what makes it an suv is what you can get into it. ♪ [container door closing] what makes it an nx is what you can get out of it. ♪ introducing the first-ever lexus nx turbo and hybrid. once you go beyond utility there's no going back. this morning, my question, can you call dibs on the presidency? plus the epidemic that's far from over and the debate over free speech. but first, fear and terror taking hold throughout the world. good morning. i'm melissa harris-perry.

today in belgium 300 armed troops have spanned out to guard against potential terror targets against attacks. they remain on high alert following the situation last week. a series of raids was conducted on thursday. one of which foiled a terror plot planned by a group of suspected jihadists. this was the scene thursday night in an eastern belgium city. you see the belgium counterterrorism police killed two suspects and arrested a third in a night raid on a cell of attorneys from syria who were planning a major imminent attack possibly against policebelgium. the suspects opened fire and police attempted to issue a search warrant. the raids of other locations led to detention of 13 additional people. the raid disrupted the eminent attack but the end result that

was under way for weeks and the terror plot does not appear to be linked to last week's violence in paris. but it highlights a heightened sensitivity in the wake of the attacks as nations rushed to respond to the threat from radicalized extremists with ties to terror networks in the middle east. president obama spoke yesterday about the scope of that threat in a joint press conference with david cameron. >> this phenomenon of violent extremism, the ideology, the networks the capacity to recruit young people this has me it's a sized and it is widespread and it is penetrated communities around the world. >> and this week, western europe acted against that extremism. belgium's decision to use troops

to reenforce police in the country's cities came on the same day the raids in five towns in and around paris targeted people who may have been linked to the kosher market gun. man and led to 12 arrests. it coincided with police action in berlin who used 250 officers raided 11 residences and arrested two men on suspicion of recruiting fighters. i want to turn to the latest developments on the story. nbc news correspondent ron allen is in paris following developments worldwide. dramatic pictures coming in over the past 12 hours. where are we really seeing the most activity? >> reporter: we're seeing a lot of activity in the muslim world, but let me start here in paris where it's sort of a typical saturday afternoon. you can hear some noise in the background. it's a demonstration going on but it's about women's rights. here in the plaza behind me, there are families, skateborders, things are calm.

that's saying a lot. because yesterday we started the day with a bomb threat and then a hostage situation, which are indications of how tense things are. police responding to those of course. around the world today and yesterday there are angry protests against the decision to publish an image of the prophet mohammed in iran, turkey. there were four people killed in a protest. that happened because police responded with tear gas because they were struggling to control the crowds there. one reason is because there were groups here that wanted to stage a protest against the magazine and were told they couldn't so they went to the streets any way. . there are police stations that have been set on fire. very dangerous situation. france has told its nationals who live there to stay indoors as a matter of safety. there's been a lot of this brewing over the past week. not a lot of attention has been

paid to it. a lot of people in the muslim world are angry and outraged that that image was put on the cover of the magazine. they feel it's provocation and they are speaking out about it. now we're hearing more and more about it. melissa, back to you. >> thanks to ron allen in paris. i want to turn to my guests here at the table, laura philanders founder of britt tv. and michael cay, foreign affairs correspondent and former senior british officer. i want to -- let me start with you. president obama said that the threat of terrorism has penetrated communities around the world. is that an accurate assessment of what's going on with sort of the global terror network? or has it always been present in places around the world? >>. that's a really good question. i think terrorism has always existed. i think terrorism in the context of globalization is something which is making the problem worse.

what i mean by globalization is the ability for you and me to jump on an airplane fly to europe travel and get into syria. that's easy to do now. if you rewind 50 years, not so easy. the ability to project through social media. now that there are internet networks in places like that there's ability to get their message out there. so i think globalization is an important part of this wholistic approach we need to take in countering this it threat. the big thing that we have to acknowledge is there is a fundamental difference between what people think freedom of speech is. if we look at the pakistan parliament, they passed a bill yesterday that said freedom of expression should not be misled as a means to attack. they have every right to have that belief. but if you look at the uk who

have had a show in the '90s, which was a puppet show that completely nailed global leaders, religious leaders, celebrities, if you look at private eye, which is the british e kwif elect of "charlie hebdo", if you look at the mora coen mayor, if you don't like it then pack your bags. there's a fundamental difference. >> i think you have laid on the table something that for me i am struggling with very much. this is part of why i'm asking the question about whether there's this new terrorism and whether it is about people being angry about sort of these values of civil libertarianism. in part because i think to frame it that way is to miss the ira, is to pretend the kkk is not terrorism, that home grown terrorism doesn't require a global network unless what we

really mean by terrorism is those scary people with a different religious and national background. i'd also encourage us to step back. if we want to look at what's me it's a sized, it's u.s. wars abroad. we just interviewed a reporter in the middle east and he said with four wars waging in the middle east, it would be surprise ing surprising if sparks didn't land in europe. when it comes to the question of scary fear -- >> i want to pause there for a second. just to say that -- because i'm starting to hear what the headline is that comes out of that. you are not making a claim, or perhaps you are, that america's foreign policy is responsible for the terrorist attacks against "charlie hebdo." >> there's no question we have a militarized society and nobody feel feeling more fear than muslim populations around the world in which whose countries these wars

are actually waging. let's not forget who has felt the brunt of the fear and whose lives have been most threatened in terms of detentions. i think it's been kind of a chilling indication of the quality of our public discourse that the biggest voice has come from the head of nato. who until he took over in october was the head for much of the last ten years has been the prime minister of norway was in charge when that horrendous terror attack by a white christian guy on the teenage camp claimed 77 lives and what did the people in the prime minister of that country come out of that saying, we need more openness, more democracy. i think this discussion about free speech is blurring democracy and discussion with just cartoons. >> that's exactly where i want to go when we come back.

is to ask that question about what they actually look like for people living in these states. support for free speech even in a country that does outlaw much speech.

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for foster children, big and small. bring your gift to any sleep train and help make a foster child's night a little cozier. not everyone can be a foster parent but anyone can help a foster child. last sunday more than 3 million people nearly 1.6 million of them in paris alone took to the streets of france in rallies of unity and support after last week's terror attacks. the paris rally brought together more than 40 world leaders who linked arms at the start of the the march and was joined by. other cities in europe and throughout the world, all of them repudiating the terrorism in france claiming the lives of 17 people including the 12 who died in president targeted

assault on the charlie hebdo newspaper. the rallying cry that's come to signify the saktnctity of free expression, this week the french made another demonstration of their support for the papers and principles. when they waited in lines at kiosks across france to buy a copy of the first to go on sale since the attacks, demand for the issue pushed "charlie hebdo" prep run up to 7 million. 4 million more than the publisher initially planned. they sold out within the first few minutes after the magazine went on sale. the latest cover depicts a cartoon image of the crying prophet mohammed holding a sign saying "i am charlie." it's a defiant statement against the paris killers who cited the

paper's caricatures of the prophet as justification for the attacks. but the cover is on the front for the mahmoud vast majority of muslim who is have no ties to terror but drew depictions as an insult to islam. protesters in pakistan expressed that opposition when they took to the streets to condemn the new issue and the rally out of respect for the prophet mohammed. it led a clash of police that left four people with gunshot wounds. and protests are coming this morning after they took a violent turn friday when one policeman and three civilians were killed. the protests against the issue offer counterpoint for the message about free speech offered by a unified nation. the idea to the right to free expression must be defended in

those who seek to silence by force. the message became mutt led when france followed the historic march by arresting 54 people including minors for that kind of speech. none of those arrested were linked to the attacks, but all of them broke a law that institutes harsh penalties or actions condoning or inciteing terrorism. an intoxicated man who was sentenced to four years in prison after he praised the acts of the gunman. a 22-year-old was sentence edd to a year in jail for posting a video that mocked the police officer who was kill eded in the attack. the most high profile was a controversial frenchman who will stand trial for a facebook post in which he said "tonight farce i'm concerned, i feel like charlie coubily.

he is known for having created an armed gesture that resembles a salute is a pender of hate for humor that was perceived as anti-semitic. joining me now is the social justice comedian and film maker and the author of "the birth of korean cool." thank you for being here. you spent a great deal of time living in france. when we hear in the u.s. context that france has a tradition or a commitment to free speech how accurate or inaccurate is that? >> it's important to point out a contextual difference between french and american free speech. the french constitution makes a

very important distinction that the government can curtail free speech in the event that it is required for national security. the u.s. doesn't have that kind of provision. so under these rules, the penalties apply are very consistent with french law. and you have to remember that in america, there's no threat of e te rest y'all invasion. it's unlikely that canada would invade us. you can actually get to africa between all of these land masses without flying. so it doesn't matter they are in a different situation. >> so i absolutely hear you, but part of what happens is i'm taken back to the point that laura made in the last block was this idea when it comes to a history of invasion across those spaces, europe's relationship to the very nations that we're now seeing this uprising and anger

is all being framed as religious. i keep wondering if islam is the identity or the religion of these, these are also post colonial peoples in living memory. and whether or not we're missing a political story as part of this. >> i mean absolutely. i don't think we know here in the united states we're not that familiar with a colonial history of the french. i was saying to laura during the break that i have been in france when there have been algerian tear gassing subway stations, so this is something that's not kind of new to the french. >> the debate is very ugly. i have to say on the day of the attack on the office in paris, the ferries, you can see them leaving. the population is very -- the population there is very strong but at the same time, that's a

city that a year ago elected a mayor member of the national front. this is the far right party, a guy who served bacon at events. has interrupted weddings because the woman is wearing a veil. france had this whole debate about the veil and banned veil wearing. so this stuff goes very deep. i have one other point. when you mention he was arrested for defending terrorism. if we had a law like that half the people in selma would have been arrested. >> absolutely. i have this presumption that my interests lie with the state. i want to play president obama yesterday with david cameron. something he said that piqued my

interest. >> as they work with us to respond to these circumstances, it's important for europe not to simply respond with a hammer and law enforcement and military approaches to these problems but there has to be a recognition that the stronger the ties of a north african or a frenchman of north african descent to french republic a sense of opportunity, that's going to be as important over time solving this it problem. >> they would not suggest that the solution is to become more like the french in the sense ha he might have said that it violence is learned from the french. on the one hand, i appreciate the president saying this can't be solved through a police crackdown alone. i but i wonder about the

european values are inherently good and we have to teach these other folks these other values. >> something that pops up for me is what the competing views are. how do you deter this threat that we are perceived to be seeing coming from north africa or from syria. for me it's generated by a government space. so is the deterrent increasing antiterrorism laws? is it drawing a final line on what freedom of speech is? is it having greater powers over taking citizenship away from someone? is it putting more troops on the streets? is it more covert approach that funds more resources to the intelligence communities? what i'm trying to highlight there is that it's a multifaceted approach and we should focus on them individually and try to work out how it contributes to that greater problem. it's the deterrent.

>> when we come back, i'm going to allow what you said sink in. so what is the problem and how might we think about addressing it? still there is so much more to come this morning including the issue of marriage equality. stay with us. ♪ ♪ with the incredible fuel efficiency of 38 mpg highway... ♪ ...you can feel like royalty in the nissan altima. ♪ now get great offers on the 38 mpg highway nissan altima. nissan, innovation that excites.

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and a lot helping you. technology that's with you always. this is our promise. it's never been better to wander because wherever you go, you'll find us doing everything we can, so you can. we're back. it was laid out for a set of questions if we have a problem, how do we address it? what's the multipronged approach? >> you have to remember that france is a country that was invaded by germany. they were forced to deport 70,000 jews. it's a different situation than when the u.s. has a terror threat. so they really can't do much about the fact that 56 people

were arrested. this has to happen in this kind of situation. there are four people who died. this is something that really could spread in a kind of contagion that would not happen in north america. >> i guess maybe i'm having an american reaction to that in the sense that sort of my civil libertarian impulse is you have to make it more open not less. when we drive down the street the only reason we don't constantly have head-on collisions is because we follow a set of rules that we believe in. you stop at the red light. to me that's what the implication has meant to do. it's to make us stop at the red light of harming one another. >> in america laws exist in a vacuum. in europe laws are based in history. so for example o.j. couldn't be

tried twice for the same crime. that was considered separate from the murder charge. in france if somebody is known to be a male actor that's been fined tens of thousands of euros in the past for hate speech i can understand why they would clamp down on him with what i agree is a very minor offense because they do take the whole person into context. france is a small town and america is a big city the small town knows who the people are and the troublemakers are. >> i think it's 18th century context. our constitutional norms are about our angst about these very nations. so as someone who practiced the ir rev rant work do i agree with the nasty anti-semitic hatred perpetrated here no.

>> i u think the french rules are extremely complicated and really hard to navigate. i would be afraid of saying anything in france because it might come off as something -- to say something might incite violence it's a really subjective line that could keep moving and you don't know where you stand. but i think in terms of solutions, what we have to really look at and i'm sympathetic to what obama said on this. there was a time in our nation's history where we thought it was okay to show menstruals and it was fine. we are completely fine with any representation of islam and muslims and that's something that i think will change. i think at some point in the future, we're going to look back at this time and can't believe we were showing muslims with hairy butts. i can't believe we were doing

that. >> what i'm trying to push towards is the idea is i thought we ought to have a set of moral or standards or ethical rules because then you can fight that. as you point out about the civil rights movement, there's a set of norms backed up by law about racial inequality. and you have to fight back against the laws and norms. >> it goes back to the comments made at the very beginning about global nature of our lives these days. part of this discussion just makes meso frustrated because i think we're having a conversation about free speech but arguing about the camo when we should be talking about the war. we also have fundamentalists exception lisms. one set of global rules for us and one set of global rules for the rest of you that i think is an important part of this picture. it's about policy in the state

as much about the players on the ground. we're just the grass being trampled by the elephants. the policy question here. >> we're going to take a quick break. i'm going to explain what an ungoverned space is and why it's seen as problematic. we come by almost every day to deliver your mail so if you have any packages you want to return you should just give them to us i mean, we're going to be there anyway why don't you just leave it for us to pick up? or you could always get in your car and take it back yourself yeah, us picking it up is probably your easiest option it's kind of a no brainer ok, well, good talk you show up. you stay up. you listen. you laugh. you worry. you do whatever it takes to take care of your family. and when it's time to plan for your family's future

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announcer ] fiber one. good job! still running in the morning? yeah. getting your vegetables every day? when i can. [ bop ] [ male announcer ] could've had a v8. two full servings of vegetables for only 50 delicious calories. i want to read to you from a statement from the pope weighing in on speech skpits limits. he says if my good friend says a curse word against my mother he can expect a punch. it's normal. you cannot provoke or insult the faith of others. you cannot make fun of the faith of others. proving he would not be willing to play a game of the dozens because you talk about people but it was an interesting idea for him there is a limitation at

what constitutes sacred for others. >> if someone says someone that is controversial, someone has the right to be able to counter that with what they think is right or wrong. what i find fascinating about these discussions is trying to draw a line of what is religious tolerance versus how you can arrest someone for inciting hatred or violence. i think when we're talking about the new laws that france imposed in november on hate speech whether that be verbal whether if charges you can get five years and a $90,000 fine or on the internet it's $120,000 seven years, or how you apply that law? that's the difficulty. when we're talking about this additional laws, we also have to think about consequences of implementing them. you're going to need increased resources. it's all implementing the law. how do you police that law?

that has a huge budget that comes with it, a huge man power requirement, a huge resource requirement and there are additional factors to the solution. >> that's the point that feels like the blindness. here you have a nihilism that seems to be emerging second generation immigrant population living in a state that's in a moment of economic recession and pulling back. then the answer would be more policing and more resources towards policing instead of openness. that feels like too much of o our history has taught us that's the wrong way to go. >> there's a 99% chance that all of these charges will be suspendedsuspend suspended. they didn't really imprison him. in terms of how would it be enforced, everything will be dropped. >> but to that point, there's expense get. ing to that point. >> american history is based on precedent, they look into the future. if we do this now, everyone will

want one and that's the logic. european law, french law is pace based on the past. muss the future i'm sure that will happen, but right now jew z are considered a minority. and europe never really recovered from the second world war. that's something that wasn't fought on our soil and we can't be ignorant of that. >> i take very seriously that there's an eminence of threat but i also suppose as a result of the eminence of its proximity, it's therefore necessary for these to be the very nations that lead us in seeing -- let me just say, we just saw multimillion person rally rallies presumably -- it's not like i'm trying to impose this from an american journalist

thinks there should be free speech. they are claiming there should be free speech. >> it's interesting. all the discussion in europe the french have stepped and back from anything resembling the patriot act. >> it rises in france and is ridiculed on the front page of "the new york times" this morning. >> free speech we are free to geart all of your speech all over the world and possibly -- >> i'm hard on the french. we have our theories about freedom. we're listening. >> we've got the record of the president actually demanding that the government of yemen keep an anti-drone journalist in jail. >> but as a comedian your ir rev rans would lead to action by the state. it's one thing to fear it would lead to action by individual

but by the state, do you fear that? >> not in the united states. i have to say that in france i don't know what i would feel like. for example, a few months ago, who is part of a nonhate group put up anti-muslim ads. and that was perfectly legal in the united states. did i find the ads appalling? absolutely, but she was able to do that and that's because that's protected. it's very clear. >> i do think the claims should be able to march through. i don't want them to. i would prefer they not, but do i think they have a right and the repression of that right would lead to a more dangerous situation, i do. >> when we organize to stop the march rather than pass rules.

>> when we look at the consequences of our actions, it was to show solidarity, which is fantastic. in order to implement change whatever it may be it has to have political bite. as soon as the political side gets involved, all sorts of controversy broke loose. people then go back and say how can these leaders take part in a freedom of expression march when back home they are -- >> should president obama have gone? the point that you just brought up about the ways in which those leaders led to hey, i haven't noticed free speech in your country. >> it seems like it's about to happen in france. i don't know when it's happening, which is it's going to be the country that holds the first against the killings in nigeria. there you're showing exactly the kind of global. consciousness to say we mourned

our dead in paris. but we're going to mourn the thousands slaughtered by boko haram. >> they kind of messed up and that's not going to be a popular statement. one thing they didn't do and i read an op-ed criticize inging this, is unlike in america when something like this happens and they say basically not all muslim hads -- the french community's relationship with islam is so complicated that even though there was a march they were not willing to distance themselves from the jihadists. there's a state of massive confusion. >> particularly i think we should always separate people from organizations. there were many french muslims or french citizens of islamic descent and north african descent who were standing as citizens and individuals against it. now what was happening organizationally is so much more to talk about.

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it's been nine months since nigerian schoolgirls were kidnapped by the terrorist group boek haram bringing attention to the brutal horror against. western education. the hash tag was tweeted 4 million times. for awhile celebrities were seen everywhere promoting the cause. but nine months later, more than 200 of our girls are still

missing. and boko haram is still terrorizing nigeria. they killed thousands of civilians in 2014 in attacks in schools and mosques. more than 10,000 people including fighters on both sides were killed last year in the conflict between boko haram and the nigerian military. boko haram has seized several cities, the largest of which have populations of 250,000 or more. it has begun retaliating against vigilante forces to defend their towns against boko haram. this month a massive attack on the string of towns on the shores of lake chad has brought international attention back to nigeria. on january 3rd boko haram fighters attacks a military base. after a gunfight of several hours, soldiers put down their weapons and fled leaving the area in the hands of boko haram

and they were looting and shooting men, women and children. the attack went on for four days. more than 10,000 people fled. hundreds of civilians were likely killed according to local officials and human rights groups, although it's impossible to know the exact number. the government. claims just 150 people were killed. many of them boko haram fighters but the government is known to underestimate casualties when it acknowledges them at all. their president was in the capital to meet with survivor who is escaped. it was his first visit to the area in nearly two years. join ing joining me now is the africa division for human rights watch. so it was initially them saying 2,000 people. now we're looking at reports as 150. why this discrepancy? >> it's been fickle to put a

number on the situation because we haven't been able to send any investigator os to that particular corner of northeast nigeria. we're relying on second and third hand reports. this is a place where cell phone coverage does not exist. so we have been relying on hearsay. there were largest mates and lower ones. i don't think the government itself can be trusted to give an accurate number. what would be needed would be the kind of investigation that human rights researchers do in terms of going to family members and talking to doctors and the like. we just haven't been able to do it. the area is very insecure. as you note, that reason and amnesty have relied on satellite imagery because it's the closest we can get. >> we have one of those images. that's sort of what we know. but clearly that doesn't quite get us to the kind of information we're used to having. our understanding coverage of what happened in europe. you make a point about the

government in not being able to trust them. a piece makes this point that the difference between france and nigeria isn't that the media care about one and not the other. it's rather that one country has an effective government and the other does not. this is part of the lack of response is because of a failed state. >> one of the most disheartening aspects of this is how ltle the nigerian government centrally seems to care what is happening in the north. they have not been constituency base for president good luck jonathan. nigeria is going into elections in a month. it's an area that historically has been quite marginalized in terms of its development. that feeds in some ways the insurgency that you're seeing. what we also know is that the insurgents are retaliating against abuses by the nigerian security forces themselves. they were hit two years ago by security forces.

interestingly, we did satellite assessment then and wrote a long analysis. they attempted to do their own and discredited ours but used all the wrong metrics and information. so they have even not contended with what is factual. >> so you just used a word i haven't heard a lot in this conversation, which is insurgents. is this terrorism or a civil war? >> that's a good question. i think it started out more as terrorism. i think we're now, and if i'm not mistaken the international community for the red cross has declared this as a noninternational armed conflict. in that respect, i would argue it's different than simply an act of terrorism. >> i started by talking about the hash tag and the 276. do we know anything about the 200 girls that are still missing? >> what we know is what we know from those who have escaped.

human rights in late october put out a report where our researcher interviewed approximately 40 girl who is had escaped from boko haram captivity and we learned a lot from those interviews. we have video of that if viewers want to see it. the girls described how they were forcibly take prn their homes or markets, how they were forced to marry, change their religion, were raped, forced to engaged in forced labor. when they came back. there was little social support for them and officials never bothered to interview them to find out what had happened. there's some valuable intelligence there. this speaks to how little people in the community trust the security forces and vice versa. that's been a a huge stumbling block in containing boko haram. >> is there any reason to believe that boko haram is connected to these other gloeshl

terrorist networks which are now impacting europe and where there's such anxiety? if the nigerians cannot deal effectively, is there a clear national interest on the part of european nations or even the u.s. in addressing this? >> we have been talking about the need for more regional and international cooperation with respect to boko haram. it does have a regional dynamic and agreement. and some of the neighboring countries are starting to put their forces together for the purposes of monitoring the border. that's intensifying and that's a good thing. the extent to which boko haram is related to other groups we don't know one of the deficits is how the group is funded and sourced. an international investigation, a panel of experts would be very very useful for that reason. the one thing we do know is boko haram is so strong at this point

it can overrun nigerian security forces and take their armed and the nigerians are accustomed to saying they have a strong and capable army but we're seeing the holes in that now. >> thank you for being here and at least helping us to understand this is what we can despite the deficit of intelligence out there about this issue. in our next hour governor mitt romney is back. he is talking about running again. also something that's back, the mhp concert series. more at the top of the hour.

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welcome back i'm melissa harris-perry. in 2008 after mitt romney left his job as massachusetts governor hoping for a bigger one rs the presidency of the united states, he lost in the primary dropping out of the race in february of that year.

like many normal e kneeminees before him, he ran again. and they chose him over rick santorum and rick perry. he was the one who earned the right to advance in a general election against president obama, where, yes, he lost the election, but from what so far as i can tell, he did not lose his right to participate in our democratic process. governor romney clearly remanins une did tered in his desire u to sit in the oval office. he's talking about the potential third bid. romney spoke friday night at the republican national committee's winter meeting in california. >> me i'm giving some serious consideration to the future but this i know. we can win in 2016 as a party. in the house, in the the senate

and in the white house if we communicate a clear vision of where we're taking this country, what we believe in. >> i may not get there with you, but i promise as a party, we'll get to the white house. the republican party has something of a history of turning to a standard bear who has hyped the presidential campaign trail before. arizona senator john mccain, the 2008 nominee, who defeated romney, had lost in the primaries in 2000 saying with president reagan lost to general ford in the primary and immediately became the hot candidate for the 1980 race after ford lost to carter. maybe you're thinking those were primary losers who went on to become nominees and president, not party nominees who lost the general and sought to be the nominee again. there's a case history for that scenario as well. richard nixon, the republican nominee who after losing to kennedy returned eight years later to win the nomination again defeating among others

george romney and ronald reagan and went on to win the white house. so yes, what romney is possibly about to attempt is possible if the republican establishment lets him. but backlash has been nothing short of astonishing. "the wall street journal" board wrote on wednesday that the question of former massachusetts governor will have to answer is why he would be a better candidate than he was in 2012. the answer is not obvious. conservative writers used a hollywood metaphor the problem is that romney for president is now an art-house film thinking it's a franchise and there's another market for a sequel when there's not. others have been quick to highlight his flaws from his previous run to connect to portions of the electorate allowing himself to be defined by the opposition. that all may be legitimate, but there is one criticism i'm going to take issue with. at least three prominent republicans including hopeful

rand paul, the senator from kentucky, criticized romney with variations on the phrase, he had his chance. murdoch also told his own fox news that, quote, he had his chance, he mishandled it. i thought he was a terrible candidate. this is the presidency of the united states. it's not a tee ball game. it's got. to be about democracy, not about turns. the notion of getting his or her turn is unhealthy for a process. whether it involves previous nominees like romney that's interesting, or legacies like george w. and jeb bush and the argument about his turn is nothing new as the "washington post" noted this week republicans have been using this argument about candidates dating back to 1892. they challenged the republican president benjamin harrison. make your case about mr. romney's politics where the plat porm he appears to be running on.

>> first, we have to make the world safer. second we have to make sure and provide opportunity for all americans regardless of the neighborhood they live in. and finally, we have to lift people out of poverty. >> make your judgment about all that but do not insult our process by suggesting it's about turns. joining me now founder of grit tv laura flanders and joe watkins, former white house aid. blake s this a fair critique that he's had his turn. he doesn't belong here, out you go. . >> i think there's a distinction between he's had his chance and it's his turn. so for example mitt romney had his chance. i think it's okay for republican voters to say we tried this guy, we think he's not a good candidate or would not be a great president. we dont think he would win the

white house. something else to happen though is in 2000 everyone said it was george w. bush's turn. he was the son of the president and everyone lined up behind him. that wrangles the idea that's undemocratic that it's his turn and we should rally behind him. i agree this system where e elites and donors and money decides who can run and can't. run is completely perverted towards our democracy. people have seen what he can offer and don't want that. >> but isn't every single candidate, because the notion that he has to prove he's better than 2012 seems to be false. what he has to prove is he's better than whomever he's running against. both in the primary and the general. so even if he wasn't good enough to beat president obama doesn't mean he might not be good enough to meet the field. >> it's a good will to make

speeches to committees and the like. but the donors will really give you a sense of how much they believe in you. this is going to be a billion-dollar race. this is not for the faint of heart. money has to be raised. you have to have a campaign organization in place. you have to not only win iowa but new hampshire without missing a beat and be ready for super tuesday. you need money. >>. now you said something that rangels my concern about democracy. whatever the discourse about turns that the reality is he only gets a third turn because of money. that if you're a young state senator senator, you better. make it on that first one, not that he didn't raise tons of money, but that part of what allows a second turn, a third turn, a fourth turn is the money. >> that's what's so dysfunctional about the political process. it used to be back in the '60s you'd go around and meet with the party chairman and that was the invisible primary. now it's you're going to wall street board rooms and want to

get enough superpac people to propel you forward. they lasted for so long in 2012 because they had superpac money behind them. now we're in. an arm's race in terms of money. there's so many candidates. the problem is they are campaigning by trying to woo wealthy donors. they are not trying to appeal to voters. >> it doesn't mean we have more democracy. but we have dibs and donors. it's not going to be a billion-dollar race. we have a society where certain people have to -- they get to have a turn for the reasons you described. and as long as we have a situation where the 95% are all of the income generated in the recession, the rest of us don't have a chance to make it into that 1%, we're going to have people that don't ever have a turn or dibs or any say. >> which makes mr. romney's

preservation even more interest. ing last night. i want to go to the control room. do we have the sound of mitt romney talking about poverty as part of what he wants to discuss? >> we shall listen to it. or we will wait and listen to it later. that's part of what he talked about. >> it's totally fascinating. he's talking about cracking down on poverty but when you talk about this process, when you're talking to billionaires if you have one billionaire thanks to superpack superpac superpac superpacs, that can get you all the way through. they are meeting with billionaires and that's what the process is about. one other sick thing about this that we have to say to call out the press in this, it's not just you need all the money in order to run and be part of the forums, but the press confirms credibility on candidates. if they have lots of money. they have raised. >> it's how we figure out who is really in this race. so let me ask a strategic

question. presume there's something left to democracy. it's sort of been a truism for people who are in the trenches of this. part of what you need as a candidate, people don't have ideas about -- some negative some positive doesn't have to be high positive i haven't made a decision yet so you can teach them over the campaign. what you can buy is more information. so when we come back, i'm going to ask whether either one of the candidates talking about dibs and turns, mr. romney or mrs. clinton, are people who we could still learn something about or whether or not we have our mind totally made up about these two. sunday dinners at my house... it's a full day for me, and i love it. but when i started having back pain my sister had to come help. i don't like asking for help. i took tylenol but i had to take six pills to get through the day. so my daughter brought over some aleve. it's just two pills, all day! and now, i'm back!

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turn to run for president republicans are hardly alone. . the gop primary is shaping up to be a lot more open than the one the democrats will have in 2016. this is thanks to the virtual coronation many expect former secretary of state hillary clinton to receive if she chooses to run for president. given the overwhelming establishment support already on record as being ready for hillary, what will it take to defeat the former secretary of state in the primary? when has that ever happened? the idea there may not be much of a debate because of the overwhelming sentiment that 2016 is hillary's turn means the democrats will not have a chance as political parties to have a true debate on where the party stands. 2008 allowed for both parties to slug it out. on the democratic side we saw substantial debate about policy on the war in iraq and engaging in foreign leaders on the

individual mandate as a part of health care policy voter hs a choice. not the candidate they insisted had a turn. one of the overwhelming themes working against senator obama was that it was not his turn. so i guess part of what i'm wondering is whether mitt romney getting in the race given the critiques opens the field widener a way that what we're seeing with hillary clinton playing on the edges of it is that it seems to be narrowing the field. >> it's all about message. for republicans, money is important. but at the end of the day it's a message. if you raise a lot of money and can't win a campaign what good is it? if they have a candidate who only wins, we lose again. whoever the nominee is this time and whoever is going to stand as candidate, will be the person that is talking to everybody and winning african-americans,

winning latinos, women, young people, people winning the lgbt community. every vote matters. you can't not exclude any group if you want to speak to america and win in 2016. >> now we have some of that sound. let's see if he sounds like what you think he'd need to sound like. let's take a listen. >> under president obama the rich have gotten richer, income inequality have gotten worse and more people in poverty than ever before under this president. his policies have not worked. their liberal policies are good every four years for a campaign but they don't get the job done. >> i don't know what is happening. >> we are the 99%. he's going to launch his reelection campaign. >> let's take him seriously for a moment. it's easy for us to say that but let's take seriously the possibility he could say who have greater credibility than me to address this question because nothing at stake. i'm rich so i'm the guy.

>> why there should be a democratic primary because you made a a good point. usually the democratic primary is wide open and chaotic and the republican party is usually a a bit more predictable. but this year there's a lot of questions about hillary clinton. her positions on issues like income inequality. she's been on the wrong side of that issue in many ways. all the issues about use of force abroad she's been more hawkish. there's a lot of issues she should answer all those questions. they are going to be asked of her unless she has a real primary. everyone would benefit including potentially hillary from there being more of a primary. >> i love and agree with everything you said. i take issue with the real primary thing. there are people who are running. if we are pretend that that doesn't matter, that's where i

take issue. i don't think she's running, but if she does i'm not worried about her getting attention. we feed into this if we say it's not a real primary and don't cover these candidates and try to have this debate with them. >> let many ask about a name you didn't. say, which i would think is normally presumptive. there's a vice president of the united states. who has some credibility on the issue of income inequality who does the joe is everybody's friend, he sometimes says foot and mouth sort of things but we have had presidents who have done that before. where is there dead silence on my guy joe? >> you just heard more of it. >> biden, the vice president. >> he could be a credible candidate if he chooses to run. the question becomes is he going to choose to run. he's run before. he first ran in 1988. but he would be a credible

candidate for democrats if he decides to to run. he has a lot to say. he has positions that are very well known and regarded by people in both parties. >> i'm sitting here with qualms because we have been making fun of the guy who keeps running time after time and losing. . at the local level, there's a lot to be said when it comes to politics. it's important somebody tries. so we do want political debate or discussion in the public arena in a way that does a disservice to the actual process. in terms of politics hillary clinton, what did she have to say about ferguson? we have to talk about who has the capacity to mobilize people on the ground. what made the difference for obama is he said all sorts of nice things. >> you're not allowed to do this at the end of the block to

launch a critique on president obama. he also passed health care reform that president clinton didn't. and he spent a lot of time rolling back things that were clinton-era like. doma and don't ask don't tell. when the guy was currently president is running against the record of the guy who -- >> he won the nomination -- >> you can't take aca away. she's out of here. >> thank you for being here. after the break, the supreme court has been kind enough to give us a reason to get back at the table. it's the finest talking about marriage quality when we come back. if i can impart one lesson to a new business owner, it would be one thing i've learned is my philosophy is real simple american express open forum is an on-line community, that helps our members connect and share ideas

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saturday mornings appreciate when big news comes on a friday afternoon. this week did not disappoint. this one is huge. the u.s. supreme court is poised to make history on one of today's biggest civil rights issues. now that it has agreed to decide whether gay and lesbian cupouples should be allowed to marry in all 50 sates. same-sex marriage is legal in 36 states and washington, d.c. 70% of americans live in places where gay couples can legally wed. the court is taking up cases for kentucky, michigan, ohio and tennessee as it decides whether the constitution requires states to give marriage licenses to same-sex couples and whether states must recognize same-sex marriage legally performed in other states. the attorney general says they will file a friend of the court brief in these cases supporting marriage e equality. he says quote, it is time for our nation to take another critical step forward to ensure the fundamental equality of all

americans, no matter who they are, where they come from or whom they love. one of the cases that the court will rule on involves a michigan couple who between them have four adopted children. >> we set out for a goal and that goal was equality for our family. we are proud that we are affecting so many other families. we saw something that was wrong and we decided we needed to make it right. and to anybody else what i'll say to you is stand up for what you believe in because that's what we're doing. >> arguments will be heard in april in the final decision is expected by the end of the supreme court's term in june. but there are already clues to how the justices will rule. joining me now is a professor of constitutional law at nyu school of law and author of "speak now." so back in 2013 there were just

a handful of states that provided marriage equality. justice scalia said by formally declaring anyone opposed to same-sex marriage the majority armed well every challenge to a state law restricting to its definition. is he right? >> i think he is. he's funny how he keeps doing this because remember in 2003 he wrote a blistering decent saying this made it inevitable. he keeps feeding talking points to the other side. as you also remember in the opinion, chief justice roberts takes a more damage control interpretation of the majority opinion. where he says in his decent this is only about the federal government's definition of marriage. but history has proven scalia right. many of the states have that have flipped have used his logic. not directly quoting the

passage, north to reach a decision. >> we're talking about 18 months. the speed with which this happens can give it that feel of inevitability. a colleague suggests we should maybe -- in part because taking it up has been both celebrate ued on the side of pro marriage equality but also celebrated by those who are like great, the court will step in and stop this runaway train of equality. >> i understand we need to be temperate about this and i'm not the kind of person who says the world only spins forward and there's history that's a progress narrative. i understand the cautionary note there. but i do think in this instance the reason we have seen so much change is that gay. people have just come out and it's basically informational identity and you can't unring that bell. so many people have come out in society that people now know and have lived with same-sex couples

raising children. and it's much like don't ask, don't tell. it's easy to demonize gay people when there are no gay people visible in the military because they get kicked out. once you see living breathing gay people in the military, the military yawned and moved on. that's what people have done with the marriage context as well. >> so i just want to come off the individual decision just a second. it's a funny argument because if we think about the proximity that sometimes family relations, the closeness in which african-americans and white africans live edd in the south for most of american history, the idea that proximity would breathe something other than content and a desire for inequality. it's interesting it would operate in this way around public opinion for gay men and lesbians who come out and have this identity. it's been true around civil rights. >> i think it's a great point.

unfortunately for me it has everything to do with whether or not they are in your family or not. in that gay context, it used to be the supreme court had a montra for groups that were vulnerable in society. there's a 1980 article in the harvard law review that said it's anonymous who are vulnerable. it's not black people it's gay people. but i side with the earlier supreme court formulation because i think what has happened is that and i think we'll be talking about this with the voting rights act later, if you're able to say i can live my entire life without coming into contact with these individuals, i do not have to rub elbows with them, it's a different situation from the kind of the scenario where she comes up to her father and there's a gay person in every extended family so the

family has to decide whether or not it's going to privilege -- throw the family member under the bus. we have had tragic stories where families have done that. but i think the difference in between the two contexts is why it's moved much more quickly which remains stalled is the notion of anonymous, coming out in society of every family in america. >> a little bit more on the question of law and fairness. weaver boing to talk about section four of the voting rights act. apparently the gop in the house thinks there's no need to fix that. ring ring! progresso! i can't believe i'm eating bacon and rich creamy cheese before my sister's wedding well it's only 100 calories, so you'll be ready for that dress uh-huh... you don't love the dress? i love my sister... 40 flavors. 100 calories or less. (son) oh no... can you fix it, dad? yeah, i can fix that.

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good job! still running in the morning? yeah. getting your vegetables every day? when i can. [ bop ] [ male announcer ] could've had a v8. two full servings of vegetables for only 50 delicious calories. this week house chair representative bob goodlot spoke to reporters about the voting rights act. in a 2013 decision the supreme court invalidated section four

ruling to remove a key part of the vri requiring jury dictions with history of discrimination to get preclearance before changes to their voting laws can go into effect. it was not necessary for congress to fix the voting rights act. he said to this point, we have not seen a process forward that is necessary it to protect people because we think the voting rights act is providing substantial protection in this area right now. he added that the supreme court found that instances of discrimination were very old. from its signing until the supreme court decision congress had support the law amending it four times, most recently in 2006 when it had nearly unanimous bipartisan support. the congressman even voted for it himself. now more than 18 months after the court's decision despite bipartisan support for strengthening the voting rights

act could only make the gop only popular popular, the chair is saying it's fine. the panel is back. what do you think? it's all good. since the decision has the voting rights act continue to operate to protect the rights of voters? >> no and anyone who has been paying attention would know that. there's either ignorance or they don't want to admit the problem. if you look at what's happened since the decision north carolina months after the decision passed the most sweep sweeping set of voting restrictions in the country. that law is in effect because the supreme court got it into the act. it has been struck down twice as z a poll tax on two different occasions in federal courts. . that's now in effect because of the gutting of the voting rights act.

nearly after the states in the country have passed voting restrictions since 2010. does that sound like a situation in which the voting rights act is not needed? in some sense the voting rights act is needed now more than ever since 1965. we're in a situation where the support for it is at its lowest level. congress even though the need for it is at its highest. >> what you're saying was for the oddest part of the decision. this discourse on the part of the justices that when we look at what has happened since 1965 since the implementation of the act, we can see this enormous improvement in access to the ballot. therefore, we no longer need this formula. yet at the same time, also there was language about the problem is that discriminatory accounts just happening in these counties because we can see it in the north. so we're going to do away the with the formula altogether. i wonder about the nature of the legal reasoning there. politics is all up, but is that good legal reasoning?

>> i was a big opponent of that decision but if i were to try to reinstruct what the argument was. the people you're penalizing are the wrong people. we have to treat all the states the same. you can't punish states and tarnish the reputations as being bad actors forever. but the problem, there are several problems. that one is saying that if your kid came home from school and raised my grade, you don't have to go to school anymore. it's not this notion we have made progress. it doesn't mean we have made enough progress. the other issue is the talking point on the other side is congress can fix this. this congress is not going to do anything. the supreme court knew that. >> they knew that at the time they made this. >> there's something about throwing this to congress that's disingenuous. >> you have a new piece that

talks specifically about the legacy of king. in part because popular culture is thinking about king with the the new "selma" film. is that actually part of the problem that if i watch "selma", that's not what's happening. there aren't dogs. i keep wondering how do we make the point that these voting restrictions are tangible and important even if they don't look like annie lee cooper trying to get registered to vote in alabama. >> that's why i'm writing a book about the history of voting right rights to tell the story of what happened after the marges and engage the history. chief justice roberts said history didn't end in 1965. voting discrimination didn't end either. it's morphed now. the voter i.d.s, they are not the same. there's a different variation. but that doesn't mean they are any better.

so we're in a new form of voter discrimination. they have refined the tactics to try to get them through. that makes it even more important to engage with voter discrimination today. that means the solution couldn't be to get rid of it, it should be to strengthen and modernize it. not just throw it autoaltogether. >> isn't the other problem if it has gone to congress, it's gone to elected officials who have an incentive because of how lines are drawn and how people have been elected to seep the electorate relatively small. how do you create an inent sieve to broaden the electorate to the very people who will likely throw them out. >> especially given that as a clip showed, they have plausibility deniability. the key point is one that ari made which is to say that section four and five of the provision for coverage, essential ly

essentially an attempt to battle the idea. in 1965 the idea was you were wrestling with a shape shifter so section two wasn't enough because whenever you brought a lawsuit, which is incredibly cumbersome took tons of money, tons of time. all the state would do is flip it to something else. so what she was saying is the reason she froze the status quo and required those states to ask permission from the federal government before they change anything about the procedures is because we're battling a high bra here. they are. it's just different forms of voter suppression that are going on. so section four and five they are more needed right now than ever. >> we're going back to the situation before 1965. you can only challenge these laws after many many many lawsuits. i was going back and looking at my notes. before the selma to montgomery march, they filed four lawsuits

against. the literacy tests. still couldn't get it thrown out. you keep challenging this thing in court. keep trying to get it thrown out. that's why we needed these states to have to clear with the federal government to stop voting discrimination once and for all. >> it does seem that the current attorney general is determined to sprint to the finish. he's doing all kinds of things. what could the doj take aggressive action on in this moment given it looks like section four is not going to get in. >> they have taken aggression action. . they have sued north carolina. they have sued texas. they have joined lawsuits in wisconsin and ohio. the supreme court has not been sympathetic to those arguments. they stayed all these decisions and approve edd the new voting restrictions. this is going to come back to the court. the worries of the makeup of the current court are going to further look at the rights act. >> so they are go to likely go for marriage equality at the

same time they are gutting the vote. that feels hard to reconcile from a political perspective just because so many of the world of politics are on the same side. >> i think ari hit it on the head talking about second discrimination discrimination. under law i can show you a statute that says gay people are not allowed to marry. i can't that says black people are not allowed to vote. i can show you a lot of things that voter i.d. have an impact. >> also that's potentially a caution to the marriage equality movement battling because we have truly changed opinions for the world of people who might not be as nerdy. i love it. thank you to the panel. still to come this morning, it's been a long time since we have had one, but the mhp concert series is back. the world is filled with air. but

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protesters with a rallying cry of black lives matter continue to hold demonstration ace cross this country. thursday in boston 29 people were arrested after their protest shut down sections of interstate 93 during morning rush hour. the protesters changed themselves to barrels and pipes. a group of musicians in new york

city will perform in a freedom concert in response to the nonindictments in the cases involving michael brown and eric garner. the ideas inspired one-time aspiring opera singer coretta scott king whose husband, the late martin luther king, will be celebrated on monday. but we recognize this group of musicians as our foot soldiers of the week. here to tell us is the organizer of the event, joe chappell. what's happening in the movement now that requires this? >> first of all, good morning. one of the reasons we decided to have this concert because as you mentioned, the non-indictments of michael brown and eric garner -- what has happened is that over the last few months a lot of my colleagues -- we've been very active on social media talking about how there is not very much going on in the music community and how we wanted to

do something that was formal and that would raise awareness, political awareness. and so that was the primary reason for putting on this concert. the other thing that we wanted to do was we intentionally chose all black men for this performance because we wanted to present a positive image of black men which we find is lacking in media these days. >> not only positive but i thought there was something kind of lovely and almost subversive about the idea that the language we're using to talk about this in addition to black lives matter is "i can't breathe," eric garner's final words. and yet breath is such an important part of the kind of work you all are doing here. >> absolutely. one of the things -- music has this power that goes beyond spoken words. and so it makes absolute sense that over the years music has

become so connected to political movements. if you look over history, a movement really isn't a movement until there's some music, till it has a soundtrack, as it were. and so we are merely taking our place in a long line of musicians over history who have chosen to use their power of communicating with others to effect political change. >> a movement isn't a movement until it has a soundtrack. >> absolutely. >> i feel like i want that in a t-shirt or a hat. a movement isn't a movement until it has a soundtrack. you all were practicing and are going to sing for us a song about freedom. there is something about the word "free" when it is sung as opposed to just spoken. >> one of the things i was thinking about today is how timely it is that we're doing this particular song because the words -- the text of the song is "oh freedom over me before i be

a slave, i be buried in my grave." and in light of recent events in france with "charlie hebdo," one of the things that the late editor of "charlie hebdo," stephane stephane said, i'd rather live on my -- die on my feet than live on my knees. >> you guys will now perform for us "o freedom" reminding us a movement must have a soundtrack. ♪ o freedom o freedom ♪

♪ o freedom over me ♪ ♪ and before i be a slave ♪ ♪ i'll be buried in my grave ♪ ♪ and go home to my lord and be free ♪ ♪ o freedom o freedom ♪ ♪ o freedom over me ♪ ♪ and before i be a slave ♪

♪ i'll be buried in my grave ♪ ♪ and go home to my lord and be free ♪ ♪ free ♪ ♪ there will be singing ♪ ♪ there will be singing ♪ ♪ there will be singing over me ♪ ♪ and before i be a slave ♪ ♪ i'll be buried in my grave ♪ ♪ and go home to my lord and be free ♪ ♪ free ♪ ♪ o freedom o freedom ♪

♪ o freedom over me ♪ ♪ and before i be a slave ♪ ♪ i'll be buried in my grave ♪ ♪ and go home to my lord and be free ♪ ♪ go home and be free ♪ >> joe chapell, malcolm, brendan and korlin reminding us that black lives matter. they'll be performing tomorrow night at 6:00 p.m. at the

cathedral of st. john the divine right here in new york city. and that is our show for today. we ask you to come back tomorrow, we'll talk about the largest transfer in history and a little bit about the oscar nominations. come on back tomorrow morning, 10:00 a.m. eastern. right now, "weekends with alex witt." ameriprise asked people a simple question: in retirement, will you have enough money to live life on your terms? i sure hope so. with healthcare costs, who knows. umm... everyone has retirement questions. so ameriprise created the exclusive confident retirement approach. now you and your ameripise advisor.... can get the real answers you need. start building your confident retirement today. if you're running a business legalzoom has your back. over the last 10 years we've helped over one million business owners get started. visit us today for legal help you can count on to start and run your business.

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