we also have former cia counterterrorism analyst with us. since we are just hitting the top of the hour i want to reset you and tell you where we are on what has been a terrifying tense, dramatic tragic day in france. this morning in local time the two kouachi brothers the suspects believed to have carried out the charlie hebdo mass murder earlier this week. those brothers holed up and took a hostage in a printing -- what appears to be a printing factory in an industrial park near charles de gaulle airport. thereafter a man named amedy coulibaly, suspect in a shooting of a police officer the day after the charlie hebdo shootings. he burst into a kosher market in porte de vincennes, and took hostages there and in communications with hostage negotiators he called for the safe release of the kouachi

brothers near charles de gaulle airport. those two hostage situations played out in parallel for hours today in france with the entire nation watching, with global media watching. and then about two hours ago, around noon our time a little after that, as nightfall was happening -- you're seeing photos on the right of tape -- i'm sorry, tape of that moment, there were flash bangs and there was a raid by the gign forces of the french special forces tactical unit into both sites. one after another separated by maybe four or five minutes at the most. the word we have is that the kouachi brothers who are in dammartin-en-goele near charles de gaulle airport. the one hostage was freed. in the case of the market amedy coulibaly was killed along with four hostages. francois hollande moments ago

expressing his condolences to the families of those four hostages. those hostages remain at this moment unnamed. the number of hostages rescued also unknown at this moment although we have this striking dramatic photo that came from moments after that raid in which you see the french forces hustling people out. that man there in the middle looks like a yelp of relief as he has just been rescued from an incredibly tense situation. there's a fourth suspect, hayat boumeddiene, described by french authorities as armed and dangerous. she is as far as we know at the moment, at large. we know french authorities know quite a bit about the kouachi brothers. one of whom actually did time for terrorism-related charges. he was stopped from going to iraq to join essentially the al qaeda in iraq in its efforts to kill americans in iraq. the other brother, it appears,

had recently -- fairly recently the last few years had gone to yemen who we hear from u.s. counterterrorism officials had trained with al qaeda in the arabian pen insue law, aqap. he returned. we saw some training it appears, in the way in which these two men methodically went about the slaughter they committed of the charlie hebdo offices, killing the journalists inside and then killing a police officer as he laid on the ground and begged for his life before hijacking a car. we know a little less about amedy coulibaly, although he's been described in the french press as a former juvenile delinquent. he is, it appears, a convert to islam. it appears in some initial reports that he and one of the kouachi brothers shared an imam they worshipped or co-radicalized in that same environment. we heard from francois hollande.

he has called for a march of national unity on sunday moments ago, asking for unity. saying it's france's best weapon, a determination to fight against anything that divides us, fight against racism and anti-semitism. es police it's condemning the anti-semitic attack. part of what's deeply upsetting about these attacks, when you talk about soft targets, it's hard to think of softer targets than what we have here. this is not even -- this is not even some kind of major public area, right? it's not -- even the metro bombing. a random -- essentially random grocery store is about as soft a target as can you get. you're seeing there live footage as president barack obama enters the stage, having been introduced by vice president biden. he's in tennessee to unveil a new proposal for free community

college across the nation in knoxville, tennessee, modeled after a program they offered in this state. in advance of the state of the union, he's there to talk about that proposal. he's been touring around the country, talking about his economic agenda in advance of the state of the union. we're expecting him, however, to address the events in france. let's take a listen. >> thank you, everybody. please have a seat. well, it is good to be back in tennessee. i've been coming around a lot lately. because there's a lot of good stuff happening here. i want to begin by thanking jill and joe biden. they're not just good friends and good partners but they really believe in the power of education. and they really believe in creating those kinds of ladders

to opportunity that gave all three of us and michelle the chances, the incredible opportunities we've had today. and then understand the promise of america's community colleges. well, jill really understands it. and joe, he doesn't really have a choice. before i get into the reason that i'm here today, i want to begin by saying just a few words about the tragic events we've watched unfold in france over the last several hours and days. because events have been fast moving this morning, i want to make sure to comment on them. i just spoke to my counterterrorism adviser. we have been in close touch with the french government throughout this tragedy. the moment that the outrageous attack took place, we directed all of our law enforcement and counterintelligence operations to provide whatever support that our ally needs in confronting

this challenge. we're hopeful that the immediate threat is now resolved. thanks to the courage and professionalism of the french personnel on the ground. but the french government continues to face the threat of terrorism and has to remain vigilant. the situation is fluid. president hollande has made it clear they're going to do whatever is necessary to protect their people. and i think it's important for us to understand, france is our oldest ally. i want the people of france to know that the united states stands with you today, stands with you tomorrow. our thoughts and prayers are with the families who have been directly impacted. we grieve with you. we fight alongside you to uphold our values the values that we share, universal values, that bind us together as friends and as allies. and in the streets of paris, the world has seen once again what

terrorists stand for. they have nothing to offer but hatred and human suffering. we stand for freedom hope and the dignity of all human beings. that's what the city of paris represents to the world and that spirit will endure forever long after the scourge of terrorism is banished from this world. [ applause ] now, i'm a knoxville, not only because i like knoxville, but i'm here today because one of my resolutions is to make sure that folks across this great country feel like -- >> so that is the president in knoxville, tennessee, where as i said earlier, he is there to unveil a new proposal to make community college free. that's a proposal that we'll get more details on from him today

and also in the run-up to the state of the union. but you saw at the beginning there, he addressed the events in france pledged his solidarity with the french people quoting france as our oldest ally, which is true. and also talking about the fact that the ideals of democracy and pluralism will outlive any terrorists, strike similar notes to francois hollande. the agenda right now, evan for investigators, there's sort of two things that have to happen in france right now. there's a political question about how this is going to be digested and dealt with politically. we saw some opening notes from francois hollande about how he wants to do that. the terms he wants to set. the tone he wants to strike. a national unity march on sunday that pointedly excluding the right wing national front. in terms of what investigators are doing right now, what is going on among investigators? >> well, there's a number of different things. first, you saw obviously they

raided the home of the kouachi brothers. they're going through there, seizing the computers. seeing if there's evidence of communications, did they have other weapons, were they in touch with other people? the french government is also interfacing with other foreign governments, particularly here in the united states. the nsa and gxgq in the uk have the ability to suck in a vast amount of information. we've seen this obviously in the nsa scandal that france doesn't have the capability to do. i've seen personally how various european governments when dealing with threats from isis and aqap have had to rely he had heavily on information provided by the nsa and ghcq because of their more advanced capabilities in that regard. hairs no doubt there's inferfacing in that regard. the number one thing is to make sure there isn't anybody left. to make sure there isn't a lady running around right now somewhere in paris carrying an ak-47, looking for another policeman to shoot or looking for a school or a market to shoot up. that's the number one priority. to make sure there's no other active shooters left. we don't have any great

assurance on that. again, as has been pointed out, french authorities didn't know for many many hours this initial shooting of the policeman was linked. i've got to tell you i mean looking at it, when i first heard they same there was no link, at the minimum it looked like a copycat. at the minimum, it looked like someone who was copycatting. now it looks like more than that. >> also the context here is the homicide rate in france at large is quite low. the incidences of violent crime, of shooting murders of police is incredibly low. so, this is even -- it's an extraordinary thing that happens or it's an unusual thing that happens in the u.s., but even more unusual in the context of france. >> even more shocking, when the targets are a jewish museum a kosher marketplace, a school where children are being mowed down, this brings back horrors that have not been seen in europe since world war ii. and i think a lot of people for exactly that reason, they look

at this and they're concerned. it's true that there are a lot of jews in france right now that feel they're under siege. they feel they are under direct threat. if you look at these various different incidents and look to the fact there hasn't been any major effort to try to stop this you can understand why they feel that way. >> that's a live picture right now we're looking at outside the supermarket where there appear to be medical personnel prooech presumably attending to hostages. we do not at this hour have confirmation on the total number of hostages. we have confirmation from the lips of the president of france himself, francois hollande, that four of those hostages died during the operation to free them. as well as the gunman amedy coulibaly, the blood of those four, of course, being on his hands ultimately. we'll get details about what exactly happened there. i imagine as we learn more. >> i was going to pick up on what evan was saying. it's vital that through all of

this computer network and files and everything else what they're going to try and do is understand and build the spider network. i operated three years over baghdad hitting high asset value targets. we worked closely with the intelligence community. there are spider networks, huge networks, you have the head head of logistics communications chief of recruit recruitment recruitment, chief of training, you have to understand, is there something coming next? is this just a symptom of a bigger problem that is growing within france? that will be critical but that takes time. some intelligence we were working when we were doing these strikes in baghdad, it took years to compile. we have to expect that. >> going through someone's computer alone, going through skype conversations on someone's computer number one, you don't get all the information. just going through it could take hours, days, weeks just to go through it. i've done this personally.

it's not easy to do. and it takes a tremendous amount of expertise and an understanding of who the people are that are in those contact lists. if you don't recognize those names, it could be santa claus. >> i want to bring in laith alkhouri who is a terrorism analyst for us here at msnbc. talk about aqap. we've obviously -- we've been hearing a tremendous amount about the islamic state last year during the summer particularly the gruesome beheadings of journalists that caught so much attention, u.s. intervention against the islamic state. it appears that one of the kouachi brothers traveled not to syria and iraq which has been the low cust of a lot of concern and the fly paper that has brought a lot of jihadis into the region but instead to yemen and trade with al qaeda in the arabian peninsula. >> it is one of the, if not the most capable of al qaeda's branches. let's remember, they have demonstrated global ambitions to

attack not only transnationally in saudi arabia and surrounding countries, but also in the west. they were behind the airliner plot in late 2009. they also were behind the postal packages explosive postal packages that were intercepted before reaching the united states. of course they are behind the english language magazine "inspire" which we have about 13 issues that were released so far. and each issue contains a recipe to carry out unconventional attacks in the west. their most recent issue actually included a very detailed recipe to make so-called undetectable bombs. it's a very capable bomb. it has mull any nationals, foreign fighters from all around the world and demonstrated capability and intent from carry out attacks in the west. >> i want to talk about the nature of these attacks for a second as we've seen them. it occurs to me that we saw a

series of truly ghastly, massive, large mass casualty attacks. of course, the most famous and deadly of 9/11. but we saw the bali bombing, the attacks in london and also in madrid, right? these were using explosives. there were cells of four, five, six people. in madrid it was six, i believe. a fair amount of logistical explosives, getting them to where you need them to pb in the last four or five years we've seen more attacks that appear to be either lone golf gun attacks, soft targets. the incident in canada of the car, driving a car into soldiers. does that say something about in some ways the successes of counterterrorism in these places, pulling off these large-scale, logistical mass casualty? does that say about recruiting? or is there no trend? >> this brings up a point laith and i were talking about

yesterday. the idea aqap is putting out there how they can develop bombs, sneak through airline security, put in people's clothing that is undetectable. if this is aqap why would they ratchet it down to this level? you get at one of the possible explanations, if this is something directedly aqap or by isis the requested of k.i.s.s. keep it simple stupid. we've seen a lot of very elaborate bomb plots, including the underwear bomb plot. we saw richard reid when he tried lighting his shoe on fire. they got a lot of headlines but weren't successful. they were failed attacks. there is certain sense among al qaeda and particularly aqap if you make it a simpler mission, there's a greater likelihood for success. if you kill 20 people and not 200, you're still going to get that headline. >> and another reminder about the fact that this is -- this violence is done from a sort of political perspective with a media component as well. it was -- charlie hebdo is a target that massively well known

in the french media. it ignited this massive amount of global coverage because of its significance as a kind of symbol, right? so that is also not accidental. we're going to take a quick commercial break and be right back with special live coverage of the events in france. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪

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we're back with special live coverage of the situation in france where two hostage situations have been resolved. three of the four suspects are dead. one, hyatt boumeddiene, is at large. the brothers kouachi are dead, as well as the gunman who overtook the kosher french

market amedy coulibaly. francois hollande expressing his grief and solidarity with the families of those who died, condemning the anti-semitism of the kosher market attack. those are the images before you. we have michael kay, evan coleman and laith alkhouri talking about what the investigation does now, about the sort of smigsophistication of the attacks. we also have on the phone, a former staff member of charlie hebdo. written/contributor for them and is working on the next issue of charlie hebdo. are you there? >> reporter: zoo >> yes. hole loe hello. >> how are you feeling today? it's obviously been a tense and terrifying day in france. how are you feeling? >> well of course relieved that the killers -- most of the killers are now out of the

vicinity of killing another generalist or another citizen. but still with sadness because, of course, i would prefer no one died, not today or yesterday. >> are you, i understand working with other people in the orbit of charlie hebdo contributors to put out the next issue. what has that process been like? >> it's actually -- the last team of charlie hebdo was going to do the next printing. it's very hard because, of course charlie hebdo is a very satirical newspaper. it's full of sense of humor, a sense of humor about every religion every violent, every type of system in the nation but always with smiles. and i know that today not only for journalists but also for

captives who are still alive, the most difficult thing is not only to stop crying for their colleague, our friends, but to try to find another way to smile again. >> there is a call for a national unity rally on sunday and a lot of concern about what the political fallout from these ghastly attacks will be. what is your hope for what happens in france in the next few days? >> my hope is this incredible emotion and incredible support we see all over the world is going to continue and going to protect all of us from those two crazy temptations. first, the temptation charlie hebdo also denounced. the temptation of threatenism.

we can all mourn together but, yes -- and the far right, who was the big enemy of charlie hebdo, they are not welcome. they are political -- political sign. everyone has to come as a citizen without political sign and protect that series. i think that's really -- those jihadis made a huge mistake to attack a symbol like charlie hebdo. when you try to kill, which is the most smiley tender and sweet way to satricism, you create something -- a reaction, because you cannot kill humor.

you can make us sad. you can make us hurt but we will smile again. we'll smile again very soon. and we will -- the fact we did show the drawing of muhammad we knew all together when we did it almost ten years, we knew we would face the consequences. we knew it was very very very dangerous. but it was the way to support our colleague. for few drawings for that religion. charlie hebdo always criticize and make laughs about every religion. it was our way to be satirists. we have to say that for every

religion. i can't tell you the cartoonists they killed were the most talented of their generation. they were incredible guys incredibly tender guys and incredibly funny ways and absolutely brave. >> carolyn, who is working on the next issue of charlie hebdo, a contributor. thank you for your time. really appreciate it. >> thank you. we will be back with more live breaking coverage of the events in france after this quick break. out of 42 vehicles... based on 6 different criteria... why did a panel of 11 automotive experts... ... name the volkswagen golf motor trend's 2015 car of the year? we'll give you four good reasons the all-new volkswagen golf starting at $17,995. there's an award winning golf for everyone. your mom's got your back.

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charles de gaulle airport where earlier today the kouachi brothers had taken a hostage. is the scene there essentially a kind of all clear at this point? >> reporter: well the roads are blocked off and there is still a very heavy police presence. i can tell you the mood has dramatically changed. earlier it was very very tense. there were police everywhere sirens constantly going off. but now the tension appears to have eased. most of the cops have moved on. for now, it looks like they're maintaining a presence as the threat's up. >> can you describe what it was like when the raid happened? we were told there were several loud explosions. it happened quite quickly. there was a tremendous police presence. were you in the area when the raid was taking place? >> reporter: chris, i was here. everything started kick off earlier this morning. pp we learned the men believed to be involved in the massacre in paris had holed themselves up

in an industrial park just in northeast france. so after that for several hours, all we really saw and all we heard was police activity, sirens helicopters overhead. but it was relatively quiet. and then all of a sudden we started hearing loud bangs. we heard helicopters overhead ambulances started racing by along with many many more police cars. as it became clear the police decided to move in. >> cassie vinograd in dammartin-en-goele, the site of the hostage situation where the kouachi brother hs taken a hostage earlier today. that was resolved earlier today when special forces or tactical forces raided and killed both kouachi brothers and freed the lone hostage. cassie, thank you very much. joining me now, nbc news contributor michael sheehan. michael, the president saying -- expressing the hope the situation has been brought to a close. at what point do you think that french authorities can

confidently make that determination? >> i think this crisis is pretty much over even though they're still looking for the fourth suspect, the young woman who had a relationship with the person who did the hostage taking at the kosher food store. i think -- so that part of it is over. unfortunately, there's a lot of work to be done in france and around the world. both in terms of responding to the terrorist threat while not going too far in terms of squashing on civil liberties. this is going to be a tough balance not only for france but for other countries, trying to strike that balance as they move forward now. >> is there a practical limit to the degree of divination you can expect from counterterrorism forces which is to say, even if you're tracking someone, you know, there are logistical and sort of resource constraints on whether you can prevent someone from doing this. the big tip-off appears to be the weapons. where did they get the weapons? we have an account of a

neighbor -- actually "the global mail," an account in which they said they broke into the brothers' apartment because they were so concerned and found a cache of weapons. that seems to be the first place you start to look for how they were able to do this and what kind of logistical support they got. >> that's exactly right, chris. they talked about a thousand people the french are interested in. to keep them all under surveillance, perhaps ten per person. you may need 10,000 law enforcement officials. that's very difficult to keep everybody under surveillance. have you to set priorities. when we were at nypd, we would be very concerned about any individual we started watching when they started thinking about acquiring weapons or bomb-making materials. you are absolutely right. when they start to look for weapons, that's when they're getting close to an operation. in this case again, before people go to weapons, the law enforcement personnel have to

set priorities on who they're going to watch. these individuals seem to be persons of great threat. so, there will be a review of any failures the french may have made in tracking these two. and that will all come out over the weeks and months ahead. right now they'll be justments to make sure this doesn't happen again by allowing some hard core terrorist to slip through their watch. >> presumably there are also far, far tighter restrictions on guns. not presumably there are far tighter restrictions on guns and their availability in france. it's not an easy thing in france to get yourself an ak-47. >> that's correct. you can't just go down to walmart and buy an assault rifle like can you in the united states an automatic, but pretty much those type of weapons, semi-automatic. but kalashnikovs are around the world, not that hard to smuggle. you can disassemble an ak-47 and ship that around the world

without that much difficulty. so, they can get their hands on weapons if they're determined enough, even in a country like france where it is much more difficult to buy that type of rifle. >> nbc news contributor michael sheehan, thank you very much. don't go anywhere. we'll be right back with live coverage oof this break. with the incredible fuel efficiency of 38 miles-per-gallon highway you can feel like royalty in the nissan altima. now, get great offers on the 38 mpg highway nissan altima. nissan innovation that excites. >> bingo! >> darn it! i was one square away from winning that game. >> it's a shame sadie isn't here today she always wins. coulda won the big prize. >> you know, that could have helped her with some of jim's funeral expenses. >> there wasn't any life insurance? >> no, there wasn't.

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>> reporter: chris the interior minister also said that there is still an active search under way to find out if there are other people associated with these attacks, that they need to round up. you may recall over the past couple days, the authorities have said there were a number of people dozens of people, who they had under surveillance. others -- any greater number they have under constant surveillance because of the number of french nationals returning from iraq and syria after joining the jihadi causes there. so the situation is still evolving. we're in the neighborhood and things have, for the most part, returned to normal, although just a few moments ago there was a long line of police cars that came screaming through here heading toward the supermarket, which is in that direction around the corner there. unclear exactly what's happening, but the point is that things are still somewhat active here. and i think it's significant they are saying that there is still a search going on. and the other missing part of

the equation of course is the female accomplice who we're not sure what has happened to. the woman on the "wanted" poster whether she was killed in the incident, whether she escaped, as there is rumor and some reporting, on whether she is still at large and armed and dangerous. not a lot of definitive word about that. and i also find it interesting, as you pointed out, that we still don't know the number of fatalities here. this has been a very traumatic incident for the french republic as is, perhaps, obvious, but perhaps worth restating again. the president, when he was speaking earlier and in previous days has described in great detail the shock and anguish this nation has gone through and how this attack while on a magazine, which people think of a magazine in america and elsewhere, this was really an attack on the values of this country, on the freedoms of this country and to some extent the

essence of this country. that goes very deep which is another reason why there are so many foreign dignitaries who were coming here this sunday to join this big unity rally. so, again, the bottom line still some unanswered questions. the investigation obviously continues. the big question is just how many french citizens were lost during the course of these two hostage takings and the two assaults that followed. >> ron allen live in paris, thank you very much. a former cia counterterrorism analyst. aki, can you talk about the unique and specific challenges the french face in this respect from a counterterrorism perspective, which seem quite distinct between what america faces, for instance? >> sure. one of the toughest things right now, and this might seem extremely simple is all the terrorists are dead. unfortunately, dead men tell no tales. if they were taken alive, they could give us information about

their on come mrisaccomplices. links to overseas, yemen or elsewhere in the middle east. it's actually quite difficult to ascertain where exactly they came from. and their job, the french police and french intelligence services' jobs are much harder. the other thing they'll be doing is going through the pocket litters, as one of your former guests said, raiding their houses, looking for computers and creating a network of accomplices and confederates throughout france, europe and elsewhere. they're also be pinging their allies and other intelligence services here in the united states the british, probably in the middle east and elsewhere, looking for information that will actually lead them to other individuals in france themselves. they're going to be sending in a lot of police raids throughout the next week or so. >> aki, i want to relay information we have just gotten.

this is not confirmed by nbc, but a french broadcaster made phone contact with both hostage takers. broadcasters spoke to "the cycle" at 9:45 local time pep said he was financed by aman al awlaki, who went to yemen and later killed in an american drone strike. he said he had been commissioned by al qaeda in yemen. the commentator said kouachi was spotted. the other hostage taker, coulibaly, the man who charged into the kosher market you see on your screen there, told bfn, the same french braeshgoadcaster, he coordinated his attack with charlie hebdo killers. he he contacted them at 3:45 while hostage taking was taking place and he claimed he belonged to islamic state. there's something strange about that information for a variety of reasons, which i want to talk about with all of you after we take this break. favorite book is nice.

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you're watching live break coverage of the situation in france which happens after an incredibly tense day. the hostage situations the two ongoing active hostage situations have been resolved. three of the four suspects are dead. the fourth suspect, we do not know her whereabouts, hayat boumeddiene. but amedy coulibaly who burst into the market with a gun, dead, killed in the french raid. said kouachi and cherif kouachi are both dead. laith, i want you to respond what we got from french broadcaster bfm who made contact with both coulibaly and said kouachi. cherif kouachi saying he was financed by al qaeda in yemen, commissioned by anwar al awlaki now deceased. coulibaly saying he belonged to

islamic state. they have been at each other's throats, isis and al qaeda. >> in february of 2014 al qaeda's central leadership essentially disowned isis, or what we call the islamic state today. when the islamic state announced it was expanding even further in places like yemen, libya and other places aqap specifically put out a document and a video condemning that decision and telling the islamic state to technically back off. so there have been at violent odds. of course, the islamic state and al qaeda's link in syria have been at violent odds for well over a year at this point. they have killed many of each other's fighters and commanders. so, at this point they are not in the same rank. >> so this raises the question evan right, whether -- which is something i think investigators and all want to tease out, all of us want to know in terms of

the scope of the plot. the scope of the plot indicates in some ways the danger and the threat, right? >> right. >> which is whether amedy coulibaly, the man who apparently shot the police officer and took hostages in the kosher market was essentially just jumping on the band wagon as it were or whether this was preplanned between the three of them. >> yeah because coulibaly says i was in coordination with them. if he's in coordination with them no one would make a mistake like this. no one -- no group would say aqap and someone would say isis. only someone uneducated in the school of jihadi would say something that foolish. unless perhaps, they weren't directly connected to either one. it's important to understand just because they say we did it or we did it with them or we got orders from them take that with a grain of salt. they have reason to say that. >> i would add another grain of salt of course, this is coming through the french broadcaster

bfn. there is presumably audio of this. >> i think we should draw the distinction right now what isis is about, which is establishing a caliphate. it's about gaining and holding territory. aqap is about raining chaos down on the west and about an ideology. the two are very different, and as we teased out here they are not inclusion, they are not collaborating. they are very separate entities. what we can do understanding what isis is about, we have to have a look inwardly as well. we talk about the extremists and what's gone on how terrible it is, but we have to look at our foreign policy. we have to look at creating vacuums. libya is an example. now we see isis training camps there. afghanistan was a similar thing versus the taliban. syria. this is why al qaeda in iraq this is why al baghdadi went from iraq into syria because

there was a complete lack of governance. we need to understand that and not promote it with our foreign policy. >> aki, we should note an important aspect of the timing. our understanding is that cherif kouachi, who is the younger brother, i believe it's cherif is the younger one who went to yemen -- >> no said. >> said's travel to yemen happened several years ago. before the explosion in the region, 2011. 2011 is the year anwar al awlaki was killed. we don't know if there was face-to-face interaction. whatever training took place several years before this plot came to fruition. >> yes. remember anyone who has taken weapons training and so forth, these -- these capabilities and these skills really degrade over time. that's why people are constantly

retraining. that's why police officers are constantly retraining and -- with their firearms and recertifying. you also have to remember sort of what evan talked about is that there was a really big scism between al qaeda affiliates and isis. so much so that al qaeda central, the head of al qaeda sent one of his top buddies to syria to make sure -- just to make sure there was not too much discord among the brothers. what did isis do? they blew him up in a suicide attack, which is quite a fitting end to this guy. so, there's a lot of bad blood between these organizations. what evan was saying f one group -- if one organization -- or these kouachi brothers said they were part of aqap and al awlaki sent him and the dellyi killer, this is jihadi 101, you don't make that mistake unless you're uncoordinated. >> the context here, when you

talk about syria is you know, we are, of course reporting breaking on france. it's monstrous what's happened. yesterday there was a suicide bombing in iraq that killed upwards of 20 shia worshippers. we have reports that boko haram in nigeria carried off a slaughter of unimaginable proportions. we don't have any confirmation but earlier reports of horrible slaughter there. the vast majority of all of this activity vast majority and the vast majority of its targets and the vast majority of where it is carried out is against muslims and in -- in muslim countries or in the middle east now nigeria. >> muslims have more of an incentive to get rid of al qaeda and isis than anybody else. frankly f you look at what's going on in these various different countries, it is arguable that the u.s. f we're going to make such a big deal about these attacks, these lone wolf attacks, we should also make a big deal when you know

thousands of people are slaughtered en masse in a place like syria. look, it's also to be said when people are slaughtered en masse in syria that's what leads to radicalism that's what leads to militarism that's what leads to isis. if we to want stop isis from gang a foothold it's not just what we do in france. it's about what we do in iraq nigeria, syria. i want to thank evan coleman, laith alkhouri aki. thank you for your insight as we have covered these events. we're in a situation now in which three of the four suspects are dead after raids by french tactical forces at both the kosher supermarket in eastern neighborhood in paris france and the printing press in an industrial park near charles de gaulle airport. the two parallel hostage situations unfolded throughout the day in paris, france with the world's attention trained on it. we saw french special forces

move in. we'll continue our live breaking coverage of these events as they unfold after this break. if i can impart one lesson to a new business owner, it would be one thing i've learned is my philosophy is real simple american express open forum is an on-line community, that helps our members connect and share ideas to make smart business decisions. if you mess up, fess up. be your partners best partner. we built it for our members, but it's open for everyone. there's not one way to do something. no details too small. american express open forum.

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nissan. innovation that excites. break news coverage continues right on now on "the cycle." a pair of bloody standoffs in france and the manhunt is not over. i'm toure with krystal ball, a richlt ari melber. 9 p.m. in paris, a city operation for another sleepless night. there's an international effort under way to find this woman, the lone surviving member of the cell that has been terrorizing france hayat boumeddiene, the suspected accomplice in the terrorists in a kosher hostage standoff. police say the pair is linked to the kouachi brother who is carried out wednesday's attack at charlie hebdo.

both brothers dead killed in the standoff at a printing shop. said went to yemen in 2011 and trained for months in al qaeda and met with anwar al awlaki. in total, at least 18 people are dead since the rampage began on wednesday. the french prime minister put it bluntly today, his country, france is at war. and here at home u.s. counterterror officials are now investigating any possible links between the french attacks and al qaeda. nbc's ron allen starts us off live from outside the grocery store, which is still an active crime scene at this late hour. ron, what do you know? >> reporter: well toure, what we don't know that's significant is the number of hostages who may have been killed at the grocery store, which is down the street and around the corner there. it's still an area that we're not allowed to get very close to. we're still several block as