american pope is very significant. given what the president mentioned today as well, that this is an opportunity for the united states to right a wrong and to get us moving in a different direction and improve our relations, our standing, change the conversation a bit, by taking the cuba issue off the table in the latin america contest text where we have been rightly and correctly berated for so long. so again, this was the pope to make this happen. >> thank you very much for joining us to night. >> thanks for having me. our man in havana. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. today is a moment in american history through the cuban revolution, through fidel castro's open alliance with the soviet union, through all the decades since, the united states and the regime in havana are now opening diplomatic relations. we will have a full-fledged u.s.

embassy and an ambassador in havana. for those americans able to visit cuba, they can bring home a good number of that country's cigars, something whose prohibition has been a symbol of hostility. it all happened as part of an exchange of prisoners, especially the release of alan gross who handed here in washington earlier today. the declaration by president obama at noon that he acting within his authority is opening formal ties between the two countries is yet another step by this democratic president, following his executive order on immigration and his continuing push for a deal with iran to assert his philosophy before leaving office. it is hard to imagine a conservative republican doing anything of the kind. here's president obama making history. >> i've instructed secretary kerry to immediately begin discussions with cuba to reestablish diplomatic relations that have been severed since january of 1961. going forward, the united states

will reblesh an embassy in havana and high ranking officials will visit cuba. i've instructed secretary kerry to review cuba's designation as a state sponsor of terrorism. we are taking steps to increase travel, commerce and the flow of information to and from cuba. i do not expect the changes i'm expecting today to bring about a transformation of cuban society overnight. but i am convinced that through a policy of engagement, we can more effectively stand up for our values and help the cuban people help themselves as they move into the 21st century. i do not believe we can keep doing the same thing for over five decades and expect a different result. >> joining me now, the "washington post" columnist eugene robinson and jose. let me start with you. and just without getting into the passions which are so strong historically, and i covered the whole elian gonzalez else at length. if these two days are set apart from all history, the

conversation from 90 minutes between president obama and raul castro, the head of the regime in havana last night. this decision to open formal relations. how will this change history just by these 24 hours? >> no doubt about it. no doubt about it. this is a monumental change. the fact is the united states of america for more than 54 years has main tained that the castro regime is not a regime with which we want to have relations with. and there are a number of things that have happened. and you listed just some of them. but i mean, we can go back to just the july of last year when a north korean ship was intercepted in the panama canal. it was heading back to north korea. and inside they found sugar coming from cuba. but also two mig jets and 240 metric tons of cuban made armaments violating the international embargo against arms being sent to north korea. that was done by the castro

regime. we're talking about a long history that has not changed inside cuba. the rest the world has changed, chris. the united states had president eisenhower when they broke relations with the castro regime. and those two same brothers that were in power back then are still in power today. they are frozen in time. where the rest of the world has changed dramatically. >> is this all give on our side? what are we going to get? because somebody in the middle will say, on the hard left they may say swell. people in the middle will say wait a minute. is he going to have elections? let the people out of prison down there? thousands? what is he going to do? >> one thing, the prisoner swap today. alan gross for the three cuban spies. in addition to alan gross, also the u.s. intelligence asset. apparently a cuban national who was very important to the united states and its intelligence

gathering in cuba. -on that cuba is releasing 53 political prisoners. i was at, i don't know if jose, you had a chance to look at them. i look at raul castro's remarks today. he spoke at the same time president obama spoke. they were fairly temperate. it struck me, emwe're releasing some people in some prisoners in whom the united states is interested. it was -- i've been to cuba ten times. roughly between 2000 and 2004. every time i went i thought less of the castro government and more of the cuban people. and so i am very optimistic today. i think this is a win for the cuban people. i don't think it is a win for the cuban government. >> here's an interesting player. something we all respect. the breakthrough was worked out with the help of the vatican. another amazing by-product of this new pope. it praised the outcome. the holy father wishes to express his warm congratulations for the historic decision taken

by the governments of the united states and cuba to establish diplomatic relations with the aim of overcoming in the interest of both countries. i know you're a journalist like me. and jose, we have to be careful, how deemly we express this. as an american i don't forget that he betrayed the democratic revolution of the cuban people. i don't forget that he betrayed those. us in the united states who has kids rooted like hell for that guy when he went up and defeated batista. we thought he was a democrat who believed in liberal values and he did not. can the people of cuba wholey in this country, who come from cuba, do you think they'll want anything less than justice? will they ever have peace of heart with those two men? >> we saw in south africa, there are processes of reconciliation that can occur after the bitterness of difficult moments passed. the question is, when will that bitter moment pass? and what will it take? because the fact of the matter

is that, and the president in this historic step he's taking today reestablishing relations with the castro regime. there are some things he cannot do because the american embargo has been codified into law. it was really a series of executive orders put back to back that later in the '90s were codified into law. the edge of the embargo is very clear and it is almost so simple that if you read it, you say, okay. and it's this. >> what are the 123s? >> american embark over will cease to exist when the cuban government call for free and fair elections. the process of free and fair elections begins. number one. number two, political prisoners are freed. and number three, that there is freedom of expression. freedom of labor unions to unite and to create labor unions. those are the three.

they're pretty simple. >> i think we all agree. a communist is never, a guy who is as deemly committed to communism. may be because they're so old. can you imagine them changing their heart? do you know what? i think this country knees free elections. can you imagine that? >> i'll tell you what. i think there's the castro brothers are more similar to stalin than they are to gorbachev, a leader that they amply criticized. >> if that's the standards, free elections, free the prisoners and free expression, they're communists. they don't agree to that. i know i sound like a cold war but it's a fact. how do we get in the middle? >> look, i think you have seen cuba moving toward a more open economy. although not, you know -- >> hike the chinese model. >> nowhere near there yet. what i always heard going in and out of cuba was that raul castro thought the china model was a pretty good idea. >> no freedom.

just money. >> we'll give you prosperity. >> and keep your mouth shut. >> and keep us in power. but that fidel castro was appalled at what was happening in china. that people were getting rich. he hated the idea. i'm not aware that we've heard anything from fidel today. we've heard from raul. it will be interesting to see how far cuba can go without fidel. >> the human nature. for the last five years and pretty tough circumstances, flew home today. was greeted by the secretary of state john kerry. he also spoke over the phone with president obama. this afternoon mr. gross talked about his view of the president's actions toward cuba. he is all for this big break. here he is. >> i also feel compelled to share with you my utmost respect for and fondness of the people of cuba.

in no way are they responsible for the ordeal to which my family and i have been subjected. to me cubanos are incredibly talented and kind. it pains me to see them treated so unjustly consequence of two governments mutually blig reynold policies. ve and a half decades of history show us it inhibits better judgment. two wrongs never make a right. >> let me get to my friend jose on this. the president, somebody said this. the stale cold war thinking, the past is prelude. and as you point out, there is no indication that the castro brothers have changed.

so the past is the present with these folks. what can they do in a real sense? can you imagine it would say to the cuban american community, which is about split politically between the democrats and the republicans on this. just a rough split. and probably along generational lines to convince the older folks. maybe they are willing to say uncle. communism wasn't the right move. we were wrong to do this. will they ever do that? >> it is difficult on see the castro brothers doing that. and the question is really, how can you ask people, for example, in south florida who have lost a family member to that regime, or people who, rafters as we speak today have been risking their lives trying to leave that island nation to reach freedom in the united states and maybe have lost a cousin. i work with a guy in telemundo network, my floor manage here

got on a raft 20 years ago and came with his first cousin and his first cousin's brother, and he lost them at sea. it is very difficult to have that discussion and that conversation with someone who saw a first cousin being eaten alive by sharks because they had dreams of living with a future that they saw was not possible in cuba. it is about people in the final analysis, chris, and i see why alan said what he said. he felt five years of imprisonment in that island nation. but it is very difficult to ask people that have experienced that firsthand to say let's call uncle on both sides of the equation. >> your heart is as valuable as your mine. i will not forget what you just said. we have to go. >> i was going on say one thing. the 12 million people on the island of cuba. and my question, i've never been able to answer it. how does our current policy, or our form he policy now, how is it helping those people? those are the people had have to live with this regime every day. i think this changed -- >> this is the kind of debate i

want here. thank you. coming up, we'll get into the politics. president obama's historic move. today already jeb bush said he is against and it marco rubio is doing all he can to unravel it. so you see they are partisan. we'll debate whether this is a good move or not. you think this was hot. it will get hotter. y. y. man: you're not coming. i took mucinex to help get rid of my mucusy congestion. i'm good all day. [announcer:] mucinex keeps working. not 4, not 6, but 12 hours. let's end this [ shutter clicks ] hi there! [ laughs ] i'm flo! i know! i'm going to get you your rental car. this is so ridiculous. we're going to manage your entire repair process from paperwork to pickup, okay, little tiny baby? your car is ready, and your repairs are guaranteed for as long as you own it. the progressive service center -- a real place, where we really manage your claim from start to finish.

really. ♪ easy as easy can be bye! senator marco rubio may be running for president this 2016. today he blasted the deal that president obama made to normalize relations with cuba. >> it is unacceptable that the only people in this hemisphere that do not know democracy and have not known democracy for more than five decades is the people of cuba. that should be our overriding objective. to do all we can to bring about political democratic openings in

cuba. and then a free cuban people can decide whatever economic model they want. but the measures taken today will do nothing to bring about that day and in fact i fear will significantly set it back. today by conceding to the oppressors, this president and this administration have let the people of cuba down. >> more on the politics and the cuban decision right after this.

president's move to normalize relations in cuba has brought the issue to the forefront of the 2016 presidential debate. contend orders both sides have taken sides. in her book, hard choices, hillary clinton explained why she advocated to edge the embargo while she was secretary of state. wasn't cheeg the goals. we believe that the best way to bring change to cuba would be to

expose its people to the values, information and material comforts of the outside world. well, the form he will florida governor jeb bush who took major stems toward a presidential run yesterday came out against the white house move saying, cuba is a dictatorship with a disastrous human rights record. now president obama has rewarded those dictators. we should be foster efforts that will truly lead to the fair, legitimate democracy that will ultimately prevail in cuba. >> the united states should only have a new relationship with cuba when there is progress on basic human rights for the cuban people, including the release of political prisoners, fair and free elections, the respect of the rule of law, the cessation of destabilizing countries in the region, and the embrace of a free market economy. then and only then should it be lifted. >> in other words, the partisan battle lines have been drawn

clearly. joining me, charlie crist who ran for governor this year as a democrat. now the cheryl of the republican party in florida. i want to start with you. i know it. i want to you spell it out. what is the opposition about to normalizing relations? >> i figured something was afoot. i'm a great ad mitre of the pope as you are. i was there when president bush signed a law. it was something i work for and i've always been praying to do the right thing. i'm not sure the right thing is what we have now. the goal is to help the 11 million people who have lived in suffering and to this day, the, the distan of the government so many years. i'm not sure this gets us there. the ire and the anger of the

cuban people in cuban miami who for so many years have suffered so much them still don't believe that oppression has in any way changed or ended as a result of the unilateral stems. yes, u.s. business interests may be hem. yes, the castro regime all of a sudden becomes a citizen in good standing and the world without having done anything about it. the 11 million people in cuba. it is not bringing in $500. they want to smell free air them don't want to be jailed for expressing their opinions. they don't want that oppression around their necks every day. nothing that was done today will help those people. >> let me ask you. why is there a difference along party lines? there are exceptions like senator menendez in new jersey. generally people go to the usual battle stations. democrats want a softer line them want normalization. republicans want a ready had aer lien. why do the democrats want a softer line which means we'll negotiate, we'll have the trade

embargo. >> i don't know if it is partisan. democrats are for this thing. republicans against it. it is really falling that pattern. >> i think what we're seeing is the fact the republican party is a much more conservative party even than sense the time that we had the chairman in florida. and i think more of that is what you're seeing voiced today. you're not seeing it from by senator make the from arizona. a republican who supports what president obama did today. >> is the other part more anti-come nest than you are? >> no. nobody supports communism in the united states of america.

this should be a day we are celebrating. there are 11.2 million people on the cuban island. they have been suffering 50 years under this current policy. continuing the same thing over and over again and specking a different result is the definition of insanity. i think enough time has been devoted to the embargo and the way we're treating cuba. i think we need to try something new and i applaud president obama. it is not an easy they know to do but it is the right they knowed too. if you're concerned about their rights and to enjoy some of the freedoms we as american do. i think it is what gorbachev did so many years ago and look what the whatever has changed. >> one thing that hasn't change, gorbachev was not stalin. but castro is castro. and i want to go back to al. it seems to me that my problem

with castro is, i never liked him. he betrayed the revolution. we as kids thought he was a will he be ral democrat. that's what he said he was when he came in his pajamas to the u.n. we were rooting for him and he turned out to be a red. he trm out to be loyal to the soviet union. he bet on them in the cold war. he would have been there at the firing squad shooting us all. i'm sorry. i want to ask you, should castro be brought to justice? both those brothers, is it have feasible bh. with they're brought to the government? >> iley every day. i brought to justice for stealing moan. how are you not going to be brought to justice for killing people? the former president of guatemala has just been in prison in the united states because he took a $2 million

check from the phone company. the united states has a long arm to reach out to a man like that and put him in prison, how do we not put someone in prison who killed thousands of people? where is the sense of justice? and further more, this matter has to go before congress. there are a number of measures he announce that had clearly need a congressional change to the current law. we've codified foreign policy. i would like to see during that debate some insist tension of what castro is actually going to do i don't know promising so we see what is on the table. we've always said. in spite of our fight for fidel castro. in spite of the tears that people in my own family have shed for things that happened to them. we're willing to do whatever it took to bring cuba back to the league of nations of this hemisphere. we asked for only a few things. in return for our company opening its doors, helping cuba restore itself to its former grand i don't think at this. we only wanted castro to do a

few things that dealt with human rights. open your prisons of political prisoners. allow freedom of thought. allow people to organize politically. we didn't ask anything for anything other than the basic high school rights that -- basic human rights. >> what are your concerns before we open up full economic ties with cuba? what do you want? do you want elections there, for example? do you want remove, release of all the political prisoners? what do you want them to do? >> all of us want them to have the samd freedoms that we enjoy. >> no free trade with cuba until they do that stuff. is that your position? >> no. i think we have to take some stems. i think the president took great courage to take a big step today. you have to, in order to move forward, you have to have some communication. you have to be willing to talk

to people that maybe you don't agree with on everything to make life better and the quality of life better for the people on the island. that's what the president did today. it took courage to do it and i applaud him for having done so. now that we have the first step behind us. we need to work with the congress, to find the points of commonality. inning do you think the castro brothers will ever allow truly free elections in cuba in their lifetime? >> no. >> governor? will they allow free elections where they could be thrown out of power and programs put in prison? that's what would probably

happen to them. if they lose a democratic election, they won't live very long. that's what i think. >> i would hope and i'm sure al does and you do too, that they would allow for free, open elections. we can agree on that. >> i don't think they'll change their stripes. i think they're comies. i think they believe it. they don't believe in freedom or democracy. i don't like castro. i've never liked him. ever since he betrayed people like me. up next, who is behind that massive cyber hack at sony pictures? they threatened 9/11 style headaches on movie theaters and now sony is canceling the release of the film. what is this? successful terrorism? this is horrible stuff and it is scary. we'll get some answers i hope in a minute. ♪ [ female announcer ] you've tried to forget

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some late news on that big sony hacking case. two government officials tell nbc news the u.s. government's assess many is that north korea is indeed behind the hack on sony. officials say the hacking attack originated outside north korea but they believe the individuals behind writ acting on orders from the north kreenl. the group that has claimed

responsibility for the attacks calls itself the guardians of peace. they say it was retaliation over the release of sony's comedy, "the interview." the group threatened a 9/11 style attack on movie theaters around the country, promming sony to actually pull the plug on the movie now. the film's release date won't happen december 25th. nbc's bob woodrum is our investigative reporter. these threats, is it the same group knicks believes that basically hacked and then issued this threat, don't go to the movies and watch this thing? >> it seems to be coming from the same source. the u.s. government has been using the most sense i have the means to determine who was behind this. and the u.s. government assessment that was made essentially from what i can understand today is that in the

north korea is behind the attack. the question becomes, who did they use? did it originate in that country or was it outside that country? and that remains as far as we can tell, uncertain. but what is the u.s. government assessment, is that the regime of kim young un was behind, is responsible for that hack attack. >> so the outsource, that gets to capability. what about motive? is this more anti-japanese because we keep forgetting, it is so familiar to us. a brand name coming from japan. are they anti-japanese or anti-american or what? >> certainly they're both. i mean, i think we know that. and of course the north koreans and the japanese have a long history stretching back 100 years. and very sbenls. and i think it is entirely possible that the idea that sony was behind this angered them greatly. the fact that it is being released in the u.s. couldn't have helped either.

i do think at the end of the day, the u.s. is going to have to determine what to do in response. north korea was not known as among the first rank of cyber warriors. i mean, you've seen in the last few years, attacks by iran and certainly some of the european countries, china, europe have that capability. but north korea was not on that short list until now. >> so this is something we're going to have to face. my question is, why did they get mad at a movie when people have been making fun at that leader and his father for years now. all over the west, the haircuts, everything about them is so archaic and weirdly isolated. why do you think a movie bugged them enough to go to this extent? >> it may just be the cumulative effect. that there have been over the

years, ten you'll attacks, as you noted, on their leadership. and it may have been just an opportunity that they came across someone willing to do it. or they went out and tried to find someone to do it. that we do not know. >> thank you for that intelligence. up next, torture. hillary clinton condems what the cia did after 9/11. what about jeb bush? you're watching "hardball."

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today we can say again in a loud and clear voice that the united states should never condone or practice torture anywhere in the world. not under any future administration or in any future conflict. >> welcome back to "hardball." hillary clinton was honored at the kennedy center gala. she made her first public comments on tort you since the release of that report. and she made clear that there should be no ambiguity about u.s. torture policy. >> that should be absolutely clear as a matter of both policy and law including our international treaty

obligations, and if that requires new legislation, then congress should work with president obama to quickly enact it. remember what senator mccain said the other day. the high standard to which we hold ourselves isn't about our enemies. it is about us. >> potential candidates will have no choice to state a clear policy. and joining me now, michelle bernard, and jonathan allen, washington bureau chief for the bloomberg news. thank you. i guess the question is about hillary clinton. this weird role she is in. she is not a candidate like pretty much jeb bush is. and yet there's not a lot that will happen between now and then. she'd better get her act together and come out and say something. >> she is in a difficult spot. i think it appears that she always feels late on all of the big issues.

she talked about torture one week after everyone was talking about it. she is talking about the fact that black lives matter and ferguson. and she was late on all of these issues. at least it feels late. i don't know if there's such a thing as a timely discussion on torture. but it feels that she is late on everything. that she is overthinking it to make sure she has the right position so what happens on her in 2008 doesn't ham in 2016. and i don't know if people want a candidate who is that safe. >> i was talking about responsibility night and the ability to go, i don't agree with that. the ability to know who you are always. and be always able to say it and not have to consider it or talk to people about it. >> she is hyper cautious. even the president of the united states who has to be, he has these rhetorical constraints on him. everything he says can be interpreted and can change policy. >> how does she get a little biden in her?

>> i don't know what christmas parties you've been to. the white house christmas parties are not like that. >> you know the thing we learned in psychology. the id, the thing that wants to talk and somebody says i'd better not say. that sometime the id helps. >> obama. months ago, we tortured some folks. she is saying torture should not be the policy. it should be against the policy and the law of the united states. this is torture and we shouldn't do it ever. >> it was a very formalized statement in a very formal setting. i think the cautiousness there in the previous campaigns was certainly there when she wrote her book about her years at the state department. i think it sort of pairs up from her thinking with programs reluctance to be overexposed. not come out too fast, too much. we'll to have live with hillary for almost two years as a candidate. >> we know she's there though. >> you know she's there. but at the same time, you don't

want to see her pounce too much. and you're right. you don't want to be late. >> it takes a deft touch. >> how do you learn to play baseball? how do you learn to box or anything? how do you learn to type? you learn how to do it by doing it. how can she learn how to be a candidate by not being a candidate? >> you raised an excellent point that will playing her going forward. and happy birthday. >> we talked about that. you raised an excellent point when you said who is she? we want to know who she is. here's one of the things that i think will playing her going forward. maybe she is the person that sort of ebbs and flows with whatever she thinks the populace is. i think one of the things that will come back to haunt her. if you go back to the discussion we had a few months ago about hillary clinton and her defense of a rapist. an alleged rapist in arkansas years ago. i have to bring it up. listen.

>> i've listened to that tape. >> you don't know what i'm going to say. my point is that hillary clinton had a deep southern accent. she seemed completely different than the hillary clinton of today and people will ask, who is the real hillary clinton? >> are not you different than you were 30 years ago? >> i still sound the same. >> how many accents do you have? >> it depends on where i am. >> really? let's go back to the sub stance, away from style. we'll get back there. let's talk about what she said before. let's look at what she said in 2006 right now. and this was -- >> senator clinton, this is the number three man in indicated kafld we know there's a bomb about to go off and we have three days and we know this guy knows where it is. should there be a presidential exception to allow torture in that kind of situation? >> you know, tim, i agree with what joe and barack have said. as a matter of policy, it cannot be american policy, period.

>> well, hillary clinton has been a staunch opponent of tort you. in 2006, in a meeting with the new york daily news, she allowed for the extreme ticking time bomb scenario. where you have a terrorist captured and you don't have time for an interrogation that does not allow torture. and she has said i have said that those situations are very rare, but if they occur there has to be some lawful authority for that. where we have the basis to believe there is something imminent. but we have to have a check and balance. that's opening up i will find a legal authority. you're letting someone else decide. >> look what w.'s administration did. they went to yellow. >> someone in their own office that they poinld. >> the bottom line is the ticking time scenario. >> she brought it up. >> why? she wanted to sound a little bit hawkish. >> she was talking to the new york daily news.

>> what she did for years on the iraq war position. she kind of defended but not defended. it took her eight, ten years to say i was wrong. this goes back to what you were talking. about politicses tends not to admit they're wrong and a lot of them like to have it both ways. you have to have an authentic way of doing that. >> that i think that hillary clinton in 2006 was the real hillary clinton. i don't see a problem. i don't think she will have a problem with that. all of them evolve eventually on various issues i don't know that it has changed. she doesn't want to could not strain herself if she's president which makes it really hard to run a presidential campaign. >> do you know what i think, i think when it comes to that crunch, the rules are there and they will be used or not. in the end if it comes the this country facing something hike an existential threat, the president will do what he or she believes should be done. that's a fact. a fact of life.

you do it with your kids. the round stable is staying with us. up next, president obama addresses race relations in this country. our new poll believes it is as bad as it has been in 20 years. over 200,000 people are hospitalized

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the republicans have won the final outstanding race of the year. martha mcsally defeated ron barber in arizona. the district formerly held. it was a race that went to a recount. that means the republicans now control the house with 247 seats in the new congress. their largest majority since the hoover era of the early '30s. race relations are the worst

race relations are the worst they've been in the united states in almost two decades. that's terrible news. not since o.j. simpson was acquitted have race relations been so bad the poll revealed at that time that 61% of americans said that relations between the races were bad. according to a new poll 57% of americans say race relations are bad. that increasingly pessimistic view comes in the wake of

protests over the deaths of unarmed black men at the hands of police. back now with the roundtable talking about that, david, michelle and john. i know you've been very passionate about this as a mother of a couple boys. >> a boy and a girl. >> you know about the feelings. you have them. >> you can't help but have them. i saw a drama on nbc where a female president who's african-american, her son was killed, and she said to one of the characters in the program, this war is going to make all of us killers. and she was talking about women. i think a lot of african-american american women in particular feel that way because we are watching what feels to us like a battle that is being waged. people are talking about castro and human rights violations in cuba. we're living in -- >> let's talk about -- >> -- against americans today. >> -- i would call you an

intellectual. >> yeah. >> so when you think intellectually about your kids, how they would get into a police situation. how would you see it escalating? like the guy who was a street guy, he didn't go to college or anything. how did that escalate? all of a sudden they're treating him like he's a criminal, like he's a real felon. that's weird. cops escalated that, i would argue. but michael brown, who had been involved in a crime, maybe not the worst crime in history but a crime of larceny, and in this case, what would you think would happen? in your blind side when you think of your young son getting involved with the police and ending up tragically. how does it happen? >> all children white and black

do stupid things. it just happens. if you're a black male, all it takes to escalate is being a black male and doing the stupid thing that your friends, for example, in college could do, go to a toga party, go get drunk, go have a beer and back lip a cop. your son won't get killed. mine might. >> so you actually see it through your eyes. you can see it happening? >> absolutely. absolutely. >> i think what i've earned, when i say say things are getting better, i'm feeling better. but then i watch the black community react, especially in ferguson, which isn't going away. that degree of passion and anger is not going away. and how come i didn't know about that? when i'm asked how things are going, i answer as a white person. i think they're getting better because i don't feel anything bad. i feel day-to-day relations with people you bump into all seem on one to one look good. >> we have a black president. >> i was ecstatic at -- >> so was it. >> jesse jackson was crying. >> i find with my two teenaged girls, they have friends of all ethnic backgrounds, religions. >> that's the norm now. >> when i did that as a kid, we noted that. but to me the profound divide that people have in perspective where people have in the community michelle are talking about really feel a war, and people like you say, hey, i

don't see a problem. >> until i saw one. >> until you saw one. it really shows that this country has its underlying division that is not going to be easily dealt with i think in the coming future with just a few policy changes or indictments. >> be easier to put 57% of people think there's a race problem. the other 43% have no idea what they're talking about. >> a lot of that's class, some go to private school. others don't. thank you, as always. michelle bernard and jonathan allen. when we return, let me finish with what we're just talking about, the way white people and black people think about race and it's different and it's disturbing. you're watching "hardball." while every business is unique,

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comcast business. built for business. let me finish tonight with what we were just talking about, the way that white people and black people think about race. i think whites tend to let the subject drop once in a while. i mean, they don't even think about how things are going in this country between the two groups. they think of whatever else is worrying them, how to pay the bill and what to do when you get a little time off. i learned that african-americans don't have that luxury, that mental ability to simply drop the subject. they have to deal with the matter whether it's the way white people look at them, act around them, they get vibes, they get outright behavior that says things are not great between us even if the white person doesn't admit to sending those signals or people believe they're sending them. a white person doesn't have to think about the difficulty of getting a cab or how their young sons will be treated in a vulnerable situation involving the police. they don't have to worry about a

small incident escalating into something horrible. think of the way black people and white people responded when they first got the news flash of the o.j. simpson verdict. personally, i was stunned. i thought two hours of deliberation meant that the jury found him guilty. how could they not, i thought, with all the blood over the place? all the trying to escape in the white bronco with the passport to the skies? why would a beloved celebrity go racing for the border when his wife is killed? i wasn't ready for the strong outpouring of anger over the michael brown tragedy i certainly was for the eric garner killing. i saw in that video all they needed to see, that there needed to be more than a grand jury, there needed to be the real one, the kind you get after there's a trial. so as we, white and black, continue along this line of tragedy and race relations, i believe the whites among us will learn not just from their own reaction of horrible events but from the other communities

reaction. when we ask how things are going, we'll have already begun to learn to judge progress not by our own lights but by the lights of others. there are just too many of those other people i've come to personally respect. that's "hardball" for now. "all in" with chris hayes starts now. >> sony announcing in a statement to nbc news that they are no longer planning to release the movie "the interview" on december 25th. >> sony just paid the ransom. the hackers have won. and now the question, does free speech stop at the water's edge? then a breakthrough 53 years in the making. >> today the united states of america is changing its relationship with the people of cuba. >> the u.s. will normalize relations with cuba. >> i do not believe we can keep doing the same thing for over five decades and expect a