catholic, but he's willing to walk that edge and test the limits and see where can they go with this? >> we're going to miss him. thank you very much for joining us tonight. he's up next. bush 3. let's play "hardball." ♪ ♪ >> good evening, i'm chris mathis in washington. suddenly the 2016 presidential election campaign is under way. jeb bush is in the race for president. while the other hopefuls are milling around and talking up their chances and selling themselves, the former florida governor has entered the starting gate. his ears perked for the starting gun. this is a game-changer today. and declaring that he will actively explore a presidential run he's made himself the third bush to put himself in line for the presidency.

the only thing keeping him from the white house now is a candidate who's not yet entered the race, either another republican or democrat hillary clinton. a number of the potential republicans may have been scratched from the race by the mere fact of jeb bush entering it today. i think of mitt romney whose best argument for running was if jeb decided not to. same for chris christie who has enough baggage from the bridge mischief. the announcement today jeb bush has taken a first step gives this race a shape it doesn't have just yesterday. it's now bush against the hard right. and a bush in the race ahead of a clinton. michael steele and joan walsh, both are msnbc political analysts. i want you both to talk about analysis first and then attitude.

i'll start with joan now that you said yes. >> thanks, joan. >> when you look at this as a person who studies politics and has a view, what do you see happening because of this pretty much statement i'm running for president today out of nowhere it came? >> obviously he's trying to line up big donors behind him. there's been a lot of talk about the donors want to coalesce around someone. they don't want mitt to run against jeb against christie. he's stepped out, not waiting for someone to be anointed. so that's one thing. i this really does make it almost impossible for rubio to run, or certainly to win, or to run incredibly. jeb is leading him in florida. you know, he's more likely to beat hillary clinton even in the state of florida. so i think this really leaves rubio in the dust. i don't know what it does to the right-wing of the party. i believe that even though he's a conservative as far as i'm concerned, he's very conservative. he's too moderate for the republican base. so i see a path for him to win

the nomination of the big party donors. winning over the base is another question. >> he certainly doesn't hate hispanics. he's married to one. he's probably the most pro-immigration guy in either party. let me ask you about the deep-down reason. we can be cynical if we want to. i don't want to be. the decision to run for president, stick your head in the furnace, going to get hit from the hard right on all kinds of reasons, his family. they'll find everything. from listening to him for years, i sort of like him. immigration is real with him. it's his family. his wife's from mexico. his kids are hispanic. he's very much in love with the his -- his panic people. education, vouchers, common core. we wants our educational system to advance people and to assimilate people.

>> he wants to shake it up. >> he wants it to be a vehicle for america to become more america. >> right. and you lay out exactly some of the motivations that have shaped, certainly since he's been governor of florida, shaped his politics over the last seven years or so. so now the test for jeb is to navigate the early and tricky waters in the conservative base. they've already started coming out. even a few weeks ago, there were folks lobbing the bombs. i think jeb bush in coming out today before christmas, has the opportunity to create a sister soldier moment in the party on those two points -- immigration and education. and personalize the narrative in a way that no republican has been able to do so far. >> why did the under-water walrus speak so quick today? [ laughter ] >> could you clarify who that i be? >> rush limbaugh. why did he feel the need to make that burping sound? he's already cooked up a conspiracy theory on why jeb is

running for president. let's listen. >> you want to know why jeb bush is thinking of running? i'll give you -- including the fact that he may actually want to be president, he may want to do this, but he's also being looked at as a saviour by the big-money donor class. and the consultant class, the establishment of the party, to head off the tea party. they're going to pull out all the stops to make sure that a tea party type conservative doesn't get the nomination. >> but why -- let me ask you a question. maybe it's too logical to ask a question about rush limbaugh except ratings or whatever. i'm not a media critic, but i don't get this guy. he's the leader of the republican party to many people's minds. rush limbaugh says there's something wrong with heading off the tea party, when everybody watching this says a tea party person cannot be elected president of the united states

against hillary clinton. somebody who buys the pile of that stuff. why would he want a tea party person to be the nominee if they will most certainly lose? why would he want that? is it better for his audience if they're really angry with hillary as president? >> i don't think anybody as any idea what that man believes deep in his soul. >> you gave him soul. >> i'm being charitable tonight. >> that's a leap of faith before christmas. >> it's the holiday season, chris. i'm feeling kind. but i don't know what he really believes, but this is the role he plays. and this is the role that he wants to play, to rile up the base, to represent the tea party wing of the party. and you know, on one thing, i hate to say t but i kind of agree with him, that jeb bush is the candidate of the desperate party donors who really don't want to see god forbid ted cruz or maybe even worse to them, a rand paul. and they really do want to head that off.

>> i would argue -- that's all true, i think. but michael, isn't he also the hope of the suburban moderate republicans who read newspapers and actually believe in a little less government than democrats? >> i think jeb touches on a number of, you know, elements in the republican party. not just, you know, the suburban moderate republican. and i think when you hear a rush limbaugh and you juxtapose it against a jeb bush, that goes to my first point. that's what he's got to navigate. >> how many states would rush limbaugh carry if he ran? >> but that's not the point. it's what a rush limbaugh can do to frame an argument that jeb bush doesn't want to make. or shouldn't have to make. so the question is, how does he get out in front of that and pull the party towards him as opposed to having it pulled away from -- >> is that smart? >> i think it's very smart. i was looking for that thing that would start this engine and change the pair dime, this is it. the other element is rand paul, another piece out there that could have an interesting

juxtaposition in terms of the base. >> i think they're the two strongest candidates right now. >> i don't know who's going to win the general election. it's two years from now. we don't know. we just don't know. but we now know that there's one guy in the race. and as they say in massachusetts politics, usually democrat politics, the shape of the field determines the victor. depends who's running. so obvious, but depends who's running. now we know he's running. means romney and rubio are probably not running. and christie with taint on him from indictments of people around him, he can't run. which means it's going to be jeb bush, in all likelihood now against somebody on the right. somebody that may not be despicable on the right. rand paul is not despicable. ted cruz fits that category. this could be interesting. >> i think certainly one way that he does win the nomination is the way mitt romney did, if a bunch of tea party folks or

right-wing folks jump in, if ted cruz and rand paul start firing at each other and rubio gets in because he's mad that this happened, you could see that right-wing base, which definitely outnumbers at this point, the jeb bush wing of the party. split the vote, circle the firing squad again and make room for another relative moderate. he's not a moderate to me. >> what do you make of the fact that, let's see, howard dean endorsing last week and al franken from minnesota, a serious legislator. he's endorsed hillary. they're not in the middle of the road. they're on the progressive side of things, both of them. the democratic wing of the democratic party, they're backing hillary. is this a way to staunch or stanch, however you pronounce it, the blood flow to elizabeth warren? are they building a case to stop that movement to warren? >> i think they are. i think they also, you know, senator franken said today he knows elizabeth warren.

he truly believes, as i do, that she doesn't want to run and she's not going to run. and so it's a way to get people to get serious about who's in the race. i don't know who else may run. and hillary clinton may well have a challenger, but i think it also means that senator franken speaks for me in a lot of ways at this point. hillary clinton is probably the most progressive person in the party who could get elected president. there may be people that are closer to us ideologically, but they would have a harder time running. >> i like the way you talk. here's al franken. he seemed almost like spencer tracy. [ laughter ] no, really he's become the eminent squeeze. here he is on msnbc today. >> i think that hillary would make a great president. i think that, you know, i'm ready for hillary. i mean, i think that we've not had someone this experienced,

this tough, and as she's very, very impressive. >> why is it smart for jeb to get in early and hillary to wait? >> well, if that was enthusiasm, okay, i'll take it. >> it was cerebral. >> oh, is that what that was? >> it was spencer tracy. >> oh, okay. but i want to pick up with -- >> i think he's very purposeful in the way he's -- >> very deliberate. >> he's not cracking jokes. >> he was very, you know, let me be careful with every word i say. i got it. but this, i want to pick up on. i want to pick up on what joan just said about hillary and her situation. the problem that hillary has right now is that, everyone wants to focus on my conservatives. my ted cruzs and all the folks on the right. she's got a similar problem on the left. as much as you can get al franken out there and others to

sort of be that progressive voice on the left, that's not necessarily reflective of hillary's base. so hillary has to navigate on the war, on wall street, just as jeb bush is going to have to navigate on education and immigration. >> you're right, michael. >> nobody's fighting with you. >> i know. but i just feel like i want to fight right now. >> oh, okay. >> merry christmas, buddy. and i do think she's got to reconcile herself with people like me on the war, and on wall street. i think you can be a moderate democrat without being in bed with wall street. but you better not be too entangled with them socially and the rest of the business. and it looks like you're showing for them if you start hanging out with them. thank you both. very smart tonight. coming up, a horrific scene in pakistan where the taliban attacked a school and killed more than 140 people, most of them children. we'll have the latest on this nightmare next. and the big debate in this

country over torture. we have new polling on what may be the biggest issue of our time -- torture. this is "hardball," the place for politics. game day communic. they're blitzing up the gut! get out of the pocket! hut! duracell quantum. lasts up to 35% longer than the competition. over 200,every year with flu hospcomplications. lysol disinfectant spray is approved to kill 80 germs, including viruses that can live on surfaces for over 4 weeks.

so help keep your family healthy with lysol. chris christie is taking a pounding on twitter because he sat at a luxury box with dallas cowboys owner jerry jones on sunday's cowboys/eagles game up in philly. christie has been under attack by eagles fans who are known to get easily riled up. one councilman called christie a creep and told him to go home. the governor took to the radio to fight back. >> this was his quote. when you're across the river from philadelphia as a neighbor, you should have a little more common sense and respect for the rest of us. i have a big nose. he's got a fat [ bleep ], it's what life deals you. >> i don't know what that has to do about whether you root for the cowboys or the eagles. and i don't know about his nose. i don't know who this guy is.

there's lots of people who attempt to use me to increase their own fame. this guy today has used me to increase his own fame. he's in newspapers all over the country. good for him. that's his job. he's got to get somebody beside his parents to know who he is. so that's good. >> that was classic christie, to go after somebody's motives. pretty restrained by his standards, some might say. we'll be right back. ♪

with kaiser permanente, you'll connect with your doctor any time, anywhere. another way care and coverage together makes life easier. ♪ become a member of kaiser permanente. because together, we thrive. ♪ welcome back to "hardball." we're learning more about that nightmarish attack on a school in pakistan today. at least seven pakistani taliban militants stormed the military-run school and killed 145 people, nearly all of them young students. as one parent described it to the associated press, my son was in uniform in the morning, he's in a casket now. my son was my dream. my dream has been killed. the taliban claimed responsibility and said it was retaliation for the military's

campaign against them, which began in the summer. in london, secretary of state john kerry condemned the attack. >> the images are absolutely gut-wrenching. young children carried away in ambulances, a teacher burned alive in front of the students. a house of learning turned into a house of unspeakable horror. prime minister shareef said, these are my children, it is my loss. well, this morning, wherever you live, wherever you are, those are our children. and this is the world's loss. >> president obama said in a statement, our hearts and prayers go out to the victims, their families, and loved ones. by targeting students and teachers in this heinous attack, terrorists have once again shown their depravity. we stand with the people of pakistan and reiterate the commitment of the united states to support the government of pakistan in efforts to promote peace in the region. richard, if you can, tell us what happened in that school

about 17 hours ago. >> we've spoken to military officials, we've spoken to survivors, witnesses. this attack unfolded and it was a massacre. it was a bloodbath, unfolded over about eight hours. it began local time around 10:40 in the morning. and a lot of the students were in assembly. some taking an exam. others were attending a career fair. and gunmen, all of them wearing suicide belts, cut through a fence, climbed over a fence, stormed into the assembly. at least one of the suicide attackers blew up his device. and then the others, at least six at this point, started opening fire indiscriminately. then they fanned out through the classrooms. this was a large compound that

had grades 1 through the end of high school. most of the classrooms that they went to, were of the older students, the ones who were 16 to 18. and the militants just went room to room, firing as students tried to hide under their desks. they were shot in the legs, they were shot in the head. a lot of the students tried to barricade themselves into the classrooms. the militants forced their way in and continued their murder spree, for about an hour. until the commandos arrived in helicopter. they landed in a soccer stadium not far away. they commenced an assault on the compound. but a lot of the rooms had been booby-trapped and it was difficult to enter. and a gunfight then lasted for the next seven hours or so as the military tried to clear the building. and then ultimately they did kill all of the militants, but the death toll was horrific. about 142 killed over 130 of

them, students. >> while you're on, i want to ask you, you've lived in that region. you're a great reporter over there. what can you tell us about the thinking of a person who would do this and believe they were the good guy? >> the logic is one of an eye for an eye, at least in their minds. the pakistani military, about six months ago, in the spring, began an offensive in northern waziristan. and this offensive in north waziristan has been devastating. we've seen images come out of there of some villages that have been flattened. all of the people forced out. and this part of north waziristan is a taliban stronghold. so from their perspective, they believe that the pakistani military is killing our children. we're going to respond by targeting their children. and this school, we've called it an army-run school. it's not a military academy. the students there aren't learning to be cadets.

it is a school that is a public school. it's open to civilians. but primarily it is for the children of the military. so, you asked what the logic is. the logic is, you kill us, we'll go find your children. >> michael, your view and feelings about this. >> well, chris, it goes without saying, my feelings are horror and astonishment. and just deep depression also that this is just seems to be something we're spending almost on a daily basis, talking about stories like this, where suicidal fanatics are killing innocent people in places like schools or in, you know, coffee shops as we saw in sydney. this is the product of something that, you know, from the -- this is sort of the backlash to something that the u.s. thinks is a good thing, which is this military offensive in waziristan. this is something that we've been wanting the pakistanis to do, which is to take on their

domestic taliban and in fact, that offensive killed a very senior al qaeda leader several days ago, which is something that obama officials were pretty pleased about. i think they've either killed or captured some other al qaeda leaders from region recently as well. so it's a horrible byproduct of something that does fit with our basic u.s. policy goals, but it's clear that pakistan does not really have its arms around this problem. when you're talking about a country with nuclear weapons, i think it's a foreign policy problem that doesn't command the headlines except in cases of atrocities like this. but really remains one of the lingering unsolved problems in american foreign policy. >> today nbc released a new poll that shows significant support in this country for torture. 51% of americans say harsh interrogation practices following the 9/11 attacks were acceptable. and 49% say they're acceptable enough to use again in the future.

richard, what do you make of this? i must tell you, in terms of the partisan breakdown, the democrats are against torture as a party. people in the party who identify as democrats. whereas republicans were 80% for torture, and more mixed among independents. does that surprise you? it's not eye for an eye and it doesn't compare to what we're talking about and what happened just less than a day ago in pakistan in terms of violence and cruelty? >> no, there's no comparison there. but i was somewhat surprised by it. i'd be curious to know how exactly that poll was worded. were people asked, if your life was on the line and a suspect is holding the trigger to a nuclear bomb, do you think he should be interrogated harshly or beaten up? but that's not necessarily the

way these programs worked. people were held, they were humiliated, sexually humiliated, for years at a time. so i'm not sure if the public really understands what happened here extends how these kind of interrogations would work. if they do, it's revealing about the state of thinking in this country. but torture is still illegal. it's in the bill of rights. you shouldn't have cruel and unusual punishments. so what the public thinks on this necessarily probably shouldn't have a bearing. >> thanks so much both of you. much more on the torture debate on this program and the politics of that fight. coming up with the roundtable, all that is coming back here, a lot more on torture tonight. this is "hardball," where you hear the debate.

back to "hardball." there's an old saying in

politics that politics makes strange bedfellows. while it's rare to see political opponents cross party lines to work for the other side. no relationship embodied that proverb than richard nixon and daniel patrick moynihan. this new book out tells the story of how a conservative president whose disdain for academia put a liberal intellectual into his white house staff in 1969 and listened to the guy. the friendship that developed was as genuine as it was unlikely. nixon, who was socially awkward, appreciated moynihan's wit and brilliance. and moynihan returned the favor giving the respect he craved. steven hash, a friend of mine, worked for both men. he joins me now. you were friends, got along with nixon when you were working for him. you were disappointed with what the guy did, of course. because you're a good guy. but moynihan, tell me what is it, in the sometimes squirrelly psyche of richard nixon, that led him to this prince of the

harvard establishment and made him one of his confidants. >> initially, i think it was one big mistake. you've been through transitions. transitions are, you're exhausted. it's all secretive. you don't know the future. and i think he just plain made a mistake in picking him. he had barely won the election. he was coming in with opposition congress, and he put him in the cabinet. that's easy, because you can fire him if you don't like him. but to put them right up next to you in the white house. that's a high-risk that i don't think the nixon people knew what they were doing and boy were they lucky. and moynihan was pushing for minimal income that people -- sort of like a right, a blue

right, it was a red right, and said nobody should live below a certain level in this country and got nixon to back it. >> because nixon had opposed it in the campaign. and what happened, somehow both of these guys, poor boys, and nixon had no interest in domestic affairs. all he wanted to do was sit in corner with kissinger and he turns it over to moynihan. i think what connected, their childhood, the fact of dependency, that nixon could remember poor boys coming into his father's store, whose parents were on relief and how it affected them for the rest of their lives. i think that was where pat drilled into the president -- >> let me ask you about the kennedy connection. moynihan said when jack was killed in '63, we'll never smile again. and nixon was a known rival of kennedy. >> right. >> was nixon interested in bringing in a kennedy guy? >> you wrote the book.

>> i know. >> you're telling me, i think by this point, the kennedy was the guy above the hill that he could never reach nixon. and to bring in somebody close to kennedy was a real odd bit of history. so i don't think that was it at all. >> if anybody comes, i got to finish up with selling this book, "the professor and the president," because it's great for anybody who loves politics and the way people relate to each other. but if you ever come to washington, you've already paid for it, please visit. all the museums are free. you paid for this with your tax dollars. come to washington and you'll appreciate the beautiful of pennsylvania avenue today. it used to be waffle shops and fire cracker stores, and now it's a beautiful champs elysee, like in france, it's gorgeous, because of pat moynihan.

the book's called "the professor and the president." up next, the torture debate. polls show people are fine with what the cia did after 9/11. could this be one the republicans win? people are so angry about terrorism, they don't really care what happens to these people. that's next on the roundtable. you're watching "hardball," the place for politics.

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♪ >> it worked. it worked now for 13 years. it absolutely did work. i'd do it again in a minute. >> wouldn't give it a thought. and that, ladies and gentlemen, is the best thing about dick cheney. he's impervious to doubt. never enters his mind. just because he's bitter and angry, doesn't mean i have to be. i'm going to end on a note of gratitude, something i never thought i would say. george w. bush, thank you for not dying while you were in office. [ laughter and applause ] that was rough but maybe true. welcome back to "hardball." that was "the daily show's" john stewart mocking dick cheney over his resolve on torture.

cheney doesn't have the best track record when it comes to the facts. nevertheless, the debate over whether the united states tortures its enemies for intelligence doesn't seem to be going away. today nbc released a poll that shows support for torture. 51% of americans say harsh interrogation practices following 9/11 were acceptable under the circumstances. 45% say that harsh interrogation tactics are acceptable enough to use again in the future. so generally useful. but the numbers get more interesting when you see the partisan breakdown. 80% of republicans say the practices are just fine. 44% of democrats say they went too far. so there's a partisan breakdown. not clear-cut, but it's there. certainly republicans have no problem with torture. these numbers follow the release of a scathing report from democrats on the senate intelligence committee on their investigation into the cia's

interrogation program itself. the committee concluded the program was not effective as a means of collecting intelligence. joining me now, steve mcmahon a democratic strategist and sam stein is political editor at the huffington post. sam, this question of torture and the american people, why do you think that in the main, 51%, people accept the need to be really rough? you can argue the word torture all you want, but really rough with suspected terrorists? >> you know what was interesting to me. i looked at the stats. you would presume the closer you were to 9/11, the more favorable you would be towards these methods, we had gone through a tragedy, we wanted to get these guys. but what ended up being the case, the further we've gotten away, the more the public has been okay with this. basically it's a partisan split. the moment where it became a slight majority of americans favoring it, was basically a year into the obama presidency. he had ran against torture --

>> i get it. >> i'm dead serious. >> so every time it's like the vietnam war, became very unpopular among democrats -- they were supporting it right up until then, and then said, we can't be for this war. same war. >> sam's right. >> so everything now is if you don't like obama, you like putin. i mean, anybody's at war with obama now is your new nationalist buddy. >> it shows you how far petty partisanship has gone in washington. if you look at the numbers, it's about the same time that the president's numbers were having a problem. >> so it went up to 45%. does that mean torture's going to come down a little? [ laughter ] >> the other thing, the wording of these things -- >> harsh interrogation techniques is -- >> but it's not torture. so i think the numbers would be a little different if you had used the word torture. >> you know, they were trying to

find something towards the middle. >> of course, but the descriptions you put in the procedures change the perception. >> i think harsh interrogation is a fair enough way of putting it. sitting in a coffin for four or five days. sitting on the cold floor, chained, naked. [ all speak at once ] >> or molestation, all these sex crimes. tell us what happened. we can handle it. we'll tell us what you think. >> my wife was a former prosecutor. you know her. she's a very tough woman. harsh interrogations occur every day across america. waterboarding and the kinds of things that were occurring that are torture, you know, it's -- >> what is harsh interrogation? what happened nowadays? >> first of all, they're there for a long time. secondly, often times the police officers and prosecutors aren't honest with the subject because

they're trying to get them to confess. they're trying to get them to implicate their co-conspirators, their co-defendants. so there are a lot of things that occur in those rooms that you might consider to be harsh interrogation, like being without food and water. >> you say harsh interrogation techniques and it sounds like you're sweating the suspect on a law & order episode -- that's a different than pureeing someone's lunch and putting it in their rectum, or having them stand there naked -- >> are we going there? >> they deserve to know. >> mccain said, the american people has a right to know. >> but he would say with his snarled lip, that was medically approved. [ all speak at once ] >> medically necessary. >> politically, you have a sense that this will come up, because it's the perfect thing to come up, if a regular moderator gets to ask the question. this will come up in debate. >> when jeb bush dip his toes in, hillary clinton will have to answer for all the obama policies.

everybody will say to jeb bush, your brother did this, what do you think of that? >> is he going to have to do this? is this what the life mission is now? as of today, he is running. he's now going to have to eat crap for the next year. every time they say, are you for torture or not? are you in or out? >> they'll try to find the division between him and his brother because it's the easiest story to write. >> same thing is going to happen -- >> they'll try to pull him over. >> the same thing will happen on the left with hillary clinton and barack obama. >> or elizabeth warren. >> no, it will be hillary clinton. >> no, not running, but just the standard. do you hate wall street? do you hate wall street? >> as much as elizabeth warren does. but what will happen, this might give hillary clinton a little bit of freedom to, a, separate herself where she'd like to and b --

>> you mean sister warren, like sister soldier? >> i think elizabeth warren does her service in a primary -- >> the american people are basically probably in most elections slightly center right. and some years where they're tired of that, they go to slightly center left. i don't know that we've gone hard either way in my lifetime. >> bad news for ted cruz. >> the only time we would have been ready is '32, but we had a moderate democrat in roosevelt. roundtable is staying with us. when we come back, remember when the conservatives in this country loved vladimir putin? back then they celebrated putin as a way to bash president obama. it's so weird. his enemies are their friends. but with russia's economy going down, how is the love affair with putin going right now? this is "hardball," the place for politics. so to kill the germs that may make your family sick, we recommend using lysol disinfectant spray every day.

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the u.s. congress has wrapped up its work for the year. it's on record now as the least productive of modern terms. the 113th congress passed 203 bills that were signed into law. the previous record low was 283 by the 112th congress. the public opinion of congress is hovering near record lows. the approval rate of congress this year averaged 15%, up just one point from last year's record low average. that's 1 in 6. and we'll be right back.

we're back. vladimir putin, don't you love the guy? has blazed a path of scorched earth in the international world. his defiance has heightened his popularity in russia and made him a hero to some of the right who want to stick it to president obama's leadership by backing him. let's watch. >> one other key point, vladimir putin believes in russia. he believes in russia's best in his mission. obama does not believe in american -- he makes a decision and everybody reacts. that's what you call a leader. president obama, he's got to think about it, go over it, talk to more people about it. >> i think putin is playing . >> i'm looking at his eyes and

the coldness in those blue eyes. that man would cut out your heart way butter knife and eat a burger afterward. after covering wars, i've never felt a physical chill than i did when i saw those eyes. >> torture wasn't a tough call for him? >> i don't think so. what's really tragic, it's not just russia, i lived in eastern europe for five years and was there during the transition and it's so painful for me now to see this region of the world which had struggled so hard after communism to sort of get together politically, economically and seeing it falling apart. and he's so central to that damage. >> some people say the argument, what the right-wing in this country, i don't mean the conservatives, the right-wing,

they like the idea that he thinks russia is an ethnic identity. it doesn't mean loyalty to a country, it means a particular birth, a background you come from ethnically. and people look about america that way. you know what i mean? you get the point? and they like him on that, because he's a pure nationalist. >> i can't believe you're making me follow that story and i have nothing. you get the point? and they like him on that, because he's a pure nationalist.

>> i can't believe you're making me follow that story and i have nothing. >> you never looked him in the eyes and saw his soul? [ laughter ] >> those clips that you played were all around the time that they invaded crimea. and the general attack on obama was, he was letting this land go to the russians. >> what was he supposed to do? >> that's what i'm getting at. there was short-term mentality about what he could do. they took a long look and things can change. but it looks like the long game has worked. the russian economy is tanking. it's oil and sanctions. and putin has barely any cards he can play now except be more belligerent. >> and the west is united. it's a strong solidarity. that's what we always wanted. stand against the bad guys. >> and last time this happened, yeltsin was in charge and who did he put in but putin?

it's sort of a cycle, but it busted yeltsin and it looks now if the oil price continues to decline and the situation with the sanctions, putin has a problem on his hands -- >> it still is a big economy in the globe. its complete tanking could become our problem. >> some journalists are raising the idea of revolution in russia. here's what the editor of the interpreter told "hardball" today. will he withstand another protest movement if the economy implodes? if, as if the '90s people were trying to withdraw all their money from atms and taking duffel bags full of rubles to buy a loaf of bread. my fear is that the next cataclysm in russian politics and it may be a revolution or kremlin coup followed by revolution, will be incredibly nasty and incredibly bloody. people will be shot dead in the street. this is no longer beyond the realm of possibility. >> i agree with that. we have to remember what makes putin click.

he's not just got nostalgia for the old union, he wants the great russia back and it's not coming back in that way. but you have to remember that when you're dealing with him which is one of the reasons why you can't just try to blow him out -- >> americans got to stick together when we have enemies in the world. if you got a guy like him, he shouldn't be debating this. we ought to say, i'm sticking with obama. >> absolutely. >> thank you all. when we return, let me finish with the horror in pakistan. going to be pretty tough coming back. you're watching "hardball," the place for politics. the conference call.

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to your mobile with no interruptions. i've never felt so alive. get the future of phone and the phones are free. comcast business. built for business. >> i'm looking in his eyes and the coldness. all i kwept thinking was for how many members was the last thing i saw. >> see, torture wasn't a tough call for him. >> i don't think so. and what it's really tragic, it's not just russia. i leved in eastern europe for five years and was there during the transition.

>> i recall the film apock lips now where the americans had inoculated the kids against disease. almost anything, i think. about 18 hours ago as we went on the air tonight, taliban members went about shooting young kids. the air tonight, taliban members went about shooting young kids. their fathers were in an army unit. it's the fire of purpose to stop them. certainly, that's food for thought these days before chris mass.

and that's "hardball" for now, thanks for being with us. "all in" with chris hayes starts right now. >> tonight, on "all in." >> you know you can't go to north korea now, right? >> i do know that, yet. >> hackers showing theaters on interview. the stars cancelled in light of the threats. sony forced to pull the movie? plus, the smoking gun's bomb shell report casts even more doubt about testimony in the darren wilson case. then, is the world ready for a third president bush? >> i think he would be a great president. >> jeb bush is officially thinking about running for president. anth