said and cherif kouachi are holed up in a printing plant. we heard what may have been flashbangs. the first sign that authorities perhaps were ready to bring this stand off to an end. you also see visible smoke. for the first time coming from this location. just outside of paris. near the airport. we have can sandrakassandra. did you marryhear me? >> yes. >> what just played out. as you see on images there is smoke what appear to be flashbang grenades going off. it seems like the french authorities over seven hours of a standoff decided to go in to the printing facility in this small town. there's been a huge police presence all day. helicopters overhead. it looks like they are moving in

to end the siege. >> i'm going ask my team to rerack that sound. while they're doing that. let's go through the last seven hours here. how authorities discover the two individuals. the brothers inside that plant and the communication negotiators have had with the two individuals >>well the two brothers responded by police driving to the turnaround 9:30. we heard there was shots fired and the brothers holed up in this small family run printing company.

they're they're believed to have one hostage if not more. on a normal day there are typically five to seven employees in the printing center. it's been unclear how many hostages they've been holding. >> i'm going it get you to hang on. i have with me nbc news terrorism analyst evan coleman with us and mikey kay standing by. you see the activity now for the first time. look at the top of the building. you see an individual at the top of the building. evan and mikey, there are two people now at the top of the building. do you believe we're seeing authorities now moving in here? >> yeah, i mean, it's hard to tell from the picture. the onscene commander will be assessing risk they're assessing risk in terms of probability and consequence. it's called dynamic. as we saw in sydney. there will be a tipping point when they decide it is better

for the protection of the life of the risk to the life of the individuals being held it's better for them to go in rather than to stand off. the situation appears to be having gone dynamic. we can see people on the roof. they're trying to cover it from every angle. you'll have snipers on rooftops and the primary team cooking the door down. the flashbangs went off. we heard shots. you'll see a little bit of the smoke there. that's probably coming from the flashbangs. i think we have now got past the point when the onscene commander made the decision to take activity for the safety of the hostage. >> the danger it's not like what we saw in australia. this individual is not arnled with a shut don. these individuals are heavily armed. they were trying to build explosive devices. anyone on the roof is in danger.

we'll have to see what plays out. that's the idea with the flashbangs to disorient the individuals. prevent them from firing back. there could be as many as seven hostages inside. evan, the addition if this is the decision to make a move whether there is one or seven innocent people inside early on there was belief that the paris officials would not move unless the hose tajs were in danger. >> yeah. according to eye witnesses the individuals announced they intended to be killed as martyrs and intended to go out in a flame of bullets. that would be what we have seen in the past. the individuals were trying to free an al al gear began terrorist. you have seen a number of

shootouts that ended up violent. one in 1996 the entire house collapsed on the people inside of it. we'll see what plays out. there's a history of violence shootouts involving the jihadists in france. >> while we don't know the technology or communications the two brothers have with others on the outside, what can we assume is they know they're surrounded. they know they would be outnumbered. so yes, a shootout may be on their mind. reality at some point in a delusional mind. these are individuals who shot and killed 12 people. they know what is on the other side of the wall. >> yeah. it's an complex scenario for the commander to try to assess. the assessment of the potential outcome and the contingency plans are just -- it's unpredictable. for example, if you decide or she decides they want to send a team in you know, these guys may have booby-trapped the

place. >> and that's the risk with waiting seven hours to go in. the officers potentially fresh minds. these two men have been on the run. they've had seven hours inside that building. >> it's a game of two halves. it's a double edged sword. on the one hand the amount of time that goes by could benefit the perpetrator. on the other hand the amount of time the perpetrators could be getting tired. they could make a mistake. that might exploit an opportunity for the onscene commander to initiate an attack. every situation is different. there's another hostage situation in paris. a gunman armed with a machine gun entered a kosher supermarket killing two people.

the suspect inside that market at the second location is a close friend of the kouachi brothers. he's been identified as amedy amedy coulibaly. there are reports that the individual demanded the release of the kouachi brothers. we have a reporter at that scene as well. if we can get our nbc producer live on the phone. as we continue to watch. let's keep the shot up what is happening a the printing plant'. let's get on the phone. chatman bell are you there? >> i'm here. as this police operation has grown over the last few hours, the cordon has widened as the hostage situation has unfolded. there are hundreds of police here armed with automatic

weapons, rifles as well as side arms as well as -- and they are all around this area. surrounding this supermarket where this siege began several hours ago. >> we apologize for the technical difficulty here. >> police are being -- >> let me bring in clint. clint is joining me here with evan coleman and mikey kay. let's talk about you have the two situations evan, playing out. one individual linked to the kouachi brothers. he's taken authorities believe two lives in this kosher market that was likely very busy given the day of the week. >> yeah. it's interesting the link between the men. we understand now this coulibaly individuals he was put on trial with one of the kouachi brothers in a plot to try to free one of the individuals responsible for the 1995 paris metro bombings. the individuals are not just friends, they actually were

allegedly conspirators in a previous terrorist plot together. mr. kouachi, apparently when he jumped into the market and started taking hostages and parentally he yelled you know who i am. so, you know, there does appear to be more than just a consequences link here. >> we know there's a 26-year-old boumeddiene that happens to be a accomplice of coulibaly. these people have been described as a terror cell that has been waiting for perhaps this moment. >> that's interesting, actually. there are associates of the individuals who have gone on and done all sorts of things. one of the guys who was associated with them working with them and assassinated tu knee shan politician. it's interesting. these guys they are the usual suspects. they're individuals well known to french authorities.

they were known to american authorities. they were on a no fly list for years in the united states. i think that's the troubling part here. trying to understand how the guys managed to slip through the net given they weren't unknown. they were known. >> mikey? >> tamron it's important to say now that france is unique in terms of the vulnerability of faces of islamic extremism. we shouldn't make the same parallels in terms of what effect it has on the u.s. or the u.k. there are over 1200 islamicstreamislam icic extremists -- >> hang on. let's go bill neely. >> after the horror of the charlie hebdo massacre, that was almost -- police initially said it had nothing do with terrorism. that was some kind of criminal act. now we know quite differently. it's also quite clear that all these gunmen were known to french anti-terror police.

no signs within the last few minutes. i think it was about ten minutes ago that we heard a burst of automatic gunfire and colleagues of mine heard some explosions and saw smoke in the distance. but clearly we are into the end game here. >> that is bill neely who is right outside one of our nbc colleagues with a report there. clint, you're standing by as well. you've watched what bill neely was referring to. we watched play out about ten minutes ago. we heard a flash regrade or what is believed to be a flash grenade. three individuals atop a portion of the roof. we haven't seen any activity. from your expertise, and again, from what we're watching play out, what can you add to -- what potentially are seeing here. >> yeah, there was a number of things going on. the on scene commander was looking at the cost-benefit

analysis. they made a decision it was getting dark. it may be harder to see. there was a letthreat level. somebody made the situationdecision we're going to act now. what the tactical team would do they would have a negotiator on the line. they'll be talking to one or the other of the subjects trying to lull them to a since of complacency. at that time the tactical team threw in probably two or three flash grenades. the purpose of the grenades are to disorient anyone inside. the two shooters then members of gign the french tactical team the equivalent perhaps of u.s. army delta members of gign would go in with the sole purpose of dealing with anybody who is holding a gun. eliminate the shooter and rescue a hot damage. it was very standard. it captured our attention for

two days. these are things that tactical teams like the fbi's team u.s. army delta, navy seals they train for these missions all the time. gign has done it for 30 or 40 years. they're very good at it. it looks like they pulled it off air. now the question, tamron do they allow that information to be known to the other hostage takeners at the grocery store or hold the information back and deal with that entirely separately? that's another tactical psychological decision they've got to make probably in the next few minutes. >> i want to replay for the audience just joining us what we saw at the top of the hour and what we heard. let's play that video from the printing plant. [ explosions ]

we need to take our audience to paris. there's tremendous amount of activity near the kosher deli. let's take the -- you can't see at the bottom of the screen here. what is happening. your view may be obstructed with the banner there. there's been what i can see a rush of officers a rush of individuals in armored gear going into this building. evan, this is the second location here now. ten minutes behind what we saw with the flash grenades.

>> a number have been killed at lot indication. i think clint made a good point. you're edging on the evening now. it's getting dark. the individuals have been sitting out here for a long time. one the other concerns as it gets dark, there's the possibility the individuals might escape. given that situation, it's not surprisings you see the folks moving in. the french police don't have much tolerances for the hostage situations. >> hang on. look at the bottom of the screen. we see individuals -- it look as they're being es courted out or coming out. feel free to offer your analysis as well. >> hostages are coming out. >> this is the first thing you'll see after the situation has gone hot in terms of the team want to get in there. they'll want to secure the safety of the hostages. they've got the hostages they want to mutualize the threat. once they mutualize the threat

they'll evacuate all known people within that and get them as far away from the situation as possible. it appears what we're seeing is there was a haste to get people out of the situation. these are two very different locations. it's a very are one is in a country side area. the runway is shut down because the air activity. back in the central of paris a different situation. very urban. the main thing is to contain the activity. what we're seeing play out here is the tipping point. that will be a point where the on scene commander makes the decision for the safety of the individuals involved to take this one way or the other. it looks like they've decided to go dynamic on it. >> that appears to be the case here.

you brought up the timing. it's gone on for almost four hours. at the printing plant seven hours. it's darker and potentially dangerous. >> it's difficult to see what your shooting at. >> if there are hostages inside and we knew it was the case. >> yeah. let's remember they weren't there for four hours. they've been on the run for over a day and a half. they've been, obviously, sleepless. they're already a tremendous amount of pressure. i'm not sure waiting another night is going to make a difference. french police have shown little tolerance for the hostage situations. they've shown little tolerance for people. >> when you say little tolerance what does it mean? >> look at the situation back a few years ago killed a number of individuals a number of jews outside a school also a french

soldier. he ended up going down in a hail of bullets in a confrontation with french police. it was a violent standoff. it tends to be the way the things end. >> evan makes a great point in terms of the tolerance the french authorities have. over a population of 5 million muslims in france. yet france has the most restrictive laws when it comes to freedom of expression of religion in public. so evan makes a good point in terms of, you know that intolerance goes all the way from the political level all the way down to the tactical level. we know that france imposed in 2011 also a law that didn't allow women of the islamic faith to cover up. that was the challenge in european court. it was overturned. so france do have an point to make. france have an intolerance. >> let me go back. kassandra is outside where the two brothers are holed up inside that printing plant.

send you notice ambulances racing past. helicopters swooped in as well. what is the situation on the ground there? do we have kassandra? >> sorry about that. at the moment through are a slew of ambulances and police cars pulling by. it's a short while after we heard loud booms and a helicopter swooped overhead, which signalled they were moving in. there's a number of ambulances driving by. a number of cop cars. that's what we're seeing here at the moment. >> and you're saying we heard that flash regrade and we saw the activity about 18 minutes ago. have you seen activity on the root of of the building. i'm not sure how close you are. give us more details on possible what you're seeing around the building. >> i can't see the roof of the building from here but i can tell you it's very clear things

have amped up. it's siren after siren. i'm not sure if you can hear it in the background. it's hard to hear you speaking because of the notice. we did hear loud bangs. we did see the helicopters raising past and now there's ten cop cars pulling past me again. >> evan it may be possible here that authorities decided to -- at the same time or close go in and end this at both of these locations. >> yeah. one of the concerns would be these individuals were in contact with each other and they might be coordinating something. it could have made international headline napss. they would achieve their goal. >> who could be motivated at seeing at the locations the people holding out. >> yeah. the longer you have these hose damage situations last out, unfortunately, the more you have encouragement for copy cats.

i think one of the questions everybody is going to be asking is whether or not the recent attacks west virginia ss we've seen in sydney australia, canna, even in france whether or not the incidents some way spurred the individuals into action or whether they were operating under the orders of terrorist organization. >> the associated press is reporting what we watched play out. they're giving more details. police stormed the paris kosher grocery where the gunman was held up. five hostages were seen leaving. we saw the individuals who appeared to be holding their hands up being escorted by personnel. police officials -- police personnel. but it appears -- we don't have that on video police made the decision to storm that grocery store. >> yeah. right. the on scene commanders will be assessing the risk across two fronts. assessing it using the probability versus consequent

dynamic. the probability of being able to conduct the assault successfully and the consequences if it goes wrong. ab the second front is capability versus intent. they'll be looking a the situation in terms of what is the capability of the perpetrators and what is their intent in temps of how they would want to play this out. do they want to do a spectacular. these are all the dynamic in the central paris would be assessing on a second by second basis. >> i want to get back to our reporters on the scene there. hopefully we can get our produce producer chatman bell on the line. is kassandra there? she's at the location of the two brothers. are you still with us? let's try to get her back on the line as well as chatman belle. they're on the scene where this is playing out. for those just joining us at the top of the hour we heard

what many believe many experts believed to be a flash grenade at some sort at the location outside of paris near the airport where the two brothers have been huntsed by authorities since wednesday after going into into -- i apologize. let's go to bill neely. there's been a lot of activity in the last few minutes. let's listen in. >> in the police storming of this factory, also france press are reporting the hostage the man took has been freed and is in police custody. i'm afraid that's just from one news agency. that has not been confirmed by french police or any other authorities. but certainly from what we've heard a short time ago, i heard a burst of gunfire and colleagues heard explosions. there are pictures on social media of flashes around the printing works where the siege was taking place.

clearly we are -- it's probably over. all though i cannot confirm that. because it's just one agency and the police have not made an official statement. that is bill neely. i want to show more images coming from near the kosher grocery store where the hostage situation according to the associated press and reporters has ended with police rushing into that location and bringing out as many as fiver hostages who were inside. let's speak to the extraordinary nature of this. you have two volatile situation s playing out. hostages at both locations and a strategic discussion by police to make the move. >> let's not forget one of these individuals or one of these groups saw there was a raid taking place in the other location they had tv or something turned on.

there is the implication they might harm a hostage. there's also that in play there. you need to make the simultaneous -- the individuals are connected together. they were working together at some point. there is obviously likelihood that once they see the raid taking place in one location they're next. for the safety of the hose tangs, i don't think they had any choice but to do it this way. >> it's also containing the situation and protecting is imperative imperative. there are a number of competing authorities. the first is the safety of the hostages. but very close to that would be the want of the security forces to prevent this spread of tactical con teenageon to make sure that no one else gets any idea in their head they might be able to perpetrate or carry out something like this and get away with it. >> let me go to chatman bell is standing by. nbc producer near the grocery

store where at least two people were killed. what can you tell me? moments ago we heard a series of explosions follow theed by gunfire. the police here where we're standing then pushed everyone back around the corners. told people who were looking out of the windows to close the windows. get back in. it's a very tense situation. police officers with their guns drawn in the your. it's unclear what happened inside earlier there were reports of gunman said if the police stormed this grocery store that he would kill the hostages. however, it's unclear what exactly has unfolded. just a couple minutes ago more ambulances drove in into the closed closed off area. in addition to the ambulances there. it's a huge police presence. hundreds of police in full gear.

something is underway here or finished from the lack of gunfire since we've heard from the national scene moments ago. we were watching live images of the scene and from our advantage point the video showed what appeared to be individual civilians being escorted out of the location. you look what you described as well. the activity around this kosher grocery store. did you hear gun fire? >> yes. we heard what sounded like several explosions. three to five possible explosions and then gunfire that was intense but ended abruptly. who was shooting it's unclear but that said it's remained quiet since then. >> what we've been told multiple french media outlets are report

g reporting that the kouachi brothers have been killed. nbc is working to confirm that. but multiple french media outlets are reporting that the kouachi brothers have been killed. we saw about 20 minutes ago, 20 plus minutes ago that flash grenade. the individuals who we would assume were police officials on the roof of the building would not send personnel to the top of the roof if they did not feel it was too risk ya. >> yeah. that would have been an indication there. having them on the roof in a vulnerable position like that it's hard to believe they would have done that unless they suspected they were incapacity tated. >> from the reports we're getting about the kouachi brothers being kimlled. if the french authorities and the police and security forces have managed to conduct this

assault and mutualize the two brothers in the threat and maintain the safety of the hostages, that is a remarkable outcome. we don't know that yet. the report seem to be indicating that way. you see the darkness there. we can't see the smoke. very little activity. a stillness in that video contrast that within the heart of paris this location where there are is a series of ambulances. we see individuals running around that kosher gorerocery store. it's not clear if the hostages being held survived. we know there have been deaths. >> it's true. it's fair to point out the french gign commandos have quite a bit of experience. in 1995 there was an airliner

hijacked by the group. one was to crash it into the identical tower in paris. they were able to storm the aircraft disable the terrorists involved. it was a successful operation. the associated press is quoting an unidentified official saying the suspects in the charlie hebdo killed hostage free. it's believed perhaps the owner the person who ran the plant was the only individual there. what we now are able to report according to the associated press is the suspects in the charlie hebdo massacre killed and hostage freed. at the second location, the grocery store where at least two hostages were killed know there was an individual who may have

been the accomplice who drove off from the original massacre. there's also this individual this woman 26 years old who may be part of this. her whereabouts not clear. >> that's a good point. this situation is by no means -- and there will be a lot of loose ends that need tied up. the point you made about the two different locations and the levels of lightening. actually we saw it was dark. there's no cultural lightening there. however that's better because the security forces will be using night vision gog goggles. there's a cross over between daylight and complete blackness. i've operated thousands of hours where you get the cross over from light to dark and it's really hard to actually make out they get prickly and pixlated. you either want it light or

really dark. you don't want that cross over. back in the center of paris. it's going to be affected by lightening which made it harder. they have to use goggles or the naked eye. the naked eye in dusk conditions is very hard. actually pitch black in this situation allows them to go straight on the night vision google wear. >> something evan made the point earlier. it seems there was coordinated decision to go in because these individuals could have been in commune indication. once you see for example the flash grenades we know the reporter at the scene indicated that individual holed up said if police rush in he would kill the hosetages there. >> these were unstable individuals. i think it is likely if they had seen a raid taking place in one location they would have taken action. one of the other questions is

looking a the two groups of hostages here. we've had the report about the freed hostage at the printing location. one other individual who was an eye witness was called by the individual, the brothers we don't kill civilians. what happened at jewish market? i'm not sheer we're going to see the individuals shown nearly as much mercy. if they get an opportunity pump shots off they'll do it. >> the french media reporting that the hostage taker at the kosher supermarket is also dead. that's the individual who has been identified as-- he was believed to be an companion, according to reports the individual who demanded the release of the kouachi brothers upon taking over that grocery store. it bears reporting that the one female identified as potentially

part of this cell. we don't have new information. it is incredible when you think about the death of the female police officer when was reported early on there was a belief it wasn't connected. there was a flow of information that wasn't clear. this morning it became very clear this was all connected. and these individuals continued -- this is video that came in moments ago. but the death of the police officer some might say did not get the appropriate attention to piece this all together. >> i think with the chaos happening in the last two days in paris, it's unable they might have thought it was a copy cat operation. only when they linked up -- >> lester holt is on the phone. he's near the kosher grocery store in paris. what did you tell us? >> there some signs that indicate it may be over. there's a relaxing of posture. they have several blocks

cordoned off here. as we watch we don't see helicopters overhead. i saw three ambulances, a convoy of ambulances a fewn't minutes ago. it didn't appear there was anyone in the back. it seems consistent with a point of stand down. looking at other ambulances fairly close by. but i'm seeing more movement now. more vehicles more police in the street which seem to cooperate with word we're getting it may have come it an end. >> that's aligned with what we're hearing and what we saw lester from the video from moments ago. we watched play out where it appeared to be civilians surrounded by authorities escorting them out of the kosher grocery store. french media, a number of outlets reporting the hostage taker has been killed. we don't have at lot of details regarding the hostages that were inside other than what we were able to see in the video.

>> yeah. it's been a very stressful day here. i was telling colleagues this remind me covering the boston bombing manhunt and the last 24 hours. the city has been edge. there were reports of shots in the subway. police responded with weapons. also report of a third hostage taking. suddenly we were surrounded by police. their guns drawn. we were crouched down behind our vehicles. they were sweeping around us. it was a false alarm at a bank. just standing on the corner shaking their head saying how can it happen here. one woman said it's like our 9/11. another man said we can't accept it. this is not something -- it's surreal. people are -- their nerves are frayed. that is a wonderful point you made regarding just the tension and the comparison.

evan we were watching in boston and asked the question how can two individuals bring an american city to a stand still. here you have potentially four but still small groups of people that essentially shut down and terrorized a city. >> yeah. one of the questions is going to be is mr. coulabaly someone that jumped on the parade? is miss boumeddiene his girlfriend? we've seen two individuals getting into the car. we haven't seen any vid 77of third person. >> there were reports and we saw a third suspect but it appears the third suspect may have an al by. >> let me go bill neely. the situation, we believe, has come to an end.

what can you report? >> well, all the major french media outlets are reporting that the three gunmen involved in the two sieges are now dead. certainly within the last hour everything came to a head here. there was a explosion and gunfire and then anotherings ploegs and smoke. that's at the factory near here where the two brothers kouachi brothers suspected of being the gunmen behind the magazine mas masker had been holed up for about seven hours. u simultaneously the other siege at the kosher supermarket in paris began developing. that gunman said if the police moved into this fact i are he would begin killing the hostages he had. clearly the police coordinated their response. they decided they couldn't let this go on for very long. and allow the gunmen to -- they

decided simultaneously to move in. as you can hear behind me all though the siege may be over, all though the gunman may be dead. that's being reported by all the french networks. there are still ambulances and police vehicles pouring in to an area that has already been saturated for eight hours by anti-terror police and swat teams. many more questions out there to be answered. what we believe is that the both sieges have been lifted and it is being reported that all the hostages with the one person here and the five or so at the kosher supermarket in central paris, all the hostages have been freed. as i said nbc news cannot confirm at the moment that the three gunmen are dead but it is widely reported by french media and also french police have not confirmed it yet. >> thank you very much. if these reports are accurate

and it appears to be the case. this does not remove the fear and the possibility that others will copy and the larger problem that you both have discussed, mikey as well of disenfranchised young men and some cases women who are ready to act out on the hate. >> let's look at the time line. you have mohamed an individual who is trained in afghanistan by al qaeda or some other group comes back to france and then starts carrying out a massacres with a firearm targeting jewish schools, targeting french military and police. not on the order of anyone from al qaeda but on his own mission. all of a sudden now you have a situation where you have these individuals. you have the individual who carried out the shooting at jewish museum. a individual picked up few months ago at the film festival. his father is a wealthy hotel

owner. he was picked up after coming back from syria building bombs. there's a problem of individuals who may or may not be lone wolves who receive training in afghanistan, yemen, and syria who are coming home and doing things. it's not clear whether they're doing it on orders or on their own. >> but we know at least when the kouachi brothers took the vehicle from one of the individuals he or they wanted it to be clear who they were working for. who they were in align with which is the extremists in yemen. >> aqap which was the franchise of al qaeda that has the m.o. of overseas operations. >> and that witness said the brothers instructed him to tell the press this is who -- >> yeah. it's getting the brand out. moving on building on evan's point. how do you tackle this problem in the future?

what is the holestic approach? one thing that fascinated me. we talk about intelligence and the ability to suck up intelligence through the technical aspects which are through the imagery we see on the cameras on the drone or electronic intelligence, which is the ability to listen to communications cell phones walky talkies, communications or the most important thing moving forward i think is human intelligence. it is the ability for the authorities to establish very good relationships with the community community. >> but it sounds like there was a manpower issue. these individuals were on the terror watch list of the united states. they were on the radar heavily in france but their surveillance had been lifted. >> as was months-old. all of these people were known to have gone to conflict zones and train with al qaeda or al qaeda affiliates and somehow managed to get back. and what happened with the surveillance.

and the problem is that law enforcement their resources are limited and trying to tack a thousand people or more who may or may not be loan wolves or trained extremists is a challenging exercise. >> you're seeing other individuals who are not in the system who are calling that who are being inspired whether it's on the internet or watching this play out daily. >> we have to be -- we have to be very careful not judge the french authorities and the intelligence community. as evan rightly pointed out, there are 1200 islamist extremists we know have gone to syria. trying to track every sickngle one of those is almost nearly impossible. they'll have to pose the priority. they'll have to look at the capability of certain

individuals. it is incredibly hard to assess when someone turns. what is that point of becoming disenfranchised? >> let me bring in time magazine reporter vivian walsh. she's in paris. are you there? >> yes, i am. what can you tell us -- i'm not sure of your location and what you've been able to see. feel free to tell me what you're able to report. >> willell, to step back a moment. your reporters have been saying this, but for the french they are really going to have to grapple a lot with how they missed this. these are people not only under surveillance for the last couple of years but also in the case of charlie hebdo that was under police surveillance. therefore something went wrong.

yes, it's difficult, obviously, to keep track of what the police believe are 1,200 french citizens who have gone off to fight in syria over the last few years, but nonetheless it was an attack that maybe should not have happened. the other thing is just moving around paris today there has been intense nervousness for the reason because the attack on wednesday, everybody assumed was one off thing. and then on the police officers was assumed to be a weird coincidence. when the government today started drawing the links between the two, it became a far more sinister situation and a situation which leaves people wondering whether this is the last day they'll see of it or whether, in fact there is a bigger plan which is still unfolding. >> and that is the question vivian.

but to the point, i believe, that mikey and evan were making you have intelligence. you have protocol and pieces in place similar to after 9/11. we evaluate what went wrong in the country and realized that some of our best agencies were not communicating. there were gaps. there is it seems, no way to tell when an individual as evan pointed out with his expertise, a individual is ready to carry out the threat. you have a number of threats and chatter on the internet with any given day. with the surveillance problem in paris, to your point, there has to be some analysis of when you no longer follow it and when the priority honestly who is the person who is ready to carry out that threat. this terror cell from all the reporting we heard linkered and festered for ten years.

in contrast to the u.s. you have the european union, so you a giant population of 500 million people in very close proximity to the middle east and north africa. who can travel freely within 28 countries without a passport. so, you know, there's very free movement across a very big swath of territory. this country has europe's biggest muslim population. it has europe's biggest jewish population. so the authorities for a long time have regarded the situation in france as kind of a tinderbox. we have seen that play out not only in the last few days but the last few months. the french citizens who mounted attack against the jewish center in brussels the shootings a couple of years ago. >> let me bring in my colleague,

vivian richard engel. richard, are you there? >> yes, i can hear you. i'm at the location at the industrial park. there are new reports coming out in the french media about how exactly this operation took place. the afp news agency just reported a short while ago that french counter terrorism officials decided to launch this operation about an hour ago, it seems, when they noticed that the two brothers the two hostage takers the kouachi brothers had moved into a separate room from the hostage himself. there was one hostage we now believe inside the printing press in the industrial park less than a mile from where i am now. as soon as the counter terrorism officials noticed that the hostage takers had separated themselves from their hostage, they moved in for the assault.

after that the kouachi brothers came outside, started to fire on the french police all of this an account from the press. and they were neutralized is the word french authorities are using in the encounter. what has been confirmed by multiple sources the two of them are dead. what we have been able to see and hear from our point here we've heard explosions. two explosions separated by about five minutes. we saw the evacuation of children who were holed up in a school nearby. we have seen -- you can see some emergency vehicles that are still moving through the town. but things here do seem to have changed. all though there are vehicles moving around with their sirens blaring, the security presence that was very tense an hour ago does seem to be relaxing. it seems to be that we're moving into a new stage here. >> richard, i hope you can

standby. i want to go to our nbc producer at the second location. what is happening through now? >> it's -- you actually hear the police shouting right now. they seem to be relaxing. police ran down the street that is cordoned off. a man was there who they ordered to stop and they frisked him. they seemed to be really interested and focused on a certain area. you see flashlights and police searching and it's unclear what they are looking for, but it's just that things were relaxing and had gotten tense again. officers with weapons drawn and it appears they are really focused on a cluster of vehicles about a block away from us right now. tamron? >> let me get you to hang on. >> it goes back to the point that we were making that the situation is not over. threads still need to be tied up in the situation.

what richard engle's point that he made in terms of the trigger action, what was the trigger action and what fascinates me is in these situations -- >> go back to chapman. what are you saying? what's happening? >> the police are rushing down the street now. more police have come from another position and they are all running down and again all focussing on this one area. seems to be a vehicle. the situation is really tense at the moment. more and more police keep entering this corner about a block away from us on the street and surrounding a cluster of vehicles. >> to your point -- >> you can see the cluster of emergency services that have gone in but what's important to note is that if you were to draw the camera back to look at a half a mile radius square the

security forces when you get a situation like this come up with a grg, a grid reference graphic. a detailed map of the area and put check points on the potential exit area where is if it goes hot and they do the assault and one of the hostages or the perpetrators gets away they will be able to track it through a simple system. they will label the check points, abcdef or 1, 2, 3, 4 and they can track the situation. >> i top the get insight. we are watching scenes play out, but we know right after the massacre at the magazine that there were sweeps happening in and around paris. we would be foolish to believe that kind of surveillance and activity is not happening right now. >> there is three things going through their minds. the potential of copycats or other people involved in this

who are simply waiting for the right opportunity to launch a second attack and the third possibility and we have seen this in iraq and elsewhere where someone planneds an ied and wait for rescue services to crowd in and set it off. that's the other possibility here that they have to be looking for. this individual may have left an explosive device around for first responders. >> and a person who can provide valuable intelligence. we know that in the reports, the two brothers lived in a housing project in the states and neighbors said they would come and go. in the past there have been mosques or certain religious leaders tied to the people. we have not seen that with the brothers, but they had outside training and potentially from the two other individuals, one was inside the market. they have people they were willing to work with. >> others were involved in the

plot to free them and both of them were involved in them. it's not clear if they reformed themselves and they are no longer jihadists, but it's fair to say that as far back as ten years ago as french-based extremists most in the paris area individuals in places like iraq and syria and beyond. there is the feel that there is others out there. hopefully not. there is the possibility. >> on those networks they take a long time to discern over the center. we used to work with the intelligence community that took sometimes up to years to work out what the spider networks were. who was the head of the organization and responsible for training and recruiting. who is responsible for logistics and communications.

it's not open and overt. understanding what they are and links back to syria and north africa. they are not going to be able to have contacts and the networks you were talking about. it's not something you can discern over 48 hours. >> that brings me as we were going to hand over the coverage to andrea mitchell this is a hot wagz and we know that the standoff involving the two brothers ended with them coming out and shooting and they were killed by police and potentially this third individual killed at the super market and we are waiting for any information on this one female that may be linked to them. back to the documentary who was at the time this urban individual living out his life not in a glamorous way, but he was a pizza delivery person who ends up a mass murderer.

>> this is the story of many individuals from france and forget about it. people feel that they are not part of french society even though they are born here and have bridgestone up here. they didn't speak arabic. they only spoke french. there has got to be if you want to prevent them that have to understand what makes these folks feel they have to wage war against french society. >> we cannot even though this event is playing out in france cannot play out here in the united states and minnesota and young somali boys and their parents wake up in the middle of the night and who never lived it. >> what would alienate somali

americans living in minneapolis. what would make them feel so alienated that they travel to somalia to join? one of the worst jihadist organizations to join. it doesn't make sense and we have to understand what is pushing them to go. the only way to stop this from happening is dissuade these folks and make them realize this is not a grand adventure and safari. you are not bad man or super man by joining. these individuals are killers. they kill just as many muslims if not many more. >> the conversation is understanding the relationship between society and those people that are alienated and secluded and feel disenfranchised and that involves speaking to the muslim communities and building the relationships with the prominent figuresment the people that preach at the mosques and the senior leaders within the

population to be able to speak and give a good message rather than this toxic pollution. >> they are always going to be extremists. there christian extremists and jewish extremists and muslim extremists. it is unfortunate and should be condemned, but that is not one faith. all faiths have extremists and that will happen regardless of the policies. >> these are live images from paris, france. we watched this hour play out in extraordinary fashion with the deaths of two brothers they were held up in a printing plant for some seven hours according to our richard engle. they went and secluded themselves into a separate room away from the lone hostage they were holding. authorities felt that was their move to make and at some point

the confrontation was a shootout between the police and the individuals who were the focus of a manhunt. they were killed according to several french media, a third individual who was at the super market were two hostages killed early this morning. also killed as they stormed the market. we will turn over coverage to my colleague andrea mitchell who is following the latest developments. >> thanks so much tamron hall. while we continue breaking news coverage, within the last hour armed forces stormed two locations. reportedly taking out three suspects, two of whom are thought to be the brothers behind the charlie massacre. the hostages who spent the day in fear are reportedly free. we go by phone from outside the scene of the print shop northeast of paris. before you proceed, i wanted to update that we have at least

reportedly from the french ambassador here in washington from his verified twitter account, he said that the assault on the jewish grocery store in paris is successful and the hostages are alive and the terrorist has been killed. that is from here in washington. tell us what's happening where you are. >> what's happening here it all unfolded very, very quickly. it started early this morning and then sirens and police cars are racing. fire and smoke over the zone where the siege was taking place and now we learned that the brothers were holed up in the printing shop have been killed and