belgium. katie tur is monitoring developments. what do we know? >> it is a very fluid situation. we know the main belgium broadcaster is reporting that the prosecutor's office is saying two are dead and one person is seriously injured on a raid of a suspected terrorist cell in the town of verviers. we are hearing at least one other person was arrested as many as 12 potentially arrested. this is part of a number of raids across belgium for people that they had been under surveillance from just returning from syria. these three people that were directly involved in this say they were under surveillance and do believe they just returned from syria. witnesses are reported they heard one explosion followed by a rapid succession of gun fire. more explosions potentially three or four more explosions and then were told to run and take cover and stay inside.

there is also a newspaper report saying that they believe this raid averted another "charlie hebdo" style attack in belgium. that is not confirmed at the moment. if it is confirmed that is quite a big deal. it is unclear if this is directly related to "charlie hebdo" attacks in paris and whether or not these suspects had dealings or interactions with attackers out there. that is not clear at the moment. we also know that there were no police officers, no authorities injured during this raid according to the belgium tv reports. this is a very fluid situation and all of this information could change. a little background about belgium only about 11 million people. per capita they have the most foreign fighters in iraq and syria at the moment believed to be about 150 people fighting in those foreign wars as we speak. certainly a tense situation in that country. as you have said the raids and the tension bleeding over into all areas of europe right now.

this is just another example. there is a news conference that is supposed to begin in the next few minutes. you can see it right here on the screen. we will bring it to you once it starts. we hopefully will learn more about the details of this raid and just who was involved and who was arrested and what they believe they were able to avert. >> thank you very much. senior analyst at flash point global partners. katie gave us a few details in belgium. we are talking about a potential raid that was targeting people who had just returned from syria. she talked about the high per capita number of belgiums fighting in iraq and syria. do we know at this point if those that were targeted in this raid did have any ties to the attackers in paris? >> we cannot ascertain obviously any of the details for now. we know belgium has suffered from the rise of a number of radicals who travel to syria. we know there was the attack at

the jewish museum in brussels by one who did travel to syria and spent well over a year in syria before he returned pretty much unnoticed. he received idea logical and technical training. he had the jihadist ideology and carried out his acts. it is the place where allegedly attackers purchased weapons. it has the border with france. there is a frenzy right now that we don't want the same attacks that took place in france to take place in belgium. thus belgium security apparatus is top of their game right now. >> we are looking at a map of belgium. are there other hot spots in europe where there are particularly large muslim communities from which foreign fighters are being drawn into the isis attacks in iraq and syria?

>> yes indeed. i think germany is ranked on the third in the european countries where many have travelled to syria and iraq and joined isis and al qaeda's links there. we know that there has been a number of european nationals from france belgium and germany but going all the way to chechnya and russia. some from turkey. we have a bunch coming from northern europe and sweden and denmark. europe has been flagged by the rise of radical elements there. many have expressed views of violent jihad. we are seeing it actualizing in europe. >> thank you very much. we will of course keep an eye on developments in belgium as you can see the press conference getting prepped and underway. we will bring you the latest as we learn it. secretary of state john kerry has just arrived in paris where he is expected to meet with french president francois hollande tomorrow to offer washington support.

>> basically to share a big hug with paris and express the affection of the american people for france and for our friends there who have been through a terrible time. >> and one week after the city was a city under siege tensions remain high with police and judges cracking down thout the city. there have been at least 54 arrests since the attacks, 37 for so-called advocacy of terrorism. a new picture shows grocery store shooter preparing for his deadly assault. joining me now is ron allen live in paris. what is the latest where you are? >> reporter: joy there may be a direct connection between the events happening in belgium or may not be. here investigators are looking into a report that he was in belgium in recent months trying to buy weapons for the attack

here presumably and met with an arms dealer who turned himself into authorities after the attacks happened here in paris. and to say that he had tried to do a deal with him. there are significant reports that the weapons used by the kouachi brothers were purchased somewhere in belgium whether during that transaction or some other time is unclear. there is an obvious link between here and there, connection between here and there. there are also reports that the kouachi brothers did buy weapons in belgium back in 2010 in connection with another possible plot to spring another radical who they had been associated with out of prison here in paris. a lot going on and belgium we know has a reputation of being something of a weapons bizarre. and, of course authorities here in paris and throughout europe are on very high alert looking for possible accomplices of the

gun men who carried out those attacks here. we know, for example, that there are also reports that he and his girlfriend spent time in spain in the days before the attacks. we know she moved on from madrid to turkey and on to syria and was in syria when the attacks happened. we also know that the authorities are concerned about other people who might be associated because a driver or someone who took him to the grocery store that day seems to be unaccounted for. there is also a number of other leads that authorities are trying to pin down. again, yes, it is a dense web. authorities are trying to unravel it. it may have a deep connection to belgium we are finding out tonight. >> thank you very much. let's go back. we are now looking at live vird video, amateur video showing the raid that took place in belgium. this is amateur video taken of

that raid where in reportedly two people were killed, none of them police or authorities. if you are there let's talk a little bit about the belgium connection. ron allen reporting that belgium is sort of a weapon [ inaudible ] what do you make of the few more tidbits of information that we are getting about the belgium connection? >> we know there was a weapon exchange. the alleged dealer, if you will the weapons dealer handed himself into authorities reported in the last 48 hours. he might have maybe some tips that maybe lead authorities to the capture of other cell members that he may have sold weapons to. we cannot ascertain the connection between the attacks

in belgium. some of the france attackers have travelled to belgium and dealt with belgium weapons dealer it makes the problem that much more complex. we don't know where these weapons have landed. we don't know how many actual jihaddists from the cell or other cells, many of its members are still on the loose. they are still at large. we have no idea how many members of this cell are on the loose. >> and how strong is the intel and the intelligence sharing between eu nations when it comes to terrorism and comes to antiterrorism activity? we see it is now spreading. the raids are spreading from country to country. how sophisticated is the intelligence? they seem to be very small numbers of people who are acting essentially on their own. >> i believe ever since the war in syria was ignited i think european nations had began paying more attention to the

jihaddy problems they are facing in their own communities or the fact that many nationals travel to these zones. i think that creates somewhat of an environment for cooperation among the european nations to share intelligence and have some sort of coordinated intelligence gathering regarding european nationals specifically because they have european pass ports and are able to travel between the countries with loose or almost no scrutiny. >> as we look at amateur video of the raid in belgium in the city in eastern belgium where two people were killed in an anti-terror raid there. as we continue to look at that video, how credible are the claims of responsibility that we hear coming out? or is it more opportunistic? is there evidence that there was formal coordination between the kouachi brothers and mr.

coulibaly? >> there is no proof that would lead us to believe that al qaeda put the hit recently but we know that at least one of the kouachi brothers has travelled to syria or travelled to yemen in 2011 likely met with al-laki. the mere fact that they claimed responsibility for the credit at least tells us that the group had somewhat of a prior college to this even if it was years ago and perhaps capitalized on the mere fact that the -- >> obviously there are two drivers that are still unaccounted for, whoever was driving to the attack that took place on "charlie hebdo." those people still unaccounted for as well as one of the most wanted people clearly in europe. hang on for me. i want to bring katie tur back

in. we are looking at amateur video of the raid that took place in eastern belgium. a fairly public operation it does seem especially since an amateur was able to capture it on video. >> it seems like it was in a neighborhood neighborhood. i am reading reports that the police came in before the attack and said to get inside and to take cover. there was a warning before this happened and a little bit of video out of belgium tv that appeared to show the apartment still on fire the one that i guess was the subject of the raid. we are also hearing that the antibomb disposal unit is there on site trying to secure the location. it's unclear if the explosion was detonated by the people inside that building or if the explosions were started by the police. we know witnesses said they heard one very big explosion followed by a rapid succession of gun fire like machine guns

going off and then more explosions, two or three to four more explosions after that. rbtf the main belgium tv unit said there are two dead one seriously injured. we had reports earlier that three were dead. right now we are going with two dead and one seriously injured and potentially a number of others that were arrested in this raid. these people inside this building we are told we believe that they were under surveillance because they had just returned from syria. now, this raid was part of a number of other raids that were going on in belgium at the same time, a number of other people that they were monitoring that had just come back from syria and iraq. we know that belgium is a pretty small country. per capita they have the most foreign fighters that go off to fight in the wars in syria and iraq about 150 people as of now. there was also an arms dealer that was arrested. the lawyer just told belgium tv

that after he saw what happened at paris seeing the photos of coulibaly he started a panic. this arms dealer is apparently allegedly the person who sold the arms to coulibaly, the man in the supermarket attack in paris. according to his lawyer he turned himself in and wanted to be in police custody rather than be sought out by the cops. we believe he bought the weapons for about 8,000 euros which enabled him to go back into paris pretty much unnoticed by authorities. anything over 10,000 euros you get stopped and checked. he was able to fly under the radar. we are getting a little bit of amateur video. it is a pretty scary situation for the residents in the area at the time hearing the gun fire and the explosions obviously already on alert and feeling

tense considering what had just happened in paris. you can see the fire in this video, as well, certainly a scary situation. we are hoping to get a little more concrete information in the next few minutes once the news conference starts in belgium, get concrete facts of how many were targeted and how many are dead. and just how many people have been arrested. so far still not that much concrete facts at the moment just what we are hearing from belgium tv. we want to stress that this is a fluid situation and these facts are definitely subject to change in the next few hours. >> thanks very much. stay with us. i want to go back very quickly to lathe. as we are getting more details i want to stipulate that the video you are seeing now is the amateur video in which you can hear the sounds of the raid. it is night video, very dark video that has not been verified by nbc news. the other video earlier is of the scene after the raids took

place. i'm wondering if you are hearing any chatter so far on these networks that your organization does monitor of the extremist groups and whether they are in preparation for more scrutiny by authorities and whether these kinds of raids cause these networks to scatter their operations to change what they are doing or if it is seen as a hazard of what they are doing. >> the details began unraveling approximately an hour ago. jihaddists began taking to social media and in many different ways celebrating what is going on in belgium. they are not presenting information about identities or the whereabouts or kind of expressing insider knowledge about this plot. however, they are celebrating and being jubilant about this attack. they believe that this is going to continue in europe and will

continue into more european nations specifically those who are allied with the u.s.-led coalition that is targeting syria and iraq sites of islamic state. >> i don't know if you know this information but i am curious about this arms dealer who turned himself in wanted to tell authorities what his contacts had been. if you can explain a little bit about the difference in the way arms are traded bought and sold in europe. gun laws are much, much stricter. my understanding is it is not easy to get your hands on the kinds of weapons that coulibaly had. >> weapons specifically high caliber rifles are extremely rare and very difficult to find. in western europe they are much more difficult to obtain than eastern europe. in regions that are much closer to russia and a little bit of the lawless areas of chechnya

these weapons are much easier to obtain from that part of the world than in western europe. it is really a head scratcher to really think about how they were able to obtain such high caliber weapons without appearing on the radar of the authorities. >> hang on and stay with us. we have katie standing by in london as we continue to follow news of anti-terrorism raid in belgium in the town of verviers in eastern belgium. like, literally ran into him. [rambling]. this story had 30 minutes left... until kim realized that stouffer's mac and cheese is made with real cheddar aged to perfection for 6 long months. when you start with the best cheddar, you get the best mac and cheese. so, what about jessica? what about her? stouffer's. made for you to love. nestle. good food. good life.

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verviers. they are starting in dutch. we are waiting to see if they switch to french so we can bring you a translation of what is being said. they are discussing the police raid that took place in the city of verviers in which two people were killed and several arrested, part of the antiterrorism sweeps that are sweeping outside of paris where, of course, the "charlie hebdo" attacks have been the focus of the world's attention over the last two weeks. now you are looking at amateur video which you can see on the left side of your screen amateur video taken of those raids. if we brought the audio back you can hear the sound of gun shots on those cameras. that a amateur video. as we wait for this press conference to switch into french let's go back to katie. any new information on that person that was potentially injured in the raid? >> we don't have anything new right now. we are waiting for confirmation

of cold hard facts essentially from this news conference. i know we are waiting for them to switch to french so we can translate it a little more easily. we know the main belgium tv station in the country is reporting two dead and one seriously injured. there were earlier reports that three people were dead but at least two dead as of now and one seriously injured. this was part of a raid on an alleged terrorist cell in the town of verviers. it was part of a number of raids that were going on across the country at the same time. this is the one that seemed to end in violence and gun fire and explosions. witnesses say they heard one very large explosion followed by rapid succession of gun fire. you can hear it in this amateur video, machine gun fire and then explosions. it is not clear if the explosions were detonated by people inside the building or by

police or started by police. it is not clear at the moment right now. you can see the apartment or the home that was being raided was still on fire for quite some time. we are told that the bomb detonation units are on scene trying to assess the situation to make sure that it is safe to go into this area. residents say it was a very scary scene. we are hearing that the police were able to go in there before this all happened and to tell people to warn them that something was about to go down. unclear, though if the people that were the target of the attacks were also warned by this. the residents in the area say it was a terrifying scene there, on high alert, a lot of tension because of what was happening in paris. >> i want to interrupt you because it does appear they are switching to french. we are going to listen to the english translation of the news conference. >> translator: these suspects opened fire using war arms on

federal police but then they were neutralized. two suspects have died and a third was intercepted. zero witnesses and zero police men were harmed during this intervention. at this moment we can't actually give anymore information as the investigation is underway. yet another press conference will be tomorrow morning at 11:00 a.m. given the importance of the police work and the work of the special forces today along with the antiterrorism cells from brussels we would like to recognize the wonderful impecc impeccable work of the police today as well as the work of the special forces and the federal

police. given the particularity of the situation we have heightened our alert from level three to level four for all of belgium. and have stayed at level two in other areas. >> these search warrants were executed in an investigation concerning several people who we think are in an operational cell and certain people came back from syria. during the investigation we

found that this group was about to commit terrorist attacks in belgium. during the search warrant certain suspects immediately opened fire with automatic weapons at special forces of the police. they opened fire during several minutes before being neutralized. two of the suspects were killed. a third one has been arrested. luckily during this intervention no police men was hurt neither a civilian. the investigation is still going on and we cannot give further information. another press conference will be organized tomorrow at 11:00 here at the federal prosecution office. you will also understand that this intervention this operation asked a lot of the police forces which were helped by security services and special

forces of the police. the organization who has to evaluate has allocated three to four for police services in belgium and stayed at two with special attention for certain places. >> you are listening to a live press conference that is being given by the office of the belgium federal prosecutor talking about the raid in which two suspects were killed. prosecutor saying the suspect opened fire on police who were serving a search warrant. the suspects opened fire with automatic weapons. two of the suspects were killed. a third was arrested. no police were harmed.

at the press conference the federal prosecutor's office praised special forces local police as well as federal police who took part in the raid and said there will be another press conference tomorrow morning 11:00 a.m. belgium time to discuss what happened. let me bring in lathe who has been joining us over the course of the afternoon along with heather from new america as well as mikey kay, a security expert. i will start with what we know now. the pieces we are putting together, a search warrant the response is automatic weapons fire. >> i think what we are starting to see here is that there is increased tension down in europe obviously after the "charlie hebdo" attacks. i think what's now heightened the stimulus levels of the intelligence community and the security forces is they want to be preventive rather than reactive.

obviously "charlie hebdo" was all about reaction. intelligence communities weren't able to prevent that attack so they went in reactive mode. when we saw coulibaly that was called a very reactive dynamic fluid scenario. what is going on now is the intelligence communities across europe has come together. the communication level increased and starting to pull resources and gone into prevention rather than cure, proactive rather than reactive mode. we know there are a lot of jihad jihaddists from france and belgium. this has been a huge concern. this is coming home to roost. i think what the "charlie hebdo" attacks have done is that it has heightened the stimulus levels of the intelligence community and made them more risk adverse. the intelligence community might have been tracking individuals. instead of waiting for them to

gain more evidence because what they have to do is if they make an invest they need to have a subsequent amount of evidence. there is a threshold. what i think has happened now is prevention is better than cure and they are taking action sooner and not letting things develop. i think that is what we are kind of starting to see here. brussels as we know has a history of this. we know about the jewish people that were killed at the museum in may. that was a french-borne jihaddist. we know there were reports of a couple that were arrested after coming back from syria and they were planning assault on the european commission. so there is lots of history of this happening in belgium and seems to be a lot of connections with belgium and france. the distance between the border 75 miles where the kouachi brothers were apprehended. it is close and connected. the summary of what we are seeing today is intelligence and

security forces across france and belgium taking action sooner rather than later. >> and also the connection and the very coherent strategy meeting focusing on people who have travelled to and from syria. talk a little bit about if you could the connection there in terms of yemen, syria, two very distinct countries that appear to be playing a very significant role in what we are seeing now across europe. do we have heather? we may not have heather. we do. let's go to heather herbert on that question. >> what we are seeing joy, is people who were known to french belgium and european authorities for years and some cases decades and who frankly were looking for a cause whether it was iraq syria, whether it was yemen. so the puzzle to tease out now is like the three french attackers who had known each other in extremist circles in

paris and some went to syria and yemen. the struggle for intelligence is to tease out who is connected to whom and who is getting traded where. if i say i'm isis and michael says he is al qaeda and yemen but the two of us get together and talk and exchange ideas and weapons and plans then you have to do your analysis on multiple levels. and then even after you have done your analysis you then have which is clear is where the french authorities had fallen down to figure out who you actually need to intercept before you get from the planning stage into the violent stage. that's the putting together of pieces that i think european forces are looking around and saying we have to play some catch up right now. >> indeed. to go to you because it is i think confusing sometimes for american audiences to keep these different organizations and connections straight. you did have the kouachi brothers declaring themselves to be loyal to al qaeda and arabian

peninsula and yet you have a connection in this case to syria which i think for most people speaks isis. you definitely have these sort of very distinct organizations there that in some sense is competitive. how can these security forces start to put together the webs of connections if it is just confusing in terms of who is loyal to who and if they are working with these organizations? >> i think first and foremost in regards to this case in belgium they have lucked out by having intercepted one of the suspects who was not killed. so he might be a treasure-trove of information all kind of intelligence about the processes of operation and plotting and so on and so forth but what kind of lengths did this cell have to outside parties whether to isis in syria or al qaeda in yemen or any other radical faction. what we can say is whether isis

or al qaeda they have preached operations. we know isis has amplified that call for attacks in western societies specifically after the coalition launched the air strike campaign. we have to track very carefully but i think intelligence is absolutely key here and the fact that belgium authorities have a suspect in custody should be a great step forward towards figuring out what this is all about and putting the bigger picture together. >> that is one of the main reasons why authorities are so eager to track down and find boumeddiene. >> i was reading on air the perpetrator of the attacks in 2012 he killed four jews and

three soldiers in 2012. he had training in pakistan and afghanistan before traveling to syria and jordan. we know that you have been engaged in afghanistan since late 2001. so this has been going on for a long time. this is nothing new. these networks have been growing for years. how you actually counter those networks and how you actually infiltrate those networks is really, really hard. one of the things that we have relied on in the intelligence community is human intelligence. we talk about drones and we talk about the ability to monitor pattern of life with the cameras so they watch, they listen electronic intelligence. human intelligence is so important in all of this. having the ability to plant someone and grow them within an organization is absolutely key to preventing the type of

attacks, to monitor the trafficking of people going from one continent to the other and understanding also what type of training they are doing, how they are becoming radicalized, what are the capability of them. how do they intend on carrying that out and using that capability once they come back. the big thing that they have is the ability to radicalize people within countries with french pass ports and american passports because they are much harder to track. the other thing that we must be mindful of is understanding to what extent are they actually reallyfluencing the "charlie hebdo" attacks of this world. how much involvement have they had? it is easy to go on camera after an event and say we laid out the attack and financed the attack and had complete operational control of the operations. that's fine. that's hear say and you have to

have a second resource of information. yes it is a huge problem but we have to be careful about working ourselves into a spin and giving these organizations more credit due than we can see. >> when we come back on the other side you begged two questions that i want to come back to on the other side. one is the question of human intelligence. before they were isis or isil they were al qaeda in iraq. it stemmed from our lengthy involvement in iraq and afghanistan. we had our troops on the ground no matter how much intelligence we took out of those countries. let's talk about that and also the potential for self-radicalization in these european countries outside of those groups and whether the social issues within those countries how much of a role that plays. heather herbert is coming back as well as michael kay. you are watching msnbc.

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and we are back lots going on this afternoon. we recently just monitored or just listened to a press conference out of belgium about a raid that took place in which two people were killed several arrested as police in verviers in the eastern part of belgium attempted to serve a search warrant on three suspects two were killed one survived and is in custody. katie, what is the latest? >> the prosecutor's office said when police approached this building that they immediately opened fire the suspects immediately opened fire on the police on federal authorities with what they are calling a war grade weapon. machine guns. witnesses say they heard explosions which were not referenced in the news conference. nobody spoke about them and whether or not there were explosions or if it was a ton of gun fire. we can see from amateur video

that we have not been able to independently confirm but we can see that there was a fire of some sort after what we are hearing were explosions within this building. witnesses say they heard an explosion and then heard a rapid gun fire machine gun fire that sounded very much like fire works going off and then more explosions. police are confirming that two people are dead and a third was arrested. they say that zero witnesses, zero by standers and no police men were injured during this attack during this raid. this was part of raids that were going on across belgium at the same time. we have been told that ten different houses of people were being investigated because of their ties to syria. these people had just come back from syria. belgium, a country just 11 million people has the most per capita number of people fighting in foreign wars in syria and iraq most foreign fighters. about 150 are out there right

now. it is a very tense situation in the country. it is a lot of monitoring going on with these people who come back home with their pass ports and there was worry they would try to do a "charlie hebdo" style attack there. police have confirmed that they believe they were able to stop something quite big. we were reporting earlier that a police source told a local paper there that they believe they actually stopped a "charlie hebdo" style attack by doing this raid and that is what they just confirmed in that news conference. still they are not releasing many more details after that. they said they are going to have another news conference tomorrow morning at 11:00 a.m. local time. that is about 5:00 a.m. eastern time. hopefully more information will come out of that. right now they are trying to continue their operations. they are trying to continue to surveill certain people so that they can stop anything from happening. i know europe is going through a lot right now and there is a lot of concern across the continent about what exactly is happening. there are reports that terror

cells were activated after the "charlie hebdo" attacks in paris. police across the continent and here in the uk have been stepping up their surveillance. belgium just said they raised they are alert level to a much higher level after these attacks and they are going to keep it there for who knows how long. >> reporting for us from london. still with us and michael kay. i want to start with you on this question of belgium as katie just reported they have the most per capita number of foreign fighters streaming into syria to fight with isis there. is there something particular about belgium not known as the most prominent member of the war on terror coalition. >> belgium has also by considering the small population has a pretty big muslim population there. there is only a tiny tiny fraction of that population that

has travelled. it's around 700,000 strong muslim community in belgium. we look at france over 5 million. that tiny fraction of the muslim population that has been radicalized and travelled. it is posing a big problem to belgium and other european nations. as i mentioned denmark and the netherlands and sweden are suffering from similar problems. it's not exactly -- it's a problem with belgium specifically but actually all across europe. we are seeing it actualizing now in these terror threats. >> and michael, regarding these raids specifically targeting katie said ten different houses being investigated immediate fireback when they went to this particular place. >> the job of the commanders in these raids is phenomenal in terms of the decision making

process, assessing that risk second by second, what the probability versus consequence is what their capability and their intent is. they may have all the intent in the world. they may want to blow themselves up and may not have the explosives to do it. what is really interesting here is trying to gauge to what extent these individuals are disenfranchised. we know the ideology on the right hand side we have the self-sacrificing missions those disenfranchised to the point where they are happy to strap a suicide vest on them or go into the supermarket and blow themselves up. that is the worst case scenario. that is what commanders are having to deal with. whatever the decision making process is whatever actions they are taking they have to mitigate that ultimate outcome. if they are targeting these individuals in their homes,

that's a good thing. they don't have hostages. and they are not potentially as much dangerous as they could be if they are let out on to an attack or if they are taking an opportunity target such as the jewish deli. going back to the conversation in the beginning, there is a real proactive stance here and it is a good thing. what will be difficult is making sure that they have the prerequisite amount of evidence when they go in in order to prosecute in a court of law cht if they don't have that then we see these people back on the streets again. >> i do want to ask the question in terms of disenfranchisement how much of that has to do with the wars in iraq and afghanistan. how much has to do with large immigrants into europe not finding place in societies. those are two separate things and two separate sources of disenfranchisement. they are not one in the same. >> they could be linked and may not be linked.

the question you asked is huge. we can talk for hours on this. it's a multi fasatted multilayered problem which intelligence communities and governments are trying to wrap their head around. on the one hand you've got our own foreign policy. when we went into afghanistan in 2001 we had the whole world behind us. the whole world was behind us. when we decided to stay and try to rebuild afghanistan of course the political, the economic security and lines of development that is where it started to get sticky. we then decided that saddam hussein was no longer our friend even though he had been our friend in the eight year war against iran and we opposed saddam hussein without a post war plan. we wiped out security forces with no security forces to put back in there. there was this space. that is where radicals can

metastasize. we can't ignore the social economic problems. we can't ignore the toxic imams spreading toxic ideology in various mosques. we can't ignore the jihaddests anding back from syria. there are so many issues and problems going on with this that i think you sort of have to compartmentalize and try to take baby steps because it is a huge problem. >> such a complex problem. we could go on and on about it. i want to go back to katie for a moment with new information regarding denmark. >> i wanted to add that denmark has what they call the per capita second most foreign fighters in syria and iraq second to belgium only. it also is a small country. in the scheme of things not that many people. they were the target of quite a lot of attacks back in 2006 after a paper there ran a few

cartoons about the profit muhammad. since then they have taken a different approach to trying to combat these people that were coming back these foreign fighters coming back trying to combat then carrying out violence in denmark or violence against any of their people. what they have done since then is they have re-introduced them into a reintegration program that allows people to find more value essentially in their lives back at home. they had given them cars, jobs. they have given them a reason not to go back and fight in those wars in syria and iraq. they said in 2013 there were a few dozen people fighting out there. in 2014 there was only one person that they know of.

it's not concrete that they have been able to stop anything but they have had success and haven't had major issues since that 2006 cartoon. a different way that one country in europe is approaching this matter. >> thank you very much. appreciate it. heather, i want to bring you back in here on this question. denmark has taken a different approach to trying to integrate its large immigrant community, many from north africa into their country. how much of what we are seeing is true radicalization as a result of groups like isis and al qaeda and how much are internal disintegrations and internal displacement in countries like france and belgium where you have a very large unintegrated population? >> i think the best way to think about it is that you have push factors and pull factors. so in these countries for decades it was the case that

people who had immigrated from the muslim world couldn't get the same kinds of education and the same kinds of jobs and weren't as welcome in certain places. you have the extreme case of germany where people can't get citizenship. that didn't result in the kind of mass violence and violence aimed at institutions of the state until you had the pull factors of extremist groups in the middle east and south asia that were created and then hyped by the perception that europe and the u.s. were attacking and killing muslims in those placess. so you had both the push and pull factors. frankly we have gotten very good at the visible end of the pull factors. so killing terrorist leaders, drone attacks, even the kind of tracking down and raids that you are seeing here. but very few countries have tried to do what denmark is doing. in britain there is a move to do the reverse and bar people from

coming back. we don't really know or there hasn't been a lot of willingness to talk about how to address the alienation. not even so much from being under class but of knowing that you're not quite as welcome as everybody else. that's just a huge problem of modern society that you can't solve in the name of terrorism alone. as michael said you have to work on a bunch of friends at the same time but you also have to ask yourself when does movement on one front hurt your ability to move on others. for example, if it is perceived that you are killing many, many innocent people in your wars or that you don't care about the societies you are present in then your efforts to say we really care about you living in france are maybe going to have a harder time being taken seriously. the things interconnect. >> in terms of pragmatic what european agents have to do pragmatically.

a lot of monitoring of the communities and what will lead to increased surveillance on specific communities. how much of that because i know a lot of what you guys did is monitor what is happening in social media monitor what the groups are saying about themselves. when you monitor the feeds is the organizing principle more about wars in iraq or syria or more about home grown al yniation? >> i think authorities need to go in multiple directions. go in retrospect and go historically. who did these individuals communicate with? they have a suspect in custody. he could be very well the key to figuring out this bigger picture. go backwards and start figuring out what kind of communications they have conducted with individuals whether inside belgium, inside europe or even all the way across in the middle east. the other part is that going forward while you are interrogating the suspect also check on their families. their families can actually might have intercepted certain

details that the authorities are not aware of. i think families are also absolutely important. i want to make one last comment. it is not just the muslim communities. there has been a lot of radicalized muslim converts who join the fight. isis al qaeda and others are trying to reach out to those individuals, as well. >> i want to thank our panel today. thank you all for your exper teses. much more on this coming up on msnbc. that wraps things up for "the reid report." i will see you back here tomorrow at 2:00 p.m. eastern. e an 810 fico score, thanks to the tools and help on experian.com. and your big idea is hot dogs shaped like hamburgers? nope. hamburgers shaped like hot dogs. that's not really in our wheelhouse... you don't put it in a wheelhouse. you put it in your mouth. get your credit swagger on.

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belgium. two suspects are dead a third badly wounded. it happened in a town of verviers about an hour's drive from brussels. witnesses described explosions and detonations. another suspect was arrested for illegal weapons trade. he claimed to have contact with haya hayat. he allegedly purchased weapons from a belgium arms dealer who later turned himself into police. at the white house president obama meets with david cameron tonight to discuss joint efforts to fight terrorism. let's get to katie in london with the latest. >> we know prosecutors just held a press conference and confirmed two people