an american problem, that we all have a stake in, and that we all must deal with it. that is where we move the ball forward towards scoring for the american people. thanks for watching. i'm al sharpton. "hardball" starts right now. the pirates of pyongyang. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. who stole my mail? who killed my movie? who is this country's enemy and why are they doing these terrible things to us? don't you want to know? don't you want to know who had a way to crash into the computers of a major movie company, fished out all their records, anything anyone said to anything, and throw it out for the public. and done it with such panatche

that it scared the distributors. and who else is so scared that people seem to be shaking in their boots that everybody's going to read the secret messages they've been sending on their laptops, their iphones, their desktops at work. and by the way, what are those secret little or big messages that everyone's trying to hide now. that the north koreans or everyone else is scaring them into thinking will go public. what are we talking about here. corporate strategies, financial reports, salaries, or love notes? what's so secret that the fear of coming out causes big shots to knuckle under and bow before the bad haircut boys over in pyongyang? and is that what's scaring everybody from trying to retaliate right now? chris was a cybersecurity adviser to the white house. and was also an air force intelligence officer. and ted johnson, he's been here before many times, the senior editor at "variety." i want to start with chris. just look at this big picture now. can you figure out why everybody in the government was saying, oh, it's north koreans last night and they also did the warnings about something bad happening at the movie theaters,

and now they're going quiet. what's going on in the government, the obama administration right now? can you tell? >> yeah, well, chris, attribution is really hard in this space. it's very easy to remain anonymous. if you remember, plato's ring of guygis, you can basically do and say anything in this space and it's hard to figure out who's behind it. so there are indications now that the north koreans are, indeed, involved somehow. but that could mean a number of things. and i think the administration, rightly, is taking its time, to figure out the facts and collect the evidence, to make sure if, indeed, there is an official public accusation or condemnation, that we know exactly what happened or at least with a high degree of confidence. >> why do you think they're afraid to say on public television or somewhere else, just put it out there as a statement, we think the north koreans did it? >> well, you know, we want to make sure that whatever the

administration does is with an eye toward building constructive norms in this space. so simply to accuse somebody without plenty of evidence won't necessarily be constructive. however, if we could say build a criminal case against these hackers and/or create, you know, perhaps some regional partnerships for some sort of diplomatic demarsh, those sorts of responses would be quite constructive in this case, and would serve to tamp down and de-escalate this event. >> ted, i'm a movie nut, as many people know. i tree to see every good movie out there and a few bad ones. and i have watched movies that have driven me crazy because i think they're damned inaccurate and insulting to say that lyndon johnson had something to do with killing jack kennedy. put it up on the screen, oliver north gets -- fine, it's a free country. we accept that. along comes north korea, one of

the most primitive damned countries in the world, have no right to show anything, and they're shutting down our movie history. that's pretty scary. >> it sure is. actually, i was talking to bill richardson last week about this, he was really surprised at the whole idea that north korea could be involved, because as you said, a primitive country, how do they even have the capability. i think people in hollywood are shocked at this. that it's come to this. this is something unprecedented, that they've never really seen before. and after sony's decision yesterday to pull the movie, there's a lot of angry people thinking that, you know, does this set a precedent? can any other country kind of come along and essentially have a veto power over what viewers see on tv or in the movie theaters. >> and the stars of those movies have been all over the talk shows, i've watched them, there are some in the movie already, the money's in the movie, $40-some million. we're ready to see the movie. and some guy with that weird haircut. i don't think people are

laughing at north korea like they were. they're now a little afraid of them. these guys have some power we didn't know about. anyway, today the white house was careful to the to get ahead of themselves on this. my colleague, andrea mitchell, pressed homeland security chief jay johnson today on the subject of the u.s. response. let's watch that back and forth. >> we're not prepared to officially say who we believe was behind this attack. the u.s. government is actively considering a range of options that we'll take in response to this attack. >> what kind of options? this is not a military issue, or is it? >> well, like i said, we're considering a range of options. we regard this as a very serious attack. >> is it terrorists? is it terrorism? >> i hate to put labels on what we believe occurred here. >> well, behind the scenes, there appears to be little agreement on the strategy to respond to north korea. one u.s. official told nbc news that the country, quote, can't let this go unanswered. but, or yet, another official told "the washington post,"

quote, we are not willing to escalate. in that same story, the newspaper reported that, quote, officials agree that there are no good options. chris, what are people afraid of? i mean, i know i'm naive, but i guess my e-mail's pretty boring, but what is everybody afraid of, that the exhibiters, the distributors, why are they all buckling to this guy in pyongyang, in north korea, apparently? >> well, chris, you have to think about the precedent for the future. and, you know, what i would say is, we don't want to resort to frontier justice by throwing rocks when our entire society and economy is built of glass. so we have to be very careful how we proceed, because this is an entirely new space. it's unchartered territory. and we don't want to establish unhelpful norms that will escalate and keep american companies in the cross fire. so we want to -- >> what makes you -- you sound worried yourself. what is the worst thing the guy could do to us in terms of hacking into our -- anybody in

this country's information? what's the scariest thing you can imagine somebody doing? >> well, the hackers in this case, the power is the information that they hold. it's not any threat, any credible threat, of actual commitment of violence. so in this case, this is an extortion case. and it just shows you how difficult it is to protect information, in this day and age. attackers, in cyberspace, have an incredible asymmetric advantage, and it's very difficult, even with proper defenses, to prevent people from intruding into these systems. george clooney put it best in his e-mail to sony, when he said, i recognize that this e-mail is probably going to be hacked some day. so, that really sums it up. >> help me out. is gm afraid of the competition in germany or japan or korea or south korea, we'll find out what their new models look like? give me an example of somebody losing big money over hacking, how it would work? >> that's exactly right. the theft of intellectual

property is a huge problem right now. and it's sort of death by a thousand cuts. so all of those precious years and resources put into r&d can be gone in minutes if it's not properly protected. >> so you have to get the formula to coca-cola? you can get the formula to some medicines that are patented right now? >> make a lot of money on viagra or something like that? >> i wouldn't know anything about that. >> but the money that goes into these formulas -- go ahead, ted, your thought. >> it's not just trade secrets that you look to in the future. it's actually happening right now with this hack. they hacked the script to the next james bond movie. and if it's out there, it's not just fans who are going to get ahold of it and see the plot points, it's potential competitors who could put out kind of a low-budget version, with the same plot points, and kind of diminish the film. so a lot of producers really worried about that, who are connected to that franchise. >> well, hollywood's furious

about the decision to pull sony's "the interview," the movie. abc's jimmy kimmel used last night's opening monologue to rip into the studios that yanked the film. here he is. >> the nation's five biggest movie theater chains announced they would not allow the movie to be shown. and i think those theater owners should be ashamed of themselves. personally, i think allowing a ruthless dictator of another country to decide what american people can and cannot see, in our own country, is against, like everything we're supposed to stand for, right? i mean people died for our right -- >> ted, is that applause real? is that hollywood's applause as well? >> quite a bit of people saying, listen, how can a country actually do this? i mean, they've had situations where movies have been comfortable and other countries have condemned them. but we're talking about the screening of a movie within the united states, and i wouldn't be surprised if there's some kind of countercampaign to get this movie out there, maybe not with sony, but some other type of

distributor, at the white house today, there was some question as to maybe the white house should actually host a screening of this movie, to kind of really show them. so i think -- yeah, hollywood, a lot of concern over the precedent this sets. right after sony canceled the movie, actually, there is another movie that was to star steve carell that was canceled that had to do with north korea. >> well, i think one of the prides of this country -- go ahead, chris. i want to make my point here. i said, there are some oliver stone movies that drive me crazy, but i don't think the facts are right and they stir people up. but we had "the passion" on, mel gibson's movie. a lot of people, not just in the jewish community, were very offended with. we've had movies that people put up with that say, yeah, i don't like it, i don't like the message, but we're america and we're going to put up with it for the greater good. and you see hollywood just go to its knees, bowing to pyongyang and north korea, because, oh, golly, they'll do it again to one of our exhibiters. i still don't get it.

why were the exhibiters so -- somebody in my family called me the other day and said, i'm worried about going to the movie to see this movie, because, you know, it might be dangerous. how did they get to the idea they can jump to actual physical violence? how did that get started, chris? >> well, it actually started with this threat -- >> chris, i'm sorry. chris first. >> well, these are punks sitting behind a computer, okay? they've got no actual ability to physically harm americans on domestic soil. but philosophically speaking, this is an ideological threat. they are threatened by our free speech, and this is their response to it. and i think you're right, to cower is the wrong response. we don't want to -- we don't want them to win in this case. >> i agree. thank you so much, chris. anyway, ted johnson, thank you for talking, for hollywood. coming up, president obama's proving he's no lame duck. in the last couple of weeks, lack at it, he's been doing some big, historic things, as if he's

finally free to be the president he always wanted to be. first, immigration, then cuba, what's next on the list? you might call it the bucket list. i call it the wish list. what's obama going to do next? looks like he's got a whole line of things coming. and this is "hardball," the place for politics.

well, gasoline prices are falling across the country. and that could start making people feel better about the economy. take a look at this. the average price of a gallon of gasoline is now $2.48. that's down 40 cents from just last month. that's regular gas, of course. and about 75% less than it was a year ago. and those falling prices are having a real effect, politically. according to our new nbc news/"wall street journal" poll, half of all americans say declining gas prices are having a great deal or quite a bit of impact on them. that includes large majorities of rule americans as as well as lower income earners. those falling gasoline prices could really jump start the economy and the recovery in this country. and we'll be right back.

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today, the united states of america is changing its relationship with the people of cuba. and the most significant changes in our policy in more than 50 years, we will end an outdated approach that for decades has failed to advance our interests and instead we will begin to normalize relations between our two countries. >> welcome back to "hardball" prp president obama's landmark move on cuba the other day reinforced that he will not behave like a lame-duck president for his final two years in the presidency. it comes just weeks after or nearly after obama acted to give immigration relief via executive action. now he's normalized u.s. ties to cuba on his own. so what else is on the president's list? is it to lift the embargo in cuba, close the prison at guantanamo, gitmo, on the environmental front, will the president veto keystone? michael shere writes, a president unleashed from the hesitancy that characterized

much of his first years in office, mr. obama is now pushing forward aggressively on his promised agenda and ignoring his most ardent critics. joining me now, michael gibbs and michael steele. i never got the sense the president had this, if you will, bucket list. that he was moving along, step by step, incrementally, dealing with boehner and the rest of him. but he seems like he's got something going. do you sense something new here? >> i think the president made some fundamental problemises, dating back to 2007 and 2008. and i think the biggest one you mentioned that's on that list that he would like to see some real progress on is closing the prison at guantanamo bay. i think you take that wish list, though, and you have to break it apart. there's half that list or part of that list you can do through your own policy, and there's another side of that list with stuff that has to go through congress. interestingly enough, some of those issues appear on both

sides. you can empty guantanamo bay by transferring those that have been cleared to transfer, you can't formally close it, though, until congress authorizes you -- >> but you can empty it? >> you can. you can empty, at least a significant amount of it. i think there's probably, there'll still be 30 or so that you have to do something, because you can't bring them to trial and you can't turn them loose or transfer them, but you certainly can transfer them. and we know this, that the transfer process, the president wanting to speed that up, most certainly played a part in chuck hagel's exit, because the white house was definitely chafing at moving those transfers along. >> and greg, too, i can never figure all that. he wanted to get it done and it couldn't get done. do you think this is willful? some sort of psychological, i'm going down with my boots on kind of thing? i may not be able to win them all, but i'm going to go down shooting? >> i think this is, the president is basically throwing the bird up in the air to pretty much everybody in this town and

saying, you know, what -- >> do you think this is offensive? >> no, i don't think it's offensive. i think it's -- >> the way you put it that way -- >> have you ever had that and not been offensive? >> rahm emanuel was known for that pretty well when he was chief of staff. >> i think in his own way, in his very subtle, kind of educated, professorial way, he's basically saying, i'm just going to do this. i'm going to set out and do what i want to do. so we start with the immigration piece, you come back with cuba, the following week, which links into the immigration piece, ties into gitmo and some other things. i think the president is just finding a space where he's comfortable, and has figured out that this time will never work with him, it will never work for him, and therefore he's just going to do his thing and let the chips fall where they may. and i think there's some fallout from that and i hope he's prepared for that. but i think he's got this comfort now of doing what he wants to do. >> if i'm jon meacham, i'll be writing down the things he's

done the last couple of weeks. they belong in the enpsych lowpedia britainic or wikipedia or whatever. castro's still there. i was thinking, how much of this is history. i'm thinking, he's a young guy, he's going to be around a long time after the white house, and i wouldn't be surprised if he's thinking now, i want to be known as the guy who did certain things. maybe for the left, maybe for everybody, maybe for certain groups like hispanics, but i want to have stuff done. it isn't his opponents are making fun of him, but to get something done positively. >> i think you've got to be in a space where you can ignore those folks, those negative energies that are around you in order to do these types of things with confidence. and that's, i think something the president -- >> is that what it was like running the rnc? >> yes, quite a bit! >> i think you're right. look, any president that is looking at this point of their second term on the calendar, understands, when i walk out of here in 15 years, what are people going to look back on as i've had a significant say in

changing, right? obviously, there are a lot of thing in the first couple of years with health care and things like that. there's no doubt that cuba is part of that. i think the cuba policy and the decision is helped by the fact that we've tried something different for 50 years. and i think the president decided that we could give it another 250 and see if cuba changed, or we could do something different and get rid of probably one of our most outdated aspects of our foreign policy, and do something -- >> you know who did this? president clinton did this when he gave a visa to jerry adams. he said, i'm tired of this policy of isolating northern ireland. it's not working with, and it worked and it ended up bringing peace. >> but the different, northern ireland, the catholic protestant wars were in the news. who in the heck is talking about cuba? no one. this is completely outside of

this particular mold. the president saw the low-hanging fruit of the opportunity and he took it. >> i want to talk to some other things. you know stuff we don't know. michael and i are looking at this from the outside in. you've been in. do you think he's -- will he stick to his guns on keystone and say, i don't believe it's good for the environment, it's good for energy policy, i am going to veto that. and as long as i can veto, it ain't going to get done? will he stick to that? >> where they come down on that will be a very good question. i don't know the answer to that and i don't think many people know the answer to that. >> how about opening trade relations with cuba? end the embargo with congress and fighting for that? >> i think he will want to appoint an ambassador, to open an embassy, and end the trade kbargo. that's on the side of the list of things that have to go through congress, normalizing relations is something, is a step you can take, because you're the commander. >> but you have to fight for those things that are going to go through congress. it's a different thing with the president to act with executive authority, but is he now going to fight for the very things he's now jump-started? >> i think there's no doubt when he comes to cuba, he's going to want to.

i think he's taken a significant step. and, look, you mentioned that nobody's talking about cuba. one, because, it isn't on a list of huge threats that we talk about anymore, right? it's not something like north korea -- >> because they're defeated. >> right. >> it's a whole new ball game. plus, the politics of this that scared so many people from making that first step have begun to change. so in 2012 and in 2014, democrats that supported, whether it was president obama or former governor chris that supported changing the kbembarg supported -- >> it's not a loss, about 50/50. a wash. by the way, does the president want hillary clinton to be the next president? >> i think he's met with her a number of times and i'd be surprised if he didn't know that this was coming down. >> he's going to help her? >> i -- there's no doubt he wants a democrat and i think -- >> a democrat? >> well, any and all, but --

>> who else he thinking about? >> i've got to assume that hillary's going to be the nominee. >> does that make you happy personally? >> i think that means that a lot of the things that he's done, whether it's cuba or health care, will stay in place for a long time. >> do you think she's happy lawyering this question? that you can't just answer it? >> i would be more than happy to have hillary clinton -- to call her madame president. >> always looking for peace here. actually, i'm not. thank you, rob gibbs. a brilliant man. >> i enjoyed the moment. >> thank you, michael steele. up next, behind the scenes of what may be the biggest political blunder in a presidential campaign ever. this is humorous, except we know what happened. this guy got killed for this picture, probably. mike dukakis in that helmet, riding around in that tank, way too stupid. a devastating political ad that killed the chance of a man winning the president >> dukakis opposed the stealth bomber and a ground emergency warning system against nuclear

attack. he even criticized our rescue mission to grenada and a strike on libya and now he wants to be our commander in chief. america can't afford that risk. >> anybody who thinks ads don't matter, pay attention to that baby. this is "hardball," the place for politics. if yand you're talking toevere rheumyour rheumatologiste me, about a biologic... this is humira. this is humira helping to relieve my pain and protect my joints from further damage. this is humira giving me new perspective. doctors have been prescribing humira for ten years. humira works for many adults. it targets and helps to block a specific source of inflammation that contributes to ra symptoms. humira can lower your ability to fight infections, including tuberculosis. serious, sometimes fatal infections and cancers,

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welcome back to "hardball." there's a new documentary debuting today on the "hardball" website. it's called "above the fray: the lessons of dukakis '88." the 1988 presidential race between michael dukakis and george h.w. bush is considered one of the most negative races in history. this is the story of that election, told by dukakis himself. how an aggressive, negative campaign can knock off a favorite for president. how a democrat up 17 points in july of election year can lose by 8 points in november. of course, one of the most lasting images of that campaign

was michael dukakis, donning a helmet here, and riding around in a tank, an ill-advised photo op that the bush campaign turned into an unforgettable campaign ad. dukakis talks about that in this new film. >> i was challenging the administration's defense policy on the grounds that it was putting much too little into conventional warfare and much too much into high-tech stuff, that was very expensive and of questionable value. >> don't call mike dukakis soft on defense. today he rolled across the plains of michigan, like george patton on his way to berlin. >> i don't know who at time thought it was a good idea for me to show up in tank and drive around in a tank. pictures in the tank at least two or three times during the campaign as well. but they used it in a commercial. >> the documentary, "above the fray" was produced for nbc.

will, the question i've always wondered about, did dukakis know how stupid he looked? >> this was totally overshadowing a major foreign policy speech he was giving that same day. he wasn't thinking about whether or not to wear a helmet. and as he says in the film, george bush had worn a helmet and raidden around in a tank on camera before as well. so they weren't thinking about optics. >> he should have thought about the fact that george bush sr. had been shot down twice by the japanese when he was still a teenager. >> negative campaigns can really, terrible, hillary clinton is running, they're going to be negative. is it the negativity of the campaign or the failure of the campaign playing defense. what is it that's critical? >> not responding to a charge or an attack against you opens up the door for more attacks. ultimately, the idea is to keep the focus on the other guy, the opponent. and that's what dukakis failed

to do. >> and he taught a lesson, inadvertently, and he started a war room. >> we saw in '92, democrats were tired of losing elections. >> worked the business for clinton and he won because of that. you can watch "above the fray" at msnbc.com/hardball. it will also debut on msnbc's digital channel, shift, tomorrow afternoon at 3:00. and thank you, will robby. up next, how will america respond to that cyberattack the federal government says was from north korea? we'll get to that in the roundtable. plus, a "hardball" salute to the genius of stephen colbert, whose show ends tonight. you're watching "hardball," the place for politics. ... is that? that's about...100 app downloads, 45 hours of streaming music, and 6 hours of video playing. (singing) and five golden rings! ha, i see what you did... (singing) four calling birds...three french hens... (the guys starts to fizzle out) two... turtle... doves... i really went for it there ya you did... you really, really did now get 3 gigs of data on one line for $65 a month.

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i'm milissa rehberger. here's what's happening. senior defense officials confirm u.s. air strikes in iraq have killed three isis liters, including its top military command and the head of isis in iraq. president obama will hold a news conference tomorrow at 1:30 p.m. eastern time before heading to hawaii for a two-week vacation.

we will be carrying that live here on msnbc. a review of the secret service finds the agency needs a change in its culture, following a series of embarrassing breaches. and it was a second day of huge gains on wall street. the dow surged 421 points after a 288-point rally on wednesday. back to "hardball." >> the cyberattack is very serious. we're investigating it, we're taking it seriously. we'll be vigilant. if we see something that we think is serious and credible, then we'll alert the public, but for now, my recommendation would be that people go to the movies. >> we're back. that was president obama reiterating the lack of a credible and serious threat of violence and urging the american people to keep to their routines in the wake of this sony hacking incident. u.s. officials told nbc news yesterday that the administration's investigation has conclude ed north korea was responsible for the hack on

sony. and the ubersuspesual suspects on the news, blaming barack obama and his administration, and sounding a drum beat for stronger action. former speaker of the house, newt gingrich, called it an act of war, and tweeted, no one should kid themselves with the sony collapse, america has lost its first cyberwar. tmz caught up with the 2012 gop presidential candidate, and here's what newt had to say. >> i think we need to recognize, this was an act of war. if we let this precedent stand and people get to run around and do this kind of thing, we're going to live in a nightmare. the guys who did this, we should track down exactly as if it was physical terrorism. >> arizona senator john mccain said that we are yielding to aggressive acts of cyberterrorism, following the decision by sony to cancel the release of the movie. and blame the obama administration. quote, the need for sony pictures to make that decision ultimately arose from the administration's continuing failure to satisfactorily address the use of cyberweapons by our nation's enemies, closed

quote. joining the roundtable, perry bacon, bloomberg's margaret carlson, and republican strategist, john feehery. john, here's what. first of all, the obama administration had very little to do with any of this. it was the sony pictures, the exhibiters, and the distributors, the movie makers and the movie showers, they didn't want to do this. they didn't want a fight, why? >> i think they're worried about other revelations coming out from the hacks, possible strategy on legislation, maybe other things. but this is very serious. and it is cyberterrorism and we do need to have an effective response. and there's plenty of blame to go around. there's been legislation kind of kicking around in the house and senate. there needs to be an effective response, because we cannot allow this stuff to stand. we can't be bullied by a small guy in north korea. >> speaking of bully, it would bug me, if a member of my family was concerned about going to the debuts of this new movie, "the interview," that's causing all of this excitement. and how do you jump from knowing

there's been a cyberattack to fearing violence at the movie theater. they're totally unrelated, and yet people are so nervous that they're willing to believe that north koreans are going to invade their movie theater. your thought? >> you do have this blustery tin pot dictator, who shouldn't believe. >> but hep doesn't have peeps. >> he doesn't have peeps, he doesn't have a plane to crash into a theater. but we found out, it only takes one crazy person to do something. it doesn't really take much organization to terrorize people. >> so threaten to have your barber cut your hair like his. >> like, straight up. >> come out of the barbershop. oh, my god, he got me! >> he's a cartoon character with that haircut. but john mccain hasn't met a war he doesn't want to fight and now he wants to fight a cyberwar. >> but newt's another kettle of fish. when newt starts talking about, we have to track them down. and what are you going to do when you get there? shoot the guy, the president of pyongyang? >> do i find it that north

korea, not the most sophisticated country in terms of technology -- >> we thought that. >> -- was table to break through sony, a great company like that. it is worrisome. cybersecurity is an issue we've talked about a long time, the president has talked about. maybe we should have more discussions and plans about. >> but if we look at it the second time, you say, i have an iphone, i don't know how to build an iphone, but i have one. can't someone in north korea have enough money to go to the guys in the chinese and say, i know about this stuff. not that they know how to do it, they want to do it. >> but where did they get the money to hire the guy? >> where'd they get the hard money to pay enough money to get somebody to hack into sony. >> they have all kinds of slave labor camps in north korea and amassed all kinds of money. the fact is, this is a two-way war. i'm sure that we're fighting the war on our own terms, we don't talk about that. but the chinese and the north koreans and the russians, they are attacking the american economy every day. and we don't know -- >> how do they do it? tell us what's going on. >> they are infiltrating all of

our trade secrets, busting into all kinds of different -- like target, for example. stealing our identities. and we have to fight back, and i don't know how you fight back in an effective way. >> we're not fighting back now. >> i don't think we're fighting back effectively. >> maybe the best way to fight is have an effective defense. >> you've been out there selling this movie on letterman and shows like fallon already, out there selling it, and about to go into the movie theaters at christmastime, the big enchilada for selling movies. they kill it. why do they kill it? because they're afraid. >> they are. >> there's no other statement here. >> but there's a great solution. get netflix to stream it, charge $5. it's viral, everybody watches it, and it's just a slacker movie. a jud apatow slacker movie. >> maybe stars will buy it. remember the kennedys got mad at them for making the movie about the kennedys. they'll buy it and show it. >> since there was no credible threat, show the movie. put it online, put it somewhere.

we don't want to concede to the north koreans. >> i think we look weak. let me ask you something about in american society. again, rand paul, catch this. the republican from kentucky is likely to run for president, we know that, in 2016. well, he's bucking his party once again. paul's supporting president obama's announcement to normalize relations with cuba, which puts him on the opposite side of two potential 2016 rivals, marco rubio and jeb bush. >> the 50-year embargo with cuba just hasn't worked. if the goal was regime change, it sure doesn't seem to be working. and probably, it punishes the people more than the regime, because the regime can blame the embargo for hardship, and if there's open trade, i think that the people will see what it's like to all of the things that we produce under capitalism. so in the end, i think probably opening up cuba is a good idea. >> in the game of hearts, this guy always shoots the moon. he always waits for everybody to

do their thing and he does his thing. >> paul's not alone. jeff flake is a part of this. the thing is, the closer you are to florida and if you're cuban, you feel very strongly about keeping the current policy. the further away you are from florida, the more you represent other interests that want to do trade with florida, with cuba, the more you're more likely to take a deeper look at this. and i think rand paul is right from the economic perspective, but an emotional perspective, if you're marco rubio and your family has been abused by the castro regime, you'll not react nicely to what they did. >> they promised to be democratic liberals -- we all rooted for them as kids and he turned out to be a commie. >> and he's still a commie. >> he is. >> not a comic book notion of a commie, a person who deep down, deeply down in their soul, does not believe in the rights of the individual. only in the power of the state. this is not a social democrat from denmark. this is a communist. and there's a big difference.

>> rand paul, the thing to remember about the primary, aisle not sure this is a great move for him. he's now getting to the point where republicans don't trust him on security issues. this issue aside, he may not be in the mainstream on security issues. you saw ted cruz, marco rubio, and jeb bush all on the other side. not a great -- i'm not sure this is a great look for paul in terms of winning -- >> you mean, he's more -- they're going to say he's more favorable to cuba than israel. >> precisely. >> but he's not worried about being coherent. rand paul just finds unoccupied space and goes there. >> you would actually be surprised. iowa aggies want to export to cuba. >> keep thinking the good thoughts, john. anywhere, the roundtable is staying with us. when we come back, our tribute to the one and only stephen colbert. this is "hardball," the place for politics. how much fuel will be needed to power them? about the same as today? 50% more?

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well, radio listeners up in boston got a surprise today, during a live call-in show, without going governor deval patrick on boston public radio, president obama dialled in and here's what's happened. >> hello? >> hello, you're on, sir, yes, you're on with governor deval patrick. >> uh, governor, this is barack obama, formerly of summerville. >> oh,. >> i've been -- >> come on! >> i've got a few complaints about service in and around the neighborhood. but i've moved down south since that time. >> you're kidding, mr.

president. who is this impersonator? >> i want to ask the governor -- >> who is this impersonator. you're very good. >> i want to find out how it is that you got massachusetts so strong moving in the right direction. >> mr. president, you know i love you, but you still have trouble saying massachusetts, don't you. just say the commonwealth. >> something develops when i say "massachusetts." >> how are you? >> i know how to spell it, though. >> and you know where it is. you've been a great friend to all of us. >> listen, i just wanted to call in. jim, margerie, thank you for letting me do this. i've always wanted to let my dear friend know how proud i am. you know, look, you've got more people working than anytime in the last 25 years, balanced budget, students doing great in school, health care access never been better, clean energy jobs, you know, deval, you've done

good, man. >> thank you. >> great thing about radio, you can have the talking points right in front of you. we're right back after this. twhat do i do?. you need to catch the 4:10 huh? the equipment tracking system will get you to the loading dock. ♪ there should be a truck leaving now. i got it. now jump off the bridge. what? in 3...2...1... are you kidding me? go. right on time. right now, over 20,000 trains are running reliably. we call that predictable. thrillingly predictable.

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tomorrow, i will conclude my final broadcast, say my angry a lukewarm laters, and walk out. and then everything in here will be shredded and sold as industrial meat filler to a national fast food chain. now, i can't say which one, because they are sponsors, but let's just say, it's white

castle. >> back to "hardball." from his early days as a correspondent, if you will,"th, of his own show in 2005, stephen colbert >> the key to its sug e suck was an on-screen character behind the man in a role he once described as, "a well-intentioned, poorly-informed, high-status idiot." that was that satire brimming with fake indignation that made colbert so assessable. his commandeering was insatiable, even endeering. i had the opportunity to test his medal back in 2006. here's what happened after a spirited debate about iraq. >> this is a problem that the president's had -- >> i think i'm winning this interview here.

>> i think i'm beating steve colbert. i think if we were taking a poll right now, you'd be losing at points. >> do you want to arm wrestle? [ cheers and applause ] >> let me show you something. >> break it. break it. break it. >> his show is going to be missed. i'm going to be missed on there. we'll be back with our round table. did you believe what i did there? i put him in a full nelson. as a retort, he pout out a rewad for me. $10 for anyone that gets a picture of matthew eating potatoes. it was so weird. >> he's such a good-hearted guy. >> he just is. and talented. i went and looked up a few things. he was once interviewing harry bellafonte.

they were both singing daay-oo. >> um-hmm. >> it was just purely talent. he jateted across the stage. >> he what? >> that's french for jumping. >> oh, okay. he's a singer, actor playing this horse's ass, right wing dufus. he's done it for nine years. >> can he take that character and translate it on a nightly show. >> do you know who couldn't do that? chevy chase played that wise guy, know-it-all but also confused guy. and then he had his own talk show. he was chevy chase the guy. and he wasn't that character. >> he often had authors on or writhers or maybe non-fail mousz

politicians. he brought people on other shows all the time. it was people i might have learned something from. >> you know what they tell you when you're on the show? act like this is serious. and that made you a fool. you weren't supposed to be in on the joke. you're supposed to be like a henry kissenger. when he wrote his book on china, he said what's the book about? i don't think kisseenjer knew what to say. it's on china, you fool. >> the other guy twho's done it successfully is john oliver on hbo. he had his own character and now he's had big success. you need to take those serious issues and make fun of them. >> it's a satire ends on saturday night. dies on saturday night. it's very hard to do satire. anybody that's ever been caught saying something sarcastically or satirically, they take it flat and you get screwed for it. nobody understands satire. >> if you ask are you kidding,

you're dead. >> john oliver is brilliant. it's full of substance. but you can be the go to "david letterman" and do -- you've got to stay in some character on "david letterman." in many w . >> in many ways, washington is a self parody. if you try to explain washington to people, you'll get a lot of laughs because people aren't going to believe you. >> it's all about how the federal government works. and it was ludicrous. it's true. >> it's true. all the stupidity of it. >> do you know who's getting better? kimmel is getting better. and, of course, jimmy fallon is a hit. but i think satire, the nice thing about him, he's played somebody of your political cut, perhaps to you're right. but he played it in a way that was so goofy and likable. like he always said things that just weren't true. so even the conservatives would

say well, that's not true. and people would say, you know, i like this guy. >> think of what the daily show has produced in terms of talent. i mean, our whole late night. >> it's great writers. let's not kid yourself. the best tonight. my friend and, of course, mark carlson, my very old -- well, a young person. [ laughter ] >> john feary was at the house last night for our "hardball" party. thank you, all. we'll be right back. you can get out of the c-max hybrid. it's about how much life you can fit into it. ♪ the ford c-max hybrid. with an epa-estimated range of 540 miles on a tank of gas. and all the room you need to enjoy the trip. go stretch out. go further.

hank stuver, the washington post today put him up there with mark twain and will rogers, i can do no better than that, anyone? satire closes on saturday night meaning a good show lasts no more than a week. well, steven colbert lasted almost 500 weeks. nine years he's been on the air playing that stubborn, uninformed right winger who is so uninformed he helps the rest of us get it right. i remember him being truly mean in a business of killing audiences where saying you had a good night in comedy. he made us happy, always happy.

the dunce hef was playing was s hilariously out of it. i thank mr. colbert for being so good, so good foe us, so good if i'm not being too pop pass here, for our country. soon, we will learn who the real steven colbert is when he takes over for david letterman. i think we're going to like this guy. a lot. that's "hardball" for now, "all in" starts right nou. >> tonight on "all-in." >> we do regard the attack on sony as very serious. >> the u.s. government addresses the crimes against sony and debates whether they're an act of war. and the self censorship mounts as paramount tells leaders not to warn team america world police. then, a witness in ferguson speaks out for the first time. witness 40 says prosecutors knew about her racial slurs. and in the wake ofre