incidents, they were going to get killed. they were going to fight us. anybody would have known that. that's irresponsible of cheney. facts, particular little things, how about having a nuclear program? he should have known they had one, he said he knew and he did not know. we have to be careful in believing this man. anyway, thank you for your strong defense of the former vice president. >> always a pleasure. coming up, elizabeth warren is at war with wall street, as we all know, and the white house. she led the fight against that big spending bill and accused citigroup of holding the government hostage. she may be the hero of the

progressive left of the democratic party and a lot of other people. this is "hardball," the place for politics. hey! so i'm looking at my bill, and my fico® credit score's on here. we give you your fico® score each month for free! awesomesauce! wow! the only person i know that says that is...lisa? julie?! at discover, we treat you like you'd treat you. get the it card and see your fico® credit score. wow! [ narrator ] on a mission to get richard to his campbell's chunky soup. it's new chunky beer-n-cheese with beef and bacon soup. i love it.

and mama loves you. ♪ as we watch the emergence of senator elizabeth warren as a possible 2016 candidate, jeb bush looks like he's in for sure. today he spoke in south carolina, the third state on the presidential primary calendar. also releasing 250,000 emails from his days as governor. both moves are a signal to republican donors, he's ready to run. we'll be right back.

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the ultimate arena for business. hour after hour of diving deep, touching base, and putting ducks in rows. the only problem with conference calls: eventually they have to end. unless you have the comcast business voiceedge mobile app. it lets you switch seamlessly from your desk phone to your mobile with no interruptions. i've never felt so alive. get the future of phone and the phones are free. comcast business. built for business. welcome back to "hardball." last week massachusetts senator and progressive icon elizabeth warren rallied democrats in congress to oppose a big spending deal to keep the government open because it contained a provision that the senator says weakens wall street reform. on friday night at a key moment

of exposure in negotiations to keep the government running warren gave an impassioned and i thought brilliant primetime speech on the senate floor. and the bank busting name of elizabeth warren took direct aim at her enemy, the big wall street bank citigroup. >> you know, there's a lot of talk lately about how dodd-frank isn't perfect. there's a lot of talk coming from citigroup about how dodd-frank isn't perfect. so let me say this to anyone who is listening at citi. i agree with you. dodd-frank isn't perfect. it should have broken you into pieces. >> wow. you don't hear people talk like that. the effort to defeat the spending package failed ultimately, but her to stock among progressives is on the rise. it's sky rocketing right now. the idea of warren running for president is being pushed by

many in the democratic wing of the democratic party, certainly because of her crusade against wall street. ben wick ler of move on.org said over the weekend that 2016 is warren's time. here he is. >> so much of politics is about a person meeting a moment. this is elizabeth warren's moment. the defining fight in american politics right now is about soaring inequality in a system where wall street and special interests can write the rules to benefit themselves. that's the defining fight of elizabeth warren's life. she was made for this moment in american history. and that's why wherever she goes in the country, she brings giant crowds to their feet. we need her in this presidential race. we think it will make whoever the nominee is, stronger, and we think she'd be an amazing president. >> i think his motives are a little different, maybe a little more left-leaning.

thank you both for joining us. i want you to start because you're a reigning politician. first of all, i think you can be a really great senator for life and do great things, like phil hart did years ago. the greatest work he did on consumer everything. you don't have to be president to get great things done. but explain to me what looks to be your root. what does she do if she doesn't stay in the senate? >> i want to go back to that phil hart thing and what you were saying about this speech. it was a brilliant speech. and hart, as you may know, was a trust buster. and here we have elizabeth warren reviving trust busting. naming names, naming citigroup, talking about the individuals within citigroup who have too much political power, and that just struck an incredible nerve. you've seen twitter on fire. people are -- they're waiting for people to tell this kind of truth. >> tell me why it's not

conspiratorial sounding to say that jack lew, who is clean as a whistle, the cleanest guy i've ever met in politics, not that i have to defend him, and these other people who worked in the past for citigroup, the fact that they were able to get jobs in the treasury, department, is a bad thing. it sounded like a moral argument she was making. >> it's a moral argument about citigroup having too much power. so it's not any one individual. it's new machine politics, except the machine politics is coming from wall street. and we saw in that bill, 70 of the words that citigroup wanted in there, were -- or 70 lines. >> i'm with you 100% on that. when it comes to writing bills, howard, you know -- i want howard to get in here. this idea that people don't realize that lobbyists working for corporations, big brand names, sit with members of committees, like banking committee and actually write the freaking bill. they write it!

>> of course in the old days -- >> and then they sign it. >> in the old days, this used to happen all the time very openly. but we like to think in recent decades we've become, as they say, more transparent and cleaner. well, whatever thoughts we may have had about that are completely undercut by the way this happens. so there's the big substantive argument that zephyr is talking about, but there's also the way it happened. the unseemliness of it happening at the very last minute with the citigroup guys writing the bill and turning it over to the be ms. >> or the government shouldn't move. >> yeah. >> i want to get on the point of timing. here's senator warren going after the obama administration for tapping wall street bankers in work in the government. here she is laying out the list of evil as i heard it. sounds pretty scary. here she is. >> enough is enough. enough is enough with wall street insiders getting key

position after key position and the kind of cronyism that we have seen in the executive branch. >> let's talk timing here. you're thinking about politics. my friend also from massachusetts once said, there's a galloping horse of history that rides by sometime in your life, if you're a politician. you either get on that horse or you don't. >> and this is an absolute flash moment. you have populism. you have this sort of sleeping giant of populism. i'd even connect it to what's happening in the streets of new york and around the country, where you have people who are connecting to what's happened with eric garner and ferguson, to wall street. >> what's the connection? >> the most popular tweet was about how if you sell loose cigarettes, you get killed, but if you sell fraudulent mortgages, you end up with a bonus. >> two wrongs don't make a right. i see no connection between selling lucys on the street corner. you're a powerful mind to put those two together.

what's the connection? >> what you see and actually it's a real interesting and powerful analysis on the streets now in response to garner. people talking about the ways in which the big banks robbed wealth of all of america -- >> and that's bad. >> right. >> why do you have to compare it to lucys? >> i think we have elizabeth warren who is standing up for the little guy and this huge class divide, and the banks are the leaders in this class divide. in 2008, they wrecked the economy and now they're more concentrated than ever. this is not a left-right issue. this is deeply american populist and anti-trust issue. i love it that she brought up teddy roosevelt. we have a teddy roosevelt moment again. >> howard? >> i think the streets are important, but i think this is also a middle class issue. not that those two are mutually exclusive, but basically for the last 30 years, middle class families have seen a complete

stagnation of their progress in terms of wages and real income. if somebody like elizabeth warren can tie that phenomenon and the super wealthy, growth of the super wealthy, to the notion that there's too much control by money, not just wall street, with you big money in the whole political system, that's very powerful. in certain respects, i think this issue is the iraq, within the democratic party, talking about the iraq war earlier. zephyr talked about the 80 evil words they inserted into the bill. it reminds me of the original authorization for use of military force and the sort of original sin that led to the iraq war. barack obama got inside position on hillary clinton in 2007. in 2002 originally and then 2007 by being opposed to the iraq war. elizabeth warren, or anybody else who follows her along this path will be trying to get inside position against hillary clinton again.

this time not on the iraq war, but this time on the issue of the influence of money in politics, resulting in an unfair society. if you just talk about the unfair political system, you get lost in the weeds. if you talk about the streets, frankly you're going to get lost in the weeds. but if you tie the control of money and power to the failure of the middle class to advance, that is a very, very powerful argument. >> and that's what the democrats did not have in 2014, a reason too be. zephyr, great to have you on the program. thanks so much. and i think the use of brand names is so american. don't speak in terms of generics. say citigroup -- >> exactly. >> and say elizabeth warren. these are brands now. and one's going up and one's having a long week. still ahead, the fear of lone wolf attacks in australia. a man held hostages in a cafe. this is "hardball," the place

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♪ [ applause ] >> ha! >> the senate report shows that the cia paid two psychologists $80 million to design the torture program. $80 million? were they waterboarding with pell greeno? also, you don't have to use torture to get them to admit stuff. just get them really drunk and log them into facebook. it worked on my ex-. that's how i found out my son's real father is a denver nugget. time now for the side show. that was "snl" on the role that two psychologists played in designing the torture techniques. here's how "saturday night live" portrayed their reaction to the recent attention. >> now, you two were the architects for this entire cia program. >> correct.

we were hired as consultants and helped create it. >> all the torture techniques we've been reading about, that was you guys? >> well, it was a team effort, obviously. there's no "i" in torture. >> there are eyes sometimes. >> when people say torture, they think of a guy chained to a wall naked in a cold, dark room. >> and a torturer with a black hood on. >> don't get me wrong, we use hoods. >> yeah, you got to. >> after all, there's more than one way to skin a cat. >> in fact, we know the exact number. it's 19. >> still ahead, republicans have had it with ted cruz. that's coming up with the roundtable later. this is "hardball," the place for politics, where you'll hear the debate. wellllll... ♪ ♪ earlyfit ♪ latefit ♪ risefit ♪ fallfit ♪ ballfit ♪ wallfit ♪ pingfit ♪ pongfit ♪ pingfit ♪ pongfit ♪ rowfit ♪ throwfit ♪ slowfit ♪ olliefit ♪ oopsfit ♪ otisfit ♪ thiswayfit ♪ thatwayfit ♪ daddyfit ♪ pappyfit ♪ datefit ♪ weightfit

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>> police in pennsylvania are on the runt for a man wanted in the shooting deaths of six people. the suspect is considered armed and dangerous. bill cosby's wife defending

her husband amid the allegations of sexual assault. she calls him kind, generous, funny, and a wonderful husband. cosby's attorney has denied the accusations. the senate has confirmed dr. vivek murthy to be the next surgeon general. his nomination has been waiting approval for more than one year. now back to "hardball." [ gunfire ] >> welcome back to "hardball." a dramatic and terrifying 16-hour hostage stand-off at a cafe in sydney, australia, ended today in a hail of gunfire and explosion, as you see. moments before that police siege, we saw several hostages fleeing the scene. running for their lives. it all unfolded on live television. when the gunfire stopped, the scene changed from terror to

triage. two of the 17 hostages have died. four are injured. an officer was wounded. police identified the gunman who was killed in the siege as 50-year-old man haron monis, an iranian-born radical muslim, to called himself a sheikh during the stand-off. he it several hostages bear a flag. military officials tell us there's no evidence monis had any connection to the terror group isis. monis was well known to local authorities. he was convicted of sending hate mail to the families of dead australian soldiers. he was out on bail after being charged as an accessory to his ex-wife's murder. he was also facing charges involving sex crimes. what i want to know tonight, what does this do to the american political arena? the roundtable tonight, jonathan

capehart, amanda turkel and editor at large for the atlantic, steve clemens. i always wonder how we react to something far off, another english-speaking country, and we have a fondness for australia, most of us. but what do we make of this? does it help the left or the right? >> i think it helps the right, because it makes everyone concerned about what might happen on their street corner in their local mall. this is the kind of act al qaeda couldn't do. they didn't go after small targets like this. when isis sent out signals all around the world, saying, people, pick up a knife and go kill someone. and you see someone who may be mentally unhinged do that, that sends the kind of fear everywhere that met afticizes in every corner of western democracy. >> you don't need isis and the territory they've grabbed. all you need is somebody with a website to issue these semi-

fatwas. what do you make of it? >> it creates a sense of anxiety around the world, which often tends to reward hawkish responses. we saw this in the 2014 elections with ebola. you had people saying, we need to have a travel ban. the public was concerned. then once the elections were over, concern about ebola disappeared. >> it's not like you have -- remember how w. built-up saddam hussein as the new hitler. who is it now? baghdadi over there? >> i think what's different between what's happening in australia and what we're talking about now is that what happened in australia has not happened here yet. i also think -- >> well, ft. hood. >> it happened in ottawa, canada. what i mean is, if something like this happens at ft. hood, a military installation, a government building, people can rationalize and think, that's a terror target. we know the terrorists would probably go there. but what happened in australia,

happened in a candy shop. an ordinary place where regular people, ordinary people gather. for something like that to happen, the hostages who were killed, the ones who were able to escape, they were terrorized. but that entire nation was terrorized. >> but essentially, how different is when somebody goes nuts and starts shooting in school or at his job? this is a difficult time to live. there's a lot of stress in our society. marriages go bad. jobs go bad. people's lives turn upside down and for the worse. they get a gun and start doing stuff. how is this connected with the islamist problem we're facing in the world? >> we had six people killed today in pennsylvania in another tragic horrific act. if that person seems to be on the loose had waved an islamic flag, that too would have achieved the attention of the world. but things that are not

connected to this, i think what people feel is, something bad is going on abroad. we see people being beheaded. that is animated fear here -- >> is it personal fear? >> in a way, because i pay a lot of attention to poll numbers. when the president was about to attack syria over its chemical weapons programs, no support to do that. now when you look at the support after the beheading of journalists and others by isis, you have enormous support to go in and do something. there's fear about that kind of brutal brutality and horror that they're seeing on tv and over their twitter accounts. >> a lot of violence in this country, and i just wonder why this isolated thing would seem a threat to us over here. anyway, some hawks jumped on the crisis. including republican congressman peter king of new york. here's king earlier today on fox. >> what we saw today is the changing face of terrorism and the new threat from terrorism.

it's a real challenge to police and law enforcement because there has to be intense scrutiny and surveillance and looking for any possible indicators of someone who could act like this. you have groups attacking the police, who they feel is too much activity. the fact is, the threat is real. >> is that hyping it? >> okay, i am loathe to agree with congressman king on anything. but i will agree with him on half of what he said. we would make a mistake if we did not -- if we did not fear a lone wolf. that's what the australian authorities were saying about this guy in australia, that he was a lone wolf. and we've known since 2009 when the report came out, from the department of homeland security, that that was the number one concern of homeland security, and everyone else in the bush administration -- >> self-generated terrorism? >> right. home-grown terrorism --

>> and not sleeper cells? >> not sleeper cells -- >> can i be the voice of reserve and play cronkite here for a second? which is one person acting alone, a lone wolf, is only capable of doing so much. they can maybe do a dirty bomb. they can't create a nuclear bomb. isn't there a limit on their ability? >> what pete king would like in response to this is completely out of pro portion. he is supported profiling of muslim organizations. many australians said, we don't blame the minimum community. so i think he's using this to raise awareness to his issues. >> my friend and colleague peter bergen would say al qaeda is not going to bomb the pentagon city mall. it's not big enough for them. it's not what they do. now we're in a time where terrorists will try and animate that lone wolf and trigger that lone wolf to bomb the local mall

or coffee shop. >> i think this guy has a lot more motive than religion driving him and he found a way to express himself as he died. up next, something more happy. politics in this country, republicans are growing increasingly tired of ted cruz. let's talk about ted cruz and his worst weekend ever. this is the place for politics. ♪ music

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where he're we're back. disparaging him on the record by

name. and, for attributions, generally avoid. but cruz has pushed his fellow republicans to the limit. bob corker put out a statement calling cruz's actions unexplainable. you should have a an ebd e end goal in site. >> and jennifer rubin writes unsparing writing, "cruz can annoy and grand stand, but he no longer will affect outcomes of legislative rights, fights and his reputation of a show boating dilettante is cemented." out going senate majority leader harry reid a win to 24 president obama's nominees. i'm back now at the round table. amanda, the beauty of this guy screwing up this weekend by

accounting for some attempt to shut down the government or whatever he's up to, this big bill, this big spending bill, he delayed adjournment for the weekend so the democrats could spend the whole weekend, and, again, today, getting through nominations. he's worse than useless. he's a problem. >> it's like he's a secret democrat or something. this was a huge christmas gift to president obama. harry reid thought he could get maybe 12 nominees through. now, because of ted cruz, he's going to get double that. >> what a balloon head. >> and mitch mcconnell recognizes why he's so happy he had this deal to adjourn with. they would come back monday and pass the spending bill. after he left, ted cruz blew all of that up. >> i want to ask you, i know this guy. i want to know this. how come elizabeth warren, in failing to topple this big bill, comes out as a shooting star, at least rooigt noight now, a come political galaxy. this other guy looks like a big zero. >> because elizabeth warren is

still out there doing deals, basically, is amicable and even among her rivals, is respected in life. she treats them with respect. ted cruz goes arnoound denigratg everybody. we may be trying to nail the coffin in ted cruz's political fuel kwhu future, but he is saying he is the purist, he is the ideological crew saider. ron paul did a lot better in getting 25% at one point, and people didn't think that was possible. i don't think he can win. but the point is, he's not playing to the audience that wants to see cooperation. >> is this going the presidency or is it something -- >> all right, loaded term, demagogue ri. he was probably more infamous, more powerful than ever. he had a lot of power. >> look, as long as people talk about ted cruz as someone who

might run for president, could have run for president, that's good for him. and i agree with steve. ted cruz is not playing to the 99 other people in that um e upper chamber. he couldn't care less about them. that's why we saw what we saw this past weekend. >> he's van ackerman advising consent. he winds up absolutely shunned. >> he doesn't care about legislative outcomes now. he cares about the epd of the day. that he stands mr pure, more strong, more tall fighting the corruption of washington than any other single ledge slay torl in this town. >> and that's the difference with elizabeth warren. she was not willing to shut down the government. she raised attention to this wall street deal that people didn't know about. but at the end of the day, she was willing to step back and let it go forward. >> did she step back? >> she voted against it. but she did not want to shut the government down. >> wow. well, that's a good dople ganger for her. >

a any. anyway, thank you. amanda, welcome to the show and steve clemens, who's on every time i turn on the tv. you're watching "hardball," the place for politics. the place for politics. and unlocks the door when i forget my keys... it's just that... i feel like he's always watching us. yes, that is why we should use wink. ...look, it can monitor and manage our house but it won't start to develop human emotions. hey buddy. control your entire home with one simple app introducing wink it's like a robot butler, but not as awkward.

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let me finish tonight with this wide open debate. we as a country ought to be glad

we're debating this thing. the good thing about the back and forth between senator john mccain and dick cheney is both of them know, firsthand, what they're talking about. mccain was tortured, cheney ordered mentortured. one man was tortured in vietnam. a little boy thrown in prison and treated to the limits of his capt captor's brutality. dick cheney, on the other side of the torture experience, offers himself an equally, if not greater degree, self of approval. i'd do it again in a minute. if he made a few mistakes, he said, went a little too far, all of that was covered by the need itself. says who? cheney dares to ask, says me. i don't think this dual with john mccain will serve the former v.p. well. long have we honored the soldier, including the men who suffered captivity.

but, please, tell me, when in history has the public sought credit for, even when he quibbles over the language being a torturer. that's hard"hardball" for now. thanks for being with us. "all in" starts right now. >> tonight on "all in." sydney police and a 16 hour hostage siege with a hail of gunfire. tonight, what we know about the man behind it all. then -- >> they report torture, but we fall short of that definition. >> former guantanamo prosecutor on dick cheney's definition of torture. plus -- >> we ain't going to stop till people are free. >> the black lives matter protests continue online, in the streets and at sporting events. the cleveland police union calls