think in the long-term, it's going to make a lot of money. >> that's it for "the ed show" tonight. "politicsnation" with reverend al sharpton starts right now. >> good evening, craig. >> good evening, sir. >> and thanks to you for tuning in. we start tonight with breaking news on the murder of two new york city police officers. today, an outpouring of grief with people leaving flowers and lighting candles at the site of the shooting in brooklyn, honoring the fallen officers, rafael ramos and wenjian liu. they were shot at point-blank range on saturday while sitting in their patrol car, going about their normal business. this afternoon, new york mayor bill de blasio paid visited to the home of both officers, meeting with their families, including the two sons officer

ramos leaves behind. >> they are in tremendous pain and they are worried deeply. in the ramos family case, two teenagers, reminded me of my own children, who now don't have a father. you have two teenage young men, good young men who no longer have a father because of an assassin. it was very difficult for sheryleen and i to talk to two kids that we saw parallel to our own children, hear them trying to put on a brave face, trying their best to make sense of such a painful situation. they were incredibly admirable, impressive young men. i told them that i lost my own dad when i was 18. and that as painful and difficult as it is, families come together, people find a way forward and i also told them we would all be there for them. >> the mayor today called on a

suspension of demonstrations until after the officers have been laid to rest. both he and police commissioner william bratton said they hope this tragedy leads to some progress. >> the most important reflection i can give you right now is, in this tragedy, maybe we find some way of moving forward, that it would be an appropriate way to honor these fallen officers and their families that are in pain right now, somehow knit our city together. >> out of crises comes opportunities and challenges. i intend to embrace the opportunities and challenges as we address these crises. we'll come out of this better and stronger as we go forward. >> this tragedy struck a deep nerve. officer ramos was 40 years old, a three-year veteran of the police force, and a father of two sons. friends and family say he hoped to become a chaplain. officer liu was 32 years old.

he'd been on the force seven years, and he was newly married. his wedding, just three months ago. let me be perfectly clear. this was an act of senseless violence. these were new york's finest, doing their work, protecting the city, protecting our community. we're mourning their loss and we are all outraged and saddened by the death of these police officers. any use of the names of eric garner or michael brown in conjunction with violence, or the killing of police, is reprehensible. i and others have called for stopping violence, not perpetuating it. as we mourn the deaths of these officers, we must be focused, though, on solving deep-seeded problems. not exacerbating them. joining me now is the widow of eric garner and eric garner's

mother. thank you both for being here tonight. >> thank you so much for having us. >> you've been calling for peace since your husband was the victim of the chokehold case, and you and your mother-in-law have stood yesterday and identified with the pain of these officers' families. what is your thought in the wake of this tragedy? >> i think that it's horrible. i think that there's another wife out there without her husband coming home that night. there's another children that don't have their father to come home at night. there's christmas coming. you know, the holidays are less than three days away. i don't even know if i'm going to be okay in three days, but i just want to express my condolences to the families of the officers, the wife, the children, and everyone else in new york city. and i still call for peace. you know. >> miss carr, your son from day

one, you said, when we all spoke, that you do not want anything that would in any way reflect anything but peaceful demonstrations and some recall in terms of policy. and now that your son's name and michael brown's name has been part of what this person that killed these policeman had written in social media, what's your response to eric's name being involved in this? >> we don't want eric's name used in anything dealing with violence. we are definitely non-violent. we would have never condoned these police officers -- this is just a true tragic for them for them to be sitting in the car and someone just take their life away from them like that. i know how those families feel. if they have a mother, wife,

children. i know their pain because i feel that pain. and this shouldn't happen to anyone. i expressed that so many times after my son passed. this tragedy, i wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. >> you know, esaw, i grew up in brooklyn and i know cops. and i've said a thousand times, i question some police policies, but i think most cops are good. we talk about individual cops. these guys were in the neighborhood protecting people. and one of the things that moved me and a lot of people today, your daughter emerald -- >> yes. >> -- who's been dealing with a lot of the youth projects. she went to the site today and laid a wreath today and voiced her support for the families. your daughter, she visited the memorial. tell us about that. >> i just found out about it. she just called me about maybe an hour or so ago, she said mommy, i went -- >> this is the scene. i'm showing where the policeman was killed.

and she went to the site with some of the youth from the huddle. >> yes, she called me and she said, mommy, i went because i feel like, you know, even though my dad was killed in that way, these officers shouldn't have been blamed for anything that happened to her father. it's totally two different situations. and she said she felt that she had to go and represent the family and put some flowers down, or whatever, and make her statement and, you know, express her condolences. >> i think sometimes people that raise questions like it's us against them, rather than seeking how we have a society that's fair for everybody. >> everybody. >> we're not against anybody. we are trying to make sure people are held accountable that do things that we feel are against what society should be about. >> exactly. we want those who exercise bad

policing to be held accountable. not innocent police officers. >> not innocent police. my mother lives in that matter. matter of fact, eric and myself got married in the church right across the street. >> is that right? >> from where this happened? >> yes. rose baptist church it's right there on the corner. >> from where these officers were killed? >> right up the block, on myrtle, and i believe it's sumner -- >> tompkins. >> tompkins and myrtle avenue. we got married in that church. my mom lives not too far from there. i had two kids in that hospital. i grew up there. >> and that's the hospital these officers were brought to where they died on saturday night. >> yes. >> where the mayor went? >> yes. chardonnay, my oldest daughter and erica was born in woodhall hospital. my mom lives right up the block. >> so close in the same area, yet so estranged by how people try to play petty politics with

the pain on all sides. we got to stop that. >> because i feel the family's pain. >> esaw snipes garner and gwen carr thank you both for coming on and talking to us tonight. >> thank you for having us. >> we'll be right back. >> okay.

coming up, the investigation into the assassination. we have new details on what authorities are learning about the man who came to new york and executed two police officers. and police are now looking at new surveillance video, taken just hours before the shooting. what can it tell us? plus, we have breaking news tonight out of north korea, where there is a widespread internet outrage. is this a cyber attack? what is going on? and will "the interview" be released? sony is open to the idea. tonight that all is coming up.

please stay with us.

we have a deeply troubled career criminal, previously suicidal individual who did this heinous crime, who assassinated two police officers. it's a horrible thing. >> a horrible thing from a deeply troubled career criminal. and today we're learning more about that deeply troubled past of 28-year-old ismaaiyl brinsley. he had a long criminal record. he was arrested 19 times, spent two years in prison for gun possession. tried to kill himself and

threatened police online. and tonight mayor de blasio and commission bratton released new video of the shooter. it shows him walking around a subway terminal in brooklyn. he's carrying a bag. officials think the gun was inside. but after this moment around noon, police do not know where he goes for more than two hours. here's what we know. around 5:30 saturday morning, he showed up at his ex-girlfriend's apartment in maryland, near baltimore. he shot her. right now she's in critical condition. but she's stable. he then took a bus from baltimore to new york, around 2:45, brinsley shot and killed two police officers. joining me now is dr. cedric alexander, the president of the national organization of black law enforcement executives. thank you for being here. >> thank you for having me.

>> clearly a guy with mental problems and disturbing views. what are investigators looking for to find out today, cedric? >> well, i'll tell you what, nypd has done an incredible job in terms of putting together a lot of information in a chronological manner, which kind of begins to tell the story leading up to the assassination of those police officers. nypd is very capable. they have the resources, they have the training, they have the expertise and experienced investigators there that i can assure you they're going to get down to what occurred, how it occurred, right from the beginning, right up until the end. and it's very sad. it's very tragic. even here in the state of georgia and across this country, we all are very saddened by this horrific act of violence towards police officers who was out there doing their job, protecting the community. >> what else do police need to find out? it seems like they have a lot on

motive from just social media. >> i think one thing that needs to be determined, i'm quite sure they'll look into this, to make sure if anyone else was involved in the planning and the execution of those officers, they're going to seek them out. so i think, as they continue to pull together information through their sources and through the technology they'll use as well, if there are any other individuals out there involved, if this was planned, anyone who got their fingerprints on this, they need to be brought to njustice. >> they did say today they believe he acted alone. that statement was made by the police commissioner and the mayor, i believe the governor. but you're saying they must continue to pursue every item that make sure that that is correct information? >> and i'm quite certain that's exactly what they're going to do. this is just the beginning of their investigation. i'm quite sure at the end, they'll make sure they're as thorough as possible in terms of

making any other determinations that might be surrounding this case that might be informational to them or to the community. >> already, cedric alexander, thanks so much for your time. >> thank you for having me too. >> joining me now, the former governor of the state of new york, david patterson. governor, thank you for being here. >> thank you. i wish it was under better circumstances, reverend. i remember the shooting of the city councilman who had once been a police officer, james davis, right in the city hall. and the shootings on the long island railroad and some shootings that were shootings, but no one paid the price for them that we've been through. but this is one of the worst that i can ever remember. >> where do we go from here? you've been the governor of the this state, lieutenant governor, state senator, and you've dealt with a lot of these situations. but this seems to have really hit a real nerve, a tragedy with

these two policemen. then we've had the one by one police killings that have been questioned by the community. where do we go from here? as one who has been on both sides of this, in the black community, and as the head of this state. >> well, i call it the principle of duality. the idea is that, i think we should all recognize, and i'm sitting here recognizing myself, that no matter how much i try to sympathize with police officers and their family, unless i was in their shoes, i really wouldn't know the anxiety and tension that they feel every day, when their loved ones are out at work, knowing they may not come home. and particularly on the saturday before christmas. all of us have to stop for a minute and think about the pain that the people in law enforcement endure. at the same time, there is a history of different types of practices in minority communities, particularly black

communities, if you go back and read old newspaper articles, there was a riot in harlem in 1943, 1945, and 1964 when a lieutenant named thomas gilligan shot a 15-year-old choild who was black, named james powell for turning on a water sprinkler and then kicked his body, rolling it over to see if he was still alive. that ignited six nights of rioting in 1964. and all i'm trying to say is that i don't think that people who live outside the community really understand what it's like when your children go out and you fear the crime in the neighborhood, but you also fear the law enforcement practices. they think it's kind of a joke when people sit here on television like myself and say that. but i've had four members of my family assaulted by the police -- >> of your family? >> of my family. starting with my father who was pistol whipped in 1942 when he's

16 years of age, because the policeman thought he'd stolen a baseball mitt when he was coming back from stick ball practice. so i'm just saying that the same way you see the anger right now of the officers because people don't understand what they go through, they're angry at different elected officials who they feel are stirring up the problem. and look, if that's how they feel, maybe we'll come together if we start to acknowledge that no one is lying here. the police officers do have a lot to ask the public to understand about their jobs. and the public does -- and we'll talk about it more later. right now this is a time of grief, but the public does have a right to demand better services in certain communities where young, particularly black males, were stopped routinely and randomly. >> i think you said something very critical. no one is lying here.

there's real anxiety and need on both sides. and i think, you know, there's been a lot of attacks. even i've been named in some. i think we have to rise above the petty tit for tat, and look at the big picture that there needs to be real understanding and changes here. because people aren't making this stuff up. >> i think when i first started as a state centsenator, and i'm looking back on it now, i didn't really understand what the police went through. i think i was unnecessarily hard on them at the time. i really can apologize for that. all i'm asking is that those on both sides recognize that at times, all the people who have complained about these practices that were in harlem and in bedford stifrson and south jamaica and south bronx, that all these people can't be wrong. there must have been something different than the regular rules, that's why the complaints

were coming from these neighborhoods. not because the crime was high, but because the service was low. >> and policemen are in the middle of some places where they do have fear and have anxiety. but at the same time, and again, i think those in the community understand that and more need to because we are dealing in communities where we need policing. at the same time, there has to be understanding that if you see a man on tape and he's choked and he's saying, i can't breathe, what it says, the fear it puts in the community, i think that you're dealing with people that are talking at each other and there are those that never want us talking to each other. >> exactly. and i'll tell you something, in one respect police get a bad rap. traditionally in these communities, the landlords jack up the rents. the store owners wouldn't hire anybody from the community. you couldn't get a decent education in the schools. the health care facilities were inferior. the prices were jacked up higher

than they were in other neighborhoods because they knew people couldn't get out of the neighborhood to go shop because no one would let them in those stores. and who did they send in to calm the sweltering feelings? the police. so they were the first point of where some of that anger would get fomented and it's not ent e entirely their fault. a lot of it has to do with the society that was always antagonistic to people who lived in these neighborhoods. >> let's try to keep looking at the big picture and solve the real problems of policing and of community. governor david patterson, thanks so much for your time and your perspective. >> thank you for having me, reverend. coming up, we'll have developing news from north korea tonight. north korea's internet has gone dark. is it a cyber attack? or another question. should dick cheney be prosecuted for torture? there are calls for legal action

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first, senator paul tweeted, senator rubio is acting like an isolationist who wants to retreat to our borders and perhaps build a moat. i reject this isolationism. and senator rubio rejected that tweet. >> well, first of all, rand, if he wants to become the chief cheer leader of obama's foreign policy, he has the right to do that. he has the right to become a supporter of president obama's foreign policy. >> rand paul, if he wants to. >>a line himself and become a supporter of the obama foreign policy particularly towards cuba, that's his right. he has a right to do that. >> but paul fired right back, with a senior adviser telling politico, rubio was, quote, captain of the gop cheerleading team for obama's arming of syrian rebels, bombing libya,

resulting in a jihadist wonderland and illegally giving foreign aid to egypt's military government. while they fight over it, president obama is promising to push ahead with his own plans in 2015. >> we have every right to be proud of what we've accomplished. more jobs, more people insured, a growing economy. pick any metric that you want, america's resurgence is real. we are better off. my presidency is entering the fourth quarter. interesting stuff happens in the fourth quarter. and i'm looking forward to it. >> where i see a big problem and the opportunity to help the american people and it is within my lawful authority to provide that help, i'm going to do it. >> he's not going to stop taking these bold actions. if they cause more rifts on the right, that's just an extra christmas present for all to

enjoy. joining me now are e.j. dionne and joan walsh. thank you for being here. >> good to be with you, reverend. >> i want to get to the president in just a moment, but first, e.j., this is supposedly the season of giving. if republicans can't get along, seems like they're giving democrats a lot of gifts, doesn't it? >> it does feel that way. i think this fight between rand paul and marco rubio is really interesting, because it's not a one-off fight. you remember that rand paul had a big fight some months ago with rick perry over foreign policy. >> right. >> ron paul saying that ronald reagan actually didn't like sending american troops abroad and perry saying he was an interventionist. now again you're seeing this ron paul, libertarian foreign policy that says what's the point of cutting a country off, let's engage with them. and what he's showing is, he's going to run as rand paul in the

election. and he thinks there's a constituency in the republican for a different kind of foreign policy. it's a generational split too. if you look at cuban americans, older cuban americans agree with marco rubio. but younger cuban americans are much closer to where rand paul and the president are. >> no doubt about it. you know, joan, the president called this a breakthrough year. today the white house detailed some of his accomplishments. check out this list. he pushed for minimum wage hikes in cities and states across the country. many were raised. he raised wages for federal contractors, made it easier to repay student loans, prevented deportation of millions of undocumented immigration. signed historic agreement to cut greenhouse grasses. and let's not forget, re-establish ties with cuba. especially after the mid terms, did anyone expect such a productive year, joan? >> no, i don't think anybody

did, on the left or the right. certainly on cuba, there was not a whole lot of preparation for that. and i think that his poll numbers have climbed, reverend al. he's doing better than he's done in over a year. i think it's because of the american people like the fact that somebody is leading. he's keeping his campaign promises, and they feel like something's going on. yeah, there's gridlock, congress is dysfunctional, but this man has taken these steps to make life better for people when he can. >> you know, e.j., your column today lays out how tough it would be for republicans to roll back some of his accomplishments. let me quote e.j. to e.j. as i often do. obama has shown he can still accomplish a lot on his own. the harder test will be whether he can advance ideas and arguments that strengthen the ability of his allies to sustain his policies beyond the life of his presidency.

how does the president strengthen his allies? >> well, i think he continues to advance arguments and puts forward ideas and makes the republicans choose. do they kill these ideas? or do they actually pass them and allow things to go forward? what i have in mind is the core idea that if you really want wages to grow, we have the unemployment rate coming down, we have economic growth. we still need wages to go up. and there are a bunch of things government can do to help that. one is, let's invest in our infrastructure. it's crazy that washington can't even build roads anymore, or mass transit. we talks about pre-k and helping people with student loans. i think there's a whole agenda on workers' rights, not only minimum wage, but overtime and family leave. he can put ideas on the table, and either the republicans go along, but in the likely event that they block it, there's an argument democrats can have in

2016, saying, do you want to go ahead with these ideas that president obama put forward and that progressives believe in? and i think ronald reagan was very good at that, to the detriment of those who are progressive. i think president obama can do the same. >> now, joan, i want to go back to something e.j. referred to, generational. >> sure. >> because when you look at immigration and cuba, there's a generational divide in the reaction to both these issues that is very clear. >> yeah, and i think that the president has put the party on good footing in terms of trying to reach millenials of every race, with these steps he's taking. and e.j. is totally right. we do have -- we've made progress on unemployment. but we've not made progress on wages. the president will not have a lot of help from republicans. won't have any help probably. lay out the agenda for making people's lives better, even if

he can't get it done with this congress. because whoever runs in 2016 will need a compelling story about rebuilding the middle class and the american dream because it's falling apart. >> thank you both for your time tonight. >> thank you, reverend. and joan. coming up, should dick cheney be prosecuted for torture? calls tonight for eric holder to open a criminal investigation. plus, developing news tonight. internet outrage cutting north korea off from the rest of the world. and will "the interview" movie be released after all? sony is talking about it and we will too. "conversation nation" is next. i take prilosec otc each morning for my frequent heartburn. because it gives me... zero heartburn! prilosec otc.

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dave, i'm sorry to interrupt... i gotta take a sick day tomorrow. dads don't take sick days, dads take nyquil. the nighttime, sniffling, sneezing, coughing, aching, fever, best sleep with a cold, medicine. time now for "conversation nation." joining us tonight, huffpost live host caroline modarressy-tehrani. "new york times" reporter josh barrel. and legal analyst and host of "judge faith," faith jenkins. north korea's internet goes out.

a u.s. official says north korea's internet access has been cut off from the rest of the world. it had been failing for several days and is now totally down. out. in the dark. it comes three days after president obama promised proportional response against north korea. u.s. officials strongly deny any role in it. analysts that monitor internet usage telling bloomberg, i don't know that someone is launching a cyber attack against north korea, but this isn't normal for them. >> what do you make of this? >> it seems like our primary objective here should be stopping whoever did this from doing similar things in the future, whether that's through deterrence, or shutting off their ability to interfere. i don't know if the u.s. was behind this, but i feel good about the prospect of the north koreans not having internet access and -- >> you don't know if they're responsible, but it would not

bother you? >> it would not bother me. >> i was going to say, revenge is a dish best served cold. what is colder than total internet black-out. if we were behind it, i would silently be clapping and i'm pretty sure james franco and seth rogen area as well. >> judge, what's your version? >> north korea's internet access is tenuous at best to begin with, but i don't believe in coincidenc coincidences. we know they're experiencing this black-out and it hasn't really happened before and it comes on the helm of this cyber attack against sony and the reports that that's being leaked to north korea. so perhaps maybe anonymous got involved. could be some rogue hackers, we don't know, but it's not necessarily a bad thing. >> josh, when the president said proportional response, that got a lot of reaction. we don't want a military response. some said maybe a response like this. so is this a better response, if

in fact this is the government? we don't know. >> to the extent we're concerned about cyber attacks, i think something that harms their cyber infrastructure makes sense. my concern, if it was north korea behind the sony attack, they would figure out they could use the tools for purposes other than protecting kim jong-un's ego. the government didn't have a plan for responding to this. we have plans if somebody attacks the power grid, or a financial institution. what if somebody embarrasses a bunch of hollywood executives by leaking their e-mail? but it could be done against a lot more targets, causing a lot more damage which is why it's important to have a response to discourages further attacks. >> it is a new world. cyber terrorism, cyber attacks, it's a whole new world now. >> it is. and this whole incident just shows how north korea may have

thought they were ahead of the game, about you you shouldn't discount the united states. that is the moral of the story. because they will come and get you, if it is the united states government and they'll get you good. >> because we'll never know. right? the u.s. government will probably never acknowledge it. but and the government really isn't in the business of attacking another country's internet. normally when you see us involved in or looking at internet access in other countries it's a defense mechanism, or you're looking at potential terrorists. >> now to a question of, should people be prosecuted for torture? the aclu is calling for attorney general holder to open a criminal investigation into the torture program. and the "new york times" editorial board wants to prosecute torturers. no amount of legal pretzel logic can justify the behavior detailed in the report. indeed it is impossible to read it and conclude that no one can

be held accountable. at the very least, mr. obama needs to authorize a full and independent criminal investigation. "the times" calling for former vice president dick cheney and other bush officials to be included in any investigation. carolyn, should dick cheney and others be prosecuted? >> yeah, i think they should. and i think "the new york times" outlined this extremely well. what kind of precedent does it set, if president obama says, we've just had this horrendous torture report released, yes, this is terrible, but we need to look forward now. no, you can't just look forward. you must look back. i would also add the caveat, if you're going to talk about prosecuting those responsible for the torture, you should consider pardoning those who have already been held and charged with a crime, who is the whistle-blower in all of this, the only person who has been implicated and actually tried. i think dick cheney should be

prosecuted, but also the president needs to take it upon himself to pardon the whistle-blowers. >> in our country, if you look at our system of justice, we take into -- when someone commits a crime, unless the statute of limitations has run, we hold these people accountable for committing crimes. if you look at the international treaty that we are a part of, the convention against torture, don't torture, and that people who do are prosecuted for torture. and no one, no matter how senior, can be above the law. it's not just a matter of law. it's a matter of principle. how can we as a country, go forward and try to influence other countries to prosecute people who torture if we don't do it ourselves? >> josh, your view? >> i'm on the news side. i have nothing to do with what the ed board says. >> chinese wall. >> the greatest value that would come out of a prosecution would be a public airing of exactly what happened here. an extension of the value that was in the senate torture report

itself. but i'd note that's a report that the cia tried to get not released and the obama administration was trying very hard to delay and prevent seeing the light of day. so i think the reason you won't see a criminal investigation well, it's partly about protecting people involved in this, but even more about protecting the secrets that would have to be aired publicly in order to have a criminal trial. the goal for policy makers in washington should be to prevent this from happening again. trials are an important part of that, but since we're not going to have one, we should be figuring out what else we can do to rein in the cia. >> i'll keep following this. dick cheney will be following this. stay with us. when we come back, happy birthday to senator ted cruz. and my message to the champ, muhammad ali. stay with us.

we're back with the panel, caroline, josh, and faith. should an american prisoner of war be punished? sergeant bowe bergdahl was held by the taliban for nearly five years after he disappeared from his base in afghanistan in 2009. the army has just wrapped up an investigation into his case which will likely determine whether bergdahl was captured by the taliban, or whether he deserted his station. now a u.s. general will decide

if he should be charged. he could face punishment ranging from loss of back pay, to a court-martial. faith, should he face punishment? >> it depends on the results of the army's investigation. did he desert his base in 2009? if he was captured, what were the circumstances of him being a prisoner of war all of those years? those are the questions they'll have to answer to come up with a decision moving forward. >> josh, there's a lot of passionate people on both sides of this on whether he was a deserter, whether he was a prisoner of war. >> well, i think this is a case, a good example -- >> or a hostage, or whatever the term should be. >> i think it's a good example of why you need prosecutor iial judgment. in terms -- discretion. the question, do you need a

prosecution to discourage other soldiers from deserting to create a sense that someone who put soldiers in harm's way because so much work had to be done to rescue him, is there a feeling in the military that that needs to be punishment? i think the question for the generals is, does the military need a trial of bowe bergdahl? if the answer to that is no, then five years in a p.o.w. camp was enough. >> isn't the answer to that if he put others at risk. people are saying when he surfaced, he's acting strange. i don't know anyone that wouldn't act strange after five years with the taliban. isn't it going to boil down to whether he intentionally put other american military men and women at risk? >> well, i would also hope it would boil down to what was his psyche? what was the psychological reasons for him deserting his post? i mean, we were not in that battle space. i am not a member of the armed forces. god bless all of those who go out and risk their lives every

day and do unimaginable things. we were not in that battle space. we have no idea his psychology. those we hope in the army that are actually looking at his case, this four-star army general who has been tasked to look at his case and the ramifications of this, will have all the that information. but like josh and faith have said, five years in a prisoner of war camp should, you know, be enough. whether or not we don't have information in the general public that perhaps the army general is privy to that would say, no, he should be court-martialed, he should be tried for this, i don't know. but from the information i have at my disposal, i would say we don't know enough about his psychology. we should just say, okay, draw a line -- >> but are generals qualified to really test his psychology? >> well, i think the key question is not so much his psyche unless he was insane or something, which i don't think anybody has suggested. >> or ptsd. we could have any number of

psychological issues going on. >> but so many soldiers serve without deserting their post. i think it's a cop-out to say afghanistan is so difficult it's understandable. that said, i think it's a question of does the military need this trial for people to feel -- >> we'll see. carolyn, josh and abbey, thank you for your time tonight and happy holidays to all of you. >> thank you. >> judge faith. >> before we go, i want to send a prayer to our good friend, the champ, boxing legend muhammad ali was admitted to the hospital over the weekend with pneumonia. his condition is improving and doctors hope he'll be home soon. i've grown close with ali over the years and wish him my prayers for a speedy recovery. get better, champ. we'll be right back.

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because, hey, pee happens. days after the tragedy in brooklyn, the families of the

fallen officers continue to mourn as a city and nation deal with the aftermath of the two nypd officers gunned down senselessly. what happened that afternoon was incomprehensible. officers rafael ramos and wenjian liu were protecting the citizens of the community, doing a good job, a brave one. liu had recently married. ramos was a married father of two. he just celebrated his 40th birthday. now because of a senseless and cowardly act, we're left hearing the painful voices of the families left grieving. >> i hope and pray that we can reflect on this tragic loss of lives that have occurred so that

we can move forward and find an amicable path to a peaceful co-existence. >> many of us have said this over and over. violence is not the answer. >> if you're on michael brown's side, you walk with dignity. if you're on michael brown's side, you stand up with pride and call to uphold the law. if you do anything to harm others, you are on your own side. you're not on brown's side. we are on the side of michael brown to fight for what is right. >> there's one thing we have to be brave enough to fight the good fight together. and that fight must always reach for the higher moral principles. we cannot become like the elements that we are fighting. ghandi said, if we live in a world where it's eye for an eye,

the whole world goes blind. it's time for those of us that can see to help show the way out of this darkness. thanks for watching. i'm al sharpton. "hardball" starts right now. >> cop killers. let's play "hardball." ♪ ♪ good evening, i'm chris matthews in washington. my hero winston churchill knew just where he stood. i refuse to be impartial, he once said, between the fire brigade and the fire. and all these incidents of recent months in which police officers were involved and blamed for misconduct or worse, tried to let the juries do the job. i've acted as a reporter and observer, not as a judge, juror, or prosecutor. i didn't have enough