easily absorbed calcium plus d. beauty is bone deep. >> the most urgent matter at hand continues to be that french authorities are continuing their search for the fourth suspect involved in the attacks in that country. she's thought to be the girlfriend of the suspect killed in today's hostage standoff at that kosher market in paris. he was killed by police, but she is still at large tonight. and police are on the lookout for her across france. that does it for us tonight. now it's time for "the last word" with lawrence o'donnell. >> good evening. we're continuing our live coverage tonight. alan derk wits will be back with me again tonight. we did not finish his conversation last night about why he said france rewards every terrorist. let's see what he says tonight. and before french police killed three terrorists today, the terrorists explained their motivation, saying, quote, we

are the prophet's defenders. >> we are following a developing situation in france. >> rapidly unfolding event live in the french country side. >> two brothers suspected in wednesday's terrorist attack are holed up inside that building. >> contact has been made through the anti-terrorism police. >> two people involved in a second hostage standoff. >> french military and anti-terrorism police have surrounded the kouachi brothers. >> not one, but two hostage crisis have played out. >> that's a flash bang. so that is the very first thing the assault team would do. >> tense, terrifying, shocking day in france. >> continuing smoke pouring out right now from the industrial center. >> french tactical units have

successfully raided both of those different locations. >> what we know for sure now is the three gunmen are dead. >> people really want this to be over. >> everyone should condemn completely this outrage. >> the united states stands with you today, stands with you tomorrow. we stand for freedom and hope. frac speaking french ] >> tonight in paris, the arc de triomphe is lit up with a sign that reads, paris is charlie. two separate hostage situations ended with three terrorists shot and killed by french police. another suspect, a woman, is still at large. the kouachi brothers who massacred 12 people two days ago were tracked to a location near charles de gaulle airport before

french police killed brothers. cherif spoke to a french tv reporter while he hid from police in a printing factory.

>> he first met cherif koachi in

2005 where they both served in prison. by 2009, amadi kolabali shot and killed a policewoman in a suburb outside of paris. according to police and today he took chosages at a kosher grocery store in paris and then called a french tv station.

>> french police stormed the croatiaer grocery store at the same time police were shooting and killing the koachi brothers at the other location. [ gun fire ] [ gun fire ]

police shot and killed kouachi and discovered he had already killed four people in the kosher grocery. the 15 hostages still alove when the police entered the store all survived. tonight, five people connected to the attacks are in police custody. police are still searching for a woman they say is connected to today's grocery store attack. joining me now with the latest is nbc news chief correspondent richard engel who is near the site where the two kouachi brothers were killed. also joining me, laura haim,

white house correspondent for the french network. richard, what do we know about the five people who are in custody. >> we know very little about them, in fact. the chief prosecutor in paris gave a very detailed press conference a couple of hours ago and laid out almost minute by minute what happened today, what the police learned, what they've been gathering, the kind of evidence, the weaponry that these two brothers were carrying. but they wouldn't say much about ongoing investigations. they wouldn't say much about the fourth suspect, the woman who is believed to be still at large. the french authorities still consider this very much an ongoing investigation. so in terms of the intelligence collection that is going on now, people who they have in custody, people who they are still

looking for, that much, the french are still keeping quite under wraps. >> and richard, tell us the significance of cherif kouachi saying today publicly that he was financed, backed by yemen's al qaeda. >> well, i think it takes away -- if it is to be believed, and there are many indications, there are many reasons why it seems very plausible, it means that this was in partisan al qaeda in yemen attack. it was an international attack. it was not a lone wolf attack. this wasn't some radical who decided on his own to carry out an operation. that was something that was planned. this was something that took months, if not a lot longer to conceptualize. and it shows a different scale of terrorism than we've been

accustomed to in the last several months when we saw that attack in sidney, which was just an individual who many local authorities just described as readvantaged, perhaps even mentally ill or the individual in canada who had been living on the street for some time. these individuals, these brothers were not like that. these were hardened islamists who had been in and out of jail, pb you should surveillance for a long time, traveled abroad to yemen, traveled abroad to syria according to french officials. so i think it is quite significant when you think about the scale and what they're able to accomplish. >> laura haim, you expressed 100% confidence that the french police were going to track down these two brothers who killed those cartoonists and started this. 100% confidence that it would happen. and you were completely confident that it would end in bloodshed. what was your reaction to the way it all happened today.

>> i was not surprised at all. they wanted that. they wanted to speak to the press. it's fascinating to see what happened to them when they called this news channel in france. when you speak french, when you understand the way they speak, they speak to the journalists like they're friends with the journali journalists. they don't seem afraid. they seem very relaxed. the brother is expressing in france, the full confidence about oh, we don't kill people. it's in the name of the prophet. this is very challenging for what's coming for all of us in the next weeks or months. now those people are going to inspire more people to do those types of things. the media are going to have a huge responsibility in the way those stories are going to be played live on tv. >> and today, al qaeda in yemen

said the group was directed in their attack against "charlie hebdo." and i'm wondering what you mean that will mean to france's response to this, having an actual geographic base out there as to whether these orders were coming from. >> there's actually a far more confusing element to this story. in the past, when we've talked about militant attacks or terrorist attack, one of the first questions asked has always been, well, who is responsible? which organization? and they were fairly clearly defined organizations. in this case, you saw the two brothers claiming that they were acting in the name of al qaeda in yemen and said that they were directly financed by anwar alaki. but the militant who entered the supermarket, he claimed that he was affiliated with isis, which is a rival

group with a very similar ideology. there's not that much in terms of their political goals or their religious leanings between the two. and i think because of the war in syria, the war in iraq, the internet where all of these different types of individuals can exchange ideas, we're seeing a much murkier picture where individuals could be attracted to al qaeda in yemen, but also like isis, maybe switch their allegiances to the groups. and it's becoming a muchless clear picture because of the large number of individuals who are fighting and meeting and collaborating on the battlefields of syria and iraq.

>> what he's describing is what seems like have others saying what you're describing. one terrorist saying he was backed by another. and yet, about them saying they were working together and coordinated to some extent. and so is that your -- what richard just described, is that your sense of how big this problem is in france? i'm just saying, i think he has fully arrived. and what we saw today was the french police people are calling the children of 9/11. those people, those brothers were very young when everything happened. after 9/11, according to my sources inside the french community, they grew up with

hate about everything, and then the war in iraq happened. and then abu ghraib happened. it was huge. then they could completely radicalize. one of them went to prison. he discovered a prison inside prison. and after it was completely over, they wanted to be extremist. they wanted to go to syria. they wanted to avenge abu ghraib. you're going to see that more and more often. i think in the next days, the big story is going to be this woman, what is happening with this woman who is still at large. >> thank you very much for joining me tonight. coming up, the leader whoft lebanese hezbollah groups makes a bold statement saying islamic extreatmentists have insulted the prophet mohammed more than any satirical cartoonist ever could and what can we learn from the tactics of the french police

today. a former boston police officer who led the search for the boston marathon bombers will join me. and in "the rewrite" tonight, what i hate about tv. does a freshly printed presentation fill you with optimism? then you might be gearcentric. right now, all printers are on sale. plus great deals on hp ink and toner. office depot & officemax. gear up for great.

more than 600 british citizens have gone to syria to join jihadists. up next, more details on exactly how the french police closed in on those terrorists today. you owned your car for four years.

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liberty mutual insurance. >> that's when police forces killed the kouachi brothers after a standoff. the brothers emerged from the woods surrounding the town account 8:30 a.m. local time. they hijacked a car. french police spotted the brothers driving that car. said kouachi was shot in the neck. the brothers fled the scene and holed new a nearby printing factory. they took the manager hostage but did not know that a second employee of the factory was hiding in a kitchen cup board on

another floor. that employee remained undefectundefect ed in the entire situation. after a seven-hour standoff, the brothers eemergencied from the factory and started shooting. officers return fired and tossed stun grenades. both suspects were killed and two officers were injured. both hostages were uninjured. in a simultaneous raid at the kosher market in paris, french police killed that terrorist and saved over a dozen hostages. four hostages had been killed by the terrorists before the police raid. in a speech later in the day, the president of france praised the french security forces. >> translator: i want to pay tribute to the courage, the bravery and the efficiency of the police officers and of all

of those who took part in these operations. i want to tell them that we are proud of them because when the order was given, they carried out the assault simultaneously and got the same result. they saved human lives, those of the hostages. >> joining me now is former superintendent and chief of the boston police department. he was the incident commander during the boston marathon bombing attack. i imagine when you were watching in this week, there were a lot of echos of what you went through in boston. >> there were a lot of emotions that i was going through as i watched my brothers and sisters in france. >> when i saw this situation in france, i have huge confidence in french police. i share that with some of my french guests who have been here. one of the oldest police forces

in the world, well over 200 years ago. and they have the advantage in that country of having basically three police forces, unlike the united states where there's 12,000 local police forces, 18,000 total law enforcement agencies. and so they always get to bring the best they have to every situation no matter where it is geographically in france. >> there's no doubt they well trained, well equipped. they do bring the best to bear to these challenges. they did an amazing job today. two tactical situations were going on. and everyone who is alive before those tactical raids started is alive today. >> these terrorists didn't really have a plan or an expectation of getting away. seemed like they were trying to

draw this out as long as they could. but what you were up against in boston, was it your sense the brothers when you look at all the evidence now were really trying to get away? or were they looking for an ending like this? >> we don't know. we don't know what the plan was. it might have been that the french authorities were so fast in getting on these targets that they couldn't go to their plan. i can't comment on the two suspects, we're not sure exactly what they're up to. but we wound up with very similar circumstances where subjects were trapped. we had to ask communities to stay indoors to help us get them in custody. >> will other police agencies be studying exactly how the police handled that situation in the kosher grocery store? that's the kind of thing that could happen anywhere in the united states? >> absolutely. and we do that around all these major event pips eve been traveling and learning, teaching lessons, learning from the

marathon. we deal with real life training exercises. they did a lot of stuff right. we're going to find some things they did wrong. that always happens. those police officers went into the french grocery store and no one died, other than the terrorists as a result of the police going in there. >> amazing. that video is erie. you know, someone who's been there in that threshold, you want to go in there as quickly as possible. and that grate, going up so slowly, the adrenaline was coursing through my veins. vaj how intense it was for them. they went in knowing they were going to face machine gun fire,

believing most likely, when we first started in law enforcement, i first started in law enforcement, you had to worry about gun fire in these types of situations. now we have to worry about bombs. we have to worry about chemical and biological weapons. they went in and and faced a hail of bullets. >> dan linski thank you very much for joining us tonight. >> thank you for having me, larry. >> coming up, one leadercy sais islamic extremists have done more to harm islam than anyone else in to history. and alan dershowitz is back tonight and we'll see if he still believes what he said last night, france rewards every terrorist. if you have copd, ask your doctor about once-daily anoro ellipta. it helps people with copd breathe better for a full 24hours. anoro ellipta is the first fda-approved product containing two long-acting bronchodilators in one inhaler.

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>> translator: those terrorists, those madmen, those fanatics have nothing to do with islam. >> the associated press reports the leader of hezbollah says islamic extremists have insulted islam and the prophet mohammed more than those publishing satirical cartoons mocking islam. he did not directly mention the paris attacks, but he said islamic extremists who behead and slaughter people, a reference to the isis group's rampages in iraq and syria, have done more harm to islam than anyone else in history. joining me now is the executive director on the council on islamic relations. do you agree with what that leader of hezbollah said, that these killings by terrorists have done more harm to islam

than anything else in history? >> absolutely. and this is what our religion say all along. and let me just also quote a very important thing, although they claimed to have said or allegedly they said they have avenged the prophet mohammed. i would say they've avenged their egos, their little brains. because they seem to be illiterate about islam and what the koran says about mockery. mockery is there. we expect it from people who sometimes poke fun at the religion. this is not new to us. even the prophet himself. he was addressed in the koran when they mock you, just be patient. be patient what they say about you or to you. and even in a very clear statement in the koran, chapter 25 versus 63, it says to the believers that when the ignorant

address them, they say peace. so our response to mockery is a peaceful response. not killing, not avenge as these individuals have done. so yes, they have diverted from the religion that i and 1.6 billion people believe and live it. and therefore, yes, i agree with the president of france that they have nothing to do with our faith by millions of people around the world, including 5 million in france and million others in the u.s. and in europe. >> you know, we just heard the president of france say that these attacks had nothing to do with islam at all. the killer, the terrorist themselves say that is not true. that's exactly point. i want to read what cheri kouachi said and actually quote him today what he said over the phone. he said we are not killers. we defend the prophet with we don't kill women. we kill no one. we defend the prophet. we kill people who insult him.

he said, this isn't us. we have an honor code in islam. now, i think some of the confusion comes based on what you just said the koran does not support that statement, but that is not the only guidance religious muslims have. there is also sharia law. and there are those who insist that sharia law does indeed call for the death penalty for anyone who draws an image of mohammed. >> this is completely ridiculous. and there is no such thing called sharia law. either sharia or law. the two mean the same thing. and those derived from the koran do not ever say that you should kill people who mock you or disagree with you. the basis of my faith is freedom. it's a very clear verse in the koran, in chapter 256, that let there be no compulsion of

religion. this is the foundation of my faith. you can not compel people to be like you or believe like you or believe what you believe. and therefore, they have to be free. the way you are, you are free. you can not impose your faith, tradition and your thinking on other people. so i do not know where they invented and they came up with this notion that you have to kill those who disagree with you or those who dot no -- >> are you saying that there are competing versions of sharia around the world? that someone in london might say sharia requires this, someone in syria might say something else and someone in michigan might say sharia does not require any of those things. >> absolutely not, lawrence. again, there's 1.6 to 1.7 billion people around the world. do you see them committing violence around the world? we're talking about only maybe a few hundred, few thousand who

misunderstand, misinterpret or take things out of context. and this happens in many traditions. it is not only new to muslim ps .it's not limited to us muslims. >> there are no other faith traditions in the world that are going out and killing people for cartoons or drawings about any religious figures. that magazine had done drawings of the pope. there's not a catholic in the world who is motivated to even a violent thought about that as far as we flow. >> you're talking about only few individual. >> but what we are not talking about is every or other religions in the world with this particular phenomenon. >> you're talking only about few individuals. >> thank you very much. i really appreciate it. >> coming up in "the rewrite" what i hate about tv.

>> those investigating david petraeus have recommended that he be charged for misusing classified information. they blooe he shared classified information with his mistress. he has denied wrong doings. the possibility of an indictment is now ebeing reviewed by eric holder. up next, what i hate about tv. hint, it is about to happen right now. ♪ ♪ ♪ you're only young once. unless you have a subaru. (announcer) the subaru xv crosstrek. symmetrical all-wheel drive plus 34 mpg. love. it's what makes a subaru, a subaru.

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43 minutes and 40 seconds is the standard including entertainment television. all your dramas are 44 minutes long or less. and then, of course, there is the problem that the show must end at a precise moment on the clock. in the case of this program, it must end every night at exactly 11:00 p.m. never 11:01 p.m. or 11:02 p.m. 11:00 p.m. that's it. the worst thing that can happen is that in, say, the last two minutes of this show someone says something that deserves four minutes of conversation, and that happened last night. retired harvard law professor alan derk wits was my last guest and the design of the show, we gave the segment double the amount of time that we usually give the final segment because i

know alan dershowitz always has a lot to say aechb it's always worth listening to, and he is usually a cogent, precise and economical speaker. i know many of you have watched this program on nights when the final segment of the show is two minutes long or three minutes long. i wasn't going to let that happen last night to professor dershowitz and we managed to preserve seven minutes, three seconds for the final segment, which i think is maybe the longest final segment we have ever done. but it wasn't long enough. at a time when the manhunt in france was still going on, we gave alan dershowitz four minutes and 46 seconds to discuss the recent allegations that he had sex with an underaged girl who also had sex with a billionaire client of attorney dershowitz. mr. dershowitz responded to the accusation against him point by point and to my questions forcefully and i thought very effectively using careful language and direct references to documentary evidence.

one of his answers was two minutes long. but every word was relevant, on point and emphatic. then with two minute, 16 seconds left in the show, i asked professor dershowitz about something he said about france yesterday. his exact words were, they reward every terrorist. professor dershowitz immediately said this is true. i said that is absolutely not true. then he interrupted me in my next question and i interrupted him. i got in a few one liners. professor dershowitz got in a few one liner and a few paragraphs but it was messy and contentious and not the kind of tv i want to participate in or watch. you want to stand by they reward every terrorist? >> they have -- >> tell me how -- >> they have -- let me give you the context in which i said it. >> it's a crazy thing to say. france does not reward -- >> it's right. they have the worst record of

any country -- >> do you want to say they've rewarded a few terrorists? are you really going to sit here and say they rewarded every terrorist? >> virtually every terrorist who has been convicted and sent to prison in paris has either gotten out -- the point i was making was a general one. and that is they voted for palestinian statehood for a country that was built on terrorism. they have done everything to avoid joining the fight on terrorism. i feel terrible for these people. i feel terrible for -- >> virtually every country in the world has voted for that statehood, you know that. >> the united states hasn't. >> virtually every country in the world. >> good countries don't vote for it. >> so when you vote for it, it's bad countries? >> i have written a book called "why terrorism works" and what i do is prove in that book that terrorism is rewarded and particularly all through europe. terrorism is rewarded. europe is part of the problem. france is part of the problem. i feel terribly sorry for the

victim victims but france is part of the problem. maybe this will be a wake-up call and they will join the war against terrorism rather than reward terrorism. >> i will advise you -- >> and then i had to end it because we were out of time. now, i know some viewers think that i get in argumentative interruption-laced discussions every night on this show. but they're actually quite rare, because i hate that stuff. if you check the record, that stuff probably happens no more than a couple of times a year on this program. but if those are the only shows of mine that you see, that's what you think i do. that argumentative stuff is always more memorable and so it lasts longer in people's memories than the well reasoned calm television talk which is, of course, much more fegting. the only reason confrontations like that ever happen on this program is the brutal time limit we're working with. i know there's 90 minutes left in the segment.

something is being said that i can't let go unanswered. i interrupt and then the discussion crashes to a close. if i have the kind of time they have on c-span, i could let everyone take as long as they want to answer every question i could think carefully about what i was going to say after that. just wait for my turn to speak. i would love to do that. some of you actually enjoyed that confrontation tonight. he con flated insufficient punishment with reward. i lost respect for you tonight, lawrence. even if dershowitz is wrong, you were rude and unprofessional, talking over him and doc holly tweeted, i really love alan dersh. humble beginnings from brooklyn, but his great interview with

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>> alan dershowitz shocked me yesterday by saying this about france. they reward every terrorist. what shocked me is that a former harvard law school professor and lawyer could say something so reckless and provably untrue. today is not the first time french police have killed terrorists. france has imprisoned terrorists for life. but last night, alan dershowitz said every terrorist who had been convicted and sent to prison in paris has been released. that is simply false.

and last night, alan dershowitz cited france's support as evidence that france rewards every terrorist. president george w. bush supp t supported and supports palestinian state hood. last night alan dershowitz said good country, that was his term, good countries don't support palestinian state hood. that sounds like alan dershowitz thinks that harmless little ireland is a bad country. that every african country is a bad country. that every south american country is a bad country. every asian country is a bad country. and the united states is a bad country because the united states does, in fact, support palestinian state hood. what shocked me about all of this is when alan dershowitz speaks about legal matters he speaks about the lawyer he is, careful, precise, measured language. every word counts. every word has meaning. and so when i hear him say

france rewards every terrorist, i think he means every. i don't think he means some. i don't think he means a few. i don't think he means something poetic that is different from the precise words that he has so carefully chosen. here to explain what alan dershowitz really means is former harvard law school professor alan dershowitz, author of "ter tror tunnels -- e case for israel's just war against hamas." thank you very much for coming back. i am sorry we ran out of time last night. we're going to have more time. i want you to respond in whatever way you like. but what i'm hoping after what you saw in france today, you can at least now retract or correct the statement france rewards every terrorist. >> well, first, lawrence, thank you for having me back on. i'm certainly happy to make peace. i enjoy your show. what really got me angry is i felt a little bit as if i were blind sided last night.

because i was asked to come on about one subject and then suddenly you threw this other subject at me. i can imp pro-vise. then you quoted this totally out of context. my point is when you reward any terrorist, you reward all terrorists. you can't pick or choose the way france has historically done. for year, france was releasing all the middle east terrorists that they were arresting because they were trying to protect their own homeland. they were saying as long as terrorists don't attack us, we're going to get in bed and play footsie with terrorists. they wanted to export terrorism and they ended up importing terrorism. very, very selfish. now, the point about palestinian statehood, as you probably know, i support palestinian statehood, as long as it's based on a negotiated two-state solution. what i was opposed to is what france did, voting in the united nations unilaterally to accept the palestinian state, which included hamas. which france recognizes as a terrorist organization. and when you reward hamas, you

reward all terrorists. when you reward any terrorist, you reward all terrorists. i wrote a whole book about that and mentioned it yesterday. my book "why terrorism works" the thesis is you can't pick and choose the way france and many other h other western european countries do. the point i was making was a very general one, that you can not reward any terrorists, lest all terrorists become incentivized. i think that's been the problem around the world today. i think almost every country picks and chooses. decides which terrorist it's going to get in bed with, which terrorist it's going to oppose. i commend france for what it did today. i think france has changed its policy. france, because it's become a victim of attack. when it was not the victim of attack, when it was trying to play the game of don't attack us, and we'll very gently let you off the hook. germany did the same thing. england did the same thing. and i'm not suggesting countries are bad because they want a

palestinian state. i think countries have bad policy whence they reward hamas and palestinians who have refused to accept israel's two-state solution repeatedly. palestinians have six times rejected offers of a two-state solution. why you reward the rejectors and punish those who made the offer. that's rewarding terrorism. i think, lawrence, we can agree that when you reward any terrorist, you reward the concept of terrorism. that's what i meant. if i was imprecise, you can give me a b-minus. i'm happy to come back, though, anytime if we can have a civil, legitimate conversation. just have to give me a little advanced warning what the subject is going to be. then we can have a good conversation. >> i get that. and as i explained in the previous thing, i discovered that quote about france after we agreed to talk about the other case that we had last night. but what we don't agree on is the use of the word reward. now, that is your choice and it's your choice for emphasis

and conveying your meaning. i do not embrace that word in this situation. carlos the jackal who the french went after starting in 1975 for terrorist activity, they finally got him. it took them 20 years. he's in prison for life in france. they snatched him out of sudan in a bag. >> because he was attacking them. >> but see again, to go back to something you just said in that response, you said you think that today france has changed policy. they haven't changed policy. >> because they -- >> they were attacked in 1975 and they went after this guy right away. the french police have killed terrorists in the street before today. nothing changed today. >> their own terrorism. they've killed their own terrorists. they still -- now they've began to become a little tougher on middle eastern terrorists that don't endanger them. my point i was making is you either have to fight all of terrorism or you're going to be losing. france thought they could attack only terrorists who attack them

and then they will be safe. it backfired. it turned out it became a safe haven for terrorists. they welcomed arafat when he was clearly still a terrorist. they welcomed ckomeni and other terrorists. due to mature subject matter, viewer discretion is advised.